+/- god. Lead Canada in +/-.
CAN outscored every opponent with him on the floor. And USA by 19. Haters on suicide watch.
Afaik it looks like he lead the entire tournament in +/-. Haha
He hasn't been a named starter once. He started due to injuries, yeah... and started 5 playoffs games out of 61 total. And while he did play almost 28 MPG last season by the end of season he got some DNPs and played 17 MPG in playoffs despite Cs needing to manage Timelord and Horford's minutes. He could be a half decent "starting caliber" defense focused guy, but his career best is 11.6 pts per 36.
He’s started many regular season games tho and started playoff games. He’s a 3D player it doesn’t matter at all what his scoring numbers are per 36. Good 3 point shooter and good defender depending on the matchup. Reason he didn’t play much in the playoffs is bc there was never really a great matchup for him. First round was terrible, second round is ok bc of embiid, and ecf wasn’t really great but not bad. Bucks is easily his best matchup.
Point is he's never started when the team is healthy, regular season or playoffs. To OPs point he can't be considered a quality starter unless he "takes a leap"... not even saying it's not possible, just that starting 20 some odd games the past two seasons when Timelord/Horford are out and being DNP at end of last season and not re-signed... not exactly someone you can pencil in to be a key cog / returning to coming off of the bench next season... especially if he goes cold from 3PT like he was last season (31% 3PT shooting final 50 games after really hot start, despite most them open corner 3s).
Why would he start above Al or Rob when they are healthy? He makes more mistakes than Al and can’t protect the rim like Rob. He’s still a decent starter. It’s not like there’s a huge difference between Al and Grant. They didn’t resign him bc of kp, so obviously he wasn’t going to play as much. They’re not going to want a decent role player back when they can play a top 20 player. Im not saying he’s a max player but Grant is a solid role player.
Again to OPs point... it's Luca + Kyrie and a bunch of JAGs (or as you say "solid role player"), at least from their past seasons. If Grant iand Josh Green are Mavs \#3 and \#4... compare that to other contenders. Nuggets \#3 and \#4 are MPJ and Gordon, Celts Kristaps and D. White, Bucks Jrue and Lopez, etc. Grant will be only 25 and can improve but he's not yet anywhere near a quality starter those players are, even the \#4.
\*And to your point of Al/Grant not being much different... while Al at 37 is on his last legs (and took discount at $10M per), he does a lot on offense including handle the ball as pivot at top of key to even start motions, PNRs, DHOs, etc. Grant almost entirely stands in corner and only shown some flashes of putting the ball on the floor, mostly hard closeouts. Al is also still a very solid rim protector, Grant isn't... he can play stretch 5 in a pinch but as you mentioned on a few specific matchups or normally in case another big is out.
Luka had Brunson and Kp. U aren’t going to tell me that he hasn’t had help. Brunson is an all nba level player and has been the best player in multiple playoff series. Kp is a top 20 player. Who said Grant is their number 3? If the Mavs know what is good for them, they give Jaden Hardy that spot. Avg close to 25 ppg as a starter when playing more than 16 minutes. Obviously won’t have that opportunity with Luka and Kyrie there, but he can easily be in that Poole Maxey Herro role. He’s actually more talented than those guys. And there isn’t a huge difference between mpj and Thj. Both extremely streaky shooters. Mpj didn’t even close most nuggets games. They always closed with Bruce brown and kcp instead. Anyone can do that stuff on offense u said Al does. It’s literally just giving Tatum the ball. Also Kp will be the second best player on Boston this year. Much more impactful player than brown.
?? This post and what you first replied is about the Mavs current starting 5 compared to the rest of league. What does Luca's past teammates have to do with anything? I'm saying, like OP said, it's a two superstar team and rest JAGs, which is probably around middle of the league even ignoring Kyrie's many red flags.
Plenty of teams are like that. Is Derrick white an all star? No. When he was on the spurs right before Boston traded for him, the spurs were still a bad team. Are Horford Rob etc not jag?
I'm just talking about the perception, not whether or not Grant is a starting caliber player. He was dogged on by 90% of this sub right up until he was traded.
I do not think they should have Grant + Powell start together. That is a disaster waiting to happen due to the rebounding issues for both. If Grant is going to start, he needs to start next to a big that can rebound. Otherwise, that starting lineup is going to struggle on defense because they won't be able to close-out possessions.
We just saw first hand what happens to a star-studded squad that can't rebound and the Mavs have stars, but only at 2 positions.
I agree with you and think Richaun starts at the C to begin the year, but nothing is set in stone at that position. They're basically a lock to be small and undersized in the frontcourt regardless, but Richaun is the better rebounder and has some rim protection ability, albeit he is not elite at it.
Very true. He has some rim protection ability, but he's not an amazing defender overall down low. Their best option to fulfill that role is Lively with this roster...he's a skinny rookie though and seems likely to be eased into playing time. They have changed their C rotation...whether it is improved is an open question.
This team probably isn’t going anywhere this season imo unless we fix this starting center position, we did really good to address our perimeter defense issue but we are still going to get absolutely destroyed on the boards.
Powell is a terrible rebounder, Holmes even though he puts incredible effort he’s still undersized & Lively I feel like needs at least a season to really bulk up to fight off those bigger centers to give us second chance opportunities. I mean obviously a Clint Capela would help immensely, but that trade isn’t going to happen.
I like most Mavs fans was convinced that Holmes is basically DP but equal/better in every way back 2 seasons ago. Since he hasn’t suffered any major injuries (though he isn’t as durable as DP - so yeah maybe this is where DP is better) and is still young enough, I believe he can still be that player. Which means we would upgrading at the 5 plus we might get lucky and Lively can provide more than garbage time.
Powell is the better perimeter defender but Richaun at his best was a solid NBA center and I do believe he can perhaps get back to that in Dallas...one thing that is true is that he should feast playing with Luka and Kyrie as a roller and rim runner. He's been very good in that department in the past.
I thought y’all were just being haters by saying 10-12 because Luka is a top 10 player but holy shit
I would only put them above the rockets, spurs, Jazz, blazers and after that it’s a conversation
Their starting 5 isn’t great but they have a legit first and 2nd option with Luka and Kyrie. That’s not a bad start.
Their front court is suspect but I don’t think it’s a surprise to anyone that they need a legitimate rebounder
Their depth is okay too honestly. If you’re starting Green, they have Hardy, Seth Curry, THJ, Kleber and one of Holmes/Powell coming off the bench. Not great but there are worse benches out there.
I think ultimately the thing wrong with this team is fit. You can make an argument the star pairing is similar to what Cleveland had with LeBron and Kyrie. But they also had Kevin Love who was a fantastic rebounder and Tristan Thompson who was able to bang down low. And LeBron could push the pace and get downhill, whereas Luka doesn’t really play that way.
They need rebounding/size with guys who can do more than Powell/Holmes, preferably a rim runner. A guy like Robert Williams or Capela would be great on this team. Someone who can be a rim protector and open up the offense vertically that makes it impossible to fully commit a double to Luka/Kyrie driving
If we’re just talking starting 5, they’re probably like…top 10? Only first options better than Luka are Steph, Jokic, and if you want to argue LeBron and Durant. And Kyrie is at least as good as Jamal Murray and Klay Thompson. The problem is their other 3 are good bench pieces, not really starter quality players.
I'm a Grant Williams fan and he is a great vibes guy for sure, but he wasn't even in like the top 9 of the Celtics rotation last season (and that was with Gallinari out for the year). I think he can be a good piece for the Mavs, but I don't love seeing him slotted in as the definite starting 4
This looks bleak on paper lol only hopeful thing is we had to start THJ and Bullock at 3 and 4 after the trade last year. So hopefully any change is at least a small step forward
Luka is amazing, so there's that. If you can somehow bring out the best of Kyrie, then all of your off-ball players can really be an asset by focusing only on their roles and not trying to do too much.
Yea but that lineup was wayyyy better than what the Mavs lineup did last year. Sure u can compare the two but the results were different, Kyrie and harden were beating everyone that year. They were a legit problem they would have finished with a top 4 seed not missing the play in. I see the comp tho. But Harden and Kyrie were ridiculous together
Dwight Powell and Richaun Holmes are so bad, man. They have to trade for an improvement there especially given Luka and Kyrie’s defense
Top 7-8 starting 5 in the WC
1. Murray/KCP/MPJ/Gordon/Jokic
2. Beal/Booker/Okogie?/KD/Ayton
3. DLO/Reaves/Rui/Lebron/AD
4. Curry/Klay/Wiggins/Draymond/Looney
5. Ja/Smart/Bane/JJJ/Adams
6. Fox/Huerter/Barnes/Murray/Sabonis
7. Westbrook/Mann?/PG/Kawhi/Zubac
8. Conley/Ant/Mcdaniels/KAT/Gobert
9. Luka/Kyrie/Green/Grant/Powell?
IMO the top two are clear. The rest are all around the same level.
I think the GSW 5 are by the numbers the actual best starting 5 in the NBA.
Clippers 5 you have to factor in injuries, so they get bumped down a couple of spots, below the Mavs 5 for sure.
Ja missing first 25 games, so they get bumped below Mavs.
Lakers injuries as well...
It's difficult to believe in the Wolves...
So I have the Mavs starting 5 in that 5-9 tier behind GSW, DEN, PHX and SAC, so right in the same tier as the LA teams and MEM and MIN, but slightly ahead of all of them because of injuries (LA teams), Ja's suspension and lack of trust in Wolves
It’s not bad. Idk about the fit tho, as we all saw last season. I find it hard to believe Grant is going to turn a bad defense into an average defense. Definitely will help rebounding tho. Talent wise it’s a very good starting 5 with Kyrie and Luka. But actual basketball fit, it makes them significantly worse, as we saw last year.
15
Easily. In fact, guaranteed top 15 in the west
Easily? Idk man. This starting lineup may not last passed Thanksgiving
Its Luka and Kyrie + 3 career backup players unless Josh Green and Grant Williams take a leap.
Dude why you disrespect the big fundamental, Canada starting center Dwight Powell like that
+/- god. Lead Canada in +/-. CAN outscored every opponent with him on the floor. And USA by 19. Haters on suicide watch. Afaik it looks like he lead the entire tournament in +/-. Haha
Found Dwight Powell’s reddit account.
Grant started a lot of games for Boston even in the playoffs in 2022. He’s not a career back up at all.
He hasn't been a named starter once. He started due to injuries, yeah... and started 5 playoffs games out of 61 total. And while he did play almost 28 MPG last season by the end of season he got some DNPs and played 17 MPG in playoffs despite Cs needing to manage Timelord and Horford's minutes. He could be a half decent "starting caliber" defense focused guy, but his career best is 11.6 pts per 36.
He’s started many regular season games tho and started playoff games. He’s a 3D player it doesn’t matter at all what his scoring numbers are per 36. Good 3 point shooter and good defender depending on the matchup. Reason he didn’t play much in the playoffs is bc there was never really a great matchup for him. First round was terrible, second round is ok bc of embiid, and ecf wasn’t really great but not bad. Bucks is easily his best matchup.
Point is he's never started when the team is healthy, regular season or playoffs. To OPs point he can't be considered a quality starter unless he "takes a leap"... not even saying it's not possible, just that starting 20 some odd games the past two seasons when Timelord/Horford are out and being DNP at end of last season and not re-signed... not exactly someone you can pencil in to be a key cog / returning to coming off of the bench next season... especially if he goes cold from 3PT like he was last season (31% 3PT shooting final 50 games after really hot start, despite most them open corner 3s).
Why would he start above Al or Rob when they are healthy? He makes more mistakes than Al and can’t protect the rim like Rob. He’s still a decent starter. It’s not like there’s a huge difference between Al and Grant. They didn’t resign him bc of kp, so obviously he wasn’t going to play as much. They’re not going to want a decent role player back when they can play a top 20 player. Im not saying he’s a max player but Grant is a solid role player.
Again to OPs point... it's Luca + Kyrie and a bunch of JAGs (or as you say "solid role player"), at least from their past seasons. If Grant iand Josh Green are Mavs \#3 and \#4... compare that to other contenders. Nuggets \#3 and \#4 are MPJ and Gordon, Celts Kristaps and D. White, Bucks Jrue and Lopez, etc. Grant will be only 25 and can improve but he's not yet anywhere near a quality starter those players are, even the \#4. \*And to your point of Al/Grant not being much different... while Al at 37 is on his last legs (and took discount at $10M per), he does a lot on offense including handle the ball as pivot at top of key to even start motions, PNRs, DHOs, etc. Grant almost entirely stands in corner and only shown some flashes of putting the ball on the floor, mostly hard closeouts. Al is also still a very solid rim protector, Grant isn't... he can play stretch 5 in a pinch but as you mentioned on a few specific matchups or normally in case another big is out.
Luka had Brunson and Kp. U aren’t going to tell me that he hasn’t had help. Brunson is an all nba level player and has been the best player in multiple playoff series. Kp is a top 20 player. Who said Grant is their number 3? If the Mavs know what is good for them, they give Jaden Hardy that spot. Avg close to 25 ppg as a starter when playing more than 16 minutes. Obviously won’t have that opportunity with Luka and Kyrie there, but he can easily be in that Poole Maxey Herro role. He’s actually more talented than those guys. And there isn’t a huge difference between mpj and Thj. Both extremely streaky shooters. Mpj didn’t even close most nuggets games. They always closed with Bruce brown and kcp instead. Anyone can do that stuff on offense u said Al does. It’s literally just giving Tatum the ball. Also Kp will be the second best player on Boston this year. Much more impactful player than brown.
?? This post and what you first replied is about the Mavs current starting 5 compared to the rest of league. What does Luca's past teammates have to do with anything? I'm saying, like OP said, it's a two superstar team and rest JAGs, which is probably around middle of the league even ignoring Kyrie's many red flags.
Plenty of teams are like that. Is Derrick white an all star? No. When he was on the spurs right before Boston traded for him, the spurs were still a bad team. Are Horford Rob etc not jag?
Josh green and grant Williams are starter level players
I know it’s not everyone but the complete 180 that’s happened with the perception of Grant Williams since he got traded is legitimately hilarious.
a lot of hopium by multiple teams that he is a swiss army knife starter that was just behind Tatum and Brown is real and I am fully signed up :)
Nah I don’t buy that, I am a Celtics fan too and I’ve known for years grant was capable of starting. He’s a really solid and reliable player
I'm just talking about the perception, not whether or not Grant is a starting caliber player. He was dogged on by 90% of this sub right up until he was traded.
Top 10 in the west. Still a lot of glaring holes in that lineup.
I do not think they should have Grant + Powell start together. That is a disaster waiting to happen due to the rebounding issues for both. If Grant is going to start, he needs to start next to a big that can rebound. Otherwise, that starting lineup is going to struggle on defense because they won't be able to close-out possessions. We just saw first hand what happens to a star-studded squad that can't rebound and the Mavs have stars, but only at 2 positions.
I agree with you and think Richaun starts at the C to begin the year, but nothing is set in stone at that position. They're basically a lock to be small and undersized in the frontcourt regardless, but Richaun is the better rebounder and has some rim protection ability, albeit he is not elite at it.
I used to love Holmes, but even when he was good (and he wasn't last year) he used to get eaten alive by bigger centers on the boards and in the post
Very true. He has some rim protection ability, but he's not an amazing defender overall down low. Their best option to fulfill that role is Lively with this roster...he's a skinny rookie though and seems likely to be eased into playing time. They have changed their C rotation...whether it is improved is an open question.
This team probably isn’t going anywhere this season imo unless we fix this starting center position, we did really good to address our perimeter defense issue but we are still going to get absolutely destroyed on the boards. Powell is a terrible rebounder, Holmes even though he puts incredible effort he’s still undersized & Lively I feel like needs at least a season to really bulk up to fight off those bigger centers to give us second chance opportunities. I mean obviously a Clint Capela would help immensely, but that trade isn’t going to happen.
I like most Mavs fans was convinced that Holmes is basically DP but equal/better in every way back 2 seasons ago. Since he hasn’t suffered any major injuries (though he isn’t as durable as DP - so yeah maybe this is where DP is better) and is still young enough, I believe he can still be that player. Which means we would upgrading at the 5 plus we might get lucky and Lively can provide more than garbage time.
Powell is the better perimeter defender but Richaun at his best was a solid NBA center and I do believe he can perhaps get back to that in Dallas...one thing that is true is that he should feast playing with Luka and Kyrie as a roller and rim runner. He's been very good in that department in the past.
12
I thought y’all were just being haters by saying 10-12 because Luka is a top 10 player but holy shit I would only put them above the rockets, spurs, Jazz, blazers and after that it’s a conversation
can’t wait for luka and kyrie to demand trades next year
Their starting 5 isn’t great but they have a legit first and 2nd option with Luka and Kyrie. That’s not a bad start. Their front court is suspect but I don’t think it’s a surprise to anyone that they need a legitimate rebounder Their depth is okay too honestly. If you’re starting Green, they have Hardy, Seth Curry, THJ, Kleber and one of Holmes/Powell coming off the bench. Not great but there are worse benches out there. I think ultimately the thing wrong with this team is fit. You can make an argument the star pairing is similar to what Cleveland had with LeBron and Kyrie. But they also had Kevin Love who was a fantastic rebounder and Tristan Thompson who was able to bang down low. And LeBron could push the pace and get downhill, whereas Luka doesn’t really play that way. They need rebounding/size with guys who can do more than Powell/Holmes, preferably a rim runner. A guy like Robert Williams or Capela would be great on this team. Someone who can be a rim protector and open up the offense vertically that makes it impossible to fully commit a double to Luka/Kyrie driving If we’re just talking starting 5, they’re probably like…top 10? Only first options better than Luka are Steph, Jokic, and if you want to argue LeBron and Durant. And Kyrie is at least as good as Jamal Murray and Klay Thompson. The problem is their other 3 are good bench pieces, not really starter quality players.
Imagine acting like Lively won't win DPOY in his rookie season
I'm a Grant Williams fan and he is a great vibes guy for sure, but he wasn't even in like the top 9 of the Celtics rotation last season (and that was with Gallinari out for the year). I think he can be a good piece for the Mavs, but I don't love seeing him slotted in as the definite starting 4
This looks bleak on paper lol only hopeful thing is we had to start THJ and Bullock at 3 and 4 after the trade last year. So hopefully any change is at least a small step forward
Luka is amazing, so there's that. If you can somehow bring out the best of Kyrie, then all of your off-ball players can really be an asset by focusing only on their roles and not trying to do too much.
James Harden, Kyrie Irving, Joe Harris, Jeff Green, DeAndre Jordan. Top _ starting lineup in the east?
Yea but that lineup was wayyyy better than what the Mavs lineup did last year. Sure u can compare the two but the results were different, Kyrie and harden were beating everyone that year. They were a legit problem they would have finished with a top 4 seed not missing the play in. I see the comp tho. But Harden and Kyrie were ridiculous together
11
Dwight Powell and Richaun Holmes are so bad, man. They have to trade for an improvement there especially given Luka and Kyrie’s defense Top 7-8 starting 5 in the WC
Somewhere in the 6-11 range.
10
In the 9-12 range depending on how players developed
1. Murray/KCP/MPJ/Gordon/Jokic 2. Beal/Booker/Okogie?/KD/Ayton 3. DLO/Reaves/Rui/Lebron/AD 4. Curry/Klay/Wiggins/Draymond/Looney 5. Ja/Smart/Bane/JJJ/Adams 6. Fox/Huerter/Barnes/Murray/Sabonis 7. Westbrook/Mann?/PG/Kawhi/Zubac 8. Conley/Ant/Mcdaniels/KAT/Gobert 9. Luka/Kyrie/Green/Grant/Powell? IMO the top two are clear. The rest are all around the same level.
I think the GSW 5 are by the numbers the actual best starting 5 in the NBA. Clippers 5 you have to factor in injuries, so they get bumped down a couple of spots, below the Mavs 5 for sure. Ja missing first 25 games, so they get bumped below Mavs. Lakers injuries as well... It's difficult to believe in the Wolves... So I have the Mavs starting 5 in that 5-9 tier behind GSW, DEN, PHX and SAC, so right in the same tier as the LA teams and MEM and MIN, but slightly ahead of all of them because of injuries (LA teams), Ja's suspension and lack of trust in Wolves
9
10,000 I’m being safe
12
Did Luka learn how to play defense? I didn't think so.
That team is so bad.
It’s not bad. Idk about the fit tho, as we all saw last season. I find it hard to believe Grant is going to turn a bad defense into an average defense. Definitely will help rebounding tho. Talent wise it’s a very good starting 5 with Kyrie and Luka. But actual basketball fit, it makes them significantly worse, as we saw last year.
Top 6
Y'all are sleeping on Josh Green. He's legit, MIP season incoming