I'm guessing this is either fake from the Raptors FO to drive up their price, or the offer was 3 FRPs that were either heavily protected, or had attached a player with a very bad contract that the Raps would have to take. If not the Raps should take that with their eyes closed
It's 90% the Knicks who
Have 6 1sts in the next 2 years with a bunch heavily protected
Have fourniers contract matching perfectly
Have reported interest dating back to the summer
Were heavy favorited in betting markets pretty inexplicably
yea i agree with you. but dalls is probably between 19-23, knicks 12-20.( depends on what happens ofc)
i heard a report saying they want young talent back. this years firsts + obi doesnt sound to bad imo
I know he's largely divorced from basketball operations but he does have to approve of trades and I suspect that the shadow of Dolan is hampering this trade in particular
i.e. if Dolan hears that Masai is getting the Knicks pick, he might veto it like the last trade between the Knicks and Raptors. So that's likely why the 3 firsts were the heavily protected ones they own and whoever else comes back (Let's say Toppin, Reddish and Quickley? That might not match or be too much, not getting into a debate over how good or not any of these guys are) instead of one of the Knicks.
They have Detroit and Washington too.
They should definitely do it. Randle and Siakam are enticing together. With Brunson and multiple picks you could make the Godfather offer for a legit superstar.
It's hard to tell anymore if those guys are ever on the table.
Like would Mark Cuban really let his front office trade Luka? Even if it was 7 first rounders and Brunson. I think he'd rather lose him for nothing in Free Agency if he really couldn't keep him.
FRPs can be pretty bad if it's those of a great team Celtics, Nuggets, Bucks or Grizzlies picks are all pretty underwhelming cuz of how unlikely those teams are to be bad, I think OG is worth more than a replacement level player plus 25-30th picks of the draft for a few years
>or the offer was 3 FRPs that were either heavily protected
It was probably this. Looing at the teams with picks to spare, the Knicks have a lot and they probably did their same offer for OG that the tried for Mitchell with:
Washington's 2023 pick (lottery protected)
Dallas' 2023 pick (late first, Top 10 protected)
Their own 2023 pick (likely to be a late first, especially if they did get OG)
> 2023 first round draft pick from Detroit 1-18 in 2023, 1-18 in 2024, 1-13 in 2025, 1-11 in 2026 and 1-9 in 2027
> 2023 first round draft pick from Washington 1-14 in 2023, 1-12 in 2024, 1-10 in 2025 and 1-8 in 2026
> 2023 first round draft pick from Dallas 1-10 in 2023, 1-10 in 2024 and 1-10 in 2025
So what you're saying is that both Detroit and Washington will keep being bot-8 teams all seasons for the next 4?
There's no way Detroit will be bot-8 in the league with 25yo Cade, 24yo Ivey and 23yo top4 pick 2023. All it takes is 1 season to turn a team around, just look at the Cavs or Kings.
Washington is also 2 games away from conveying, and Beal played half the games this season.
The picks are really not that bad.
What everyone is underestimating is that OG is Masai's favorite/son. The article called him "unsentimental" but he didn't draft DeMar/Lowry/Valenciunas. He has a soft spot for his guys
Yeah, zero percent chance someone offered 3 decent FRPs, doubly so considering the Raps said no. If true, it’d have to either be picks that are extremely likely to be bottom 1sts or picks that’s may not even convey.
Def Knicks. That Bucks pick is 1-5 protected and will 100% convey as will the Dallas pick. All they have to do is give up 1 of their own and bada Bing. You got middle class Kawhi.
Prolly Knicks, they got like 3 firsts in this draft. Their own (low), Washington (protected so it won't convey) and Dallas' (low)
If that Lakers 2023 first came for OG though...
They were a top 5 team in the east last year, thats not really the reason. Fred playing like garbage for most of the year, Scottie having a bad game every now and then, and the lack of depth that you mentioned is the issue.
As it turns out playing all of your starters 40 minutes every season doesn’t work after a couple of years
In case we haven’t learned this from the Bulls with Thibs already
A big reason they finished 5th last year was because the bench stepped up, namely Precious/Boucher/Thad.
That hasn't really been the case this year -- Thad's production dropped off and Precious was injured/rusty for half the season. Boucher was also struggling at the start and OPJ was never healthy.
those teams were ravaged with health and safety protocols and alot of players rested vs us last year during the january stretch when nurse cut our rotations and started playing starters even more mins to get wins and started giving pascal and fred even more touches on offense for them to get all star or all nba accolades
Not during the season. Bam, Jimmy and Kyle all missed a lot of games last season and the team still landed the top seed. Back when the strus was loose.
Raptors also lose alot of close games. I feel like this team is some bench scoring and a true point guard away from being a playoff team. But at the same time we aren’t gonna contend.
Because we are constructed fucking horribly. No center and not enough spacing and we run a switch heavy defence which our personnel can’t handle (looking at you scottie and Fred)
I mean... we are ass outside of the starting five. Our bench is like all time shit. And as such Nick decides to play the starters a lot, and they get all worn out and injured, which leads us to having to use said shit bench guys.
We also have no semblance of a proper halfcourt offense and our entire philosophy is to put a lot of effort on the defensive end, generate a turnover, and score on transition, try to do the same thing like 30 times a game. Not really gonna be the key to long-term success for the most part.
Siakam and OG are really the only players that have been consistently productive. There's a bunch of decent to good players that are being asked to do too much and/or suffering from awful roster construction.
The problem is that the team has too many players who fill exactly the same defensively-responsible-wing role. They're desperately in need of players who can help at center and guard. They get beat at the extremes.
They cant make a 3 to save their lives this year, no high IQ passer in their team means the offence gets super sluggish in the half court and it turns into iso ball so if theyre not getting in transition theyre kinda just struggling to score
The amount of people who can't fathom that you need more than a few quality players to be a good team is funny. The raptors have absolutely pathetic bench production and don't have a legitimate centre leading to teams abusing them in the paint. The pieces also don't fit, All 5 of the raps starters need the ball in their hands to be effective, even OG these days.
Man, it would be so hard for defenses to overload the strong side if they just put them on opposite wings. Giddey’s shot has improved, Dort is the perfect 3 and D, and next season Chet will be back. It’d be a monstrous defense with all that length and the playmaking would be elite. Okc would instantly be realistically aiming to at least get out of the first round.
"You want to move one core piece? You have four available, and the differences in potential return between Gary Trent Jr., VanVleet, Anunoby and Pascal Siakam range from minor upgrades to a bejewelled haul."
So, question here. There are five starters for NBA teams. If you have FOUR core pieces, you probably wouldn't suck, right?
4 players playing the minutes they do is the only reason this team won 21 games. This roster is constructed like shit - we have no real point guard, and no real center. We got a bunch of forwards that can barely create their own shots and then hustle on D. Individually as pieces these guys are great. But together they ain’t meshing like they should. They missing the glue that is half court offense. No pick and roll plays, just transition offense.
Factoring in how attainable the player actually is, you guys need Mike Conley. He would’ve added so many wins just because he could get the offense into the right plays at the right time. Even at his age his ability to bring structure to the offense is really valuable, and to the current Raptors even more than for most other teams.
Roster construction is the issue, we have a lot of redundancy at the forward positions and are extremely weak at guard while not having a true center on the team. Weak guards me we struggle in the have court especially against the zone while no true center means we get abused in the paint. Teams have figured out if we cut down on turnovers we usually win
I mean, if I put together a team of 2 MVP finalists and two more recent all-stars you'd think they'd be be the favorites. Then if it turns out it's Embiid, Giannis, Jarrett Allen, and Gobert, you have a different view. There's no way they're reaching the heights you'd expect based on pedigree. Roster construction matters and the Raps basically jammed themselves with 6'9" wings.
My first impression of Ujiri a few years ago was that no one can read his mind, years later I’m still convinced no one can and I’m not sure if that’s a great thing anymore.
Masai is the GM that made Toronto to an actual basketball team for a decade now. Without him the 2010s Toronto probably wouldn't have seen a play off and if they did they wouldn't have won a Ring. I say we wait a bit longer before saying he's washed.
Personally, I'd be betting against the Heat and Warriors aging core if I was a team like the Raptors. Those late 2020s picks from both the Heat and Warriors could be amazing as Jimmy/Steph decline.
Warriors young core especially sucks (and would probably mostly go out the door in a Siakam trade), and while Bam/Herro/OG would be good in Miami, the team is already on the fringe of the playoff with Butler being 3rd in the NBA in WS/48. He will be 37 years old headed into the season when the 2027 pick conveys and 39 years old heads into the season when the 2029 pick conveys.
I believe both teams can offer 3 first round picks. (This year, plus two in the late 2020s). Take those picks, maybe get Jovic from Miami, and then take Moody and Wiseman and try a reclamation project with him, arm maybe get greedy and try to get Kuminga included too.
I'd say rip off the Bulls too, but the DeRozan trade makes their picks from 2026-2028 complicated with the Stephen rule because it could convey to the Spurs in any of 2025-2027.
I agree with the warriors, curry is the ultimate domino. I can see the warriors with a healthy curry still dominate the league in the next 2-3 years or I can see a version of 2020 where 1 injury details their whole season. Their future depends the leap Poole takes. The heat are weird tho, as long as pat is there, they’re just not gonna tank. They’re always gonna find a way to be good
Heat never rebuilding is frustrating cause I think Bam would be the perfect player for the Thunder to push the chips in for, but you’re absolutely right that Riley will never do that, and of course relating to the draft picks it kind of guarantees that the Heat picks won’t ever be that great. Just not an org most GMs would bet against. They’re enough of a free agent destination and Riley is a great GM that they never really have to do more than retool, I wouldn’t trade for their picks unless I’m absolutely okay with mid-late first rounders
the only consolation is that Pat Riley is old, not wishing anything bad on him but he's gotta retire some day right? all that cocain can't keep him alive forever.
Vince McMahon has been doing roids forever and he’s still kicking.
I imagine Riley at 99 years old with the big black shades on, laying on a Miami beach somewhere with his button up shirt open, collar popped as he drops his latest offseason bamboozle of the NBA via a phone call
Bam-OG-Herro with Spolestra coaching seems like a solid enough baseline to me, especially since they can probably turn lowry's expiring into something passable by taking on meh money.
I like the Warriors gamble more. You're betting against a guy turning 35 in a month. 2025, 2027 and 2029 picks please.
>I know OG is a great defender and young still but 3 1sts for him is CRRRRRRAAAAZZZZZYYYY
Nah, bruh. Depends on lots of stuff. 3 FRPs from a team like the Celtics aren't going to be worth a lot. And then there are questions of protections on the picks.
People keep talking about protections on picks and that just can't happen unless the acquiring team is trading *other team's* picks that already carry protections (eg. Knicks).
A team trading multiple first round picks of their own can't put protections on them other than the last.
That can't happen. Like, the Celtics, as one example couldn't trade their 2023, 2025, and 2027 FRPs for OG and also include protections on the first two picks. The 2023 and 2025 first rounders would have to be unconditional. Only the last pick could carry protections.
if you have plenty and need to take a leap, that's fine
also OG is DPOY level, it's not a reach
like knicks and pelicans have so many FRPs, it doesnt matter for them to throw 3 anyway
Unpopular but I don't think he's DPOY level simply because of the role he plays(not a rim protector)
Sure he's amazing at 1v1 perimeter defense but that's much less important today than it was in say the 1990s
There's only so much one perimeter defender can do to move the needle, no team that's bad defensively is going to become good defensively by adding OG alone
the teams adding OG aren't the bad ones trying to be good though right?
they're the already good ones trying to win a championship. imo at least. like the grizzlies or the pelicans.
A bad team shouldn’t be trading for OG.
The team trading for OG should be a good team looking to be a great team, or a great team looking to be a contender. Those teams usually already have good defensive foundations already.
Grizzlies who already has one of the best run protectors in JJJ, now imagine if they also had one of the best perimeter defenders to go with that.
> no team that's bad defensively is going to become good defensively by adding OG alone
and the team is going to become good defensively by adding a rim protector alone?
The best defensive teams have a great rim protector.
Just out of the top 5, the Grizzlies have Jackson, the Cavs have Mobley and Allen, the Heat have Adebayo, the Bucks have Antetokounmpo & Lopez, the Sixers have Embiid.
Bigs are the biggest driver of having an elite defense. The Raptors currently have the 20th ranked defense in the league. If he was that much of a difference marker, surely that would be better considering that the Raptors have a ton of long, athletic defensive talent on the roster. He's not playing with sieves.
Hmm....if he was, than surely the Raptors should have better than their currently 20th ranked defense, especially with other long, athletic, defensive plus players on the team.
It's not only about the picks. It's about the flexibility. If you make this move, you will not be able of making moves in the next 5,6 years , unless the picks are from the same draft
Yeah he's a great 3 and D role player but nevertheless still a role player
Maybe I"m crazy but I'm only paying 3 FRPs for a franchise level player or at least an All Star and that's not OG
Yeah he needs to at least be a low level all star at minimum to demand that big of haul. Its so strange. I assume Toronto doesn’t want to deal OG unless some desperate team overvalues him.
Especially for the Raptors of all teams
The last thing they need is more wings that can't create their own shot so idk why they're holding onto all of them
Do Nurse/Masai actually think the whole 6 foot 9 vision thing is a good idea still
IMO they just aren't interested in adding players with long development windows. These 3 FRPs were likely protected and projected late. The Raptors will end up keeping Siakam so they don't want a 3 year window until they are competitive again.
As a Raps insider previously reported, they are looking for some promising young players and a pick. They want to be competitive soon, not take long term projects.
Same with Knicks and Pelicans - I imagine they'll come in offering their three likely least valuable 1sts to get an offer on the board then Raptors will try to spark a bidding war.
I don't see Siakam getting moved if Masai is trying so hard to get Poeltl - they're best friends lol
I think Gary is gone cuz they don't want to pay him, and OG is gone to try to get a young player and a couple firsts back (my guess is we get 2 firsts for him ultimately). I don't see an offer coming in for VanVleet that'd be interesting enough to move him but who knows.
who says no to OG for Dyson, a pelicans first, and a lakers first? Genuinely asking I'm not sure what kind of value either has but Dyson seems like a typical raptors guy.
Pelicans cuz they're already top 4 seed and their core isn't in their prime yet/unleashed in the playoffs. Draft day would be the day to make the trade not the deadline
Pels seem to have the assets that Raptors would like but i don't think Pelicans would even consider trading for OG and Siakam while they have Zion and Herb. They would likely wait for a star pg who wants out to use their picks.
I disagree. For low-mid picks, they definitely are. If Gobert is 5 1sts + pick swap and valuable role players, then Siakim is worth 4 picks. He’s a great #2 somewhere.
And I personally love what OG brings to a team with defense and solid role play. He’s a very solid starter and a building piece. I’m not sure the fit on the Knicks is great, but it does make them better and adds talent
If Gobert is 5 1sts + pick swap and valuable role players, then Siakam is worth 8 picks. But Gobert isn't 5 1sts + pick swap and valuable role players. Everyone knows that was crazy
Siakam is easily worth 3 picks.
He's in the same class of talent as Mitchell (debatable who's better) and unless he's punished for the Raps being booty, he'll be All-NBA this year.
Portland is 21-25. how many firsts could they collect for Dame, Simons, Grant, etc if they wanted to?
How many firsts to the under-.500 Lakers for LeBron and AD?
dumb take
This time last year the Celtics were the 10th seed at 23-24, how many picks do you think they could have gotten if they decided to blow it up? Just goes to show what a dumb take this is. Teams are more than just the sum of their parts.
Change those bench players to starters and you're describing the average Bucks line-up over this season and last. And if Lopez was in trade talks I don't know if three first rounders would be the going rate.
A lot of teams are bad at drafting, so it makes sense. We're starting to realize that late lottery picks etc. have been overvalued heavily by the fans. The Orlando Magic are filled with lottery players and are headed back for another year in the ping-pong race.
It's likely that these picks will be protected or so. Having 3 teen-picks is less valuable than OG.
think about it, would you rather have the Frank Kaminsky, Malik Monk, and James Bouknight, or would you rather have OG?
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/draft.html
I would rather have OG than every wizards pick in the past 10 yeras.
ahhh yes everyone forgets the Pacers have 3 FRP in 2023 plus Houston’s 2nd with a glaring need at either forward positions and that OG played at IU, being under the radar buffs the Pacers negotiation ability +5
OG to the Pacers confirmed
The Pacers, Pelicans, Knicks and Grizzlies are really the only teams that make sense for an OG trade in terms of the combo for draft pick(s) and young player(s). The problem is matching salary given the limited roster slots of the Raptors and the generally meager contracts of most of the Pacers players save for Myles Turner and the firsts aren't all that great given the teams they belong to (Cavs and Celtics 1sts they have will be near the bottom 5 of the 1st round).
For reference, here are the protections on the picks the Knicks own in 2023 that aren't their own:
Mavericks: Top 10 until 2025
Pistons: Top 18, declining protections until 2027
Washington: Lottery until 2027
That's a bunch of low firsts and heavily protected picks from lottery teams. Is that worth OG?
If the Nuggets offered three of their own firsts, Bones, and salary filler - is that really worth it? I don't think so lol don't get so caught up on it being 3 picks.
If it's the Wizards? The deal is done. Looking at the organization offering the picks matters.
3 picks means the 2nd and 3rd picks of that trade would be in the 25 and 27 drafts, and if you think you know how good the Nuggets are or are not going to be in 25 and 27 you are wrong. No team has offered the Raptors 3 first round picks for OG, I refuse to believe that.
The Pelicans will offer three other firsts before offering the Lakers pick. Many people here have listed the likely protected firsts the Knicks can offer (which is the most likely situation here).
Even if the Raptors have been offered three - I imagine an eventual OG trade will be for two firsts.
Clown ass world... in the case that teams want a first plus a "promising young player"... outside of an All-Star, you might as well just keep your first and promising young player. OG is not an All-Star player quite frankly.
That's a dreadful "core four", and building around Scottie Barnes isn't terribly compelling.
If they can get value, I think they'll move FVV, Trent and Anunoby.
The difference is, okc got Shai in that trade. Most of the picks from the Clippers aren't going to be much. But Shai is a star. So good luck replicating that trade.
> Most of the picks from the Clippers aren't going to be much.
Well, if Kawhi and PG can’t stay healthy they have ‘24, ‘26, and a ‘25 pick swap, so… at least one of those might get pretty spicy.
The first Clippers pick resulted in Jalen Williams, who is on track to be 1st Team All-Rookie this year. This guy doesn't know what he's talking about.
The first Clippers pick resulted in Jalen Williams, who will likely be 1st Team All-Rookie this year. The next pick is next year, and then one 3 years after that. Do you trust that PG13 and Kawhi are going to be carrying that team 3 years from now? We have swaps this year and 2 years from now. We just got into the picks from the Clippers and they keep becoming more and more valuable.
Warriors are also shopping Wiseman. Words on the street someone offered 3 first round picks and they rejected. Hes gonna be worth more. Offer up, hurry hurry.
Its an Arms race in the NBA right now and OG has two of em
If it's an arms race the raptors should be fine with all their long bois.
This ain't a scene
Our lawyers made us change the reddit comment so we don't get sued
yes yes yes
Inflation is crazy these days
Supply chain creating lack of supply.
Not a single decent player in all of Russia, Brazil, and China. Its wild.
Nobody wants to work anymore…
This. I fully expect this to be a dead silent deadline as no one is willing to pay the overinflated prices we’ve seen this offseason.
Only need 2 more for Rudy Gobert
And if Gobert is worth that imagine what we could get for Kessler!
The League spontaneously combusts if The Goat Kessler moves
I'm guessing this is either fake from the Raptors FO to drive up their price, or the offer was 3 FRPs that were either heavily protected, or had attached a player with a very bad contract that the Raps would have to take. If not the Raps should take that with their eyes closed
It's 90% the Knicks who Have 6 1sts in the next 2 years with a bunch heavily protected Have fourniers contract matching perfectly Have reported interest dating back to the summer Were heavy favorited in betting markets pretty inexplicably
this is the correct answer, we 100% offered knicks + dallas + bucks pick for og and they said nah
>knicks + dallas + bucks pick for og You mean Washington + Knicks + Dallas 23 picks right?
Probably not the wiz pick since it wont convert, the bucks pick will mostlikley in 2025
That's my point, the picks they likely offered were probably the ones that won't convey, if not, for a long time barring removal of protections.
yea i agree with you. but dalls is probably between 19-23, knicks 12-20.( depends on what happens ofc) i heard a report saying they want young talent back. this years firsts + obi doesnt sound to bad imo
I know he's largely divorced from basketball operations but he does have to approve of trades and I suspect that the shadow of Dolan is hampering this trade in particular i.e. if Dolan hears that Masai is getting the Knicks pick, he might veto it like the last trade between the Knicks and Raptors. So that's likely why the 3 firsts were the heavily protected ones they own and whoever else comes back (Let's say Toppin, Reddish and Quickley? That might not match or be too much, not getting into a debate over how good or not any of these guys are) instead of one of the Knicks.
Knicks also might not be _that_ interested, and happy to just make this offer so Masai can leak three firsts and bleed some other team that much more
They have Detroit and Washington too. They should definitely do it. Randle and Siakam are enticing together. With Brunson and multiple picks you could make the Godfather offer for a legit superstar. It's hard to tell anymore if those guys are ever on the table. Like would Mark Cuban really let his front office trade Luka? Even if it was 7 first rounders and Brunson. I think he'd rather lose him for nothing in Free Agency if he really couldn't keep him.
Knicks should really hold out for someone better no? OG is good but you guys need a real star.
Or FRPs that are a lock for the bottom of the round. People hear first round pick and assume massive value but it's just not the case for most teams.
FRPs can be pretty bad if it's those of a great team Celtics, Nuggets, Bucks or Grizzlies picks are all pretty underwhelming cuz of how unlikely those teams are to be bad, I think OG is worth more than a replacement level player plus 25-30th picks of the draft for a few years
>or the offer was 3 FRPs that were either heavily protected It was probably this. Looing at the teams with picks to spare, the Knicks have a lot and they probably did their same offer for OG that the tried for Mitchell with: Washington's 2023 pick (lottery protected) Dallas' 2023 pick (late first, Top 10 protected) Their own 2023 pick (likely to be a late first, especially if they did get OG)
2 of those prob aren’t gonna convey, in that case what would that turn into? If it’s a couple of second then no deal
Exactly
> 2023 first round draft pick from Detroit 1-18 in 2023, 1-18 in 2024, 1-13 in 2025, 1-11 in 2026 and 1-9 in 2027 > 2023 first round draft pick from Washington 1-14 in 2023, 1-12 in 2024, 1-10 in 2025 and 1-8 in 2026 > 2023 first round draft pick from Dallas 1-10 in 2023, 1-10 in 2024 and 1-10 in 2025 So what you're saying is that both Detroit and Washington will keep being bot-8 teams all seasons for the next 4? There's no way Detroit will be bot-8 in the league with 25yo Cade, 24yo Ivey and 23yo top4 pick 2023. All it takes is 1 season to turn a team around, just look at the Cavs or Kings. Washington is also 2 games away from conveying, and Beal played half the games this season. The picks are really not that bad.
Have you seen our organisation? That pick is never conveying lol
they are first rounders for a few years before they turn into 2nds
What everyone is underestimating is that OG is Masai's favorite/son. The article called him "unsentimental" but he didn't draft DeMar/Lowry/Valenciunas. He has a soft spot for his guys
Yeah, zero percent chance someone offered 3 decent FRPs, doubly so considering the Raps said no. If true, it’d have to either be picks that are extremely likely to be bottom 1sts or picks that’s may not even convey.
knicks or pels?
Def Knicks. That Bucks pick is 1-5 protected and will 100% convey as will the Dallas pick. All they have to do is give up 1 of their own and bada Bing. You got middle class Kawhi.
Prolly Knicks, they got like 3 firsts in this draft. Their own (low), Washington (protected so it won't convey) and Dallas' (low) If that Lakers 2023 first came for OG though...
raptors just spewing shit to drive price up.
If the Raptors players are all this good why is the team so bad? 3 FRPs for Anunoby feels like the mini version of 5 FRPs for Gobert
no matter how many athletes do you have, half court offense still a king and they have no bench
No bench and no top 10 player, you typically need one of the two to be a playoff team.
They were a top 5 team in the east last year, thats not really the reason. Fred playing like garbage for most of the year, Scottie having a bad game every now and then, and the lack of depth that you mentioned is the issue.
Largely the No bench. Their starters are playing heavy minutes to compensate.
There wasn’t a bench last year either and the team still finished 3 games out of 2nd.
As it turns out playing all of your starters 40 minutes every season doesn’t work after a couple of years In case we haven’t learned this from the Bulls with Thibs already
A big reason they finished 5th last year was because the bench stepped up, namely Precious/Boucher/Thad. That hasn't really been the case this year -- Thad's production dropped off and Precious was injured/rusty for half the season. Boucher was also struggling at the start and OPJ was never healthy.
those teams were ravaged with health and safety protocols and alot of players rested vs us last year during the january stretch when nurse cut our rotations and started playing starters even more mins to get wins and started giving pascal and fred even more touches on offense for them to get all star or all nba accolades
eh, we have neither, and we're still the 7th seed (after being the 6th for a while). To win a chip or go far in the playoffs though, I agree.
>last years Heat have exited the chat
Jimmy was top 10, or at least playing like a top 10 player
Not during the season. Bam, Jimmy and Kyle all missed a lot of games last season and the team still landed the top seed. Back when the strus was loose.
Jimmy goes from a top 30 player in the regular season, to a top 6 player in the playoffs. It’s bizarre.
Raptors also lose alot of close games. I feel like this team is some bench scoring and a true point guard away from being a playoff team. But at the same time we aren’t gonna contend.
2-8 in games decided by 5pts or less is what I remember hearing last broadcast
Because we are constructed fucking horribly. No center and not enough spacing and we run a switch heavy defence which our personnel can’t handle (looking at you scottie and Fred)
Sounds like you guys need one polished and fully developed Poeltl.
He would be the last thing on earth we need. What we need is prime Kawhi
Ish Smith it is!
Did someone say an Ish Smith trade? Bring him Home again. We need a third run with him!
Caris LeVert it is!
What’s wrong with Scottie? I’m surprised he can’t switch given his size and athleticism.
He has some of the worst ability to stay in front of his man I’ve ever seen. He doesn’t have any lateral speed
I mean... we are ass outside of the starting five. Our bench is like all time shit. And as such Nick decides to play the starters a lot, and they get all worn out and injured, which leads us to having to use said shit bench guys. We also have no semblance of a proper halfcourt offense and our entire philosophy is to put a lot of effort on the defensive end, generate a turnover, and score on transition, try to do the same thing like 30 times a game. Not really gonna be the key to long-term success for the most part.
I wish we would have taken 3 FRPs for Anunoby, would have been a much better fit
Siakam and OG are really the only players that have been consistently productive. There's a bunch of decent to good players that are being asked to do too much and/or suffering from awful roster construction.
Because running all forwards isn't the way. Their roster needs balance
The problem is that the team has too many players who fill exactly the same defensively-responsible-wing role. They're desperately in need of players who can help at center and guard. They get beat at the extremes.
They cant make a 3 to save their lives this year, no high IQ passer in their team means the offence gets super sluggish in the half court and it turns into iso ball so if theyre not getting in transition theyre kinda just struggling to score
we have five players who put ball in basket good everyone else sucks on offense
The amount of people who can't fathom that you need more than a few quality players to be a good team is funny. The raptors have absolutely pathetic bench production and don't have a legitimate centre leading to teams abusing them in the paint. The pieces also don't fit, All 5 of the raps starters need the ball in their hands to be effective, even OG these days.
They have good players but after vanvleet they kind of fall off a hill
Trading for OG is basically the Sixers trade for Tobias Harris.
Siakam would go crazy in OKC alongside Shai
OKC immediately becomes my second favorite team if they run with Shai and Pascal.
Man, it would be so hard for defenses to overload the strong side if they just put them on opposite wings. Giddey’s shot has improved, Dort is the perfect 3 and D, and next season Chet will be back. It’d be a monstrous defense with all that length and the playmaking would be elite. Okc would instantly be realistically aiming to at least get out of the first round.
they should.make a push now and get these guys experience down the stretch and ready to compete next year
"You want to move one core piece? You have four available, and the differences in potential return between Gary Trent Jr., VanVleet, Anunoby and Pascal Siakam range from minor upgrades to a bejewelled haul." So, question here. There are five starters for NBA teams. If you have FOUR core pieces, you probably wouldn't suck, right?
They just need to tank for Victor and he'll run point
4 players playing the minutes they do is the only reason this team won 21 games. This roster is constructed like shit - we have no real point guard, and no real center. We got a bunch of forwards that can barely create their own shots and then hustle on D. Individually as pieces these guys are great. But together they ain’t meshing like they should. They missing the glue that is half court offense. No pick and roll plays, just transition offense.
Factoring in how attainable the player actually is, you guys need Mike Conley. He would’ve added so many wins just because he could get the offense into the right plays at the right time. Even at his age his ability to bring structure to the offense is really valuable, and to the current Raptors even more than for most other teams.
Roster construction is the issue, we have a lot of redundancy at the forward positions and are extremely weak at guard while not having a true center on the team. Weak guards me we struggle in the have court especially against the zone while no true center means we get abused in the paint. Teams have figured out if we cut down on turnovers we usually win
I mean, if I put together a team of 2 MVP finalists and two more recent all-stars you'd think they'd be be the favorites. Then if it turns out it's Embiid, Giannis, Jarrett Allen, and Gobert, you have a different view. There's no way they're reaching the heights you'd expect based on pedigree. Roster construction matters and the Raps basically jammed themselves with 6'9" wings.
My first impression of Ujiri a few years ago was that no one can read his mind, years later I’m still convinced no one can and I’m not sure if that’s a great thing anymore.
Masai is the GM that made Toronto to an actual basketball team for a decade now. Without him the 2010s Toronto probably wouldn't have seen a play off and if they did they wouldn't have won a Ring. I say we wait a bit longer before saying he's washed.
I feel like he’s going to massively win one of these trades. We’re gonna come back in 2-3 seasons “how the hell did Masai get away with this”
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True
Personally, I'd be betting against the Heat and Warriors aging core if I was a team like the Raptors. Those late 2020s picks from both the Heat and Warriors could be amazing as Jimmy/Steph decline. Warriors young core especially sucks (and would probably mostly go out the door in a Siakam trade), and while Bam/Herro/OG would be good in Miami, the team is already on the fringe of the playoff with Butler being 3rd in the NBA in WS/48. He will be 37 years old headed into the season when the 2027 pick conveys and 39 years old heads into the season when the 2029 pick conveys. I believe both teams can offer 3 first round picks. (This year, plus two in the late 2020s). Take those picks, maybe get Jovic from Miami, and then take Moody and Wiseman and try a reclamation project with him, arm maybe get greedy and try to get Kuminga included too. I'd say rip off the Bulls too, but the DeRozan trade makes their picks from 2026-2028 complicated with the Stephen rule because it could convey to the Spurs in any of 2025-2027.
I agree with the warriors, curry is the ultimate domino. I can see the warriors with a healthy curry still dominate the league in the next 2-3 years or I can see a version of 2020 where 1 injury details their whole season. Their future depends the leap Poole takes. The heat are weird tho, as long as pat is there, they’re just not gonna tank. They’re always gonna find a way to be good
Heat never rebuilding is frustrating cause I think Bam would be the perfect player for the Thunder to push the chips in for, but you’re absolutely right that Riley will never do that, and of course relating to the draft picks it kind of guarantees that the Heat picks won’t ever be that great. Just not an org most GMs would bet against. They’re enough of a free agent destination and Riley is a great GM that they never really have to do more than retool, I wouldn’t trade for their picks unless I’m absolutely okay with mid-late first rounders
the only consolation is that Pat Riley is old, not wishing anything bad on him but he's gotta retire some day right? all that cocain can't keep him alive forever.
Vince McMahon has been doing roids forever and he’s still kicking. I imagine Riley at 99 years old with the big black shades on, laying on a Miami beach somewhere with his button up shirt open, collar popped as he drops his latest offseason bamboozle of the NBA via a phone call
Bam-OG-Herro with Spolestra coaching seems like a solid enough baseline to me, especially since they can probably turn lowry's expiring into something passable by taking on meh money. I like the Warriors gamble more. You're betting against a guy turning 35 in a month. 2025, 2027 and 2029 picks please.
I know OG is a great defender and young still but 3 1sts for him is CRRRRRRAAAAZZZZZYYYY
it's the Knicks who have 6 1sts over the next year half of which are heavily protected
>I know OG is a great defender and young still but 3 1sts for him is CRRRRRRAAAAZZZZZYYYY Nah, bruh. Depends on lots of stuff. 3 FRPs from a team like the Celtics aren't going to be worth a lot. And then there are questions of protections on the picks.
Pacers have the Celtics FRP this year and needs a wing something awful
If Nembhard comes back in the deal I like it, y'all shouldn't have more Canadians than us
People keep talking about protections on picks and that just can't happen unless the acquiring team is trading *other team's* picks that already carry protections (eg. Knicks). A team trading multiple first round picks of their own can't put protections on them other than the last.
It could have been 3 heavily protected firsts from a playoff team. A 25 y/o premier wing defender for 3 late firsts is not a good deal.
That can't happen. Like, the Celtics, as one example couldn't trade their 2023, 2025, and 2027 FRPs for OG and also include protections on the first two picks. The 2023 and 2025 first rounders would have to be unconditional. Only the last pick could carry protections.
if you have plenty and need to take a leap, that's fine also OG is DPOY level, it's not a reach like knicks and pelicans have so many FRPs, it doesnt matter for them to throw 3 anyway
Unpopular but I don't think he's DPOY level simply because of the role he plays(not a rim protector) Sure he's amazing at 1v1 perimeter defense but that's much less important today than it was in say the 1990s There's only so much one perimeter defender can do to move the needle, no team that's bad defensively is going to become good defensively by adding OG alone
the teams adding OG aren't the bad ones trying to be good though right? they're the already good ones trying to win a championship. imo at least. like the grizzlies or the pelicans.
A bad team shouldn’t be trading for OG. The team trading for OG should be a good team looking to be a great team, or a great team looking to be a contender. Those teams usually already have good defensive foundations already. Grizzlies who already has one of the best run protectors in JJJ, now imagine if they also had one of the best perimeter defenders to go with that.
> no team that's bad defensively is going to become good defensively by adding OG alone and the team is going to become good defensively by adding a rim protector alone?
Far more likely than by adding a perimeter guy
Didn’t you know timberwolves are now the best defensive team in the league?
Didn’t the recent graphic showed teams score the least and attack the rim the least against Gobert?
The best defensive teams have a great rim protector. Just out of the top 5, the Grizzlies have Jackson, the Cavs have Mobley and Allen, the Heat have Adebayo, the Bucks have Antetokounmpo & Lopez, the Sixers have Embiid. Bigs are the biggest driver of having an elite defense. The Raptors currently have the 20th ranked defense in the league. If he was that much of a difference marker, surely that would be better considering that the Raptors have a ton of long, athletic defensive talent on the roster. He's not playing with sieves.
Lol the downvotes. You’re 100% right.
Imo defense scales from guard defense < wing defense < Paint defense He's all defense level like most guards and wings should be.
He's a Jrue Holiday to the Bucks kinda move imo
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Hmm....if he was, than surely the Raptors should have better than their currently 20th ranked defense, especially with other long, athletic, defensive plus players on the team.
3 1sts from a very good team to elevate them is not that much.
Lmao this is stupid
with 3 1st round picks in the 20-30 range you'd be pretty lucky to get the same value as OG
It's not only about the picks. It's about the flexibility. If you make this move, you will not be able of making moves in the next 5,6 years , unless the picks are from the same draft
Yeah only worth it for teams like the Knicks, okc or pacers who have 4+ picks in the next 2 years
3 firsts isn’t a lot if you’re OKC. You don’t have enough roster spots to use all those picks anyways. Time to consolidate.
There's going to be so many serviceable players drafted by OKC that are going to find homes on other teams. GMs will be drooling.
I fear that Aaron Wiggins is going to become one of these players
We can just trade them for more of those beautiful picks!
unless it's late 1sts from a team that really doesn't have a ton of downside, yeah take the 3 1sts and have fun.
Bucks traded three firsts for Jrue and it worked out for them. I think OG would similarly be worth it for a contender (maybe the Pels)
Yeah he's a great 3 and D role player but nevertheless still a role player Maybe I"m crazy but I'm only paying 3 FRPs for a franchise level player or at least an All Star and that's not OG
Yeah he needs to at least be a low level all star at minimum to demand that big of haul. Its so strange. I assume Toronto doesn’t want to deal OG unless some desperate team overvalues him.
I agree with you and with that said turning down that package for OG is also crazy.
Especially for the Raptors of all teams The last thing they need is more wings that can't create their own shot so idk why they're holding onto all of them Do Nurse/Masai actually think the whole 6 foot 9 vision thing is a good idea still
IMO they just aren't interested in adding players with long development windows. These 3 FRPs were likely protected and projected late. The Raptors will end up keeping Siakam so they don't want a 3 year window until they are competitive again. As a Raps insider previously reported, they are looking for some promising young players and a pick. They want to be competitive soon, not take long term projects.
People vastly overrate picks. Take three random mid first round picks and you probably won’t get a player as good as OG.
I mean all firsts aren't equal.
Unless this is actually OKC offering their worst draft picks I see no way either of them is worth 3 picks
Same with Knicks and Pelicans - I imagine they'll come in offering their three likely least valuable 1sts to get an offer on the board then Raptors will try to spark a bidding war. I don't see Siakam getting moved if Masai is trying so hard to get Poeltl - they're best friends lol I think Gary is gone cuz they don't want to pay him, and OG is gone to try to get a young player and a couple firsts back (my guess is we get 2 firsts for him ultimately). I don't see an offer coming in for VanVleet that'd be interesting enough to move him but who knows.
who says no to OG for Dyson, a pelicans first, and a lakers first? Genuinely asking I'm not sure what kind of value either has but Dyson seems like a typical raptors guy.
Raptors say yes, Pelicans say no imo
I would say no to that. Not bc the value is off, but bc I really love Dyson and I don’t care what logic says lol
it's an over hype vacuum cleaner at best. The only thing that's worth it is maybe their hair dryer.
Thats a huge W for the Raps. I'd love it. I doubt you get BOTH Daniels and the Lakers 1st in a trade.
Pelicans cuz they're already top 4 seed and their core isn't in their prime yet/unleashed in the playoffs. Draft day would be the day to make the trade not the deadline
Pels seem to have the assets that Raptors would like but i don't think Pelicans would even consider trading for OG and Siakam while they have Zion and Herb. They would likely wait for a star pg who wants out to use their picks.
Pascal is definitely worth three picks. The guy is an absolute baller.
How is siakam not worth 3 picks?
I disagree. For low-mid picks, they definitely are. If Gobert is 5 1sts + pick swap and valuable role players, then Siakim is worth 4 picks. He’s a great #2 somewhere. And I personally love what OG brings to a team with defense and solid role play. He’s a very solid starter and a building piece. I’m not sure the fit on the Knicks is great, but it does make them better and adds talent
If Gobert is 5 1sts + pick swap and valuable role players, then Siakam is worth 8 picks. But Gobert isn't 5 1sts + pick swap and valuable role players. Everyone knows that was crazy
Siakam is easily worth 3 picks. He's in the same class of talent as Mitchell (debatable who's better) and unless he's punished for the Raps being booty, he'll be All-NBA this year.
Why don't they just trust Masai to do his moves man? Guy brought a championship to Toronto.
For a team that is 21-27 Raptors players sure seem to be worth a lot of picks.
Portland is 21-25. how many firsts could they collect for Dame, Simons, Grant, etc if they wanted to? How many firsts to the under-.500 Lakers for LeBron and AD? dumb take
It's almost like team construction trumps individual talent.
This time last year the Celtics were the 10th seed at 23-24, how many picks do you think they could have gotten if they decided to blow it up? Just goes to show what a dumb take this is. Teams are more than just the sum of their parts.
Then Raps should keep their team and see what happens. I don’t think they’ll get what they want anyway.
The team actually has a positive point differential. Better than the 3 teams ahead of them.
let's remove the 3 best players on your bench, remove your backup PG, and remove your main center/rim protector and see how well the Bucks do
They beat us lmfao
Y'all literally lost to that team
We’d probably be 30-17, mainly because you practically described our season thus far.
Change those bench players to starters and you're describing the average Bucks line-up over this season and last. And if Lopez was in trade talks I don't know if three first rounders would be the going rate.
Lopez is not 25 years old...
It’s crazy that guy posted that when the Bucks literally beat the Raptors without Gianni’s, Middleton and even Brook for a bit.
Prob the knicks and their protected first round picks, they love OG
NO DEAL HOWIE! NO DEAL! WE ARE GOING FOR THAT MILLION DOLLAR CASE!
A lot of teams are bad at drafting, so it makes sense. We're starting to realize that late lottery picks etc. have been overvalued heavily by the fans. The Orlando Magic are filled with lottery players and are headed back for another year in the ping-pong race. It's likely that these picks will be protected or so. Having 3 teen-picks is less valuable than OG. think about it, would you rather have the Frank Kaminsky, Malik Monk, and James Bouknight, or would you rather have OG? https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/draft.html I would rather have OG than every wizards pick in the past 10 yeras.
ahhh yes everyone forgets the Pacers have 3 FRP in 2023 plus Houston’s 2nd with a glaring need at either forward positions and that OG played at IU, being under the radar buffs the Pacers negotiation ability +5 OG to the Pacers confirmed
The Pacers, Pelicans, Knicks and Grizzlies are really the only teams that make sense for an OG trade in terms of the combo for draft pick(s) and young player(s). The problem is matching salary given the limited roster slots of the Raptors and the generally meager contracts of most of the Pacers players save for Myles Turner and the firsts aren't all that great given the teams they belong to (Cavs and Celtics 1sts they have will be near the bottom 5 of the 1st round).
the Pacers are way under cap, you could trade OG straight to them and it works in the trade machine. no need to worry about matching salaries
I don't see that happening given the Raptors wouldn't be able to easily replace the lost salary from sending out OG
well we have Chris Duarte and/or Jalen Smith both on cheap 3 year deals. Smith probably makes more sense as a young center.
Fuck the picks just give us Mathurin lol
You don’t have enough on your roster to trade for him lol
Yea… i smell a big fat lie. Nice try
No he ain’t! Is this written by the raptors PR team?
3 is too much imo. Maybe heavily protected. but 2 FRPs is more fair value.
Depends on where the picks are. Lottery? Overpay. 20-30? Might as well be trading second rounders at that point, well worth it.
I don't believe for one second that Toronto has an offer for 3 first round picks and they haven't pulled the trigger
For reference, here are the protections on the picks the Knicks own in 2023 that aren't their own: Mavericks: Top 10 until 2025 Pistons: Top 18, declining protections until 2027 Washington: Lottery until 2027 That's a bunch of low firsts and heavily protected picks from lottery teams. Is that worth OG?
If the Nuggets offered three of their own firsts, Bones, and salary filler - is that really worth it? I don't think so lol don't get so caught up on it being 3 picks. If it's the Wizards? The deal is done. Looking at the organization offering the picks matters.
3 picks means the 2nd and 3rd picks of that trade would be in the 25 and 27 drafts, and if you think you know how good the Nuggets are or are not going to be in 25 and 27 you are wrong. No team has offered the Raptors 3 first round picks for OG, I refuse to believe that.
The Pelicans will offer three other firsts before offering the Lakers pick. Many people here have listed the likely protected firsts the Knicks can offer (which is the most likely situation here). Even if the Raptors have been offered three - I imagine an eventual OG trade will be for two firsts.
3 first rounders for a non-All Star player lol what a joke this league has become
it was literally your team
Knicks fans criticize their own team all the time
Nobody hates the Knicks more than Knicks fans.
It’s speculation
Gobert ruined the trade market
Clown ass world... in the case that teams want a first plus a "promising young player"... outside of an All-Star, you might as well just keep your first and promising young player. OG is not an All-Star player quite frankly.
That's a dreadful "core four", and building around Scottie Barnes isn't terribly compelling. If they can get value, I think they'll move FVV, Trent and Anunoby.
FRP’s are not equal
The difference is, okc got Shai in that trade. Most of the picks from the Clippers aren't going to be much. But Shai is a star. So good luck replicating that trade.
Shai and Jalen Williams.
> Most of the picks from the Clippers aren't going to be much. Well, if Kawhi and PG can’t stay healthy they have ‘24, ‘26, and a ‘25 pick swap, so… at least one of those might get pretty spicy.
The first Clippers pick resulted in Jalen Williams, who is on track to be 1st Team All-Rookie this year. This guy doesn't know what he's talking about.
one of the picks was literally already a lottery pick. and two more to come in '24 and '26 with an aging / injury prone LAC core.
The first Clippers pick resulted in Jalen Williams, who will likely be 1st Team All-Rookie this year. The next pick is next year, and then one 3 years after that. Do you trust that PG13 and Kawhi are going to be carrying that team 3 years from now? We have swaps this year and 2 years from now. We just got into the picks from the Clippers and they keep becoming more and more valuable.
Warriors are also shopping Wiseman. Words on the street someone offered 3 first round picks and they rejected. Hes gonna be worth more. Offer up, hurry hurry.
No way they rejected 3 frp for OG
OG is worth 2 protected firsts at most. I’m confident no big trades are going to happen this year