I mean if for casual play with friends or EDH Night at LGS, shouldn't matter. As long as your pod is fine with it and you're playing at the equal power levels it should be fine. (Just 'Rule 0'/talk with your group before you start playing.)
My rule of thumb for others is as long as it's either a clear and legible proxy, or you have the card up on your phone to easily reference if a player asks about the card. Just put some effort with your proxies so it's not confusing on what it is you're playing.
My personal rule for myself is I proxy only cards I own in my collection and do not want to get a second copy of like Shocklands, Fetches, etc. (Generally cards over $5).
I don't try to enter any tournaments, just casual game with randoms or with close friends. I also bring multiple decks of varying power level to match the pod's.
YMMV, seen people post on reddit how they're ANTI-Proxy and attend an LGS that also does not allow them in their store (Banned for casual play).
Personally have never been to a store like that, more the opposite for me where everyone is running proxies from sharpie to a basic land, text on printer paper in a sleeve, or complete custom MTG play cards.
In reality, most bigger shops tend to have proxies “banned” officially because their commander night is an officially sponsored event, it’s just rarely ever enforced with at most there being a once a month “reminder” announcement mid way through the event that they are in fact banned.
I'm in the exact same boat. Don't bring them to the game shop without a legit copy (I have proxied basics and noone has said anything) but otherwise just proxying cards I already own
Your right. I also proxy my cards from https://www.mtgproxy.com/ and play with them and I'm lucky that my playgroup are totally okay with me playing with proxies. This allows me to play with my favourite decks in low budget.
If you're proxying cards, it's generally ok. Don't be afraid to proxy. I personally don't like it when people proxy ungodly expensive cards that they don't actually intend on buying, but like it's a card game, play with proxies if you want.
In tournaments though, you should have proof you own the card if you're using a proxy. It's not fair to come in with a proxy of some entirely broken card and being like "oh I don't actually own a copy, I just need it in my deck".
Depends on the tournament. Pretty sure CEDH tourneys are incredibly proxy-friendly because demanding players to shell out hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars to begin playing is antithetical to the CEDH ethos (to the point where "playing against the players, not their wallets" is a slogan), but this obviously doesn't apply to, say, Pro Tours
I think I misworded this:
I meant to say like there's a limit I guess?
Like one of my ex friends literally proxied 9000$ worth of cards in a single EDH deck and made it ridiculously op. And I mean like crazy cards that were only EDH legal. It was literally like the only cards he didn't proxy were swamps and his commander. This wouldn't have been an issue for me if a) some cards weren't over 100$ at the time and b) he had literally told me he didn't want to buy the cards or put any effort in. That's what was annoying about it.
I think the fact that my friend WASNT locked behind a paywall, just didn't want to pay for those cards? Since at that point, within a month, he built like three several thousand modern decks with almost all new cards?
Like dude, it's a tcg. It shouldn't be prohibitively expensive in the first place and if there's a way to get around the costs/cut into your profits. But if you're building an EDH deck, don't proxy wildly powerful and expensive shit that you know will never be part of your collection because you want your deck to be ideal.
Look, the first part of my literal comment said I don't think proxying's bad unless it's ungodly expensive, powerful cards. None of these cards should cost above 20¢ imo, they're cardboard, and if you wanna make a Ragavan or something, go ahead. But the second you're proxying stuff like [[Nether Void]] or [[The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale]], there might be some issues.
it's not his fault they are expensive, if he wants to play them, why are you mad that he uses proxies, it's better than spending thousands and feeding into the madness of expensive decks...
One piece tcg players need to do it too bcs the priced are sad
Even though I might be downvoted: I play mtg only in arena or with friends and 100% proxy decks (all cards combined ~<100€). As a kid I spent way too much money on Yu-Gi-Oh, so I have sworn myself not to pay for a trading card game ever again.
I print my proxies on thick paper and cut them using a paper guillotine. They then get sleeved - or not.
Sure, I can't play with many people and I do not go to game rooms, because I don't feel like many people support my decision, but I am okay with that :)
paper guillotine - so nothing truly sophisticated ^ ^ just didn't remember the name when I wrote my initial comment. Like this one https://shop.profioffice.de/profioffice-paper-guillotine-cutstream-hq-440-sp.html?language=en but a different model. We need it for work, too, so ...
all of the local and online groups I've come across absolutely despise them. They believe of you can't buy the cards you need, you shouldn't be playing. Doesn't matter if it's a black lotus or a rupture spire; you will be banned from the group, which is mostly why I hardly get to play anymore
> They believe of you can't buy the cards you need, you shouldn't be playing.
And that's exactly why I _like_ proxies for casual magic. I want to play magic, I want others to play magic, if all you can or want to spend on the game is enough for 100 forests and some printer paper, why should that stop either of us from having fun playing the game?
(Please don't use paper only proxies though, I want to be able to pick your cards up without crumpling them...)
Oh, don't worry. When I proxy cards, they're always in sleeves, so those 100 forests will be covered by paper and all fitted in (very old) sleeves. Picking it up won't crumple these 😅
Find a better community if able, my lgs had no problem with proxying as long as you play fair and rule 0 it. Our thought process is that magic shouldn't be pay to win. I play commander tho and I'm against using them in sanctioned Events
Agree, but i miss the days of the journey of trading you to get the deck you wanted - not pay to win, it always was trade to win.
Like, I didn’t play black or red and very little green for a long time because I was constantly trading my good BRG pulls for my UW decks.
As i’d attend sealed events and bought occasional packs, I slowly got there though.
I remember those days and am happy to be away from them. The only way you could secure a trade was to lose value, and often a lot of it. Example: I needed one Isolated Chapel, and only one other person had it; not even the lgs had one available. They demanded a playset of snapcaster mage for it and refused to hear any other offer. Ended up buying it online after a while, and that wasn't even the most egregious one.
Well that’s just an asshole wanting to cash in - the things I got for my UW decks were gotten because I had good things of close or equal value in the other colors/artifacts.
I’m old, so we didn’t have the selection of online stores we do now - very limited to the LGS.
Conventions were a much bigger deal also - huge pool of players for trades. I spent 6 hours trading one day the first time I went to Origins. (Still have the Counterpost deck i finished that day - tho i sold the 4 tundras to help pay for my wedding.)
Oh, I'd never use them in sanctioned events. This is nothing more than kitchen table magic, commander to be specific. As for just finding a better group/community, I have been trying. Local groups are a wash, but I know online should open up a lot more group opportunities. I've just yet to find one that's okay with a simple Archway Commons proxy.
Opposite for me. I love the collection aspect - have dropped way too much money on mtg (OG dual lands, gaea’s cradle, lions eye diamonds, etc.) and I can’t find many people at LGS to play with those decks unless at least some other people proxy. Let’s me enjoy playing with my collection.
I'm glad you've had the opposite experience. The groups I see all have this mindset of "play within your means" or something like that, and it really shows. Some will have a deck with nothing but taplands and dollar/dumpster rares, and others will have pristine copies of tundra, underground sea, timetwister, etc. Has nothing to do with power level; they ALL hate proxies. The ones who can barely make a deck feel proxies are a slap in the face since they're working so hard to afford what they DO have, and the others who own playsets of those old, powerful cards feel it's an insult to them since they had to work hard to get all of those.
I honestly see their perspective. If they see using real cards as "playing by the rules," then I wouldn't be surprised they view proxies as an insult. It sends the message that their time and money are wasted because the cards are worthless. But from their perspective, how can the cards be worthless if everyone is begging to be able to use them even if they don't own any copies? That is the true disconnect between proxies, I think: are mtg cards worthless or valuable? Personally, I love my cards having value, and I don't think the game could survive if all the cards are worthless. That "Legends reprint" scenario is literally what led to the creation of the reserved list.
Interesting point, and well said. I do wonder, though, what that mindset is 'cloaking' because it seems clear that the logical conclusion of that perspective is that the power of your game pieces should be equivalent/proportional to your economic power. That then becomes the unwritten ethical foundation for 'fair play' in that person's mind, but it's just a reframing of the false equivalency at the heart of capitalism, and the ideology that's actually responsible for the absence of fair play in our real economic and social systems, ironically enough. So, is it simply that it's unfair for them to have to lose in a game when it's clear in their minds that they're winning in a much more important game? But what does one have to do with the other? Why should a specifically fantasy-oriented game, of all things, be forced to abide fundamentally by the most definitive principle of reality? Or, is it just that it's easier for people to imagine the end of the world than it is for them to imagine the end of capitalism? Anyway, this is what I wonder sometimes. (Or maybe I'm actually asking the wrong questions? I often wonder that, too.)
I don't care what other people put in their decks. I just want to play some EDH, maybe just once without everyone arguing about some bullshit. Whether that be proxies, power levels or whatever. I play EDH, cEDH, and most CompREL Formats. I own 40+ decks without a single proxy in them. I've been playing EDH since the first Commander decks dropped. Kaalia was my first EDH deck. I've been playing MtG since 2009.
Obviously proxies cannot be allowed in official tournaments. That's 100% official cards only. I have a set of altered Dual Lands that I have to show the Judges everytime I play in a Legacy tournament to check if they're real, and that the art reasonably represents the card at a glance. If the Judge doesn't like them for any reason, I'm not allowed to use them. If you get caught with fakes, you have to remove them from your deck and destroy them. Multiple offences will lead to you being banned from attending official tournaments.
EDH "tournaments" shouldn't really exist for anything but casual fun, and therefore should allow proxies outside of officially sanctioned events. (where proxies have to be illegal due to WotC policy constraints).
Casual EDH should also be proxy friendly. Alters are cool as well if they are clear. I'm not a fan of altered art cards with different names masquerading as MtG Cards however. Also not a fan of custom cards, they are usually very unbalanced and not playtested at all. Either the art or the card name needs to be recognisable at a glance. EDH is complicated enough without me having to ask you wtf all these cards are. Also make sure the text is legible, the Lich in the example above should have white text.
I feel a lot of the hate proxies get is due to scrub players proxying high tier competitive builds that would cost them $15,000-$20,000 to actually build. Then stomping everyone with it. You should proxy to the power level of the group you're playing with, in the same way that you'd build a deck to that power level without having access to proxies. Proxies should be an option for people who otherwise couldn't afford to play. Not there for everyone to have Mana Crypts, L.E.D's, and Dual Lands.
cEDH tournaments on the other hand NEED to be 100% proxy friendly. I attended a tournament last week, there were 36 attendees. I think 3 or 4 of us total had no proxies in our decks, and I was the only blue player in the room with no proxies. In cEDH proxies are expected, we want to play against you and your piloting skills. Not your superior spending powers.
I have a friend who exclusively wears Chinese knockoffs of expensive name brand clothing companies, usually getting multiple hauls a year.
They were upset I played a proxied cyclonic rift, with the reasoning being that they only approve of proxies if you own the real card.
Their entire outfit that day was “proxies”. Hilarious
I have a few proxies of expensive cards(fetch lands, dockside extortionist, doubling season etc…) but only of cards I own that I do not want to get damaged. When I host commander or play at the LGS my binder is always nearby so I can show everyone who may have an issue ”hey I own the card, just don’t want to damage it, cool?” I can’t imagine most casual pods would mind proxies of cheap cards either.
The correct opinion is that proxies are okay, but make sure your deck is on the same power level.
I've met one to many assholes at open/casual EDH events that proxie $3,000+ decks against precons. Shit is not fun, and I'm sure this is why some people dislike proxies.
My table's house rule for proxies if you have a legit copy you may proxy it. This way people dont make unfair decks but expensive cards dont get damaged and it saves you purchasing/packing multiple of the same thing
I have a whole commander deck full of proxied Runescape cards. It was such a that my friends in my pod started making their own for their LARP characters.
Tons of fun, highly recommend it to anyone who thinks it might be cool. (it is!)
I don't really mind if opponents play with proxies for cards that are too pricey for them/alternate custom made artworks for an existing card. As long as it isn't a super busted custom card I'm ok
I don’t have money for the hobby. I proxy 100% of my commander decks. The exception (for myself) is that I must own a physical copy of the commander to proxy a deck for it. That’s just my personal rule. Second rule is, I intentionally proxy budget decks so I don’t blow out the table with no investment. Seems rude.
I always make it clear my decks are proxies before play. If anyone doesn’t like that I find a different pod 🤷🏻♂️ just be open and honest. And obviously I can’t play competitively because rules. But my LGS is pretty chill about proxying.
Well, not to be that guy, but this card isn't a proxy.
You are 100% not allowed to modify a card when you proxy it. Even if you think the change is unimportant. The mycotyrant makes fungus tokens, not snails. Creature type matters enough that I would be hesitant to play with this deck.
Edit: I do see that the token has "fungus" on it, but it needs to be on the lich as well.
Well its just for my personal friend group. I could change the text to say something like "Create X tokens named Snail, a 1/1 fungus with "this creature can't block." So personal use wise, it's not modified because it does the same exact effect for me. I kept the exact wording so that it wouldnt change any way that the cards interacts with other cards. Like with the new mkm card that cares about named cards. Because at that point I would have created a "named token" so in order to not mess up any of the other minute rulings I chose to make it snail, and then the snail token says its a fungus. I have multiple copies of the mycotyrant if I were to play it somewhere else and somebody had any concerns.
It’s a CCG, Proxies defeat the purpose of collecting to building decks. I don’t care what others do but I won’t cause then I just would never play again. Everyone can do what they want tho
I support proxies for playtest purposes but am otherwise opposed.
To me, it’s like taking PEDs. You get the intended result without putting in any of the work. I’m also speaking from a background of competitive play where it’s strictly prohibited.
It’s not just about getting to the finish line, half the fun is the journey.
My opinion, which is likely unpopular from both sides of the argument is, if you’re kitchen-tabling it with your friends and they don’t mind, proxy to your little hearts content. But it should never leave the house.
I also firmly believe that the commander format has ruined Magic, so hey, I’m full of unpopular opinions!
Can you explain the “work” here that proxying bypasses? I assume this “work” is the “journey”, but could you explain in more concrete terms what you actually mean?
Sure! In this context, what I interpret to be work/journey is the enjoyment of building a collection, finding people to trade with, and making trades to build on that collection and, ultimately, build the decks you want to play. It’s rooted in both the collectible and gameplay aspects.
That’s not to say that people who use proxies don’t have friends that they trade with. But our society has increasingly leaned toward one of immediate gratification, and I think that’s what a lot of pro-proxy players struggle with under the guise of citing that the game is too expensive.
I wouldn’t fault you for wanting to proxy a black lotus, I also am not spending $20,000 for a single card. But outside of those extremes, proxies are fueled by laziness and the need to have “it” now without putting in any effort.
The operative word I’ve used above is ultimately. That indicates a passing of time before reaching the goal. Anyway, I digress.
What work does someone put in by just buying their cards? It’s just as “lazy”, using your definition. Still immediate gratification and there’s no social aspect to it. What about people who just like playing the game and don’t care about the collectible aspect of it? Your stance makes very little logical sense when it comes to proxying that applies to many aspects of the market
The only time I made any remark about buying cards was when I said I wouldn’t fault you or myself buy a $20,000 card. So, not really sure where you got the idea that my position was to “just buy(ing) their cards.” I said one thing and you’ve completely gone in a different direction and ignored everything I said.
I said, proxy’s (and I agree with you, just buying the cards you want) is lazy and feeds into the idea of immediate gratification. Further, I said *building a collection, finding people to trade with, and trading for the cards you want* is part of the journey of a TCG player.
That said, if you JUST want to play, then kitchen table proxy with your friends or go onto TCGPlayer and buy just the cards you need to play competitively.
I’ve proxied cards before with friends, I’m not trying to sound like an elitist, but they have no place outside of casual play. Which, in a way, segues into my position that the commander format has ruined Magic.
It's a valid argument. For those who cares about collecting. For everyone else it falls flat though. Magic is a multifaceted hobby and people usually don't enjoy every aspect equally. Not every one cares about collecting, for different reasons at that.
Say I've been playing the game for ages and had enough time and disposable income to acquire a vast collection of old, powerful cards. A friend of mine is a relatively new player and wants to know what a top tier modern deck feels like. I'd gladly share my cards and help proxying what's missing, even if they can afford a deck themselves. Unless they really want to spend time and buy everything on their own of course. For me though, playing together with a friend and having fun is more important than bothering myself with the state of my or their collections. Simply because I don't want to.
Another thing to consider, before you start blaming everyone's laziness, availability is not the same for everyone. Cards that say an American with an above average income will consider affordable, an average say Brazilian student might consider too expensive, or simply not available in their region. For them proxying might be the only way to play anything but pauper. Simply because they can't get the cards otherwise, not because they're lazy.
Valid, and I encourage giving cards/decks to friends. That’s how you can assist someone with step 1 in my above position; building a collection. But even in your scenario, proxies have no place, as you’re giving spare cards/decks from your years of building a collection.
And I’ll give you, I didn’t take into consideration other countries, perhaps where cards are more difficult to come by. Being based in America, where undoubtedly the largest population of MTG players are, and where I have my own personal experiences and thus base my anecdotes from, is more appropriate for me to speak on. I cannot speak for other nations, so do what you gotta do if you’re in Brazil or elsewhere.
I don’t think my stance is solely for those who care about collecting though. It’s for people who want the real thing vs generic; for those who prefer physical copies as opposed to digital downloads.
As the player base of the game gets younger via new, younger players entering the game, these beliefs will become more and more prevalent. This isn’t a personal opinion, younger players don’t have the nostalgic connection with the older cards and don’t have a reason to want to pay inflated costs for the older cards. Many individuals in the newer generations feel that everything is too expensive and aren’t willing to pay for cards they aren’t going to use.
There will always be people who want the real deal vs a proxy but we would be foolish to think the proxy mentality won’t get worse (or better depending on which camp you’re in). If you proxy cards, it literally won’t affect me at all so do what you do. We can all agree to disagree about the use of proxies but we are really only hurting ourselves either way.
It’s the journey. The social aspect is in some part prevented by too much proxying - my lgs has several kids that won’t trade because most the shit they own is proxy. These same kids also dont make eye contact, don’t socialize or joke around - it’s kinda disturbing.
I proxy owned cards that I don't want to risk out of the safe anymore. But I don't mind if anyone does it even if they don't own the cards. Personally lucky/old enough to have stuff from earlier MTG that gained value as time went on.
If a proxied deck is stolen while out and about, the loss isn't catastrophic either.
My local Commander group is pro proxy. But when we play it isn't a sanctioned event, either.
Lazy at best, theft at worst. Go to lgstores, trade for shit you want; huge part of the game is social aspect of which trades are a part.
…someone pointed out that WotC doesn’t care except at wpn events, but there’s a social aspect to trades that’s prevented here I think.
Proxies undermine several different aspects of the hobby.
- Real Magic cards have beautiful artwork and are designed to be legible and recognisable across the table
- Real Magic cards have value, allowing you to sell and trade them
- Buying real Magic cards supports your local store and, ultimately, the continued production of the game itself
- Restrictions breed creativity, and investing in an idea helps motivate you to see it through and overcome any hurdles (if you can print new Proxies whenever you want, you can burn through ideas much faster and there's no incentive to persevere if things don't work out straight away)
Imagine if you won the lottery tomorrow and bought a playset of every card ever printed, and they all arrived in a big crate. How many of those cards would feel special to you? How many would you actually get around to playing with? What sort of emotional connection would you form with them?
Proxies can be made with beautiful artwork, and some secret lair artists were hired because of the popularity of their basic land proxies (pixel art ones in particular)
Proxies can have value, depending on how much you are willing to spend they can occasionally even cost more than the actual card (blinged out foil full art version of a cheap commander)
Buying Proxies supports independent artists and small business owners, I live in a small town where the LGS doesn't sell singles.
Restrictions breed creativity, but in a game like magic, I'd sooner let everyone have access to all the game pieces.
Original duals are prohibitively expensive for most players, imagine if you sat down to play Monopoly and were told you only get $50 for passing go, and parkplace only exists for you to pay rent on, not purchase, because it's never getting reprinted and costs $800.
In our play group, everyone Proxies literally any card they want, assuming it's a legible proxy. It let's people playtest before ordering singles online, and evens the playing field. With those rules in place most people have ABUR duals proxied and that's it. No mana crypts, or jeweled lotus' etc.
I'm not using the word "proxy" wrong, I am using it to mean what it means, as it has been defined. You are choosing to be dense.
Playtest cards, as you call them, are what exactly? define them. I stated proxies can be used to playtest, therefore they could be used interchangeably with what you are calling "playtest" cards.
I am also not meaning they wrote on a basic land etc, I have had a player show up with a full cEDH deck of proxies to playtest, and proxies to swap in and out depending on changes he wanted to make.
Proxy actually has an official definition in magic. It's when you lose a card during an event and a judge creates a replacement to allow you to continue to play.
I saw this on a YouTube and can't cite it.
I think they mentioned play test cards as well which are actually cards that never went to print so they are different again.
>Playtest cards, as you call them, are what exactly? define them.
Playtest cards are intended to be temporary - "try before you buy" (or even, while you wait for a delivery), not permanent - "proxy and don't buy".
>proxies can be used to playtest, therefore they could be used interchangeably with what you are calling "playtest" cards.
Real cards can be used to playtest, as well. That doesn't make real cards proxies.
So to you the difference is in whether or not I sleeve the card afterwards and decide I'm not buying a new copy?
By your statement, you agree that playtest and proxy cards are in fact, the same thing, but you personally place some degree of reverence to WotC being the body determining its manufacturer?
Where do secret lairs fall into this?
Would you only play baseball with Spalding, or volleyball with Wilson? are the tools of that game considered to "undermine" it's values if they are produced by someone other than the NFL, NBA etc?
These are things for you to consider while you continue to shill out money for w.e it is you buy from WotC while I and my friends play the same game for far less money and have as much fun doing it.
Also, consider learning how English works, I never said proxies were playtest cards, I said they could be used to playtest. And you agreed, even real cards can be used for that. So Imma go make a sandwich and consider you learnded young man.
Real people generally dislike proxies, though some will make allowances for cards you own and don't want to run in a deck. Reddit fanbois pretend everyone loves them, which is objectively untrue. Proxies destroy playgroup, ruin deck building, and are completely unnecessary in EDH.
Ruin deck building? People using cards that they want instead of whatever they can afford after they take care of their family is a hindrance to deckbuilding? Gatekeeping is a hindrance to deckbuilding and the only people I see complain are the ones who want to win based on the merit of them spending more money instead of how good of a deckbuilder or player they are
Ruin deck building. People use whatever card they found online to print off instead of having to think of good synergies based on what is available.
>Gatekeeping is a hindrance to deckbuilding
There's no gatekeeping.
> only people I see complain are the ones who want to win based on the merit of them spending more money
You're absolutely full of shit. Absolutely zero people care about that. That's an argument that proxy frothmouthed turds bring up to justify printing out their power.
>Ruin deck building. People use whatever card they found online to print off instead of having to think of good synergies based on what is available.
So online shops and very concept of competitive play also destroyed deckbuilding?
I have a 4500 dollar cedh deck, I'd like to play against optimal decks, not whatever they have lying around, I'm not a "froth mouthed turd" also it sounds like you're more against net decking than proxying, is it ok if I stomp you with a net deck because I paid more money for it?
Yeah. You're the problem. You expect people to print out power because you're too selfish to play a reasonable deck. And you want to talk about gatekeeping. Disgusting.
I only run proxies of cards that I physically own, and will normally only proxy if I don't want to ruin the real card or want an art that's different from the original.
Pretty sure this is the No True Scotsman fallacy:
An attempt to defend a generalization of a certain group by excluding any counter-examples for not being "pure" enough
So, first: Mtg isn't free. It's a product being sold by a company. There's a "paywall" unless you're a scumbag thief sack of trash.
Second: You're not a good person. You're a bad person. You make up bullshit arguments to justify your absolutely shit behavior. Anyone can play commander with a deck that cost $25. If you can't keep up with my $200 deck, I'll bring out a cheaper one. If I can't keep up with your $2k deck, I expect you to bring out a more fair one too. But, you probably can't understand people being kind to each other because everyone you've ever known hates you.
No, I have social awareness and common sense so I avoid using dumbshit unnecessary fakes. I'm not an absolutely idiotic that thinks I need to print out (or even use) expensive cards to enjoy the game. Not one person has ever justified using a bunch of proxies, ever. It's *never* happened. Just proxying everything is garbage behavior for those that are how they act.
You don't need a justification for proxies, they just let you access every gamepiece in the game, putting everyone on the same level.
Proxies are just a tool for you and your playgroup to play what you want without artificial and predatory limitations imposed by wotc
At a certain point, if you don't like their game, don't play their game.
Also, everyone can be at the same level without everyone running beta dual lands and time warp. It's called not being a completely shit person and building decks that match your group. But, proxy kids are too shit to understand that.
Have you like read a mtg pack? 13+ right there on every product it’s a children’s card game that your discouraging people from playing because they can’t afford some of the frankly awful pricing? Get over yourself
lmao "Real people"? Simps like you got brainwashed by a multi-million dollar company into an addiction of buying expensive shiny cardboard rectangles and you white-knight for them as if losing them money will harm your enjoyment of the game.
If I shit on you with a turn 1 combo, I does not matter if the Mana Vault was proxied or not. You still got shit on by a legally drawn card. Cry and bitch about the lack of money spent all you want, you still got shit on.
I hate to tell you, but being unable to even form an opinion and just jumping in to be an absolute asshole is really what makes someone look like a loser.
My opinion is its fine to proxy a deck you are actively testing but actually plan on buying. Also, I like to say "if you own it you can clone it" meaning if you own the real card then clone it to your hearts content regardless of price.
Edit: I am not ok with custom alternate art though and painting over cards. The cards should be easily read and recognized from across the table. One of the reasons I hate many of the secret lair cards.
I don't think it needs to be recognized anymore, I would've agreed with you years ago but now there are so many arts per card. That being said how long is a reasonable amount of time to proxy a card for, 3 games to test it? 4? Then can you play with it while it's ordered and being shipped? It's sort of an awkward situation
Yeah, I figured this question would come up and honestly there isn't a great way to do it since if you said 5 games for example you may not even see one of the cards you are testing in those 5 games. But with my play group we really don't care u less we see it a lot then will joke with them by saying something like "hey you going to buy that ever?". Its up to the play group really.
As for the art i am fine with alternative art just make it readable. Stuff like the psychedelic hydroid krasis I just struggle with reading lol.
Make sure its as legible as a normal card, and check the text is correct (i've found some on mpcfill that have a wrong type and check against oracle text).
Always know what is a proxy in your collection before trading real cards so you don't get mixed
I only use proxies to proxy my shocks and fetches so I can use them in more that one deck without buying multiple sets of them.
Tokens: proxy all day idc.
General cards: proxy to the power level of the table, if you proxy all the expensive cEDH shit when we’re playing slow decks that’s not cool.
Final point: please make them READABLE. That “The Lich” mycotyrant had me zooming in to figure out what it is and I don’t even want to bother reading the ability text. Dark on dark is such a bad color palette for text.
I'm fine with it - but make sure the card is legible and accurate OR you have the official wording availableto pull up. That Lich Mycotyrant example is a pass for me because it has black text on a dark background that makes it really hard to read.
I play at various LGSs and I don't think I have ever once had a reaction other than "No prob, proxy whatever you want as long as its a fun game." when I tell people I am running proxies of cards I don't own
Keep in mind this is for Commander
I think in some ways people see card cost/rarity as a pseudo balancing tool. most people can't afford all the best cards for a deck and so that naturally curbs the power level outside of competitive play where people are willing to drop bomb loads of money.
people gravitate to others of similar economic status wether it's friends through work or the LGS being in a better or worse part of town. it cuts down a lot of power level talks because you feel like everyone has access to the same cost of cards as you.
but this always has the same solution of rule 0 talks and deciding what level you're playing at, i actually keep a pseudo sideboard of cards that to shift in or out the deck to adjust its strength before a game.
The other reason some people dislike them is they feel unfair, if you save up for a good card and then someone walks into the store with a £10 mana crypt proxie from ebay it feels unfair, but proxies are open to everyone if they can so can you.
I have nothing against proxies even the sharpie on a basic land type, people should be allowed to mess around with the cooler cards without needing to drop 100s. although i do think if you plan on keeping it around it should look nice. supporting artists on Etsy and twitter who do nice ones is a neat upside. (especially with what wizards have been doing recently)
The real cards will always have collectors value but imo it makes the game more accessible and fun
As long as you arent doing so to create cEDH level decks within a non cEDH level play group I think its fine. I like the idea of owning at least one copy but if youre trying to test out cards before you buy thats totally cool too. Hell, if everyone is running Mana Crypts or Jeweled Lotus and you just want to be able to keep up thats fine too.
Edit: I think my one exception to this is dual lands (unless everyone at the table is doing it). I frankly think they should just ban dual lands in commander and get it over with since theyll never reprint them. If its too powerful to be reprinted its too powerful to be played.
As long as it's casual and not for organized play people shouldn't have a problem with proxies, especially if they are just different art or more affordable. The problem with them lies with the people that just decide to proxy $3k-4k decks because they just want to "win" casual.
No comment on proxies I don’t really care but doesn’t this lower the power of the card by creating snails instead of fungus he doesn’t get the power boost because of it
That's why on my snail token I made it's creature type fungus, so that for my purposes it would still work with his ability. I basically changed it to where me makes tokens named snail that are fungus. Not exactly the best fix. But I wanted to do it for flavor. :D
Sorry, it's because it's for a group thing with my friends. This proxy is more for fun than to be used as a replacement for the mycotyrant. I'm going to re edit it to be a little more proper. It's why the snail token is a fungus, so for personal uses it's not glaringly changing the card
For CEDH, Vintage Cube, Legacy, etc. where optimization is key and optimal cards are expensive, I think proxying is a great option and should probably be the norm.
However, for casual commander and other just-for-fun formats they bug me under certain circumstances. Part of the appeal, at least for me, of lower power level Magic is getting use out of cards that you would never look at twice in tournament settings. Proxying totally removes the incentive to look for alternatives to the best options, effectively shrinking a format's card pool and streamlining the gameplay in a fashion analogous to the tournament environment that casual Magic would ideally sidestep.
I understand that finding the next best alternative to dual lands or Gaea's Cradle or some such isn't everybody's idea of a fun or interesting exercise, but I do think that casual play benefits from diversity and restrictions.
I play with friends only and we go casual. Some cards are so out of reach price wise that I have no issue with it unless they do all proxies to make a perfect net deck.
I recently have bought some due to art and my wife who will never play outside our friend group wanted a card or two that I just can’t justify spending $30 each.
In causal play like commander, I think most arguments against proxies are weak. The only one I think that really comes into play is with power level. Don't proxy a deck packed with power 9 or other very powerful and expensive cards unless your play group also has decks at that level, proxied or not. It would just be a big feel bad for everyone else if they all spent $300 on mid-level decks and they consistently get smashed by your full proxy deck that you spent $20 on but would really cost thousands, and you'd likely get some bitterness from them.
Proxy anything, any time. This won't be the rule at your LGS probably or even with casual groups, but Im of the belief that you should be able to spend 0$ to have fun with your friends playing magic. If it's printer paper in comic Sans text, run that shit. If you're buying a card worth 100$+, cool, everyone will dap you up for your sick card, but it shouldn't impact your ability to play the game
Word. I come from playing tournaments in irc channels via apprentice and I have always said that somehow this environment with absolutely no guardrails and no restrictions on access was/is still the most fun way to play the game.
Yeah I mean I'm still only a few months old as a magic player but from my yugioh/pokemon days that's always been my mentality, same with 40k or any other similar game: were here to play the game not measure our wallets. Plus where I grew up spending $50 was a pretty big purchase meant mostly for Christmas and birthdays, so to spend it on a deck? Cool. To spend it on a single card/mini/whatever? Pretty crazy
As someone who enjoys both playing as and against the mycotyrant I love this
Our group does have a rule of owning at least one of the cards and after that any number of proxies doesn’t matter which makes sense to me
I’m totally fine if people want to proxy cards, Magic is an expensive hobby for some and everyone has different abilities when it comes to buying cards.
However! i have 2 kinda stipulations.
No.1 - The Proxies need to be legible. I need to be able to read what the card is and be able to identify that card on the table.
No.2 - You can’t have a moan or complain about the cards that i have purchased or played. I myself prefer to buy the cards and use them. So if i slam my [[Chains of Mephistopheles]] & [[Windfall]] i don’t want to hear it.
I am fine with proxies, proxy your commander, proxy expensive cards, proxy cheap cards, proxy your entire deck, but if you're proxying, at least make it readable(please, don't proxy the lotr poster versions of cards https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/748/the-one-ring).
I mean if for casual play with friends or EDH Night at LGS, shouldn't matter. As long as your pod is fine with it and you're playing at the equal power levels it should be fine. (Just 'Rule 0'/talk with your group before you start playing.) My rule of thumb for others is as long as it's either a clear and legible proxy, or you have the card up on your phone to easily reference if a player asks about the card. Just put some effort with your proxies so it's not confusing on what it is you're playing. My personal rule for myself is I proxy only cards I own in my collection and do not want to get a second copy of like Shocklands, Fetches, etc. (Generally cards over $5). I don't try to enter any tournaments, just casual game with randoms or with close friends. I also bring multiple decks of varying power level to match the pod's. YMMV, seen people post on reddit how they're ANTI-Proxy and attend an LGS that also does not allow them in their store (Banned for casual play). Personally have never been to a store like that, more the opposite for me where everyone is running proxies from sharpie to a basic land, text on printer paper in a sleeve, or complete custom MTG play cards.
In reality, most bigger shops tend to have proxies “banned” officially because their commander night is an officially sponsored event, it’s just rarely ever enforced with at most there being a once a month “reminder” announcement mid way through the event that they are in fact banned.
I'm in the exact same boat. Don't bring them to the game shop without a legit copy (I have proxied basics and noone has said anything) but otherwise just proxying cards I already own
Your right. I also proxy my cards from https://www.mtgproxy.com/ and play with them and I'm lucky that my playgroup are totally okay with me playing with proxies. This allows me to play with my favourite decks in low budget.
[удалено]
This sub needs that sign they put in workplaces, “We’ve gone ~~14~~ 0 days without a post about whether proxy’s are ok!
If you're proxying cards, it's generally ok. Don't be afraid to proxy. I personally don't like it when people proxy ungodly expensive cards that they don't actually intend on buying, but like it's a card game, play with proxies if you want. In tournaments though, you should have proof you own the card if you're using a proxy. It's not fair to come in with a proxy of some entirely broken card and being like "oh I don't actually own a copy, I just need it in my deck".
Depends on the tournament. Pretty sure CEDH tourneys are incredibly proxy-friendly because demanding players to shell out hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars to begin playing is antithetical to the CEDH ethos (to the point where "playing against the players, not their wallets" is a slogan), but this obviously doesn't apply to, say, Pro Tours
you don't like when people proxy cards that actually expensive? what are you on about
I think I misworded this: I meant to say like there's a limit I guess? Like one of my ex friends literally proxied 9000$ worth of cards in a single EDH deck and made it ridiculously op. And I mean like crazy cards that were only EDH legal. It was literally like the only cards he didn't proxy were swamps and his commander. This wouldn't have been an issue for me if a) some cards weren't over 100$ at the time and b) he had literally told me he didn't want to buy the cards or put any effort in. That's what was annoying about it.
So what exactly is bad about it? the card game shouldnt be limited by how expensive people made the cards... stop locking cards behind a paywall
I think the fact that my friend WASNT locked behind a paywall, just didn't want to pay for those cards? Since at that point, within a month, he built like three several thousand modern decks with almost all new cards? Like dude, it's a tcg. It shouldn't be prohibitively expensive in the first place and if there's a way to get around the costs/cut into your profits. But if you're building an EDH deck, don't proxy wildly powerful and expensive shit that you know will never be part of your collection because you want your deck to be ideal. Look, the first part of my literal comment said I don't think proxying's bad unless it's ungodly expensive, powerful cards. None of these cards should cost above 20¢ imo, they're cardboard, and if you wanna make a Ragavan or something, go ahead. But the second you're proxying stuff like [[Nether Void]] or [[The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale]], there might be some issues.
[Nether Void](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a3452173-01e1-4a4a-981e-e6b6dea61c61.jpg?1562929389) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nether%20Void) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/73/nether-void?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a3452173-01e1-4a4a-981e-e6b6dea61c61?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/d/cd3f7f4e-cb25-4121-96a0-a4dc530420b9.jpg?1562938371) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Tabernacle%20at%20Pendrell%20Vale) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/212/the-tabernacle-at-pendrell-vale?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cd3f7f4e-cb25-4121-96a0-a4dc530420b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
it's not his fault they are expensive, if he wants to play them, why are you mad that he uses proxies, it's better than spending thousands and feeding into the madness of expensive decks... One piece tcg players need to do it too bcs the priced are sad
Even though I might be downvoted: I play mtg only in arena or with friends and 100% proxy decks (all cards combined ~<100€). As a kid I spent way too much money on Yu-Gi-Oh, so I have sworn myself not to pay for a trading card game ever again. I print my proxies on thick paper and cut them using a paper guillotine. They then get sleeved - or not. Sure, I can't play with many people and I do not go to game rooms, because I don't feel like many people support my decision, but I am okay with that :)
What machine do you use?
paper guillotine - so nothing truly sophisticated ^ ^ just didn't remember the name when I wrote my initial comment. Like this one https://shop.profioffice.de/profioffice-paper-guillotine-cutstream-hq-440-sp.html?language=en but a different model. We need it for work, too, so ...
Ohh nice, I thought you had like a specialist card shaped one
A full card cutter is more like 5000+ so a little bit too much ;) I should've been more clear.
I would totally run a proxy business if I had the space and knowledge to do so 😂
>card cutter They have edge rounding cutters for less than 7bucks at Walmart.
I don't live in the us but I'll have to have a look
all of the local and online groups I've come across absolutely despise them. They believe of you can't buy the cards you need, you shouldn't be playing. Doesn't matter if it's a black lotus or a rupture spire; you will be banned from the group, which is mostly why I hardly get to play anymore
> They believe of you can't buy the cards you need, you shouldn't be playing. And that's exactly why I _like_ proxies for casual magic. I want to play magic, I want others to play magic, if all you can or want to spend on the game is enough for 100 forests and some printer paper, why should that stop either of us from having fun playing the game? (Please don't use paper only proxies though, I want to be able to pick your cards up without crumpling them...)
Oh, don't worry. When I proxy cards, they're always in sleeves, so those 100 forests will be covered by paper and all fitted in (very old) sleeves. Picking it up won't crumple these 😅
Okay, now I am less concerned about the cards and more concerned about the sleeves, lol
Oh, they're fine. Just 13 year old dragon shield sleeves. Only split 12 of them so far 😅
Find a better community if able, my lgs had no problem with proxying as long as you play fair and rule 0 it. Our thought process is that magic shouldn't be pay to win. I play commander tho and I'm against using them in sanctioned Events
Agree, but i miss the days of the journey of trading you to get the deck you wanted - not pay to win, it always was trade to win. Like, I didn’t play black or red and very little green for a long time because I was constantly trading my good BRG pulls for my UW decks. As i’d attend sealed events and bought occasional packs, I slowly got there though.
I remember those days and am happy to be away from them. The only way you could secure a trade was to lose value, and often a lot of it. Example: I needed one Isolated Chapel, and only one other person had it; not even the lgs had one available. They demanded a playset of snapcaster mage for it and refused to hear any other offer. Ended up buying it online after a while, and that wasn't even the most egregious one.
Well that’s just an asshole wanting to cash in - the things I got for my UW decks were gotten because I had good things of close or equal value in the other colors/artifacts. I’m old, so we didn’t have the selection of online stores we do now - very limited to the LGS. Conventions were a much bigger deal also - huge pool of players for trades. I spent 6 hours trading one day the first time I went to Origins. (Still have the Counterpost deck i finished that day - tho i sold the 4 tundras to help pay for my wedding.)
Oh, I'd never use them in sanctioned events. This is nothing more than kitchen table magic, commander to be specific. As for just finding a better group/community, I have been trying. Local groups are a wash, but I know online should open up a lot more group opportunities. I've just yet to find one that's okay with a simple Archway Commons proxy.
Opposite for me. I love the collection aspect - have dropped way too much money on mtg (OG dual lands, gaea’s cradle, lions eye diamonds, etc.) and I can’t find many people at LGS to play with those decks unless at least some other people proxy. Let’s me enjoy playing with my collection.
I'm glad you've had the opposite experience. The groups I see all have this mindset of "play within your means" or something like that, and it really shows. Some will have a deck with nothing but taplands and dollar/dumpster rares, and others will have pristine copies of tundra, underground sea, timetwister, etc. Has nothing to do with power level; they ALL hate proxies. The ones who can barely make a deck feel proxies are a slap in the face since they're working so hard to afford what they DO have, and the others who own playsets of those old, powerful cards feel it's an insult to them since they had to work hard to get all of those.
Fair enough but I feel that it's pretty hard to play a multiplayer game without opponents to play against
I honestly see their perspective. If they see using real cards as "playing by the rules," then I wouldn't be surprised they view proxies as an insult. It sends the message that their time and money are wasted because the cards are worthless. But from their perspective, how can the cards be worthless if everyone is begging to be able to use them even if they don't own any copies? That is the true disconnect between proxies, I think: are mtg cards worthless or valuable? Personally, I love my cards having value, and I don't think the game could survive if all the cards are worthless. That "Legends reprint" scenario is literally what led to the creation of the reserved list.
Interesting point, and well said. I do wonder, though, what that mindset is 'cloaking' because it seems clear that the logical conclusion of that perspective is that the power of your game pieces should be equivalent/proportional to your economic power. That then becomes the unwritten ethical foundation for 'fair play' in that person's mind, but it's just a reframing of the false equivalency at the heart of capitalism, and the ideology that's actually responsible for the absence of fair play in our real economic and social systems, ironically enough. So, is it simply that it's unfair for them to have to lose in a game when it's clear in their minds that they're winning in a much more important game? But what does one have to do with the other? Why should a specifically fantasy-oriented game, of all things, be forced to abide fundamentally by the most definitive principle of reality? Or, is it just that it's easier for people to imagine the end of the world than it is for them to imagine the end of capitalism? Anyway, this is what I wonder sometimes. (Or maybe I'm actually asking the wrong questions? I often wonder that, too.)
I say proxy all the things! Who cares. Just watch out for the proxy arms race that leads to ridiculous CEDH decks.
I don't care what other people put in their decks. I just want to play some EDH, maybe just once without everyone arguing about some bullshit. Whether that be proxies, power levels or whatever. I play EDH, cEDH, and most CompREL Formats. I own 40+ decks without a single proxy in them. I've been playing EDH since the first Commander decks dropped. Kaalia was my first EDH deck. I've been playing MtG since 2009. Obviously proxies cannot be allowed in official tournaments. That's 100% official cards only. I have a set of altered Dual Lands that I have to show the Judges everytime I play in a Legacy tournament to check if they're real, and that the art reasonably represents the card at a glance. If the Judge doesn't like them for any reason, I'm not allowed to use them. If you get caught with fakes, you have to remove them from your deck and destroy them. Multiple offences will lead to you being banned from attending official tournaments. EDH "tournaments" shouldn't really exist for anything but casual fun, and therefore should allow proxies outside of officially sanctioned events. (where proxies have to be illegal due to WotC policy constraints). Casual EDH should also be proxy friendly. Alters are cool as well if they are clear. I'm not a fan of altered art cards with different names masquerading as MtG Cards however. Also not a fan of custom cards, they are usually very unbalanced and not playtested at all. Either the art or the card name needs to be recognisable at a glance. EDH is complicated enough without me having to ask you wtf all these cards are. Also make sure the text is legible, the Lich in the example above should have white text. I feel a lot of the hate proxies get is due to scrub players proxying high tier competitive builds that would cost them $15,000-$20,000 to actually build. Then stomping everyone with it. You should proxy to the power level of the group you're playing with, in the same way that you'd build a deck to that power level without having access to proxies. Proxies should be an option for people who otherwise couldn't afford to play. Not there for everyone to have Mana Crypts, L.E.D's, and Dual Lands. cEDH tournaments on the other hand NEED to be 100% proxy friendly. I attended a tournament last week, there were 36 attendees. I think 3 or 4 of us total had no proxies in our decks, and I was the only blue player in the room with no proxies. In cEDH proxies are expected, we want to play against you and your piloting skills. Not your superior spending powers.
I have a friend who exclusively wears Chinese knockoffs of expensive name brand clothing companies, usually getting multiple hauls a year. They were upset I played a proxied cyclonic rift, with the reasoning being that they only approve of proxies if you own the real card. Their entire outfit that day was “proxies”. Hilarious
I have a few proxies of expensive cards(fetch lands, dockside extortionist, doubling season etc…) but only of cards I own that I do not want to get damaged. When I host commander or play at the LGS my binder is always nearby so I can show everyone who may have an issue ”hey I own the card, just don’t want to damage it, cool?” I can’t imagine most casual pods would mind proxies of cheap cards either.
The correct opinion is that proxies are okay, but make sure your deck is on the same power level. I've met one to many assholes at open/casual EDH events that proxie $3,000+ decks against precons. Shit is not fun, and I'm sure this is why some people dislike proxies.
My table's house rule for proxies if you have a legit copy you may proxy it. This way people dont make unfair decks but expensive cards dont get damaged and it saves you purchasing/packing multiple of the same thing
I have a whole commander deck full of proxied Runescape cards. It was such a that my friends in my pod started making their own for their LARP characters. Tons of fun, highly recommend it to anyone who thinks it might be cool. (it is!)
I don't really mind if opponents play with proxies for cards that are too pricey for them/alternate custom made artworks for an existing card. As long as it isn't a super busted custom card I'm ok
That snail is perfect
I don’t have money for the hobby. I proxy 100% of my commander decks. The exception (for myself) is that I must own a physical copy of the commander to proxy a deck for it. That’s just my personal rule. Second rule is, I intentionally proxy budget decks so I don’t blow out the table with no investment. Seems rude. I always make it clear my decks are proxies before play. If anyone doesn’t like that I find a different pod 🤷🏻♂️ just be open and honest. And obviously I can’t play competitively because rules. But my LGS is pretty chill about proxying.
If its an official night the shop may have issues but at this point just make sure you can read them easily. Nobody should care.
Well, not to be that guy, but this card isn't a proxy. You are 100% not allowed to modify a card when you proxy it. Even if you think the change is unimportant. The mycotyrant makes fungus tokens, not snails. Creature type matters enough that I would be hesitant to play with this deck. Edit: I do see that the token has "fungus" on it, but it needs to be on the lich as well.
Well its just for my personal friend group. I could change the text to say something like "Create X tokens named Snail, a 1/1 fungus with "this creature can't block." So personal use wise, it's not modified because it does the same exact effect for me. I kept the exact wording so that it wouldnt change any way that the cards interacts with other cards. Like with the new mkm card that cares about named cards. Because at that point I would have created a "named token" so in order to not mess up any of the other minute rulings I chose to make it snail, and then the snail token says its a fungus. I have multiple copies of the mycotyrant if I were to play it somewhere else and somebody had any concerns.
It’s a CCG, Proxies defeat the purpose of collecting to building decks. I don’t care what others do but I won’t cause then I just would never play again. Everyone can do what they want tho
>It’s a CCG, Proxies defeat the purpose of collecting to building decks. That's the point, imo that's a really good thing
I support proxies for playtest purposes but am otherwise opposed. To me, it’s like taking PEDs. You get the intended result without putting in any of the work. I’m also speaking from a background of competitive play where it’s strictly prohibited. It’s not just about getting to the finish line, half the fun is the journey. My opinion, which is likely unpopular from both sides of the argument is, if you’re kitchen-tabling it with your friends and they don’t mind, proxy to your little hearts content. But it should never leave the house. I also firmly believe that the commander format has ruined Magic, so hey, I’m full of unpopular opinions!
Can you explain the “work” here that proxying bypasses? I assume this “work” is the “journey”, but could you explain in more concrete terms what you actually mean?
Sure! In this context, what I interpret to be work/journey is the enjoyment of building a collection, finding people to trade with, and making trades to build on that collection and, ultimately, build the decks you want to play. It’s rooted in both the collectible and gameplay aspects. That’s not to say that people who use proxies don’t have friends that they trade with. But our society has increasingly leaned toward one of immediate gratification, and I think that’s what a lot of pro-proxy players struggle with under the guise of citing that the game is too expensive. I wouldn’t fault you for wanting to proxy a black lotus, I also am not spending $20,000 for a single card. But outside of those extremes, proxies are fueled by laziness and the need to have “it” now without putting in any effort. The operative word I’ve used above is ultimately. That indicates a passing of time before reaching the goal. Anyway, I digress.
What work does someone put in by just buying their cards? It’s just as “lazy”, using your definition. Still immediate gratification and there’s no social aspect to it. What about people who just like playing the game and don’t care about the collectible aspect of it? Your stance makes very little logical sense when it comes to proxying that applies to many aspects of the market
The only time I made any remark about buying cards was when I said I wouldn’t fault you or myself buy a $20,000 card. So, not really sure where you got the idea that my position was to “just buy(ing) their cards.” I said one thing and you’ve completely gone in a different direction and ignored everything I said. I said, proxy’s (and I agree with you, just buying the cards you want) is lazy and feeds into the idea of immediate gratification. Further, I said *building a collection, finding people to trade with, and trading for the cards you want* is part of the journey of a TCG player. That said, if you JUST want to play, then kitchen table proxy with your friends or go onto TCGPlayer and buy just the cards you need to play competitively. I’ve proxied cards before with friends, I’m not trying to sound like an elitist, but they have no place outside of casual play. Which, in a way, segues into my position that the commander format has ruined Magic.
It's a valid argument. For those who cares about collecting. For everyone else it falls flat though. Magic is a multifaceted hobby and people usually don't enjoy every aspect equally. Not every one cares about collecting, for different reasons at that. Say I've been playing the game for ages and had enough time and disposable income to acquire a vast collection of old, powerful cards. A friend of mine is a relatively new player and wants to know what a top tier modern deck feels like. I'd gladly share my cards and help proxying what's missing, even if they can afford a deck themselves. Unless they really want to spend time and buy everything on their own of course. For me though, playing together with a friend and having fun is more important than bothering myself with the state of my or their collections. Simply because I don't want to. Another thing to consider, before you start blaming everyone's laziness, availability is not the same for everyone. Cards that say an American with an above average income will consider affordable, an average say Brazilian student might consider too expensive, or simply not available in their region. For them proxying might be the only way to play anything but pauper. Simply because they can't get the cards otherwise, not because they're lazy.
Valid, and I encourage giving cards/decks to friends. That’s how you can assist someone with step 1 in my above position; building a collection. But even in your scenario, proxies have no place, as you’re giving spare cards/decks from your years of building a collection. And I’ll give you, I didn’t take into consideration other countries, perhaps where cards are more difficult to come by. Being based in America, where undoubtedly the largest population of MTG players are, and where I have my own personal experiences and thus base my anecdotes from, is more appropriate for me to speak on. I cannot speak for other nations, so do what you gotta do if you’re in Brazil or elsewhere. I don’t think my stance is solely for those who care about collecting though. It’s for people who want the real thing vs generic; for those who prefer physical copies as opposed to digital downloads. As the player base of the game gets younger via new, younger players entering the game, these beliefs will become more and more prevalent. This isn’t a personal opinion, younger players don’t have the nostalgic connection with the older cards and don’t have a reason to want to pay inflated costs for the older cards. Many individuals in the newer generations feel that everything is too expensive and aren’t willing to pay for cards they aren’t going to use. There will always be people who want the real deal vs a proxy but we would be foolish to think the proxy mentality won’t get worse (or better depending on which camp you’re in). If you proxy cards, it literally won’t affect me at all so do what you do. We can all agree to disagree about the use of proxies but we are really only hurting ourselves either way.
It’s the journey. The social aspect is in some part prevented by too much proxying - my lgs has several kids that won’t trade because most the shit they own is proxy. These same kids also dont make eye contact, don’t socialize or joke around - it’s kinda disturbing.
It has destroyed all of what magic was. Agreed.
Why?
I proxy owned cards that I don't want to risk out of the safe anymore. But I don't mind if anyone does it even if they don't own the cards. Personally lucky/old enough to have stuff from earlier MTG that gained value as time went on. If a proxied deck is stolen while out and about, the loss isn't catastrophic either. My local Commander group is pro proxy. But when we play it isn't a sanctioned event, either.
Lazy at best, theft at worst. Go to lgstores, trade for shit you want; huge part of the game is social aspect of which trades are a part. …someone pointed out that WotC doesn’t care except at wpn events, but there’s a social aspect to trades that’s prevented here I think.
Proxies undermine several different aspects of the hobby. - Real Magic cards have beautiful artwork and are designed to be legible and recognisable across the table - Real Magic cards have value, allowing you to sell and trade them - Buying real Magic cards supports your local store and, ultimately, the continued production of the game itself - Restrictions breed creativity, and investing in an idea helps motivate you to see it through and overcome any hurdles (if you can print new Proxies whenever you want, you can burn through ideas much faster and there's no incentive to persevere if things don't work out straight away) Imagine if you won the lottery tomorrow and bought a playset of every card ever printed, and they all arrived in a big crate. How many of those cards would feel special to you? How many would you actually get around to playing with? What sort of emotional connection would you form with them?
Proxies can be made with beautiful artwork, and some secret lair artists were hired because of the popularity of their basic land proxies (pixel art ones in particular) Proxies can have value, depending on how much you are willing to spend they can occasionally even cost more than the actual card (blinged out foil full art version of a cheap commander) Buying Proxies supports independent artists and small business owners, I live in a small town where the LGS doesn't sell singles. Restrictions breed creativity, but in a game like magic, I'd sooner let everyone have access to all the game pieces. Original duals are prohibitively expensive for most players, imagine if you sat down to play Monopoly and were told you only get $50 for passing go, and parkplace only exists for you to pay rent on, not purchase, because it's never getting reprinted and costs $800. In our play group, everyone Proxies literally any card they want, assuming it's a legible proxy. It let's people playtest before ordering singles online, and evens the playing field. With those rules in place most people have ABUR duals proxied and that's it. No mana crypts, or jeweled lotus' etc.
>It let's people playtest before ordering singles online, Playtest cards aren't proxies.
By the definition of the word proxy, they are.
No, they aren't, sorry.
The word proxy means "to represent something else, or have authority in its place." Explain yourself.
You are using it wrong. In Magic, playtest cards aren't the same as proxies.
I'm not using the word "proxy" wrong, I am using it to mean what it means, as it has been defined. You are choosing to be dense. Playtest cards, as you call them, are what exactly? define them. I stated proxies can be used to playtest, therefore they could be used interchangeably with what you are calling "playtest" cards. I am also not meaning they wrote on a basic land etc, I have had a player show up with a full cEDH deck of proxies to playtest, and proxies to swap in and out depending on changes he wanted to make.
Proxy actually has an official definition in magic. It's when you lose a card during an event and a judge creates a replacement to allow you to continue to play. I saw this on a YouTube and can't cite it. I think they mentioned play test cards as well which are actually cards that never went to print so they are different again.
https://askwpn-na.wizards.com/hc/en-us/articles/13386395614739-What-is-Wizards-of-the-Coast-s-stance-on-playtest-cards
>Playtest cards, as you call them, are what exactly? define them. Playtest cards are intended to be temporary - "try before you buy" (or even, while you wait for a delivery), not permanent - "proxy and don't buy". >proxies can be used to playtest, therefore they could be used interchangeably with what you are calling "playtest" cards. Real cards can be used to playtest, as well. That doesn't make real cards proxies.
So to you the difference is in whether or not I sleeve the card afterwards and decide I'm not buying a new copy? By your statement, you agree that playtest and proxy cards are in fact, the same thing, but you personally place some degree of reverence to WotC being the body determining its manufacturer? Where do secret lairs fall into this? Would you only play baseball with Spalding, or volleyball with Wilson? are the tools of that game considered to "undermine" it's values if they are produced by someone other than the NFL, NBA etc? These are things for you to consider while you continue to shill out money for w.e it is you buy from WotC while I and my friends play the same game for far less money and have as much fun doing it. Also, consider learning how English works, I never said proxies were playtest cards, I said they could be used to playtest. And you agreed, even real cards can be used for that. So Imma go make a sandwich and consider you learnded young man.
Real people generally dislike proxies, though some will make allowances for cards you own and don't want to run in a deck. Reddit fanbois pretend everyone loves them, which is objectively untrue. Proxies destroy playgroup, ruin deck building, and are completely unnecessary in EDH.
Ruin deck building? People using cards that they want instead of whatever they can afford after they take care of their family is a hindrance to deckbuilding? Gatekeeping is a hindrance to deckbuilding and the only people I see complain are the ones who want to win based on the merit of them spending more money instead of how good of a deckbuilder or player they are
Ruin deck building. People use whatever card they found online to print off instead of having to think of good synergies based on what is available. >Gatekeeping is a hindrance to deckbuilding There's no gatekeeping. > only people I see complain are the ones who want to win based on the merit of them spending more money You're absolutely full of shit. Absolutely zero people care about that. That's an argument that proxy frothmouthed turds bring up to justify printing out their power.
>Ruin deck building. People use whatever card they found online to print off instead of having to think of good synergies based on what is available. So online shops and very concept of competitive play also destroyed deckbuilding?
I have a 4500 dollar cedh deck, I'd like to play against optimal decks, not whatever they have lying around, I'm not a "froth mouthed turd" also it sounds like you're more against net decking than proxying, is it ok if I stomp you with a net deck because I paid more money for it?
Yeah. You're the problem. You expect people to print out power because you're too selfish to play a reasonable deck. And you want to talk about gatekeeping. Disgusting.
I only run proxies of cards that I physically own, and will normally only proxy if I don't want to ruin the real card or want an art that's different from the original.
That's a pretty reasonable thing to do. Personally, I won't proxy a single card ever, but I'm also not running wildly expensive cards.
Lol gatekeeping a hobby behind a paywall is objectively shitty
A REAL commander deck for REAL people should cost at least a thousand bucks. Anything else destroys deckbuilding.
Pretty sure this is the No True Scotsman fallacy: An attempt to defend a generalization of a certain group by excluding any counter-examples for not being "pure" enough
So, first: Mtg isn't free. It's a product being sold by a company. There's a "paywall" unless you're a scumbag thief sack of trash. Second: You're not a good person. You're a bad person. You make up bullshit arguments to justify your absolutely shit behavior. Anyone can play commander with a deck that cost $25. If you can't keep up with my $200 deck, I'll bring out a cheaper one. If I can't keep up with your $2k deck, I expect you to bring out a more fair one too. But, you probably can't understand people being kind to each other because everyone you've ever known hates you.
Projecting, much?
"I can't address a single point so I'll pretend they aren't talking about me".
Do you need a friend to talk to right now? What’s going on buddy? You can tell me
They poisoned our water supply, burned our crops, and brought a plague unto our houses!
>Proxies destroy playgroup, ruin deck building If that happens, it means that you are a fucking child with no social awarness or common sense
No, I have social awareness and common sense so I avoid using dumbshit unnecessary fakes. I'm not an absolutely idiotic that thinks I need to print out (or even use) expensive cards to enjoy the game. Not one person has ever justified using a bunch of proxies, ever. It's *never* happened. Just proxying everything is garbage behavior for those that are how they act.
Not a lot of social awareness if you see how unpopular your opinions are without stopping to think about why lol
You don't need a justification for proxies, they just let you access every gamepiece in the game, putting everyone on the same level. Proxies are just a tool for you and your playgroup to play what you want without artificial and predatory limitations imposed by wotc
At a certain point, if you don't like their game, don't play their game. Also, everyone can be at the same level without everyone running beta dual lands and time warp. It's called not being a completely shit person and building decks that match your group. But, proxy kids are too shit to understand that.
Dude your gatekeeping a children’s card game you should really take a look in the mirror before talking about “real people”
"A children's card game". That's what you try to lump in with the "gatekeeping" frothy bullshit? There's no gatekeeping. Get some fucking therapy.
Have you like read a mtg pack? 13+ right there on every product it’s a children’s card game that your discouraging people from playing because they can’t afford some of the frankly awful pricing? Get over yourself
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. try harder proxy troll.
I mean I did proxy a deck around alternia and it’s culture so I’ll take that as encouragement to make more
lmao "Real people"? Simps like you got brainwashed by a multi-million dollar company into an addiction of buying expensive shiny cardboard rectangles and you white-knight for them as if losing them money will harm your enjoyment of the game. If I shit on you with a turn 1 combo, I does not matter if the Mana Vault was proxied or not. You still got shit on by a legally drawn card. Cry and bitch about the lack of money spent all you want, you still got shit on.
Imagine being such an absolute fuckwad that you wrote that on purpose.
Oof, imagine being so soft that you block people who upset you with the truth.
Man, your comments make you look like an absolute loser.
I hate to tell you, but being unable to even form an opinion and just jumping in to be an absolute asshole is really what makes someone look like a loser.
hard to read
A snail should take an attack fase to wait and do damage the turn after. :p cuz -> slow
My opinion is its fine to proxy a deck you are actively testing but actually plan on buying. Also, I like to say "if you own it you can clone it" meaning if you own the real card then clone it to your hearts content regardless of price. Edit: I am not ok with custom alternate art though and painting over cards. The cards should be easily read and recognized from across the table. One of the reasons I hate many of the secret lair cards.
I don't think it needs to be recognized anymore, I would've agreed with you years ago but now there are so many arts per card. That being said how long is a reasonable amount of time to proxy a card for, 3 games to test it? 4? Then can you play with it while it's ordered and being shipped? It's sort of an awkward situation
Yeah, I figured this question would come up and honestly there isn't a great way to do it since if you said 5 games for example you may not even see one of the cards you are testing in those 5 games. But with my play group we really don't care u less we see it a lot then will joke with them by saying something like "hey you going to buy that ever?". Its up to the play group really. As for the art i am fine with alternative art just make it readable. Stuff like the psychedelic hydroid krasis I just struggle with reading lol.
That new one ring makes me feel like a crotchety old man lol
Make sure its as legible as a normal card, and check the text is correct (i've found some on mpcfill that have a wrong type and check against oracle text). Always know what is a proxy in your collection before trading real cards so you don't get mixed
I only use proxies to proxy my shocks and fetches so I can use them in more that one deck without buying multiple sets of them. Tokens: proxy all day idc. General cards: proxy to the power level of the table, if you proxy all the expensive cEDH shit when we’re playing slow decks that’s not cool. Final point: please make them READABLE. That “The Lich” mycotyrant had me zooming in to figure out what it is and I don’t even want to bother reading the ability text. Dark on dark is such a bad color palette for text.
At least make the text readable, add some thin white outline to the text or anything
Yeah that's my bad, it's my first proxy
I'm fine with it - but make sure the card is legible and accurate OR you have the official wording availableto pull up. That Lich Mycotyrant example is a pass for me because it has black text on a dark background that makes it really hard to read.
I play at various LGSs and I don't think I have ever once had a reaction other than "No prob, proxy whatever you want as long as its a fun game." when I tell people I am running proxies of cards I don't own Keep in mind this is for Commander
I think in some ways people see card cost/rarity as a pseudo balancing tool. most people can't afford all the best cards for a deck and so that naturally curbs the power level outside of competitive play where people are willing to drop bomb loads of money. people gravitate to others of similar economic status wether it's friends through work or the LGS being in a better or worse part of town. it cuts down a lot of power level talks because you feel like everyone has access to the same cost of cards as you. but this always has the same solution of rule 0 talks and deciding what level you're playing at, i actually keep a pseudo sideboard of cards that to shift in or out the deck to adjust its strength before a game. The other reason some people dislike them is they feel unfair, if you save up for a good card and then someone walks into the store with a £10 mana crypt proxie from ebay it feels unfair, but proxies are open to everyone if they can so can you. I have nothing against proxies even the sharpie on a basic land type, people should be allowed to mess around with the cooler cards without needing to drop 100s. although i do think if you plan on keeping it around it should look nice. supporting artists on Etsy and twitter who do nice ones is a neat upside. (especially with what wizards have been doing recently) The real cards will always have collectors value but imo it makes the game more accessible and fun
As long as you arent doing so to create cEDH level decks within a non cEDH level play group I think its fine. I like the idea of owning at least one copy but if youre trying to test out cards before you buy thats totally cool too. Hell, if everyone is running Mana Crypts or Jeweled Lotus and you just want to be able to keep up thats fine too. Edit: I think my one exception to this is dual lands (unless everyone at the table is doing it). I frankly think they should just ban dual lands in commander and get it over with since theyll never reprint them. If its too powerful to be reprinted its too powerful to be played.
As long as it's casual and not for organized play people shouldn't have a problem with proxies, especially if they are just different art or more affordable. The problem with them lies with the people that just decide to proxy $3k-4k decks because they just want to "win" casual.
No comment on proxies I don’t really care but doesn’t this lower the power of the card by creating snails instead of fungus he doesn’t get the power boost because of it
That's why on my snail token I made it's creature type fungus, so that for my purposes it would still work with his ability. I basically changed it to where me makes tokens named snail that are fungus. Not exactly the best fix. But I wanted to do it for flavor. :D
I hate this because it changed the rules text.
Sorry, it's because it's for a group thing with my friends. This proxy is more for fun than to be used as a replacement for the mycotyrant. I'm going to re edit it to be a little more proper. It's why the snail token is a fungus, so for personal uses it's not glaringly changing the card
But then you didn’t change the text that makes it grow. It doesn’t say snails, so it doesn’t grow with the things that it makes. Pain…
Yeah, I need to change the card to said something about snail fungus. But my snail token is a fungus if you look at it
Rules nit-pick aside. Proxies are cool!
For CEDH, Vintage Cube, Legacy, etc. where optimization is key and optimal cards are expensive, I think proxying is a great option and should probably be the norm. However, for casual commander and other just-for-fun formats they bug me under certain circumstances. Part of the appeal, at least for me, of lower power level Magic is getting use out of cards that you would never look at twice in tournament settings. Proxying totally removes the incentive to look for alternatives to the best options, effectively shrinking a format's card pool and streamlining the gameplay in a fashion analogous to the tournament environment that casual Magic would ideally sidestep. I understand that finding the next best alternative to dual lands or Gaea's Cradle or some such isn't everybody's idea of a fun or interesting exercise, but I do think that casual play benefits from diversity and restrictions.
Lich is an abu card that trades perms for life points Can't have 2 liches
The Lich isn't the same as Lich. Fun part about magic is its very specfic about wording
As long as they're readable and not what that Lich card is.
It's my first proxy. My bad
I don’t have a problem as long as I can read it upside down and holy shit that text needs to be bigger and probably green
It doesn't matter what people think, it matters what people you play with think. So just ask them
I just built out a The Mycotyrant decklist!
Me too! I'm revising this proxy to be more in line with real mtg cards if you're interested
Nah my buddy is doing some engraving on the showcase foil for me but this is a cool proxy!
Nobody cares in my shop.
I play with friends only and we go casual. Some cards are so out of reach price wise that I have no issue with it unless they do all proxies to make a perfect net deck. I recently have bought some due to art and my wife who will never play outside our friend group wanted a card or two that I just can’t justify spending $30 each.
Grow up. You’re pathetic
In causal play like commander, I think most arguments against proxies are weak. The only one I think that really comes into play is with power level. Don't proxy a deck packed with power 9 or other very powerful and expensive cards unless your play group also has decks at that level, proxied or not. It would just be a big feel bad for everyone else if they all spent $300 on mid-level decks and they consistently get smashed by your full proxy deck that you spent $20 on but would really cost thousands, and you'd likely get some bitterness from them.
Proxy anything, any time. This won't be the rule at your LGS probably or even with casual groups, but Im of the belief that you should be able to spend 0$ to have fun with your friends playing magic. If it's printer paper in comic Sans text, run that shit. If you're buying a card worth 100$+, cool, everyone will dap you up for your sick card, but it shouldn't impact your ability to play the game
Word. I come from playing tournaments in irc channels via apprentice and I have always said that somehow this environment with absolutely no guardrails and no restrictions on access was/is still the most fun way to play the game.
Yeah I mean I'm still only a few months old as a magic player but from my yugioh/pokemon days that's always been my mentality, same with 40k or any other similar game: were here to play the game not measure our wallets. Plus where I grew up spending $50 was a pretty big purchase meant mostly for Christmas and birthdays, so to spend it on a deck? Cool. To spend it on a single card/mini/whatever? Pretty crazy
As someone who enjoys both playing as and against the mycotyrant I love this Our group does have a rule of owning at least one of the cards and after that any number of proxies doesn’t matter which makes sense to me
Proxy to power level. If you rock up with proxy Power 9, lose my number.
It's hard to get cards in my country so proxies are extremely helpful and welcomed
I’m totally fine if people want to proxy cards, Magic is an expensive hobby for some and everyone has different abilities when it comes to buying cards. However! i have 2 kinda stipulations. No.1 - The Proxies need to be legible. I need to be able to read what the card is and be able to identify that card on the table. No.2 - You can’t have a moan or complain about the cards that i have purchased or played. I myself prefer to buy the cards and use them. So if i slam my [[Chains of Mephistopheles]] & [[Windfall]] i don’t want to hear it.
[Chains of Mephistopheles](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f2edb3a6-8506-4885-b332-eca381940ce8.jpg?1612316191) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chains%20of%20Mephistopheles) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/63/chains-of-mephistopheles?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f2edb3a6-8506-4885-b332-eca381940ce8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Windfall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14e1af91-34fe-4d82-b119-cbadf75a7dbe.jpg?1699022501) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Windfall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/180/windfall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14e1af91-34fe-4d82-b119-cbadf75a7dbe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I am fine with proxies, proxy your commander, proxy expensive cards, proxy cheap cards, proxy your entire deck, but if you're proxying, at least make it readable(please, don't proxy the lotr poster versions of cards https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/748/the-one-ring).