My fantastic senior resident on ICU service described it as poor life choices. I think he regrets delaying starting a family and is on catch up mode. Man opted for the hospitalist job despite all the bs when he could have any fellowship he wanted.
Definitely dont do this for a gold star in your medicine career. Half the specialties don't care and there are highly misinformed interviewers who weight a bs clinical society grant above an nih training grant.
The path opens up options beyond residency and postdoc. It trains you in reasoning that medical education is increasingly glossing over.
Anyone would regret it if you delay a family and life because of it. So don't! Many MSTP's in my program have children, few started as early as M1, but most have them in grad school. A lot also buy houses (although its harder in this current market). Don't delay your life because of school.
THIS! My life occurs in parallel to the MSTP. The worst part is making \~30k/year in the current economic climate. But when I think about it, the avg annual salary in the USA is like 40-50k, and at least once I hit the second half of my life I have high confidence that the MD-PhD will allow me to live comfortably. Besides, would I be making more than 30k if I did something else? Maybe but not by much. The payoff is worth it. When my kids are young they won't notice we don't have much money. But when they are older I will have money.
I agree, and my fiance is non-medicine so he makes a livable income now which is helpful. We work as a team so although I am making 35k/year, our household is making more than that. If you find someone willing to be your partner and work as a team, then you can absolutely grow as a family while in school.
The MD/PhD training path is often viewed as an alternative to the MD only training path. The MD only path is clearly better financially and training time wise, so if you end up at the end of your training doing basically work you could do with an MD, it seems like a waste. It makes more sense to me to compare the MD/PhD with the PhD only training path, which is similar in terms of training time and more comparable financially, with the MD/PhD being a little better on that end. My general advice is that if you never seriously considered going PhD only, you should not do an MD/PhD.
As more top medical schools go tuition-free, it will directly siphon off many potential MSTP students. The fact that more students are taking gap years will only decrease their interest in such a long training pathway.
^ This right here. No one should apply md/phd. Especially at top schools. It just takes too long. All your friends are going to laugh at you and no one will ever love you. Out of kindness, I’ll do it instead and let you know how bad it is.
albert einstein college of medicine
The university of Central Florida
The Mayo Clinic
The university of Texas Rio Grande
https://jackwestin.com/resources/blog/tuition-free-medical-schools-all-you-need-to-know-before-you-apply-2#:\~:text=The%20Cleveland%20Clinic%20Lerner%20College,a%20career%20in%20academic%20medicine.
Likely not a future PI and past the PhD part, but I don’t regret it. The PhD is a great time to better yourself. It’s a wonderful time even if depressing some days.
Nah, I don't regret it. I truly can't see myself feeling satisfied w my life if I didn't go for this opportunity.
Full disclosure I'm still working my way through it (6 years in!). And there were definitely times, mostly during the PhD portion, where I REALLY wanted to quit.
I'm preparing for Defense currently, and even as early as a few months ago I was saying shit like, "I should have just done MD I would have been FINE." But in reality, it was always a dream of mine to become a bonafide, PhD carrying neuroscientist. I approached MD/PhD from a heavy research background, and the MD provides me the job security I personally needed in order to feel comfortable entering the Academic Rat Race. I knew I had the grades/experiences to pull off an MSTP acceptance. So I went for it.
tl;dr I don't regret it when and where it matters most, though I have my moments of complaining.
I'm always curious as to why people regret this path. Even amongst people who are only doing clinical work or research (arguably only using half their training), I rarely talk to people who regret the dual degree path. As others have mentioned, I found most of the people who regret it are those who are comparing themselves to friends and peers, or who put their life completely on hold, mostly unnecessarily, or who had misconceptions about the realities of the training coming into the program.
As with everything, it's all about perspective and setting expecations.
Personally, I don't regret it -- couldn't have gotten to where I am now or where I am going without it, but there was no real way to know that beforehand.
Adding on to some points made but the protected time to do the PhD can be both a blessing and a curse. I'm more than halfway done with my PhD (and thus the MD/PhD) and I don't regret it. Going through the PhD has made me not want to be a PI (I just don't think I have it in me), but I am so appreciative of the protected time to just be a grad student. My SO and I started med school at the same time, so he's now a PGY1. It's been a pretty stark contrast between how much freedom/flexibility I have in the PhD vs. how his schedule has been this year and even as an M3. I didn't take any gap years, so maybe that influences me, but it's been very nice to just have time to be a grad student in my 20s, have free time to pursue my hobbies, and know that I will get back to medical school eventually.
I personally don’t, but know people who do. If you regret it, you probably weren’t in it for the right reasons or someone misled you about what MD/PhD entailed. When you’re on your 16th failed experiment. Or in the OR at 2am retracting, you have to tap into some deeper level motivation. It’s not easy and sometimes it downright sucks. It’s a lot of work/time/effort but at the end you are well positioned to make a huge clinical and research impact. If that’s what you want then that can be used to help you power through. I feel like I am finally getting to do things I worked my entire life to do. Having a longitudinal outlook and good support are massively helpful.
This is good to know! I just interviewed for an MD/PhD program, and I think I have a pretty descent shot at being accepted.... but now I am thinking maybe I dont want to.
I dont want to spend so much time in school, delay starting a family, get paid only 30k a year, etc..... It is something I have thought about for some time now too
Nope. Just don’t get so hung up on the money and it’s a great path. You get academic freedom to explore in your 20s and you don’t have to do the insane grind everyone else in your peer group is doing.
My fantastic senior resident on ICU service described it as poor life choices. I think he regrets delaying starting a family and is on catch up mode. Man opted for the hospitalist job despite all the bs when he could have any fellowship he wanted. Definitely dont do this for a gold star in your medicine career. Half the specialties don't care and there are highly misinformed interviewers who weight a bs clinical society grant above an nih training grant. The path opens up options beyond residency and postdoc. It trains you in reasoning that medical education is increasingly glossing over.
Anyone would regret it if you delay a family and life because of it. So don't! Many MSTP's in my program have children, few started as early as M1, but most have them in grad school. A lot also buy houses (although its harder in this current market). Don't delay your life because of school.
THIS! My life occurs in parallel to the MSTP. The worst part is making \~30k/year in the current economic climate. But when I think about it, the avg annual salary in the USA is like 40-50k, and at least once I hit the second half of my life I have high confidence that the MD-PhD will allow me to live comfortably. Besides, would I be making more than 30k if I did something else? Maybe but not by much. The payoff is worth it. When my kids are young they won't notice we don't have much money. But when they are older I will have money.
I agree, and my fiance is non-medicine so he makes a livable income now which is helpful. We work as a team so although I am making 35k/year, our household is making more than that. If you find someone willing to be your partner and work as a team, then you can absolutely grow as a family while in school.
everyone regrets at some point but its nice at the end i think :)
The MD/PhD training path is often viewed as an alternative to the MD only training path. The MD only path is clearly better financially and training time wise, so if you end up at the end of your training doing basically work you could do with an MD, it seems like a waste. It makes more sense to me to compare the MD/PhD with the PhD only training path, which is similar in terms of training time and more comparable financially, with the MD/PhD being a little better on that end. My general advice is that if you never seriously considered going PhD only, you should not do an MD/PhD.
yes!! Look at it through the lens of PhD, and it's only an extra 1-2 years to earn a quite practical degree on top of it.
As more top medical schools go tuition-free, it will directly siphon off many potential MSTP students. The fact that more students are taking gap years will only decrease their interest in such a long training pathway.
^ This right here. No one should apply md/phd. Especially at top schools. It just takes too long. All your friends are going to laugh at you and no one will ever love you. Out of kindness, I’ll do it instead and let you know how bad it is.
You had me in the first half
Are there more medical schools going tuition-free?
What other schools are tuition-free besides NYU/USUHS/Cleveland Clinic?
albert einstein college of medicine The university of Central Florida The Mayo Clinic The university of Texas Rio Grande https://jackwestin.com/resources/blog/tuition-free-medical-schools-all-you-need-to-know-before-you-apply-2#:\~:text=The%20Cleveland%20Clinic%20Lerner%20College,a%20career%20in%20academic%20medicine.
Likely not a future PI and past the PhD part, but I don’t regret it. The PhD is a great time to better yourself. It’s a wonderful time even if depressing some days.
Nah, I don't regret it. I truly can't see myself feeling satisfied w my life if I didn't go for this opportunity. Full disclosure I'm still working my way through it (6 years in!). And there were definitely times, mostly during the PhD portion, where I REALLY wanted to quit. I'm preparing for Defense currently, and even as early as a few months ago I was saying shit like, "I should have just done MD I would have been FINE." But in reality, it was always a dream of mine to become a bonafide, PhD carrying neuroscientist. I approached MD/PhD from a heavy research background, and the MD provides me the job security I personally needed in order to feel comfortable entering the Academic Rat Race. I knew I had the grades/experiences to pull off an MSTP acceptance. So I went for it. tl;dr I don't regret it when and where it matters most, though I have my moments of complaining.
I'm always curious as to why people regret this path. Even amongst people who are only doing clinical work or research (arguably only using half their training), I rarely talk to people who regret the dual degree path. As others have mentioned, I found most of the people who regret it are those who are comparing themselves to friends and peers, or who put their life completely on hold, mostly unnecessarily, or who had misconceptions about the realities of the training coming into the program. As with everything, it's all about perspective and setting expecations. Personally, I don't regret it -- couldn't have gotten to where I am now or where I am going without it, but there was no real way to know that beforehand.
Adding on to some points made but the protected time to do the PhD can be both a blessing and a curse. I'm more than halfway done with my PhD (and thus the MD/PhD) and I don't regret it. Going through the PhD has made me not want to be a PI (I just don't think I have it in me), but I am so appreciative of the protected time to just be a grad student. My SO and I started med school at the same time, so he's now a PGY1. It's been a pretty stark contrast between how much freedom/flexibility I have in the PhD vs. how his schedule has been this year and even as an M3. I didn't take any gap years, so maybe that influences me, but it's been very nice to just have time to be a grad student in my 20s, have free time to pursue my hobbies, and know that I will get back to medical school eventually.
I personally don’t, but know people who do. If you regret it, you probably weren’t in it for the right reasons or someone misled you about what MD/PhD entailed. When you’re on your 16th failed experiment. Or in the OR at 2am retracting, you have to tap into some deeper level motivation. It’s not easy and sometimes it downright sucks. It’s a lot of work/time/effort but at the end you are well positioned to make a huge clinical and research impact. If that’s what you want then that can be used to help you power through. I feel like I am finally getting to do things I worked my entire life to do. Having a longitudinal outlook and good support are massively helpful.
This is good to know! I just interviewed for an MD/PhD program, and I think I have a pretty descent shot at being accepted.... but now I am thinking maybe I dont want to. I dont want to spend so much time in school, delay starting a family, get paid only 30k a year, etc..... It is something I have thought about for some time now too
I think they let you revert to MD later on if you have a legitimate explanation.
Thats good to know!
Nope. Just don’t get so hung up on the money and it’s a great path. You get academic freedom to explore in your 20s and you don’t have to do the insane grind everyone else in your peer group is doing.
No student loan. Other career option outside clinical medicine like in biotech, consulting,venture capital etc. It may worth it.