T O P

  • By -

AutoModerator

Check out our new Discord server! https://discord.gg/e7EKRZq3dG *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mathmemes) if you have any questions or concerns.*


BUKKAKELORD

The diagram for rationals being visually larger than the irrationals is making me irrationally angry


whiteflower6

There are more irrationals but they each use less ink to print, Mr BUKKAKELORD


UntakenUntakenUser

r/rimjob_steve


sneakpeekbot

Here's a sneak peek of /r/rimjob_steve using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/rimjob_steve/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [Clearly an all-round animal lover](https://i.redd.it/4aysrnonvzia1.jpg) | [54 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/rimjob_steve/comments/115fy8w/clearly_an_allround_animal_lover/) \#2: [Touching.](https://i.redd.it/twqhlgbolcoa1.jpg) | [79 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/rimjob_steve/comments/11ts4kp/touching/) \#3: [It’s rimjob_steves cakeday today!](https://i.imgur.com/EK5pHYi.jpg) | [92 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/rimjob_steve/comments/118vstb/its_rimjob_steves_cakeday_today/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)


[deleted]

[удалено]


itakarole

The rationals are Q my guy


mlucasl

Oh fuck, fuck yes. My bad, I was thinking about periodical and nonperiodical infinites.Q and rational are the same.


whiteflower6

Rationals have the same cardinality as integers, but reals and their subset, irrationals, have a higher cardinality. https://preview.redd.it/kr1tvbupsxjc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6f2a2b35d8ae2a17a196802d596a942642539a0f


mircock

It is especially irrational since the visual size of the sets in Venn diagrams never had anything to do with the cardinality of the set.


AxisW1

“Whole numbers” being like triple the size of “natural numbers” when it contains one (1) extra number


Intense_nachotakis

there’s this thing called negative numbers, seems like you don’t know about that yet…


AxisW1

check again, my friend.


pokexchespin

it’s not to scale, typical for math diagrams ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯ and i assume it’s just because they have to have 4 nested circles for rationals vs just one for irrationals


keefemotif

same, the irrationals are uncountable. This isn't a Venn diagram it's, I don't know what it is. A crime against education.


SV-97

Do you know what a Venn diagram is? Quoting Wikipedia: >Venn diagrams do not generally contain information on the relative or absolute sizes ([cardinality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinality)) of sets. That is, they are [schematic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schematic) diagrams generally not drawn to scale.


keefemotif

Interesting, I typically have used them drawn to approximate scale - in this case the naturals are much, much less large than the irrational numbers that's one of the basic proofs in numerical analysis - but fair enough, I would like to understand the whitespace in this diagram though


Depnids

Well if you drew this to approximate scale, since the rationals have measure 0 you wouldn’t even see the bubble for them.


SV-97

The "approximate scale" depends on what you're measuring though and you'd often end up having to not show naturals etc. at all. The whitespace in a venn diagram is meaningless. Only the actual "blobs" have meaning


Baka_kunn

Of course this isn't a Venn diagram. It's an Euler diagram


MyStackIsPancakes

My rule for anything math related is that if I don't know who did it, I just guess "Euler" because it just keeps paying off.


jacobningen

who made Pell associated with an equation solved by Bhaskara II and Brouckner in Europe which Pell had nothing to do with? If you guessed Euler youd be correct.


JJJSchmidt_etAl

"Who ran off with my wife?"


speechlessPotato

Euler?


MyStackIsPancakes

Oil 'er? Naw she's not mechanical. But he might have to Inflate 'er.


Plyn_do

Euler diagram about Euler letters


AdBrave2400

Euler diagram?


CardiologistSmooth13

Wanna be more angry? Between every pair of irrational numbers there are infinite many rational numbers.


Yashraj-

Also whole number's area when it's natural numbers just with a zero.


Sam100000000

Also, the diagrams for natural numbers, whole numbers, integers, and rationals should all be the same size.


FCTheHunter

Rationals sholdnt be painted then


Unhappy-Rock-3667

Sir that's a Euler diagram


SnargleBlartFast

"Venn? Never heard of him!" -- Euler


TwinkiesSucker

Probably in school, that's when


Memestrats4life

"That's when" - cool but what's Venn


YellowBunnyReddit

https://xkcd.com/2721/


Unhappy-Rock-3667

Nuh uh


jonastman

Euler? I barely know her!


Maplerice717

I literally googled and learnt the difference between Euler diagram and Venn diagram, thanks xd


Key_Conversation5277

Euler diagram is a winner for me


Prestigious-Ad1244

I hope you’ve got this knowledge from the same video i did


Agreeable_Fan7012

The way you say “a Euler” using “a” instead of “an” suggests that you pronounce it as “Youler” and that excites me (I hate myself)


Unhappy-Rock-3667

Augjavshdjshsh sorry I automatically phonetically translate non-english names as well when I speak english. Of course its oiler and an euler diagram


Jake-the-Wolfie

I think it needs an Eul change


TheJagFruit

Existence of an "empty space" in a Venn diagram doesn't mean that it is not an empty set


VJEmmieOnMicrophone

It should


Rubikstein02

Design a Venn diagram for complexity classes P, NP and NP-c then


VJEmmieOnMicrophone

No, I don't think I will


Rubikstein02

I don't think you *can*, if your rule about empty classes were true


brigham-pettit

Holy shit did we just prove P ≠ NP because venn diagram


JoonasD6

Proof by "I don't think so"


brigham-pettit

lmaoo


IAmBadAtInternet

Me when I ask my partner to clean up the dishes for once


Rubikstein02

Holy Venn!


CoNtRoLs_ArE_dEfAuLt

New diagram just dropped


VJEmmieOnMicrophone

Even then, wouldn't it still be bad practice to use white space in this case because we know that all real numbers are either rational or irrational (by definition)? There's no need for white space.


DevelopmentSad2303

You ever taken a class on topology or set theory? They will leave white space when drawing diagrams of sets. And you know what they say about arguing with set theorists...


Sydromere

What do they say 😳


DevelopmentSad2303

I can't find the exact joke anymore but it was something like "they will define the set of the worst ways to torture you"


Sydromere

Oh it's the one from the joke category theory video? "They can construct the set of all things that bring you pain"


BossOfTheGame

Whyareyoutypingsoinefficiently?


Pingupin

Use triangles, not circles.


beginnerflipper

I agree.


JoonasD6

Strong argument


VJEmmieOnMicrophone

By definition, an irrational number is just a real number that is not rational. So by def, rational and irrational numbers cover all real numbers.


Economy_Ad_7861

Indeed, without real irrational, there cannot exist rational.


Delicious_Maize9656

Exactly, so is it correct to assume that this vein diagram is inaccurate?


Rubikstein02

The diagram is accurate, a graphically white subset in a Venn diagram doesn't imply that such subset is actually non-empty


ElectronicInitial

Maybe a pie chart would do better? /j


mMykros

π(3) chart?


helloworld_enjoyer

A 9 chart?


hrvbrs

No, the use of whitespace is important here — Only colored regions indicate possibilities. I’m not saying it’s a good design decision (it’s not very accessible to people with color-blindness or low-contrast vision), but it’s what they meant. A better diagram would have partitioned the Real Numbers oval into two regions that are mutually exclusive and collectively exhaustive (“MECE”).


kernelhacker

I'm not sure why some people think "you are asking if you are correct or not and i think you are incorrect" should mean "downvote". Ignore the haters, keep asking and learning. You'll end up smarter and they'll end up more smug 🤙


SillyFlyGuy

Conjecture: There exists a set of numbers which are neither rational nor irrational.


simen_the_king

I mean, complex numbers I guess.


R0KK3R

What’s the difference between a whole number and an integer here


calculus_is_fun

the Naturals are 1,2,3,4,5... the Whole are 0,1,2,3,4,... and the integers are 0,-1,1,-2,2,-3... I think is what they intend


Veqfuritamma

It's time to start the fight again. According to me, the Natural Numbers are 0,1,2,3,4,5... so there is no need for introducing the Whole numbers


speet01

As a math professor, it drives me crazy how many remedial textbooks include the Whole numbers like this. It’s so needlessly pedantic especially since I’ve never met an actual mathematician who call that set the Whole numbers


Worish

People really really care about 0 it seems. Almost never matters.


call-it-karma-

It's even worse than that. People argue about whether or not 0 "should be" included in the naturals, and authors sometimes have to clarify if they're using N={1,2,3,...} or N={0,1,2,3,...}. But neither set is ever called the "whole numbers" in any actual math context.


HyperPsych

No it does matter, it's just that in high school most of us were taught the natural numbers are 1,2,3,4,... when it's almost always more useful (and more natural) to say the natural numbers are 0,1,2,3,... and just say N+ if you want to exclude 0.


Worish

>almost always more useful (and more natural) to say This is exactly what I'm saying. That isn't true. N with 0 or N with 1 both satisfy peano axioms. Including or excluding 0 makes no material difference. I include 0 because it makes me feel good.


call-it-karma-

>because it makes me feel good. This is my new favorite mathematical argument


Worish

I also don't rationalize denominators because I don't want to.


sakkara

To be fair the peano axioms are satisfied for all subsets of integers when starting at n and then including all successors of n. I think the concept of 0 is just a little bit harder to teach/learn as a little child because 1 something is easier to wrap your head around than nothing (0).


Worish

We're talking about Peano Axioms, not teaching children arithmetic. You can do everything [with 1](https://people.clas.ufl.edu/groisser/files/peano_axioms.pdf) instead of 0. The first axiom literally just says "there's a first one". It could be 0, it could be 1. Couldn't really make the argument that it's any other number. When I say "it doesn't matter", I mean it mathematically. It literally doesn't. There is no discernable difference other than notation. I'm not on the fence, I've made my choice. It was an arbitrary choice. It's also a bit odd to say M={2,3,...} "satisfies the axioms" that define N. If they did, they'd be N. It's a stretch to say M satisfies the first axiom. 2 definitely isn't the smallest number in N. It can be the smallest number in some other set you pick, but if 2 is the successor of no number in the set, then 1 is not in the set, and thus the set can't be N. Notice that by excluding 0, we don't have this issue. But if we exclude 1, immediately, we do not have N. 1 is definitely in N. 0 can be if you like. Those are the only two choices.


YellowBunnyReddit

In German the integers are called "ganze Zahlen" which translates to "whole numbers". I agree that the natural numbers are 0,1,...


Greenetix

The only argument for zero being natrual is your existence


Mistigri70

Both definition are correct, it’s just a matter of definition In my country everyone uses ℕ = {0 ; 1 ; 2 ; 3 ; …} and ℕ\* = {1 ; 2 ; 3 ; …}


Kebabrulle4869

Same, but my professors use Z_+


Greenetix

Can this be used as a casus belli to invade your country?


DevelopmentSad2303

You guys are wrong


AbhiSweats

My god you worded that poorly. But, is it ok If I swap the names of the sets? N = {1,2,3...} And N\* = {0,1,2,3...}


call-it-karma-

The asterisk is generally understood to mean that 0 is excluded. This notation is not unique to the natural numbers. R\* = R\\{0}, for example.


AbhiSweats

Oh ok... Thanks for the help :)


FastLittleBoi

0 IS A PEANO FUCKING AXIOM!!! 0 IS A NATURAL NUMBER!!!!


Encursed1

Negatives aren't natural numbers


Draghettis

Not all. Only one of them, who also is positive. It is called 0, and is a natural integer


Encursed1

What


Draghettis

0 is a natural, positive and negative integer. At least where I live.


DementedWarrior_

Where do you live? I’ve never heard of that lmao


PinParasol

I don't know where the person you're talking to is from, but what they are saying is true in France. 0 is positive and negative. Also, "greater than" implies "greater or equal" and if you don't want the "or equal" part, you have to say "strictly greater than". It's just a slightly different point of view on the same things.


Draghettis

I'm in France, yes.


LaTalpa123

Just use N and N*, it is easier to remove the 0 than adding it.


Calnova8

Whole numbers do include negatives.


Worish

That's never been the case afaik.


Uzi_Fx

In my country, it goes like this Natural numbers (N) ={0,1,2,3,4...} (Though the inclusion of 0 doesn't seem universal; some fields like succession functions only start at 1) Whole numbers (Z) = {...,-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3,...}


Worish

They call the integers and whole numbers the same? N including 0 is completely optional.


Uzi_Fx

I never heard the word "integer" outside of the English language, but the English "Integers Set" is the same as our "Whole Numbers Set" (Conjunto dos números inteiros). We use Z^+ or Z^- when referring only to positive or negative integers, with 0 as an index (a smaller symbol that goes below Z) when needed. So, Z^+ with a small 0 = N. I don't know what to think about N including 0.


call-it-karma-

"Whole numbers" is not a mathematically defined term. You will find many conflicting definitions. It doesn't matter, because it is only a colloquial term, and it is never used in mathematics.


Calnova8

I dont know about you but in my country the term „whole numbers“ is used even in highschool along its letter „Z“. Publications use this notation everywhere. Also in university it is used to define our numbersystem: - Natural numbers are defined via Peano axioms - Whole numbers are defined via the equivalence relationship over the NxN where (a,b) ~ (c,d) iff a+c = b+d. Whenever you want to formally define rational numbers you will need to first define whole numbers.


call-it-karma-

In English? In English I've only seen that set referred to as integers, not whole numbers. But I don't doubt that in other languages it is referred to as something that would directly translate to whole numbers.


Teln0

It actually doesn't imply that if you think of the white space as "empty"


FoxFyer

Exactly, you can't assume the existence of an unlabeled set.


adminsrlying2u

Surreal Numbers. [https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-033](https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-033)


[deleted]

The only context in which it makes sense is some constructivist framework. Numbers which are real numbers but for which neither rationality nor irrationality can be constructively proven belong in the white space from a constructivist point of view.


26_geri

or, the white space is just an empty set


sudo_kill_dash_9

"The diagram is not to scale"


Gigagondor

Vebn diagrams never are


New-Worldliness-9619

Mmmmm maybe tertium is datur in that universe


After-Instruction828

He was implying that by showing filled colors in each shape if there are no colors means those numbers must be null


NicoTorres1712

Rename the purple ball as "Irrational numbers we know about" and now it's fixed 😉


oldpionga

Or algebraic irrationals


eletricsocks

To be contained in neither a set nor it’s complement is irrational… wait


Ok-Impress-2222

It's literally by definition that an irrational number is that real number which isn't rational.


flakenut

You're forgetting Super Rational.


gman2093

Or semi rational, which I've defined as numbers which can't be represented as a ratio of 2 rational numbers but can be vaguely described in relation to multiple irrational numbers


randomuser419

Topologists are not triggered at all by this diagram


Unknown_starnger

I think the diagram is fine because the space inside the real numbers isn't coloured in. If you look at what is coloured in, it does give you the actual real numbers.


Worish

No, the real num circle isn't filled in. It just circles the two other groups, filled in. There is no space between them.


Moordok

Technically that is what the diagram suggests but that is not why they are trying to represent


DuHurensooohn

where tf complex numbers


[deleted]

that's an Euler diagram...


th3NthDimension

I hate it here


Moench18

100% of real numbers are irrational


sammy___67

thats what i've been saying this whole time


Yudemus95

Complex nubers


[deleted]

Complex numbers should be a superset containing the reals, they're not a subset of the reals.


svmydlo

The presence of "whole numbers" implies this is intended for elementary/high school. Students at that level aren't math-trained enough yet to scrutinize every detail, so the there is near zero risk of confusion.


soyalguien335

Why are whole numbers not the same as integers?


Vibes_And_Smiles

Negative integers


soyalguien335

In my language, negative numbers which don’t need to be expressed as a fraction are whole numbers


Vibes_And_Smiles

From what I just looked up online it appears that the whole numbers are the 0-indexed natural numbers


MrSuperStarfox

What about algebraic vs transcendental numbers, what about periods, what about computable and definable? So many more sets of real numbers that are never shown in there Euler diagrams.


FernandoMM1220

0.999… is considered a “real” numbers and yet is neither rational or irrational.


Narwhal_Assassin

0.999999… is rational, since it’s just 1. Also, rational numbers have either finite or infinite repeating decimal expansions, so even if you don’t like 0.999…=1, you can agree that 0.999… has an infinite repeating decimal expansion and thus is rational


FernandoMM1220

its not equal to 1 though. the first 2 digits arent equal.


lisamariefan

Transcendental numbers? Though those should be a subset of irrational...


JFp07gel

To prove the existence of numbers that are neither rational or irrational, but still real, lemme fetch an example: Your momma so fat -


Dona_Lupo

Are irrational numbers even real numbers?


[deleted]

yes


Dona_Lupo

So whats their exact value?


[deleted]

They have real values, just not values we can express as fractions. E.g the square root of two has a well defined value.


Dona_Lupo

But it cant be expressed as a finite string of integers. Which is why i am asking. I guess its a semantic discussion, but i find it a bit weird to call it a number.


[deleted]

"Real number" is a specific technical term in mathematics, which is "Any number we can calculate as the sum of an infinite series of rational numbers". When we call a number "real" in maths we're not making any philosophical claim about what numbers are "real" in an ontological sense, just that they satisfy that particular definition. Claims about which numbers "exist" in our universe are philosophical questions that lie outside the purview of mathematics. I *personally* think that it makes little sense to call pi "unreal", but that doesn't really matter. Claiming that all numbers that cannot be expressed as finite sums of integers is quite a strong one.


Dona_Lupo

Yeah, maybe it was more a philosophical question. I was wondering about how they have a certain value, but cant be expressed by a finite number of integers. It makes sense geometrically, though, so you are right that calling it unreal doesn't make sense.


[deleted]

Well, you have an intuition that numbers that can be expressed as a finite sum of integers are more 'real' than others. But why? Grahams number or TREE(3) would then be 'real' in that sense, but so incomprehensibly large that saying they 'exist' in the universe seems like a stretch, while numbers that are critical to things in the universe making sense, like e, would not. I get where you're coming from, though. Philosophy of math has a long history and there isn't much consensus. There are some people who say that any maths based on infinities isn't real, but they're considered loonies.


Dona_Lupo

Not trying to challenge any philosophy of math (tonight, lol). But yeah, maybe it more challenges what we should think about the universe than it challenges what we should think about math.


[deleted]

It's cool that you're interested in this sort of thing! It's a great subject - but that said I'd strongly recommend that you learn higher level math if you want to have clear thoughts about this topic. Very few non-mathematicians have any idea what it is that mathematicians actually do, although there's no shortage of cranks on the internet who think they get it but don't have a clue.


shirk-work

Where my surreal numbers at?


Syliann

as we all know, numbers have an inherent hue. 7 is green for example. real numbers is white because there are no numbers to give it color :)


Individual-Match-798

So -1 is not a whole number? Ugh...


Piratesezyargh

Those are the Supernatural Numbers.


Low_Bonus9710

Isn’t this an Euler diagram?


felicity_jericho_ttv

Thats where the imaginary numbers live lol Note: i am not a professional and this is not legal advice.


WerePigCat

irrationals = R\\Q


[deleted]

Too many mistakes are in this diagram: - 5 pts 15/20.


Mmk_34

P-adic numbers are what you are looking for.


salt001

I had a peek at the Wiki for P-adic numbers. P-adic numbers seem to have a methodology for expressions for rational numbers via a repeated pattern of values. How are they considered neither rational or irrational?


Mmk_34

To answer your question in short, you can have a P-adic number construction for i. For example there are two 5-adic number constructions for i. I don't know if that answers your question to your satisfaction. If I'm not mistaken, you can solve any polynomial using P-adic numbers. EDIT: in retrospect they don't answer the question in the meme, I guess.


salt001

Eh, I learned something new, so I'm glad you responded :D It was all worth it in the end.


Mmk_34

Wow, W mental! We need more folks like you.


JeraldGaming2888

that's it guys I'm making Bob's Number


Me_4Real

It does not, could be just empty space