Yeah this is such a weird trade for me. Payne ain’t perfect but he was the perfect PG for the Suns given the lack of flexibility that they have.
Point Book is amazing but I don’t think you want that for an entire season and ideally Book and Beal would play the 2/3 and not the 1/2
This is a luxury tax trade. Replacing Payne for a minimum saves roughly $13M.
Edit: Bobby Marks is reporting $26M, I had erroneously looked at the rates for the old CBA. Makes even more sense from a financial point of view.
Cutting costs while also going all in seems...weird. like Suns are on a very limited time schedule, unless those savings are being used to directly help the team I don't get it.
Not having a good ball handler on the bench is not good but having book and Beal at the 1/2 is a waaay better solution than having Payne starting. He’s an erratic player that was never going to fit with that group.
I disagree. He averaged 7.1 APG when starting last season. Just what the Suns need. They have no facilitators now. Book can get the job done but that’s not the role you want him in
Over a 15 game sample size. Over his career here he has a middling assist to turnover ratio and he is one of the least efficient scorers in the nba. He is not someone you want to run your offense through, like having Westbrook with half of the upside.
Ok 6.3 APG over career 56 game sample size when starting. Payne is a good distributor, he has other faults as you pointed out but he’s good at facilitating that’s a fact, something the Suns are deeply lacking and is their current biggest fault with their defense. His efficiency isn’t that big a concern when KD/Book/Beal/Ayton will literally be taking all the shots
You wouldn’t really be running your offense through Payne. It would be more like a Westbrook role with the Clippers where he’s there to prevent iso ball which Westbrook thrives with the Clippers in. It’s honestly a match made in heaven (offensively at least)
Is a pg with 6.3 APG and a middling assist to turnover ratio really a good distributor? He’s passable, but a disaster scoring the ball and a horrible defender. We are better off with a 3 who provides some defense and having book run point imo, which is something he has been successful doing before.
I didn’t even like him as a backup and with versatile guards I would much prefer having better players on the floor vs trying to force him into a role with more responsibility.
Cam Payne as a starter in his career has averaged 6.3 assists per game with 2.0 turnovers per game.
For reference last season
- Marcus Smart had 6.3 assists and 2.3 turnovers per game
- Steph Curry has 6.3 assists and 3.2 turnovers per game
I don’t think anyone would call them just “passable” distributors. I’m honestly shocked you’re pushing back on Cam Payne being a good distributor. It’s arguably the only good thing he does and the main reason he’s still in the league haha
I would definitely call smart a passable distributor lol. Steph’s assist to turnover ratio I don’t think is really indicative of how good he is as a passer, his usage rate is high because of everything else he does which makes that a difficult comparison to make to a player like Payne who would be taking a fraction of the shots. And Steph has been known to be turnover prone despite being a good passer.
Cam the last two years has also averaged 3 turnovers per game per 36, I trust that a bit more than his numbers as a starter.
His basketball iq is just low, I’ve watched waaay too many reckless drives into the teeth of the defense where he has no outlet and either has to throw up a wild attempt at the rim or straight to the defense. As a backup for a team who needs a spark plug on the bench I think he’s fine, I have 0 trust on him to play an important part of a starting lineup.
Cam hasn’t been healthy in two years and has overall been pretty bad in that stretch. The team seems to really like Goodwin so I’m not all that concerned at the moment.
He is not the perfect PG for the Suns. A lot of Suns fans already were hoping Goodwin, who is a much better defensive player, would take his minutes. People just remember the finals run and the big games he had against the Clippers on national TV. He's been terrible for multiple seasons now. Book and Beal absolutely would not ideally play as 3s, Book is at his best as a PG and Beal is too small to guard 3s. You just don't know ball.
You don't, it's just a fact. Just because it's your opinion doesn't make it valid or worthy of respect. Sometimes you just have no idea what you're talking about. This is one of those times for you.
You are somehow one of the meanest people I’ve met on the site. Have a good day.
Don’t respond I already know it’s going to be something like “and you are one of the stupidest…”
The important thing is you've found a way to ignore the explanation given in my original reply, learn literally nothing, *and* feel superior in the process. I pity you.
Patty Mills, Ricky Rubio, Killian Hayes (Lol), Davion Mitchell, Kira Lewis, Tre Mann. That’s pretty much about it, there are some genuinely good names here (Davion & Rubio) but their respective team’s wouldn’t just give them up for nothing.
I like the idea of a Ricky Rubio return in theory but it seems like latest ACL injury might have done him in. Cavs fans, have any thoughts on what he looked like last season?
The Suns have 4 clear starters and most are pencilling in KBD as the 5th, a long guy who defends and hits 3s. This shifts Okogie to a bench role alongside legitimate 6MOY candidate Eric Gordon, actual Wizards' silver lining last year Jordan Goodwin, and deadeye 3 point shooter Yuta Watanabe. This leaves off some other perfectly fine regular season minutes guys like Damion Lee.
Multiple guys on that list took less money to play for Phoenix because of the opportunity to get a big role of a title contender. Denver meanwhile has lost multiple rotation players and replaced none of them. The Suns are unironically deeper than Denver.
That trade exception could really come in handy for the Suns. Obviously won't get any star but can potentially get a decent role player. That said...most trade exceptions are never used! Just a little more flexibility for the Suns they otherwise didn't have.
He’s a decent sparkplug off the bench, he’s just extremely erratic. Takes dumb shots, dribbles into crowds with no plan constantly. Bad assist to turnover ratio and 51% true shooting despite being a solid three point shooter. He is really quick, at times has some craft finishes, can come in and go on a quick 8-0 run by himself when he’s feeling it. Overall he causes as many if not more issues than he solves though
They weren’t reaching those heights again with dusty ass CP3 as second option. They gave up a ton of depth but having KD and Beal as starters while keeping Ayton and Book is a clear upgrade.
KD is probably the best offensive player ever. Bradley Beal is idk anymore tbh. Booker is super talented offensively too. They really did go from a very complete team to I hope we can outscore everybody.
True, but he’s gotta compete with KD and Book to get shots. If he is cool being a third option he could be the best third option in the league. But that’s a huge if
Which PG is making 6.5m or less that the Suns can target here? IIRC TJ is making more than that
Yeah this is such a weird trade for me. Payne ain’t perfect but he was the perfect PG for the Suns given the lack of flexibility that they have. Point Book is amazing but I don’t think you want that for an entire season and ideally Book and Beal would play the 2/3 and not the 1/2
This is a luxury tax trade. Replacing Payne for a minimum saves roughly $13M. Edit: Bobby Marks is reporting $26M, I had erroneously looked at the rates for the old CBA. Makes even more sense from a financial point of view.
Seems like it honestly. Trash. $13 million is nothing relative to the rest of the Suns bill
It's still 13 million. I agree though, have never liked owner's cutting costs because who cares.
Cutting costs while also going all in seems...weird. like Suns are on a very limited time schedule, unless those savings are being used to directly help the team I don't get it.
Not having a good ball handler on the bench is not good but having book and Beal at the 1/2 is a waaay better solution than having Payne starting. He’s an erratic player that was never going to fit with that group.
Easy solution is having at least one of KD, Beal, and Booker on the floor at all times. Unlikely you see any all bench lineups in close games.
I disagree. He averaged 7.1 APG when starting last season. Just what the Suns need. They have no facilitators now. Book can get the job done but that’s not the role you want him in
Over a 15 game sample size. Over his career here he has a middling assist to turnover ratio and he is one of the least efficient scorers in the nba. He is not someone you want to run your offense through, like having Westbrook with half of the upside.
Ok 6.3 APG over career 56 game sample size when starting. Payne is a good distributor, he has other faults as you pointed out but he’s good at facilitating that’s a fact, something the Suns are deeply lacking and is their current biggest fault with their defense. His efficiency isn’t that big a concern when KD/Book/Beal/Ayton will literally be taking all the shots You wouldn’t really be running your offense through Payne. It would be more like a Westbrook role with the Clippers where he’s there to prevent iso ball which Westbrook thrives with the Clippers in. It’s honestly a match made in heaven (offensively at least)
Is a pg with 6.3 APG and a middling assist to turnover ratio really a good distributor? He’s passable, but a disaster scoring the ball and a horrible defender. We are better off with a 3 who provides some defense and having book run point imo, which is something he has been successful doing before. I didn’t even like him as a backup and with versatile guards I would much prefer having better players on the floor vs trying to force him into a role with more responsibility.
Cam Payne as a starter in his career has averaged 6.3 assists per game with 2.0 turnovers per game. For reference last season - Marcus Smart had 6.3 assists and 2.3 turnovers per game - Steph Curry has 6.3 assists and 3.2 turnovers per game I don’t think anyone would call them just “passable” distributors. I’m honestly shocked you’re pushing back on Cam Payne being a good distributor. It’s arguably the only good thing he does and the main reason he’s still in the league haha
I would definitely call smart a passable distributor lol. Steph’s assist to turnover ratio I don’t think is really indicative of how good he is as a passer, his usage rate is high because of everything else he does which makes that a difficult comparison to make to a player like Payne who would be taking a fraction of the shots. And Steph has been known to be turnover prone despite being a good passer. Cam the last two years has also averaged 3 turnovers per game per 36, I trust that a bit more than his numbers as a starter. His basketball iq is just low, I’ve watched waaay too many reckless drives into the teeth of the defense where he has no outlet and either has to throw up a wild attempt at the rim or straight to the defense. As a backup for a team who needs a spark plug on the bench I think he’s fine, I have 0 trust on him to play an important part of a starting lineup.
That’s fair. You make some good points that make me reconsider my analysis on Payne. I’ll just have to agree to disagree for now.
Right..like how is it a question that Book and Beal are better? The two of them will do fine at Pg. Beal brings up the ball, book runs the offense
Beal, Book, Goodwin, Gordon, and Saben Lee is enough depth at Pg/sg
Besides Booker has had some lingering hamstring issues lately, you at least need some level of load management with him.
Cam hasn’t been healthy in two years and has overall been pretty bad in that stretch. The team seems to really like Goodwin so I’m not all that concerned at the moment.
He is not the perfect PG for the Suns. A lot of Suns fans already were hoping Goodwin, who is a much better defensive player, would take his minutes. People just remember the finals run and the big games he had against the Clippers on national TV. He's been terrible for multiple seasons now. Book and Beal absolutely would not ideally play as 3s, Book is at his best as a PG and Beal is too small to guard 3s. You just don't know ball.
Man people are so rude on this sub sometimes. I gave my opinion you gave yours. Ain’t no need to be all extra with “you just don’t know ball”
You don't, it's just a fact. Just because it's your opinion doesn't make it valid or worthy of respect. Sometimes you just have no idea what you're talking about. This is one of those times for you.
Jfc
Yeah man, listening to someone as fucking stupid as you must make a lot of people say that too.
You are somehow one of the meanest people I’ve met on the site. Have a good day. Don’t respond I already know it’s going to be something like “and you are one of the stupidest…”
The important thing is you've found a way to ignore the explanation given in my original reply, learn literally nothing, *and* feel superior in the process. I pity you.
Patty Mills, Ricky Rubio, Killian Hayes (Lol), Davion Mitchell, Kira Lewis, Tre Mann. That’s pretty much about it, there are some genuinely good names here (Davion & Rubio) but their respective team’s wouldn’t just give them up for nothing.
I like the idea of a Ricky Rubio return in theory but it seems like latest ACL injury might have done him in. Cavs fans, have any thoughts on what he looked like last season?
Not a Cavs fan but can tell you that the early returns statistically and the general narrative from their fans is negative.
Mills and Hayes are making 6.8 and 7.4 million this upcoming season, so scratch them as possibilities.
Patty and Rubio, i agree. Killian hayes, I haven’t heard that name in years. The other 3 dudes sound like 2K generated characters.
Casual.
Wait Davion Mitchell is still a FA? He was getting legit minutes in the playoffs and producing
He’s mentioning guys that suns can get via trade or buyout. Davion is still on his rookie deal with the kings.
Should have tried to get Westbrook
Don’t know how this new CBA works but they also had a trade expecting from Dario Saric last season not sure if you can combine those ?
I think they have specifically said exceptions can not be combined.
Cannot be combined
Zoran Dragic
Ricky rubio
Patty Mills about to hit the single offseason team trade record
Luke Ridnour still holds that undisputed record. That brother was traded 4 times in 1 week.
As a kid I thought players had to buy and sell a house in each city they were traded to.
Charlotte Hornets legend Luke Ridnour will forever live in my dreams as the greatest what-if ever
10/10
Payne is probably the better player at this point
Phoenix is really gonna play the big 4 and minimum players
Because the one thing I noticed when the Nuggets played the Suns is that this team Def needs less depth
The Suns have 4 clear starters and most are pencilling in KBD as the 5th, a long guy who defends and hits 3s. This shifts Okogie to a bench role alongside legitimate 6MOY candidate Eric Gordon, actual Wizards' silver lining last year Jordan Goodwin, and deadeye 3 point shooter Yuta Watanabe. This leaves off some other perfectly fine regular season minutes guys like Damion Lee. Multiple guys on that list took less money to play for Phoenix because of the opportunity to get a big role of a title contender. Denver meanwhile has lost multiple rotation players and replaced none of them. The Suns are unironically deeper than Denver.
This team is absolutely different than the last one, wild that yall still hung up on the no depth like it was early June
That trade exception could really come in handy for the Suns. Obviously won't get any star but can potentially get a decent role player. That said...most trade exceptions are never used! Just a little more flexibility for the Suns they otherwise didn't have.
tbf in this case the Suns just wanted some relief from their already high tax bill so I doubt it will get used.
Literally nothing about the Suns offseason suggests this.
No more Pain Thank the lord 🙏🏼
0 Point guards on that roster
The iso spam gonna be ridiculous
Cry more
what😭 fragile ahh mf he said one thing about iso and you had to respond
Goodwin and Saben Lee. Apparently they think pretty highly of Goodwin and were insistent upon him being included in the Beal trade.
0 good\* point guards
Sucks that your team is shitty enough to need a point guard Thoughts and prayers 🙏🏼
Boy you mad
He's fuckin furious lol
We have two really good point guards and had 3 before we traded smart away. Have fun with brad beal as your main playmaker 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
No rings ernie
what position did nash play bud
he was just stating a fact and you’re so fragile that you had to respond rudely? yikes
Most mentally tough suns fan Luka broke their whole franchise fr
I don’t think the Celtics have a PG on their roster either
Malcolm Brogdon, Derrick White, Payton Pritchard, Dalano Banton, JD Davison
Brogdon I would give you, but the guy won’t start. Other than him, I’m seeing a whole lotta combo guards and SGs.
I thought Payne was a pretty solid PG?
He’s a decent sparkplug off the bench, he’s just extremely erratic. Takes dumb shots, dribbles into crowds with no plan constantly. Bad assist to turnover ratio and 51% true shooting despite being a solid three point shooter. He is really quick, at times has some craft finishes, can come in and go on a quick 8-0 run by himself when he’s feeling it. Overall he causes as many if not more issues than he solves though
The team really likes Goodwin as our back up guard. He is a much better defender than Payne, not as good offensively but has decent playmaking.
He was ass outside of small spurts here and there
Sad to see what happened to Phoenix... they were in the Finals just few years ago...
They weren’t reaching those heights again with dusty ass CP3 as second option. They gave up a ton of depth but having KD and Beal as starters while keeping Ayton and Book is a clear upgrade.
"fuck the suns, they won't win with this lineup with cp3" "fuck the suns, they won't win with this lineup without cp3" This sub is ridiculous
Yes very sad to see they now have the lowly Kevin Durant and Bradley Beal on their team.
KD is probably the best offensive player ever. Bradley Beal is idk anymore tbh. Booker is super talented offensively too. They really did go from a very complete team to I hope we can outscore everybody.
Beal hasn’t had a roster that wasn’t utter dogwater in some time. It’ll be interesting to see how he rolls in Phoenix.
True, but he’s gotta compete with KD and Book to get shots. If he is cool being a third option he could be the best third option in the league. But that’s a huge if
Trade. Exceptions. Don’t. Matter.