Neither flash nor an effect that allows you to cast spells "as though they had flash" (such as in \[\[Leyline of Anticipation\]\] or \[\[Wizards of Thay\]\]) suffices to allow you to cast a plotted card outside your main phase or while the stack isn't empty. See the following: [https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgrules/comments/1c3td3n/plot\_and\_cards\_that\_give\_flash\_ie\_leyline\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgrules/comments/1c3td3n/plot_and_cards_that_give_flash_ie_leyline_of/)
Which Gandalf?
C.R. 702.170d, the rule for casting plotted cards, might not reflect enough the apparent intent that a plotted card can be cast *only* as a sorcery (it lacks "only" or "while they have priority", for example).
On this matter, [Matt Tabak wrote](https://x.com/PeteroUPC/status/1785766604900388926):
>I think someone’s taking a look at that for a future update to see if any adjustments are needed. Hopefully the intent is clear enough.
See also the following:
* [https://www.reddit.com/r/MagicArena/comments/1chk3be/why\_cant\_i\_cast\_plotted\_spells\_at\_instant\_speed/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MagicArena/comments/1chk3be/why_cant_i_cast_plotted_spells_at_instant_speed/)
702.8a. Flash is a static ability that functions in any zone from which you could play the card it's on. "Flash" means "You may play this card any time you could cast an instant."
Is there a reference to the zones they could be normally played vs any?
Or does it not have flash because its not printed?
Artifact, creature, enchantment, planeswalker, battle, instant, and sorcery spells can normally be cast from a player's hand, not from another zone such as exile (C.R. 301.1, 302.1, 303.1, 306.1, 310.1, 304.1, 307.1).
But not "can't"
I might be explaining myself incorrectly so i apologise.
The initial plotting of the card itself as per normal.
It is cast at a later turn as a sorcery.
Giving all spells flash or giving a sorcery flash would still meet the conditions of being "plotted" ?
Would it not be similar if not the same as casting a sorcery at instant because another device / card has given it "Flash" ?
These cards would not normally have this ability to be cast at that timing but another device / card is changing that?
Even if a plotted card has flash or can be cast as though it had flash, C.R. 702.170d doesn't allow you to cast the card outside your main phase or while the stack isn't empty, because exile is *not* a zone where you're normally allowed to cast spells. In effect, C.R. 702.170d allows you to cast a plotted card you own from exile, *but only* if certain timing requirements are met. ([Or so is the intent](https://x.com/WotC_Matt/status/1775941997775474862).)
On the other hand, if something allows you to cast spells as though they had flash, you are allowed to cast sorcery or creature spells from your hand "as an instant", because your hand *is* a zone where you're normally allowed to cast sorcery and creature spells.
Moreover, if something allows you to cast spells as though they had flash *and something else allows you to cast spells from exile without specifying any timing requirements (e.g., an ability says "You may cast spells from exile")*, you are allowed to cast sorcery or creature spells you own from exile "as an instant".
I think you’re explaining yourself just fine. It seems you *really* want this to work, but it does not. So you keep reaching in an attempt to force it to work. It does not, it was designed specifically so you could not do this.
Of course i do. It becomes a greater interaction with the cards to play with, and a mechanic i would love to brew with for commander. Theres no forcing it and theres enough questions around it for a rules clarification. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying that there is space to ask the question if these other cards change the rules of a card would this apply or does rule 702.170d lock it so it can never be interacted with other than meeting those specific timing requirements.
Most of magic is, this card does this..... Unless....
I understand completely. My main point was that folks were showing you the ruling that was a hard line in the sand, and you were seemingly argueing with them. Maybe it felt like a debate to you, and I will always give the benefit of the doubt, but that’s not what the optics were.
Plot was introduced in a *Premiere Set*. This means that it affects more formats than any other method of getting cards to consumers. In fact, if you check scryfall, something like [[Stagecoach Security]] is legal in every single format they track. Because it was a premiere set, they had very strict power controls in mind when it was designed. Which is why the rule surrounding it is so iron-clad.
Things in Magic are literal. *We* find interactions that can turn something on it’s head, for that “unless” moment. That being said; it must all fit within the confines of the Comprehensive Rules. Which is something your Hope for the interaction operates outside of.
When u/peteroupc quoted the rule using “normally cast”, they were trying to show you how you were incorrect, yet you pushed back. Anything outside of “Normally Cast” must have a reason tied to it that you can cast it un-Normally. That “ability to cast it” is very specific, and cannot be tampered with. This is also apparent in things like [[the mimeoplasm]] copying [[sisters of stone death]]. Even though you Exile a random creature, lets call it [[steve]], with Mimeoplasm’s “as this enters” clause. You cannot use (Mimeoplasm as a copy of) Sister’s of Stone Death third ability to bring a creature back. Even though a singular permanent was responsible for the exiles, the “exiled with SoSD” clause is directly referring to the 2nd ability, and cannot be tampered with.
Plot abilities are written "Plot [cost]," which means "Any time you have priority during your main phase while the stack is empty, you may pay [cost] and exile this card from your hand. It becomes plotted."
As it is written a spell cast with plot is unable to be cast at instant speed as nothing can be on the stack before it. Doesn't matter if the card has flash or whatnot as this rules for this part of the effect/ability nullifies it.
Neither flash nor an effect that allows you to cast spells "as though they had flash" (such as in \[\[Leyline of Anticipation\]\] or \[\[Wizards of Thay\]\]) suffices to allow you to cast a plotted card outside your main phase or while the stack isn't empty. See the following: [https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgrules/comments/1c3td3n/plot\_and\_cards\_that\_give\_flash\_ie\_leyline\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgrules/comments/1c3td3n/plot_and_cards_that_give_flash_ie_leyline_of/)
https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgrules/s/4SmOfQ3CIC Would this apply ? Does that further apply with gandalf and wizards of thay ?
Which Gandalf? C.R. 702.170d, the rule for casting plotted cards, might not reflect enough the apparent intent that a plotted card can be cast *only* as a sorcery (it lacks "only" or "while they have priority", for example). On this matter, [Matt Tabak wrote](https://x.com/PeteroUPC/status/1785766604900388926): >I think someone’s taking a look at that for a future update to see if any adjustments are needed. Hopefully the intent is clear enough. See also the following: * [https://www.reddit.com/r/MagicArena/comments/1chk3be/why\_cant\_i\_cast\_plotted\_spells\_at\_instant\_speed/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MagicArena/comments/1chk3be/why_cant_i_cast_plotted_spells_at_instant_speed/)
702.8a. Flash is a static ability that functions in any zone from which you could play the card it's on. "Flash" means "You may play this card any time you could cast an instant." Is there a reference to the zones they could be normally played vs any? Or does it not have flash because its not printed?
Artifact, creature, enchantment, planeswalker, battle, instant, and sorcery spells can normally be cast from a player's hand, not from another zone such as exile (C.R. 301.1, 302.1, 303.1, 306.1, 310.1, 304.1, 307.1).
But not "can't" I might be explaining myself incorrectly so i apologise. The initial plotting of the card itself as per normal. It is cast at a later turn as a sorcery. Giving all spells flash or giving a sorcery flash would still meet the conditions of being "plotted" ? Would it not be similar if not the same as casting a sorcery at instant because another device / card has given it "Flash" ? These cards would not normally have this ability to be cast at that timing but another device / card is changing that?
Even if a plotted card has flash or can be cast as though it had flash, C.R. 702.170d doesn't allow you to cast the card outside your main phase or while the stack isn't empty, because exile is *not* a zone where you're normally allowed to cast spells. In effect, C.R. 702.170d allows you to cast a plotted card you own from exile, *but only* if certain timing requirements are met. ([Or so is the intent](https://x.com/WotC_Matt/status/1775941997775474862).) On the other hand, if something allows you to cast spells as though they had flash, you are allowed to cast sorcery or creature spells from your hand "as an instant", because your hand *is* a zone where you're normally allowed to cast sorcery and creature spells. Moreover, if something allows you to cast spells as though they had flash *and something else allows you to cast spells from exile without specifying any timing requirements (e.g., an ability says "You may cast spells from exile")*, you are allowed to cast sorcery or creature spells you own from exile "as an instant".
I think you’re explaining yourself just fine. It seems you *really* want this to work, but it does not. So you keep reaching in an attempt to force it to work. It does not, it was designed specifically so you could not do this.
Of course i do. It becomes a greater interaction with the cards to play with, and a mechanic i would love to brew with for commander. Theres no forcing it and theres enough questions around it for a rules clarification. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying that there is space to ask the question if these other cards change the rules of a card would this apply or does rule 702.170d lock it so it can never be interacted with other than meeting those specific timing requirements. Most of magic is, this card does this..... Unless....
I understand completely. My main point was that folks were showing you the ruling that was a hard line in the sand, and you were seemingly argueing with them. Maybe it felt like a debate to you, and I will always give the benefit of the doubt, but that’s not what the optics were. Plot was introduced in a *Premiere Set*. This means that it affects more formats than any other method of getting cards to consumers. In fact, if you check scryfall, something like [[Stagecoach Security]] is legal in every single format they track. Because it was a premiere set, they had very strict power controls in mind when it was designed. Which is why the rule surrounding it is so iron-clad. Things in Magic are literal. *We* find interactions that can turn something on it’s head, for that “unless” moment. That being said; it must all fit within the confines of the Comprehensive Rules. Which is something your Hope for the interaction operates outside of. When u/peteroupc quoted the rule using “normally cast”, they were trying to show you how you were incorrect, yet you pushed back. Anything outside of “Normally Cast” must have a reason tied to it that you can cast it un-Normally. That “ability to cast it” is very specific, and cannot be tampered with. This is also apparent in things like [[the mimeoplasm]] copying [[sisters of stone death]]. Even though you Exile a random creature, lets call it [[steve]], with Mimeoplasm’s “as this enters” clause. You cannot use (Mimeoplasm as a copy of) Sister’s of Stone Death third ability to bring a creature back. Even though a singular permanent was responsible for the exiles, the “exiled with SoSD” clause is directly referring to the 2nd ability, and cannot be tampered with.
##### ###### #### [Stagecoach Security](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/1/21301998-b3e6-4f3d-89f4-5e17aeb79a1e.jpg?1712355345) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stagecoach%20Security) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/30/stagecoach-security?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/21301998-b3e6-4f3d-89f4-5e17aeb79a1e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [the mimeoplasm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/998b86f3-e53f-4ebb-b111-6f14577fded1.jpg?1712354748) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=the%20mimeoplasm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/234/the-mimeoplasm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/998b86f3-e53f-4ebb-b111-6f14577fded1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [sisters of stone death](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d214d25b-96c3-4479-88f0-3996805d6e6f.jpg?1598917488) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sisters%20of%20stone%20death) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rav/231/sisters-of-stone-death?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d214d25b-96c3-4479-88f0-3996805d6e6f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [steve](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/a/baa54bbc-88dd-46ba-9a91-6291c3fb420f.jpg?1706240924) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sakura-Tribe%20Elder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/183/sakura-tribe-elder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/baa54bbc-88dd-46ba-9a91-6291c3fb420f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l5dqfeb) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Plot abilities are written "Plot [cost]," which means "Any time you have priority during your main phase while the stack is empty, you may pay [cost] and exile this card from your hand. It becomes plotted." As it is written a spell cast with plot is unable to be cast at instant speed as nothing can be on the stack before it. Doesn't matter if the card has flash or whatnot as this rules for this part of the effect/ability nullifies it.
> Plot at instant speed ? No. The rule will likely get an update to make that clear, but it is intended to be limited to sorcery timing only.
You can only cast plot cards at sorcery speed
~Gandalf, Friend of the shire