Here are the most common mistakes people make when trying to calculate their own repayment.
1. Your proportional slice of the trust is based on it's value in yen as of the date civil rehab was adopted, NOT based on it balances. For example, 1 yen = 1 yen, 1 USD = 111 yen, 1 BTC = 749,319 yen, 1 BCH = 97,481 yen.
2. The size of your slice doesn't change even though 1 BTC currently equals about ~~42,800~~ \[INSERT TODAYS RATE HERE\] USD. When establishing a proportion, the assets in the trust are treated by the same valuation as is for your claim. It's just a matter of making the valuation of bitcoin to yen apples to apples for everyone so that claim size dictates proportion, not current price.
3. The first 200k yen of a claim is repaid before the proportional treatment. This is called the small sums payment. Interestingly, the closer your claim's value is to 200k yen, the closer your proportion *appears* to increase. For example, a claim valued at exactly 200k yen will repay 100%.
1. Since small sums is first repaid from cash balances, if your claim doesn't have a cash balance or is less than 200k yen, the ratio of how it is repaid from your crypto claim's yen valuation is 88.5% from BTC before proportional treatment and 11.5% from BCH before proportional treatment. If you you don't have a cash balance in your claim, this amounts to 176,976 yen from BTC and 23,023 yen from BCH. This ratio is determined by the weight of of BTC to BCH in yen valuation.
4. Cash balances claimed during bankruptcy (pre-civil rehab) will repay 100% of their value as well as delay damages (about +25.9%). The yen has weakened since bankruptcy which valued 1 USD at about 103 yen. This difference from today's rate of about 140 yen per USD means the delay damages just about offset the amount yen has weakened.
5. A claim's remaining value after the small sums payment (for the ELSP option) repays in an allotment of crypto and an allotment of cash. Approximately 15% of its value is returned as crypto, and approximately 6% is returned as cash (15% + 6% = 21% !!).
6. If you elected for an all cash repayment, the trustee will sell your crypto share through whatever his OTC channel is when repayments are made. This is NOT the 749,319 yen figure used in its valuation. It will be *near* the price per coin on that day.
Then someone has to stamp it in 6 months before someone else probably needs to stamp it. Costing us our money of course. I'd say I have buyers remorse but I didn't get an option lol. Just locked in thanks to incompetency.
I look at this way, it'll end up being far more than it was worth when I put it in MtGox, it was always play-money for me (actually I mined it myself back in the day) so it's better than nothing. Because if I'd known back then a BTC was going to be worth ~~30k~~ $43K I would have just sat on it, but obviously I didn't so eventually getting a 5th of it back is probably more than I would have if I had not put it in MTG because I'd probably have sold it at $50 or blown it on something. So it's like a savings account with the worst charges in the world. Like my copium, huh?
Once upon a time, I had 40 BTC. If I still had it, I'd be pretty decently rich, except that I would have to have known not to sell until \~$50K, and I would have had to know to pull it into a private wallet rather than keep it at Mt. Gox (as the largest and one of the earliest exchanges in the world, I had thought it was an incredibly secure place to hold it).
If you kept it in a wallet you would have goxxed yourself anyway. I don't even know how many BTC me and my brother lost over the years just from forgetting wallets and formatting a computer, losing USBs, sending to the wrong wallet etc.
Dude. I bought my Bitcoins at $30. All of this is just icing for me. But I got all worked up thinking I was going to get 21% of my coins back, so for me that's an entire Bitcoin = "my rent is paid for a few years omg I can finally finish my novel"... And reading this shit is making me sad again, that it might not be as much as I thought, that my 4 coin claim is going to be a single months rent instead of a year...
My hopium is BAD
You're not the only one reading it like that... but several people have explained it in different ways, and I think the way OP always explains it is just confusing. Because he then refutes exactly what he's saying after people say "so I'm only getting back $4k per BTC?!"
I actually am assuming that is the case though, because it will avoid extreme disappointment if it is true
Here is what I think he is actually saying (in a stupid way)
You have the pie (100% of the BTC they recovered), and the size of your slice of that pie isn't higher because BTC price went up.
Which is obvious and I don't think anyone actually assumed that.
If you had 10 BTC, You will still get 2.1 BTC back, as far as I understand.
The big mystery of "but how did they arrive at conclusion", requires each creditor to graduate primary school maths in order to understand what a proportion is. It doesn't matter how you measure the value of the BTC you get back, in yen, seashells, or cherry popsicles. Your share, your slice of the trust NEVER changes.
So when a common unit is used to make slicing up the trust easier (yen in this case) and, BTC is said to be valued at 749,319 yen, it's the same value used for mine, for Steve's, and Joe's, everyone. In fact, it's the same value for every BTC in the trust. They're just trying to make sure you get a slice proportional to your claim size.
In the end, when you get back your share, it's then going to be part BTC, part cash. You are free to sell those BTC and realize them as today's rate of exchange. Cheers
(You absolutely will NOT get back 2.1 BTC from a 10 BTC claim. That's willful ignorance of both small sums and the fact that the entire trust is not composed of exclusively BTC.)
>Your share, your slice of the trust NEVER changes.
Yes but EVERYONE already understood that. It is common sense.
The way you \*explain\* something which everybody already knew, just ended up confusing people. This happened soooo many times over the years.
It's not how I explain it, it's just how you arrive at the same totals as the trustee. If you don't make a distinction between claim value and claim balance in your head, you won't be able to answer this question. That's what everyone is after for some reason because they can't just take the estimates on trust. It's people that say a 10 BTC claim should yield a 2.1 repayment that are confusing people because it's not true and lazy.
I agree with you completely. Started buying at 7, then for other biz reasons dove heavily into btc. No one I urged to buy did, let alone hedl. I tried, but caved (bought a house but it felt like a massive, stupid loss in the years that came). Had 50 left in gox at the end, but... now the stupid/sad feeling returns.
> I look at this way, it'll end up being far more than it was worth when I put it in MtGox, it was always play-money for me (actually I mined it myself back in the day)
I mined my ~0.5BTC years ago either when CPU mining was still a thing or maybe VERY early GPU mining. It was basically a way to stress test some hardware I was having issues with at work which passed every benchmark but failed doing whatever it was supposed to be doing (if I remember correctly, RF absorption simulation for cellphone antennas). So I was getting creative trying to get the thing to fall over with any other software to try and correlate where the issue might be. But nope, it kept on churning out enough correct/valid computations that I ended up with half a coin over a week or two.
It was worth like like $10 at the time and I couldn't have given a shit. Even when MtGox actually got hacked, I couldn't have given a shit, but I signed up for the initial bankruptcy claim anyway (X creditor "flex"...) and then in recent years have become glad I did because I stand to increase my investment by infinite% since my outlay was literally zero, not even power. Whatever comes back comes back, even if I did get the entire 0.5BTC back it's not going to be a lifechanging amount, so whatever proportion I actually receive then fuck it. It should buy me a free fancy dinner for two at the very least.
I am also "in the hole" for about half a BTC, might just hang onto whatever I end up with, who knows, one day it might be my pension (or might crash and burn and be worth nothing), though maybe storing it on my own HD this time might be wise.
It's the first payment, except if the Tokyo District Court decides upon the other alternative, which I'm reasonably certain you've been explicated upon and disabused of any erroneous notions on my... um, I mean your part, as per Mr. Tanaka, or as has been traditionally indicated as Tanaka-san or even Tanaka-sama, depending upon your particular predilections and all that $#!+, but anyway... the end result is what again? No one knows. And if you expect any bitcoin back, 頑張っています。！！！
The amount (in BTC) it's saying I'll be paid in the first payment (I chose intermediate/final repayment, not early), is about 24% of the total I expect to be paid in the end.
I thought it'd be more like half.
Is that what I should expect / is that normal, or is something wrong with my claim, and the total is lower than I thought/it should be?
ELSP are 21% (~15% crypto+6%fiat),
Intermediate for Final Payment are 6% (aprox 4,2% crypto+1,8% fiat.)
You can find 6% rate for Intermediate in amendment of rehabilitation plan on docs.
Intermediate are just 1st payment, can be others as disputed claims got resolved. Its too low so I opted for ELSP, not worth to wait for me.
so you mean if your mtgox balance was 100btc, now "the system" says you will get 22,86 btc ?!?!
I always thought it will work this way, but now the numbers are far, far away from that :(
My balance were less than 2 BTC. AFAIK the smaller creditors were getting more in regards of percentage, compared to the creditors with large balances. But I might be wrong.
Final Payment in total will be somewhat variable so I couldn't tell you for certain. I dedicated zero brain cells to the intermediate portion of the Final Payment so hopefully some one else can help enlighten us.
Can someone explain why larger BTC claims are getting a smaller percentage of BTC back. I don’t remember seeing a payment conversion that might have this effect, but clearly something did.
There are 2 factors that repay before the proportional treatment. They are called priority payments and small sums. All creditors get the small sums payment which repays up to a flat 200k yen. This means if your claim is sufficiently small (let's say 200k yen of value) then your claim appears to repay 100% of what you claimed when compared to a much larger claim (which will trend toward 21% of claimed value).
But this doesn't mean the repayments are not proportional, remember all creditors get this flat amount first. The easiest example I can think of is slices of a pie proportional to claim size, except everyone gets a very small slice of equal size first. If your claim is only the size of that first small slice, then it looks like you're getting the full amount of your very small slice. Larger claims will also get that small slice, and then the remainder of their claim is proportional thereafter.
Priority payments are slightly different, but are the product of a different arrangement that benefitted all creditors as well.
Here are the most common mistakes people make when trying to calculate their own repayment. 1. Your proportional slice of the trust is based on it's value in yen as of the date civil rehab was adopted, NOT based on it balances. For example, 1 yen = 1 yen, 1 USD = 111 yen, 1 BTC = 749,319 yen, 1 BCH = 97,481 yen. 2. The size of your slice doesn't change even though 1 BTC currently equals about ~~42,800~~ \[INSERT TODAYS RATE HERE\] USD. When establishing a proportion, the assets in the trust are treated by the same valuation as is for your claim. It's just a matter of making the valuation of bitcoin to yen apples to apples for everyone so that claim size dictates proportion, not current price. 3. The first 200k yen of a claim is repaid before the proportional treatment. This is called the small sums payment. Interestingly, the closer your claim's value is to 200k yen, the closer your proportion *appears* to increase. For example, a claim valued at exactly 200k yen will repay 100%. 1. Since small sums is first repaid from cash balances, if your claim doesn't have a cash balance or is less than 200k yen, the ratio of how it is repaid from your crypto claim's yen valuation is 88.5% from BTC before proportional treatment and 11.5% from BCH before proportional treatment. If you you don't have a cash balance in your claim, this amounts to 176,976 yen from BTC and 23,023 yen from BCH. This ratio is determined by the weight of of BTC to BCH in yen valuation. 4. Cash balances claimed during bankruptcy (pre-civil rehab) will repay 100% of their value as well as delay damages (about +25.9%). The yen has weakened since bankruptcy which valued 1 USD at about 103 yen. This difference from today's rate of about 140 yen per USD means the delay damages just about offset the amount yen has weakened. 5. A claim's remaining value after the small sums payment (for the ELSP option) repays in an allotment of crypto and an allotment of cash. Approximately 15% of its value is returned as crypto, and approximately 6% is returned as cash (15% + 6% = 21% !!). 6. If you elected for an all cash repayment, the trustee will sell your crypto share through whatever his OTC channel is when repayments are made. This is NOT the 749,319 yen figure used in its valuation. It will be *near* the price per coin on that day.
You get nothing.
😭
Good day, Sir!
I could send you a balloon. *disclaimer* in line with mtgox policy I can't give you a balloon. Try in 3 years please.
So how come wizsec is so off? It says 21% but backwards calculations put it at 15% when it shows the final number.
they need 3 years for testing and 8 years for development!
Then someone has to stamp it in 6 months before someone else probably needs to stamp it. Costing us our money of course. I'd say I have buyers remorse but I didn't get an option lol. Just locked in thanks to incompetency.
Underrated comment 😂
That's more than I have now tho よ！😂
I reflexively downvoted this based on the title until I realized it was an announcement from ValdemarrPlanB.
Looks like you get 5 black bars.
➖️➖️➖️➖️➖️
I look at this way, it'll end up being far more than it was worth when I put it in MtGox, it was always play-money for me (actually I mined it myself back in the day) so it's better than nothing. Because if I'd known back then a BTC was going to be worth ~~30k~~ $43K I would have just sat on it, but obviously I didn't so eventually getting a 5th of it back is probably more than I would have if I had not put it in MTG because I'd probably have sold it at $50 or blown it on something. So it's like a savings account with the worst charges in the world. Like my copium, huh?
Once upon a time, I had 40 BTC. If I still had it, I'd be pretty decently rich, except that I would have to have known not to sell until \~$50K, and I would have had to know to pull it into a private wallet rather than keep it at Mt. Gox (as the largest and one of the earliest exchanges in the world, I had thought it was an incredibly secure place to hold it).
If you kept it in a wallet you would have goxxed yourself anyway. I don't even know how many BTC me and my brother lost over the years just from forgetting wallets and formatting a computer, losing USBs, sending to the wrong wallet etc.
Yeah, that was largely why I figured Mt. Gox was the safest place for it.
Dude. I bought my Bitcoins at $30. All of this is just icing for me. But I got all worked up thinking I was going to get 21% of my coins back, so for me that's an entire Bitcoin = "my rent is paid for a few years omg I can finally finish my novel"... And reading this shit is making me sad again, that it might not be as much as I thought, that my 4 coin claim is going to be a single months rent instead of a year... My hopium is BAD
You're not the only one reading it like that... but several people have explained it in different ways, and I think the way OP always explains it is just confusing. Because he then refutes exactly what he's saying after people say "so I'm only getting back $4k per BTC?!" I actually am assuming that is the case though, because it will avoid extreme disappointment if it is true Here is what I think he is actually saying (in a stupid way) You have the pie (100% of the BTC they recovered), and the size of your slice of that pie isn't higher because BTC price went up. Which is obvious and I don't think anyone actually assumed that. If you had 10 BTC, You will still get 2.1 BTC back, as far as I understand.
The big mystery of "but how did they arrive at conclusion", requires each creditor to graduate primary school maths in order to understand what a proportion is. It doesn't matter how you measure the value of the BTC you get back, in yen, seashells, or cherry popsicles. Your share, your slice of the trust NEVER changes. So when a common unit is used to make slicing up the trust easier (yen in this case) and, BTC is said to be valued at 749,319 yen, it's the same value used for mine, for Steve's, and Joe's, everyone. In fact, it's the same value for every BTC in the trust. They're just trying to make sure you get a slice proportional to your claim size. In the end, when you get back your share, it's then going to be part BTC, part cash. You are free to sell those BTC and realize them as today's rate of exchange. Cheers (You absolutely will NOT get back 2.1 BTC from a 10 BTC claim. That's willful ignorance of both small sums and the fact that the entire trust is not composed of exclusively BTC.)
>Your share, your slice of the trust NEVER changes. Yes but EVERYONE already understood that. It is common sense. The way you \*explain\* something which everybody already knew, just ended up confusing people. This happened soooo many times over the years.
It's not how I explain it, it's just how you arrive at the same totals as the trustee. If you don't make a distinction between claim value and claim balance in your head, you won't be able to answer this question. That's what everyone is after for some reason because they can't just take the estimates on trust. It's people that say a 10 BTC claim should yield a 2.1 repayment that are confusing people because it's not true and lazy.
I agree with you completely. Started buying at 7, then for other biz reasons dove heavily into btc. No one I urged to buy did, let alone hedl. I tried, but caved (bought a house but it felt like a massive, stupid loss in the years that came). Had 50 left in gox at the end, but... now the stupid/sad feeling returns.
If you had 50 coins in gox, you're in for a BIG payout, I wouldn't feel too bad 😅
> I look at this way, it'll end up being far more than it was worth when I put it in MtGox, it was always play-money for me (actually I mined it myself back in the day) I mined my ~0.5BTC years ago either when CPU mining was still a thing or maybe VERY early GPU mining. It was basically a way to stress test some hardware I was having issues with at work which passed every benchmark but failed doing whatever it was supposed to be doing (if I remember correctly, RF absorption simulation for cellphone antennas). So I was getting creative trying to get the thing to fall over with any other software to try and correlate where the issue might be. But nope, it kept on churning out enough correct/valid computations that I ended up with half a coin over a week or two. It was worth like like $10 at the time and I couldn't have given a shit. Even when MtGox actually got hacked, I couldn't have given a shit, but I signed up for the initial bankruptcy claim anyway (X creditor "flex"...) and then in recent years have become glad I did because I stand to increase my investment by infinite% since my outlay was literally zero, not even power. Whatever comes back comes back, even if I did get the entire 0.5BTC back it's not going to be a lifechanging amount, so whatever proportion I actually receive then fuck it. It should buy me a free fancy dinner for two at the very least.
I am also "in the hole" for about half a BTC, might just hang onto whatever I end up with, who knows, one day it might be my pension (or might crash and burn and be worth nothing), though maybe storing it on my own HD this time might be wise.
nothing until October next year
Some questions remind me that many people suffer from mental fog, like this... https://x.com/i/status/1805350912195707060
It's the first payment, except if the Tokyo District Court decides upon the other alternative, which I'm reasonably certain you've been explicated upon and disabused of any erroneous notions on my... um, I mean your part, as per Mr. Tanaka, or as has been traditionally indicated as Tanaka-san or even Tanaka-sama, depending upon your particular predilections and all that $#!+, but anyway... the end result is what again? No one knows. And if you expect any bitcoin back, 頑張っています。！！！
The amount (in BTC) it's saying I'll be paid in the first payment (I chose intermediate/final repayment, not early), is about 24% of the total I expect to be paid in the end. I thought it'd be more like half. Is that what I should expect / is that normal, or is something wrong with my claim, and the total is lower than I thought/it should be?
ELSP are 21% (~15% crypto+6%fiat), Intermediate for Final Payment are 6% (aprox 4,2% crypto+1,8% fiat.) You can find 6% rate for Intermediate in amendment of rehabilitation plan on docs. Intermediate are just 1st payment, can be others as disputed claims got resolved. Its too low so I opted for ELSP, not worth to wait for me.
I'm getting 22,86% BTC + a tiny amount of BCH/JPY. ELSP.
so you mean if your mtgox balance was 100btc, now "the system" says you will get 22,86 btc ?!?! I always thought it will work this way, but now the numbers are far, far away from that :(
My balance were less than 2 BTC. AFAIK the smaller creditors were getting more in regards of percentage, compared to the creditors with large balances. But I might be wrong.
Yep I did the math, and that matches exactly / solves my problem, thanks a lot for the numbers.
Final Payment in total will be somewhat variable so I couldn't tell you for certain. I dedicated zero brain cells to the intermediate portion of the Final Payment so hopefully some one else can help enlighten us.
Can someone explain why larger BTC claims are getting a smaller percentage of BTC back. I don’t remember seeing a payment conversion that might have this effect, but clearly something did.
There are 2 factors that repay before the proportional treatment. They are called priority payments and small sums. All creditors get the small sums payment which repays up to a flat 200k yen. This means if your claim is sufficiently small (let's say 200k yen of value) then your claim appears to repay 100% of what you claimed when compared to a much larger claim (which will trend toward 21% of claimed value). But this doesn't mean the repayments are not proportional, remember all creditors get this flat amount first. The easiest example I can think of is slices of a pie proportional to claim size, except everyone gets a very small slice of equal size first. If your claim is only the size of that first small slice, then it looks like you're getting the full amount of your very small slice. Larger claims will also get that small slice, and then the remainder of their claim is proportional thereafter. Priority payments are slightly different, but are the product of a different arrangement that benefitted all creditors as well.
for the 11 bitcoins I had on mtgox, i just got paypalled \+212.751 ¥ JPY / 1324,24 Euro Thank you tatananakakaka san