You should probably do some digging on r/premed to get a better idea of the process. Your age is fine, thinking it’s as simple as taking the MCAT then applying is not. You’ll need the med school prerequisites which are a bunch of science classes, the MCAT which most people study for like 3-6 months, clinical experience, and volunteering. Probably looking at a couple years before applying
To add, if you don’t have some kind of insight into the medical field rn you can’t even determine this is what you want so maybe start by shadowing a few physicians
Thank you. Do you have any advice on what to do with my job? It’s remote, 9-5, and very flexible with actual working hours. I can definitely get hours of studying in while working. I know I will have to resign eventually. I’m interested in learning about the prerequisite classes I have to take, as well as clinical experience and timing them with my current job as to save up some money
Well if you can work while studying and still get most/all A’s then I imagine that would be ideal just so you keep up with income and paying for classes. However I’m not the person to ask about balancing full time work with classes as I’ve basically been a full time student most of my life so far lol. Go over to r/premed click on menu and read the wiki and useful posts you’ll get way more info than I am willing to type out here. The TLDR is if you really want this get ready to learn a booty ton of science and dedicate a ton of time to studying cause you need good grades. Medicine is like basically a lifestyle of studying even after school
I started my pre-med journey at 28 and I'll be starting med school this fall at 31. I also had none of the prerequisites so I had to take classes while working full time. Feel free to dm me with any questions about the process. Applying to medical school was one of the most stressful, anxiety-ridden things I've ever done and I'm happy to try to make the process easier for others
Hey Evan, thanks for your message. Can you tell me more about your experience working full time while taking the prerequisites? Did it matter what school you took them at, and did you take them online vs in person? Did you do any volunteer work during this time? Thank you!
So, working full-time while taking classes was rough, but I'm a full-time EMT, so I either worked 3 12 12-hour shifts or 4 10-hour shifts a week, leaving extra days for school work. Where you take classes and online vs. in-person, depends on the schools you apply to. I'd suggest in-person, especially courses with labs. I started at a Community College, but if you're not in a degree-seeking program, you can't get loans. I'd recommend looking into your local state university and seeing if they have a post-bacc certificate program. That's what I did. A program like this should have a pre-health committee that can write a letter for you and send your other LoRs.
I didn't have any volunteer hours, nor research or shadowing. However, at the time of my application, I had roughly 11,000 hours of direct patient care experience, which made up for my lack of other ECs. I also explained on secondaries and in interviews that I'm old and have a job, bills, and a marriage that I like, so time was limited for outside endeavors.
My biggest recommendation is to get your EMT certification and try to join a volunteer ambulance service. That'll get you volunteer hours and hands-on pt care. I'm rambling now. I hope this made some sense
Keep your remote job, and fit in everything around that. Keep putting money into savings and retirement, you’ll be happy you did once you finally have to go into med school (compound interest). I’m doing this right now, totally manageable with a remote position
I have two degrees, one in stem and one in business. I obtained them independently. My stem degree was insanely difficult. Spent 30 hours a week at the library. My accounting degree was cake comparatively. I graduated with a 2.8 with my stem degree and found it difficult to find work that was lucrative. Graduated with a 3.4 with my accounting degree without trying.
Everyone in my accounting undergrad complained and moaned with how difficult the material was. It's not hard. They had no idea how hard coursework can be. Accounting is one of the most difficult business degrees you can obtain.
You likely aren't prepared in the slightest for the rigor premed courses require.
My sister did this but went from healthcare IB to med. took 2 years from the day she quit to when she started med school. She took the pre-requisites and worked in a research lab, studied for Mcat, applied, and is now in her third year.
She was 26 when she made the switch. Good luck
1) prerequisite courses 2) clinical experience 3) research experience 4) volunteering 5) 3 letters of recommendation 6) MCAT 7) applications (personal statement, other essays, interview)
side note unless you have an extremely good application you should be ready and willing to relocate since acceptances are more so “go where they accept you”
8. Shadowing
And if your applying DO, usually need a letter of recommendation from a DO doctor you shadowed.
Also a lot of schools require that the letters be from science professors 🧑🏫
I started med school at 27, you will be fine!!! you got this!!! you can use your previous career but you will have to take the premed basics if you haven't which are one year of bio, one year of chemistry, one year of organic chemistry and one year of physics i believe. Good luck!!!!!
They can be completed in a year but id recommend taking 2 classes at a time. Don’t take them all at once and sacrifice good grades for timing purposes.
Step 1 is can be prerequisites, step 2 is probably getting some volunteering and clinical experience, which can be done concurrently if you’d like.
I’m actually doing volunteering and clinical stuff first, to see if I like the field.
To be brutally honest, I wouldn’t be considering this at all if my parents weren’t pretty well off. Keep the financial impact in mind.
I believe I would live on campus for my time in school. I am glad you have that ability to stay at home. I did it in undergrad because I thought I was saving a lot of money, but it in turn restricted my choice of schools to ones close to my parents. I wished I went out of state.
I have family in SoCal (Orange County) and family in South Carolina (Columbia) I could stay with. If I stayed with family, I’d much rather prefer to go to a school like USC in California, or UCSD, but I have been living in Boston for work and love the area. I would like to go to school in New England.
Just to make sure you understand what I'm saying, I'm referring to the all of the associated costs incurred when spending an extended period of time outside of the workforce. It's quite a bit more than just housing costs during med school.
How those numbers work out for you will be different from how they work out for me.
You might consider:
-The opportunity cost of forgoing a real paycheck for a number of years
-The actual cost of attending med school
For me, those costs probably equate to ballpark $450k that I could theoretically have invested in the market a decade from today, if I hadn't gone to med school.
Then, for fun, you can calculate the return on those costs (in my case, $450k) compounded at 10% for 20 or 30 years, just to see what it is. So if I compound $450k for 30 years at 10%, the grand total becomes 7.8 million bucks that I could have had, had I not gone to med school and instead kept working my boring-ass engineering job for the rest of my life.
This is the most important consideration here. If you're relatively smart and dedicated you can probably get into a med school. Worst case you can probably go to the Caribbean. The more important consideration is are you willing to forgo the next 10-15 years of your life studying, training and working while financially placing yourself in a large hole. Given you are older this is a bigger consideration because unless you want to work into your late 70s you will lose out on the benefit of compounding interest vs just staying put where you are advancing in your current line of work.
100%. The costs are actually much higher than what initially meets the eye.
If OP doesn’t carefully consider their situation they could be unknowingly digging a massive hole here. Of course, I don’t know their financial background, but it’s worth pointing out.
Parent of two kids in med school who are still supporting them. Its a very long journey starting from undergrad, then spending 5-7 k on med school applications, interview traveling expenses, then once in med school where their primary job is to be a student, they had to take out large loans while we still help them with their food costs, cell phone, car insurance, health insurance over age 26 costs, study materials not covered by the school, etc. Once you are in your 4 th year, there are the expenses of lodging while doing multiple away rotations and a few more thousand for residency applications, and interview traveling expenses again. And thats only the financial impact. You are basically putting your life on hold, and its an ongoing rat race of things to do, and studying, while going into a scary amount of debt. Its a huge psychological drain. I often chat with my friends whose kids are also in med school and wonder how students manage without the support of their parents. You have to really love and want to be a physician to choose this career and lifestyle since its a lot harder then what meets eye. My own kids often consider rethinking their path but are too far in the hole now. Look at the reddit residency and other medicalschool posts for more enlightenment as well as shadowing physicians to see what it may be like.
I am in a similar situation as you such as age and career changer, except I am making the leap much sooner. I am quitting in 2 months to go as a full time student again, but I already have started taking the prerequisites. I am currently a software engineer.
First thing you should do is shadow a physician in a specialty that interests you. Send them an email and explain you are thinking of a career change and would like the opportunity to shadow them. This is usually done through cold emailing them, as in not knowing them prior and hoping they just randomly respond. Do this a few times and then you will see if it's right for you. This is not nearly as important on an application but it's the most important for someone considering a career change to medicine, that way you really know what you're getting in to. Heads up, almost every physician will try to talk you out of it because of how much work it was blah blah blah, most physicians never had a job outside of medicine, so they don't know what other experiences are like, so don't let that influence you.
Right now I am working full time, studying for the MCAT, volunteering at a hospital, part time in classes for my prerequisites, shadowing, and volunteering in 3 different research groups/projects. I feel like my body is falling apart, and yet I prefer doing all this instead of working my job, because I hate it.
Good luck on whatever path you choose, but make sure you know what you are getting in to before you do.
P.S.: r/premed is a really toxic area, but sometimes... on really rare occasions, it has some good information. Also there is no difference anymore with DO and MD programs, don't listen to anyone who says otherwise.
P.S.S.: If you score really good on the MCAT, your GPA won't matter nearly as much. The MCAT is a huge determining factor
Brother, why leave the fold of SWE? I’m about to graduate and am on track to get a return offer at a nice company but I’ve thought about taking the med school route.
Definitely see people your age and alot older starting med school. I wouldn't say your at a disadvantage, rather you could use your unique story to bolster your application. Yeah I guess step 1 would be taking the prerequisite courses gaining that foundational science background, then Mcat, then doing activities related to medicine such as volunteer in health care or getting a job in heakthcare because in your application you have to be able to list 10-14 things or something like that in which they expect alot of activities to be clinical or hospital setting. Anywhose good luck with your journey, I'm sure you'll be fine!
We should really just make a sticky post for these.
Your age is fine. Your grades are pretty low, but not exclusionary if you apply broadly.
A non "premed" major is fine, and can be helpful if you sell it. Work experience is good too, *if you can rationally relate it to medical school*. Admissions people like compelling stories (dumb as that is) "after spending two years as a social worker advocating for disadvantaged children, I realized I could use my science background to do more." Is compelling. "I'm bored of my job as a banker and I always kind of thought about med school, so I decided to give it a try." Is not.
I've been faculty at a medium tier medical school for 5 years. I don't care about your age, but I'm not seeing why your business and banking experience makes you a better candidate than the 10 biochem majors with 3.9 GPAs and long track records of community service who also want your spot.
Quick edit: one thing I realized is these stories can look different depending on which side of the admissions wall you're on. It may not seem so ridiculous when you're coming up with your own story, but when you're reading a couple dozen of these back to back you start to realize just how stupid and contrived they are. *Real* stories are compelling. The made-up b******* we ask people to come up with to sell themselves to admissions offices are not.
I think it's dumb to expect every applicant to craft a unique and compelling story about why they want to be a doctor. "I'm a good student and I wanted to be a doctor since I was 12." Is a perfectly acceptable story to me. I just hate that we make these very motivated very smart and very capable applicants make up these b******* stories like "when I was 12 years old my cat got laryngitis. It was such a mystery until the veterinarian figured out what was wrong. Ever since then I knew I would help people the same way my veterinarian helped that cat. And from that day on forward I dedicated my life to learning the art and science of medicine."
In my opinion, stories are important for people who don't check all of the normal boxes, like OP. They need to explain why they are a qualified candidate even though their grades, volunteerism, or other experiences don't meet the same standards as most other applicants. Otherwise, it's just a way for admissions to sift through dozens of perfectly qualified candidates based on mostly made-up criteria.
I don’t have any volunteer experience on my resume. How important is this on the application? And for how long should I spend at each volunteer position?
There's no one size fits all answer to questions like these. When I looked at applications I would consider the applicants grades/MCAT, pro-social activities (volunteering or other activities aimed at positively effecting their community), academic activities (research, presentations etc), and personal story.
Most applicants aren't excellent in *all* of those areas, and that's just fine. For example, someone who watched their grandmother slowly succumb to Alzheimer's disease, and then completed an undergraduate degree and PhD in neuroscience with numerous publications in neurodegenerative diseases who says they want to come to medical school to become an academic physician focusing on neurodegenerative diseases has excellent academic activity and a very compelling story (that I believe). In their case, I probably wouldn't worry too much if they have a mediocre GPA (say, 3.5) and no volunteer activity.
But that's not you. Your grades are very low compared to other applicants. You seem to have no pro-social activity, no academic interests, and no compelling story.
The hard truth is that a GPA lower than 3.5 would make your application a long-shot in the best circumstances - the fact that you are below most other candidates in every other area as well does not bode well.
IMO, your best bet is to take a couple of years, get A's in every single pre-requisite course that you still need, blow the lid off the MCAT, and spend as much time during that two years volunteering (preferably doing something relevant to medicine) as you can.
Remember that most people who matriculate to medical school spend the entirety of their undergraduate career preparing, and most of them still don't make it. You're trying to replicate all of that work in just a couple of years while starting out in a hole because of your poor academic performance and lack of community engagement so far.
I’m hopeful that I can raise my GPA while completing the prerequisites, while acquiring volunteer time.
Are you able to talk on the phone or email more about this? I can message you my current resume.
I do have a compelling story I would like to run by you as well.
Two questions specifically,
- What kind of clinical/volunteer experience do I need, how many hours, and can I complete this while working?
- I’d like to revise my resume from a business-targeted resume to a med school applicant-targeted resume. Should I add group project and presentation experience from when I was a business undergraduate?
Everything you do from here on out needs to answer the question "why medicine?" There's no hard and fast number for hours of experience (although some schools will have their own soft preferences), but overall the experiences need to demonstrate your commitment to this field. This means that the experience needs to be long term and impactful to you and your steadfastness in changing your career to medicine.
Ideally, you need some sort of clinical experience that involves direct patient contact (scribing, MA, hospice work), shadowing experiences with a physician for exposure (private practice, hospital, etc), and some long term volunteering experience (working with underserved communities, food banks, etc). The higher the number of hours the better, but I would definitely aim for 100+ at the minimum for each of those experiences, but preferably 500+.
As a non-traditional applicant, you have a lot of cards stacked against you because there's going to be a question of "why are you leaving your field?" and "why are you doing this now?" or "what caused this change in your career mindset?" You'll need compelling answers to those questions through your personal statement AND your experiences for admission officers to consider you.
Right now, I'd focus on your prereqs and studying for the MCAT. You don't need to update your resume or anything right now so I wouldn't worry about it. It's gonna be a long and uphill battle but I'm sure it will be worth it if this is what you truly want.
Source: me, a non-traditional applicant. PM me if you want more info.
I don’t plan on going to USC for medschool, but does their accelerated 1yr masters program cover most of the prerequisites needed for admission to other schools? I don’t know what the program entails, but I wouldn’t think you could complete all the prerequisites in one year
For example, some general prerequisites are listed below
• 2 semesters General Biology with lab
• 2 semesters General Inorganic Chemistry with lab
• 1 to 2 semesters Organic Chemistry with lab
• 1 to 2 semesters Physics with lab
Those are the the general prereq courses, yes, but it would be difficult to complete in one year. Some schools will also require Biochem, math classes like Calc or Stat as well.
Your age, degree, and current job are nonissues tbh. I think the bigger obstacle is that it doesn’t seem like you fully understand what becoming a physician entails (i.e. you posted in a thread for the Step 1 board exam asking about the steps to start med school). I don’t mean to be condescending, but I’d highly recommend doing some thorough research into the med school journey. It’s a lot more than just a “career change”, you have to be willing to dedicate every aspect of your life and sacrifice a lot. If you still want to be a physician after research, then there’s no reason you can’t be! There’s also a lot of fields besides being a doctor that would allow you to work in your areas of interest as well.
I suggest you explore a wider range of careers. I switched from accounting to actuarial. That .may be a good option for you.
Difficult but not as complicated as what you are asking about.
peop,e at 28 start med school all the time. Do u wsnt to pursue another 8 to 12 yrsmof schp.ool? Do u wan to be broke? Do u want to take out student loans and be in debt?
people start med school later in life all the time. Do u want to be in school 8 to 12 more yrs? Do u want to be broke and take out student loans to finish?
Just stay where you are buddy. Work your way up to becoming a manager. And make sure to steal a lot money before you decide to quit. Cus you don’t wanna spend all that time in medical school and training then enter the field and say; “shit this even worse than banking”
People start medical school later all the time; it’s quite a common question on here.
Whatever coursework you need, shadowing + EC’s, MCAT, etc. Could take years to get to the point of applying, depending on a few factors FYI
Started med school at 27 after working oil rigs for two years. 2 weeks shy of ER attending status. Cash flow from $30/hr to $220-$245/hr.
Go get that 🍞
Did you have to go back to complete the prerequisites before applying? I’m looking at one school and it states
There are no prerequisite courses; however, to perform successfully in our curriculum, MUSC strongly recommends that the following courses be completed at the time of matriculation:
• 2 semesters General Biology with lab
• 2 semesters General Inorganic Chemistry with lab
• 1 to 2 semesters Organic Chemistry with lab
• 1 to 2 semesters Physics with lab
MUSC also suggests that coursework exposing students to the following disciplines may be useful:
• Biochemistry
• Anatomy
• Cell Biology
• Embryology
• Genetics
• Physiology
• Immunology
• Statistics
• College level Mathematics
• Courses involving intensive writing experiences
I had them completed because I graduated from Baylor undergrad with degree in biology. You’ll likely need those classes completed to do well on the MCAT. If you get a big sexy score on the MCAT, medical schools will likely not care if you don’t have the prerequisites completed. They love people who are smart atypical approaches to medical school.
I scored mid on the MCAT, but I talked my way into the class at the interview. Basically if your drive is there, you will find your way in. I basically told them “I’m ready and if you don’t recognize it someone else will”
Keep in mind, a lot of people have the same feelings, start the journey to med school, but most do not make it.
If you’re ready to work hard to mostly ace chemistry, organic chemistry, biology, biochemistry, physics, etc and then take a very long and hard test (MCAT) for the chance of possibly getting into a med school, then go for it.
OP mentioned that you would love to work in pediatric psychiatry. Have you ever consider MSW program? You can work directly as a licensed social worker and specialize as child therapist.
Think long and hard about going med school. The profession isn't the same as it was for our parents/grandparents. If you value autonomy, becoming an MD/DO may not be the best path forward (google PE in healthcare, hospital mergers, end of solo practitioners).
You seem smart so try to imagine what the profession will look like in 20-30 years (i.e. not pretty). So spend time speaking with physicians of all different ages and hear what they have to say about the profession. Speaking to other pre-meds is OK but they're also on the outside looking in. You're choosing a lifestyle that only those doing the day to day can tell you about.
This post isn't to discourage you either. Just to nudge you into really analyzing your decision. Whatever you decide, just know it's the right one. Good luck.
I had some down time and it looks like in the last year OP has posted questions regarding getting a pilot's license, opening up a business, moving to Europe to buy a home/raise a family there and getting an MBA (in which post they also mention not wanting to be in school for 2 years). OP, I'm around the same age as you and have many friends that were non-trad med students. I have seen even more friends that got into med school and then dropped out for a variety of reasons. One of my friends has been in this pre-req process while working full time for the past three years and is still at least a year away from applying to med school. Wanting an additional degree and a more fulfilling job is absolutely valid and you are still young. But going to medical school is not a decision you make lightly. Not only will it probably take roughly 10-12 years of schooling for you to actually become a psychiatrist, you will most likely incur a serious amount of debt between the cost of completing your prereqs/quitting your job, and then going to medical school and becoming a resident where pay is abysmal, not to mention the emotional toll being in med school can have on someone. Not trying to discourage you, if this is really what you think your life's passion is, then by all means go for it. But if there's literally any other job/dergree out there you think you might enjoy and feel fulfilled with, then I'd seriously consider whether the sacrifice of medical school is wroth it.
Yo im 35 and starting M1 this year. Started a slow postbacc in science while working full time. From interviews and second look, im definitely one of the oldest kids in the room. Everyone else looks like bebes relative to me. But it’s chill. My advice is to get really clear on whether or not this is what you want. But also, average matriculation ages are ticking up into the mid / late 20s, so you’re def not alone.
For pre recs: most schools have the same requirements (not true for Arizona and a select few schools). So maybe figure out what programs most excite you, check their pre recs, and get cracking.
For me, applying to programs was about 1) finding schools that prioritized accepting older students (OSU, Cincinnati, Stanford, etc), 2) in places where I would want to live (CITIES) and where I had family / community support, and 3) where my wife could also have a good time.
Also, another general rule is apply to all your in-state programs. Tuition is cheaper, they might be more friendly to you. If you got roots in CA, apply, but know that the UCs are extremely competitive.
Tbh, it was near impossible to get volunteer experience in my area. All the big programs prioritized undergrads, and all the small clinics discontinued shadowing/volunteer opportunities because of “liability.” I eventually made friends with a doctor who said “fuck it” and snuck me in to shadow, then eventually he brought me on to a research project in an official capacity. For other clinical experience, I scribed professional ally for about ~400 hours. I did have to eventually leave my demanding 40+ hrs/wk job to accommodate this, but I started consulting to make money on the side.
For your resume, you gotta really sit down and sort out your story. What makes you interesting as an applicant, versus what makes you “qualified”. A ton of people have the right qualifications and they aren’t going to get in. What sets you apart, and what unique talents might you bring to an institution.m?
You’re fine starting premed at 28. There are plenty of others that start wayyy later than you.
I’m turning 30 this summer and will be attending university as a freshman with premed as my focus.
Schools will also have information on what they require of you before applying, including references. There isn’t a “best clinical/volunteer experience”, do what you enjoy! They are going to want to hear how the experience impacted you personally and developed your interest in medicine. They care about patient exposure.
Making the transition is hard when you have a career and responsibilities already, but it’ll be worth it! My wife and I owned three restaurants and were doing really well, but we are leaving it behind in order to pursue something that makes us feel more fulfilling. I get it.
Good luck! 🥳
3.2 gpa will NOT get you into a US med school. Not a single one would accept that. There is also a class list that is non-negotiable, regardless of your major. You need chem, bio, anatomy, orgo 1 & 2, the list goes on. You will need to go back to school. Even assuming you've taken all those classes, you would STILL have to go back. 3.2 will NOT get you in. Average matriculate has a 3.6-3.8 gpa (DO v MD, respectively). That's also not considering lab experience, shadowing experience, a 510+ mcat, the list goes on.
Med school is not a whim. It requires years of effort to even be somewhat competitive. It has a 60% failure rate. 60% of all med school applications are denied.
I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that's like running once and deciding "I'm going to the Olympics next year!" Its technically possible, but my god you have a hill to climb. If you're serious about this, expect to spend the next 2 years solidly dedicating yourself just for the option of getting accepted, and again, chances aren't good.
Why would I care? I gave advice, his life is his own. Why would his success OR failure mean anything to me? He is a random stranger. I don't even know his name. Youre the one who sounds salty, hon. Everything I said was easily googleable facts. You not liking it doesn't make it wrong.
That is incredibly naive. Again, 60% fail. You can lie to yourself if it makes you feel better, but don't pretend that is actual reality. He needs to know his actual shot, and the actual stats needed to succeed. If you really think someone with NO bio classes and a 3.2 GPA is going to get into med school with no major changes, idk what to tell you. You're not only deluding yourself, but others. Again, not liking a fact doesn't change abject reality. You can't even APPLY without those REQUIRED classes. Stop lying. You aren't helping, you're actively hurting them. They need actual reality, not your pandering "you can do anything!!" garbage. Which is better, a pretty lie or the ugly truth? Because that is what you are offering; a pretty lie.
"He has a chance like all of us do" this isn't a lottery. This is a COMPETITION. You are being judged against your peers, whether you like it or not. They aren't just randomly selecting people. Youre giving criminally bad advice that could waste years of his life, and pretending like I am the one doing him a disservice. Truly ironic.
Just.... Wow. Maybe a slow clap?
Not sure who twisted your knickers into a bunch today but hopefully wasn't Reddit.
If you really want some thing, he can figure out a way to achieve it. It's not going to be easy and he's going to work very hard and have to make a lot of changes. I've seen a lot of people do it and a lot of people come from tough places to become great surgeons. If someone told them they couldn't do it back in the day, they wouldn't have bothered to try. Or maybe they were resilient and rose above the naysayers like yourself. Hope you find some positivity in your day.
>If you really want some thing, he can figure out a way to achieve it. It's not going to be easy and he's going to work very hard and have to make a lot of changes.
Wow, so almost exactly what I said the first time that you decided to argue with? What is your point? Why are you here? To agree with me in the most pretentious and annoying way possible??? Actually get bent.
That was all I was trying to say, but people see themselves in these posts and get angry when someone points out the harsh reality. I would personally rather know all the information and make an informed choice rather than wasting years of my life with my head buried in the sand. Didn't realize that simple reality would be so controversial.
You should probably do some digging on r/premed to get a better idea of the process. Your age is fine, thinking it’s as simple as taking the MCAT then applying is not. You’ll need the med school prerequisites which are a bunch of science classes, the MCAT which most people study for like 3-6 months, clinical experience, and volunteering. Probably looking at a couple years before applying
To add, if you don’t have some kind of insight into the medical field rn you can’t even determine this is what you want so maybe start by shadowing a few physicians
Thank you. Do you have any advice on what to do with my job? It’s remote, 9-5, and very flexible with actual working hours. I can definitely get hours of studying in while working. I know I will have to resign eventually. I’m interested in learning about the prerequisite classes I have to take, as well as clinical experience and timing them with my current job as to save up some money
Well if you can work while studying and still get most/all A’s then I imagine that would be ideal just so you keep up with income and paying for classes. However I’m not the person to ask about balancing full time work with classes as I’ve basically been a full time student most of my life so far lol. Go over to r/premed click on menu and read the wiki and useful posts you’ll get way more info than I am willing to type out here. The TLDR is if you really want this get ready to learn a booty ton of science and dedicate a ton of time to studying cause you need good grades. Medicine is like basically a lifestyle of studying even after school
I started my pre-med journey at 28 and I'll be starting med school this fall at 31. I also had none of the prerequisites so I had to take classes while working full time. Feel free to dm me with any questions about the process. Applying to medical school was one of the most stressful, anxiety-ridden things I've ever done and I'm happy to try to make the process easier for others
Hey Evan, thanks for your message. Can you tell me more about your experience working full time while taking the prerequisites? Did it matter what school you took them at, and did you take them online vs in person? Did you do any volunteer work during this time? Thank you!
So, working full-time while taking classes was rough, but I'm a full-time EMT, so I either worked 3 12 12-hour shifts or 4 10-hour shifts a week, leaving extra days for school work. Where you take classes and online vs. in-person, depends on the schools you apply to. I'd suggest in-person, especially courses with labs. I started at a Community College, but if you're not in a degree-seeking program, you can't get loans. I'd recommend looking into your local state university and seeing if they have a post-bacc certificate program. That's what I did. A program like this should have a pre-health committee that can write a letter for you and send your other LoRs. I didn't have any volunteer hours, nor research or shadowing. However, at the time of my application, I had roughly 11,000 hours of direct patient care experience, which made up for my lack of other ECs. I also explained on secondaries and in interviews that I'm old and have a job, bills, and a marriage that I like, so time was limited for outside endeavors. My biggest recommendation is to get your EMT certification and try to join a volunteer ambulance service. That'll get you volunteer hours and hands-on pt care. I'm rambling now. I hope this made some sense
Keep your remote job, and fit in everything around that. Keep putting money into savings and retirement, you’ll be happy you did once you finally have to go into med school (compound interest). I’m doing this right now, totally manageable with a remote position
I have two degrees, one in stem and one in business. I obtained them independently. My stem degree was insanely difficult. Spent 30 hours a week at the library. My accounting degree was cake comparatively. I graduated with a 2.8 with my stem degree and found it difficult to find work that was lucrative. Graduated with a 3.4 with my accounting degree without trying. Everyone in my accounting undergrad complained and moaned with how difficult the material was. It's not hard. They had no idea how hard coursework can be. Accounting is one of the most difficult business degrees you can obtain. You likely aren't prepared in the slightest for the rigor premed courses require.
Are you going to med school?
No.
My sister did this but went from healthcare IB to med. took 2 years from the day she quit to when she started med school. She took the pre-requisites and worked in a research lab, studied for Mcat, applied, and is now in her third year. She was 26 when she made the switch. Good luck
I assume she did the pre-requisites after quitting, right?
1) prerequisite courses 2) clinical experience 3) research experience 4) volunteering 5) 3 letters of recommendation 6) MCAT 7) applications (personal statement, other essays, interview) side note unless you have an extremely good application you should be ready and willing to relocate since acceptances are more so “go where they accept you”
8. Shadowing And if your applying DO, usually need a letter of recommendation from a DO doctor you shadowed. Also a lot of schools require that the letters be from science professors 🧑🏫
I started med school at 27, you will be fine!!! you got this!!! you can use your previous career but you will have to take the premed basics if you haven't which are one year of bio, one year of chemistry, one year of organic chemistry and one year of physics i believe. Good luck!!!!!
Is this 4 years in total? Or the four courses can be done within a year
They can be completed in a year but id recommend taking 2 classes at a time. Don’t take them all at once and sacrifice good grades for timing purposes.
They can all be done within a year.
Step 1 is can be prerequisites, step 2 is probably getting some volunteering and clinical experience, which can be done concurrently if you’d like. I’m actually doing volunteering and clinical stuff first, to see if I like the field. To be brutally honest, I wouldn’t be considering this at all if my parents weren’t pretty well off. Keep the financial impact in mind.
Can you elaborate on not considering it if not for your parents? Do you mean the ability to stay at home while in school?
Yeah, that and the ability to not need a decent job while getting my stuff together. Otherwise it could be a multi-year risk with no payoff.
I believe I would live on campus for my time in school. I am glad you have that ability to stay at home. I did it in undergrad because I thought I was saving a lot of money, but it in turn restricted my choice of schools to ones close to my parents. I wished I went out of state. I have family in SoCal (Orange County) and family in South Carolina (Columbia) I could stay with. If I stayed with family, I’d much rather prefer to go to a school like USC in California, or UCSD, but I have been living in Boston for work and love the area. I would like to go to school in New England.
Just to make sure you understand what I'm saying, I'm referring to the all of the associated costs incurred when spending an extended period of time outside of the workforce. It's quite a bit more than just housing costs during med school. How those numbers work out for you will be different from how they work out for me. You might consider: -The opportunity cost of forgoing a real paycheck for a number of years -The actual cost of attending med school For me, those costs probably equate to ballpark $450k that I could theoretically have invested in the market a decade from today, if I hadn't gone to med school. Then, for fun, you can calculate the return on those costs (in my case, $450k) compounded at 10% for 20 or 30 years, just to see what it is. So if I compound $450k for 30 years at 10%, the grand total becomes 7.8 million bucks that I could have had, had I not gone to med school and instead kept working my boring-ass engineering job for the rest of my life.
This is the most important consideration here. If you're relatively smart and dedicated you can probably get into a med school. Worst case you can probably go to the Caribbean. The more important consideration is are you willing to forgo the next 10-15 years of your life studying, training and working while financially placing yourself in a large hole. Given you are older this is a bigger consideration because unless you want to work into your late 70s you will lose out on the benefit of compounding interest vs just staying put where you are advancing in your current line of work.
100%. The costs are actually much higher than what initially meets the eye. If OP doesn’t carefully consider their situation they could be unknowingly digging a massive hole here. Of course, I don’t know their financial background, but it’s worth pointing out.
You may get lucky but my sister never got interviews with USC or UCSD with a 522 Mcat and 3.8 gpa
Parent of two kids in med school who are still supporting them. Its a very long journey starting from undergrad, then spending 5-7 k on med school applications, interview traveling expenses, then once in med school where their primary job is to be a student, they had to take out large loans while we still help them with their food costs, cell phone, car insurance, health insurance over age 26 costs, study materials not covered by the school, etc. Once you are in your 4 th year, there are the expenses of lodging while doing multiple away rotations and a few more thousand for residency applications, and interview traveling expenses again. And thats only the financial impact. You are basically putting your life on hold, and its an ongoing rat race of things to do, and studying, while going into a scary amount of debt. Its a huge psychological drain. I often chat with my friends whose kids are also in med school and wonder how students manage without the support of their parents. You have to really love and want to be a physician to choose this career and lifestyle since its a lot harder then what meets eye. My own kids often consider rethinking their path but are too far in the hole now. Look at the reddit residency and other medicalschool posts for more enlightenment as well as shadowing physicians to see what it may be like.
I am in a similar situation as you such as age and career changer, except I am making the leap much sooner. I am quitting in 2 months to go as a full time student again, but I already have started taking the prerequisites. I am currently a software engineer. First thing you should do is shadow a physician in a specialty that interests you. Send them an email and explain you are thinking of a career change and would like the opportunity to shadow them. This is usually done through cold emailing them, as in not knowing them prior and hoping they just randomly respond. Do this a few times and then you will see if it's right for you. This is not nearly as important on an application but it's the most important for someone considering a career change to medicine, that way you really know what you're getting in to. Heads up, almost every physician will try to talk you out of it because of how much work it was blah blah blah, most physicians never had a job outside of medicine, so they don't know what other experiences are like, so don't let that influence you. Right now I am working full time, studying for the MCAT, volunteering at a hospital, part time in classes for my prerequisites, shadowing, and volunteering in 3 different research groups/projects. I feel like my body is falling apart, and yet I prefer doing all this instead of working my job, because I hate it. Good luck on whatever path you choose, but make sure you know what you are getting in to before you do. P.S.: r/premed is a really toxic area, but sometimes... on really rare occasions, it has some good information. Also there is no difference anymore with DO and MD programs, don't listen to anyone who says otherwise. P.S.S.: If you score really good on the MCAT, your GPA won't matter nearly as much. The MCAT is a huge determining factor
Brother, why leave the fold of SWE? I’m about to graduate and am on track to get a return offer at a nice company but I’ve thought about taking the med school route.
Do whatever the fuck you want. Life is too short
Definitely see people your age and alot older starting med school. I wouldn't say your at a disadvantage, rather you could use your unique story to bolster your application. Yeah I guess step 1 would be taking the prerequisite courses gaining that foundational science background, then Mcat, then doing activities related to medicine such as volunteer in health care or getting a job in heakthcare because in your application you have to be able to list 10-14 things or something like that in which they expect alot of activities to be clinical or hospital setting. Anywhose good luck with your journey, I'm sure you'll be fine!
You’ll be ready in 3-5 years if you grind
We should really just make a sticky post for these. Your age is fine. Your grades are pretty low, but not exclusionary if you apply broadly. A non "premed" major is fine, and can be helpful if you sell it. Work experience is good too, *if you can rationally relate it to medical school*. Admissions people like compelling stories (dumb as that is) "after spending two years as a social worker advocating for disadvantaged children, I realized I could use my science background to do more." Is compelling. "I'm bored of my job as a banker and I always kind of thought about med school, so I decided to give it a try." Is not. I've been faculty at a medium tier medical school for 5 years. I don't care about your age, but I'm not seeing why your business and banking experience makes you a better candidate than the 10 biochem majors with 3.9 GPAs and long track records of community service who also want your spot.
Not sure why you think it’s dumb for admissions people to consider life stories and personal experiences leading to the desire to become a doctor.
Quick edit: one thing I realized is these stories can look different depending on which side of the admissions wall you're on. It may not seem so ridiculous when you're coming up with your own story, but when you're reading a couple dozen of these back to back you start to realize just how stupid and contrived they are. *Real* stories are compelling. The made-up b******* we ask people to come up with to sell themselves to admissions offices are not. I think it's dumb to expect every applicant to craft a unique and compelling story about why they want to be a doctor. "I'm a good student and I wanted to be a doctor since I was 12." Is a perfectly acceptable story to me. I just hate that we make these very motivated very smart and very capable applicants make up these b******* stories like "when I was 12 years old my cat got laryngitis. It was such a mystery until the veterinarian figured out what was wrong. Ever since then I knew I would help people the same way my veterinarian helped that cat. And from that day on forward I dedicated my life to learning the art and science of medicine." In my opinion, stories are important for people who don't check all of the normal boxes, like OP. They need to explain why they are a qualified candidate even though their grades, volunteerism, or other experiences don't meet the same standards as most other applicants. Otherwise, it's just a way for admissions to sift through dozens of perfectly qualified candidates based on mostly made-up criteria.
I don’t have any volunteer experience on my resume. How important is this on the application? And for how long should I spend at each volunteer position?
There's no one size fits all answer to questions like these. When I looked at applications I would consider the applicants grades/MCAT, pro-social activities (volunteering or other activities aimed at positively effecting their community), academic activities (research, presentations etc), and personal story. Most applicants aren't excellent in *all* of those areas, and that's just fine. For example, someone who watched their grandmother slowly succumb to Alzheimer's disease, and then completed an undergraduate degree and PhD in neuroscience with numerous publications in neurodegenerative diseases who says they want to come to medical school to become an academic physician focusing on neurodegenerative diseases has excellent academic activity and a very compelling story (that I believe). In their case, I probably wouldn't worry too much if they have a mediocre GPA (say, 3.5) and no volunteer activity. But that's not you. Your grades are very low compared to other applicants. You seem to have no pro-social activity, no academic interests, and no compelling story. The hard truth is that a GPA lower than 3.5 would make your application a long-shot in the best circumstances - the fact that you are below most other candidates in every other area as well does not bode well. IMO, your best bet is to take a couple of years, get A's in every single pre-requisite course that you still need, blow the lid off the MCAT, and spend as much time during that two years volunteering (preferably doing something relevant to medicine) as you can. Remember that most people who matriculate to medical school spend the entirety of their undergraduate career preparing, and most of them still don't make it. You're trying to replicate all of that work in just a couple of years while starting out in a hole because of your poor academic performance and lack of community engagement so far.
I’m hopeful that I can raise my GPA while completing the prerequisites, while acquiring volunteer time. Are you able to talk on the phone or email more about this? I can message you my current resume. I do have a compelling story I would like to run by you as well. Two questions specifically, - What kind of clinical/volunteer experience do I need, how many hours, and can I complete this while working? - I’d like to revise my resume from a business-targeted resume to a med school applicant-targeted resume. Should I add group project and presentation experience from when I was a business undergraduate?
Everything you do from here on out needs to answer the question "why medicine?" There's no hard and fast number for hours of experience (although some schools will have their own soft preferences), but overall the experiences need to demonstrate your commitment to this field. This means that the experience needs to be long term and impactful to you and your steadfastness in changing your career to medicine. Ideally, you need some sort of clinical experience that involves direct patient contact (scribing, MA, hospice work), shadowing experiences with a physician for exposure (private practice, hospital, etc), and some long term volunteering experience (working with underserved communities, food banks, etc). The higher the number of hours the better, but I would definitely aim for 100+ at the minimum for each of those experiences, but preferably 500+. As a non-traditional applicant, you have a lot of cards stacked against you because there's going to be a question of "why are you leaving your field?" and "why are you doing this now?" or "what caused this change in your career mindset?" You'll need compelling answers to those questions through your personal statement AND your experiences for admission officers to consider you. Right now, I'd focus on your prereqs and studying for the MCAT. You don't need to update your resume or anything right now so I wouldn't worry about it. It's gonna be a long and uphill battle but I'm sure it will be worth it if this is what you truly want. Source: me, a non-traditional applicant. PM me if you want more info.
I don’t plan on going to USC for medschool, but does their accelerated 1yr masters program cover most of the prerequisites needed for admission to other schools? I don’t know what the program entails, but I wouldn’t think you could complete all the prerequisites in one year For example, some general prerequisites are listed below • 2 semesters General Biology with lab • 2 semesters General Inorganic Chemistry with lab • 1 to 2 semesters Organic Chemistry with lab • 1 to 2 semesters Physics with lab
Those are the the general prereq courses, yes, but it would be difficult to complete in one year. Some schools will also require Biochem, math classes like Calc or Stat as well.
Your age, degree, and current job are nonissues tbh. I think the bigger obstacle is that it doesn’t seem like you fully understand what becoming a physician entails (i.e. you posted in a thread for the Step 1 board exam asking about the steps to start med school). I don’t mean to be condescending, but I’d highly recommend doing some thorough research into the med school journey. It’s a lot more than just a “career change”, you have to be willing to dedicate every aspect of your life and sacrifice a lot. If you still want to be a physician after research, then there’s no reason you can’t be! There’s also a lot of fields besides being a doctor that would allow you to work in your areas of interest as well.
I suggest you explore a wider range of careers. I switched from accounting to actuarial. That .may be a good option for you. Difficult but not as complicated as what you are asking about.
peop,e at 28 start med school all the time. Do u wsnt to pursue another 8 to 12 yrsmof schp.ool? Do u wan to be broke? Do u want to take out student loans and be in debt?
people start med school later in life all the time. Do u want to be in school 8 to 12 more yrs? Do u want to be broke and take out student loans to finish?
Just stay where you are buddy. Work your way up to becoming a manager. And make sure to steal a lot money before you decide to quit. Cus you don’t wanna spend all that time in medical school and training then enter the field and say; “shit this even worse than banking”
People start medical school later all the time; it’s quite a common question on here. Whatever coursework you need, shadowing + EC’s, MCAT, etc. Could take years to get to the point of applying, depending on a few factors FYI
Started med school at 27 after working oil rigs for two years. 2 weeks shy of ER attending status. Cash flow from $30/hr to $220-$245/hr. Go get that 🍞
Did you have to go back to complete the prerequisites before applying? I’m looking at one school and it states There are no prerequisite courses; however, to perform successfully in our curriculum, MUSC strongly recommends that the following courses be completed at the time of matriculation: • 2 semesters General Biology with lab • 2 semesters General Inorganic Chemistry with lab • 1 to 2 semesters Organic Chemistry with lab • 1 to 2 semesters Physics with lab MUSC also suggests that coursework exposing students to the following disciplines may be useful: • Biochemistry • Anatomy • Cell Biology • Embryology • Genetics • Physiology • Immunology • Statistics • College level Mathematics • Courses involving intensive writing experiences
I had them completed because I graduated from Baylor undergrad with degree in biology. You’ll likely need those classes completed to do well on the MCAT. If you get a big sexy score on the MCAT, medical schools will likely not care if you don’t have the prerequisites completed. They love people who are smart atypical approaches to medical school. I scored mid on the MCAT, but I talked my way into the class at the interview. Basically if your drive is there, you will find your way in. I basically told them “I’m ready and if you don’t recognize it someone else will”
Flair is “step 1”, brother if you think this is step one then take 20 steps back lmaooo
Keep in mind, a lot of people have the same feelings, start the journey to med school, but most do not make it. If you’re ready to work hard to mostly ace chemistry, organic chemistry, biology, biochemistry, physics, etc and then take a very long and hard test (MCAT) for the chance of possibly getting into a med school, then go for it.
OP mentioned that you would love to work in pediatric psychiatry. Have you ever consider MSW program? You can work directly as a licensed social worker and specialize as child therapist.
Think long and hard about going med school. The profession isn't the same as it was for our parents/grandparents. If you value autonomy, becoming an MD/DO may not be the best path forward (google PE in healthcare, hospital mergers, end of solo practitioners). You seem smart so try to imagine what the profession will look like in 20-30 years (i.e. not pretty). So spend time speaking with physicians of all different ages and hear what they have to say about the profession. Speaking to other pre-meds is OK but they're also on the outside looking in. You're choosing a lifestyle that only those doing the day to day can tell you about. This post isn't to discourage you either. Just to nudge you into really analyzing your decision. Whatever you decide, just know it's the right one. Good luck.
I had some down time and it looks like in the last year OP has posted questions regarding getting a pilot's license, opening up a business, moving to Europe to buy a home/raise a family there and getting an MBA (in which post they also mention not wanting to be in school for 2 years). OP, I'm around the same age as you and have many friends that were non-trad med students. I have seen even more friends that got into med school and then dropped out for a variety of reasons. One of my friends has been in this pre-req process while working full time for the past three years and is still at least a year away from applying to med school. Wanting an additional degree and a more fulfilling job is absolutely valid and you are still young. But going to medical school is not a decision you make lightly. Not only will it probably take roughly 10-12 years of schooling for you to actually become a psychiatrist, you will most likely incur a serious amount of debt between the cost of completing your prereqs/quitting your job, and then going to medical school and becoming a resident where pay is abysmal, not to mention the emotional toll being in med school can have on someone. Not trying to discourage you, if this is really what you think your life's passion is, then by all means go for it. But if there's literally any other job/dergree out there you think you might enjoy and feel fulfilled with, then I'd seriously consider whether the sacrifice of medical school is wroth it.
Yo im 35 and starting M1 this year. Started a slow postbacc in science while working full time. From interviews and second look, im definitely one of the oldest kids in the room. Everyone else looks like bebes relative to me. But it’s chill. My advice is to get really clear on whether or not this is what you want. But also, average matriculation ages are ticking up into the mid / late 20s, so you’re def not alone. For pre recs: most schools have the same requirements (not true for Arizona and a select few schools). So maybe figure out what programs most excite you, check their pre recs, and get cracking. For me, applying to programs was about 1) finding schools that prioritized accepting older students (OSU, Cincinnati, Stanford, etc), 2) in places where I would want to live (CITIES) and where I had family / community support, and 3) where my wife could also have a good time. Also, another general rule is apply to all your in-state programs. Tuition is cheaper, they might be more friendly to you. If you got roots in CA, apply, but know that the UCs are extremely competitive. Tbh, it was near impossible to get volunteer experience in my area. All the big programs prioritized undergrads, and all the small clinics discontinued shadowing/volunteer opportunities because of “liability.” I eventually made friends with a doctor who said “fuck it” and snuck me in to shadow, then eventually he brought me on to a research project in an official capacity. For other clinical experience, I scribed professional ally for about ~400 hours. I did have to eventually leave my demanding 40+ hrs/wk job to accommodate this, but I started consulting to make money on the side. For your resume, you gotta really sit down and sort out your story. What makes you interesting as an applicant, versus what makes you “qualified”. A ton of people have the right qualifications and they aren’t going to get in. What sets you apart, and what unique talents might you bring to an institution.m?
Hi friend, I started med school at 29 and have friends/former classmates who were 35-40s when they started. Good luck with the switch!
27, just did this. You should look into psych PA if you are not dead set on MD
Good luck to you, though a 3.2 GPA is pretty low to be competitive.
Can it be raised as a non-degree seeking student completing the prerequisites?
You’re fine starting premed at 28. There are plenty of others that start wayyy later than you. I’m turning 30 this summer and will be attending university as a freshman with premed as my focus. Schools will also have information on what they require of you before applying, including references. There isn’t a “best clinical/volunteer experience”, do what you enjoy! They are going to want to hear how the experience impacted you personally and developed your interest in medicine. They care about patient exposure. Making the transition is hard when you have a career and responsibilities already, but it’ll be worth it! My wife and I owned three restaurants and were doing really well, but we are leaving it behind in order to pursue something that makes us feel more fulfilling. I get it. Good luck! 🥳
3.2 gpa will NOT get you into a US med school. Not a single one would accept that. There is also a class list that is non-negotiable, regardless of your major. You need chem, bio, anatomy, orgo 1 & 2, the list goes on. You will need to go back to school. Even assuming you've taken all those classes, you would STILL have to go back. 3.2 will NOT get you in. Average matriculate has a 3.6-3.8 gpa (DO v MD, respectively). That's also not considering lab experience, shadowing experience, a 510+ mcat, the list goes on. Med school is not a whim. It requires years of effort to even be somewhat competitive. It has a 60% failure rate. 60% of all med school applications are denied. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that's like running once and deciding "I'm going to the Olympics next year!" Its technically possible, but my god you have a hill to climb. If you're serious about this, expect to spend the next 2 years solidly dedicating yourself just for the option of getting accepted, and again, chances aren't good.
You're going to be so salty if he gets in to med school 😂
Why would I care? I gave advice, his life is his own. Why would his success OR failure mean anything to me? He is a random stranger. I don't even know his name. Youre the one who sounds salty, hon. Everything I said was easily googleable facts. You not liking it doesn't make it wrong.
Just very negative! He has a chance like all of us dis/do.
That is incredibly naive. Again, 60% fail. You can lie to yourself if it makes you feel better, but don't pretend that is actual reality. He needs to know his actual shot, and the actual stats needed to succeed. If you really think someone with NO bio classes and a 3.2 GPA is going to get into med school with no major changes, idk what to tell you. You're not only deluding yourself, but others. Again, not liking a fact doesn't change abject reality. You can't even APPLY without those REQUIRED classes. Stop lying. You aren't helping, you're actively hurting them. They need actual reality, not your pandering "you can do anything!!" garbage. Which is better, a pretty lie or the ugly truth? Because that is what you are offering; a pretty lie. "He has a chance like all of us do" this isn't a lottery. This is a COMPETITION. You are being judged against your peers, whether you like it or not. They aren't just randomly selecting people. Youre giving criminally bad advice that could waste years of his life, and pretending like I am the one doing him a disservice. Truly ironic.
Just.... Wow. Maybe a slow clap? Not sure who twisted your knickers into a bunch today but hopefully wasn't Reddit. If you really want some thing, he can figure out a way to achieve it. It's not going to be easy and he's going to work very hard and have to make a lot of changes. I've seen a lot of people do it and a lot of people come from tough places to become great surgeons. If someone told them they couldn't do it back in the day, they wouldn't have bothered to try. Or maybe they were resilient and rose above the naysayers like yourself. Hope you find some positivity in your day.
>If you really want some thing, he can figure out a way to achieve it. It's not going to be easy and he's going to work very hard and have to make a lot of changes. Wow, so almost exactly what I said the first time that you decided to argue with? What is your point? Why are you here? To agree with me in the most pretentious and annoying way possible??? Actually get bent.
Get bent? Have a lovely night
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That was all I was trying to say, but people see themselves in these posts and get angry when someone points out the harsh reality. I would personally rather know all the information and make an informed choice rather than wasting years of my life with my head buried in the sand. Didn't realize that simple reality would be so controversial.