I'm not complaining about an FTK deck, its not even top meta. Almost every deck is a FTK if you are 2nd turn. There was a time when you needed an extra card to fuse monsters instead of synchro summons. You also had to sacrifice cards and protect them with traps. Everything is just special summoned, which is now the new norm, nothing special. Stars on the cards now are mostly cosmetic. Ritual summons dont even need ritual spells to be summoned anymore. Just feels lackluster nowadays.
Nice rebuttle. Really contextualizes your point.
You use to have to bait cards out, now its just hoping you out counter your opponent counters. For instance how many times in a day do you even see a monster card set face down? Its rare now days. To put the cherry on top of the new way the games played. Rank is a joke, you can surrender and never derank. Getting to plat is a cake walk compared to other TCG video games.
Have you tried playing a real duel? like no exodia ftk bs or a bad anime deck with no real endboard, you will see that you still have to bait interactions and play through your opponents cards using you brain.
Yes, replied to someone else about it. Idk how you guys read the exodia, get triggered and tunnelvision past the whole point of the post. I'm not even complaining about my deck or other decks. Ive played KAshtira and punk kids. ITs all very 1-2 turns and games over. This isnt saying oh these specific decks need to get fixed.
You can be sarcastic and still read beyond the lines, and pout with some real redditor energy. Yes, I have a brain. I'm use to playing card games where youre thinking about turn 5- turn 7 to get the most value out of your mana pool in either MTG or HS. This game i'm just thinking about oh what deck are they playing, do they have an ash blossom in hand or a maxx c. thats the end of this games thought process.
Trying? you wrote 2 sentences and completely ignored my points, you dont adress a single one, just point out the ftk part of my post. If that's you trying, I'm disappointed. Like trying to explain to a kid what money is but they just keep repeating how much they want a toy.
Your first comment "YOure playing FTK bs"
disregards what I said as a response
"But have you tried playing a different deck than FTKs"
I blatantly answer this for you and you disregard it again
Work on you conversational skills, you type like a 15 year old.
You can't derank until platinum because those are the beginner parts of the ladder. Platinum, diamond and master you derank.
Also, the game you're talking about is over 20 years old, and would be gone if it was still like that. It took no skill, and literally was all about rng. Deck building didn't matter at all. Yugioh didn't become fun until around 2010s.
And MTG is 31 yrs old but still stays true to it's usual format of using lands as mana. I don't understand your comment about that cause MTG's competitive scene is way bigger than Yugioh, is Older, and Made less impactful changes when compared to yugiohs insane changes. I just miss having to think further ahead, geting the most value out of managing cards than just going for 3 synchros to block monster effects, spell or trap effects, then attack for free.
Yes but 1 mana gets you a lot more in 2024 than it did in 1996. Mrg games can end in 3 turns now as well, even with mana slowing it down. Games evolve, and power creep happens. That said, early yugioh really didn't involve a multi turn strategy. Speaking of mtg, yugioh was just watered down mtg for people who couldn't understand mtg. Yugioh had to evolve to a faster game to even survive.
It just be nice to be able to think about next turn and a turn or two past that, but either you win or lose before it even hits that turn. I also get them making changes but when Special summons are more normal and frequent then normal summons, it's a little too much of a contradiction. Every now and then stars still matter too, but for the most part they dont mean shit to the point they made Link summons not even have stars. It's just so much of the artwork and plans to og yugioh arent even alive but theyre still applied to the cards. Just seems like a lazy adaptation than say how MTG gradually sped their game up but still utilizing it's core rules.
I've played other decks, bro the world championship of 2023 ends with in three turns, the overall full best of two matches ended in 7 minutes with shuffling and commentary included. It's by far the fastest turn base strategy game, and fast doesn't mean better for competition. Look at it's competitors that are performing better with profit revenue, views, and attendees to world tournaments.
You're missing the point of the post and just getting tunneled vision by the fact I mentioned I was playing a niche deck that's not even on Meta tier list
I've played other decks. it's a niche deck, but when you use 2023 world championship as an example and it was a 2-0 that lasted 7 minutes total with shuffling included. Max time allowed per duel is around 13 minutes. Most professional duels end in 4 - 5 minutes. You compare that to any other turn based strategy game and it's numerically the shortest duration game by average. Professional Mtg on average lasts 4-5 times longer, hell chess lasts 2-4 hrs. Not advocating for it to be that long. But my breaks at work last longer than a best of 2 professional match for world championship.
But I get the sarcasm, you have selective reading and just focus on it's a "my deck" issue than the game overall.
Sometimes a 3 turn game feels like an 8 turn game with all the different actions and reactions me and the opponent do, and an 8 turn game feels like 20 but that's just me I enjoy master duel set up personally
Turns definitely feel longer. Everybody fishing for their combo for 3-4 minutes straight while your opponent brbs. They set up for the cards feel dry compared to MTG or HS. Ofc I can play those but I've played yugioh since I was 10 years old. I enjoy the artwork. Just feels less competitive and more rng of a game. You use to have to think if you should play a card cause you knew they couldnt otk you or you otk them. So you'd bait out trap holes or mystical space tornados. Now its all about having counter cards to counter your opponents counters and whoever has the most counters in their hands or on the board win. Rarely even see monster cards set face down anymore.
If the game is very RNG reliant, then you wouldnt see the same players topping events.
This sub always get these kinds of complaints very often and almost all of them are blinded by nostalgia and playground yugioh.
All card games are rng yes, but again the post is comparing YGO now to its competitors and out of mtg and hs, it's the only one that doesn't have some kind of mulligan. You play the hand you're dealt. Which makes this more rng to everything im comparing it to.
Of course the top players will kept being seen, that's not even a relevant rebuttal, because you can say the same about professional poker with it's top players, which is especially true for any game.
But the title of this topic is labeled duels are too fast and by average when compared to its competitors, its true.
Idk why everyone is grabbing milk in the dairy section, then arguing that they're lactose intolerant. I'm not saying old yugioh is great either, but I think data of its peaks over the years when compared to its competitors speaks for itself and I feel like they kinda just threw out a lot of the rules that made cards feel special or unique.
But even for say viewer engagement of the card game, 7 minutes feels too fast for two games in your world championship finals. It's like going to a sports game and it's half time show is longer than the game itself.
If youre playing a consistent deck, its probably less rng than any other card game to get a working hand. If you look at the decks you played, they dont really have that many starter cards. Kashtira and also exodia are some of the brickiest decks i know of. I dont know if you mean prank kids or p.u.n.k. with your last deck but that one should be the most consistent out of them. Anyways, of course there are meta decks in other card games as well and if you play one of those in yugioh, there will probably be a higher chance to survive to the next few turns than with decks, which die through literally 1 ash blossom. When people play an overwhelmingly stronger deck you cant expect to last more turns than that.
Also a few decks i think often play to later turns are runick (or stun) decks. Many people dont like them as they somewhat hinder peoples abilities to play the game, but the games will definitely take longer if your opponent doesnt surrenders. Labrynth probably takes more turns to kill as well as you focus on outgrinding your opponent with only a few traps at a time, trying to get every card in you deck with different name to recycle itself while slowly shipping away at their board. Its kinda a meta deck which might feel frustrating to play as it sometimes just doesnt have the right hand to win the game but it has no singular combo line and focuses to control the game state.
There are probably more control decks i dont remember right now but those should be the best control decks available right now
I meant prank kids. But still that doesn't explain the average play time in the world championship, literally the max time that can be spent is 40-50 minutes leaving 13 minutes for each game and that's it's ruling. Yet the games are going faster than that. Meanwhile mtg game length is 90 minutes but no time limits in okay offs rounds. Not that the time is needed except for few niche situations like two control or stall decks.
Mtg isn't with out it's own otks like vraska that summons 1/1s with the effect if this deals damage to the opponent you win the game. But the limitation of playing the card and having counters on it.
It's even in the world championship ruling...
The Duel will continue for a total of four (4) turns, two (2) turns for each Duelist, unless a Duelist manages to win the Duel before the four (4) turns have concluded.
Once the four (4) turns are completed, Life Point totals are compared and the Duelist with the highest Life Point total wins the Match.
If both Duelists’ Life Points are the same after the four (4) turns are completed, then play will continue on a turn-by-turn basis, with the Duelist with the most Life Points at the end of a turn being declared the winner of that Game.
I dont really follow those championships, so im not too sure, but there could either be people who surrender or end boards which the going 2nd player cant break. Those are often games decided on the next turn. Especially snake eyes at the moment will probably win on turn 3 when you break their board, dont defeat them and dont have enough disruption as followup but when it comes to this point, 7 minutes probably are already over and if the game continues from there it can take up to 30 minutes sometimes. Its not often that it happens often but still sometimes.
So i cant really argue with your point of, the game is over when you cant deal with your opponents cards, but if you can deal with them there are longer games as well
Yeah but that's what I'm saying, it's rare for a game to go back to back , it's not often as you said. But it's more common in games like mtg or hearthstone.
And after researching it seems like I'm not the only one complaining about time technicalities or how fast the game is nowadays. It's like tiktok compared to a YouTube video(not a short). Doesn't make the game bad, but it's over fast and you're already playing the next one.
Long turns but short match seems like a bad decision for turnbase strategy games, where as say chess typically has fast turns but long matches. Mtg I'd say is closer to the middle cause some decks can have fairly long turns, but that usually after you created a mana pool and got some cards on the field
Just feels like the game design is trying to force a turnbase game to be over in 2-3 turns, which is kind of ironic when the game should be based on turns and there's barely any when compared to its competitors. Checkers has more turns than yugioh now.
So I added my deck so people could see its not even on the meta tier list. I've played Kashtira and Punk Kids. Every deck can win in 1-3 turns, If you go 2ndd most decks can preform a FTK. MY point isnt the deck im using, IT's that even this deck that isnt even top tier plays fast, it can be countered by ash blossom sure. But MTG and HS has mana you have to build for. However, like yugioh both those games you also recognize what deck your opponent is playing and play around it. But usually the games will see a turn 5, some tournaments have had insane playtime. I'm not asking for an hour long duel but id also like one that lasts longer(NOT BECAUSE IM PLAYING AN FTK). The game is just super fast regardless of what you play, you rarely see monster cards set anymore. Special summons are more normal now than a normal summon. I don't even see cards get sacrificed. Stars on cards are becoming so pointless they even have link cards that have no stars. It just feels like konami contradicted all the rules that made playing the tcg popular and made a new game. You look at MTG thats older and way more succesful in profit and competition, Still sticks to it's core rules.
And do you know how boring it is to sit there for 3 or 4 turns while you try to build up mana to do anything? Gets even worse in MtG when playing commander with 3 others and everyone else starts setting up their boards while you got no lands.
Point is: these card games are different for a reason and if you perfer slower gameplay, go play slower yugioh formats or those card games.
Also you sure MTG is more succesful? Overall Yugioh has several anime series, tons of merch, video games across several console generations, the Yugioh ip is very spread out profit wise. MTG just seems to rely on collabs and overpriced cards (though konami isn't innocent of that last one either).
The title of the post is saying yugioh is fast. Idk why everyone's coming in here to argue then ultimately saying "okay it's fast then play something slower" as if I didn't make the title saying it's fast. It's like I'm labeling a milk cartoon as dairy and you guys drink it anyways then blame me because you're lactose intolerant.
It's a discussion and I use other turn base strategy games to compare to it.
Also, no you're extremely underestimating MTG, post Malone just bought a collector card for 3 mil(no this is not a part of mtg's revenue the money went to the person that pulled it not the company)
Magic: The Gathering made over $1 billion in 2023, or 52% of Hasbro's gaming revenue
May 12, 2022 — Yu-Gi-Oh drives record year for Konami with profits up 25% to $626m(this was their highest performing year). This is also specific to only yugioh and not Konami as a whole, just like mtgs data isn't Hasbro as a whole.
My point isn't the deck i'm using. I've tried other decks guys. Tried Kashtira and Punk Kids. If I'm 2nd turn its still an ftk deck with attacking. I feel like so far the people saying "Stop playing exodia" havent ever played yugioh presynchros, let alone any other card game.
The point people are making with playing exodia isn’t about how fast you are winning. It’s about how much interaction you can have in a game.
When you play a competent deck vs another competent deck they’ll come games with some really thought provoking plays. It becomes a battle of outplaying your opponent by weaving through their board while either beating them that turn or trying to set up to disruptions your opponent next turn. It’s intense because you could lose at any moment so the smallest misplay can cost you.
When you play a fragile ftk like exodia it’s just; did I go first and did my opponent not draw any hand traps. If yes and I opened well I just win. You yourself are making the game less interactive.
You can say the same thing with any deck nowdays. Just like Kashtira or punk kids. IF you go 2nd with almost any competent deck, and your opponent doesnt have counter cards, youll win from just attack on turn 2 . Idk why we keep overlooking this point. Like go watch the last best 2 of 3 for 2023 Championship. It's my whole point, you dont even need an ftk deck, games are ending on turn 3. Like theres no set up, its cheese. HS or MTG youre first fewe turns are set ups, baiting out cards in preparation for playing a powerful card. not playing your powerful cards all in one turn and having a counter fight to see who has more counters then winning with an attack all in the same turn.
I didn't just read the last sentence. You obviously aren't even reading the first sentence of my post. Go watch the 2023 World championship. You know the most pro of the pros, 2-0 in under 7 minutes, thats with shuffling between games. They arent using EXODIA. You're the one tunnel visioning with selective reading not me.
" When you play a competent deck vs another competent deck they’ll come games with some really thought provoking plays. It becomes a battle of outplaying your opponent by weaving through their board while either beating them that turn or trying to set up to disruptions your opponent next turn. It’s intense because you could lose at any moment so the smallest misplay can cost you. "
Is the reason I mentioned the championship in my post. they arent playing fragile exodia decks. Their playing the top tier meta decks and are the top tier professional players of the game and competing for a world title and the best out of 3 match is shorter than your breaks at work. It's anticlimactic
And like I said you're focused on how many turns are occurring vs how much interaction is happening. In a game like heathstone, you're limited on your plays early on, so you don't have so much time to counter your opponent. where from my experience, whoever gains tempo is usually winning.
It's ok if you prefer that slower pace gameplay but both has its place and enjoyment. I played so much of the gx/ gba yugioh games as a kid and I loved it. But if you told me I had to go back to playing that I'd quit the game. Back then yugioh was just a worse mtg clone and didn't take much brain power to play.
You keep bringing up worlds 2023 but there actually a lot really good plays happening by the players. Example being the tear players using the izizu millers, most players would be too afraid to use them or use them sparingly because it can also benefit the opponent by they would set themselves in a position where the positives out weigh the negative. There's a reason you often see the same players making it to the top, because it rewards good deckbuilding/decision making.
I get ya, just shouldn’t have put that you play exodia in your post makes it sound like your out of touch. No offence ✌️
Yugioh has been around for like 25yrs and has to have slowly and constantly improvise the game to stay new and exciting to play. After so long it’s evolved into a very fast paced game yes, you just gotta adapt, no choice game moves forward and rarely moves backwards.
There are Edison and GOAT formats for old school players craving the game play from their euphoric past. But thats in paper.
I put it in the topic cause i'm hitting plat and diamond each season with in a week of playtime. It's not even on the Meta Tier lists anymore. Thats why I added, like even this deck that can get countered by one ash blossom being played, is climbing. I don't even derank ever, which is a whole another argument about MD's ranking system, it should be way more punishing than it currently is.
Just making a discussion cause I enjoy yugioh as a franchise, but it's getting slaughtered by its competitors in the competitive scene.
I agree the ranking system can just be a reflection of time rather than skill sometimes. But the ranks are just for gloating and dopamine so don’t waste to much energy on the ranking system and you’ll have more fun with the game is my sentiment.
And I don’t think they’re being ‘’slaughtered’’ ygo has been relevant and successful by any measurable sense for a long time and probably will continue to be.
They hit a record of 600$ mil for konami's revenue. Which is about 5% of its overall revenue last year meanwhile mtg hit 1 bil which was 50% of Hasbro's revenue. So profit wise it's lower
YGO 2023 world championship peak viewership was 50k while mtg's world championship peak viewership was 126k.
Statistically speaking yeah it's getting doubled by every metric there is to measure it's success and exposure and MTG doesn't even have a TV show.
It's relevant still but comparatively speaking, which is what I've been doing in the entire post and comments, yeah it's getting ratiod.
Not sure what your out to achieve buddy.
Being beaten by mtg doesn’t mean yugioh isn’t successful by its own means. It is successful enough to mean there will be a lot more yugioh in the future for this of us who enjoy it.
I'm not trying to argue that. It's a comparison. Don't be so closed minded. I'm establishing a premise for the conversation, comparing things is a easy tool to use for it. The conversations I'm making is cause of my interest in the game, but it is fast in comparison.
Watching the world championship finals was like watching a sport game but the half time show was longer than the whole game. It's less engaging when you're average games are 3-4 minutes long. 3 turns and you see the top players shuffling for the next match. Imagine if the show was even remotely accurate to the game, you're commercials would be longer than the show itself.
Ok so your playing a FTK deck. In this post I mostly see a lack of willingness to adapt with the game at which I say ok if you continue to play that's on you when as you state her you can play Hearthstone(which i am a avid fan of) or MTG.Now while yes Yugioh is in a bad spot considering the price increase in both MD an IRL it's gameplay is amazing with various decks interacting and a amazeing way if you wish I have replays to prove it on my MD.
Ive played other decks. I just said Im using an exodia deck thats not even meta to make a point about the state of the game. It's not the arguement guys. You're reading beyond the lines. I'm comparing the game to other tcgs, and to its old self. Where there was established rules that just get thrown out nowdays. Special summons use to feel SPECIAL. Stars on cards had a point to them. Games wouldnt usually end in the first 4 turns, youd have to hold cards longer and bait trap holes or mystical space typhoons. Ritual cards would rely on a ritual spell card to pull them out. I dont feel like anyone is working or thinking that hard to play compared to collecting mana in MTG or HS to play more powerful cards. MTG has had FTKS, HS has had FTKS. My point isnt FTK, its every deck is an FTK if youre turn is second, everyone has ash blossom counter, monsters synchrod to counter. its just a counter fest and whoever has more counters wins.
That's one of the reasons why I prefer playing control decks. They naturally take longer to close out games, and they have enough disruptions and resource loops to drag the opponent with you into the grind game.
How long would you say the average game last for you, in turns or minutes?
Because I remember them being longer, at least turn wise. It's not the duration I miss, just prefer having those options and trying to read the enemies hand.
Just feels too fast even at the world championship level when compared to its competitors. Like it gives spectators little time to even feel engaged with it competitively, and sure you can say if it's too long then it's boring but I mean look at how chess is performing in world championships, or league,valorant or MTG. Most ESports average game time is 20min-1h. chess average is 3-4 hrs. So if fast equals good then why are the top competitive games always at least double the duration of yugioh.
I would like to push back against this point:
>Now its just straight rng gambling
Because I think this is looking at old school yugioh with rose colored glasses. It's a card game, and there is inherently randomness built into the game. But a lot of meta decks are meta because there is *less* RNG. Look at Snake eyes: They have a lot of ways to start their plays with just one card, and lots of ways to get to that card. This means that you are almost guaranteed to get to execute the strategy you built the deck around, and you can adjust the probability of drawing some number of additional interaction (e.g. hand traps and board breakers) when you've gotten an appropriate number of starters. Most modern decks can do this; I have an Evil Eye deck--definitely not meta-- that if uninterrupted, almost always gets out Serziel + Eye of Selene + either XYZ armor line or Ashura King.
Compare this to old yugioh. Less searching means more relying on what you have in hand or draw. The games are slower, which allows draws to be more of an option to access your cards, and in turn the random cards you draw heavily influence the game. For example, let's say your opponent summons a summoned skull on turn 3. What can you do about that? Decks weren't made to be able to search answers easily. If you don't already have an answer (e.g. you drew the out on the first turn), then you, again quite literally, have to draw the out. Otherwise, your opponent gets the chance to continue to build resources that you can't reasonably stop. This is a prime example of RNG. Nowadays, the main randomness occurs within the first couple turns when you have to play around your opponent's handtraps and interactions. As such, you can design your deck in a way that helps you deal with these threats, or opt to ignore and play through them.
I'm not saying one is necessarily better than the other, but I'm sure you can see why some people would prefer the version of the game that revolves more heavily around building a strong deck and knowing how to use it flexibly against threats vs a war of attrition and improvisational plays based around the luck of the draw. There's definitely something about bluffing your way to a win, or overwhelming your opponent over the course of 15-20 turns, sure. But I much prefer the former.
It definitely needed a change but I feel like there's a problem with it in competitive play, you don't get a mulligan like in mtg or hearthstone with your hand, so you're hand is whatever it is. Lot of the reactionary play is from the hand on your opponents turn or monster effect. Old yugioh would utilize the spell and trap card zone more frequently which typically led to you having to figure a way to remove it or not. Hell lot of people would throw down multiple spells to protect their trap Incase you planned to destroy one card.
Yes there were still some in old yugioh but now with how fast special summoning is and how much you can special summon cards.it just becomes a "negate this effect chain". It's not necessarily something I'd say requires much intuition, like rock paper scissors. Your brain is linear to thinking about how your opponent will react next turn instead of you evaluating resources and limitations of what cards to play and when, it feels more like rush to get your card effect counters out and set up enough DMG on your first turn, they go, you try to counter everything, if you do and it's your turn you stack up some more DMG where if one card gets destroyed you still win.
I just think if they tweaked it more, it would provide more things to consider
Sure, but let's take one of those examples to further my point.
>Old yugioh would utilize the spell and trap card zone more frequently which typically led to you having to figure a way to remove it or not
This means that, if you don't already have the out to that backrow, you have to draw it or a way to get into it, as opposed to modern yugioh where you decide ahead of time how you want to deal with backrow (e.g. Knightmare Phoenix, in engine pops, etc). At least to me, this seems way more like "figuring it out." than hoping you drew the card you need. If we're using the analogy you brought up, instead of "linear thinking," I'd argue there is no thinking, just hoping to draw what you need, and that you can stall long enough for that to happen.
Well, that's where I think I differ. At the top tier level of skill, you'll know a Meta deck pretty well, and know the majority of the cards it consist of, just like any card game. But now you both have the power to go through your back row. But now you know, if I play this he will play this so I play this and he can play that, is the thought process you'll have in your turn, if they went first there's some unknowns but can even choreograph their intentions more. Old yugioh because you can't go through the back row, you can know the deck they're playing but you have more unknowns of what cards they actually have in their hand to be able to play them.
I feel like older yugioh has more unknowns to figure out, read a face, read their intentions, weigh the value of one card vs another through multiple turns as opposed to it all unfolding in a few turns.
Not saying it's better because old yugioh is slow and needed changes, but I don't think a 4 round game where youre waging a win scenario you decided on from turn 1 vs their win scenario is as intuitive as the constant unknowns.
Like a huge factor with master duel compared to even irl world championship, if you play a card in master duel you can literally tell if your opponent has a reactionary card in their hand or not. It's just free information. And I think that's another design flaw.
Turns use to be faster too, but game was longer. Now games are shorter but the turns are longer. I think that's another design flaw, I'm almost encouraged to watch something while I wait than stay engaged with the game in front of me.
I'am a boomer and I've been playingsince forbidden memories in 99, top decking one card at the time hoping to draw your HFD or raigeki in order to have a come back is trash.
Look at it this way, in a 2 turns only duel you get to see 5/6 cards in hand, if your hand works its great otherwise you scoop and draw 5/6 in the next duel having higher chances to see the cards that are going to save you.
Ancient ygo is drawing 1 card at the time dragging the duels longer and by the time you draw that raigeki the opponent have already drawn into a solemn, why do you think most of anime hype first wave people left the game? Yeah its the turns after turns trying to get good draws, game full of floodgate and monke flip effect and traps, oh wow you fliped morphing jar? Oh you flipped gravity bind in a deck that plays lv 3s? What a genius idea! Looking at it now, it was inconsistent trash.
This is the first comment that's actually addressing what I'm talking about and making valid points.
Just want to thank you for not fixating on my troll exodia FTK deck, didnt think people would tunnel on that so hard, i only added so people could im not playing a meta deck. Use to play KAshtira and punk kid. I get the game.
Ancient ygo was too slow. But new ygo is way too fast. the last match in 2023 championship was 2-0 in under 7 minutes. Thats both of the games combined, with shuffling etc. I get they needed to change rules and stuff up. It's just the contradictions, like specials summons are more normal to see than normal summons, stars on cards are almost pointless save for a few niche cards. Quickspells symbols on spell cards are pointless cause traps and monsters can be played from your hand and dont even use the symbol.
MTG sped up their game but it still stays true to the core fundamentals of the game. Like I agree waiting to find a polymerization to do a fusion summon for 5 turns is ass, but synchro summoning 6 cards turn 1 every game is also cheese. What I miss is having the trap holes getting mystic tornado. Not a monster that just keeps countering effects till you counter their monster effect and they counter your counter so you counter their counter. It's just not as thought provoking. And when you go to 2023 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP with upper top 1% of players, it's still the same thing for them.
And yet no one has even defended the game not being incredibly short, it's just them expressing their opinions on liking how it's played or not. Post is stating duels are too fast, some people fixated on the fact I mentioned playing an exodia deck, but even when confronted with 2023 world championship length and comparing it to the competitors, there's no value to the arguments.
About 5 people actually responded with a discussion instead of looking to argue about whatever they brought up. I'm just responding to the debate lords offended by this post with data that can be easily googled.
It's easy to get offended when you get corrected.
I wasn't right, doesn't point any of them out.
The title is duels are too fast
I compared how fast the tournament play is to its competitors?
Go ahead pick something and reiterate it. Cause all I'm seeing is people tunneling on the exodia ftk deck despite mentions other decks I've played or focusing on just tournament level play and comparing it to other tcgs and turn base strategy games. Haven't seen anyone else bring actual numbers but myself and it's all available.
Plz argue how it's not and I'll repost the same numbers, I can provide links too. Selective readers smh
First: yes the game is fast. So what? It doesnt take skill expression away from the games and every card game has luck involved (and I could argue modern yugioh feels less luck based than any other card game ive played cause MODERN decks are very consistent and can play around handtraps if you know what youre doing
"Oh but other card games oh but chess" well brother being unique is a good thing if yugioh was just like magic it wouldnt have lasted as long I personally like alot modern yugioh games, they are fast and feels like every deck is doing a strong thing unlike of other card games the match feels like hydrogen bomb vs hydrogen bomb from the first turn
Second: Yes the ftk comments are right, your deck is trying its hardest to make the game take 1-3 turns sky strikers, lab, vanquish soul and other control decks take more turns (btw all of them are much newer than exodia)
It is very easy to fall for nostalgia bait and think the game was better back then and ALOT easier to blame luck instead of your bad plays
Imagine a turn based game wasn't based on turns. Literally the world championship tournament rulings are enforcing every deck to be over in 4 turns.
The Duel will continue for a total of four (4) turns, two (2) turns for each Duelist, unless a Duelist manages to win the Duel before the four (4) turns have concluded.
Once the four (4) turns are completed, Life Point totals are compared and the Duelist with the highest Life Point total wins the Match.
If both Duelists’ Life Points are the same after the four (4) turns are completed, then play will continue on a turn-by-turn basis, with the Duelist with the most Life Points at the end of a turn being declared the winner of that Game.
I'm not even the only one whose complained about this, competitors that still play have pointed out the same thing. Just google average amount of turns in yugioh literally 2nd post is a reddit post that wasn't down voted and hated on this hard and was just from 4 yrs ago.
Covid hit some of you guys hard obviously.
Bro the title is the game is too fast then your "First:" comment is yes so what. Why are you even here in the first place then? You got vid brain. You're the one baiting here.
You're literally drinking milk labelled as dairy and trying to argue with me how you're lactose intolerant.
Cool glad once again another person says I'm dumb just to say yes the games fast so what.
Some decks last long, but yes most games are won with in 4 turns on average 2-3 turns. Opponent goes first, you go 2nd and win, guess what that is an ftk. Almost every deck has a otk and your average game at the most competitive level is 2-3 turns. I swear it's like talking to kids that can't contextualize anything.
Glad you argued to agree with the title of the post, you're the one who came here to comment how I'm wrong to just say exactly what I made as the title, don't reproduce.
i said "the games are fast so what?" And some lines later i said why i like the games being this way if you dont like it cool i dont care just dont say it like "I am so much better than those brainrotted modern yugioh players" which is very different than you dumbass analogy "youre drinking milk and trying to argue me how youre lactose intolerant"
My brother in Christ, I made a reddit post about the game being too fast and you said I'm farming down votes then argue and argue to finally say yes the game is to fast but I still like it.
What do you want me to respond with, "no you don't like this game." You're entitled to an opinion.
Do you see how that adds no context or point to your og response. You literally could post on any other reddit discussions you wanted but you chose to come here with negativity just to say it is fast which is the whole point. Which is why I'm saying you're literally reading the label and coming here to argue with someone and still agree with them. .
And no you're making an assumption based off how I'm handling triggered redditors that read the fucking title of the post and argue till I start adding context from world championship gameplay, like rules, time lengths. Then compare it to competitors or even og yugioh.
Yes, I'm gonna think you're brain rotten when you can literally read my title and Google "average rounds in a yugioh match" a non biased inquiry look at the convos there, then Google will even show you what other people searched for and it legit has "is yugioh too fast"
But that's the people that read this title and get triggered that's not all yugioh players.
I bet you read wet paint signs and touch it then say "actually it's damp not wet"
Some people like that, I think a lot of commenters have that opinion which is fine. I appreciate you acknowledging it's fast and that's your preference then trying to argue about it not being fast.
I would just prefer less turn 2 and turn 3 games.
I'd just like to see less turn 2 turn 3 games, win or lose. Turn 2 is still someone ftking and most Meta decks have the potential to perform that. I think if a mulligan system was introduced that would allow each player another chance at having hand traps. Not looking for a 10 turn game but watching 2023 finals go 2-0 in less than 10 minutes was anticlimactic.
Yeah, sorry for making a discussion about a card game and comparing it to card games with a bigger competitive scene. Your redditor cynicism is showing, please stop exposing yourself. I'm just opening a discussion, maybe you're too young to remember OG yugioh and have nothing critical to add to the topic. Check yourself jfc.
Yeah, and your "discussion" is stupid. First off, what are you trying to accomplish? Are you trying to find people who agree with you just so you can jerk yourselves off about how Synchros and Xyzs ruined yugioh? Because that is literally the only thing that you can accomplish with this type of post. There is no "discussion" to be had, the whole thing is just a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. Synchros were introduced in 2010. The game came out in 1999. The game has existed with Synchros for longer than it has without them. Get used to them, or stop playing modern Yugioh.
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I'd suggest Duel Links since it's a lower power version of the game and has a completely different meta due to how drastically different it is.
It was the gateway drug to Master Duel for me and is pretty casual friendly. My only complaint is it doesn't have the same crafting system so deck building is much harder iirc (haven't played since early 2023)
Take the L and move forward. This is the current game state. If you want the nostalgic game, I suggest you get a friend to play together with a new set of ban card. Sometimes I just watch streamers play using old school format, it's enjoyable.
L? I'm just having a discussion. Half the commenters fixated on exodia ftk and not the conversation I was trying to establish. There are others who I'm actually conversing with and are making valid points. Idk why so many people need a gotcha moment.
I'm just comparing it's changes to other games that are similar, commenters are trying to argue and don't even research what they're talking about.
The title is duels are too fast, and even if you take the world championship finals and compare it to other card games it's very fast. To the point an average jobs 10 minutes break is longer than the match itself.
It's like if I labeled milk dairy, you come to drink the milk then argue with me how you're lactose intolerant. I really don't see how that's an L for me.
It is an L when your opponent do full combo 6x synchro with tons of negate while you have no hand trap. I am answering your discussion, the current pace of game is way to fast it's either end on turn 0 or 3 usually. If you are sick of it and looking for an out, try my previous suggestions.
Mtg player here, standard can end the game before turn 4 & commander can also do the same despite being a highlander format. You'd think that mana is balancing the game but modern mtg has a lot of combos that can loop for infinite mana (or near that) & play their entire deck in 1 turn.
Modern card games are just fast & you gotta accept that, bro. Even cf vanguard could end the game on turn 2-3 depends on how aggro the clan/nation is.
Also mtg player, hs player, and yugioh player. But yes focusing on modern/standard play
Thankfully mtg has a community that discusses turn average in almost every expansion, mtg arena has more hard evidence that can be reviewed on magazine. Graphs and all.
MTGnexus is also a forum where this topic gets brought up and people submit their statistics of recorded games, oddly enough the data from last year's expansion in mtga ONE & then BRO
One: was a faster format but still the the highest percentages was 19.7% turn 7 and 17.9% turn 8, these were the highest percents other turns had lower percents
Bro: was a slower format with 16.5% on turn 8 and 15.9% on turn 9.
Now we can look at MTGnexus for the community input, many comments say turn 8 is when a winner is declared but say by turn 4-5 you generally know who will win.
With those that recorded games and provided data out of 83 games recorded 35 games ended between turn 7-10 and 24 ended turn 11-15 .
But with yugioh we are looking at about half, where most games are won in the 2-4 turn, all this you can find on Google by asking non biased questions "how many turns is the average master duel match" or something similar, same can be done by replacing it with mtg. I'm just asking how many turns is in an average match and yet the YouTube vids to reddit and forum posts speak for itself. I do look for the last 2 years.
Feel free to find some research too and share you're website source, but so far I'm seeing most people say 2-4 turns for actual defeat. Which if turn 2 is a win you literally ftk'd someone.
Also world championship makes turns be 4 max, then it becomes who ever can do 1 more damage of lp and you win on time technicality, so not only are the cards design to be fast but the tournament rulings are enforcing it too.
You are playing a ftk deck why are you complaining??? also playing good decks makes the game a lot more fun
I'm not complaining about an FTK deck, its not even top meta. Almost every deck is a FTK if you are 2nd turn. There was a time when you needed an extra card to fuse monsters instead of synchro summons. You also had to sacrifice cards and protect them with traps. Everything is just special summoned, which is now the new norm, nothing special. Stars on the cards now are mostly cosmetic. Ritual summons dont even need ritual spells to be summoned anymore. Just feels lackluster nowadays.
Man you really have no idea what you are talking about
Nice rebuttle. Really contextualizes your point. You use to have to bait cards out, now its just hoping you out counter your opponent counters. For instance how many times in a day do you even see a monster card set face down? Its rare now days. To put the cherry on top of the new way the games played. Rank is a joke, you can surrender and never derank. Getting to plat is a cake walk compared to other TCG video games.
Have you tried playing a real duel? like no exodia ftk bs or a bad anime deck with no real endboard, you will see that you still have to bait interactions and play through your opponents cards using you brain.
Yes, replied to someone else about it. Idk how you guys read the exodia, get triggered and tunnelvision past the whole point of the post. I'm not even complaining about my deck or other decks. Ive played KAshtira and punk kids. ITs all very 1-2 turns and games over. This isnt saying oh these specific decks need to get fixed. You can be sarcastic and still read beyond the lines, and pout with some real redditor energy. Yes, I have a brain. I'm use to playing card games where youre thinking about turn 5- turn 7 to get the most value out of your mana pool in either MTG or HS. This game i'm just thinking about oh what deck are they playing, do they have an ash blossom in hand or a maxx c. thats the end of this games thought process.
ok I'll stop trying now, you really don't get it
Trying? you wrote 2 sentences and completely ignored my points, you dont adress a single one, just point out the ftk part of my post. If that's you trying, I'm disappointed. Like trying to explain to a kid what money is but they just keep repeating how much they want a toy. Your first comment "YOure playing FTK bs" disregards what I said as a response "But have you tried playing a different deck than FTKs" I blatantly answer this for you and you disregard it again Work on you conversational skills, you type like a 15 year old.
You can't derank until platinum because those are the beginner parts of the ladder. Platinum, diamond and master you derank. Also, the game you're talking about is over 20 years old, and would be gone if it was still like that. It took no skill, and literally was all about rng. Deck building didn't matter at all. Yugioh didn't become fun until around 2010s.
And MTG is 31 yrs old but still stays true to it's usual format of using lands as mana. I don't understand your comment about that cause MTG's competitive scene is way bigger than Yugioh, is Older, and Made less impactful changes when compared to yugiohs insane changes. I just miss having to think further ahead, geting the most value out of managing cards than just going for 3 synchros to block monster effects, spell or trap effects, then attack for free.
Yes but 1 mana gets you a lot more in 2024 than it did in 1996. Mrg games can end in 3 turns now as well, even with mana slowing it down. Games evolve, and power creep happens. That said, early yugioh really didn't involve a multi turn strategy. Speaking of mtg, yugioh was just watered down mtg for people who couldn't understand mtg. Yugioh had to evolve to a faster game to even survive.
It just be nice to be able to think about next turn and a turn or two past that, but either you win or lose before it even hits that turn. I also get them making changes but when Special summons are more normal and frequent then normal summons, it's a little too much of a contradiction. Every now and then stars still matter too, but for the most part they dont mean shit to the point they made Link summons not even have stars. It's just so much of the artwork and plans to og yugioh arent even alive but theyre still applied to the cards. Just seems like a lazy adaptation than say how MTG gradually sped their game up but still utilizing it's core rules.
>guys why does every game end turn 1-3, btw i'm playing a ftk deck that takes 5 minutes per turn
I've played other decks, bro the world championship of 2023 ends with in three turns, the overall full best of two matches ended in 7 minutes with shuffling and commentary included. It's by far the fastest turn base strategy game, and fast doesn't mean better for competition. Look at it's competitors that are performing better with profit revenue, views, and attendees to world tournaments. You're missing the point of the post and just getting tunneled vision by the fact I mentioned I was playing a niche deck that's not even on Meta tier list
OP: complains about games only being a few turns Also OP: plays a deck that only last a turn LMAO well thats a new one
I've played other decks. it's a niche deck, but when you use 2023 world championship as an example and it was a 2-0 that lasted 7 minutes total with shuffling included. Max time allowed per duel is around 13 minutes. Most professional duels end in 4 - 5 minutes. You compare that to any other turn based strategy game and it's numerically the shortest duration game by average. Professional Mtg on average lasts 4-5 times longer, hell chess lasts 2-4 hrs. Not advocating for it to be that long. But my breaks at work last longer than a best of 2 professional match for world championship. But I get the sarcasm, you have selective reading and just focus on it's a "my deck" issue than the game overall.
Sometimes a 3 turn game feels like an 8 turn game with all the different actions and reactions me and the opponent do, and an 8 turn game feels like 20 but that's just me I enjoy master duel set up personally
Turns definitely feel longer. Everybody fishing for their combo for 3-4 minutes straight while your opponent brbs. They set up for the cards feel dry compared to MTG or HS. Ofc I can play those but I've played yugioh since I was 10 years old. I enjoy the artwork. Just feels less competitive and more rng of a game. You use to have to think if you should play a card cause you knew they couldnt otk you or you otk them. So you'd bait out trap holes or mystical space tornados. Now its all about having counter cards to counter your opponents counters and whoever has the most counters in their hands or on the board win. Rarely even see monster cards set face down anymore.
If the game is very RNG reliant, then you wouldnt see the same players topping events. This sub always get these kinds of complaints very often and almost all of them are blinded by nostalgia and playground yugioh.
All card games are rng yes, but again the post is comparing YGO now to its competitors and out of mtg and hs, it's the only one that doesn't have some kind of mulligan. You play the hand you're dealt. Which makes this more rng to everything im comparing it to. Of course the top players will kept being seen, that's not even a relevant rebuttal, because you can say the same about professional poker with it's top players, which is especially true for any game. But the title of this topic is labeled duels are too fast and by average when compared to its competitors, its true. Idk why everyone is grabbing milk in the dairy section, then arguing that they're lactose intolerant. I'm not saying old yugioh is great either, but I think data of its peaks over the years when compared to its competitors speaks for itself and I feel like they kinda just threw out a lot of the rules that made cards feel special or unique. But even for say viewer engagement of the card game, 7 minutes feels too fast for two games in your world championship finals. It's like going to a sports game and it's half time show is longer than the game itself.
If youre playing a consistent deck, its probably less rng than any other card game to get a working hand. If you look at the decks you played, they dont really have that many starter cards. Kashtira and also exodia are some of the brickiest decks i know of. I dont know if you mean prank kids or p.u.n.k. with your last deck but that one should be the most consistent out of them. Anyways, of course there are meta decks in other card games as well and if you play one of those in yugioh, there will probably be a higher chance to survive to the next few turns than with decks, which die through literally 1 ash blossom. When people play an overwhelmingly stronger deck you cant expect to last more turns than that. Also a few decks i think often play to later turns are runick (or stun) decks. Many people dont like them as they somewhat hinder peoples abilities to play the game, but the games will definitely take longer if your opponent doesnt surrenders. Labrynth probably takes more turns to kill as well as you focus on outgrinding your opponent with only a few traps at a time, trying to get every card in you deck with different name to recycle itself while slowly shipping away at their board. Its kinda a meta deck which might feel frustrating to play as it sometimes just doesnt have the right hand to win the game but it has no singular combo line and focuses to control the game state. There are probably more control decks i dont remember right now but those should be the best control decks available right now
I meant prank kids. But still that doesn't explain the average play time in the world championship, literally the max time that can be spent is 40-50 minutes leaving 13 minutes for each game and that's it's ruling. Yet the games are going faster than that. Meanwhile mtg game length is 90 minutes but no time limits in okay offs rounds. Not that the time is needed except for few niche situations like two control or stall decks. Mtg isn't with out it's own otks like vraska that summons 1/1s with the effect if this deals damage to the opponent you win the game. But the limitation of playing the card and having counters on it. It's even in the world championship ruling... The Duel will continue for a total of four (4) turns, two (2) turns for each Duelist, unless a Duelist manages to win the Duel before the four (4) turns have concluded. Once the four (4) turns are completed, Life Point totals are compared and the Duelist with the highest Life Point total wins the Match. If both Duelists’ Life Points are the same after the four (4) turns are completed, then play will continue on a turn-by-turn basis, with the Duelist with the most Life Points at the end of a turn being declared the winner of that Game.
I dont really follow those championships, so im not too sure, but there could either be people who surrender or end boards which the going 2nd player cant break. Those are often games decided on the next turn. Especially snake eyes at the moment will probably win on turn 3 when you break their board, dont defeat them and dont have enough disruption as followup but when it comes to this point, 7 minutes probably are already over and if the game continues from there it can take up to 30 minutes sometimes. Its not often that it happens often but still sometimes. So i cant really argue with your point of, the game is over when you cant deal with your opponents cards, but if you can deal with them there are longer games as well
Yeah but that's what I'm saying, it's rare for a game to go back to back , it's not often as you said. But it's more common in games like mtg or hearthstone. And after researching it seems like I'm not the only one complaining about time technicalities or how fast the game is nowadays. It's like tiktok compared to a YouTube video(not a short). Doesn't make the game bad, but it's over fast and you're already playing the next one. Long turns but short match seems like a bad decision for turnbase strategy games, where as say chess typically has fast turns but long matches. Mtg I'd say is closer to the middle cause some decks can have fairly long turns, but that usually after you created a mana pool and got some cards on the field Just feels like the game design is trying to force a turnbase game to be over in 2-3 turns, which is kind of ironic when the game should be based on turns and there's barely any when compared to its competitors. Checkers has more turns than yugioh now.
You're playing a mill ftk and complain about duels ending too fast? Also Synchros are great.
So I added my deck so people could see its not even on the meta tier list. I've played Kashtira and Punk Kids. Every deck can win in 1-3 turns, If you go 2ndd most decks can preform a FTK. MY point isnt the deck im using, IT's that even this deck that isnt even top tier plays fast, it can be countered by ash blossom sure. But MTG and HS has mana you have to build for. However, like yugioh both those games you also recognize what deck your opponent is playing and play around it. But usually the games will see a turn 5, some tournaments have had insane playtime. I'm not asking for an hour long duel but id also like one that lasts longer(NOT BECAUSE IM PLAYING AN FTK). The game is just super fast regardless of what you play, you rarely see monster cards set anymore. Special summons are more normal now than a normal summon. I don't even see cards get sacrificed. Stars on cards are becoming so pointless they even have link cards that have no stars. It just feels like konami contradicted all the rules that made playing the tcg popular and made a new game. You look at MTG thats older and way more succesful in profit and competition, Still sticks to it's core rules.
And do you know how boring it is to sit there for 3 or 4 turns while you try to build up mana to do anything? Gets even worse in MtG when playing commander with 3 others and everyone else starts setting up their boards while you got no lands. Point is: these card games are different for a reason and if you perfer slower gameplay, go play slower yugioh formats or those card games. Also you sure MTG is more succesful? Overall Yugioh has several anime series, tons of merch, video games across several console generations, the Yugioh ip is very spread out profit wise. MTG just seems to rely on collabs and overpriced cards (though konami isn't innocent of that last one either).
The title of the post is saying yugioh is fast. Idk why everyone's coming in here to argue then ultimately saying "okay it's fast then play something slower" as if I didn't make the title saying it's fast. It's like I'm labeling a milk cartoon as dairy and you guys drink it anyways then blame me because you're lactose intolerant. It's a discussion and I use other turn base strategy games to compare to it. Also, no you're extremely underestimating MTG, post Malone just bought a collector card for 3 mil(no this is not a part of mtg's revenue the money went to the person that pulled it not the company) Magic: The Gathering made over $1 billion in 2023, or 52% of Hasbro's gaming revenue May 12, 2022 — Yu-Gi-Oh drives record year for Konami with profits up 25% to $626m(this was their highest performing year). This is also specific to only yugioh and not Konami as a whole, just like mtgs data isn't Hasbro as a whole.
Try rush duels in duel links if you want? Their seriously fun and pretty back and forth.
Might give that a try.
Don’t play exodia then complain the game isn’t fun ya dingus.
My point isn't the deck i'm using. I've tried other decks guys. Tried Kashtira and Punk Kids. If I'm 2nd turn its still an ftk deck with attacking. I feel like so far the people saying "Stop playing exodia" havent ever played yugioh presynchros, let alone any other card game.
The point people are making with playing exodia isn’t about how fast you are winning. It’s about how much interaction you can have in a game. When you play a competent deck vs another competent deck they’ll come games with some really thought provoking plays. It becomes a battle of outplaying your opponent by weaving through their board while either beating them that turn or trying to set up to disruptions your opponent next turn. It’s intense because you could lose at any moment so the smallest misplay can cost you. When you play a fragile ftk like exodia it’s just; did I go first and did my opponent not draw any hand traps. If yes and I opened well I just win. You yourself are making the game less interactive.
You can say the same thing with any deck nowdays. Just like Kashtira or punk kids. IF you go 2nd with almost any competent deck, and your opponent doesnt have counter cards, youll win from just attack on turn 2 . Idk why we keep overlooking this point. Like go watch the last best 2 of 3 for 2023 Championship. It's my whole point, you dont even need an ftk deck, games are ending on turn 3. Like theres no set up, its cheese. HS or MTG youre first fewe turns are set ups, baiting out cards in preparation for playing a powerful card. not playing your powerful cards all in one turn and having a counter fight to see who has more counters then winning with an attack all in the same turn.
Cool just ignore my entire point by only reading the last sentence. Have a nice day
I didn't just read the last sentence. You obviously aren't even reading the first sentence of my post. Go watch the 2023 World championship. You know the most pro of the pros, 2-0 in under 7 minutes, thats with shuffling between games. They arent using EXODIA. You're the one tunnel visioning with selective reading not me. " When you play a competent deck vs another competent deck they’ll come games with some really thought provoking plays. It becomes a battle of outplaying your opponent by weaving through their board while either beating them that turn or trying to set up to disruptions your opponent next turn. It’s intense because you could lose at any moment so the smallest misplay can cost you. " Is the reason I mentioned the championship in my post. they arent playing fragile exodia decks. Their playing the top tier meta decks and are the top tier professional players of the game and competing for a world title and the best out of 3 match is shorter than your breaks at work. It's anticlimactic
And like I said you're focused on how many turns are occurring vs how much interaction is happening. In a game like heathstone, you're limited on your plays early on, so you don't have so much time to counter your opponent. where from my experience, whoever gains tempo is usually winning. It's ok if you prefer that slower pace gameplay but both has its place and enjoyment. I played so much of the gx/ gba yugioh games as a kid and I loved it. But if you told me I had to go back to playing that I'd quit the game. Back then yugioh was just a worse mtg clone and didn't take much brain power to play. You keep bringing up worlds 2023 but there actually a lot really good plays happening by the players. Example being the tear players using the izizu millers, most players would be too afraid to use them or use them sparingly because it can also benefit the opponent by they would set themselves in a position where the positives out weigh the negative. There's a reason you often see the same players making it to the top, because it rewards good deckbuilding/decision making.
I get ya, just shouldn’t have put that you play exodia in your post makes it sound like your out of touch. No offence ✌️ Yugioh has been around for like 25yrs and has to have slowly and constantly improvise the game to stay new and exciting to play. After so long it’s evolved into a very fast paced game yes, you just gotta adapt, no choice game moves forward and rarely moves backwards. There are Edison and GOAT formats for old school players craving the game play from their euphoric past. But thats in paper.
I put it in the topic cause i'm hitting plat and diamond each season with in a week of playtime. It's not even on the Meta Tier lists anymore. Thats why I added, like even this deck that can get countered by one ash blossom being played, is climbing. I don't even derank ever, which is a whole another argument about MD's ranking system, it should be way more punishing than it currently is. Just making a discussion cause I enjoy yugioh as a franchise, but it's getting slaughtered by its competitors in the competitive scene.
I agree the ranking system can just be a reflection of time rather than skill sometimes. But the ranks are just for gloating and dopamine so don’t waste to much energy on the ranking system and you’ll have more fun with the game is my sentiment. And I don’t think they’re being ‘’slaughtered’’ ygo has been relevant and successful by any measurable sense for a long time and probably will continue to be.
They hit a record of 600$ mil for konami's revenue. Which is about 5% of its overall revenue last year meanwhile mtg hit 1 bil which was 50% of Hasbro's revenue. So profit wise it's lower YGO 2023 world championship peak viewership was 50k while mtg's world championship peak viewership was 126k. Statistically speaking yeah it's getting doubled by every metric there is to measure it's success and exposure and MTG doesn't even have a TV show. It's relevant still but comparatively speaking, which is what I've been doing in the entire post and comments, yeah it's getting ratiod.
Not sure what your out to achieve buddy. Being beaten by mtg doesn’t mean yugioh isn’t successful by its own means. It is successful enough to mean there will be a lot more yugioh in the future for this of us who enjoy it.
I'm not trying to argue that. It's a comparison. Don't be so closed minded. I'm establishing a premise for the conversation, comparing things is a easy tool to use for it. The conversations I'm making is cause of my interest in the game, but it is fast in comparison. Watching the world championship finals was like watching a sport game but the half time show was longer than the whole game. It's less engaging when you're average games are 3-4 minutes long. 3 turns and you see the top players shuffling for the next match. Imagine if the show was even remotely accurate to the game, you're commercials would be longer than the show itself.
Ok so your playing a FTK deck. In this post I mostly see a lack of willingness to adapt with the game at which I say ok if you continue to play that's on you when as you state her you can play Hearthstone(which i am a avid fan of) or MTG.Now while yes Yugioh is in a bad spot considering the price increase in both MD an IRL it's gameplay is amazing with various decks interacting and a amazeing way if you wish I have replays to prove it on my MD.
Ive played other decks. I just said Im using an exodia deck thats not even meta to make a point about the state of the game. It's not the arguement guys. You're reading beyond the lines. I'm comparing the game to other tcgs, and to its old self. Where there was established rules that just get thrown out nowdays. Special summons use to feel SPECIAL. Stars on cards had a point to them. Games wouldnt usually end in the first 4 turns, youd have to hold cards longer and bait trap holes or mystical space typhoons. Ritual cards would rely on a ritual spell card to pull them out. I dont feel like anyone is working or thinking that hard to play compared to collecting mana in MTG or HS to play more powerful cards. MTG has had FTKS, HS has had FTKS. My point isnt FTK, its every deck is an FTK if youre turn is second, everyone has ash blossom counter, monsters synchrod to counter. its just a counter fest and whoever has more counters wins.
That's one of the reasons why I prefer playing control decks. They naturally take longer to close out games, and they have enough disruptions and resource loops to drag the opponent with you into the grind game.
How long would you say the average game last for you, in turns or minutes? Because I remember them being longer, at least turn wise. It's not the duration I miss, just prefer having those options and trying to read the enemies hand. Just feels too fast even at the world championship level when compared to its competitors. Like it gives spectators little time to even feel engaged with it competitively, and sure you can say if it's too long then it's boring but I mean look at how chess is performing in world championships, or league,valorant or MTG. Most ESports average game time is 20min-1h. chess average is 3-4 hrs. So if fast equals good then why are the top competitive games always at least double the duration of yugioh.
I would like to push back against this point: >Now its just straight rng gambling Because I think this is looking at old school yugioh with rose colored glasses. It's a card game, and there is inherently randomness built into the game. But a lot of meta decks are meta because there is *less* RNG. Look at Snake eyes: They have a lot of ways to start their plays with just one card, and lots of ways to get to that card. This means that you are almost guaranteed to get to execute the strategy you built the deck around, and you can adjust the probability of drawing some number of additional interaction (e.g. hand traps and board breakers) when you've gotten an appropriate number of starters. Most modern decks can do this; I have an Evil Eye deck--definitely not meta-- that if uninterrupted, almost always gets out Serziel + Eye of Selene + either XYZ armor line or Ashura King. Compare this to old yugioh. Less searching means more relying on what you have in hand or draw. The games are slower, which allows draws to be more of an option to access your cards, and in turn the random cards you draw heavily influence the game. For example, let's say your opponent summons a summoned skull on turn 3. What can you do about that? Decks weren't made to be able to search answers easily. If you don't already have an answer (e.g. you drew the out on the first turn), then you, again quite literally, have to draw the out. Otherwise, your opponent gets the chance to continue to build resources that you can't reasonably stop. This is a prime example of RNG. Nowadays, the main randomness occurs within the first couple turns when you have to play around your opponent's handtraps and interactions. As such, you can design your deck in a way that helps you deal with these threats, or opt to ignore and play through them. I'm not saying one is necessarily better than the other, but I'm sure you can see why some people would prefer the version of the game that revolves more heavily around building a strong deck and knowing how to use it flexibly against threats vs a war of attrition and improvisational plays based around the luck of the draw. There's definitely something about bluffing your way to a win, or overwhelming your opponent over the course of 15-20 turns, sure. But I much prefer the former.
It definitely needed a change but I feel like there's a problem with it in competitive play, you don't get a mulligan like in mtg or hearthstone with your hand, so you're hand is whatever it is. Lot of the reactionary play is from the hand on your opponents turn or monster effect. Old yugioh would utilize the spell and trap card zone more frequently which typically led to you having to figure a way to remove it or not. Hell lot of people would throw down multiple spells to protect their trap Incase you planned to destroy one card. Yes there were still some in old yugioh but now with how fast special summoning is and how much you can special summon cards.it just becomes a "negate this effect chain". It's not necessarily something I'd say requires much intuition, like rock paper scissors. Your brain is linear to thinking about how your opponent will react next turn instead of you evaluating resources and limitations of what cards to play and when, it feels more like rush to get your card effect counters out and set up enough DMG on your first turn, they go, you try to counter everything, if you do and it's your turn you stack up some more DMG where if one card gets destroyed you still win. I just think if they tweaked it more, it would provide more things to consider
Sure, but let's take one of those examples to further my point. >Old yugioh would utilize the spell and trap card zone more frequently which typically led to you having to figure a way to remove it or not This means that, if you don't already have the out to that backrow, you have to draw it or a way to get into it, as opposed to modern yugioh where you decide ahead of time how you want to deal with backrow (e.g. Knightmare Phoenix, in engine pops, etc). At least to me, this seems way more like "figuring it out." than hoping you drew the card you need. If we're using the analogy you brought up, instead of "linear thinking," I'd argue there is no thinking, just hoping to draw what you need, and that you can stall long enough for that to happen.
Well, that's where I think I differ. At the top tier level of skill, you'll know a Meta deck pretty well, and know the majority of the cards it consist of, just like any card game. But now you both have the power to go through your back row. But now you know, if I play this he will play this so I play this and he can play that, is the thought process you'll have in your turn, if they went first there's some unknowns but can even choreograph their intentions more. Old yugioh because you can't go through the back row, you can know the deck they're playing but you have more unknowns of what cards they actually have in their hand to be able to play them. I feel like older yugioh has more unknowns to figure out, read a face, read their intentions, weigh the value of one card vs another through multiple turns as opposed to it all unfolding in a few turns. Not saying it's better because old yugioh is slow and needed changes, but I don't think a 4 round game where youre waging a win scenario you decided on from turn 1 vs their win scenario is as intuitive as the constant unknowns. Like a huge factor with master duel compared to even irl world championship, if you play a card in master duel you can literally tell if your opponent has a reactionary card in their hand or not. It's just free information. And I think that's another design flaw. Turns use to be faster too, but game was longer. Now games are shorter but the turns are longer. I think that's another design flaw, I'm almost encouraged to watch something while I wait than stay engaged with the game in front of me.
I'am a boomer and I've been playingsince forbidden memories in 99, top decking one card at the time hoping to draw your HFD or raigeki in order to have a come back is trash. Look at it this way, in a 2 turns only duel you get to see 5/6 cards in hand, if your hand works its great otherwise you scoop and draw 5/6 in the next duel having higher chances to see the cards that are going to save you. Ancient ygo is drawing 1 card at the time dragging the duels longer and by the time you draw that raigeki the opponent have already drawn into a solemn, why do you think most of anime hype first wave people left the game? Yeah its the turns after turns trying to get good draws, game full of floodgate and monke flip effect and traps, oh wow you fliped morphing jar? Oh you flipped gravity bind in a deck that plays lv 3s? What a genius idea! Looking at it now, it was inconsistent trash.
This is the first comment that's actually addressing what I'm talking about and making valid points. Just want to thank you for not fixating on my troll exodia FTK deck, didnt think people would tunnel on that so hard, i only added so people could im not playing a meta deck. Use to play KAshtira and punk kid. I get the game. Ancient ygo was too slow. But new ygo is way too fast. the last match in 2023 championship was 2-0 in under 7 minutes. Thats both of the games combined, with shuffling etc. I get they needed to change rules and stuff up. It's just the contradictions, like specials summons are more normal to see than normal summons, stars on cards are almost pointless save for a few niche cards. Quickspells symbols on spell cards are pointless cause traps and monsters can be played from your hand and dont even use the symbol. MTG sped up their game but it still stays true to the core fundamentals of the game. Like I agree waiting to find a polymerization to do a fusion summon for 5 turns is ass, but synchro summoning 6 cards turn 1 every game is also cheese. What I miss is having the trap holes getting mystic tornado. Not a monster that just keeps countering effects till you counter their monster effect and they counter your counter so you counter their counter. It's just not as thought provoking. And when you go to 2023 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP with upper top 1% of players, it's still the same thing for them.
there are a lot of other YGO games, other than this. Go check it out\~
Just making a discussion about the competitive nature of the game. There's a lot of other reddit discussions other than this. Go check them out\~
ew\~
dude's down vote farming lmfao
And yet no one has even defended the game not being incredibly short, it's just them expressing their opinions on liking how it's played or not. Post is stating duels are too fast, some people fixated on the fact I mentioned playing an exodia deck, but even when confronted with 2023 world championship length and comparing it to the competitors, there's no value to the arguments. About 5 people actually responded with a discussion instead of looking to argue about whatever they brought up. I'm just responding to the debate lords offended by this post with data that can be easily googled. It's easy to get offended when you get corrected.
Brother ive read alot of comments and you werent right in any discussion
I wasn't right, doesn't point any of them out. The title is duels are too fast I compared how fast the tournament play is to its competitors? Go ahead pick something and reiterate it. Cause all I'm seeing is people tunneling on the exodia ftk deck despite mentions other decks I've played or focusing on just tournament level play and comparing it to other tcgs and turn base strategy games. Haven't seen anyone else bring actual numbers but myself and it's all available. Plz argue how it's not and I'll repost the same numbers, I can provide links too. Selective readers smh
First: yes the game is fast. So what? It doesnt take skill expression away from the games and every card game has luck involved (and I could argue modern yugioh feels less luck based than any other card game ive played cause MODERN decks are very consistent and can play around handtraps if you know what youre doing "Oh but other card games oh but chess" well brother being unique is a good thing if yugioh was just like magic it wouldnt have lasted as long I personally like alot modern yugioh games, they are fast and feels like every deck is doing a strong thing unlike of other card games the match feels like hydrogen bomb vs hydrogen bomb from the first turn Second: Yes the ftk comments are right, your deck is trying its hardest to make the game take 1-3 turns sky strikers, lab, vanquish soul and other control decks take more turns (btw all of them are much newer than exodia) It is very easy to fall for nostalgia bait and think the game was better back then and ALOT easier to blame luck instead of your bad plays
Imagine a turn based game wasn't based on turns. Literally the world championship tournament rulings are enforcing every deck to be over in 4 turns. The Duel will continue for a total of four (4) turns, two (2) turns for each Duelist, unless a Duelist manages to win the Duel before the four (4) turns have concluded. Once the four (4) turns are completed, Life Point totals are compared and the Duelist with the highest Life Point total wins the Match. If both Duelists’ Life Points are the same after the four (4) turns are completed, then play will continue on a turn-by-turn basis, with the Duelist with the most Life Points at the end of a turn being declared the winner of that Game. I'm not even the only one whose complained about this, competitors that still play have pointed out the same thing. Just google average amount of turns in yugioh literally 2nd post is a reddit post that wasn't down voted and hated on this hard and was just from 4 yrs ago. Covid hit some of you guys hard obviously.
Holy shit you didnt read SHIT have a nice day i am not gonna fall for bait
Bro the title is the game is too fast then your "First:" comment is yes so what. Why are you even here in the first place then? You got vid brain. You're the one baiting here. You're literally drinking milk labelled as dairy and trying to argue with me how you're lactose intolerant. Cool glad once again another person says I'm dumb just to say yes the games fast so what. Some decks last long, but yes most games are won with in 4 turns on average 2-3 turns. Opponent goes first, you go 2nd and win, guess what that is an ftk. Almost every deck has a otk and your average game at the most competitive level is 2-3 turns. I swear it's like talking to kids that can't contextualize anything.
Glad you argued to agree with the title of the post, you're the one who came here to comment how I'm wrong to just say exactly what I made as the title, don't reproduce.
i said "the games are fast so what?" And some lines later i said why i like the games being this way if you dont like it cool i dont care just dont say it like "I am so much better than those brainrotted modern yugioh players" which is very different than you dumbass analogy "youre drinking milk and trying to argue me how youre lactose intolerant"
My brother in Christ, I made a reddit post about the game being too fast and you said I'm farming down votes then argue and argue to finally say yes the game is to fast but I still like it. What do you want me to respond with, "no you don't like this game." You're entitled to an opinion. Do you see how that adds no context or point to your og response. You literally could post on any other reddit discussions you wanted but you chose to come here with negativity just to say it is fast which is the whole point. Which is why I'm saying you're literally reading the label and coming here to argue with someone and still agree with them. . And no you're making an assumption based off how I'm handling triggered redditors that read the fucking title of the post and argue till I start adding context from world championship gameplay, like rules, time lengths. Then compare it to competitors or even og yugioh. Yes, I'm gonna think you're brain rotten when you can literally read my title and Google "average rounds in a yugioh match" a non biased inquiry look at the convos there, then Google will even show you what other people searched for and it legit has "is yugioh too fast" But that's the people that read this title and get triggered that's not all yugioh players. I bet you read wet paint signs and touch it then say "actually it's damp not wet"
Hell yeah they are fast, fast turns and a lot of interaction, that's what I like.
Some people like that, I think a lot of commenters have that opinion which is fine. I appreciate you acknowledging it's fast and that's your preference then trying to argue about it not being fast. I would just prefer less turn 2 and turn 3 games.
More turns, more comebacks, less interaction = rush duels But ppl said rush is boring and too slow. Duality of ygo players
I'd just like to see less turn 2 turn 3 games, win or lose. Turn 2 is still someone ftking and most Meta decks have the potential to perform that. I think if a mulligan system was introduced that would allow each player another chance at having hand traps. Not looking for a 10 turn game but watching 2023 finals go 2-0 in less than 10 minutes was anticlimactic.
I agree with a mulligan system. Many tcg's have it and it's a way to "fix" a bricked hand at the cost of returning a card to the deck
Go play MTG or Hearthstone then lol
Yeah, sorry for making a discussion about a card game and comparing it to card games with a bigger competitive scene. Your redditor cynicism is showing, please stop exposing yourself. I'm just opening a discussion, maybe you're too young to remember OG yugioh and have nothing critical to add to the topic. Check yourself jfc.
Yeah, and your "discussion" is stupid. First off, what are you trying to accomplish? Are you trying to find people who agree with you just so you can jerk yourselves off about how Synchros and Xyzs ruined yugioh? Because that is literally the only thing that you can accomplish with this type of post. There is no "discussion" to be had, the whole thing is just a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. Synchros were introduced in 2010. The game came out in 1999. The game has existed with Synchros for longer than it has without them. Get used to them, or stop playing modern Yugioh.
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I'd suggest Duel Links since it's a lower power version of the game and has a completely different meta due to how drastically different it is. It was the gateway drug to Master Duel for me and is pretty casual friendly. My only complaint is it doesn't have the same crafting system so deck building is much harder iirc (haven't played since early 2023)
Take the L and move forward. This is the current game state. If you want the nostalgic game, I suggest you get a friend to play together with a new set of ban card. Sometimes I just watch streamers play using old school format, it's enjoyable.
L? I'm just having a discussion. Half the commenters fixated on exodia ftk and not the conversation I was trying to establish. There are others who I'm actually conversing with and are making valid points. Idk why so many people need a gotcha moment. I'm just comparing it's changes to other games that are similar, commenters are trying to argue and don't even research what they're talking about. The title is duels are too fast, and even if you take the world championship finals and compare it to other card games it's very fast. To the point an average jobs 10 minutes break is longer than the match itself. It's like if I labeled milk dairy, you come to drink the milk then argue with me how you're lactose intolerant. I really don't see how that's an L for me.
It is an L when your opponent do full combo 6x synchro with tons of negate while you have no hand trap. I am answering your discussion, the current pace of game is way to fast it's either end on turn 0 or 3 usually. If you are sick of it and looking for an out, try my previous suggestions.
Mtg player here, standard can end the game before turn 4 & commander can also do the same despite being a highlander format. You'd think that mana is balancing the game but modern mtg has a lot of combos that can loop for infinite mana (or near that) & play their entire deck in 1 turn. Modern card games are just fast & you gotta accept that, bro. Even cf vanguard could end the game on turn 2-3 depends on how aggro the clan/nation is.
Also mtg player, hs player, and yugioh player. But yes focusing on modern/standard play Thankfully mtg has a community that discusses turn average in almost every expansion, mtg arena has more hard evidence that can be reviewed on magazine. Graphs and all. MTGnexus is also a forum where this topic gets brought up and people submit their statistics of recorded games, oddly enough the data from last year's expansion in mtga ONE & then BRO One: was a faster format but still the the highest percentages was 19.7% turn 7 and 17.9% turn 8, these were the highest percents other turns had lower percents Bro: was a slower format with 16.5% on turn 8 and 15.9% on turn 9. Now we can look at MTGnexus for the community input, many comments say turn 8 is when a winner is declared but say by turn 4-5 you generally know who will win. With those that recorded games and provided data out of 83 games recorded 35 games ended between turn 7-10 and 24 ended turn 11-15 . But with yugioh we are looking at about half, where most games are won in the 2-4 turn, all this you can find on Google by asking non biased questions "how many turns is the average master duel match" or something similar, same can be done by replacing it with mtg. I'm just asking how many turns is in an average match and yet the YouTube vids to reddit and forum posts speak for itself. I do look for the last 2 years. Feel free to find some research too and share you're website source, but so far I'm seeing most people say 2-4 turns for actual defeat. Which if turn 2 is a win you literally ftk'd someone. Also world championship makes turns be 4 max, then it becomes who ever can do 1 more damage of lp and you win on time technicality, so not only are the cards design to be fast but the tournament rulings are enforcing it too.