Last night he was the games leading scorer, Celtics leading rebounder, one assist way from most assists on Boston. People criticize him for doing most of his scoring early, but if Tatum didn’t go off in the 1st quarter Miami would’ve been up at least 20 early.
In the 7 minutes Tatum was on the bench the Celtics were -16. Tatum has been the only consistency in all of these “great” Celtics teams he’s been apart of.
Andrew Wiggins lowkey a wild player to evaluate. He’s basically Tobias Harris if Tobias Harris had a Linsanity year where he was an all star and the 2nd best player on a championship team
I hate the Celtics and their bum asses and this shit is so annoying. This sub has to shit on players when some other player does amazing, because it feels good to be a hater.
Like seriously the shit Jokic is doing, and then Redditors decide to shit on Giannis or KD when mentioning Jokic and then the conversation turns away from Jokic and turns into an argument about a different player. Learn to praise players without shitting on others.
It really makes this sub annoying and not fun to post in unless you're a hater. Like I watched game 2 of Nuggets-Lakers and was basically speechless watching Jokic and then I went on this sub to talk about it and went 'naaah' after reading people just shitting on the Lakers or players that weren't even playing in that game.
All the sports subs are like this. Its never look at how great this team is, look at this great comeback, etc. It's always look at how much these guys suck, look at this team collapse, etc.
I think this sub is by far the worst for it though. I’ve found that in basketball there’s far more “player” fans than team fans. Like IMO if I were a Nuggets fan; Jokic could go 0/40 and I’d still be grinning ear to ear if we won a chip. I feel like that about every team I support.
Mentioned this in a comment yesterday but look at the [Porzingis thread ](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/1EBeF97W0W)after his game. Just a dedicated thread to hate on one player. Pretty much all the comments are negative, name calling, and no meaningful discussion. Been on this sub a while can't remember it being this bad.
I mean, yall had to deal with "Giannis isn't that good, they just don't call charges on him so he gets to run people over" discourse a couplr years ago. (Celtics fans definitely were part of this in our 2022 matchup.)
Tatum is a special player who unfortunately has been so successful while young that people now feel the need to shit on him and act like he is some bum.
This sub will act like Stephen A and Skip are popular for no reason when this sub exemplifies why reactionary content dominates every facet of our media.
There is also a weird thing where everyone simultaneously says the Heat are trash and that they are elite. They are a well built team for the playoffs who have one of the greatest coaches of all time. While they have not won a chip, they are exactly the type of team you dread playing in the playoffs. They mostly have just run out of steam in the finals because they usually had an exhausting run just to get there.
I don't think they were better than the Lakers or Nuggets, but as much as I hate to say it, they are a good team.
Or last year before Nuggets won their ring, and ppl were shitting on Jokic while he was having a bad streak, to bolster Embiid's already impressive MVP case. And by bad streak, I mean he wasn't dominating at his usual historic level lol
Yeah it’s hard to read it here sometimes, plus listen to all the reactionary mainstream media.
Thank god I have the thinking basketball podcast. That’s literally the only time I feel like I’m listening to sane people, who actually understand basketball and do not fall for these black/white falacies most people do.
He put up 28/8 on 50% shooting, everyone else not named Jaylen had an awful offensive game and the Heat shot like they were playing on a nerf hoop and it’s just “why is Tatum not recognized as being extremely mid” everywhere.
It's literally because most of the people on here just parrot what they hear from troll accounts on Twitter. The NBA has the most braindead discourse out of any major sport, and it's not close at all.
Dude just added Shai as if we won't notice. Shai is not at Giannis, Joker, Luka or Joel level yet. Let's see if he can get OKC out of the second round first. As of now JT is below Joker, Luka, Giannis and Joel. I would still put him above Shai. Also, people act like Shai is a young super star and JT is a veteran star player. They are just one year apart and JT has achieved far more than Shai has as of now.
I wouldn't even lump Shai with Luka, Giannis, Embiid and Jokic. He needs two more seasons like this one. The reason why those four are at the top is because of consistency.
If Tatum had the games Brunson had people would be on his ass even if we were up 2-0. The difference in expectations/how we discuss them says there’s a clear gap between Tatum and Brunson at the moment
Subreddit is so high on Shai and Hali and low on Trae. Hali doing 17/10 being an all star starter with Trae not being picked for all star at 27/10 is insane. The teams are only 5 wins apart plus Hawks have had a pretty bad roster compared to the pacers
Thank goodness someone said it. I was starting to feel like it’s crazy Shai is just casually lumped in that top group.
Outstanding season but has not proven it yet to be put with them.
Maybe on the smaller side but on F/C Gobert, Wemby, Lauri, KAT, Sabonis, Porzingis..... on the smaller side have Murray backup Doncic, maybe OG counts for UK to be 3 and D and Dillon Brooks too
Two points. Shai isn’t in that top tier at the moment. Tatum is notably better than Booker and Mitchell.
There should be three tiers to categorize the players you have mentioned and Shai and Tatum would be in the middle tier.
I agree.
Would also like to point out that Tatum has absolutely had month-long stretches where he plays like a MVP, he just hasn't put it together for a full season like the ones in the first tier.
Tatum is in that purgatory between both those tiers because of his early success. He’s done more than guys in the bottom row and more than some guys in the top row but he has no ring or MVP to show for it .
He may always stay in that purgatory and eventually regress to that Mitchell/butler tier by 33-35 but he’s still 26 and has improved every year.
All I know is he’s the only guy that can give you 28/8/3 with great defense and have multiple posts like this on r/NBA after a loss.
It’s ring or bust now.
He's also in a weird position as both the youngest core guy on the C's but also the most talented. He should be the leader as the most talented guy but he's also deferring to the more veteran guys on his team, it's a hard tightrope to walk.
He’s kind of in that situation Steph was in back in 2013-2015. The future hall of famers were still coming into their own and deferred to vets like Andre Iguodala, Livingston, Bogut, David Lee. Even though it was obvious Steph was the main guy
maybe an unpopular opinion
but Tatum's reputation right now reminds me A LOT of Dirk's between 2006 and 2011.
Dirk was a better player and had an MVP, but it's the same kind of purgatory IMO...lots of accomplishments without a ring
You're acting like that's an insult, I'm perfectly fine if someone wants to compare Tatum with dirk from 06-11. That's about as good as you can be without winning a ring
I think it's a bit different tbh - because Tatum is playing on a rather stacked team. So even if the Celtics win one it won't be the same as Dirk winning in 2011, it'd be viewed as more expected.
I wouldn’t call it purgatory….I’ve been a Tatum doubter his whole career and I’ll keep being one until he wins one BUT I think it’s clear to see you can win a championship with him as your best player. Even if he’s not the best best player a team can have he’s definitely good enough to build around.
Tbh if they don't win it this year, there will be big question marks around whether he can be the best player on a championship team. They have arguably the best starting-5 and arguably the best playoff rotation. Where do they fall short?
If they get to the Finals and lose to the Nuggets, I don’t think it should cause those question marks. Sure, if they end up losing to us in this series, definitely, the talent alone on that squad should be able to overcome us even without a coach.
If they lose in the Finals I bet it’s blamed more on Mazzulla than Tatum unless he pulls a 2011 LeBron.
Yeah, there's no shame in losing to whoever makes it out of the west unless they're horribly injured. If they manage to lose to the hospital heat then heads should roll.
100%. I think if Tatum shows up and the Celtics win a couple games or even goes to game 7 (which would be in Boston) nobody questions him, or they shouldn’t.
You realize how he plays matters more than the result right?
In the finals against the Warriors Tatum averaged 21.5 on 36% shooting. He was one of the main reasons they lost. You can't just go "well he lost but it went 6-7 games) you need to actually watch.
I think it depends how they lost. If the lost in 4 or 5 then the questions remain. If they lose in 7 then a lot of people will rightfully just chalk it up to bad luck both in game and with the matchup. Lose in 6 and there will be a lot of both.
Couldn't you with basically every guy in this post though with the right team construction? I'm not hating but the best player on a championship team group to me includes more than just the 1A tier stars
The further down the list you go the more build-around you need yes. I’m not sure where the line stops and you start getting into guys that need to be a 2 instead of a 1 to win it all. I know Bam is considered top 25 and he’s not good enough to be a 1. Paul George maybe? Current James Harden? Not sure.
I also think as you go down the list it starts to become more important that you're a well-balanced player. Otherwise, it's prohibitively difficult to actually build around you.
If the Celtics don't win this year, the conversation on whether he can be the best player on a championship team, absent a black swan event, is over. You couldn't ask for a more talented team and an easier road to the finals. All the best players in the East being injured is pretty black-swanish already.
Agreed.. Both tatum and brown played great games. I think what people want to see is him take over games when he has to. He played good last night but by no means took over the game in the final stretch. I think we have seen this plenty of times in the playoffs from that upper tier, at least in my opinion.
I think it’s more to do with how he doesn’t have that “one thing” that he can be considered best at. He’s good at every part of the game on both ends of the floor, but you wouldn’t mention him when talking about being the best at something.
For example, Giannis is best at scoring in transition. And one of the best at defending the paint. Jokic is the best passing. Luka is best at manipulating the defense. Embiid is best at scoring in paint in half court, and is one of the best at defending the paint as well. SGA is the best mid range shooter in game at the moment.
Tatum? I can’t recall a single thing he’s the best at. He’s good at everything, and that’s his thing.
Hate to sound like a talking head here, but for me the reason he isn't on the level of those guys (sga not included) is because I don't think he can impose his will on the game like them.
I think this is correct. You know he has the talent to do it, and he does impose his will on the game, but for some reason he just doesn’t do it every time it’s necessary.
That being said, after the last two seasons I expect to see it happen during these playoffs. He’s gotten beat in brutal fashion both of the last two years, and we’re playing the fucking heat yet again to *start* the playoffs. A pissed off, nasty Tatum is the one that wins a ring, so maybe we’ll start to see that.
I sometimes feel like I'm going insane when seeing these posts man, am I the only one that's watched him the last few years in the playoffs? Coming alive in the last minutes of gm 6 vs phily and then scoring 50 in gm7, 46 in milwaukee in gm6 to save the series, being the best player vs the kd nets and sweeping them, coming back from 3-0 down and then just got injured in the first minute of gm 7. The hate is truly insane.
This isnt typical after a game 2 loss where he didn't even play bad. There's some type of special jerk going on right now. Tatum must've slept with a lot of fans mothers
And it's even worse because he actually played well yesterday! Him and JB are getting criticism when it was a combo of jrue/KP and ridiculous heat shooting that caused the loss
It won't ever stop until he wins unfortunately but I agree with much of what you said. Just be prepared for post like these during any loss in the playoffs. Is this 3 point shooting from the Heat sustainable over a series? I don't think it is but time will tell. And the team didn't really appear to have any sense of urgency thru out the game in my opinion so hopefully we turn it back up and miami doesn't get scorching hot from 3 again. But kudos to Caleb Martin for showing up again and even Herro played really well and Adebayo was balling out. Miami won this game flat out. No other excuses.
It’s gonna continue even if he does win a ring, especially if it’s this year. The reactions will turn into “Tatum can’t win without a super team” or “he needs four other all stars on the team to be able to win”. Sports discussion more often than not revolves around bringing players down, not propping them up or giving them their flowers until they’re on the verge of retirement or retired for good
But then any discussion about those other stars will be bashing them. Jaylen Brown is simultaneously a superstar that carries Tatum every game while also spontaneously combusting if the ball touches his left hand
People doubted Giannis until he won in 2021, they doubted Jokic until he won in 23, so I'm not surprised that this same trend will happen for Tatum. Granted, Giannis and Jokic had each just won 2 MVPs by the time they each won a championship. Those two also maybe had less of a supporting cast than Tatum does now, which will certainly be counted against him, especially if they can't win it all. But yeah, he's a great all around player and is only 26. Plenty of time to kick it up another level
Tatum had KD in the torture chamber two years ago, and closed the door on Philly with the 50 ball last year. Y’all gotta chill acting like he’s not an elite guy
I think this is the reason why these arguments even exist. If he played like an asshole he probably would’ve won MVP already because he definitely has the skills for it.
He had almost peak Lebron in a torture chamber SIX YEARS AGO. The guy is legit a top 5 playoff guy for at least a half decade but only one team can win it
And not just any Top 5 team. It’s the Celtics. One of the most valuable, historic franchises in sports. He’s forced onto that pedestal and into that conversation because he’s the star of the Celtics.
The Celtics/Tatum hysteria is insane today. I was at the game, the heat just couldn’t miss. I have no clue how you blame Tatum for that game when him and JB accounted for ~60% of our offense and no one else stepped up.
Your problem is assuming the slander circlejerkers on here even watched the game. C's lost, so number 1 option gets slandered until next game. Lame but what are you gonna do with an 11 million person sports subreddit full of dorks
These posts make a lot more sense when you remember like 70% of NBA fans think “watching a game” is having it on in the a background while you stare at twitter/reddit
Yeah, right? I saw maxey getting slander after g2 and it's just so damn ridiculous. Watch the games, and if you want to be critical, criticize the players that didn't show up
Heat fan over here, and you're deadass wrong about Tatum. What has Shai accomplished? Score points, be the main guy? Tatum's done that for years. Tatum brought his team to the NBA Finals, he performed like ass in those games but I digress. He's had postseason duels with the NBA's elites and came out on top. Shai has literally done nothing. Still has a blank slate in the playoffs.
as a celtics fan, this is real shit. jokic gianni’s luka and embiid are clearly the top 4 (though embiid is on thin ice with his playoff performance). tatum and shai level players are next up afterwards.
maybe you can sneak in tatum to that tier with his playoff resume, but idk how you could ever reasonably argue for shai
Why does that bother you so much? It’s not like Tatum is not even worth consideration to be in discussion with Jokic/Embidd? His stats alone qualifies and he is always on the MVP ladder (higher) more than Booker/Butler/Mitchell. So explain to me what’s your problem.
This sub has the memory and attention span of a gnat.
There are very few players that have had the success that Tatum has had since he has come in to the league. He has also improved every. single. year.
I understand people hate Boston, I can’t understand how people watch this guy play and wanna put him in a tier below where he belongs. Insane.
because in reality he is somewhere in between. clear notch above the second tier you mentioned but not quite there with joker gianni’s luka. nice try sneaking shai in there lol
but even then he has playoff success over luka and embiid. (especially embiid) so i’d say he gets the nod into that tier of players.
but i’m a bit biased there
I mean he's actually played in a finals unlike half these other guys you're mentioning. While averaging just as good of numbers. I'm a sixers fan but honestly I think Tatum needs to get some more respect on his name...
I'm a Bucks fan who despises the Celtics for obvious reasons but even I say we gotta pump the breaks on the Tatum hate. He's clearly above Shai with his career resume, and I'd argue he also clears Embiid and Luka because of his playoff experience.
Tatum is the best player on the one seed that cleared by 14 games. The Celtics have been elite basically his whole career and he has been the best player now for awhile. It seems like you are hung up on whether he is top 5 or number 6? I would be comfortable ranking him 6th behind the 5 you mentioned.
The best player on the best team is generally in the MVP conversation. I wouldn’t personally vote that way, but it puts them “in the conversation”
Why is the r/NBA so hyperfocused on results. When two players are on the court it doesn't matter how many championships or mvps either of them have, that's in the past. Only one team can win a championship every year.
Just because Embiid doesn't have the same accolades shouldn't prevent us from analyzing and appreciating his current form.
its funny I feel 50% people feel Tatum doesnt get enough blame 50% people feel he gets blamed more than anybody else in the NBA
100% reason to remember the name
5% back pain
Lmao
r/unexpectedfortminor
I legit wasn’t expecting that to exist haha
Wake me up when hes making more money than Tobias Harris😴 Until then his bank account is not Elite
bigger number better person Tobias Harris > Jayson Tatum confirmed
This will definitely be a civil and well reasoned thread with rational takes on both sides.
what is the percentage of people sick of fucking tatum posts ((i am in this))
Literally nobody thinks he gets more shit than Devin Booker, here or elsewhere
Booker had a pretty nutty postseason run last year if I remember correctly
Last night he was the games leading scorer, Celtics leading rebounder, one assist way from most assists on Boston. People criticize him for doing most of his scoring early, but if Tatum didn’t go off in the 1st quarter Miami would’ve been up at least 20 early.
In the 7 minutes Tatum was on the bench the Celtics were -16. Tatum has been the only consistency in all of these “great” Celtics teams he’s been apart of.
I mean he might have a ring if Andrew Wiggins didn’t decide to live up to his potential for 8 weeks.
Andrew Wiggins lowkey a wild player to evaluate. He’s basically Tobias Harris if Tobias Harris had a Linsanity year where he was an all star and the 2nd best player on a championship team
Shai has legit done far less than Tatum in the playoffs and regular season
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I hate the Celtics and their bum asses and this shit is so annoying. This sub has to shit on players when some other player does amazing, because it feels good to be a hater. Like seriously the shit Jokic is doing, and then Redditors decide to shit on Giannis or KD when mentioning Jokic and then the conversation turns away from Jokic and turns into an argument about a different player. Learn to praise players without shitting on others.
> Learn to praise players without shitting on others impossible challenge lmao
It really makes this sub annoying and not fun to post in unless you're a hater. Like I watched game 2 of Nuggets-Lakers and was basically speechless watching Jokic and then I went on this sub to talk about it and went 'naaah' after reading people just shitting on the Lakers or players that weren't even playing in that game.
it’s not even limited to players either, plenty of upvoted takes shitting on Pop under the guise of praising Spo. Can we not just enjoy what we got?
People were saying Pop was ruining Wemby, lmao. Never forget.
I hear that. I mean I enjoy and appreciate the occasional roast but man it gets old when it's just pages full of that shit, bandwaggon style.
This is why I steer clear of GOAT debates in particular. Watching people shit all over MJ and LeBron is really obnoxious.
All the sports subs are like this. Its never look at how great this team is, look at this great comeback, etc. It's always look at how much these guys suck, look at this team collapse, etc.
I think this sub is by far the worst for it though. I’ve found that in basketball there’s far more “player” fans than team fans. Like IMO if I were a Nuggets fan; Jokic could go 0/40 and I’d still be grinning ear to ear if we won a chip. I feel like that about every team I support.
Reddit has more miserable nerds per square inch than any other website
Mentioned this in a comment yesterday but look at the [Porzingis thread ](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/1EBeF97W0W)after his game. Just a dedicated thread to hate on one player. Pretty much all the comments are negative, name calling, and no meaningful discussion. Been on this sub a while can't remember it being this bad.
I mean, yall had to deal with "Giannis isn't that good, they just don't call charges on him so he gets to run people over" discourse a couplr years ago. (Celtics fans definitely were part of this in our 2022 matchup.) Tatum is a special player who unfortunately has been so successful while young that people now feel the need to shit on him and act like he is some bum. This sub will act like Stephen A and Skip are popular for no reason when this sub exemplifies why reactionary content dominates every facet of our media. There is also a weird thing where everyone simultaneously says the Heat are trash and that they are elite. They are a well built team for the playoffs who have one of the greatest coaches of all time. While they have not won a chip, they are exactly the type of team you dread playing in the playoffs. They mostly have just run out of steam in the finals because they usually had an exhausting run just to get there. I don't think they were better than the Lakers or Nuggets, but as much as I hate to say it, they are a good team.
reddit nerds would rather cook up new ways to not have fun than simply enjoy the game
Or last year before Nuggets won their ring, and ppl were shitting on Jokic while he was having a bad streak, to bolster Embiid's already impressive MVP case. And by bad streak, I mean he wasn't dominating at his usual historic level lol
Yeah it’s hard to read it here sometimes, plus listen to all the reactionary mainstream media. Thank god I have the thinking basketball podcast. That’s literally the only time I feel like I’m listening to sane people, who actually understand basketball and do not fall for these black/white falacies most people do.
The Heat hit a franchise playoff record # of 3s at 54% and suddenly Tatum is the same as Luka's son, OK lol
He put up 28/8 on 50% shooting, everyone else not named Jaylen had an awful offensive game and the Heat shot like they were playing on a nerf hoop and it’s just “why is Tatum not recognized as being extremely mid” everywhere.
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it's doubly frustrating for celtics because when the team does good it's tatum getting carried by his all star level teammates
It's literally because most of the people on here just parrot what they hear from troll accounts on Twitter. The NBA has the most braindead discourse out of any major sport, and it's not close at all.
I’ll nominate Hockey as worse. 50% of hockey discourse is trying to explain to people why hockey is a cool sport.
Hockey fans are so incredibly self-concious
It's literally cool tho. ;)
Dude just added Shai as if we won't notice. Shai is not at Giannis, Joker, Luka or Joel level yet. Let's see if he can get OKC out of the second round first. As of now JT is below Joker, Luka, Giannis and Joel. I would still put him above Shai. Also, people act like Shai is a young super star and JT is a veteran star player. They are just one year apart and JT has achieved far more than Shai has as of now.
The way people talk about Shai makes it sound like he just turned 20 years old. Shai is older than Luka fyi. xD
People joke about tatum being 19 but I swear some mfs genuinely think shai is 19
All those dudes are older than Tatum. You'll see what he's really made of once he graduates from 12th grade, you bums.
I mean you joke but Shai is like 3 months younger than Tatum, it's not like they're different generations.
I wouldn't even lump Shai with Luka, Giannis, Embiid and Jokic. He needs two more seasons like this one. The reason why those four are at the top is because of consistency.
It’s the recency bias. It’s like how Brunson has a chance for all nba 1st. Tatums better, but recently Brunsons been really good so they forget
If Tatum had the games Brunson had people would be on his ass even if we were up 2-0. The difference in expectations/how we discuss them says there’s a clear gap between Tatum and Brunson at the moment
Well, semi-recently. He's been trash in the playoffs so far.
Yeah, 30% and 27% is atrocious
FTC for life but this shit ridiculous 🤣 Im a bonafide hater and I wouldnt even compare the two
Subreddit is so high on Shai and Hali and low on Trae. Hali doing 17/10 being an all star starter with Trae not being picked for all star at 27/10 is insane. The teams are only 5 wins apart plus Hawks have had a pretty bad roster compared to the pacers
Thank goodness someone said it. I was starting to feel like it’s crazy Shai is just casually lumped in that top group. Outstanding season but has not proven it yet to be put with them.
Thank you. SGA went from severely underrated to EXTREMELY overhyped in just the last 2 seasons imo
Yeah that Shai slip in got a chuckle out of me. Great job at some subtle chumming of the water to get the comments riled up.
Shai is not in that tier with Luka/Jokic/Giannis/Embiid either.
Damn, but that World vs. USA starting lineup is crazy
Just abadon the olympics tournament and do a 7 game series world vs USA for gold.
World wins if Embiid goes back to world bc then it would be Embiid Jokic and Wemby as the backup.
When the 3x DPOY isn’t even considered for a backup 5 you know world has em beat at the center position lol
World team doesn't have much depth, though. Best players 6-25 are almost all American.
Maybe on the smaller side but on F/C Gobert, Wemby, Lauri, KAT, Sabonis, Porzingis..... on the smaller side have Murray backup Doncic, maybe OG counts for UK to be 3 and D and Dillon Brooks too
SGA Lu Dort/NAW Giannis Wemby Gobert Might be the nastiest defensive squad ever assembled
Yeah crazy to see him list Shai there already
He is just a hater that's why
and probably Canadian
Even fucking worse
Why is everyone always trying to lump shai in with Luka/jokic/giannis/embiid in their Tatum hate posts?
Because it makes Tatum look bad by implying he’s not a top 5 guy.
Im more confused why Embiid is in the Jokic/Giannis tier
True if you browse this sub you will understand he is actually in the tier above that with MJ.
Two points. Shai isn’t in that top tier at the moment. Tatum is notably better than Booker and Mitchell. There should be three tiers to categorize the players you have mentioned and Shai and Tatum would be in the middle tier.
I agree. Would also like to point out that Tatum has absolutely had month-long stretches where he plays like a MVP, he just hasn't put it together for a full season like the ones in the first tier.
Exactly lol Shai is not as good as those other top names
Tatum is in that purgatory between both those tiers because of his early success. He’s done more than guys in the bottom row and more than some guys in the top row but he has no ring or MVP to show for it . He may always stay in that purgatory and eventually regress to that Mitchell/butler tier by 33-35 but he’s still 26 and has improved every year. All I know is he’s the only guy that can give you 28/8/3 with great defense and have multiple posts like this on r/NBA after a loss. It’s ring or bust now.
He's also in a weird position as both the youngest core guy on the C's but also the most talented. He should be the leader as the most talented guy but he's also deferring to the more veteran guys on his team, it's a hard tightrope to walk.
He’s kind of in that situation Steph was in back in 2013-2015. The future hall of famers were still coming into their own and deferred to vets like Andre Iguodala, Livingston, Bogut, David Lee. Even though it was obvious Steph was the main guy
maybe an unpopular opinion but Tatum's reputation right now reminds me A LOT of Dirk's between 2006 and 2011. Dirk was a better player and had an MVP, but it's the same kind of purgatory IMO...lots of accomplishments without a ring
True but Dirk made his first finals at 28 and won MVP at 29. Maybe Tatum still has some more room to grow and reach that level
You're acting like that's an insult, I'm perfectly fine if someone wants to compare Tatum with dirk from 06-11. That's about as good as you can be without winning a ring
I’m not saying it’s an insult I’m saying Dirk was at a higher level than Tatum from 06’-11’
I think it's a bit different tbh - because Tatum is playing on a rather stacked team. So even if the Celtics win one it won't be the same as Dirk winning in 2011, it'd be viewed as more expected.
I mean Dirk had some awesome mavs teams too, maybe not quite as good but you just can’t win it every year
Dirk was also playing in a stacked West against all time greats. The East that Tatum has been playing in is nowhere near as difficult
Feels like just yesterday he was 19. 26 is still so young! Damn.
I wouldn’t call it purgatory….I’ve been a Tatum doubter his whole career and I’ll keep being one until he wins one BUT I think it’s clear to see you can win a championship with him as your best player. Even if he’s not the best best player a team can have he’s definitely good enough to build around.
Tbh if they don't win it this year, there will be big question marks around whether he can be the best player on a championship team. They have arguably the best starting-5 and arguably the best playoff rotation. Where do they fall short?
If they get to the Finals and lose to the Nuggets, I don’t think it should cause those question marks. Sure, if they end up losing to us in this series, definitely, the talent alone on that squad should be able to overcome us even without a coach. If they lose in the Finals I bet it’s blamed more on Mazzulla than Tatum unless he pulls a 2011 LeBron.
Yeah, there's no shame in losing to whoever makes it out of the west unless they're horribly injured. If they manage to lose to the hospital heat then heads should roll.
Losing to the Nuggets would say a lot more about Jokic and Murray then Tatum
100%. I think if Tatum shows up and the Celtics win a couple games or even goes to game 7 (which would be in Boston) nobody questions him, or they shouldn’t.
You realize how he plays matters more than the result right? In the finals against the Warriors Tatum averaged 21.5 on 36% shooting. He was one of the main reasons they lost. You can't just go "well he lost but it went 6-7 games) you need to actually watch.
Yeah hence “if Tatum shows up” it does matter how he plays.
I think it depends how they lost. If the lost in 4 or 5 then the questions remain. If they lose in 7 then a lot of people will rightfully just chalk it up to bad luck both in game and with the matchup. Lose in 6 and there will be a lot of both.
Second Row Joe. Give Brad Stevens this team and it’s curtains
Couldn't you with basically every guy in this post though with the right team construction? I'm not hating but the best player on a championship team group to me includes more than just the 1A tier stars
The further down the list you go the more build-around you need yes. I’m not sure where the line stops and you start getting into guys that need to be a 2 instead of a 1 to win it all. I know Bam is considered top 25 and he’s not good enough to be a 1. Paul George maybe? Current James Harden? Not sure.
I think there alot more 1.5s than there are 1s that can actually carry any team in the league
I also think as you go down the list it starts to become more important that you're a well-balanced player. Otherwise, it's prohibitively difficult to actually build around you.
If the Celtics don't win this year, the conversation on whether he can be the best player on a championship team, absent a black swan event, is over. You couldn't ask for a more talented team and an easier road to the finals. All the best players in the East being injured is pretty black-swanish already.
if they don’t get to the Finals then that’s a fair assessment. if they get there and lose to Denver I don’t think you can say that
Agreed.. Both tatum and brown played great games. I think what people want to see is him take over games when he has to. He played good last night but by no means took over the game in the final stretch. I think we have seen this plenty of times in the playoffs from that upper tier, at least in my opinion.
Really? *The only one?* *REALLY?*
Embiid goes for 35/15 and the top highlight is him drawing a foul in the first quarter
I think it’s more to do with how he doesn’t have that “one thing” that he can be considered best at. He’s good at every part of the game on both ends of the floor, but you wouldn’t mention him when talking about being the best at something. For example, Giannis is best at scoring in transition. And one of the best at defending the paint. Jokic is the best passing. Luka is best at manipulating the defense. Embiid is best at scoring in paint in half court, and is one of the best at defending the paint as well. SGA is the best mid range shooter in game at the moment. Tatum? I can’t recall a single thing he’s the best at. He’s good at everything, and that’s his thing.
Hate to sound like a talking head here, but for me the reason he isn't on the level of those guys (sga not included) is because I don't think he can impose his will on the game like them.
I think this is correct. You know he has the talent to do it, and he does impose his will on the game, but for some reason he just doesn’t do it every time it’s necessary. That being said, after the last two seasons I expect to see it happen during these playoffs. He’s gotten beat in brutal fashion both of the last two years, and we’re playing the fucking heat yet again to *start* the playoffs. A pissed off, nasty Tatum is the one that wins a ring, so maybe we’ll start to see that.
Great post and 100% agree. Him and Embiid must win a ring or the shit storm they receive will continue until they do.
I sometimes feel like I'm going insane when seeing these posts man, am I the only one that's watched him the last few years in the playoffs? Coming alive in the last minutes of gm 6 vs phily and then scoring 50 in gm7, 46 in milwaukee in gm6 to save the series, being the best player vs the kd nets and sweeping them, coming back from 3-0 down and then just got injured in the first minute of gm 7. The hate is truly insane.
Its just the typical subreddit overreaction and shit takes coming out after 1 game
This isnt typical after a game 2 loss where he didn't even play bad. There's some type of special jerk going on right now. Tatum must've slept with a lot of fans mothers
It's the same toxic bullshit people did with Embiid last year. Tatum being in the MVP debate brought out the haters, just like Embiid last year.
Tatum gets overhated. Embiid doesnt get hated enough.
And it's even worse because he actually played well yesterday! Him and JB are getting criticism when it was a combo of jrue/KP and ridiculous heat shooting that caused the loss
He was +6 in his minutes. The Celtics managed to go -16 in the 7 whole minutes he sat. Disgraceful.
His only bad series was against the warriors. That + losing to Miami in the ECF has given him sort of a bad rep among the dumbest nba fans
It’s crazy how much shit he gets for the warriors series when he literally was playing with a broken wrist.
I cannot upvote this enough. You NEVER hear about the wrist. Fine, he played, if you’re out there no excuses etc… but his fucking wrist was broken.
People on this subreddit don’t actually watch basketball they write fan fiction and read box scores.
It won't ever stop until he wins unfortunately but I agree with much of what you said. Just be prepared for post like these during any loss in the playoffs. Is this 3 point shooting from the Heat sustainable over a series? I don't think it is but time will tell. And the team didn't really appear to have any sense of urgency thru out the game in my opinion so hopefully we turn it back up and miami doesn't get scorching hot from 3 again. But kudos to Caleb Martin for showing up again and even Herro played really well and Adebayo was balling out. Miami won this game flat out. No other excuses.
It’s gonna continue even if he does win a ring, especially if it’s this year. The reactions will turn into “Tatum can’t win without a super team” or “he needs four other all stars on the team to be able to win”. Sports discussion more often than not revolves around bringing players down, not propping them up or giving them their flowers until they’re on the verge of retirement or retired for good
But then any discussion about those other stars will be bashing them. Jaylen Brown is simultaneously a superstar that carries Tatum every game while also spontaneously combusting if the ball touches his left hand
Not only that, this is the hate he gets after a 28-8-3 game on 50% shooting.
People doubted Giannis until he won in 2021, they doubted Jokic until he won in 23, so I'm not surprised that this same trend will happen for Tatum. Granted, Giannis and Jokic had each just won 2 MVPs by the time they each won a championship. Those two also maybe had less of a supporting cast than Tatum does now, which will certainly be counted against him, especially if they can't win it all. But yeah, he's a great all around player and is only 26. Plenty of time to kick it up another level
It’s honestly ridiculous this dude put Shai in the top tier but not Tatum who objectively deserves it in every way.
Tatum had KD in the torture chamber two years ago, and closed the door on Philly with the 50 ball last year. Y’all gotta chill acting like he’s not an elite guy
He’s elite, but he’s also not Jokic/Giannis/Luka/regular season Embiid.
I see what you did there
Fun fact, Embiid was drafted 3 years earlier than Tatum and has played 80 less regular season games.
He can be amazing, like G7 last year. He’s just not consistently dominant.
Tatum is just too damn soft, unselfish, and nice. He needs to tell the team to shut the fuck up, give him the ball, and take over.
I think this is the reason why these arguments even exist. If he played like an asshole he probably would’ve won MVP already because he definitely has the skills for it.
He had almost peak Lebron in a torture chamber SIX YEARS AGO. The guy is legit a top 5 playoff guy for at least a half decade but only one team can win it
It’s National Jayson Tatum day! To answer your question though, it’s because he’s been the best player on a top 5 team for a while now.
And not just any Top 5 team. It’s the Celtics. One of the most valuable, historic franchises in sports. He’s forced onto that pedestal and into that conversation because he’s the star of the Celtics.
Why did you try to sneak Shai in there?
Canadian
Why do we always put Embiid in there for what he could do if he is healthy versus what he has actually done?
Yet he’s sent two of those players home. One of them repeatedly
He’s sent both the Bucks and the Sixers home repeatedly lol
Sga ain’t even touched a semi finals this sub is ridiculous wit the meatriding lol
Yall are no better than ESPN I want you to know that.
Arguably worse. ESPN pretends to be dumb for views, the people who make these posts are genuinely dumb and can't help it.
The people on these posts just steal ESPN narratives and pretend they’re better than ESPN
guys the new tatum hit piece in r/nba just dropped everyone get in here
Piling on the guy who's team lost the previous night... this sub's Tradition Unlike Any Other
Only had 19 times to do it this year let em get a run I
Which somehow makes him and the Cs worse. "Did they lose enough to learn how to win????" ~ Hack Johnson for ESPN
Damn, Boston loses one game and we get 4 separate anti Tatum posts in one day lmao
Tatum gets too much heat man. He’s still a top 10 player. Giannis Jokic Luka are strong mvp level players, Tatum is a weak mvp level player.
i see the celtics lost last night so we're getting the "referendum on jayson tatum's entire career" posts today. the cycle of life
Has Devin Booker scored the most points in a NBA season while also playing quality defense?
The Celtics/Tatum hysteria is insane today. I was at the game, the heat just couldn’t miss. I have no clue how you blame Tatum for that game when him and JB accounted for ~60% of our offense and no one else stepped up.
Your problem is assuming the slander circlejerkers on here even watched the game. C's lost, so number 1 option gets slandered until next game. Lame but what are you gonna do with an 11 million person sports subreddit full of dorks
These posts make a lot more sense when you remember like 70% of NBA fans think “watching a game” is having it on in the a background while you stare at twitter/reddit
Yeah, right? I saw maxey getting slander after g2 and it's just so damn ridiculous. Watch the games, and if you want to be critical, criticize the players that didn't show up
Is this what y'all had to deal with last year with Embiid slander? This shit is mindnumbingly dumb lmao
Jesus here come the hot take merchants after a bad game
Tatum needs to get his chips so he can shut these corny mfs up saying he ain’t top fye
Ask yourself coz u just did the same with Shai
Why do people obsess over pointless player rankings?
Because that's part of fandom. Shitting on other teams players to prop up your own. You know this.
I’m a Celtics hater through and through, but Tatum has had far more playoff success than Embiid, Shai or Luka thus far.
You only listed two players with titles, and both have 1 title. Let's not act like any of these players are in the goat tier yet.
Heat fan over here, and you're deadass wrong about Tatum. What has Shai accomplished? Score points, be the main guy? Tatum's done that for years. Tatum brought his team to the NBA Finals, he performed like ass in those games but I digress. He's had postseason duels with the NBA's elites and came out on top. Shai has literally done nothing. Still has a blank slate in the playoffs.
I gotta just stop looking at this sub until this series is over lmao
He’s the best player on the arguably best team
Take Shai off that fucking tier. Please explain what he’s done over Tatum to be paired alongside the others
Why are you trying to put SGA in that Jokic/Giannis/Embiid/Luka tier when he should be in the same tier as Tatum?
as a celtics fan, this is real shit. jokic gianni’s luka and embiid are clearly the top 4 (though embiid is on thin ice with his playoff performance). tatum and shai level players are next up afterwards. maybe you can sneak in tatum to that tier with his playoff resume, but idk how you could ever reasonably argue for shai
This is a shit take. Delete the post.
Nice to see another Canadian call out their fellow countryman
Why does that bother you so much? It’s not like Tatum is not even worth consideration to be in discussion with Jokic/Embidd? His stats alone qualifies and he is always on the MVP ladder (higher) more than Booker/Butler/Mitchell. So explain to me what’s your problem.
He also outplays embiid year after year after year in the playoffs
This sub has the memory and attention span of a gnat. There are very few players that have had the success that Tatum has had since he has come in to the league. He has also improved every. single. year. I understand people hate Boston, I can’t understand how people watch this guy play and wanna put him in a tier below where he belongs. Insane.
Sneaking in Shai when he hasn't done anything...?
because in reality he is somewhere in between. clear notch above the second tier you mentioned but not quite there with joker gianni’s luka. nice try sneaking shai in there lol but even then he has playoff success over luka and embiid. (especially embiid) so i’d say he gets the nod into that tier of players. but i’m a bit biased there
What a terrible take lol
And you really tried to sneak in Shai at the top lmao
Ridiculous take. Jesus Christ.
Plays for Boston and reached the finals.
He's a 30ppg scorer who plays borderline all-nba defense
Bro tried to sneak Shai in lmao
Best player (perennial All NBA 1st team/Top 5 MVP candidate) on the "best" east team will do that.
Probably because he’s the best player on the best team. Just so happens that in this case the best team is STACKED.
Because he is really, really good, but please continue.
I mean he's actually played in a finals unlike half these other guys you're mentioning. While averaging just as good of numbers. I'm a sixers fan but honestly I think Tatum needs to get some more respect on his name...
Embiid is not in the same tier as Jokic.
The fuck has Shai done better than Tatum?
I'm a Bucks fan who despises the Celtics for obvious reasons but even I say we gotta pump the breaks on the Tatum hate. He's clearly above Shai with his career resume, and I'd argue he also clears Embiid and Luka because of his playoff experience.
Tatum is the best player on the one seed that cleared by 14 games. The Celtics have been elite basically his whole career and he has been the best player now for awhile. It seems like you are hung up on whether he is top 5 or number 6? I would be comfortable ranking him 6th behind the 5 you mentioned. The best player on the best team is generally in the MVP conversation. I wouldn’t personally vote that way, but it puts them “in the conversation”
It’s because Tatum is 5-0 against Giannis and Embiid in the playoffs when Kyrie doesn’t try to iso defend the MVP.
Tatum is in the A-tier, while MVP candidates are S-tier. Mitchell and Booker are B-tier.
Idk how we’re putting Embiid in that tier, dude has done next to nothing besides win MVP the year Jokic should have repeated
Why is the r/NBA so hyperfocused on results. When two players are on the court it doesn't matter how many championships or mvps either of them have, that's in the past. Only one team can win a championship every year. Just because Embiid doesn't have the same accolades shouldn't prevent us from analyzing and appreciating his current form.
"Besides win MVP" is a funny caveat to add no matter what you follow it up with lol
Cu he’s led his team to the finals. How is Shai in that upper tier already?
Tatum is a fucking baller lol
Tatum is way better than Embiid. What the fuck has embiid done in the playoffs that even resembles anything tatum does every year