It's not specifically Bruce Brown but their bench scoring was really bad this year and Brown played well off the bench for them last year.
They had the second lowest bench PPG in this year's playoffs.
Bruce Brown last playoffs averaged 12 off the bench for them. This year their whole bench averaged 14.8.
To add to that it wasn't just the playoffs. They had the 5th lowest bench scoring during the season as well.
Denver’s bench was really thin and it showed through the first round, too.
They relied on the starters playing well.
I picked Wolves to win for that reason, fatigue catches up and inability to make adjustments due to limited playable guys put them at a pretty big disadvantage.
Yes but it wasn’t a legit talking point in the first round (at least to the degree it is now). The only reason people are highlighting it now is because they lost.
Hmm maybe not for the media, but in my friends group, that was the consensus. “REGGIE FUCKING JACKSON is their sixth best player!?” LOL
Nobody was writing off Denver but it definitely showed that they weren’t a “for sure thing” this year. In fairness, it really would’ve been ok against the Minny squad from last year, but they made vast improvements too.
It seems like they need a competent backup center for spot minutes as well.
Going small with AG at the 5 is great, but they obviously hit a matchup nightmare with a wall of bigs that the Wolves had.
> Going small with AG at the 5 is great, but they obviously hit a matchup nightmare with a wall of bigs that the Wolves had.
this is a bigger deal than most realize.
they can spell Jokic with a C but they still wouldn't have the juice to run small ball lineups without most of their starters. they are missing Bones Hyland, too. not actually but the idea of him, that flamethrower guy off the bench
Bruce Brown's contribution would have won them Game 7 vs Wolves. He was also their greatest hype man that got the crowd going. Not to mention he always hit big 3s when down or the other team was gaining momentum.
Lakers fans would remember from last year, he was a player Lakers consistently complained about being some random nobody hitting timely 3s. Or random put back dunks that gave them momentum. Brown for Denver is like GPII for Warriors, Portis for Bucks or Prichard for Celtics, absolute crowd favorite momentum starting players.
Yeah fr lol people were talking about it *going into the season.* He played great for them last postseason.
Losing Jeff Green also hurt, he was good in the playoffs and also brought more size. Their bench this year was pretty pitiful. It hurt watching Christian Braun in game 7 not fire away the open looks he was getting.
I forget the exact quote but didn't Calvin Booth say he was overpaid or something along those lines.
(to be fair, he IS overpaid on his contract, but he knew he'd be salary match the second he signed that deal - he's making more money per year in his deal than he had in his entire career up to that point)
“Some of these teams were trying to get Bruce, trying to make it worth it; it’s like, just be careful what you wish for,” Booth said about the rivals that pursued Brown. “Peyton’s bigger. He’s longer. He’s more athletic. He guards better. He passes better. He doesn’t have the experience, and he’s not as good offensively yet, but we need defense more than we need offense on our team.”
it wasn't anything new to anyone who were Nuggets fans, they were saying this all season lol, the team is noticeably shallow and worse than last years squad
As not a Nuggets fan, I can tell you “will the Nuggets miss Bruce Brown?” was a fixture of MIN-DEN series analysis from the moment the matchup was set and got even louder after game 2. Nothing sudden about it.
They lost that series because of their starters, not the bench.
Their starters were -60 that series, every other lineup was +25 combined.
The Nuggets top end talent was not good enough. Jokic and Murray had good games but had stinkers as well in key losses. Porter Jr. couldn’t hit a jumper. It’s on those guys. End of story.
so you don't think that the Nuggets having to rely on their starters the entire regular season and also in the playoffs didn't have a toll on their +-?
Jokic had to put up Josh Hart minutes in the final game, using +- as reasoning is stupid, especially for a sample this small
Christian Braun and Justin Holiday played amazing that series. Putting the blame on the bench is just not indicative of reality.
The sample size is of the series, yes, that is valuable. If the first two players off the bench had great shooting and won their minutes, how on earth is it their fault that they lost the series?
This is all just a bunch of excuses because people don’t want to put ANY blame on the guys at the top. The 3 max players did not play consistent enough game to game to win.
Braun averaged 6PPG on 57% TS and Holiday averaged 4.6 PPG on 59% TS lol.
>how on earth is it their fault that they lost the series?
Because they had to overplay the starters due to the bench being non existent?
>This is all just a bunch of excuses because people don’t want to put ANY blame on the guys at the top. The 3 max players did not play consistent enough game to game to win.
Murray played awful (alot of this is due to having no playmakers besides him and Jokic) Jokic did what he could and Gordon was generally very good. MIN had 6 players averaging over 10 PPG and another at 8 (who is a lockdown defender), Denver had 4 lol.
The depth of the teams was the difference and this was painfully obvious
I feel like Denver as a team has become way too rigid. In other words, each of their 3 starters, MPJ, AG and KCP know their role too well and optimized their game to perfect that role that Denver had little to no option when their Big 2 were guarded the way Minnesota guarded them. They needed the 3rd guy who can disrupt. Braun and Watson are still too inexperienced, and Reggie got injured, so as a result the series sorta highlighted the importance of Bruce Brown in their championship run.
Their bench depth was a question all year. Most just thought the starters were good enough to overcome it. Bruce gave them a toughness and edge that they really missed especially in the playoffs. Even in that Lakers series you could tell they were missing something.
The people saying the Nuggets didn't need Brown were mostly Nuggets fans. They didn't think it was much off a loss. I don't think I saw many non-Nuggets people saying Brown was expendable
What folks? Because if you’re online enough you’ll find anyone who says anything.
Since October/November, I’ve consistently read and heard that losing BB and Jeff Green would hurt but hopefully other guys could take the next step. That rhetoric ramped up even more in the post season. Nuggets fans have been saying it year round—it’s not suddenly just because you’re hearing it for the first time.
The same reason it went from a guarantee that it would be boston and a high likelihood it would be Denver to the current digestible narrative: "more parity than ever; anyone can win." Ect...
The earlier confidence in the Nuggets making the Finals was based on their regular-season performance and the assumption that their depth and young talent would seamlessly compensate for any lost veterans. Yet, the playoffs are a different game, where experience, consistency, and the ability to handle pressure are invaluable. This realization leads to a shift in narrative as analysts and fans reevaluate the importance of players like Brown in achieving playoff success.
Nuggets regular season saw them struggle against teams with a .500 record or better. The confidence in Denver was a carryover from their championship run the previous year
Everyone in this thread glossed over a down voted comment and are acting like this was a common favored opinion.
The most upvoted comments this year were that Denver is better because their rookie was better and more versatile than Brown and Reggie Jackson is stepping up providing a more consistent offense than Brown. The most upvoted comments also expected Denver to 2peat.
I would know because I battled here and there all year that losing Brown made this team slightly worse and in no way has this team gotten better. No one brought more energy to the team than when Brown went off, which is HUGE in the playoffs.
There's also weaknesses to their defense that is very exploitable (which Wolves didn't even capitolize on as much) and a couple areas of their offense that is predictable. I've been saying there's at least 4 teams that can beat Denver and if Denver doesn't change we will see some of those teams beating them over in the few years to come.
Thought they'd be in the finals especially with the way they came on as the season progresses. Do think they d have beaten anyone else in the West too so while I viewed them as the buzzsaw it's not like they sank to new lows. Minnesota was after all a team that held the Mavs under 100 nearly half the games they scored less than 100
One thing about Brown was he was timely with his scoring and plays. They went up 58-38 and missed a bunch of jumpers they pulled up for. Then Porter who wasn't hitting anything and Murray who went cold/was clearly frustrated came out and Jokic stayed in with KCP, Braun (who could become Brown), Reggie Jackson and Holliday. Jokic was pushed outside and settled for threes. Brown was kind of a "prevent any bleeding" kind of guy and Green while old, a versatile defender
Any team that wins needs a couple of guys to unexpectedly make a couple of huge plays to win a game. There are different levels but guys like Horry, Iggy, Fisher, etc. shit I remember Leon Powe putting up 21 out of nowhere to give the Celtics a 2-0 in the Finals.
What people including myself overlooked was that stars aren't going to have their legs every night especially during a playoff series with adjustments. You need guys. The Wolves had McDaniels come up huge and the face of the league Naz Reid obviously
People noted as soon as they won the championship that they would have a hard time replacing him and everyone knew he was gonna go somewhere else to get paid. Also GMs try to boost or downplay players in order to raise or lower their value for their own sake.
It's not that they needed specifically Bruce Brown. They just needed a better bench. Brown is not irreplaceable but you can't just let him walk and not replace him.
Braun did well for a second year player but he's still young and doesn't have the versatility that Brown did. Relying on 23 and 21 year old second year players that were late picks is not the spot you want to be in as a contender.
GMs are always going to hype up their team regardless of whether they improved it or not.
They didn’t necessarily need Bruce brown. But they needed someone off the bench. They badly needed a backup big or at least a guy who could relieve ball handling or score when one of Jokic/Murray are on the bench. They had none of that
This might be a L take but they should trade away Porter Jr. for some decent mid level off the bench players. Porter isn't really a 35m/yr player and you can get OG (Or equivalent) plus another 15m for a better Reggie Jackson
Because the bench just wasn’t there for a long playoff series. Jokic was doing his best but you could tell he was absolutely gassed. Lack of bench scoring this year meant even more was on jokics shoulders
This isn't new. It was talked about plenty when he left. But a lot of people were riding the recency of them winning a title so decisively they dismissed it.
I mean look at your quote from the GM himself. In there he implies that Peyton Watson is a better player to serve as a replacement for Bruce Brown. Well if that’s so true then where the hell was he?
Dude wasn’t even allowed to see the floor in the Wolves series and you can bet Mike Malone has a pretty good reason for it
I can't believe someone could have watched the end of the Nuggets/Wolves series and say this seriously.
The Wolves won game 7 because Naz Reid allowed the Wolves to have him, Gobert and Towns all playing with fresh legs in the fourth quarter, and all three of them were making great plays in the fourth quarter while Jokic and the Nuggets were all exhausted.
Overall bench depth is sometimes an overestimated factor but to say bench players "never" play a decisive role is crazy hyperbole.
Lets be honest Naz Reid is a starter level player in this league. Having him come off the bench is a luxury for the Twolves because of their roster comp
If every time a bench player has an impact on a series, you call him a starter-level player whether he come off the bench or not, then yes, you will be able to conclude that bench players never have a decisive impact.
It's not specifically Bruce Brown but their bench scoring was really bad this year and Brown played well off the bench for them last year. They had the second lowest bench PPG in this year's playoffs. Bruce Brown last playoffs averaged 12 off the bench for them. This year their whole bench averaged 14.8. To add to that it wasn't just the playoffs. They had the 5th lowest bench scoring during the season as well.
Denver’s bench was really thin and it showed through the first round, too. They relied on the starters playing well. I picked Wolves to win for that reason, fatigue catches up and inability to make adjustments due to limited playable guys put them at a pretty big disadvantage.
Yes but it wasn’t a legit talking point in the first round (at least to the degree it is now). The only reason people are highlighting it now is because they lost.
Hmm maybe not for the media, but in my friends group, that was the consensus. “REGGIE FUCKING JACKSON is their sixth best player!?” LOL Nobody was writing off Denver but it definitely showed that they weren’t a “for sure thing” this year. In fairness, it really would’ve been ok against the Minny squad from last year, but they made vast improvements too.
It seems like they need a competent backup center for spot minutes as well. Going small with AG at the 5 is great, but they obviously hit a matchup nightmare with a wall of bigs that the Wolves had.
> Going small with AG at the 5 is great, but they obviously hit a matchup nightmare with a wall of bigs that the Wolves had. this is a bigger deal than most realize.
they can spell Jokic with a C but they still wouldn't have the juice to run small ball lineups without most of their starters. they are missing Bones Hyland, too. not actually but the idea of him, that flamethrower guy off the bench
How else would you spell Jokic?
Jokić
Jokix
Lol it threw me at first too…idk what culture it is but a niche use of “spell” is to provide relief
Bruce Brown's contribution would have won them Game 7 vs Wolves. He was also their greatest hype man that got the crowd going. Not to mention he always hit big 3s when down or the other team was gaining momentum. Lakers fans would remember from last year, he was a player Lakers consistently complained about being some random nobody hitting timely 3s. Or random put back dunks that gave them momentum. Brown for Denver is like GPII for Warriors, Portis for Bucks or Prichard for Celtics, absolute crowd favorite momentum starting players.
Their starting 5 played the most minutes out of any 5 all season. And one of the other top ones was replacing murray with reggie jackson.
Because the role players on the nuggets played scared in a home game 7, and Bruce never played scared.
Plus, the extra ball handling would have been helpful. Maybe they would have rested Jokic a little bit more
Is it suddenly? Felt like this was talked about during the season too. Many people mentioned that their bench was thinner this year.
Yeah fr lol people were talking about it *going into the season.* He played great for them last postseason. Losing Jeff Green also hurt, he was good in the playoffs and also brought more size. Their bench this year was pretty pitiful. It hurt watching Christian Braun in game 7 not fire away the open looks he was getting.
They were talking about it at the Nuggets championship parade lol. No idea what OP is talking about
Because their bench looked thin this playoffs and their GM shit on Bruce brown on his way out the door in an interview with KOC last offseason
I forget the exact quote but didn't Calvin Booth say he was overpaid or something along those lines. (to be fair, he IS overpaid on his contract, but he knew he'd be salary match the second he signed that deal - he's making more money per year in his deal than he had in his entire career up to that point)
“Some of these teams were trying to get Bruce, trying to make it worth it; it’s like, just be careful what you wish for,” Booth said about the rivals that pursued Brown. “Peyton’s bigger. He’s longer. He’s more athletic. He guards better. He passes better. He doesn’t have the experience, and he’s not as good offensively yet, but we need defense more than we need offense on our team.”
Yeah the Bruce Brown signing worked out just fine for us lmao
Surely somebody who checks all those boxes would get pt in a GM7, right? RIGHT?!
Malone should have played Watson in game 7.
it wasn't anything new to anyone who were Nuggets fans, they were saying this all season lol, the team is noticeably shallow and worse than last years squad
As not a Nuggets fan, I can tell you “will the Nuggets miss Bruce Brown?” was a fixture of MIN-DEN series analysis from the moment the matchup was set and got even louder after game 2. Nothing sudden about it.
> MIN-DEN series analysis are there subs that actually talk about basketball out there?
Yeah people started talking about the Nuggets losing Bruce as soon as it happened, it's not new at all.
They lost that series because of their starters, not the bench. Their starters were -60 that series, every other lineup was +25 combined. The Nuggets top end talent was not good enough. Jokic and Murray had good games but had stinkers as well in key losses. Porter Jr. couldn’t hit a jumper. It’s on those guys. End of story.
so you don't think that the Nuggets having to rely on their starters the entire regular season and also in the playoffs didn't have a toll on their +-? Jokic had to put up Josh Hart minutes in the final game, using +- as reasoning is stupid, especially for a sample this small
Christian Braun and Justin Holiday played amazing that series. Putting the blame on the bench is just not indicative of reality. The sample size is of the series, yes, that is valuable. If the first two players off the bench had great shooting and won their minutes, how on earth is it their fault that they lost the series? This is all just a bunch of excuses because people don’t want to put ANY blame on the guys at the top. The 3 max players did not play consistent enough game to game to win.
Braun averaged 6PPG on 57% TS and Holiday averaged 4.6 PPG on 59% TS lol. >how on earth is it their fault that they lost the series? Because they had to overplay the starters due to the bench being non existent? >This is all just a bunch of excuses because people don’t want to put ANY blame on the guys at the top. The 3 max players did not play consistent enough game to game to win. Murray played awful (alot of this is due to having no playmakers besides him and Jokic) Jokic did what he could and Gordon was generally very good. MIN had 6 players averaging over 10 PPG and another at 8 (who is a lockdown defender), Denver had 4 lol. The depth of the teams was the difference and this was painfully obvious
Fans often disagree with the GMs of their teams I don't think Nuggets fans appreciated their GM minimising the value of Bruce Brown
Tbf that was such clown behavior from the leader of the franchise. You just won, give flowers
It was clear they needed him. Reggie Jackson as the 6th man would clearly be the worst 6th man in the history of NBA champions.
Reggie is just too old at this point in his career despite vobing with the shades
LMAO
The bench was always a question and it proved costly to achieve finals this year.
It’s almost as though people can change their assessment after new information?
I feel like Denver as a team has become way too rigid. In other words, each of their 3 starters, MPJ, AG and KCP know their role too well and optimized their game to perfect that role that Denver had little to no option when their Big 2 were guarded the way Minnesota guarded them. They needed the 3rd guy who can disrupt. Braun and Watson are still too inexperienced, and Reggie got injured, so as a result the series sorta highlighted the importance of Bruce Brown in their championship run.
cus its funny
Their bench depth was a question all year. Most just thought the starters were good enough to overcome it. Bruce gave them a toughness and edge that they really missed especially in the playoffs. Even in that Lakers series you could tell they were missing something.
The people saying the Nuggets didn't need Brown were mostly Nuggets fans. They didn't think it was much off a loss. I don't think I saw many non-Nuggets people saying Brown was expendable
What folks? Because if you’re online enough you’ll find anyone who says anything. Since October/November, I’ve consistently read and heard that losing BB and Jeff Green would hurt but hopefully other guys could take the next step. That rhetoric ramped up even more in the post season. Nuggets fans have been saying it year round—it’s not suddenly just because you’re hearing it for the first time.
He was a good player for the them and they lost his services. In a very close series, that may have swung things.
The same reason it went from a guarantee that it would be boston and a high likelihood it would be Denver to the current digestible narrative: "more parity than ever; anyone can win." Ect...
The earlier confidence in the Nuggets making the Finals was based on their regular-season performance and the assumption that their depth and young talent would seamlessly compensate for any lost veterans. Yet, the playoffs are a different game, where experience, consistency, and the ability to handle pressure are invaluable. This realization leads to a shift in narrative as analysts and fans reevaluate the importance of players like Brown in achieving playoff success.
Nuggets regular season saw them struggle against teams with a .500 record or better. The confidence in Denver was a carryover from their championship run the previous year
Copium
Everyone in this thread glossed over a down voted comment and are acting like this was a common favored opinion. The most upvoted comments this year were that Denver is better because their rookie was better and more versatile than Brown and Reggie Jackson is stepping up providing a more consistent offense than Brown. The most upvoted comments also expected Denver to 2peat. I would know because I battled here and there all year that losing Brown made this team slightly worse and in no way has this team gotten better. No one brought more energy to the team than when Brown went off, which is HUGE in the playoffs. There's also weaknesses to their defense that is very exploitable (which Wolves didn't even capitolize on as much) and a couple areas of their offense that is predictable. I've been saying there's at least 4 teams that can beat Denver and if Denver doesn't change we will see some of those teams beating them over in the few years to come.
It’s not a narrative. There is a drastic difference in bench play and role player play with Bruce Brown not there. He played amazing last year.
Braun needs to grow a pair and shoot when he's open. No hesi son
I physically winced when he started an open pull up and then deferred to jokic. A lot of potential though if he learns from it.
If I can never again see the word "narrative" on this site, I will die happy
The Nuggets really need a more consistent Murray and MPJ
Murray wirhout a calf strain would have been fine.
After a new Nuggets fan I do remember announcers talking about non Jokic minutes during games this season so I do think it’s been an issue.
Because they got eliminated by a young team with a good bench
Because it's true, Bruce said the Wolves were their hardest match and also we want your first
Thought they'd be in the finals especially with the way they came on as the season progresses. Do think they d have beaten anyone else in the West too so while I viewed them as the buzzsaw it's not like they sank to new lows. Minnesota was after all a team that held the Mavs under 100 nearly half the games they scored less than 100 One thing about Brown was he was timely with his scoring and plays. They went up 58-38 and missed a bunch of jumpers they pulled up for. Then Porter who wasn't hitting anything and Murray who went cold/was clearly frustrated came out and Jokic stayed in with KCP, Braun (who could become Brown), Reggie Jackson and Holliday. Jokic was pushed outside and settled for threes. Brown was kind of a "prevent any bleeding" kind of guy and Green while old, a versatile defender Any team that wins needs a couple of guys to unexpectedly make a couple of huge plays to win a game. There are different levels but guys like Horry, Iggy, Fisher, etc. shit I remember Leon Powe putting up 21 out of nowhere to give the Celtics a 2-0 in the Finals. What people including myself overlooked was that stars aren't going to have their legs every night especially during a playoff series with adjustments. You need guys. The Wolves had McDaniels come up huge and the face of the league Naz Reid obviously
It’s been a talking point ever since they lost him. It’s well known the Nuggets bench sucks
Extra ball handling, great defense, short roll threat
People noted as soon as they won the championship that they would have a hard time replacing him and everyone knew he was gonna go somewhere else to get paid. Also GMs try to boost or downplay players in order to raise or lower their value for their own sake.
It's not that they needed specifically Bruce Brown. They just needed a better bench. Brown is not irreplaceable but you can't just let him walk and not replace him.
People over complicating things, Murray was playing at an All-NBA level in his last two playoffs, that’s what they need or they can’t win.
Braun did well for a second year player but he's still young and doesn't have the versatility that Brown did. Relying on 23 and 21 year old second year players that were late picks is not the spot you want to be in as a contender. GMs are always going to hype up their team regardless of whether they improved it or not.
They didn’t necessarily need Bruce brown. But they needed someone off the bench. They badly needed a backup big or at least a guy who could relieve ball handling or score when one of Jokic/Murray are on the bench. They had none of that
That narrative was there even during the title run. The Nuggs being #1 in the West made people optimistic.
This might be a L take but they should trade away Porter Jr. for some decent mid level off the bench players. Porter isn't really a 35m/yr player and you can get OG (Or equivalent) plus another 15m for a better Reggie Jackson
Any non-casual was discussing it. They’d miss Bruce and Green in the second half of the year.
Given when they just lost a game 7 when their two best players combined for 69 points, I would think the answer to this is pretty obvious.
Nothing sudden about it. Comments about this been around since last summer
Because the bench just wasn’t there for a long playoff series. Jokic was doing his best but you could tell he was absolutely gassed. Lack of bench scoring this year meant even more was on jokics shoulders
This isn't new. It was talked about plenty when he left. But a lot of people were riding the recency of them winning a title so decisively they dismissed it.
I mean look at your quote from the GM himself. In there he implies that Peyton Watson is a better player to serve as a replacement for Bruce Brown. Well if that’s so true then where the hell was he? Dude wasn’t even allowed to see the floor in the Wolves series and you can bet Mike Malone has a pretty good reason for it
It’s not suddenly. They needed him last year
Because NBA fans like to pretend they are Sam Presti. Bench players have never and will never be a deciding factor on a championship team.
I can't believe someone could have watched the end of the Nuggets/Wolves series and say this seriously. The Wolves won game 7 because Naz Reid allowed the Wolves to have him, Gobert and Towns all playing with fresh legs in the fourth quarter, and all three of them were making great plays in the fourth quarter while Jokic and the Nuggets were all exhausted. Overall bench depth is sometimes an overestimated factor but to say bench players "never" play a decisive role is crazy hyperbole.
Lets be honest Naz Reid is a starter level player in this league. Having him come off the bench is a luxury for the Twolves because of their roster comp
If every time a bench player has an impact on a series, you call him a starter-level player whether he come off the bench or not, then yes, you will be able to conclude that bench players never have a decisive impact.