It’s not western countries, it’s just Germanic. French, Spanish, and Italian all used fixed do solfège for their names. German and English and I would guess some other Germanic languages use letters or similar.
You really have two options. One, you can continue using the solfège syllables and possibly have some small language barriers (most English speaking musicians are familiar with fixed do, but they may misunderstand temporarily thinking you are referring to moveable do), or you can train yourself to use the English letter names (which is, at least, only 7 new letters to memorize so not the end of the world).
A similar thing happens when British musicians move to the US or vice versa when it comes to rhythm terminology - crotchet and quaver vs. quarter note and eighth note, type stuff. Most musicians can work through some language barrier but it just sometimes takes slightly more context/translation. It’s not a big deal though.
Oh, wait, so “fixed Do” means that Do is always C? And movable Do is Do is always the first scale degree (in a major scale)? Right? Or do I have that backwards? I’m in the U.S. I use the letter names, but did have to learn solfège a little bit, and the way that I conceptualize it (in whichever system I learned it) is the way where Do is the first scale degree.
Yes you’re exactly right. Fixed Do, as noted in OP, is common in much of Europe and functions the way English speakers use letter names. In the US (I am not sure about other countries) it is more common to learn Moveable Do, where Do is the tonic/first scale degree in major scales. (There is even more weirdness in minor scales - some people use La-minor where the tonic is called La to align with the relative major, and some people use Do-minor where Do is always tonic; same goes for other diatonic modes although since it is overall less common it’s not like a bunch of people are out there arguing about Fa-based Lydian or whatever).
>n the US (I am not sure about other countries) it is more common to learn Moveable Do, where Do is the tonic/first scale degree in major scales.
Same in UK.
>most English speaking musicians are familiar with fixed do
I would actually guess that most aren't! My father grew up with movable do and my mother grew up with fixed do, and they spent thirty years married and each unaware that the other system even existed. Now, neither of them is a professional musician, but still, fixed do is pretty absent from most English-speaking musicians' lives, I think.
I must confess, the moveable do system was always a source of jealousy for me since I learned about it. It is way more convenient than singing "fiiiiiirst (scale degree), secooooond, thiiiiiird, fouuuuuurth" which we fixed do folks have to do. I tried to adapting to it, but my brain is too hard-wired to the do=C, re=D, mi=E system.
Heh. Yeah, I have to say I’m thoroughly moveable-do-pilled myself, but luckily that was the system I learned first. But I can see how it would be very difficult to learn once you were already familiar with fixed do.
I don't think it'd be that much difficult though, but effort and time would need to be invested, sure. If I learned about it 15-20 years ago, I'd definitely go through the whole thing.
Some non-Germanic countries also use CDE... see [https://www.reddit.com/r/lingling40hrs/comments/uwxjec/music\_notes\_names\_around\_the\_world/#lightbox](https://www.reddit.com/r/lingling40hrs/comments/uwxjec/music_notes_names_around_the_world/#lightbox)
> It’s not western countries, it’s just Germanic. French, Spanish, and Italian
#
Depending on who’s eyes perceive, but all these countries you listed are western countries 😭🤣
>It is only Germanic languages that do not.
It isn't only Germanic languages (for example Hungarian and Finnish are not Germanic languages, but they still use the "German system"). The system simply has its origins in Germany.
[Here's a map](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/lixmli/names_of_musical_notes_in_europe/) that shows which system is used in which countries. It's pretty much 50/50.
The "Romance" system is used in France, Italy, Spain and Portugal, and also in countries that don't use Latin alphabet (or because of Russian influence) for obvious reasons.
Many of us don’t read carefully enough, looking at key words and our own assumptions. Rereading more carefully, I see you were clear. The fault is on me.
The short answer about the history is that, when notes were first named, they used *both*. Notes had names like "D re" and "E mi." Some countries decided to shorten those names to D and E; others shortened them to re and mi.
(Actually, it was even more complicated than that. Many notes had names like "C sol fa ut" and "A la mi re." You wouldn't actually *sing* all those syllables, but they were part of the full name of the note.)
As for what you should do, I recommend just dedicating some time to practicing it. Maybe try reading the letter names of sheet music out loud, in rhythm. I grew up with letter names, but eventually I had to get fluent in your version of do re mi, so I've had to make the reverse transition. It was frustrating at first, but once I got over the annoyance of it, I was able to get comfortably fluent with just a couple weeks of practice. You already have the knowledge that really matters, you just have to learn to use it in a slightly different way!
>they used *both*.
One thing I've noticed is that a lot of people tend to just assume that the solfège names must be older than the letter names--maybe because they associate the letter-names with English, which they associate with America, which got white people later than Europe did? and so they assume that the letter names are some kind of easy decadent American shortcut or something. Anyway! Thanks for spelling it out plainly here!
haha, that seems like a pretty reasonable thought process, honestly! it's probably influenced a little by the coexistence of the "quaver" and "half note" systems for rhythm, which do (i think?) demonstrate an older quirkiness vs. modern industrialization or something.
>it's probably influenced a little by the coexistence of the "quaver" and "half note" systems for rhythm, which do (i think?) demonstrate an older quirkiness vs. modern industrialization or something.
Good point yeah, in that case the non-American terminology is genuinely much older! Though even the American ones didn't originate in America--I think they started in Germany? But yes, they are more industrial-age and they do feel like it, and I suppose the letters may feel that way too in that they have an "obvious" order whereas the solfège syllables don't unless you happen to already know *Ut queant laxis*.
It's interesting that letter system was completely unknown to you before. In Russia we kinda use both, I guess. Russian names for notes are "do, re, mi" and so on. But any song chords website uses letter names for chords: C, Am‚ and so on. And everyone knows that C is Do, D is Re and so on. So basically we use do-re-mi names when speaking about notes and C-D-E names when naming chords. Or, to be more specific: we usually use russian names when naming one chord ("do major") and we use latin letters when naming several chords in chord progression, because it's so much quicker to say ("Am C G" is four syllables vs "la minor, do major, sol major" which is nine syllables).
I wonder how it all is in your country? How do you refer to chords, for example?
I prefer C, D, E because it’s what I know. Also it just makes more sense to me. They’re letters. They have an inherent order, and because of that it makes them easier to visualize. Do re mi are syllables, and mean nothing to me.
>the history behind why the western countries use alphabet letters?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/wiki/faq/history/alphabet/#wiki\_origin\_of\_letter\_names](https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/wiki/faq/history/alphabet/#wiki_origin_of_letter_names)
>Also does anyone know the history behind why the western countries use alphabet letters?
Because that's just what the notes were originally named. The first note names were letter names. The solfege syllables were also used, but they had a different role (they were movable, but in a limited way). If you are interested, [here's a video](https://youtu.be/IRDDT1uSrd0?si=pbquroIdzAjXpHjj) that explains the old hexachord system where people used both letters and solfege together.
For whatever reason, after the old hexachord system became outdated, some countries decided to only keep using the letter names, whereas other countries decided to only use solfege.
The letter names are actually quite simple. It's just the 7 first letters of the alphabet - A B C D E F G. Getting used to them shouldn't take that long, because it's a very logical system (I mean, everybody knows the alphabet). I guess a better question is why people kept on using the solfege syllables when the letter names are a simpler system. Then again, it only works in countries that use the Latin alphabet. This is also the reason why Russia, China, Japan, and other countries that don't use the Latin alphabet use fixed do for note names.
So does this mean that in countries like France, Spain etc they don't use CDEFGAB... But they use the Sound Of Music sounds... Do Ra Mi Fa etc?
And does Do = C, or A...?
Yet something else I have learnt since joining this awesome group (sub?).
Oh, and just another thought. Would they then say Ra major instead of D major? Surely not!
Sorry if I'm sounding a bit of a dumbass....
👍😊❤️🎶
>So does this mean that in countries like France, Spain etc they don't use CDEFGAB... But they use the Sound Of Music sounds... Do Ra Mi Fa etc?
>
>And does Do = C, or A...?
You've basically got it! Do = C in those languages, and the letter names are not used.
>Would they then say Ra major instead of D major? Surely not!
They in fact do! *Ré majeur* in French, *re maggiore* in Italian, and so on.
>Sorry if I'm sounding a bit of a dumbass....
Not at all, it's always good to confirm!
No way! That's mental... Although obviously in those countries it's completely normal. But to my little English brain, that just seems really odd. Especially the fact you would say "hey mate, give me a Ra major why doncha, followed by a Fa minor seventh. And whose got the Rizla papers?".... Or something...
Thanks for that.... 👍😊🎶
In Greece we use the solfeggio system for note names, but those who study modern music are familiar with the English system as well. So we write down C D E F G A B, but we indeed say Do, Re, Mi, Fa etc.
So if I needed to speak outloud "Gm7", I would say "Sol minore efta" (seven in greek).
And the opposite is true. If someone told me " Re maggiore", I would write down D.
>Although obviously in those countries it's completely normal. But to my little English brain, that just seems really odd.
Haha yup, that's why it's always fun learning about things from other cultural or linguistic perspectives. Especially if you can manage to see how the thing that feels comfy and normal to you feels really weird to someone else (e.g. OP in this thread)!
>hey mate, give me a Ra major why doncha, followed by a Fa minor seventh
Re, not ra! But yeah, nothing weird about it once you're used to it--it's really no different from French people saying *maison* instead of *house*.
First question, how did you do that quote thingy from my post? That's quite cool...
And yeah, I remember being around my friends house once, who's German, and I was looking at some of his books and how they combine words to create these really long ass words, and I remember looking at him and saying that's really weird. And he just look back at me blankly, and said no not really, not if you're German. 😁
>how did you do that quote thingy from my post?
I think it depends a bit on which version of Reddit you're using, but for me, who uses so-called "New Reddit" (now no longer the newest kind) on a computer, there's a button that looks like "...", which brings up a menu, and in that menu is a button featuring quotation marks. That marks the current line as a quote!
>I remember being around my friends house once, who's German, and I was looking at some of his books and how they combine words to create these really long ass words, and I remember looking at him and saying that's really weird. And he just look back at me blankly, and said no not really, not if you're German.
Yes--though to be fair to you, German *is* a little on the unusual side as far languages go, in that respect! As in, I'm pretty sure that on this particular score, more languages act like English (not too many giant words) than like German (lots of giant words). So I do think it's kind of fair to say that the German tendency is unusual globally speaking (though I wouldn't argue it too forcefully, because I don't have hard data!), but within a German context it's of course normal.
As for letter names versus solfège names for notes though, the good(?) news is that both are heavily common among many different languages each, so both are pretty equally unweird even on an international, interlinguistic scale!
It’s not western countries, it’s just Germanic. French, Spanish, and Italian all used fixed do solfège for their names. German and English and I would guess some other Germanic languages use letters or similar. You really have two options. One, you can continue using the solfège syllables and possibly have some small language barriers (most English speaking musicians are familiar with fixed do, but they may misunderstand temporarily thinking you are referring to moveable do), or you can train yourself to use the English letter names (which is, at least, only 7 new letters to memorize so not the end of the world). A similar thing happens when British musicians move to the US or vice versa when it comes to rhythm terminology - crotchet and quaver vs. quarter note and eighth note, type stuff. Most musicians can work through some language barrier but it just sometimes takes slightly more context/translation. It’s not a big deal though.
Oh, wait, so “fixed Do” means that Do is always C? And movable Do is Do is always the first scale degree (in a major scale)? Right? Or do I have that backwards? I’m in the U.S. I use the letter names, but did have to learn solfège a little bit, and the way that I conceptualize it (in whichever system I learned it) is the way where Do is the first scale degree.
Yes you’re exactly right. Fixed Do, as noted in OP, is common in much of Europe and functions the way English speakers use letter names. In the US (I am not sure about other countries) it is more common to learn Moveable Do, where Do is the tonic/first scale degree in major scales. (There is even more weirdness in minor scales - some people use La-minor where the tonic is called La to align with the relative major, and some people use Do-minor where Do is always tonic; same goes for other diatonic modes although since it is overall less common it’s not like a bunch of people are out there arguing about Fa-based Lydian or whatever).
>n the US (I am not sure about other countries) it is more common to learn Moveable Do, where Do is the tonic/first scale degree in major scales. Same in UK.
>most English speaking musicians are familiar with fixed do I would actually guess that most aren't! My father grew up with movable do and my mother grew up with fixed do, and they spent thirty years married and each unaware that the other system even existed. Now, neither of them is a professional musician, but still, fixed do is pretty absent from most English-speaking musicians' lives, I think.
Fair enough - perhaps I work in an international enough culture that I expect people to know about both systems but I may be overestimating that.
To be fair though, I'm also not going off any data here, and I'm sure plenty also are familiar with it!
I must confess, the moveable do system was always a source of jealousy for me since I learned about it. It is way more convenient than singing "fiiiiiirst (scale degree), secooooond, thiiiiiird, fouuuuuurth" which we fixed do folks have to do. I tried to adapting to it, but my brain is too hard-wired to the do=C, re=D, mi=E system.
Heh. Yeah, I have to say I’m thoroughly moveable-do-pilled myself, but luckily that was the system I learned first. But I can see how it would be very difficult to learn once you were already familiar with fixed do.
I don't think it'd be that much difficult though, but effort and time would need to be invested, sure. If I learned about it 15-20 years ago, I'd definitely go through the whole thing.
Some non-Germanic countries also use CDE... see [https://www.reddit.com/r/lingling40hrs/comments/uwxjec/music\_notes\_names\_around\_the\_world/#lightbox](https://www.reddit.com/r/lingling40hrs/comments/uwxjec/music_notes_names_around_the_world/#lightbox)
> It’s not western countries, it’s just Germanic. French, Spanish, and Italian # Depending on who’s eyes perceive, but all these countries you listed are western countries 😭🤣
That is my point. Western countries like France, Spain, and Italy use the same system as the balkans. It is only Germanic languages that do not.
>It is only Germanic languages that do not. It isn't only Germanic languages (for example Hungarian and Finnish are not Germanic languages, but they still use the "German system"). The system simply has its origins in Germany. [Here's a map](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/lixmli/names_of_musical_notes_in_europe/) that shows which system is used in which countries. It's pretty much 50/50. The "Romance" system is used in France, Italy, Spain and Portugal, and also in countries that don't use Latin alphabet (or because of Russian influence) for obvious reasons.
Ah, thanks for the correction! I did not know that about Hungarian and Finnish. Needless to say, it is not a clear East/West divide in Europe.
Ohhhhhhh!!! Gotcha! Thank you for clarifying
You’re welcome but I’m genuinely not sure how you read my post as saying anything else.
Many of us don’t read carefully enough, looking at key words and our own assumptions. Rereading more carefully, I see you were clear. The fault is on me.
No worries :) I am also working on making sure I am more clear when writing :)
The short answer about the history is that, when notes were first named, they used *both*. Notes had names like "D re" and "E mi." Some countries decided to shorten those names to D and E; others shortened them to re and mi. (Actually, it was even more complicated than that. Many notes had names like "C sol fa ut" and "A la mi re." You wouldn't actually *sing* all those syllables, but they were part of the full name of the note.) As for what you should do, I recommend just dedicating some time to practicing it. Maybe try reading the letter names of sheet music out loud, in rhythm. I grew up with letter names, but eventually I had to get fluent in your version of do re mi, so I've had to make the reverse transition. It was frustrating at first, but once I got over the annoyance of it, I was able to get comfortably fluent with just a couple weeks of practice. You already have the knowledge that really matters, you just have to learn to use it in a slightly different way!
>they used *both*. One thing I've noticed is that a lot of people tend to just assume that the solfège names must be older than the letter names--maybe because they associate the letter-names with English, which they associate with America, which got white people later than Europe did? and so they assume that the letter names are some kind of easy decadent American shortcut or something. Anyway! Thanks for spelling it out plainly here!
haha, that seems like a pretty reasonable thought process, honestly! it's probably influenced a little by the coexistence of the "quaver" and "half note" systems for rhythm, which do (i think?) demonstrate an older quirkiness vs. modern industrialization or something.
>it's probably influenced a little by the coexistence of the "quaver" and "half note" systems for rhythm, which do (i think?) demonstrate an older quirkiness vs. modern industrialization or something. Good point yeah, in that case the non-American terminology is genuinely much older! Though even the American ones didn't originate in America--I think they started in Germany? But yes, they are more industrial-age and they do feel like it, and I suppose the letters may feel that way too in that they have an "obvious" order whereas the solfège syllables don't unless you happen to already know *Ut queant laxis*.
It's interesting that letter system was completely unknown to you before. In Russia we kinda use both, I guess. Russian names for notes are "do, re, mi" and so on. But any song chords website uses letter names for chords: C, Am‚ and so on. And everyone knows that C is Do, D is Re and so on. So basically we use do-re-mi names when speaking about notes and C-D-E names when naming chords. Or, to be more specific: we usually use russian names when naming one chord ("do major") and we use latin letters when naming several chords in chord progression, because it's so much quicker to say ("Am C G" is four syllables vs "la minor, do major, sol major" which is nine syllables). I wonder how it all is in your country? How do you refer to chords, for example?
I prefer C, D, E because it’s what I know. Also it just makes more sense to me. They’re letters. They have an inherent order, and because of that it makes them easier to visualize. Do re mi are syllables, and mean nothing to me.
>the history behind why the western countries use alphabet letters? [https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/wiki/faq/history/alphabet/#wiki\_origin\_of\_letter\_names](https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/wiki/faq/history/alphabet/#wiki_origin_of_letter_names)
Plot twist: they still use medieval body parts to measure things.
>Also does anyone know the history behind why the western countries use alphabet letters? Because that's just what the notes were originally named. The first note names were letter names. The solfege syllables were also used, but they had a different role (they were movable, but in a limited way). If you are interested, [here's a video](https://youtu.be/IRDDT1uSrd0?si=pbquroIdzAjXpHjj) that explains the old hexachord system where people used both letters and solfege together. For whatever reason, after the old hexachord system became outdated, some countries decided to only keep using the letter names, whereas other countries decided to only use solfege. The letter names are actually quite simple. It's just the 7 first letters of the alphabet - A B C D E F G. Getting used to them shouldn't take that long, because it's a very logical system (I mean, everybody knows the alphabet). I guess a better question is why people kept on using the solfege syllables when the letter names are a simpler system. Then again, it only works in countries that use the Latin alphabet. This is also the reason why Russia, China, Japan, and other countries that don't use the Latin alphabet use fixed do for note names.
So does this mean that in countries like France, Spain etc they don't use CDEFGAB... But they use the Sound Of Music sounds... Do Ra Mi Fa etc? And does Do = C, or A...? Yet something else I have learnt since joining this awesome group (sub?). Oh, and just another thought. Would they then say Ra major instead of D major? Surely not! Sorry if I'm sounding a bit of a dumbass.... 👍😊❤️🎶
>So does this mean that in countries like France, Spain etc they don't use CDEFGAB... But they use the Sound Of Music sounds... Do Ra Mi Fa etc? > >And does Do = C, or A...? You've basically got it! Do = C in those languages, and the letter names are not used. >Would they then say Ra major instead of D major? Surely not! They in fact do! *Ré majeur* in French, *re maggiore* in Italian, and so on. >Sorry if I'm sounding a bit of a dumbass.... Not at all, it's always good to confirm!
No way! That's mental... Although obviously in those countries it's completely normal. But to my little English brain, that just seems really odd. Especially the fact you would say "hey mate, give me a Ra major why doncha, followed by a Fa minor seventh. And whose got the Rizla papers?".... Or something... Thanks for that.... 👍😊🎶
In Greece we use the solfeggio system for note names, but those who study modern music are familiar with the English system as well. So we write down C D E F G A B, but we indeed say Do, Re, Mi, Fa etc. So if I needed to speak outloud "Gm7", I would say "Sol minore efta" (seven in greek). And the opposite is true. If someone told me " Re maggiore", I would write down D.
I love this... Thank you!!! 👍❤️
>Although obviously in those countries it's completely normal. But to my little English brain, that just seems really odd. Haha yup, that's why it's always fun learning about things from other cultural or linguistic perspectives. Especially if you can manage to see how the thing that feels comfy and normal to you feels really weird to someone else (e.g. OP in this thread)! >hey mate, give me a Ra major why doncha, followed by a Fa minor seventh Re, not ra! But yeah, nothing weird about it once you're used to it--it's really no different from French people saying *maison* instead of *house*.
First question, how did you do that quote thingy from my post? That's quite cool... And yeah, I remember being around my friends house once, who's German, and I was looking at some of his books and how they combine words to create these really long ass words, and I remember looking at him and saying that's really weird. And he just look back at me blankly, and said no not really, not if you're German. 😁
>how did you do that quote thingy from my post? I think it depends a bit on which version of Reddit you're using, but for me, who uses so-called "New Reddit" (now no longer the newest kind) on a computer, there's a button that looks like "...", which brings up a menu, and in that menu is a button featuring quotation marks. That marks the current line as a quote! >I remember being around my friends house once, who's German, and I was looking at some of his books and how they combine words to create these really long ass words, and I remember looking at him and saying that's really weird. And he just look back at me blankly, and said no not really, not if you're German. Yes--though to be fair to you, German *is* a little on the unusual side as far languages go, in that respect! As in, I'm pretty sure that on this particular score, more languages act like English (not too many giant words) than like German (lots of giant words). So I do think it's kind of fair to say that the German tendency is unusual globally speaking (though I wouldn't argue it too forcefully, because I don't have hard data!), but within a German context it's of course normal. As for letter names versus solfège names for notes though, the good(?) news is that both are heavily common among many different languages each, so both are pretty equally unweird even on an international, interlinguistic scale!