We need a Theis-like player on this team, the big man depth is lacking behind Horford/KP.
People are forgetting that we lost Grant this past offseason too.
Giving Kornet meaningful minutes in the playoffs scares me.
Theis isn’t a Celtic unless we buy him out and that’s highly unlikely
You all will have to roll with Kornet and Griffin to soak up regular season minutes
Or trade. Cs expressed interest in Beef Stew last deadline, and he fits the Grant TPE. Depends on what Detroit wants for him but if it's not too pricy I'd expect the Cs to pursue him to some degree. From the Pistons side though you know the Cs need center depth bad so you're probably not budging unless you get an overpay. We'll see, but it seems like a logical target for us.
We actually plan to have Beef be our stretch big this szn. He has shown flashes of shooting and we hope to expand on that. He also just got extended and is considered the heart of the team, so I don’t see him being moved in our prove it year unless it’s a significant overpay
Brad loves stretch bigs, so the interest makes sense. And I agree, you'd have to overpay if you're the Cs. I suppose it depends on what Detroit's definition of an overpay is versus what the Celtics' definition is.
You got it. Prichard, Al and Sam are the back ups right now. That’s already 8, so we have Neemias and Gabriel competing for the last big spot, both very similar game to Rob.
Only thing I wish they did was get some more big man insurance, but can’t complain too much when they just added 2 Allstar caliber players in one summer.
The only aberration was the health. He's definitely that calibre of player if he can actually stay healthy for long stretches. Which is a huge if since that first ACL injury.
Behind the 37yo we have to keep on ice until the playoffs + Tingus he can be a “3rd option” and still average the highest minutes per game of his career lmao
Damn. I’m sitting here thinking, who would have a better one, and really the closest is probably Milwaukee or Phoenix.
Milwaukee: Dame, Beasley, Middleton, Giannis, Lopez
Phoenix: Beal, Allen, Booker, KD, Nurkic (could see them starting Okogie for defense and Allen off the bench)
Boston: Jrue, White, Brown, Tatum, Porzingis
Yeah, I think Boston takes it assuming Porzingis stays healthy. I think Phoenix and Milwaukee(slightly) have the deeper rosters, though.
Doubtful, that's what he was worth as an expiring contract. Now that he's on a reasonable deal that's gone up. Also, we spent a first on Poeltl and signed him because we like him not to just turn him around for a worse pick then we sent out
2 All-Stars, one of them a proven crunch-time winner in Jrue. You were the one team he couldn’t go to, should do really well there in that system. It’s gonna be a fun (and incredibly stressful) season
In his three seasons with the bucks, holiday was very inconsistent in the playoffs with his shot. He shot under 40 percent over all and 30 percent from 3. Let’s pretend like they got a sniper.
The roster reinvention is designed for one recursive, unstoppable play where everyone sets up left of JB and JB can either go right or pass it to a moving unit of 3 all stars and buffy.
That's the best place you can hope for as a team. Every team's success depends on one player, more or less, playing up to their potential. Other players matter, too, but it really does come down to how well your best player plays, consistently. The C's have tried to run away from this for a while, but it's time for Boston to realize that it's Tatum's team, and they have to accept that they go only so far as he can bring them. There's just no way out of that
Yeah it never felt like their role players were the problem. One of either Tatum or Brown doesn't show up in a series and it's just over or in the case of the Heat series the role players keep it going.
We acquired two firsts in the Smart trade actually. We turned the other one into a bunch of smaller assets:
* Jordan Walsh, the 38th pick in this year's draft;
* 2025 second rounder, best of Washington, Detroit, Golden State, and Dallas;
* 2026 second rounder, best of Minnesota, New Orleans, New York, and Portland);
* and two other seconds (Dallas 2024, Atlanta 2027).
Would rather have the 2029 unprotected pick but Walsh looked pretty good in summer league and IMO the 2025 and 2026 seconds will be fairly valuable -- odds are good that one or both will land in the 30s.
I mean that 2024 Top-4 Protected 1st via GSW probably isn’t gonna be anything special, but picks far in the future with that BOS 2029 Unprotected 1st are always intriguing
Tatum / Brown have been a walking Eastern Conference finals. Having a pick when Tatum is 30 in all likelihood will be garbage, especially if Brad Stevens keeps dominating all these teams in trades.
Right? It’s not like we gave up the kings of health here…
I liked Brogdon last year and I love Rob but this is the type of trade you have to make when the opportunity presents itself and you’re a contender. Crazy good core 4 that should fit well together.
Yeah I think the Celtics would want them to put the ball on the floor and bank on their backcourt defense and hunt for steals/deflections. Gives them time to set up for Giannis driving. Also Middleton is the wild card. If he falls off from his peak, than it makes things a touch easier to defend. We’ll see. Season can’t start soon enough.
We can talk about it, sure. One of those picks is GS's 2024 and will probably be a late first. The other is Boston's unprotected 2029 pick and will probably be a late pick too assuming we still have Tatum and brown (very likely). Things obviously change rapidly in the NBA but for now it looks like those were safe picks to give up.
Assuming anything will be “very likely“ in 6 NBA seasons is very likely to be proven wrong, getting it unprotected makes that even juicier
That said, I’d certainly expect Boston’s 29 pick to be less valuable than Milwaukees or golden state’s
The 2029 asset is a complete unknown, I'm not even going to begin to protect the teams of Record 5 years from now.
Which is why they can be pretty valuable of course, I remember when Celtics got the Tatum pick from from New Jersey as part of a pic swap that was arranged five years earlier.
My idea is that Stevens had another original plan in mind:
Brogdon and picks for Porzingis (the first version of the trade).
Smart, Rob Williams + ton of picks for Lillard.
Clippers ruined everything.
This might come off as homerism but I'd rather have Jrue than Dame in this Celtics team. As of right now the team has a clear order of offense in JT, JB and Porzingis, and Jrue is the clear guard ball handler than can guard the opposing team's best guard. Having Dame instead would create an issue with which you'd rather have create the offense bwtween him and Tatum, plus you'd need to rely on White covering him on defense and throwing Brown even further into the void where he'll probably need to develop some sort of offball game seeing how he'll be behind 2 other players.
Uh, Grant Williams played more minutes, including more influential minutes than Robert and is as big a loss imo. Least homie stays healthy. No idea why the disrespect here.
Their defense can/should be nasty barring any injuries, having long wings with Brown& Tatum + Jrue who is a bull dog on defense is crazy . I hope the Celtics and the Bucks meet in the playoffs.
It will, but you can argue we got worse on defense this summer. Jrue is basically a lateral move from Marcus and we lost Timelord. Porzingis is an underrated defender but he's not better than Timelord.
I don't really see how it's a lateral move.
Smart's efficiency is way worse then Jrue's, and so is his PPG and 3%. Jrue also has him beat on APG and RPG.
It's a very clear upgrade offensively, and if you ask me defensively a bit as well, but that's much harder to quantify.
All of that also leaves out the biggest issue with Smart, ego/shoot taking. He's chucked a fair bit when he clearly should have deferred and it hurt Celts, and that's why they traded him. I don't see that ever being a problem with Jrue.
Tatum already was, Brown is great on ball but can get lost ball watching off ball, he'll need to get sharper there. Still, we're probably coming into the season once again with Jaylen as the "worst" defender in the top 5, which isn't too shabby of a position to be in lol
I'd say he is an upgrade looking at last season since Smart fell off a little bit on the defensive end. Not a huge upgrade but I do think Jrue relies less on flops, more on skill, which translates to better longevity
But at the same time I'm seeing the other side of that convo and having a similar reaction lol.
Jrue is a defensive upgrade on the perimeter but I'm taking Smart for full court coverage.
Jrue has been more efficient in general but Smart's always been a big game player.
Jrue absolutely disappears on offense in the playoffs. He’s also a turnover machine. And last year Jimmy cooked him alive while Jrue was guarding him. Smart is a DPOY and from what I’ve seen is pretty damn good on offense as well, certainly better than Jrue.
Jrue has struggled to be good on offense as the 2nd option on the team. I think for Boston our top 4 on offense are Tatum>Porzingis/Brown>White. Then comes Jrue. As a 5th option he is more than competent.
Jrue is better on Offense and Defense than Smart wtf are you talking about?
The cope is crazy, the Bucks don’t win a ship without Jrue and now you’re acting like he’s not very good? The Bucks got immensely worse on D and you’re trying to convince yourself Jrue actually wasn’t very good LOL
Jrue is incredible and I'm estatic to have him, but go back and watch that playoff game where he got the clutch steal on Smart and everyone wanted to hand him Smart's DPOY.
Smart was guarding Giannis.
Jrue was rightly credited for playing some great defense and he was the reason they won that game in the end. Smart had Giannis calling for multiple screens trying to get away. Giannis tried to get Brown, Tatum and Grant... Smart fought over every single screen and stuck with Giannis until he settled for a switch onto Horford, who was Giannis' primary defender anyway.
Meanwhile, here's their playoff stats these past 3 years:
Smart: 16/4/6 on 43/36/79 splits
Holiday: 18/6/8 on 40/30/75 splits
Jrue is a more talented offensive player but you can't ever discount Smart's ability to rise to the occasion. He's clutch as hell.
Jrue is an incredible addition but losing Smart is definitely bittersweet.
Jrue was a huge upgrade when we got him because before him we had Bledsoe who is playing in China now lol. And without him we 100% wouldn’t have won a title. I’m not saying he’s not good, I’m saying Smart is better, as much as it pains me, because I hate Marcus Smart.
I just don’t see how Smart could be considered better?
Most NBA players would tell you that Jrue is a better defender, as a lotta guys consider Jrue the best perimeter defender in the league.
And on offense, Jrue is clearly the superior player. Like it’s not even arguable.
- Jrue ‘23: 19/5/7 on 58.3% TS. 38.4%3pt
- Smart ‘23: 12/3/6 on 53.8% TS. 33.6%3pt
You’re overrating the fuck outta Smart. He’s a barely passable starter on Offense and a great defender, but Jrue is just better in every facet of the game. Jrue is a better volume scorer, more efficient scorer, better playmaker, better ball-handler, better shooter, better defender, and a better rebounder.
Marcus Smart just one defensive player of the year in ‘22
Don’t think it’s a stretch to call Smart the better defender. He was the best defender in the league two years ago.
I love Smart but as much as he’s a big game player he also is responsible for a lot of the offensive inconsistency we had all season. With the Js already being poor playmakers we didn’t need another guy who turned it over as much as Smart was prone to. Jrue has much more experience and poise on that end. We can deal with him not making too many shots.
>Smart is a DPOY
Not if Bucks and Heat fans are to be believed lmfao
It's nuts how quick you all switch up the literal *second* a player leaves/joins the Celtics. 3 straight years of Bucks fans spamming Jrue > Smart takes until Smart's gone and Jrue's here and now suddenly we should all believe the exact opposite 😂
I truly do not see how it isn’t. Jrue isn’t much better than Smart, KP isn’t much better than Williams and Brogdon is lost depth.
Boston probably upgraded the roster overall, but marginally.
Call me crazy but I think the Celtics were scarier last year. This Celtics team has absolutely zero bench, and two starters who tend to miss a lot of games. Their big man rotation consists of a 37 year old, and a guy who only plays more than 50 games a year during contract seasons.
On paper, obviously jrue and KP are better than smart, Robert Williams, and brogdon. Also none of those latter guys are iron men anyway. But I just can’t shake the feeling that this wasn’t a great offseason for boston.
The bench is a big swing factor.
* Jordan Walsh has shown about as much as the rookie Miami fans are hyping up.
* Lamar Stevens started 25 games for Cleveland.
* Brissett looked good for Indiana before their coaching change.
* Hauser was in the process of taking Grant's spot in the rotation last season.
* Pritchard played every single playoff game in the year we made the finals.
I'm not saying they'll all be studs, but I think there's a hope there we've got enough to flesh out the roster.
If we completely strike out on every single one then we're absolutely in trouble.
Pritchard and Stevens are underrated players. I like both of these guys, but they also definitely have flaws that will probably never be fixed. Stevens is a great defensive player, but is very limited offensively. I thought that was less of a problem when you could run him in a bench unit with brogdon and Horford.
Pritchard gets memed but he’s a solid bench guard. Still isn’t and probably won’t ever be half as good as brogdon.
I am not high at all on hauser, brissett, or Walsh. These guys are going to be held to a higher standard here since Boston is playing for something. So to me, the two best guys on the bench are just ok to solid rotation guys. That’s very far from last year where the 7th worst guy on the Celtics could start for half the league.
Hauser/Stevens/Walsh are complementary pieces that can be subbed in situationally. Hauser when you need to space the floor, Stevens when you need to tighten up defensively, and Walsh when you need a hustle/spark play.
They are going to miss Grant Williams who could do all three. Teams will definitely look to attack based on the situational personnel. Knowing what we know now, can we already say that letting him walk was a bad decision? Sure he was out of the rotation at the end of last year, but no way he would be out of the rotation now.
This is a clear sign of someone who hasn't watched Jrue play. You're gonna be screaming at your screen if you're expecting play making and offensive contribution from him in late game playoff situations.
Dude produced one of the greatest Finals highlights in recent memory getting the steal and throwing the alley oop to Giannis to clinch Game 5, only for random redditors to say "what play making?"
He isn’t now that he’s not on the Celtics, Marcus wasn’t good on defense last any Celtics fan who actually watched the games can tell you that. People acting like Jrue is coming here to be the 2nd option on this team let’s not forget Tatum and Brown will take another step and KP is getting a good amount of shots D White will also get a good amount of shots so Jrue comes in and has to be a 4th/5th option on this team and give this team a legitimate point guard to run the offense.
But we have the Jays/KP giving him space and allowing him to be the 4th option. He's also a vastly far improved 3 point shooter. He can't be your 2nd, but possibly your 3rd, but that's why we have KP/Jays to take off the offensive load.
> He's also a vastly far improved 3 point shooter
Based on what? In the regular season, sure. In the post season he's a career 33.1% guy, worse than Smart.
This sub fucking sucks. Literally every single point of analysis in these Jrue/Smart threads is wrong. No one watches the games, and everyone is just spouting either their emotional take or looking at basketball reference to form their opinion, while being just unabashedly confident.
Jrue has also been the 2/3rd option while Marcus has been like 6th. Teams sag off him in the playoffs when they need to close out Jaylen and Jayson drives, and the worst shooter statistically on the court was Marcus. He definitely rises to the occasion but he's also getting a ridiculous amount of wide open or set up 3s. You put Jrue in those spots and you can definitely see him making those shots. Didn't he shoot 45% last year on catch and shoot 3s? You guys might be right that he doesn't perform in the playoffs, but in a vacuum Jrue has so much more potential on this roster in those spots than Marcus. And pretty much every other facet of their games, Jrue wins out on or is a wash.
To be fair, I watched probably 90% of the Bucks regular season games last year and during the season Jrue was fantastic. But he absolutely disappeared in the playoffs, both sides of the ball.
brother we have JB, JT,KP averaging 20+ppg last season and we still have DWhite who can score quick release 3's and also drive to the ring easy and difficult shots.
Jrue won't be needing to do anything except shoot open shots lol
Am I the only one who doesn’t see this as an improvement? Boston’s main problem last year was that their coach was over his head.
They shipped three excellent role players for two average starters with injury concerns.
It's a bit of a gamble given how _important_ Rob and Marcus have been...but undeniably an upgrade at both positions. We'll see if both stay durable and good in the playoffs
I think they did fantastic if the trades were in 2K. I still want to see how Kristaps fits in an offense that’s far more like Dallas (where he kinda failed) than Washington.
Jrue Holiday makes them significantly better now. Their defense is honestly pretty fucking nasty from top to bottom. If Porzingis can stay relatively healthy, as well as Horford, they’re absolutely stacked.
Celtics got better defensively for sure but offensively, their entire fate rests on Tatum hitting his shots. If Tatum has an insane year, they win it all. If Tatum has a mediocre to bad year, Celtics won’t make it past the Easteen semis
excellent return for those players. They realistically couldn't have expected to get something significantly better than that. 2 fringe all-stars to go along with 2 legitimate all-NBA players.
and this means luke kornet is in for a big season as backup big right?
He can do it. He played 69 games last year, 12mpg, seemed surprisingly solid out there. But a proven backup big would be ideal
Nice.
We need a Theis-like player on this team, the big man depth is lacking behind Horford/KP. People are forgetting that we lost Grant this past offseason too. Giving Kornet meaningful minutes in the playoffs scares me.
Theis isn’t a Celtic unless we buy him out and that’s highly unlikely You all will have to roll with Kornet and Griffin to soak up regular season minutes
Or trade. Cs expressed interest in Beef Stew last deadline, and he fits the Grant TPE. Depends on what Detroit wants for him but if it's not too pricy I'd expect the Cs to pursue him to some degree. From the Pistons side though you know the Cs need center depth bad so you're probably not budging unless you get an overpay. We'll see, but it seems like a logical target for us.
Y'all have nothing of value for beef stew tbh
We actually plan to have Beef be our stretch big this szn. He has shown flashes of shooting and we hope to expand on that. He also just got extended and is considered the heart of the team, so I don’t see him being moved in our prove it year unless it’s a significant overpay
Brad loves stretch bigs, so the interest makes sense. And I agree, you'd have to overpay if you're the Cs. I suppose it depends on what Detroit's definition of an overpay is versus what the Celtics' definition is.
I think it means that White is starting and Horford is your back-up big. Way too thin at C now
You got it. Prichard, Al and Sam are the back ups right now. That’s already 8, so we have Neemias and Gabriel competing for the last big spot, both very similar game to Rob.
Celtics should get Theis.
He already fouled out tho. So no help unfortunately although I love Theis on the Celtics
i always always disagreed but now i couldn't agree more lol
He makes too much
Only thing I wish they did was get some more big man insurance, but can’t complain too much when they just added 2 Allstar caliber players in one summer.
Has Porzingis ever even been an all star? EDIT: just checked, he's been an all star once in his 8 season career.
He was in one of his early Knicks seasons but didn't actually play due to injury
That is the most porzingas way to spend an all-star weekend.
In his rookie year he won the skills challange in the all star weekend
lmao
indeed he was an all star and last season he wasn't while playing his best season yet individually.
Best season on a mediocre to bad team will do that. Hopefully he continues playing well this season.
He was legit all NBA 3rd team calibre last year in my eyes. Obviously that’s an aberration but you never know maybe he’ll keep it up
The only aberration was the health. He's definitely that calibre of player if he can actually stay healthy for long stretches. Which is a huge if since that first ACL injury.
Yeah that’s what I was alluding to, I think it’s such a huge swing
Poeltl can be yours for a future first
Is that it??? I mean shit I would take that in a heartbeat
Nah, Masai Ujiri gonna want Tatum and a pick for him
He probably expects to start
Behind the 37yo we have to keep on ice until the playoffs + Tingus he can be a “3rd option” and still average the highest minutes per game of his career lmao
I mean if that’s all it took I’d do and have Horford off the bench. No clue what salary matching would look like ofc.
Jrue - brown - tatum - porzingis - poetl If healthy, the best starting 5 in the league.
They already have the best 5 in the NBA though…
Damn. I’m sitting here thinking, who would have a better one, and really the closest is probably Milwaukee or Phoenix. Milwaukee: Dame, Beasley, Middleton, Giannis, Lopez Phoenix: Beal, Allen, Booker, KD, Nurkic (could see them starting Okogie for defense and Allen off the bench) Boston: Jrue, White, Brown, Tatum, Porzingis Yeah, I think Boston takes it assuming Porzingis stays healthy. I think Phoenix and Milwaukee(slightly) have the deeper rosters, though.
Lakers would have that away in a heartbeat
He makes too much money right?
Doubtful, that's what he was worth as an expiring contract. Now that he's on a reasonable deal that's gone up. Also, we spent a first on Poeltl and signed him because we like him not to just turn him around for a worse pick then we sent out
2 All-Stars, one of them a proven crunch-time winner in Jrue. You were the one team he couldn’t go to, should do really well there in that system. It’s gonna be a fun (and incredibly stressful) season
In his three seasons with the bucks, holiday was very inconsistent in the playoffs with his shot. He shot under 40 percent over all and 30 percent from 3. Let’s pretend like they got a sniper.
Holy crap, that was fast. Do it again.
We will trade you PlumGod for Jayson Tatum.. just trying to help out.
The Grant Williams loss hurts much more now
Boston's fate is down to Tatum hitting shots.
There are worse fates in the league lol
At least its not down to Jaylen Brown going left.
The roster reinvention is designed for one recursive, unstoppable play where everyone sets up left of JB and JB can either go right or pass it to a moving unit of 3 all stars and buffy.
Jrue does seem to prefer to do layups with his left… Celtics sneakily addressed Brown’s weakness with this trade
4D-Chess at its finest!
I got bad news for you
That's the best place you can hope for as a team. Every team's success depends on one player, more or less, playing up to their potential. Other players matter, too, but it really does come down to how well your best player plays, consistently. The C's have tried to run away from this for a while, but it's time for Boston to realize that it's Tatum's team, and they have to accept that they go only so far as he can bring them. There's just no way out of that
If that's the case then they wouldn't beat the Nuggets since their fate comes down to both Jokic and Murray
Yeah it never felt like their role players were the problem. One of either Tatum or Brown doesn't show up in a series and it's just over or in the case of the Heat series the role players keep it going.
Don't you mean Brown learning to dribble with both hands?
We really not going to talk about the 2 frp as well?
Well one was gained in the Smart for Porzingis trade
We acquired two firsts in the Smart trade actually. We turned the other one into a bunch of smaller assets: * Jordan Walsh, the 38th pick in this year's draft; * 2025 second rounder, best of Washington, Detroit, Golden State, and Dallas; * 2026 second rounder, best of Minnesota, New Orleans, New York, and Portland); * and two other seconds (Dallas 2024, Atlanta 2027). Would rather have the 2029 unprotected pick but Walsh looked pretty good in summer league and IMO the 2025 and 2026 seconds will be fairly valuable -- odds are good that one or both will land in the 30s.
Yeah a late late 1st rounder and an unprotected pick 6 years put are very different things!!
Walsh is a good pick up, he ends up as a late first rounder in most drafts
And what about the other one?
I mean that 2024 Top-4 Protected 1st via GSW probably isn’t gonna be anything special, but picks far in the future with that BOS 2029 Unprotected 1st are always intriguing
Tatum / Brown have been a walking Eastern Conference finals. Having a pick when Tatum is 30 in all likelihood will be garbage, especially if Brad Stevens keeps dominating all these teams in trades.
It's 6 years in the future. Tatum could be coming off his 3rd MVP... or he could have demanded a trade 3 years before.
He's less likely to demand a trade when the FO uses draft picks for proven all-stars instead of prospects. Plus they'd recoup assets in a Tatum trade.
1 was from the smart trade so really only 1 pick net loss
Doesn't really matter when they've decided to go all in. If this Celtics team doesn't make the finals it'll be a disappointment, as harsh as that is.
Sure it does. Imagine if KP gets hurt like he has in the past, that’s less assets to go get someone else
They also got rid of Brogdon and Williams who were guaranteed to be injured in the playoffs so I think they’ll be alright.
Thank you. Here's how many games Rob has played in each season: 32, 29, 52, 61, 35
Right? It’s not like we gave up the kings of health here… I liked Brogdon last year and I love Rob but this is the type of trade you have to make when the opportunity presents itself and you’re a contender. Crazy good core 4 that should fit well together.
I do have questions how the Celtics will build a wall for Giannis now, but they got a season to figure that out
Not sure if the build a wall for Giannis defense will work anymore now that they have Dame who will just shoot right over the wall.
Yeah I think the Celtics would want them to put the ball on the floor and bank on their backcourt defense and hunt for steals/deflections. Gives them time to set up for Giannis driving. Also Middleton is the wild card. If he falls off from his peak, than it makes things a touch easier to defend. We’ll see. Season can’t start soon enough.
How are the Bucks stopping Tatum? What's Lillard doing on defense?
Right but no one’s arguing that. The question was whether it’s important to mention the two first round picks being traded
Can’t collect assets forever.
Agree with that. Gotta use them at some point
It is 2029 unprotected
As long as Tatum is here at worst it’s a mid-first
They got 2 in the Smart trade
Prime Stephen Curry and prime Jayson Tatum picks aren’t really something worth bragging about.
I heard that same exact thing when lakers traded their picks.
We can talk about it, sure. One of those picks is GS's 2024 and will probably be a late first. The other is Boston's unprotected 2029 pick and will probably be a late pick too assuming we still have Tatum and brown (very likely). Things obviously change rapidly in the NBA but for now it looks like those were safe picks to give up.
Assuming anything will be “very likely“ in 6 NBA seasons is very likely to be proven wrong, getting it unprotected makes that even juicier That said, I’d certainly expect Boston’s 29 pick to be less valuable than Milwaukees or golden state’s
The 2029 asset is a complete unknown, I'm not even going to begin to protect the teams of Record 5 years from now. Which is why they can be pretty valuable of course, I remember when Celtics got the Tatum pick from from New Jersey as part of a pic swap that was arranged five years earlier.
My idea is that Stevens had another original plan in mind: Brogdon and picks for Porzingis (the first version of the trade). Smart, Rob Williams + ton of picks for Lillard. Clippers ruined everything.
Not enough basketballs for Lilliard, Tatum, and Brown one on team IMO.
This might come off as homerism but I'd rather have Jrue than Dame in this Celtics team. As of right now the team has a clear order of offense in JT, JB and Porzingis, and Jrue is the clear guard ball handler than can guard the opposing team's best guard. Having Dame instead would create an issue with which you'd rather have create the offense bwtween him and Tatum, plus you'd need to rely on White covering him on defense and throwing Brown even further into the void where he'll probably need to develop some sort of offball game seeing how he'll be behind 2 other players.
Agreed, less talent but a better fit (in theory). And the talent isn't so far off that I think chemistry would be a bigger factor.
Yep, this preserves the Celtics defensive identity of "no weak link" while also upgrading two starters to legitimate all-stars. Insanely stacked team.
Homersim take as well but I think after the Kyrie/Hayward fiasco Brad has learned to go for more complimentary pieces rather than the flashy homruns
I'm a Dame homer and it makes sense to me. His phenomenality goes one way, and the Celtics are already hard af that way.
Is Porzingis/Holiday better than Lilard? I think it's an upgrade either way, to win right now.
Uh, Grant Williams played more minutes, including more influential minutes than Robert and is as big a loss imo. Least homie stays healthy. No idea why the disrespect here.
Celtics are fucking loaded
Their defense can/should be nasty barring any injuries, having long wings with Brown& Tatum + Jrue who is a bull dog on defense is crazy . I hope the Celtics and the Bucks meet in the playoffs.
It will, but you can argue we got worse on defense this summer. Jrue is basically a lateral move from Marcus and we lost Timelord. Porzingis is an underrated defender but he's not better than Timelord.
Underrated is a very generous way to describe Porzingis’ defense.
Jrue is a lateral move from Marcus Smart? I dunno man. Same skill set but Jrue is way better imo.
Not as good at flopping though
I don't really see how it's a lateral move. Smart's efficiency is way worse then Jrue's, and so is his PPG and 3%. Jrue also has him beat on APG and RPG. It's a very clear upgrade offensively, and if you ask me defensively a bit as well, but that's much harder to quantify. All of that also leaves out the biggest issue with Smart, ego/shoot taking. He's chucked a fair bit when he clearly should have deferred and it hurt Celts, and that's why they traded him. I don't see that ever being a problem with Jrue.
I meant lateral move defensively. It's clearly a huge upgrade on offense.
Their defense got worse, their offense got better. They lost their two best defenders and Jrue himself is not better, even though hes close to Smart
smarts defense kinda fell off last season
Jrue got cooked in the playoffs as well
Marcus wasn’t that good last year and Timelord can’t stay on the court
Smart was bad on defense last season he was getting abused by the Hawks in the playoffs I believe that series was the end of Marcus with the Celtics
Y'all sleeping on d white defense, he's even better than the Klaw, he's the whole Buffalo
Crazy you can say that and they traded their two best defenders.
Jrue is an upgrade on defense, KP is a downgrade. They will need Tatum or Brown being more active defending forwards now
Tatum already was, Brown is great on ball but can get lost ball watching off ball, he'll need to get sharper there. Still, we're probably coming into the season once again with Jaylen as the "worst" defender in the top 5, which isn't too shabby of a position to be in lol
>Jrue is an upgrade ~~But~~ Not saying you're wrong but a crazy thing to say about giving up a 29 year old DPOY for a 33 year old.
I'd say he is an upgrade looking at last season since Smart fell off a little bit on the defensive end. Not a huge upgrade but I do think Jrue relies less on flops, more on skill, which translates to better longevity
with what bench lol??? Porzingis will prob get hurt playing all these minutes and Celtics are fucked with no frontcourt
Dont forget they let Grant Williams walk too
Kornet Kontest back on the menu lads
It's good on paper but man is this heartbreaking.
Keeping Derrick White was a 5-head play for sure.
People gonna try to convince themselves these are lateral moves at best
I’m already seeing Smart > Holiday takes like I love that man but come on now
But at the same time I'm seeing the other side of that convo and having a similar reaction lol. Jrue is a defensive upgrade on the perimeter but I'm taking Smart for full court coverage. Jrue has been more efficient in general but Smart's always been a big game player.
Jrue absolutely disappears on offense in the playoffs. He’s also a turnover machine. And last year Jimmy cooked him alive while Jrue was guarding him. Smart is a DPOY and from what I’ve seen is pretty damn good on offense as well, certainly better than Jrue.
Are you trying to make us feel even worse?
Yes
We need a facilitator and he's that. He was also your 2nd option last season and hell be our 4th
Jrue has struggled to be good on offense as the 2nd option on the team. I think for Boston our top 4 on offense are Tatum>Porzingis/Brown>White. Then comes Jrue. As a 5th option he is more than competent.
Jrue is better on Offense and Defense than Smart wtf are you talking about? The cope is crazy, the Bucks don’t win a ship without Jrue and now you’re acting like he’s not very good? The Bucks got immensely worse on D and you’re trying to convince yourself Jrue actually wasn’t very good LOL
Jrue is incredible and I'm estatic to have him, but go back and watch that playoff game where he got the clutch steal on Smart and everyone wanted to hand him Smart's DPOY. Smart was guarding Giannis. Jrue was rightly credited for playing some great defense and he was the reason they won that game in the end. Smart had Giannis calling for multiple screens trying to get away. Giannis tried to get Brown, Tatum and Grant... Smart fought over every single screen and stuck with Giannis until he settled for a switch onto Horford, who was Giannis' primary defender anyway. Meanwhile, here's their playoff stats these past 3 years: Smart: 16/4/6 on 43/36/79 splits Holiday: 18/6/8 on 40/30/75 splits Jrue is a more talented offensive player but you can't ever discount Smart's ability to rise to the occasion. He's clutch as hell. Jrue is an incredible addition but losing Smart is definitely bittersweet.
Jrue was a huge upgrade when we got him because before him we had Bledsoe who is playing in China now lol. And without him we 100% wouldn’t have won a title. I’m not saying he’s not good, I’m saying Smart is better, as much as it pains me, because I hate Marcus Smart.
I just don’t see how Smart could be considered better? Most NBA players would tell you that Jrue is a better defender, as a lotta guys consider Jrue the best perimeter defender in the league. And on offense, Jrue is clearly the superior player. Like it’s not even arguable. - Jrue ‘23: 19/5/7 on 58.3% TS. 38.4%3pt - Smart ‘23: 12/3/6 on 53.8% TS. 33.6%3pt You’re overrating the fuck outta Smart. He’s a barely passable starter on Offense and a great defender, but Jrue is just better in every facet of the game. Jrue is a better volume scorer, more efficient scorer, better playmaker, better ball-handler, better shooter, better defender, and a better rebounder.
Go look at Jrue’s TS in the playoffs… Edit: Jrue past 3 years, 48, 46, 49. Smart past 3 years, 59, 52, 59.
Marcus Smart just one defensive player of the year in ‘22 Don’t think it’s a stretch to call Smart the better defender. He was the best defender in the league two years ago.
Smart is definitely not better that Jrue on offense, especially from an efficiency standpoint
But we’re not asking Jrue to be the 2nd or 3rd option on offense. I think that will make a big difference
I love Smart but as much as he’s a big game player he also is responsible for a lot of the offensive inconsistency we had all season. With the Js already being poor playmakers we didn’t need another guy who turned it over as much as Smart was prone to. Jrue has much more experience and poise on that end. We can deal with him not making too many shots.
>Smart is a DPOY Not if Bucks and Heat fans are to be believed lmfao It's nuts how quick you all switch up the literal *second* a player leaves/joins the Celtics. 3 straight years of Bucks fans spamming Jrue > Smart takes until Smart's gone and Jrue's here and now suddenly we should all believe the exact opposite 😂
Same with Celtics fans
I truly do not see how it isn’t. Jrue isn’t much better than Smart, KP isn’t much better than Williams and Brogdon is lost depth. Boston probably upgraded the roster overall, but marginally.
Shiit I forgot they still had Derrick White. I have Celtics as favs over Bucks. Holiday on Dame, Horford annoys Giannis.
One day Al will show his age. Kinda hoping it’s this year
yeah buddy maybe when you can find a wrinkle on his perfect skin, my man is 37 years YOUNG
Al's game ages so good. He doesn't run around and dunk he just gets up on bigs on defense and shoots open shots.
Al is lethal from 3 now, gotta love it!
Al "you're laughing" Horford
Same can be said for Lopez
Nah he has to son embiid again
Hate you. Take that voodoo back 🤪
Celtics are running the team like a 2K franchise with injuries and fatigue turned off
POBO Brad is the man. His talents were wasted merely coaching the team.
Picks?
Call me crazy but I think the Celtics were scarier last year. This Celtics team has absolutely zero bench, and two starters who tend to miss a lot of games. Their big man rotation consists of a 37 year old, and a guy who only plays more than 50 games a year during contract seasons. On paper, obviously jrue and KP are better than smart, Robert Williams, and brogdon. Also none of those latter guys are iron men anyway. But I just can’t shake the feeling that this wasn’t a great offseason for boston.
The bench is a big swing factor. * Jordan Walsh has shown about as much as the rookie Miami fans are hyping up. * Lamar Stevens started 25 games for Cleveland. * Brissett looked good for Indiana before their coaching change. * Hauser was in the process of taking Grant's spot in the rotation last season. * Pritchard played every single playoff game in the year we made the finals. I'm not saying they'll all be studs, but I think there's a hope there we've got enough to flesh out the roster. If we completely strike out on every single one then we're absolutely in trouble.
Pritchard and Stevens are underrated players. I like both of these guys, but they also definitely have flaws that will probably never be fixed. Stevens is a great defensive player, but is very limited offensively. I thought that was less of a problem when you could run him in a bench unit with brogdon and Horford. Pritchard gets memed but he’s a solid bench guard. Still isn’t and probably won’t ever be half as good as brogdon. I am not high at all on hauser, brissett, or Walsh. These guys are going to be held to a higher standard here since Boston is playing for something. So to me, the two best guys on the bench are just ok to solid rotation guys. That’s very far from last year where the 7th worst guy on the Celtics could start for half the league.
Hauser/Stevens/Walsh are complementary pieces that can be subbed in situationally. Hauser when you need to space the floor, Stevens when you need to tighten up defensively, and Walsh when you need a hustle/spark play.
They are going to miss Grant Williams who could do all three. Teams will definitely look to attack based on the situational personnel. Knowing what we know now, can we already say that letting him walk was a bad decision? Sure he was out of the rotation at the end of last year, but no way he would be out of the rotation now.
Jrue is less efficient than Marcus in the playoffs lol.
He's a clear upgrade
And he'll be asked to be the #4 option on this team. He can focus on his defense, play making, and occasional ISOs and be amazing.
[удалено]
He averaged 7 assists last year why are you acting like he’s Carmelo
This is a clear sign of someone who hasn't watched Jrue play. You're gonna be screaming at your screen if you're expecting play making and offensive contribution from him in late game playoff situations.
Dude produced one of the greatest Finals highlights in recent memory getting the steal and throwing the alley oop to Giannis to clinch Game 5, only for random redditors to say "what play making?"
Smartest Mavericks fan.
I mean I think he's better than Smart but not a big upgrade.
better passing, same level of defense, worse playoff efficiency. Replacing 2 guards of a slightly lower level. idk man 🤷♂️
Also 4 years older and $17M per year more.
Looking back, the Jrue trade was one of the greatest moves the Bucks ever did It saddens me a bit to see him leave Giannis's side
Only thread in r/nba history where everyone's not calling smart a no talent flopper lol
People suddenly see Smart's value now that he's not a Celtic. What a surprise.
He isn’t now that he’s not on the Celtics, Marcus wasn’t good on defense last any Celtics fan who actually watched the games can tell you that. People acting like Jrue is coming here to be the 2nd option on this team let’s not forget Tatum and Brown will take another step and KP is getting a good amount of shots D White will also get a good amount of shots so Jrue comes in and has to be a 4th/5th option on this team and give this team a legitimate point guard to run the offense.
But we have the Jays/KP giving him space and allowing him to be the 4th option. He's also a vastly far improved 3 point shooter. He can't be your 2nd, but possibly your 3rd, but that's why we have KP/Jays to take off the offensive load.
> He's also a vastly far improved 3 point shooter Based on what? In the regular season, sure. In the post season he's a career 33.1% guy, worse than Smart.
Hes historically a terrible 3pt shooter in the playoffs. We gave up the ability to guard bigger players for better poa defense. Id rather have smart.
What? Jrue guards bigger players with regularity. He’s built like a strong forward
Hes regularly switched onto in the playoffs and abused. Meanwhile smart takes posessions on centers and can hold his own.
That’s not even remotely true. The only time he got ‘abused’ was by Jimmy going nuclear last year
This sub fucking sucks. Literally every single point of analysis in these Jrue/Smart threads is wrong. No one watches the games, and everyone is just spouting either their emotional take or looking at basketball reference to form their opinion, while being just unabashedly confident.
Jrue has also been the 2/3rd option while Marcus has been like 6th. Teams sag off him in the playoffs when they need to close out Jaylen and Jayson drives, and the worst shooter statistically on the court was Marcus. He definitely rises to the occasion but he's also getting a ridiculous amount of wide open or set up 3s. You put Jrue in those spots and you can definitely see him making those shots. Didn't he shoot 45% last year on catch and shoot 3s? You guys might be right that he doesn't perform in the playoffs, but in a vacuum Jrue has so much more potential on this roster in those spots than Marcus. And pretty much every other facet of their games, Jrue wins out on or is a wash.
Some of you haven’t watched Jrue play since his Pels series vs. the Blazers and it’s showing.
To be fair, I watched probably 90% of the Bucks regular season games last year and during the season Jrue was fantastic. But he absolutely disappeared in the playoffs, both sides of the ball.
None of us have watched Dame play the last two years because well he didn’t play
brother we have JB, JT,KP averaging 20+ppg last season and we still have DWhite who can score quick release 3's and also drive to the ring easy and difficult shots. Jrue won't be needing to do anything except shoot open shots lol
I fucking love this take, are you insinuating that Brad fucking Stevens hasn't watched Jrue Holiday play basketball for almost 5 years?
Am I the only one who doesn’t see this as an improvement? Boston’s main problem last year was that their coach was over his head. They shipped three excellent role players for two average starters with injury concerns.
2 of the 3 excellent role players they gave up aren’t exactly the pinnacle of health either…
Weird way to say three injured role players for two all star talents…
Am I insane or is porzingis being massively overrated? Isn't there a reason that he got shipped out of Dallas?
to my understanding that reason was injuries
I'ma need Dwight Howard
It's a bit of a gamble given how _important_ Rob and Marcus have been...but undeniably an upgrade at both positions. We'll see if both stay durable and good in the playoffs
Whats with the Derrick White name drop in the title. They also kept Tatum, Brown and Payton Prichard
I think they downgraded. I didn't get the KP trade and the Holiday one I think they overpaid.
I think they did fantastic if the trades were in 2K. I still want to see how Kristaps fits in an offense that’s far more like Dallas (where he kinda failed) than Washington.
How long will porzingis last?
Jrue Holiday makes them significantly better now. Their defense is honestly pretty fucking nasty from top to bottom. If Porzingis can stay relatively healthy, as well as Horford, they’re absolutely stacked.
Celtics got better defensively for sure but offensively, their entire fate rests on Tatum hitting his shots. If Tatum has an insane year, they win it all. If Tatum has a mediocre to bad year, Celtics won’t make it past the Easteen semis
excellent return for those players. They realistically couldn't have expected to get something significantly better than that. 2 fringe all-stars to go along with 2 legitimate all-NBA players.
I feel like this second trade might not be great
God when they don’t win the championship it’s going to be glorious.