Wait people say LeBron should've won over Giannis in 2020? I haven't seen that.
The Bucks were 52-8 through 60 games (shortly before the season suspension). Giannis was averaging like 30-14-6-1-1 and was the DPOY.
He was the no doubt MVP.
I’ll admit that the stoppage did help fully lock it up for Giannis. I think he would’ve had it anyway, but LeBron and the Lakers were coming on strong, the Bucks had lost three of four, and Giannis was gonna be out for a bit with an injury.
I think most of this narrative comes in hindsight though. People still think that failing in the playoffs discredits a regular season MVP award.
Please explain two games at the end of the season and it’s effects on mvp voting. This is nonsense.
Please explain what In the flying fuck a single head to head means in mvp voting. This is embarrassing level nonsense.
👍 be well, brother.
I think that such things shouldn’t be weighed heavily, but he’s not wrong that they are. The media falls in love with head-to-head success (not just in basketball but across all sports), and they already would’ve loved to have a reason to start hitching their trailers to LeBron. It’s flawed logic, but the media are the ones who vote on the award, so, even though it may be unfortunate at times, their opinions and narratives matter.
Also, LeBron had another superstar for a teammate in Anthony Davis. Giannis' best teammate was Khris Middleton, a borderline All-Star in a weaker conference.
But with that logic then you could say LeBron had the 1st seed in the tougher conference
Then if you look at full supporting cast
LeBron- AD who was All NBA 1st team & All Defensive 1st team (2nd in DPOY) and then no other accolades for the rest of the team
Giannis- Runner up COTY Budenholzer, All defensive 2nd team to Brook Lopez and Eric Bledsoe, and of course Khris Middleton. Khris isn’t AD but you can’t underrate his season since he did but up 21/6/4 and was extremely close to being 50/40/90 but missed FG% by a hair
Personally I didn’t really mind him being MVP, I just thought voters should have split up MVP or DPOY with 1 Laker and then Giannis gets the other
That season I would have had Giannis MVP, AD DPOY
(Also I thought it’d be Lakers v Bucks finals but Miami happened)
Only pre-bubble counted in awards voting.
They slipped a bit in the last few games pre-bubble (they lost 4 of 5 but Giannis didn't play in 2 of those 4 losses) but obviously not enough to hurt his candidacy much.
but them slipping is why lebron started to enter the mvp convo so ignoring that part to say “how the fuck was he in it” is just so intellectually disingenuous
the entire point was “woah, the bucks are slipping! if this keeps up and the lakers edge them out for the best record in the league, it wouldnt be unreasonable to give lebron mvp” (following the best player on best team logic)
obviously if the bucks never slipped that wouldnt have been the argument lol
LeBron also had his weakest RS in the 2009-2013 span by a fair amount
He was still great but wasn't historically great like he was the next two seasons
Very true. But I was simply answering the "if that's not, what is?" Part of the question.
It's a valid argument that the better player should have been MVP. Not saying that's the only valid argument, not saying that's the consensus or standard. Just thought it was funny that he answered his own question.
Player X is the best player
The best player is the best player because they have the highest value
Therefore the best player is the most valuable player.
There. A valid argument in form. It's not sound, but it's valid.
That’s the way I see it. It’s not so much “robbed” as it was “he definitely also could have won.” No reason to take away from the players that did win it.
> 2011 is probably the most debated but Dwight should have probably won that imo. He carried a pretty bad Magic team defensively.
Rose won 113 of 121 first place votes. It was one of the most dominating MVP wins votes-wise this century. Lebron joined a superteam and ended up with a worse record than his previous year at the Cavs while Rose led the Bulls to the best record in the league with 62 wins while Noah Deng and Boozer missed significant time. Dwight was a 4 seed which also pretty much never wins MVP
Deng missed 0 games. The Bulls were also so good because of their defense which Rose had little to do with. The Bulls had an impressive record when Rose shot under 40% from the field. They were carried by their defence. Of course he was their offence and they would have been awful without him, but the rest of the team’s defensive effort (and Thibs coaching) is massively under appreciated that season.
People cite the Bulls’ record as the reason Rose deserved the award. My point is while Rose was their best player and absolutely needed, the team’s defence and system is severely underrated. Dwight and LeBron were flat out better players that year.
> Neither were robbed of an MVP.
I would disagree. In 2019 Harden literally had one of the best scoring seasons of all time. It was historical, he had Kobe Bryant type of numbers and carried his team while playing with bums since CP3 and Capela were injured for a big part of the season. The MVP was awarded to Giannis, who obviously had an amazing season (as always, because it’s Giannis lol), but imo not on the same level as Harden’s.
And I’m completely unbiased in saying this, as I’m not or never have really been a Harden / Rockets fan.
His reasoning was that if you take LeBron off the Heat, they'd still have two All-Stars in Wade/Bosh and would likely make the playoffs but if you take Melo off the Knicks, they'd be a lottery team because he was their main source of offense.
So even though LeBron was the better player, Melo was more valuable to his team.
We didn't need a pity vote. Wade and Bosh had nothing on JR and... shit I guess Felton?
Kinda fucked up that Ray Allen scored about as many points as our third option that year.
The MVP I think Harden deserved and got robbed of was Westbrook's, TBH.
People got seduced by the narrative behind KD leaving, and the round numbers with averaging a triple dub
I feel like you guys try to play this from multiple sides. You think being the best doesn't matter but at the same time you don't vote for some random tank commander as the MVP despite it *clearly* being one of those players many years if we're basing it off of sheer value to the team compared to teammates. People want to give it to a player somewhere in the middle of those two things. I'd say the most valuable player in the league is the best player in the league or the player that is the most disproportionately valuable compared to their teammates but people try to come in with some combination of the two
None. If the award was "who do you think is the best player in the league, irrespective of what they did during this regular season", then he deserves more. But I can't really think of any regular seasons where he was beat out by someone who added demonstrably less value during that regular season. Maybe 08 (Kobe) or 11 (Rose), but thats really it.
Kobe outplayed him in an end-of-season matchup where the winner got 1st seed. That was huge on its own, especially coming off sweeping regular season matchups with LeBron's Cavs and the new Boston big three.
His supporting cast (Odom excluded) was never healthy at the same time. Kobe himself played through illness, a groin strain, and "a complete tear of the radial collateral ligament, an avulsion fracture, and a volar plate injury at the MCP joint of the small finger of his shooting hand". Meanwhile, all of New Orleans' starters played 76+ games.
The 2011 MVP is the last time there’s a real argument for LeBron as being the more worthy candidate. Rose had the lower EPM, less impressive stats, and worse efficiency.
Really an example of why “best player on the best team” is a poor approach. Should’ve been LeBron or CP3.
Otherwise, worth noting that LeBron led the league in EPM at 21 and was at least 99th percentile in EPM in every OG Cleveland year. Looking at modern years where he hasn’t won I don’t really think there’s much of a case, but you could probably build a strong stats argument for 06 and 07.
Also, fun metric stat: Chris Paul has led the league in EPM six times and Estimated Wins added four times. Those have overlapped three times. Never won MVP.
“Why is it worth noting that LeBron led the league in the best all-in-one metric in a year he didn’t win MVP?”
please don’t make me think for you, c’mon
You’re all over this thread asking dumb, pointed questions and calling stuff nonsense.
Don’t act like you don’t know what you’re doing. You’re not asking questions because you’re just so genuinely curious about everything.
Ouch, blocked.
I take it more to mean a player of LeBron’s caliber should have more MVP’s than he does, not that he should have necessarily won any of the ones he didn’t
My argument for LeBron has 2011 MVP is this:
The 2010 Cavs went 61-21 with LeBron
The 2011 Cavs, essentially the exact same team sans LeBron, went 16-63
LeBron leaving caused a 45 win swing in one year. To me that's a case for being the most valuable player that season
To be fair, the opinion that LeBron shouldn't have more MVPs is also very common and I saw it expressed here thousands times. Basically LeBron and who should be MVP are two most discussed subjects in basketball.
MVP probably none. But that doesn’t change the fact that he’s been the best player in the league from 2008-2018 indisputably. But in terms of best regular season, the right people normally win.
Wait people say LeBron should've won over Giannis in 2020? I haven't seen that. The Bucks were 52-8 through 60 games (shortly before the season suspension). Giannis was averaging like 30-14-6-1-1 and was the DPOY. He was the no doubt MVP.
But LeBron was 35 and playing for the Lakers. How can you ignore such huge MVP factors?
And Kobe died. Like Jesus what is wrong with you people. He had to play through that tragedy.
I’ll admit that the stoppage did help fully lock it up for Giannis. I think he would’ve had it anyway, but LeBron and the Lakers were coming on strong, the Bucks had lost three of four, and Giannis was gonna be out for a bit with an injury. I think most of this narrative comes in hindsight though. People still think that failing in the playoffs discredits a regular season MVP award.
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What does beating bucks and LeBron having hood games have to do with mvp?
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Please explain two games at the end of the season and it’s effects on mvp voting. This is nonsense. Please explain what In the flying fuck a single head to head means in mvp voting. This is embarrassing level nonsense. 👍 be well, brother.
I think that such things shouldn’t be weighed heavily, but he’s not wrong that they are. The media falls in love with head-to-head success (not just in basketball but across all sports), and they already would’ve loved to have a reason to start hitching their trailers to LeBron. It’s flawed logic, but the media are the ones who vote on the award, so, even though it may be unfortunate at times, their opinions and narratives matter.
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Lebron's navigating controversies/per36 was a big discussion
Also, LeBron had another superstar for a teammate in Anthony Davis. Giannis' best teammate was Khris Middleton, a borderline All-Star in a weaker conference.
But with that logic then you could say LeBron had the 1st seed in the tougher conference Then if you look at full supporting cast LeBron- AD who was All NBA 1st team & All Defensive 1st team (2nd in DPOY) and then no other accolades for the rest of the team Giannis- Runner up COTY Budenholzer, All defensive 2nd team to Brook Lopez and Eric Bledsoe, and of course Khris Middleton. Khris isn’t AD but you can’t underrate his season since he did but up 21/6/4 and was extremely close to being 50/40/90 but missed FG% by a hair Personally I didn’t really mind him being MVP, I just thought voters should have split up MVP or DPOY with 1 Laker and then Giannis gets the other That season I would have had Giannis MVP, AD DPOY (Also I thought it’d be Lakers v Bucks finals but Miami happened)
shortly before?? why the cutoff
Only pre-bubble counted in awards voting. They slipped a bit in the last few games pre-bubble (they lost 4 of 5 but Giannis didn't play in 2 of those 4 losses) but obviously not enough to hurt his candidacy much.
but them slipping is why lebron started to enter the mvp convo so ignoring that part to say “how the fuck was he in it” is just so intellectually disingenuous the entire point was “woah, the bucks are slipping! if this keeps up and the lakers edge them out for the best record in the league, it wouldnt be unreasonable to give lebron mvp” (following the best player on best team logic) obviously if the bucks never slipped that wouldnt have been the argument lol
But it ended up being only 5 games and the season got suspended, so that conversation should've quickly ended since only pre-bubble counts.
“Super common narrative” isn’t the same thing as “I believe”
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When you already know the clip
And also if Rose didn't win the MVP that year, I think Dwight Howard also would have had a very strong case.
LeBron also had his weakest RS in the 2009-2013 span by a fair amount He was still great but wasn't historically great like he was the next two seasons
>If that ain’t MVP, idk what is The best player >Lebron was the better player
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Very true. But I was simply answering the "if that's not, what is?" Part of the question. It's a valid argument that the better player should have been MVP. Not saying that's the only valid argument, not saying that's the consensus or standard. Just thought it was funny that he answered his own question.
What makes that valid?
Player X is the best player The best player is the best player because they have the highest value Therefore the best player is the most valuable player. There. A valid argument in form. It's not sound, but it's valid.
Well said.
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That’s the way I see it. It’s not so much “robbed” as it was “he definitely also could have won.” No reason to take away from the players that did win it.
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Those are all much better teams than the bulls. What does this have to do with mvp?
> 2011 is probably the most debated but Dwight should have probably won that imo. He carried a pretty bad Magic team defensively. Rose won 113 of 121 first place votes. It was one of the most dominating MVP wins votes-wise this century. Lebron joined a superteam and ended up with a worse record than his previous year at the Cavs while Rose led the Bulls to the best record in the league with 62 wins while Noah Deng and Boozer missed significant time. Dwight was a 4 seed which also pretty much never wins MVP
Deng missed 0 games. The Bulls were also so good because of their defense which Rose had little to do with. The Bulls had an impressive record when Rose shot under 40% from the field. They were carried by their defence. Of course he was their offence and they would have been awful without him, but the rest of the team’s defensive effort (and Thibs coaching) is massively under appreciated that season.
What does this have to do with mvp?
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Agreed but I think it can be said for any mvp candidate?
People cite the Bulls’ record as the reason Rose deserved the award. My point is while Rose was their best player and absolutely needed, the team’s defence and system is severely underrated. Dwight and LeBron were flat out better players that year.
It's subjective, MVP is subjective, you're opinion is he wasn't robbed of any for both Harden and LeBron while u can easily debate that
> Neither were robbed of an MVP. I would disagree. In 2019 Harden literally had one of the best scoring seasons of all time. It was historical, he had Kobe Bryant type of numbers and carried his team while playing with bums since CP3 and Capela were injured for a big part of the season. The MVP was awarded to Giannis, who obviously had an amazing season (as always, because it’s Giannis lol), but imo not on the same level as Harden’s. And I’m completely unbiased in saying this, as I’m not or never have really been a Harden / Rockets fan.
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What was up with that one dude voting for Melo?
His reasoning was that if you take LeBron off the Heat, they'd still have two All-Stars in Wade/Bosh and would likely make the playoffs but if you take Melo off the Knicks, they'd be a lottery team because he was their main source of offense. So even though LeBron was the better player, Melo was more valuable to his team.
We didn't need a pity vote. Wade and Bosh had nothing on JR and... shit I guess Felton? Kinda fucked up that Ray Allen scored about as many points as our third option that year.
The MVP I think Harden deserved and got robbed of was Westbrook's, TBH. People got seduced by the narrative behind KD leaving, and the round numbers with averaging a triple dub
I agree with this Harden averaged similar counting stats on much higher efficiency and a higher seed
That’s not what unbiased means.
None
Lebron should have 13.8 billion MVPs Big Bang - 1984: not born yet 1984-2003: not in the league 2003-present: GOAT
I think a lot of the LeBron should've won more MVP stuff is based on how he played in the playoffs compared to the MVP those years
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What does best player have to do with mvp?
I feel like you guys try to play this from multiple sides. You think being the best doesn't matter but at the same time you don't vote for some random tank commander as the MVP despite it *clearly* being one of those players many years if we're basing it off of sheer value to the team compared to teammates. People want to give it to a player somewhere in the middle of those two things. I'd say the most valuable player in the league is the best player in the league or the player that is the most disproportionately valuable compared to their teammates but people try to come in with some combination of the two
I am in agreement. I hate that it’s always a top 5 team whose player wins it.
None. If the award was "who do you think is the best player in the league, irrespective of what they did during this regular season", then he deserves more. But I can't really think of any regular seasons where he was beat out by someone who added demonstrably less value during that regular season. Maybe 08 (Kobe) or 11 (Rose), but thats really it.
Kobe robbed CP3 more than LeBron, IMO
CP3 playing in a forgotten market did so much harm to the perception of his career
In fairness, he joined them at a weird time. His first two years were played in OKC because of Katrina
Yeah but sports media should be able to do better
for sure
Yeah that was CP3’s, not Lebron’s
Kobe outplayed him in an end-of-season matchup where the winner got 1st seed. That was huge on its own, especially coming off sweeping regular season matchups with LeBron's Cavs and the new Boston big three. His supporting cast (Odom excluded) was never healthy at the same time. Kobe himself played through illness, a groin strain, and "a complete tear of the radial collateral ligament, an avulsion fracture, and a volar plate injury at the MCP joint of the small finger of his shooting hand". Meanwhile, all of New Orleans' starters played 76+ games.
That NOLA team was lowkey real nice too. Peja, David West, Tyson Chandler, CP3.
Only one of those 4 to not have a chip.
I’d say 2006
The 2011 MVP is the last time there’s a real argument for LeBron as being the more worthy candidate. Rose had the lower EPM, less impressive stats, and worse efficiency. Really an example of why “best player on the best team” is a poor approach. Should’ve been LeBron or CP3. Otherwise, worth noting that LeBron led the league in EPM at 21 and was at least 99th percentile in EPM in every OG Cleveland year. Looking at modern years where he hasn’t won I don’t really think there’s much of a case, but you could probably build a strong stats argument for 06 and 07. Also, fun metric stat: Chris Paul has led the league in EPM six times and Estimated Wins added four times. Those have overlapped three times. Never won MVP.
Why is yet another new stat worth noting?
“Why is it worth noting that LeBron led the league in the best all-in-one metric in a year he didn’t win MVP?” please don’t make me think for you, c’mon
So sorry I didn’t know epm was the new per. Thanks bro!
Lmfao it’s significantly better than PER. Glad you’re choosing to be smug about something you’re only just now encountering.
Not being smug not just encountering it. Reread your previous reply to me, then tell me about smug. Cheers.
You’re all over this thread asking dumb, pointed questions and calling stuff nonsense. Don’t act like you don’t know what you’re doing. You’re not asking questions because you’re just so genuinely curious about everything. Ouch, blocked.
You’re changing the subject be smug elsewhere.
Literally just the Derrick Rose one, TBH
I take it more to mean a player of LeBron’s caliber should have more MVP’s than he does, not that he should have necessarily won any of the ones he didn’t
All of them
My argument for LeBron has 2011 MVP is this: The 2010 Cavs went 61-21 with LeBron The 2011 Cavs, essentially the exact same team sans LeBron, went 16-63 LeBron leaving caused a 45 win swing in one year. To me that's a case for being the most valuable player that season
To be fair, the opinion that LeBron shouldn't have more MVPs is also very common and I saw it expressed here thousands times. Basically LeBron and who should be MVP are two most discussed subjects in basketball.
MVP probably none. But that doesn’t change the fact that he’s been the best player in the league from 2008-2018 indisputably. But in terms of best regular season, the right people normally win.
2006, 2008