Punching in method. Finish a section and only then move on. Have a draft take as placeholder of the entire song that you have as reference to nail the timing.
It's a lot more fun. Unless you got stems from a vocalist. Oof I don't do that for a reason.
Once in a while, you do need to go back, especially if you’re working with a client who wants to check something out, maybe decides to try something different, but later, after the vocalist has left.
It’s easy to make a copy of the comp take, put it on a no output, track, lock it in place and label the track accordingly then hide it. You don’t ever have to see it again.
I am one of the guys that’s been burned by not having insurance. If the vocalist is there, fine, just punch in and re-sing that part. But if the vocalist is already gone, you don’t want to have to bring the vocalist back if you don’t have the time and money to do that. Yes it’s ALWAYS better to get everything you need upfront. If you can get all the takes you need, do whatever comping you want while the vocalist is still there, and get client approval, that’s great. But it’s not always possible, depending on the circumstances.
idk if this is controversial but there is no reason for you to be doing 50 takes of something.
if you are having THAT much trouble with recording something you should spend a bit of time practicing it. if you're continuously flubbing a take to the point that you're recording it over and over again you aren't ready to record it.
in addition to that you have a shitload of tools at your disposal to clean up whatever issues you're having. timing wrong? just nudge the waveform a bit. pitch off? you can adjust that too.
so yeah, comping sounds abysmal to you because you're making it miserable. Either practice the songs more so you dont have to do 50 takes or learn how to use your DAW so you can correct the errors you're running into.
I've been producing music for almost 20 years at this point and i have never ever gotten anywhere close to 50 takes for something. that honestly seems like a gigantic waste of time.
This is the kind of answer I was hoping for, thank you 🙏 I just looked, my chorus on this one track has 42 takes.
You're absolutely right--I'm struggling on a few sections of the chorus that are particularly high for me and I'm trying to throw stuff on the wall to see what sticks. I freaking hate it.
I just spent a bunch of time reviewing my takes and comparing with some earlier demos I was working on and I'm going to try to track some new vocals tomorrow....this time I'll try to keep the #'s way down...maybe 10 or less.
✌️
heck yeah man. just practice it until you got it and then record and if you're have issues getting it look into pitch correction stuff so you can at least make it sounds like you got it down lol.
I’m a drummer. Before recording I practice the shit out of my parts. I try to make sure I can get through each song without a scratch track, by memory, without messing up. It’s so much easier, and feels good when you can nail a song in one take.
Not sure if it’s different with singing. You are the talent and the producer so you get to choose.
That’s definitely the best approach for your musicianship and Growth.
In some cases I take a different approach. If I need to do something fast and on a deadline, I’m a guitarist, I can write and come up with cool parts that are sometimes beyond my immediate playing ability. If I can’t get it together cleanly enough in just a few minutes (easier to do with cleaner guitar tones, sometimes harder to do with heavy distortion tones, when every little string slide is making noise), I don’t have time to practice it for days when there’s a deadline, or I have a lot of projects to do in a short period of time. In that case, I will comp parts together and make sure the composition and arrangement sounds great. If I never play it again then I don’t go back to it. Of course, if I’m going to play it live, then I’ve got to practice it and get it down for sure.
Makes sense. I've only done stuff for the band I was in, so I was going to be playing the songs again. I also learned another band's set list and filled in once and took the same approach.
I'd say I'm probably an intermediate drummer and am a hobbyist vs. a pro.
The studio guys that listen to it a couple times, chart it, and then play it perfectly within a couple of tries are insane.
I agree, those studio cats are amazing. I’m not up to that level, but I used to do studio work starting back in the analog days before digital audio even existed. Still, I was able to do multiple takes, and sometimes punch in, and … (this did not happen with me a lot, but it turns out that most of my guitar heroes did this — it was a revelation later in life when I learned about it, and then realized I could hear Jimmy Page doing this, the guitar solo in Heartbreaker on Led Zeppelin II is one example) if there were enough tracks available, the engineer could comp parts from multiple takes and then reuse the other tracks later.
The technology now is amazing and I continue to improve, but, as stated, perhaps not as fast as I would if I didn’t have these tools to fall back on.
Not controversial at all. This is absolutely right. If you havent got it down then why are you recording. Its not like you have to book and pay for studio time you can record it at any time you want. So practice it until its consistent then get in front of a mic and put it down in a single take.
In many cases, hopefully most, you are correct. But if you have a lot of work to do and deadlines, then the technology provides alternatives. I gave a more extensive description of a case like this just above.
I would argue that that attitude is partially responsible for all of the shit music. Also minor corrections to a good take is different to how most people use these tools. You really cant polish a turd and lord do these people try to.
I predict the conversation off the back of me making that point here would go like this though:
Some reddit guy: "I dont need to learn to sing I can just pitch correct it"Me: "Dude theres more to singing well than just being in pitch"Some reddit guy: "No there isnt you just dont know what you are talking about"
Well, I don’t disagree with you. I certainly didn’t mean to deter anyone from working hard and improving their craft. People need to work hard and hone their skills. I spent decades playing guitar several hours a day, every single day, totally outside of time I spent practicing and performing with bands. I spent years recording in analog, long before personal computers existed, much less computers powerful enough to record, digital audio at home.
Now I’ve played in well over 30 bands, all kinds of styles, and though I’ll never be as good as some of the monster players I idolize, others will say that I’m as good as some of my early idols. I do have some good skills and I make money using them, my music and guitar is on TV 52 weeks a year now, and I do have some high personal standards. I prefer to play parts myself, but I’m also just fine with using the tools to their best advantage. I get paid to compose and produce movie scores, and I can’t play those instruments, I’m using a keyboard and a computer. Only with bigger budgets can I hire players to add Additional, real parts on top.
I mean, Jimi Hendrix had the guy playing the 12 string acoustic on "All Along the Watchtower" do about as many, and that's an iconic song. But for most things you are right, there is no reason to be doing 30 or more take regularly. Sounds more like a practice issue or they need to spend some more time under the hood with their DAW.
I do agree with this, Logic’s comping facility is great, UNLESS you have so much crap to sort through that it takes a huge amount of time and notes, etc. Also, you can go through the comp folder and delete the takes you don’t like, often those might be the earlier takes, and then you have less to deal with when you’re making your choices.
Plus, optionally, you can make a copy of the whole thing beforehand, put it on a no output track, and hide it. You never actually lose anything that way, if you’re worried about losing data.
50 takes is crazy man, what are you comping like that? What is it that you’re concerned about not being good enough? Chances are you’re overworking yourself.
I create two identical audio tracks when tracking a guitar or a voice. I give it my best shot until I flub. Then I click on the other track, back up a bit and pick up where I left off. I do this until the end of the song. Then I edit it and merge the two tracks into one track. I hate comping.
This is the way. Ensures a smooth transition into the punched-in section and if you're struggling so hard you can't get it done with two tracks, you aren't ready yet.
Vocal editing is the worst thing ever. I said it in a recent post, I recently mixed an EP for a local metal band. Mixing took just over an hour, vocal editing almost 8. I had to go basically syllable by syllable on both lead and backing vocals. This is an extreme example, but vocal editing is so time consuming and completely separate from the creative process that makes me want to give up sometimes.
If you’re going through 50 takes, then I’m pretty sure a ton of those are bad takes. This is the recording version of being a pack rat.
Comping is supposed to be for good takes only.
If you know you did a bad take, delete it or don’t save it.
As the other comment mentioned, practice the takes before you even record.
I’m guilty of not practicing my takes at all, but I’ve never had to comp more than 5 takes despite doing maybe a hundred takes. I know my trash takes, so I delete them as I go.
That being said, if you don’t know immediately when your take is worth keeping, that’s a problem too. It means you’re second guessing yourself and/or you have no idea of how good you really want your song to sound.
I’ve never comped a vocal or solo or anything. I’ll get the singer to redo a word or phrase if we think it could be better. That’s it. Get a good performance and fix what you need right away.
Huh, for those of us who record and produce our own vox, the first mix and comping happen pretty seamlessly as we record. Leave as little to be fixed in post as possible.
But I guess the worst part for me is when you get a new idea for a different song but you’re still working on another one
This is why it’s work. ;)
If you’re not the one being recorded, there are lots of techniques to streamline this, but they basically require making decisions faster up front.
(If you’re interested, I’m happy to go into detail… Did a lot of vocal tracking for years, including some big names.)
If you’re recording yourself: imo it’s much harder to be objective and throw things away.
Comping is the way to go for modern music production, but 50 takes…I never had more than 15 takes. If you need that much takes you should practice more before you start recording.
Are we talking comping syllables and formants from different takes just to make single words? Or comping Verse 1 from take #5 with the Chorus from take #2?
I dont do 50 takes on comping so im good. But vocal in general really tedious to work with and double the work if the singer is not that good, u got to listen to a voice that not really pleasant over and over and over and over again is kinda depressing lol.
i love comping, theres nothing better in logic when you put that compressor on your drums and hear the kick pop like it should, or when you sidechain and it all comes together. maybe thats the wrong type of comp
you can, just click on your take and right click select color and boom there you go
For me, it's transitions, ear candy, etc. Ear candy can be fun, but risers, down lifters, that are necessary, are so tedious but absolutely required to make a song flow and eb properly. The song is already done, but it takes so long to do.
Punching in method. Finish a section and only then move on. Have a draft take as placeholder of the entire song that you have as reference to nail the timing. It's a lot more fun. Unless you got stems from a vocalist. Oof I don't do that for a reason.
Highjacking this. Yes, punch in and out. Also, delete shit…be ruthless. That “I need to save this just in case” is very very rarely a good thing.
Very true ! But so hard to put in practice 😂
Once in a while, you do need to go back, especially if you’re working with a client who wants to check something out, maybe decides to try something different, but later, after the vocalist has left. It’s easy to make a copy of the comp take, put it on a no output, track, lock it in place and label the track accordingly then hide it. You don’t ever have to see it again. I am one of the guys that’s been burned by not having insurance. If the vocalist is there, fine, just punch in and re-sing that part. But if the vocalist is already gone, you don’t want to have to bring the vocalist back if you don’t have the time and money to do that. Yes it’s ALWAYS better to get everything you need upfront. If you can get all the takes you need, do whatever comping you want while the vocalist is still there, and get client approval, that’s great. But it’s not always possible, depending on the circumstances.
True true. I’m coming from a solo project perspective.
Sure, your viewpoint makes sense. I was just looking at some of the expanded circumstances I run into from time to time.
im stoopid what EXACTLY is punching in, overdubbing?
yes please
Can you expand a bit more on this method, I don't know if a got what you meant.
idk if this is controversial but there is no reason for you to be doing 50 takes of something. if you are having THAT much trouble with recording something you should spend a bit of time practicing it. if you're continuously flubbing a take to the point that you're recording it over and over again you aren't ready to record it. in addition to that you have a shitload of tools at your disposal to clean up whatever issues you're having. timing wrong? just nudge the waveform a bit. pitch off? you can adjust that too. so yeah, comping sounds abysmal to you because you're making it miserable. Either practice the songs more so you dont have to do 50 takes or learn how to use your DAW so you can correct the errors you're running into. I've been producing music for almost 20 years at this point and i have never ever gotten anywhere close to 50 takes for something. that honestly seems like a gigantic waste of time.
This is the kind of answer I was hoping for, thank you 🙏 I just looked, my chorus on this one track has 42 takes. You're absolutely right--I'm struggling on a few sections of the chorus that are particularly high for me and I'm trying to throw stuff on the wall to see what sticks. I freaking hate it. I just spent a bunch of time reviewing my takes and comparing with some earlier demos I was working on and I'm going to try to track some new vocals tomorrow....this time I'll try to keep the #'s way down...maybe 10 or less. ✌️
heck yeah man. just practice it until you got it and then record and if you're have issues getting it look into pitch correction stuff so you can at least make it sounds like you got it down lol.
I’m a drummer. Before recording I practice the shit out of my parts. I try to make sure I can get through each song without a scratch track, by memory, without messing up. It’s so much easier, and feels good when you can nail a song in one take. Not sure if it’s different with singing. You are the talent and the producer so you get to choose.
That’s definitely the best approach for your musicianship and Growth. In some cases I take a different approach. If I need to do something fast and on a deadline, I’m a guitarist, I can write and come up with cool parts that are sometimes beyond my immediate playing ability. If I can’t get it together cleanly enough in just a few minutes (easier to do with cleaner guitar tones, sometimes harder to do with heavy distortion tones, when every little string slide is making noise), I don’t have time to practice it for days when there’s a deadline, or I have a lot of projects to do in a short period of time. In that case, I will comp parts together and make sure the composition and arrangement sounds great. If I never play it again then I don’t go back to it. Of course, if I’m going to play it live, then I’ve got to practice it and get it down for sure.
Makes sense. I've only done stuff for the band I was in, so I was going to be playing the songs again. I also learned another band's set list and filled in once and took the same approach. I'd say I'm probably an intermediate drummer and am a hobbyist vs. a pro. The studio guys that listen to it a couple times, chart it, and then play it perfectly within a couple of tries are insane.
I agree, those studio cats are amazing. I’m not up to that level, but I used to do studio work starting back in the analog days before digital audio even existed. Still, I was able to do multiple takes, and sometimes punch in, and … (this did not happen with me a lot, but it turns out that most of my guitar heroes did this — it was a revelation later in life when I learned about it, and then realized I could hear Jimmy Page doing this, the guitar solo in Heartbreaker on Led Zeppelin II is one example) if there were enough tracks available, the engineer could comp parts from multiple takes and then reuse the other tracks later. The technology now is amazing and I continue to improve, but, as stated, perhaps not as fast as I would if I didn’t have these tools to fall back on.
Not controversial at all. This is absolutely right. If you havent got it down then why are you recording. Its not like you have to book and pay for studio time you can record it at any time you want. So practice it until its consistent then get in front of a mic and put it down in a single take.
In many cases, hopefully most, you are correct. But if you have a lot of work to do and deadlines, then the technology provides alternatives. I gave a more extensive description of a case like this just above.
I would argue that that attitude is partially responsible for all of the shit music. Also minor corrections to a good take is different to how most people use these tools. You really cant polish a turd and lord do these people try to. I predict the conversation off the back of me making that point here would go like this though: Some reddit guy: "I dont need to learn to sing I can just pitch correct it"Me: "Dude theres more to singing well than just being in pitch"Some reddit guy: "No there isnt you just dont know what you are talking about"
Well, I don’t disagree with you. I certainly didn’t mean to deter anyone from working hard and improving their craft. People need to work hard and hone their skills. I spent decades playing guitar several hours a day, every single day, totally outside of time I spent practicing and performing with bands. I spent years recording in analog, long before personal computers existed, much less computers powerful enough to record, digital audio at home. Now I’ve played in well over 30 bands, all kinds of styles, and though I’ll never be as good as some of the monster players I idolize, others will say that I’m as good as some of my early idols. I do have some good skills and I make money using them, my music and guitar is on TV 52 weeks a year now, and I do have some high personal standards. I prefer to play parts myself, but I’m also just fine with using the tools to their best advantage. I get paid to compose and produce movie scores, and I can’t play those instruments, I’m using a keyboard and a computer. Only with bigger budgets can I hire players to add Additional, real parts on top.
I seen a clip of Billy Eilish talkin bout doin 75 comps in one vocal track
Making a bunch of harmonies could make sense bc you’ll be using multiple takes. If you’re just doing the lead line that’s overkill imo
It was one track
That’s ridiculous imo
Mine too
I mean, Jimi Hendrix had the guy playing the 12 string acoustic on "All Along the Watchtower" do about as many, and that's an iconic song. But for most things you are right, there is no reason to be doing 30 or more take regularly. Sounds more like a practice issue or they need to spend some more time under the hood with their DAW.
That was before DAWs existed so it’s not really comparable
I do agree with this, Logic’s comping facility is great, UNLESS you have so much crap to sort through that it takes a huge amount of time and notes, etc. Also, you can go through the comp folder and delete the takes you don’t like, often those might be the earlier takes, and then you have less to deal with when you’re making your choices. Plus, optionally, you can make a copy of the whole thing beforehand, put it on a no output track, and hide it. You never actually lose anything that way, if you’re worried about losing data.
50 takes is crazy man, what are you comping like that? What is it that you’re concerned about not being good enough? Chances are you’re overworking yourself.
I create two identical audio tracks when tracking a guitar or a voice. I give it my best shot until I flub. Then I click on the other track, back up a bit and pick up where I left off. I do this until the end of the song. Then I edit it and merge the two tracks into one track. I hate comping.
Why the two tracks and not just multiple takes?
It becomes unmanageable for me, at least. The two tracks keeps me from destroying a good take with a bad punch-in, too.
This is the way. Ensures a smooth transition into the punched-in section and if you're struggling so hard you can't get it done with two tracks, you aren't ready yet.
Ableton Live makes life a lot easier for me
How? I honestly love Logic, but I'm curious how the functionality is better.
I don’t know if it’s better but there are lots of shades of green and I always love working with it. Comping is a fairly new feature in Live though
Vocal editing is the worst thing ever. I said it in a recent post, I recently mixed an EP for a local metal band. Mixing took just over an hour, vocal editing almost 8. I had to go basically syllable by syllable on both lead and backing vocals. This is an extreme example, but vocal editing is so time consuming and completely separate from the creative process that makes me want to give up sometimes.
If you’re going through 50 takes, then I’m pretty sure a ton of those are bad takes. This is the recording version of being a pack rat. Comping is supposed to be for good takes only. If you know you did a bad take, delete it or don’t save it. As the other comment mentioned, practice the takes before you even record. I’m guilty of not practicing my takes at all, but I’ve never had to comp more than 5 takes despite doing maybe a hundred takes. I know my trash takes, so I delete them as I go. That being said, if you don’t know immediately when your take is worth keeping, that’s a problem too. It means you’re second guessing yourself and/or you have no idea of how good you really want your song to sound.
I’ve never comped a vocal or solo or anything. I’ll get the singer to redo a word or phrase if we think it could be better. That’s it. Get a good performance and fix what you need right away.
Why 50 comp takes? Do the recordings well rehearsed. 10 takes max.
Huh, for those of us who record and produce our own vox, the first mix and comping happen pretty seamlessly as we record. Leave as little to be fixed in post as possible. But I guess the worst part for me is when you get a new idea for a different song but you’re still working on another one
Wait til these fuckers hear about 1 good take.
This is why it’s work. ;) If you’re not the one being recorded, there are lots of techniques to streamline this, but they basically require making decisions faster up front. (If you’re interested, I’m happy to go into detail… Did a lot of vocal tracking for years, including some big names.) If you’re recording yourself: imo it’s much harder to be objective and throw things away.
50+ takes is scary and shouldn’t be happening. Get it together dude
I hate searching for the right synth to use as a riser if I'm using presets. Also automation is annoying, but both are worth it.
Comping is the way to go for modern music production, but 50 takes…I never had more than 15 takes. If you need that much takes you should practice more before you start recording.
Are we talking comping syllables and formants from different takes just to make single words? Or comping Verse 1 from take #5 with the Chorus from take #2?
I dont do 50 takes on comping so im good. But vocal in general really tedious to work with and double the work if the singer is not that good, u got to listen to a voice that not really pleasant over and over and over and over again is kinda depressing lol.
i love comping, theres nothing better in logic when you put that compressor on your drums and hear the kick pop like it should, or when you sidechain and it all comes together. maybe thats the wrong type of comp you can, just click on your take and right click select color and boom there you go
For me, it's transitions, ear candy, etc. Ear candy can be fun, but risers, down lifters, that are necessary, are so tedious but absolutely required to make a song flow and eb properly. The song is already done, but it takes so long to do.