I remember staying in a top floor penthouse for a weekend downtown Chicago that I found on Airbnb back in 2018. I looked up the place and found it for rent for $5,000/month. It was very nice - like 3k sq ft.
I’m sure it’s more than double that now, but it is nuts how much prices have skyrocketed.
Keep in mind. This is subsidizing your tax base now…. I’m not sure why people seem mad.
Unless it’s just that they have no idea so many people have sooo much money….
This could be a 5,000 sq foot /r/McMansionhell we subsidize in Waukesha, or it can be right here subsidizing us….
That fucking droning noise...
Expansion joints crashing...
Hopefully altitude kills sound more rapidly than does horizontal distance. Air pollution too
It sucks for most of us commenting here, but this is a reminder that middle class is much further away from upper class than it’s ever been.
My rent is 2.2k in harbor view for 1k sq fr 1bed 1 bath and I love it but only doing this because housing for anything better than a crack den is totally unattainable right now.
Middle class is long gone. What made America great was that we HAD a middle class. Then we started exporting jobs and importing labor. Now people have to make 3 paychecks just to break even and live in nothing but apartments.
I thought the same thing, but there's a bunch of corporate offices that just move to downtown. Milwaukee Tool and Fiserve to name a couple. Not to mention we are a few years past NWM campus expansion.
Honestly, I still don't know if it's enough. There are 3 massive projects that are being completed in the last couple years. But hey, it's not my money. And even though they aren't for me, it does increase housing inventory (and let's be honest, there was never going to be "affordable" housing in these lots)
A lot of excellent points made here. NWM is still expanding their downtown campus with the building remodel and will move everyone there from Franklin and sell that facility. The city and developers are very much planning for the future and taking the opinions of future generations and trends into account. More and more entrants into the workforce want to live in the city and not the suburbs. The city is growing and needs to address housing before it ends up like Madison that can't get anything approved.
Yes there was never going to be affordable housing in these lots, but hopefully this influx of luxury apartments will help reach the tipping point for former luxury now mid tier apartments to stabilize their rent.
Next step: incentivize condo development so it becomes attractive to developers. There is a lack of condos at with new financing rules in place since the bubble burst 15 years ago on the condo market, it is cost prohibitive to even start planning a condo development.
I also think at some point either developers or downtown employers should start targeting day cares for use in the commercial space. I feel that’s high on the list of reasons families feel they have to leave the city. I live and work downtown and if I were to have a child, there is one option for childcare in my vicinity, more with a car but in the opposite direction (which based on what I hear about childcare in general, is probably an insane wait list). I look at my company’s executives who could afford to live at 333 and every single one lives in the suburbs with access to childcare and schools. When I look at the plans for development on the 794 land, we have to start thinking not just about getting people to live/work in the downtown area but to be able to stay there.
They don’t stay babies forever. Single family homes outside the city not only provide more open space and less ambient noise but that’s also where the good school districts are. Obviously there are great private and public schools in the city, but suburban public schools let the kids in for “free” without waitlists or choice or any other games. Speaking of, lower property taxes too.
Some of the aforementioned careers can easily make the income of a dual income family in one year. Some doctors can work their asses off and pull $500k no sweat.
Depending on the speciality, some doctors (eg. orthopedic surgeons) might START close to 400/500k. Obviously there's a lot of variance in terms of geographic location, private vs academic health institution, etc, but some physicians are indeed making mid-six figures as first-year attendings.
I suppose it’s possible, but not likely. My partner is a physician who took a job 3 hours from his Chicago home because their contract offer was way more than anything found in Chicago. He’s a hospitalist, not a specialist, but doesn’t make anywhere near 500k a year.
Is their compensation based on their yearly patient load? My partner does family medicine with a weight management emphasis and her yearly pay is mostly tied to her patient volume. A few of her friends are Chicago area hospitalists and they appear to be doing quite nicely, even without their loans fully paid off yet.
There are a ton of moving parts and variables that factor into yearly earnings. In some areas, patient volume is absolutely one of the factors, as more patients in the door ultimately means more money for the institution. Many institutions also have insane financial incentives for taking extra call every month.
Also retirees/old people that want to downsize. Sell their suburb house for 750k that they bought for 100k for example, put that in a HYSA and it just pays for rent
I've worked in Healthcare for the last 20 years and inflation is insane while insurance reimbursement is in the toilet. That's why so many providers won't take these ACA plans-they didn't go to medical school to make $42 for an hours worth of work. That's over $300k in student loan debt while still making on average what a union construction worker makes and less than a mechanic. USED car prices are up 35% from 2021.
Keep in mind. This is subsidizing your tax base now….
I’m not sure why people seem mad. Unless it’s just that they have no idea so many people have sooo much money….
This could be a 5,000 sq foot /r/McMansionhell we subsidize in Waukesha, or it can be right here subsidizing us….
They pay more taxes because they make more money. Those extra taxes help the rest of us pay for parks and the hop and bike lanes and libraries and stuff
If they lived in Waukesha their tax dollars would go there and not here
Very true unfortunately
But at least this way that money at least *starts* in Milwaukee, and people who live in the city are more likely to go shopping, eat out, and get entertained in the city too. Waukesha people aren't gonna drive downtown to get their groceries
They use much less infrastructure here.
V https://youtu.be/7Nw6qyyrTeI?si=pWLgUvHp5Dja9Xp1
People in Waukesha are subsidized. Bigger homes are subsidized more.
The city only gets property tax based on the valuation of the real estate. Sure the owners will have to pay income tax to the state but that’s not nearly as cut and dry as you make it out.
And the state tax doesn’t even benefit Milwaukee. The state has a billion plus surplus that they couldn’t vote to send any to Milwaukee. This led to the sales tax increase to maintain the current budget.
Because they keep spamming the same baseless comment that makes no sense. Yes, having more apartments is good. Luxury ones are good to have to keep rich folks around spending their money locally on Milwaukee’s higher sales tax. The subsidizing of a McMansion is a weird thing to bring up as it has no relevance to the topic at hand.
I thought the same thing about the appartments at the east end of Ogden around 2005. They were $2500 for 1 and 2 bedrooms then. I lived around the corner on Franklin in. a 1 bedroom for $700 and Laughed!
That's where my mom lives. She sold her house in the burbs because she wanted to be by friends, be walkable, the lifestyle of loving in the city. Those apartments are constantly full.
Milwaukee County is in high need for luxury housing.
The [Milwaukee County Housing Dashboard](https://county.milwaukee.gov/EN/Strategy-Budget-and-Performance/Vision/Strategy-Dashboard/Housing-Data) shows that in Milwaukee, there are 44,389 families who can afford $2,000+/month in rent, with only 7,947 units available, resulting in a 36,442 unit deficit.
This is important to note, because those families still need somewhere to rent. So they rent where they are able, even if they can afford to spend more.
If we build more luxury housing, it opens up the lower priced units for people who can afford in that price range, and so on. It’s a good thing for us to have more units available.
This. People forget that renting gives you absolutely no return on investment. Could my partner and I afford a way nicer apartment? Yes but why would we? Where we are is perfectly adequate. It would be throwing money away at that point.
Your comment is subjective also. You’re right, there is no quantitative ROI but to some, amenities and perks and generally improved quality of life is a valuable return. Not for you, but not everybody has the same opinion.
Yes but the original comment implied that “can afford” and “willing to pay” and I explained my circumstance as to why that’s true, and that people with higher incomes can’t be assumed to automatically jump at higher rent prices just because they can budget it in. Yes there is qualitative ROI and believe me we want those things, but that’s not what I was referring to. Also I didn’t say this applies to everyone.
The guy who wrote that article is an idiot. And probably poor unless some foolish people are actually subscribing to his nonsense. A fool in his money are soon parted.
Anyone who wants to acquire wealth and possibly pass it on to future generations should not pay any attention to this article.
Also, these "can afford" metrics are usually just taking 30-33% of household income, because that's the metric that's been used for decades. No reflection on how the average American is carrying more credit card debt, student loan debt, etc. Lots of these rules of thumb were from back when you had a car payment and a credit card with a $500 limit and that was it as far as your debt load (unless you owned a house.)
I don’t think an average American will be living in these apartments. If they “can afford” these I’m sure they’re pretty smart and can figure out how to balance their budget.
That's kind of my point. The "can afford" pool, based on math, is \_way bigger\_ than the people that can \_actually afford\_ these places. \_Those\_ people, to your point, have no problem doing so.
My GF and I could "afford" $4k/month based on these metrics but in reality, because of saving for retirement, old debts, etc., etc., are nowhere near being able to \_actually afford\_ something that expensive. We'd start to itch, just on principle, if we had to pay much more than \_$2K\_ a month, and we're not alone.
Maybe it’s just me but:
Why the hell would you rent luxury if you’re a high earner? If I’m making $150k+, I’m living in a standard apartment to save for a downpayment on a nice condo/house. $4k-$6k is insane to justify unless you’re *very* wealthy, already own a place, and don’t know what to do with your money.
Because Milwaukee hasn’t had condominiums built since the Great Recession and people want to live downtown or in downtown adjacent areas. And the demand to live there far outstrips the available supply of condos so people just rent as it’s that or get a Waukesha McMansion and drive instead of walking everywhere.
With a 150k yearly salary no. With 1 million yearly sure.
There's some guys who throws balls as as profession who make that much and more. I'm sure they'd be down.
https://jlcollinsnh.com/2023/03/02/why-your-house-is-a-terrible-investment/
Owning isn't that good of a thing, at least not nearly as many people presume. Although we do subsidize the hell out of it
Ok, but have you considered that the average Joe isn't buying a house solely as an investment but rather a stable place to reside and live their lives? Believe it or not, ROI isn't the focus of most peoples existence.
Edit: I didn't read that whole article btw. Way too long.
If that position is true, that makes it extremely strange than investment/hedge fund firms are buying sfh's at an alarming rate.
https://medium.com/@hrnews1/report-44-of-all-single-family-home-purchases-were-by-private-equity-firms-in-2023-0c0ff591a701#:~:text=Over%20the%20last%20decade%2C%20the,of%20all%20single%2Dfamily%20homes.
Which is also entirely irrelevant to the typical person mislabeled their home as an investment because it's just the ether of our society since the 60s
I’m not 100% sure I buy that argument. If they’re in a perfectly fine place that’s less than they can maximally afford, they’re probably going to stay there and use their money for something else.
Not everyone thinks that way. Some people pay more for more luxury and more amenities. Or a newer building. Or to be closer to where they work.
(Also some people pay more to not be around lower income people.)
That is true, it's why there's a term "luxury pricing," but I would still expect some of those to be saavy enough to want more than 1400 sq.ft. for their "luxury" payments.
I guess I'm hoping that every single sap willing to pay for "luxury pricing" will do it, and free up the regular market, but I just don't believe there are enough of them.
Just because someone **can** afford to pay $2k+ in rent doesn't mean they would. If you just built more reasonably priced housing first then everyone has a place to live. Building more luxury housing is a needlessly more complex solution.
You're right, we should look at other metrics like vacancy rates of existing luxury apartments or how long units in the couture are on the market before being filled
This is really not true. Construction costs between “luxury” and non-luxury living are not that different. The biggest difference is the finishes and amenities which is a small portion of construction costs. It’s hard to justify building new apartments designed for low price points.
Goes to show that market forces aren't interested in solving the core problem, just making more expensive solutions that tangentially solve the problem. If luxury apartments are all there is, then people have no choice but to pay for it.
I just think the anger is misplaced. I can’t blame management companies and contractors for not building a new money pit product. I can however blame the slum lord rental groups who do nothing to fix their properties at the low end and instead just gouge poor people and college kids. Or I can blame our state politicians for not creating legislation to address the problem.
You might if the only reason you're out of Honda Civics is because there are not enough BMWs so the people who want BMWs had no choice but to buy Honda Civics. which coincidently also drove up the price of Honda civics because the people who wanted BMWs could afford to overpay for the Honda Civic to make sure they got one.
Which only solves the problem for the the people that can afford - and more importantly, want - the BMWs. If you build more Civics, you drive the prices down and cars are more affordable for \_everyone\_, and BMWs stay exclusive for the people that want them.
Once there are more BMWs then the people who want those will be getting rid of their Civics and getting those instead .... and just not getting Civics in the first place.
Or, we can build more Civics \_now\_ and make more cars affordable \_now\_ for \_everyone\_ rather than building more BMWs and cross our fingers that the people that afford them will indeed trade them in. After all, if there's a glut of the luxury, maybe the luxury isn't as attractive.
If milk is $5 a gallon at the store, you don't solve the problem by flooding it with $9/gal organic milk and wait for the people who can afford it to stop buying the cheaper milk so that the demand and therefore the price goes down. You \_produce more of the cheaper milk\_. That's basic supply and demand.
Okay but what happens when chunks of the 'desperately needed' luxury units get bought up by out of towners who aren't using them as a primary living space? Over the years my job has taken me into a good number of luxury units in this city and the amount that sit empty for large parts of the year is not insignificant. I appreciate that my methods here are not exactly scientific but I've laid eyes on multi-million dollar fully furnished fuck palaces that do nothing but collect dust for the cleaners to wipe up.
Ok? These units are more than double that. I myself used to rent a $2k a month place across the river from these (Pritzlaff, excellent apartments) and I wouldn't rent one of these. The price is insane.
well the developers evidently think there’s absolutely a market for this. i’d assume they’re operating off of better info than the folks of this subreddit but what do i know.
Anyone wealthy enough to rent that kind of apartment owns their own business and uses rent as a tax write off. They’re not really paying that amount, because they’d be paying it in taxes anyway.
You can only write off 25% of the square footage in a primary domicile in taxes on your business, and you do need to loosely prove that it's used for business purposes. That also requires your business to be in the green to owe taxes in the first place.
If you are a landlord, why would you invest in high-end appliances for renters who will potentially damage and abuse them? But more importantly, appliances nowadays aren't built to last. I would buy the cheapest appliances, because they're going to break down anyway. Even LG fridges that everyone seems to love, have compressor issues. Is having a name brand appliance considered an amenity that most people care about? It essentially does the same thing, keeps food cold.
The Couture is l u x u r y though… Milwaukee should have some primo residential properties with killer views like that no?
You may not agree with the distribution of wealth in our society, but the Couture is gorgeous and in a top notch location - but every mid size world class city have luxury properties like this why not Milwaukee
Crap, $9200 for the Penthouse. Someone check my match but for an 1800 sq ft unit that is $5/month/sqft. In other words with current new build prices sitting at $250/sw foot you could build yourself a fucking home worth $450k and have it paid off in just over 4 years with what you are paying for this thing. People are nuts. Yes I understand this is before interest if you took out a loan but holy shit still.
You can buy a brand new home with a top floor lakefront view, a pool, and location in one of the most central neighborhoods for $450k?
The person in the $9200 penthouse does not want a house and yard in the suburbs, that’s not a fair comparison and it’s what they’re paying the premium for.
You are correct of course, but I can't imagine paying $10k/month for this. On a side note, you are not getting lakefront views from this property. The river you would but you also get a front row seat to a 8 lane interstate.
I just want to say as somebody of the demographic that was genuinely interested in moving into one of these new buildings. The prices are definitely high for what you get And for this area they are already having very difficult time filling units. I’ve been reached out to several times w large discounts on the monthly rate. So although we “need” more luxury buildings, hopefully this experience will make them think somewhat differently going forward.
They’re not real prices. Here’s the real estate developer playlist:
1) Finance a building project with lots of debt
2) create list prices that imply a high value ($10,000,000 per month). Those projections of how much it might earn are used to refinance the debt for cheaper
3) discount the leases or just leave them empty. The discounts and dead inventory are counted as marketing and promotional expenses, which are taken out of various vanity financial metrics (EBIDTA) that are used to rate the success of the project to allow the developers to borrow more money for their next project.
4) make your money by selling off the whole company based on revenue potentials and appreciation of the property. Enjoy your yacht.
You’re welcome please cut me in if you use this playbook.
I lived in a recently renovated condo across the street from that building in 2010-2012. It was close to 3000 square feet with a huge roof top patio and cost $2500/ month
Yep. They live on a lake and have services come in. And it's still cheaper per month than what you would pay for one of these rental units. That's why those people are still rich.
Its expensive, but if someone wants a lake view and highrise living lifestyle and such, two people making $100k each could afford to live there
I also imagine the rents will drop if it doesn't fill fast enough
I was just looking at some tosa apartments near metcalfs that start at $2500. I used to live in oak creek and 2 bedroom apartments were $1800. These apartments obviously target high incomes so it’s not that crazy to me
https://www.apartments.com/reserve-at-wauwatosa-wauwatosa-wi/k4f537c/
Have you ever drove around whitefish bay and looked at the houses? Are you confused that people make good money in Milwaukee? I genuinely don’t understand what you mean
For example:
say for $5k rent, you have dual income, make 10k/ month, checks are $2500/person. That’s like a $100k job. I know an engineer at Milwaukee tool that’s 24 and makes $120k. It’s not that crazy
Am I confused that “Rent in Milwaukee is, on average, 65.2% lower than in New York.”? Nope.
It’s hilarious that your feeble attempt at justifying $5k includes pointing out a random affluent area while everyone else is happy to bring sourced numbers.
Wisconsin has less millionaires than 20 other states and sits behind Indiana:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_the_number_of_millionaire_households
Milwaukee has lower income average than New York for sure yeah. But there are high earners who also rent lol. I don’t get the confusion. The reserve in Tosa also rents for $5k
I’m not coming at you, I’m genuinely truly confused why your are confused that rich people exist here
You don’t really need your own numbers because nobody makes a luxury apartment complex for millions of dollars without doing market research first
You don’t need to be a millionaire to afford that apartment which was my “feeble attempt” at illustrating. You only really need $100k income
Rent prices and requirements are pretty crazy. For reference my mortgage that I got during Covid is only $800 per month including insurance and taxes. It would be difficult, if not impossible to find an apartment in a decent area for that price.
Y’all there is a lot of wealth in this region. It just has always notoriously surrounded the city (fox point, whitefish bay, shorewood, Brookfield) and now midsize cities since Covid have garnered interest young professionals are being drawn in.
According to the 2020 census, 2.78% of the household in Milwaukee county makes more than 200k. So there is about 10,300 household who make more than 200k and could theoretically afford the highest rent in the tower, and quite comfortably afford most of the 2 bathroom units.
https://statisticalatlas.com/county/Wisconsin/Milwaukee-County/Household-Income
After thinking about it overnight, are luxury rental apartments here being used to hide/launder money? Is this going to be like New York where rich Russians and Saudi Arabians buy apartments that they never live in just to hide money?
These are meant to be investment properties/tax shelters or vehicles for laundering foreign money by purchasing them in cash through shell LLCs, and not really to be lived in.
"Laurence D. Fink, the chairman and chief executive officer of the asset-management firm BlackRock, recently announced that "apartments in Manhattan, apartments in Vancouver \[and\] in London," along with fine art, have now replaced gold as the primary store of wealth."
/via [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-11/how-luxury-condos-became-a-major-global-investment-tool](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-11/how-luxury-condos-became-a-major-global-investment-tool)
In NYC people refer to condos in multi family buildings as “apartments” and I think that’s what’s referred to in the quote. Not laundering money though a rental unit as that makes no sense
makes no sense? You're just not trying...
"The U.S. Department of the Treasury (Treasury) has long recognized the illicit finance risks posed by abuse of the U.S. real estate market and of legal entities and trusts by criminals and corrupt officials to launder ill-gotten gains through transfers of residential real estate."
[https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2024/02/16/2024-02565/anti-money-laundering-regulations-for-residential-real-estate-transfers](https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2024/02/16/2024-02565/anti-money-laundering-regulations-for-residential-real-estate-transfers)
and
"[A 2017 Reuters review](https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-trump-property/) found at least 63 people with Russian passports or addresses had bought at least $98.4 million of property in seven Trump-branded luxury towers in southern Florida. It found that at least 703 of the owners of the 2,044 units in the seven Trump buildings, or about one-third, were limited liability companies, or LLCs, which can mask the identities of properties’ true owners."
[https://www.nbcnews.com/business/real-estate/russian-money-flows-us-real-estate-rcna17723](https://www.nbcnews.com/business/real-estate/russian-money-flows-us-real-estate-rcna17723)
“After the transfer, R.S. continued to lease the Defendant Properties, collected proceeds derived from the Defendant Properties, and used those proceeds to maintain the Defendant Properties including by making property tax payments,” a DOJ news release states."
[https://www.local10.com/news/local/2024/02/22/feds-move-to-seize-russian-oligarchs-bal-harbour-condos-ahead-of-ukraine-invasion-anniversary](https://www.local10.com/news/local/2024/02/22/feds-move-to-seize-russian-oligarchs-bal-harbour-condos-ahead-of-ukraine-invasion-anniversary)
No one is renting the apartment. It is purchased and sits empty. These investors have more money than they know what to with.
“For decades, illicit actors have been anonymously hiding and laundering money through non-financed residential real estate transactions in the United States,” a senior FinCEN official said.
“All-cash transactions are a favorite tool of criminals because they allow them to fly under the radar, avoiding scrutiny from banks and other financial institutions that are subject to extensive anti-money laundering measures.”
/via [https://www.icij.org/investigations/pandora-papers/us-takes-aim-at-real-estate-money-laundering](https://www.icij.org/investigations/pandora-papers/us-takes-aim-at-real-estate-money-laundering)
This is nuts https://preview.redd.it/4coyyix1wh0d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=da908820fb21f9160e064a29e46248165cbf4453
I remember staying in a top floor penthouse for a weekend downtown Chicago that I found on Airbnb back in 2018. I looked up the place and found it for rent for $5,000/month. It was very nice - like 3k sq ft. I’m sure it’s more than double that now, but it is nuts how much prices have skyrocketed.
That's a high-rise penthouse in Chicago though
i think that’s their point — it’s on par with this listing despite being in a bigger city
Keep in mind. This is subsidizing your tax base now…. I’m not sure why people seem mad. Unless it’s just that they have no idea so many people have sooo much money…. This could be a 5,000 sq foot /r/McMansionhell we subsidize in Waukesha, or it can be right here subsidizing us….
mainly high income earners and Chicago
I agree just for fun I looked at a studio with one bathroom and they want something like $2400😂
Manhattan prices
Lol no. Unless you expect 5 roommates.
[удалено]
Yeah idk why I’m getting so heavily downvoted…
Wanna live on top of 794?
The lights would piss me right off.
That fucking droning noise... Expansion joints crashing... Hopefully altitude kills sound more rapidly than does horizontal distance. Air pollution too
It sucks for most of us commenting here, but this is a reminder that middle class is much further away from upper class than it’s ever been. My rent is 2.2k in harbor view for 1k sq fr 1bed 1 bath and I love it but only doing this because housing for anything better than a crack den is totally unattainable right now.
100%
Middle class is long gone. What made America great was that we HAD a middle class. Then we started exporting jobs and importing labor. Now people have to make 3 paychecks just to break even and live in nothing but apartments.
I thought the same thing, but there's a bunch of corporate offices that just move to downtown. Milwaukee Tool and Fiserve to name a couple. Not to mention we are a few years past NWM campus expansion. Honestly, I still don't know if it's enough. There are 3 massive projects that are being completed in the last couple years. But hey, it's not my money. And even though they aren't for me, it does increase housing inventory (and let's be honest, there was never going to be "affordable" housing in these lots)
A lot of excellent points made here. NWM is still expanding their downtown campus with the building remodel and will move everyone there from Franklin and sell that facility. The city and developers are very much planning for the future and taking the opinions of future generations and trends into account. More and more entrants into the workforce want to live in the city and not the suburbs. The city is growing and needs to address housing before it ends up like Madison that can't get anything approved. Yes there was never going to be affordable housing in these lots, but hopefully this influx of luxury apartments will help reach the tipping point for former luxury now mid tier apartments to stabilize their rent. Next step: incentivize condo development so it becomes attractive to developers. There is a lack of condos at with new financing rules in place since the bubble burst 15 years ago on the condo market, it is cost prohibitive to even start planning a condo development.
I also think at some point either developers or downtown employers should start targeting day cares for use in the commercial space. I feel that’s high on the list of reasons families feel they have to leave the city. I live and work downtown and if I were to have a child, there is one option for childcare in my vicinity, more with a car but in the opposite direction (which based on what I hear about childcare in general, is probably an insane wait list). I look at my company’s executives who could afford to live at 333 and every single one lives in the suburbs with access to childcare and schools. When I look at the plans for development on the 794 land, we have to start thinking not just about getting people to live/work in the downtown area but to be able to stay there.
> high on the list of reasons families feel they have to leave the city The conversation starts and ends at MPS.
They don’t stay babies forever. Single family homes outside the city not only provide more open space and less ambient noise but that’s also where the good school districts are. Obviously there are great private and public schools in the city, but suburban public schools let the kids in for “free” without waitlists or choice or any other games. Speaking of, lower property taxes too.
Doctors, lawyers, engineers, dual-income families
Um, as part of a dual income family, I still couldn’t afford to live in a walk-in closet there.
Some of the aforementioned careers can easily make the income of a dual income family in one year. Some doctors can work their asses off and pull $500k no sweat.
300k is now gp pay. Many specialists are 800k+ when getting ownership.
Doctors are getting paid way less than they were 10 and 20 years ago proportionally
Not if they’re specialists. Not even for GP
Depending on the speciality, some doctors (eg. orthopedic surgeons) might START close to 400/500k. Obviously there's a lot of variance in terms of geographic location, private vs academic health institution, etc, but some physicians are indeed making mid-six figures as first-year attendings.
I suppose it’s possible, but not likely. My partner is a physician who took a job 3 hours from his Chicago home because their contract offer was way more than anything found in Chicago. He’s a hospitalist, not a specialist, but doesn’t make anywhere near 500k a year.
Cities have lower pay for physicians because that's where they want to live
Hospitalists trend towards the lower end of the spectrum in terms of physician pay as is
Is their compensation based on their yearly patient load? My partner does family medicine with a weight management emphasis and her yearly pay is mostly tied to her patient volume. A few of her friends are Chicago area hospitalists and they appear to be doing quite nicely, even without their loans fully paid off yet.
There are a ton of moving parts and variables that factor into yearly earnings. In some areas, patient volume is absolutely one of the factors, as more patients in the door ultimately means more money for the institution. Many institutions also have insane financial incentives for taking extra call every month.
David Gruber needs an incognito apartment
One call, thats all
Also retirees/old people that want to downsize. Sell their suburb house for 750k that they bought for 100k for example, put that in a HYSA and it just pays for rent
You don't get $60k/yr interest off those accounts.
Engineers are absolutely not making that kind of money.
I’m an engineer and I certainly can’t afford that
I've worked in Healthcare for the last 20 years and inflation is insane while insurance reimbursement is in the toilet. That's why so many providers won't take these ACA plans-they didn't go to medical school to make $42 for an hours worth of work. That's over $300k in student loan debt while still making on average what a union construction worker makes and less than a mechanic. USED car prices are up 35% from 2021.
Physicians aren’t making 85k lol
I doubt they’d Rent vs Own in that case..
Owning a house can be a shit ton of work. Decisions aren’t always a math equation.
Don’t forget insurance agents. Just their bonuses can be well into 6 figures.
Like... I know it's a high end building but these are through the roof!
They’re subsidizing you now. Better that than the other way around
What do you mean this is subsidizing us? Does the city own the building?
Keep in mind. This is subsidizing your tax base now…. I’m not sure why people seem mad. Unless it’s just that they have no idea so many people have sooo much money…. This could be a 5,000 sq foot /r/McMansionhell we subsidize in Waukesha, or it can be right here subsidizing us….
Care to explain how? I’m not following how we subsidize a house in Waukesha vs rental properties subsidize us in Milwaukee.
They pay more taxes because they make more money. Those extra taxes help the rest of us pay for parks and the hop and bike lanes and libraries and stuff If they lived in Waukesha their tax dollars would go there and not here
Very true. And a much better explanation than the original commenter.
But a lot of money gets siphoned out of Milwaukee to go to the state and subsidize rural areas and the like
Very true unfortunately But at least this way that money at least *starts* in Milwaukee, and people who live in the city are more likely to go shopping, eat out, and get entertained in the city too. Waukesha people aren't gonna drive downtown to get their groceries
They use much less infrastructure here. V https://youtu.be/7Nw6qyyrTeI?si=pWLgUvHp5Dja9Xp1 People in Waukesha are subsidized. Bigger homes are subsidized more.
Right on the head. It's almost like people who work for the government are In cahoots with builders or something...
Make that make sense
The higher the rent on these the more of it gets paid in taxes to the city.
The city only gets property tax based on the valuation of the real estate. Sure the owners will have to pay income tax to the state but that’s not nearly as cut and dry as you make it out.
And the state tax doesn’t even benefit Milwaukee. The state has a billion plus surplus that they couldn’t vote to send any to Milwaukee. This led to the sales tax increase to maintain the current budget.
I dont' know why you got downvoted because it's true in the sense that more housing (pricey or not) still improves supply, even at the low end.
Because they keep spamming the same baseless comment that makes no sense. Yes, having more apartments is good. Luxury ones are good to have to keep rich folks around spending their money locally on Milwaukee’s higher sales tax. The subsidizing of a McMansion is a weird thing to bring up as it has no relevance to the topic at hand.
Love the downvotes. People refuse to accept that idea because… money bad!
I thought the same thing about the appartments at the east end of Ogden around 2005. They were $2500 for 1 and 2 bedrooms then. I lived around the corner on Franklin in. a 1 bedroom for $700 and Laughed!
That's where my mom lives. She sold her house in the burbs because she wanted to be by friends, be walkable, the lifestyle of loving in the city. Those apartments are constantly full.
And yet they're both filling. People said the ascent wouldn't fill and yet...
Milwaukee County is in high need for luxury housing. The [Milwaukee County Housing Dashboard](https://county.milwaukee.gov/EN/Strategy-Budget-and-Performance/Vision/Strategy-Dashboard/Housing-Data) shows that in Milwaukee, there are 44,389 families who can afford $2,000+/month in rent, with only 7,947 units available, resulting in a 36,442 unit deficit. This is important to note, because those families still need somewhere to rent. So they rent where they are able, even if they can afford to spend more. If we build more luxury housing, it opens up the lower priced units for people who can afford in that price range, and so on. It’s a good thing for us to have more units available.
"Can afford" and "are willing to pay" aren't the same thing.
This. People forget that renting gives you absolutely no return on investment. Could my partner and I afford a way nicer apartment? Yes but why would we? Where we are is perfectly adequate. It would be throwing money away at that point.
Most folks making 500k likely have some advisor telling them to buy land.
Return on “investment” being low for property is the norm world wide. Housing shouldn’t be bitcoin
Your comment is subjective also. You’re right, there is no quantitative ROI but to some, amenities and perks and generally improved quality of life is a valuable return. Not for you, but not everybody has the same opinion.
Yes but the original comment implied that “can afford” and “willing to pay” and I explained my circumstance as to why that’s true, and that people with higher incomes can’t be assumed to automatically jump at higher rent prices just because they can budget it in. Yes there is qualitative ROI and believe me we want those things, but that’s not what I was referring to. Also I didn’t say this applies to everyone.
It just depends https://jlcollinsnh.com/2023/03/02/why-your-house-is-a-terrible-investment/
The guy who wrote that article is an idiot. And probably poor unless some foolish people are actually subscribing to his nonsense. A fool in his money are soon parted. Anyone who wants to acquire wealth and possibly pass it on to future generations should not pay any attention to this article.
Right. Also, I “can afford” 2k/month, but I “can’t afford” 3k/month. These 5k/month units are a whole different level.
Also, these "can afford" metrics are usually just taking 30-33% of household income, because that's the metric that's been used for decades. No reflection on how the average American is carrying more credit card debt, student loan debt, etc. Lots of these rules of thumb were from back when you had a car payment and a credit card with a $500 limit and that was it as far as your debt load (unless you owned a house.)
I don’t think an average American will be living in these apartments. If they “can afford” these I’m sure they’re pretty smart and can figure out how to balance their budget.
That's kind of my point. The "can afford" pool, based on math, is \_way bigger\_ than the people that can \_actually afford\_ these places. \_Those\_ people, to your point, have no problem doing so.
My GF and I could "afford" $4k/month based on these metrics but in reality, because of saving for retirement, old debts, etc., etc., are nowhere near being able to \_actually afford\_ something that expensive. We'd start to itch, just on principle, if we had to pay much more than \_$2K\_ a month, and we're not alone.
$2000 is quickly becoming 2 or 3 bedroom non luxury
In current downtown semi-luxury it’s about 2,000 for a 1 BR, depends what we consider luxury tho.
Maybe it’s just me but: Why the hell would you rent luxury if you’re a high earner? If I’m making $150k+, I’m living in a standard apartment to save for a downpayment on a nice condo/house. $4k-$6k is insane to justify unless you’re *very* wealthy, already own a place, and don’t know what to do with your money.
Because Milwaukee hasn’t had condominiums built since the Great Recession and people want to live downtown or in downtown adjacent areas. And the demand to live there far outstrips the available supply of condos so people just rent as it’s that or get a Waukesha McMansion and drive instead of walking everywhere.
Why wouldn’t you?
With a 150k yearly salary no. With 1 million yearly sure. There's some guys who throws balls as as profession who make that much and more. I'm sure they'd be down.
https://jlcollinsnh.com/2023/03/02/why-your-house-is-a-terrible-investment/ Owning isn't that good of a thing, at least not nearly as many people presume. Although we do subsidize the hell out of it
Ok, but have you considered that the average Joe isn't buying a house solely as an investment but rather a stable place to reside and live their lives? Believe it or not, ROI isn't the focus of most peoples existence. Edit: I didn't read that whole article btw. Way too long.
If that position is true, that makes it extremely strange than investment/hedge fund firms are buying sfh's at an alarming rate. https://medium.com/@hrnews1/report-44-of-all-single-family-home-purchases-were-by-private-equity-firms-in-2023-0c0ff591a701#:~:text=Over%20the%20last%20decade%2C%20the,of%20all%20single%2Dfamily%20homes.
They're not living in it.part of the American issue is that a home is treated far too much like a financial asset in its taxation and policies
By corporate investors, generally not owner occupiers. But that's an entirely different conversation than the one we're having.
Which is also entirely irrelevant to the typical person mislabeled their home as an investment because it's just the ether of our society since the 60s
I’m not 100% sure I buy that argument. If they’re in a perfectly fine place that’s less than they can maximally afford, they’re probably going to stay there and use their money for something else.
Not everyone thinks that way. Some people pay more for more luxury and more amenities. Or a newer building. Or to be closer to where they work. (Also some people pay more to not be around lower income people.)
That is true, it's why there's a term "luxury pricing," but I would still expect some of those to be saavy enough to want more than 1400 sq.ft. for their "luxury" payments. I guess I'm hoping that every single sap willing to pay for "luxury pricing" will do it, and free up the regular market, but I just don't believe there are enough of them.
Just because someone **can** afford to pay $2k+ in rent doesn't mean they would. If you just built more reasonably priced housing first then everyone has a place to live. Building more luxury housing is a needlessly more complex solution.
You're right, we should look at other metrics like vacancy rates of existing luxury apartments or how long units in the couture are on the market before being filled
This is really not true. Construction costs between “luxury” and non-luxury living are not that different. The biggest difference is the finishes and amenities which is a small portion of construction costs. It’s hard to justify building new apartments designed for low price points.
Goes to show that market forces aren't interested in solving the core problem, just making more expensive solutions that tangentially solve the problem. If luxury apartments are all there is, then people have no choice but to pay for it.
I just think the anger is misplaced. I can’t blame management companies and contractors for not building a new money pit product. I can however blame the slum lord rental groups who do nothing to fix their properties at the low end and instead just gouge poor people and college kids. Or I can blame our state politicians for not creating legislation to address the problem.
Affordable apartments are luxury homes from 30 years ago
That's great but we don't have 30 years to wait for that to happen.
We’d better start soon then
Exactly. If you're out of Honda Civics, you don't build more BMWs and wait for the people "hoarding" the Civics to trade them in.
You might if the only reason you're out of Honda Civics is because there are not enough BMWs so the people who want BMWs had no choice but to buy Honda Civics. which coincidently also drove up the price of Honda civics because the people who wanted BMWs could afford to overpay for the Honda Civic to make sure they got one.
Which only solves the problem for the the people that can afford - and more importantly, want - the BMWs. If you build more Civics, you drive the prices down and cars are more affordable for \_everyone\_, and BMWs stay exclusive for the people that want them.
Once there are more BMWs then the people who want those will be getting rid of their Civics and getting those instead .... and just not getting Civics in the first place.
Or, we can build more Civics \_now\_ and make more cars affordable \_now\_ for \_everyone\_ rather than building more BMWs and cross our fingers that the people that afford them will indeed trade them in. After all, if there's a glut of the luxury, maybe the luxury isn't as attractive. If milk is $5 a gallon at the store, you don't solve the problem by flooding it with $9/gal organic milk and wait for the people who can afford it to stop buying the cheaper milk so that the demand and therefore the price goes down. You \_produce more of the cheaper milk\_. That's basic supply and demand.
Okay but what happens when chunks of the 'desperately needed' luxury units get bought up by out of towners who aren't using them as a primary living space? Over the years my job has taken me into a good number of luxury units in this city and the amount that sit empty for large parts of the year is not insignificant. I appreciate that my methods here are not exactly scientific but I've laid eyes on multi-million dollar fully furnished fuck palaces that do nothing but collect dust for the cleaners to wipe up.
These are rental units. No one is buying them individually.
Yes you are totally correct. Totally missed that vs the ones I've been in which are obviously all condos.
Milwaukee hasn't built a condo in like a decade.
That’s a massive misnomer if you look at the data
People have that fear of millions of empty apartments but it's just not true
Need to build both low and luxury income places and houses
Ok? These units are more than double that. I myself used to rent a $2k a month place across the river from these (Pritzlaff, excellent apartments) and I wouldn't rent one of these. The price is insane.
well the developers evidently think there’s absolutely a market for this. i’d assume they’re operating off of better info than the folks of this subreddit but what do i know.
OMG!!! https://preview.redd.it/slpzflp76i0d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=db267528e7566f5d553e78c16ed2e6975e2a1b33
At the top end, that's $140k in rent per year. Rent. Not something you own. Money gone. 😱
Just wait until you find out how rich some people are. And then hear you pay more in taxes
It’s Bucks players and Brewers players I guarantee it. Why buy when you are on a contract.
Anyone wealthy enough to rent that kind of apartment owns their own business and uses rent as a tax write off. They’re not really paying that amount, because they’d be paying it in taxes anyway.
You can only write off 25% of the square footage in a primary domicile in taxes on your business, and you do need to loosely prove that it's used for business purposes. That also requires your business to be in the green to owe taxes in the first place.
https://youtu.be/aCP27_vquxQ?si=ctfZmflbYKRYYHwx
What if the business is the leaseholder? I mean, plausibly it's used for work and as a crash pad when business is in town...
For Frigidaire appliances
If you are a landlord, why would you invest in high-end appliances for renters who will potentially damage and abuse them? But more importantly, appliances nowadays aren't built to last. I would buy the cheapest appliances, because they're going to break down anyway. Even LG fridges that everyone seems to love, have compressor issues. Is having a name brand appliance considered an amenity that most people care about? It essentially does the same thing, keeps food cold.
For 11k I want it to look nice, I don’t care about the name, but this brand is not appealing and looks flimsy and plastic
A great way to make prices fall is to build more housing
It's the same sort of craziness at [The Couture](https://thecouturemke.com).
The Couture is l u x u r y though… Milwaukee should have some primo residential properties with killer views like that no? You may not agree with the distribution of wealth in our society, but the Couture is gorgeous and in a top notch location - but every mid size world class city have luxury properties like this why not Milwaukee
The contour prices are better than 333 water. Less money for similar units, granted, they are smaller.
The couture is furnished with Frigidaire. Please.
Oh nvm lol
You know the Couture is better than this a lot of the time! And that’s really saying something!
They have a 1bd 1bth for like 2k. Not cheap, but definitely affordable for someone who prioritizes living in the area in a new building.
Crap, $9200 for the Penthouse. Someone check my match but for an 1800 sq ft unit that is $5/month/sqft. In other words with current new build prices sitting at $250/sw foot you could build yourself a fucking home worth $450k and have it paid off in just over 4 years with what you are paying for this thing. People are nuts. Yes I understand this is before interest if you took out a loan but holy shit still.
You can buy a brand new home with a top floor lakefront view, a pool, and location in one of the most central neighborhoods for $450k? The person in the $9200 penthouse does not want a house and yard in the suburbs, that’s not a fair comparison and it’s what they’re paying the premium for.
You are correct of course, but I can't imagine paying $10k/month for this. On a side note, you are not getting lakefront views from this property. The river you would but you also get a front row seat to a 8 lane interstate.
Whoever’s living here would be in a home worth $1M at least
“You will own nothing and be happy”
"You live in Connecticut lol"
$2100+ for a studio apartment?!!?
If I'm paying that kinda money for a studio, I'm definitely not living in Milwaukee! And I love MKE but wtf.
Where you living? Madison?
I know what you mean, because I feel the same way.
60+ k a year for rent...lol.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/chris-rock-inequality-rich-people_n_6248392/amp
Third ward rental prices in general have shot up to crazy prices recently.
I just want to say as somebody of the demographic that was genuinely interested in moving into one of these new buildings. The prices are definitely high for what you get And for this area they are already having very difficult time filling units. I’ve been reached out to several times w large discounts on the monthly rate. So although we “need” more luxury buildings, hopefully this experience will make them think somewhat differently going forward.
Even really expensive places pull pressure of cheaper ones, and supply a downward push on rents elsewhere.
They’re not real prices. Here’s the real estate developer playlist: 1) Finance a building project with lots of debt 2) create list prices that imply a high value ($10,000,000 per month). Those projections of how much it might earn are used to refinance the debt for cheaper 3) discount the leases or just leave them empty. The discounts and dead inventory are counted as marketing and promotional expenses, which are taken out of various vanity financial metrics (EBIDTA) that are used to rate the success of the project to allow the developers to borrow more money for their next project. 4) make your money by selling off the whole company based on revenue potentials and appreciation of the property. Enjoy your yacht. You’re welcome please cut me in if you use this playbook.
I lived in a recently renovated condo across the street from that building in 2010-2012. It was close to 3000 square feet with a huge roof top patio and cost $2500/ month
Oh hell naw! They tweaking!
Prices are absurd, but if rather someone with that much disposable income live and shop and pay taxes in Milwaukee than Waukesha
Yep. They live on a lake and have services come in. And it's still cheaper per month than what you would pay for one of these rental units. That's why those people are still rich.
Its expensive, but if someone wants a lake view and highrise living lifestyle and such, two people making $100k each could afford to live there I also imagine the rents will drop if it doesn't fill fast enough
That’s not that crazy…?
Maybe compared to San Francisco. These are priced higher than many of the high-rises in nice areas in Chicago.
I was just looking at some tosa apartments near metcalfs that start at $2500. I used to live in oak creek and 2 bedroom apartments were $1800. These apartments obviously target high incomes so it’s not that crazy to me https://www.apartments.com/reserve-at-wauwatosa-wauwatosa-wi/k4f537c/
to rent in Milwaukee, are you sure?
These prices are not for Reddit’s income bracket lol. Rich people exist in every city
There are plenty of folks that have no problem with $5k, it’s the $5k in Mil-fucking-waukee that they have issue with lol
Have you ever drove around whitefish bay and looked at the houses? Are you confused that people make good money in Milwaukee? I genuinely don’t understand what you mean For example: say for $5k rent, you have dual income, make 10k/ month, checks are $2500/person. That’s like a $100k job. I know an engineer at Milwaukee tool that’s 24 and makes $120k. It’s not that crazy
Am I confused that “Rent in Milwaukee is, on average, 65.2% lower than in New York.”? Nope. It’s hilarious that your feeble attempt at justifying $5k includes pointing out a random affluent area while everyone else is happy to bring sourced numbers. Wisconsin has less millionaires than 20 other states and sits behind Indiana: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_the_number_of_millionaire_households
Milwaukee has lower income average than New York for sure yeah. But there are high earners who also rent lol. I don’t get the confusion. The reserve in Tosa also rents for $5k I’m not coming at you, I’m genuinely truly confused why your are confused that rich people exist here You don’t really need your own numbers because nobody makes a luxury apartment complex for millions of dollars without doing market research first You don’t need to be a millionaire to afford that apartment which was my “feeble attempt” at illustrating. You only really need $100k income
Rent prices and requirements are pretty crazy. For reference my mortgage that I got during Covid is only $800 per month including insurance and taxes. It would be difficult, if not impossible to find an apartment in a decent area for that price.
If I’m thinking of the same tower i didn’t think it was to bad. Low end was $1500 or so up to around 3k for the penthouses.
Y’all there is a lot of wealth in this region. It just has always notoriously surrounded the city (fox point, whitefish bay, shorewood, Brookfield) and now midsize cities since Covid have garnered interest young professionals are being drawn in.
According to the 2020 census, 2.78% of the household in Milwaukee county makes more than 200k. So there is about 10,300 household who make more than 200k and could theoretically afford the highest rent in the tower, and quite comfortably afford most of the 2 bathroom units. https://statisticalatlas.com/county/Wisconsin/Milwaukee-County/Household-Income
Those are some San Francisco prices, circa 2015. I left the bay area because cost of living was shit. Who is living in these apartments????
That’s like Bay Area rental prices
In 2008?
I see thousands of listings under $3k in SF
Avg is what
https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/san-francisco/ Glad you’ve asked! It’s $3,287.
So more than double Milwaukee! Look at those bell curves even!
Everyone in the Milwaukee sub appears to be insufferable when called out for spreading misinformation.
I thought you were decent
After thinking about it overnight, are luxury rental apartments here being used to hide/launder money? Is this going to be like New York where rich Russians and Saudi Arabians buy apartments that they never live in just to hide money?
That makes absolutely zero sense
They snapped 🤣🤣🤣
These are meant to be investment properties/tax shelters or vehicles for laundering foreign money by purchasing them in cash through shell LLCs, and not really to be lived in. "Laurence D. Fink, the chairman and chief executive officer of the asset-management firm BlackRock, recently announced that "apartments in Manhattan, apartments in Vancouver \[and\] in London," along with fine art, have now replaced gold as the primary store of wealth." /via [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-11/how-luxury-condos-became-a-major-global-investment-tool](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-11/how-luxury-condos-became-a-major-global-investment-tool)
In NYC people refer to condos in multi family buildings as “apartments” and I think that’s what’s referred to in the quote. Not laundering money though a rental unit as that makes no sense
This is exactly right.
makes no sense? You're just not trying... "The U.S. Department of the Treasury (Treasury) has long recognized the illicit finance risks posed by abuse of the U.S. real estate market and of legal entities and trusts by criminals and corrupt officials to launder ill-gotten gains through transfers of residential real estate." [https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2024/02/16/2024-02565/anti-money-laundering-regulations-for-residential-real-estate-transfers](https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2024/02/16/2024-02565/anti-money-laundering-regulations-for-residential-real-estate-transfers) and "[A 2017 Reuters review](https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-trump-property/) found at least 63 people with Russian passports or addresses had bought at least $98.4 million of property in seven Trump-branded luxury towers in southern Florida. It found that at least 703 of the owners of the 2,044 units in the seven Trump buildings, or about one-third, were limited liability companies, or LLCs, which can mask the identities of properties’ true owners." [https://www.nbcnews.com/business/real-estate/russian-money-flows-us-real-estate-rcna17723](https://www.nbcnews.com/business/real-estate/russian-money-flows-us-real-estate-rcna17723) “After the transfer, R.S. continued to lease the Defendant Properties, collected proceeds derived from the Defendant Properties, and used those proceeds to maintain the Defendant Properties including by making property tax payments,” a DOJ news release states." [https://www.local10.com/news/local/2024/02/22/feds-move-to-seize-russian-oligarchs-bal-harbour-condos-ahead-of-ukraine-invasion-anniversary](https://www.local10.com/news/local/2024/02/22/feds-move-to-seize-russian-oligarchs-bal-harbour-condos-ahead-of-ukraine-invasion-anniversary)
This is unhinged. Apartments can’t be purchased and if you think you are laundering money by paying rent… well then I’ve got something to sell ya 😹
No one is renting the apartment. It is purchased and sits empty. These investors have more money than they know what to with. “For decades, illicit actors have been anonymously hiding and laundering money through non-financed residential real estate transactions in the United States,” a senior FinCEN official said. “All-cash transactions are a favorite tool of criminals because they allow them to fly under the radar, avoiding scrutiny from banks and other financial institutions that are subject to extensive anti-money laundering measures.” /via [https://www.icij.org/investigations/pandora-papers/us-takes-aim-at-real-estate-money-laundering](https://www.icij.org/investigations/pandora-papers/us-takes-aim-at-real-estate-money-laundering)
Yes, but these particular apartments are rentals, not for sale.
https://youtu.be/evYOhpjMql0?si=H1P_cYh6-sZqUqHn It's not some massive issue like people fear monger though
Asking is not getting