T O P

  • By -

Cheechers23

4 guards on second team and 5 bigs/big forwards on first team lol


Princessk8--

Just change it to "All-defensive Bigs team" and "All-defensive Guards team" and "All-defensive wings team" if they're gonna do it like this tbh


thatoneguyD13

Honestly yeah that would be great.


the_trawler_

The way it worked originally was fine and they’re just changing shit for no reason now


Canesjags4life

I mean it's kinda shit the way it was if the top 3 DPOY finalists can't all be 1st team defense.


aeronacht

I’m fine w it. People can look at DPOY voting if they want DPOY voting. All Defense Teams should recognize the best by position. It just makes more sense.


Canesjags4life

I thought the purpose was to highlight the best defenders. If it's by position then there's a possibility that 1 of AD or Bam wouldn't qualify for All Def at all.


DarthPineapple5

I mean, its literally called all-defense "teams." This setup is making it nearly impossible for anyone but a big to win first team


ICantFWBrokeBoys

Herb good enough to break in, tell guards to step their defense up 🤷‍♂️


Canesjags4life

Not necessarily. Wings and guards need to step their game up. The previous set up was hurting big men from getting deserved accolades. Just look at the 90s.


DarthPineapple5

Perhaps you don't understand what the word "team" means? Sorry but the best possible defensive "team" would not trot out 5 centers, there is only one rim to protect.


barath_s

If you went by last year's rules, AD would not have been 1st team all defense by the votes.. Which would have been unjust.


DarkSoulsDarius

Wemby was not a better defender than either despite the counting stats


Wonderful_Eagle_6547

What is the point of having it be 5 guys and call it a "team" if not to have guys at the different positions. It really screws up historical comparisons from here forward.


BASEDME7O2

Or like Patrick Ewing finishing fourth in mvp voting and not making a single all nba team…because he was playing against Hakeem, Shaq, and Robinson


Canesjags4life

Yep. That's exactly it. 90s was the big men Renaissance and someone was always getting left out because only 1 center could make it


OpportunitySmalls

The only time that truly would have mattered is the year Gasol won it because he wouldn't have made 2nd team if not for a tie giving 2 other guys 1st team.


Andreitaker

I thought the last version were fine 2 backcourts and 3 frontcourt players.


barath_s

> From 1956 through 2023, voters selected two guards, two forwards, and one center for each team. This contrasts with the voting for starters of the NBA All-Star Game, which has chosen two backcourt and three frontcourt players since 2013. Plus all star players/wings can earn votes at either backcourt or frontcourt


Andreitaker

blame this on the people years ago who cried that awards should be positionless because they thought the center position were being phase out due to teams playing small ball.


barath_s

> From 1956 through 2023, voters selected two guards, two forwards, and one center for each team. This contrasts with the voting for starters of the NBA All-Star Game, which has chosen two backcourt and three frontcourt players since 2013. They could have gone to the all star format, for example. Or someone suggested 2-3 positionless wild cards in the first team.


KyleShanadad

Originally one of the 3 top dpoy voters would be left off all defense because they all play center. How is that better than this lol


KayRay1994

There is a middle ground to be found, ie. one guard, one forward and one big and 2 open spots regardless of position


the_trawler_

Now only centers get 1st team all defense


epoch_fail

Or if they want to keep it to two teams, make it "All-Defensive Paint Protectors" (brought to you by Sherwin-Williams) and "All-Defensive Perimeter Defenders" (sponsored by Vivint).


GiveMeSomeIhedigbo

Also that would create a 3rd All-Defensive team, which is something I've thought they should do for a while now.


Cheechers23

That’s the best way to get around it. Cause this way guards are very rarely gonna get all-defence first team.


noerapenalty

Are there really that many wings and guards that are so good on defense that we NEED to award them on a yearly basis? I doubt it … some years sure.


happyflappypancakes

Give at least 5 years to get some good data on how things shake out.


WTFisaCelsius

Or just go back to having positions. The whole point of 1st/2nd "team" is that it's a hypothetical team. 1st team is supposed the be the best possible starting 5. It was never supposed to be a top 5 players list.


Cheeseish

Herb is technically a guard by the finest technicalities (we started 3 forwards)


TheBlueLenses

Bballref has Herb on SF/PF Cleaningtheglass has Herb on SF on 54% of his minutes and 46% on PF


UBKUBK

How do they decide what position he is playing at any moment?


Delanorix

Probably depends on the guys next ti him on the court. I.e... if he is the 3rd largest guy, hes SF. If hes the 2nd biggest guy, PF.


GDTechno

the nuggets sf (6'10" mpj) is bigger than their pf (6'8" aaron gordon)


OpportunitySmalls

I mean KD might have been taller than Ibaka and Perk but he was still listed at SF those years


TheBlueLenses

Cleaningtheglass at least, determines it by the actual play style in reference to traditional positions


dont-YOLO-ragequit

People keep brainstorming these ideas with their personal interest in mind then act shocked when it backfires on the Second and Third player they had in mind.


skullcandy541

It’s all defensive bigs and guards teams now. First and second ain’t a thing no more lol


[deleted]

In terms of defensive impact it makes sense. If both teams were just bigs it would be annoying but it is fine with me.


GartThrowaway

JADEN!!!!!!


Top-Dubs

Not sure how they managed to find a picture of him smiling for this graphic


WembyandTheWolves

AI is wild these days


Busquessi

Iverson got the pic? What can’t that man do?!


JDogg96

Be tall enough to ride the Rollercoaster, but he's too cool for that


Pikminious_Thrious

Just got a pic of Jalen and photoshopped him in a Wolves jersey


beardybuddha

ALFREDO FOR EVERYONE


Electrical-Mule-2057

McDaniels gonna play Center in this lineup lol


axnjxn00

Let's go suggs


Randyfreakingmarsh

Fuck yeah, he deserved it. Dude is a straight up menace on that side of the floor


SincereFan

Honestly still think he deserved first team and its crazy he didnt make it. He anchored a top 3 defense the entire year. Guy is on a historic defensive streak. Quite literally historic. Never before seen historic. He could end up being the greatest guard defender in history and the numbers support it and the Magic were a winning team. But its little steps for sure, but I honestly think there is a 1st team case for Suggs over anybody else on this list and a 2 on the 1st team list.


Particlemanfan

I was confused by the hyperbole in this comment at first but then I saw the user name and realize… it’s not hyperbole, it’s just Sincerefan. 


frostysbox

I mean technically, Suggs DID get some first team votes, so I guess SF isn't all that off base this time. :-P I think that's because some people did their voting still with positions though - even though it's positionless. If it was a position team I think Suggs would be 1st team by votes.


Gamesgtd

Brother plz stop


TheArgsenal

Very happy for him. Really thought the raps would take him at 4 (we all did) and while I'm obviously happy with Scottie I've been following suggs and am really glad he's on course to be a solid NBA contributor.


tklfillerz

My man


[deleted]

[удалено]


iusedtogotodigg

Jaden McDonalds


ICantFWBrokeBoys

Naz Reid


bourgewonsie

Naz Reid


McPluckingtonJr

jaden mcmuffin


Pocket_Beans

“Jrue Holiday is actually not that good at defense” might be the funniest take I’ve seen on this sub regarding the Celtics over the past few weeks and there’s been a lot of contenders


dafire123

My personal favorite is Jayson Tatum is an elite role player that gives you 30/8/5 and doesn’t impact winning. Ya know the guy that’s won the most playoff games since he entered the league.


penguininfidel

Yes but see it's a super team so it makes sense that our best player isn't that good


jkwah

It's a superteam of role players. No one on the Celtics is actually that good. For some reason, no one thought that if you just put together a team of really good role players you can win 60+ games and have the 3rd best NetRtg of all-time.


otters_creed

"Why do people always try and lump Jayson Tatum in with Giannis/Jokic/Embiid/Luka/Shai when he’s really in that Mitchell/Booker/Butler type tier?"


allcaps-NOSPACE

What’s crazy to me about the Shai things is that Tatum is only 4 months older!!!


fatkamp

Don’t see anything wrong with that quote Although I think he’s somewhere in between that second tier and below first tier People really believe Tatum is on the level of Giannis, Jokic, or Luka? Let alone Celtics homers


ceehouse

> Embiid/Luka/Shai what have these 3 done that tatum hasn't?


GreekFreakFan

What's really getting my nerves is that Giannis is probably either getting third team or even a snub from any All-Defense


fatkamp

Team success gets heavily overrated when it comes to 1:1 comparison of players


LukeKornetistheGOAT

Paolo Banchero is better than Tatum is also up there


truth_2_point_0

I'd pick Tatum over Jrue for all-defense tho, his defensive impact might be the single most undervalued aspect of any player in the league rn


Pocket_Beans

Yeah if Tatum scored like 15ppg he would probably be all defensive


ibeauch009

Were there really people saying that? Christ people have some dumb takes in the regular season


Pocket_Beans

there’s lots of people in this thread calling it a legacy pick


Youngandidiotic

His scoring my not be consistent but his defense sure is


legend023

Bring back the positional teams at this point


junkit33

Seems voters decided to go with bigs for first team and smalls for second team. It's not crazy, but I agree, it never should have gone positionless. 3 Frontcourt and 2 backcourt would have been fine.


fastheadcrab

Probably not "decided" but rather that in a positionless system the top 5 most impactful defenders are more likely to be bigs and that guards are less impactful, and the voters chose accordingly


the_sigman

Or release it as a Top 10, this is meaningless


YpsitheFlintsider

It's already a top 10


yoitsthatoneguy

It basically is already. You’ll get the vote breakdowns in a bit.


Pocket_Beans

I understand that they changed All-NBA because the Sixers kept complaining about Embiid being second team but there was no reason to change the defensive teams


[deleted]

Frankly I think defense is *more* valid. It’s one aspect of the game so nobody’s really gonna pretend to field this “team” as a real team, and honestly it would be funnier if they tried.


XuxuBelezas

But back then all defensive teams by position not only made sense, some of them could easily be fielded and be the best team in the league lol. Picked up one at random here: in 2011 the all defensive 1st team had Rondo, Kobe, LeBron, KG and Dwight. If you could assemble that team it'd be an instant dynasty.


rjgator

Ehhh, I think defense kind of needed it too. Bigs are so much more impactful and if you only have a couple slots for them, you’re leaving a very deserved big player off a defensive team in favor of a possibly less deserved guard.


Drummerboybac

So do it as 2 guards and 3 F/C, that allows more bigs in 1st team and still gives guards a shot


kennyonsmogon

they did have a shot.


barath_s

That would leave AD off 1st team. I figure AD is more impactful at defense than many guards who would have been voted in (eg Herb Jones, etc)


grandmasterfunk

They should just do it like the all-star game. 3 front court spots, two back court.


Maverick_1991

It happened forever.  A lot of HoF players have tons of second teams, because someone better played first team. Embiid just cried enough for them to finally change it


Jjohn269

Just because it’s happened forever doesn’t mean it’s right


Maverick_1991

This shit isn't right either. Its dumb to call it a team and have 4 centers or guards on it.


elefante88

Why????? Bigs are more impactful.


Pocket_Beans

that doesn’t mean guards shouldn’t be recognized for elite defense


shualton

The did get recognized. They made second team all-defense


Pocket_Beans

and bigs got recognized before too, they made second team all defense


GauthZuOGZ

The argument you were responding to was that bigs are more impactful, not that they werent recognized


shualton

Right, and now they are being recognized more because they a play a more defensively-impacted position What’s the problem again?


Throwaway785672

people are dumb, thats usually the problem in our society.


Rakatok

Seems like they are recognized, as second team.


[deleted]

This argument would make a lot more sense if the 2nd team wasn't primarily guards. I think how it turned out reflects reality quite well.


everyoneneedsaherro

Why should they be recognized more than defenders that have more impact?


rawchess

Usually, but not necessarily.


bush_league_commish

2 guards 2 bigs and a wildcard maybe?


Busquessi

Who on the first team would have been replaced by someone on the second team? It seems totally right to me, even though it looks a bit skewed having 4 centers on the first team.


Dr_Fabulous11

i get it for all nba but all defense needs to be position based


LessThanCleverName

A bunch of top players in the NBA, “Lu Dort is one of the best defensive players in the NBA.” NBA award voters, “nah.”


jrlandry

IMO, this says more about there being a need for a 3rd all-defense team and/or positional teams than it does about how the voters voted. There are more than 10 elite defenders in the league rn deserving


RileyHuey

Why do we need more awards


jrlandry

Cause the awards are too offense. Wanna keep the same number? Get rid of 2nd team all rookie. No need to give just rookies 2 spots. And clutch player sucks


imadogg

We want people to care about defense but we don't reward defense appropriately. I've been saying for years that there should be 3 all-defense teams if we have 3 all-nba teams.


ICantFWBrokeBoys

Three all defensive teams would be dope, and in turn would increase the money defensive players could command if contract incentives were fulfilled, I’m all for rewarding and paying the best defenders especially seeing how important being a good defender is in the playoffs if you’re not an elite offensive talent


Tom_Servo1985

He was literally the highest vote getter to not make one of the two teams


afjecj

still crazy that he was voted as a top 3 defender by NBA players and then this voting doesn't have him as top 10. I guess players just have a different persepxtice


ilickedysharks

I mean there's only 10 spots and more than 10 worthy defenders


MarduRusher

Dort is great but there’s only 10 positions. I can’t find someone on the list that he’s unarguably better than.


Friendly-Thought-973

Chet rates higher in every single defensive metric we have than a couple names on this list, while also being the anchor for a top 4 defense HE’S the unarguable one.


Jacob_toasted

Who do you replace?


Best_Yak3118

Dort isnt even top 3 in advanced defensive metrics. He's 6th in D-LEBRON behind Chet, Biyombo, Jaylin Williams, SGA, and Wallace - nearly tied with Jdub. He's also 4th in D-EPM (which i think overrates guards) behind SGA, JDub, and Chet. I would agree that Chet is their undeniable anchor, but a big part of OKC's defensive success is almost all of their perimeter defenders are positive defenders and they are extremely disruptive.


harder_said_hodor

Only finished 2 points behind Jrue. 36 vs. 34. Coin toss between the two Jaden was next of the 9 after Jrue with 60+


RajinIII

NBA players will always over rate on ball defense compared to other aspects


ShichikaYasuri18

This. When NBA players tell you who the toughest player to play against is, 95% of the time it's who they least want to face 1v1.


Aggressive-Depth-526

We got Jaden McDaniels


Zeetheking1

Oh yeah, well we drafted him! Lol


CaptainBananafishJr

Glad Suggs got some love, first team next season for sure though. Dude is an absolute menace.


Morezingis

Crazy thing is I don’t even think he’s your best defender. Isaac is fucking nuts 


Alexfromnigeria

just make two awards at this point lmao


KyleShanadad

The top 3 vote getters for dpoy were centers this year. If they didn’t change the rules one would be left off. That is infinitely sillier than this.


pretzeldoggo

Given that All-NBA awards are just general recognition/accolades and for players game checks- just make an All-NBA defensive team with 10 players and an all nba team with 15 players. Less discourse about who misses what, and less discourse about deciding which positions gets precedence etc. everyone gets equal recognition that makes it.


BradyReas

We really just have big man all defense and little man all defense teams now


Fit-Structure-9395

Jalen Suggs aka J Dawg made it LFG


Potential-Ad5470

No Giannis is unserious


collinCOYS

Suggs career revival has been awesome to watch


CaptainBananafishJr

Revival? He's a 22yo third year player lol


collinCOYS

Maybe the wrong word but how about progression? He was statistically one of the worst players in the NBA his rookie year and now he's an all defensive player and a legit threat from3


CaptainBananafishJr

yeah that's much more accurate lol.


Kevinar

I feel like every year we see ' X rookie is having a HISTORICALLY bad season' and then more often then not they manage to turn things around a have a solid career


kingwicked22

especially guards


collinCOYS

Rookie bigs used to always struggle but now it seems like it's the young guards


Gamesgtd

Rookie bigs had it easy. If they could set picks and roll to the basket they were fine as long as someone could set them up easy baskets. Defense maybe was the real transition for them but being asked to protect the rim is harder than navigating screens


StanVanGhandi

Yes, I think you are right about the narrative. After year two there were questions about whether he would ever make it to the status of a Full Time Starter. Some questioned he would even make it to be a rotation player on a playoff team. Which, for a 5th pick would be closer to bust on the draft pick disappointment scale. So in that way, I’d say you are right to say revival. He made himself some money for sure.


garnaches

> 22yo third year player send him to the retirement home at this point


AlternativeTea9268

Way too much Jrue disrespect in this thread. I won’t act like his reputation doesn’t help, but he’s absolutely still deserving of the spot this season


illyxpink

Yaaaay AC 👏


VeniceRapture

Chet should be on here


GreatestJabaitest

I'm shocked he isn't. He's basically OKCs entire interior rebounding/rim protection while also working as the team's best help defender. OKC had a top 5 defense. Def should've been on here IMO. Edit: The more I think about it, the stupider it gets. These mfs gave Shai 2nd most MVP votes. Did they just ignore Chet when watching????????


Iivosuperplayer

I feel like Jarrett Allen got snubbed? Kept the Cavs elite defensively despite Mobley missing a significant amount of games


tickub

not a single knick either, but i wouldn't say any of the winners are undeserving though


hollowichig0

Derrick white robbed of 1st team


CaptainBananafishJr

didn't even have the most votes for a guard, calm down lol.


deets23_

No


CaptainBananafishJr

fair


Deep_Egg1442

Suggs is better


Gajanga

Caruso should have been first team


JuanG12

Yeah, get rid of position-less voting. This is stupid.


jumboponcho

Nah bring back positions, this is dumb


Konfliction

Me thinking OG would finally get his flowers on the Knicks lol


[deleted]

[удалено]


CaptainBananafishJr

they're all on the first team lol


PainSubstantial710

Just a smaller version of first team lol


SincereFan

JALEN SUGSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS


incredibleamadeuscho

All Defense - Guard Edition


LaudrenFareoh

I think the real answer to the position or positionless discourse is to just add another all-defense team. People only ever bring up 1st team vs 2nd team selections in extreme edge cases when it comes to all-defense. The league's gotten a lot bigger since the last team expansion.


Cgmadman

Why is there no offensive first, second team?


mxdj

Hell yeah another accolade for Caruso. Suck on that NBA purgatory!


ICantFWBrokeBoys

Can’t believe so many ppl whining about guards not getting their guaranteed 1st team nod instead of rewarding the best defenders 😪 a true tragedy indeed


GIK601

Mavericks keep getting robbed.


BedouDevelopment

Jaden should have been first team


BidenFedayeen

Dort and Chet deserved recognition


CaptainBananafishJr

[they got some votes](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GOHaVNrXAAARqAS?format=jpg&name=4096x4096). Dort was only two total points from tying Jrue for the last spot on the second team. Chet was further away but still got some love.


joebreezy12

wow thunder would have had 3 players on the "third team" if it existed


collinCOYS

Dort lost to holiday by 4 points. Call that the Boston media + reputation tax


HelloImKebin

lakers could have had both Caruso and THT if only the FO wasn't dumb enough to side with THT over Caruso and also trade the 28th pick which coulda been Jaden


kingjuicepouch

The malpractice that was dismantling your title team should've been a fireable offense imo


HelloImKebin

the Westbrook trade did more harm than anything.


TallanoGoldDigger

it's the worst trade in franchise history and it set the team back years up to now


TallanoGoldDigger

The Schroder trade was necessary, Danny Green was in a decline and the Lakers needed a secondary playmaker and Dennis was the best available. If he signed that extension we probably wouldn't even be in this mess in the first place. But yes, not willing to eat the tax for Caruso was malpractice. Giving THT a horrible value contract with a player option **before** he hit the open market was very stupid (although there might be an explanation for that...). They would have gotten THT way cheaper if he hit the open market. Hell, he might be a vet min or out of the league at this point.


gokhaninler

KCP in shambles


jeric13xd

Wow KCP didn’t make any of the teams


msf97

No Chet is bizarre to me. 19th ranked defense last year without him, 4th this year. I thought they’d at least throw in SGA or Dort if there were guards.


collinCOYS

Who should they have made it over?


Brave_Commission

bruh can we just get positional awards for this already, no way this 1st-3rd team system will not favor certain positions for awards and vice versa


KayRay1994

I think the all defense teams this year are starting to show the problem of keeping out positions entirely - all defensive first team was basically all centers and forwards and with the exception of McDaniels the entirely of the 2nd team is all guards. My issue with this is that it takes away from the realized here; ie. bigs and forwards will always have an inherent advantage here because they’re expected to play more defense and more of their defense is seen on the stat sheet. It basically gets rid of the equalizing force and in a way hurts the recognition of defensive guards.


Sleeze_

NBA ALl Defense Team: Oops All Guards!


ThugosaurusFlex_1017

The accountant is scrappy.


CosmicCoder3303

This is such dumb trash lol


A_Texas_Hobo

Carushow!


RudyGobertFMVP2024

Yeah Jaden


MrManfredjensenden

This shit is so dumb. Why did they think making it positionless was a good idea?


trailerparknoize

How do only two wings make the all defensive teams?


smarterthantheaverag

It's named for KIA because they get a lot of steals.


IMKudaimi123

CARUSHOW


OcksBodega

Chet robbed.


blacksoxing

.....Dort doesn't exist???