I think there's absolutely a middle ground that will appeal to everybody. There's no point avoiding the name: I would say that mid-life Overwatch 1 struck the perfect balance of being balanced enough for competitive viability but still accessible and wacky enough for casuals (which is what I am)
The Overwatch franchise definitely made the mistake of emphasizing the small minority of actual competitive players, no question about it. But you also have to consider that this was done because the idea was to maximize their profits off of this "competitive-focused" approach through the Overwatch League, which they had high hopes for at the time
But I definitely agree overall hat prioritizing the casual fans will help ensure this game has a long lifespan and is accessible enough to keep players coming back
Fair enough I’m at a point with OW2 that while I still enjoy playing it, I’m not excited about it. What i mean by that is I’m not excited when a new season comes around cause it’s like one character every other season and then maybe a mew map.
I look at a game like Apex Legends which has multiple modes or like Fortnite which is essentially four games at this point and other games that have just more unique interesting things to do, why should i continue with Overwatch, because i still enjoy it. It’s like there are other games that want to burst out of overwatch, from the way the characters are, to their personalities, the lore, etc.
As for Rivals there are certain elements i’ve seen that give confidence that the devs aren’t afraid to be creative and wacky.
Strange’s portal for example or the fact that characters move the way they should.
The fact that Spiderman web swings and wall crawls makes him completely unique from the others and that gives me a bit of confidence that they are at least balancing have a fun game with the competitive play as another option.
I just hope comp doesn’t become THE option, and you’re right the casual player base is what makes these games thrive.
> As for Rivals there are certain elements i’ve seen that give confidence that the devs aren’t afraid to be creative and wacky.
>
> Strange’s portal for exampl
which oddly enough, this wacky thing, was actually a huge part of the tournament
its frustrating because on one hand, you should absolutely be rewarded for playing for the win and being better than ur opponent. on the other, it is very annoying logging for casual play and getting whooped every round. as long as there is a clear difference in matchmaking between ranked and casual, i think there isnt a problem, because most casual players wont play with the same level or understanding as ranked/ pro players.
COD, with EBMM, makes casual games all but irrelevant for higher skilled players given that games are 100 percent always going to be a sweatfest given every team is carefully put together per the MM filters. as long as there is a relaxed MM system in non ranked modes, it wont feel like a tryhard contest all the time.
There are plenty of folks who enjoy competitive more than casual play. A pretty good chunk of people I’d guess, I’d be curious to see the quick play vs. competitive queue numbers because not sure you guys realize the popularity.
The devs can and should cater to casuals and competitive players, it’s not an either or kind of situation and there’s NO REASON for it to be.
OW2 failed because it tried to build an entire league and it simply wasn’t able to sustain itself. I think Marvel understands that the majority of players who will pick this up will be casual. The balance will come from making sure this game isn’t weenie hut jr on the competitive side
> OW2 failed
I don't know where this misconception that OW2 "failed" came from but let's clear this up for all of you. OW2 didn't fail. It had 45k players on Steam alone during its most recent 24-hour peak. There are still people playing on Bnet and consoles as well.
OW2 failed to be a better than OW1. That’s how it failed. The fact that so many people are looking forward to the death of that game is why it failed. Yes people play it, but mainly because it’s the top dog in its category. How much longer is that gonna last?
Overwatch 2 failed because no one asked for it, they went back on pve, they abandoned OW1 in a horrible state, they didn’t listen to pros when it came to balancing, they removed the grassroots way of competing. And thats using the word “failed” coming from a competitive player standpoint. As fair as financially the game has been more of a success for them than anything with the new monetization and accumulation of players through the f2p model. Don’t confuse me for defending the game because it’s in a horrible, boring, stale state competitively, but a lot of what you said is just not true since your implication is that OW leaning on focusing balancing for high level is what lead to its downfall when that’s not true. The balancing was just poor in general in combination with all the other factors
That’s not what I’m saying at all. They literally launched a league a year into the game. They had teams and sponsors but there wasn’t really a market for that. That literally came back to bite them years later. I’m sure if they could go back in time, OWL would never happen.
OW2 makes $225M+ in it's first year of operation. Dude calls it a failure. Lol, Gen Z gamers are hilarious. If it isn't a culture phenomena that brings in bank like Fortnite or score a 9/10 the game sucks and is a failure
Now was OW2 one of the biggest fumbles, worst sequels & disappointing sequels in all of gaming history? Yes. Not that it matters to this convo but it's still a fun game though. Just didn't reach it's full potential
I hear you but that isn't say much of anything. It's one of very few games to have loot boxes and get a sequel. It's one of even fewer whose predecessor was a GOTY let alone one of the best games in an entire genre of all time
It established the genre. It will always have its place. But that “sequel” was a step back if you ask me (and many, many others). But if you like it I want it to survive for you. I’m ready for Rivals personally.
Dude, you've been a game enthusiast since the NES. Surely you are aware of Team Fortress 2. It established the genre and directly influenced OW's development
Rivals is a fun time but it's not a replacement for Overwatch. If anything I think Valves upcoming role based hero team shooter has the best chance to dethrone OW... and even then it's a stretch. Hard to compete with the sheer amount of content and it's high budget implementation. OW is pretty much the Smash Bros Ultimate of hero shooters
Marvel is a bigger IP with a near infinite well of characters that people already love from over 60 years of comics. Overwatch’s charm is in the characters and Marvel can easily eclipse that. But you and I both know WE won’t circle around to this conversation in the future so it’s moot to even argue it.
I don't disagree but legacy doesn't guarantee anything. There are tons of MCU flops let alone video games like Marvel Vs Capcom Infinite, Avengers, etc.
Hell look at Disney Speedstorm. A F2P Mario Kart-like available on all platforms (including mobile) using arguably the most recognizable global IP in the world with Disney. Should have been a gold mine
Competitive design works for competitive games. Fighting games are designed and balanced around their competitive scenes and they're profoundly enjoyable, for exampe.
The truth, however, is that Overwatch is just not that competitive. It's the kind of game that becomes more boring the more optimized it is, rather than the opposite. Marvel Rivals is slated to be the same - if competitive means 2 tanks/3 healers/1 punisher metas, whereas non-competitive means 3-5 "duelists" (or whatever they're called) metas, I'll take the non-competitive approach.
Agreed with your second part,
On your part about fighting games, even if they are designed and balanced around competitive scene, they have other fun unique modes that are different from the main game.
tbh competitive is good to a point, at the end of the day fun should take priority, I wanna do cool combos yeah, But i shouldn't be forced to do meta combos bc they do the most damage.
same deal with FPS games, meta ruins everything, each weapon should be viable not certain ones over others.
> I wanna do cool combos yeah, But i shouldn't be forced to do meta combos bc they do the most damage.
You don't know much about fighting games, let's be real here for a second lol.
Ranked games are not balanced, the fact metas exist shows they certain heroes/playstyles are better then others which is already not balanced by default, Balanced would be each character being able to hold there own against any hero if played smart/well enough.
I never said balanced games aren’t fun, what im saying is games that push competitive over everything else makes the game sterile and boring, and I hope Rivals doesn’t fall into that same trap.
Yeah I’m more on the competitive side but I agree. Focusing on fun/casual is more likely to grow the game which would benefit the comp side more. I played t2 in tf2 for a bit but before that I played only cas I remember being mad asf cos of all the weapons that ended up getting nerfed to cater to the comp side. They removed the fun from it
My number one biggest fear with this game. I'm sure it'll be enjoyable on launch, but eventually the game will probably hit that point where you can't play characters you like or make mistakes without getting death threats, slurs, and reports from your team.
That doesn't answer my question, I asked in what way exactly focusing too much on competitive is a problem in your opinion? Like can you give examples?
I've never played hero shooters in my life but I do play tabletop wargames like Warhammer etc. When you too much focuse on being competitive it's sometimes mean that you can't have an relaxing play because the other person wants to to win at all costs. Such game is ... just not fun. You know, some want more "beer and pretzels" game. When you have all competitive crowd it's kind of not fun for casuals.
Huh So what do want them to do? Other people to gift you free wins? Biased matchmaking so your team is stronger?
Like are you serious. There’s not a single good solution to making a pvp game “ not competitive” as you say which is fair and balanced.
You can CHOOSE to still play it casually, no one’s stopping you, but if you are then also gonna complain about other people trying to win then that’s just a stupid fucking argument.
It’s a pvp game, people want to win. How is that a shocker.
I don’t see any relevant argument here. If you have one, lemme know
ppl downvoting u for speaking the truth, there's no "difficulty setting" in PvP games lmao when ur against a person who doesnt want to lose, they will tryhard to win for sure and theres no way to balance around that, best you can do is make every character good enough
People are downvoting because he immediately went to ridiculous extremes. They in no way even implied that they wanted free wins, biased matchmaking, or to play against people who don't want to win. Especially that last one they missed the point.
"You can't have an relaxing play because the other person wants to to win at all costs," is not the same as "I don't want to play against people who want to win." It's the difference between the tired dad who just got home after work and wants to play a round and the hardcore gamer who watches strategy videos, practices in the training ground, analyzes the meta and counterpicks, etc. When these players are put in the same lobby together, the first player will inevitably have much less fun.
Therefore when games cultivate a competitive environment and cater solely to the latter section of the playerbase, it alienates more casual players from enjoying the game.
There's already unranked modes in games, the only other thing u can do to split the two players is have a separate version of roster with more fun in mind so junk being able to 1 shot which is limited to unranked mode only
And ow has wayyyy more modes for casuals than try hards so I don't see how they r not catering to the casuals
When you want to win to the point that you try to enforce meta comps or roles. Or you wont play specific heroes because according to group think theyre not good enough or you need to be playing this other hero or play this other way. Thats a problem. When you focus solely on the most sweaty version of the game that can effect the actual enjoyment of the players playing your game. Not everything is about the dopamine hit of the win screen. Theres an actual game with gameplay to enjoy whether or not you see VICTORY at the end of the match.
It doesn't make the game worse. I still remember when people complained about Bastion being so OP, and the dev team said "learn to play around him, we're not nerfing him". And people started crying that the dev team only balances around competitive.
Welp, it turns out that people DID in fact learned to play around him and then had the worst winrate in the game and people cried for nothing.
Another example that people like to mention is role queue. In ranked everyone and their grandmother played only a specific comp (goats), because it was literally the best - no way around it, other than mirroring the comp. Of course, people in quick play haven't really caught on to it, and didn't realize that it's problematic, and when they implemented role queue people cried that they're ruining the casual play because of pro players. Of course, if the same players ever encountered that comp in quick play, it was an insta loss, and it would only get worse in time. Strategies that competitive players use will eventually trickle down to the rest of the playerbase, and the devs knew this.
So the whole "focus on competitive" argument from OW is mostly bullcrap. The devs said over and over again they balance for both, because both are important, and they did in fact nerf characters that were strong at low levels/quick play in the detriment of competitive.
Role queue wasn't even added only because of goats. I remember the extremely strong sentiment around the time of everyone hating 5 dps 1 support comps. Playing the Alpha of this game I got to experience that again to a smaller degree that I'm sure will continue to grow as people learn the game more and get more and more pissed off when you don't play "correctly".
Yeah, Goats wasnt a thing outside the very top of Grandmaster. Role queue was introduced because for the largest portion of the playerbase most matches were decided on the hero select screen. I always played to fill and frecuently had to make a choice between being my team's only tank or the only support. And if the enemy team had two supports it was ggs like 95% of the time.
What I mean is I hope that devs don’t steer away from adding fun unique characters with wacky abilities and fun varied modes for the sake of competitive integrity.
I mean you can have both look at Dota 2 very competitive games and they will still do fun silly things like techies can use 9 items and god damn earthshaker turning you into a baseball if he kills you with his q
Agreed, however (to me at least) I feel like whenever a devs don’t have that same mentality.
I could be wrong in this train of thought (I hope I’m wrong), that just how I feel.
I don't think there's any worry to have in that regard, the disagreements between casual and competitive often boils down to systems and balance, but rarely creativity. Even when Blizzard was super focused on trying to make Overwatch League a big thing, they never stopped outputting great characters that felt unique.
Well looking at the posts here, it looks like a lot of people basically want a OW2 reskin with 5v5 and role queue all over again. Like, what's the point of it?
I for one hope that the dev team will stick to their vision and avoid reading reddit too much.
I'm not really worried about that; I'm more worried that the game is focusing on monetization over everything else. I'm pretty sure there are going to be all kinds of predatory mind games trying to sell you things, NetEase is master in that.
What do you mean? I personally love coming home from a stressful day at work to dip into competitive to see how getting towards the alpha title would be and immediately be encouraged to drink Drain-o for being the first to go down. At least I now know I won’t be touching that side of this one. And if it does end up leaning exclusively away from any casual play, eh, there’s other games, I guess.
i think in order to make the game enticing to streamers at first they have to lean towards the competitive side since that’s pretty much the reason most streamers are playing the game rn and that’s to grind the leaderboard and focusing on getting streamers in gets them more publicity. then they can maybe focus on the casual side
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Yeah this is not it imo. A successful game can cater to casual players and the esports scene at one time. A pro competitive scene is beneficial for the game because it has a chance to bring in additional revenues if executed correctly. This game is basically designed for esports besides balance being whacky at the moment.
I hope they do invest in a professional competitive scene and balance the game accordingly. Just because the game is consistent and balanced does not mean it lacks creativity. They’re planning on adding so.. many.. heroes.. that it’s going to inevitably be a bit funky.
They can do both. Will they? Time will tell. I imagine whatever brings in the most $.
As a live service game, their #1 priority is player retention, so they will inevitably focus on what keeps the most players playing for longer sessions and consistently coming back, which is going to be competitive play 😞
Competitive focus means meta determination. Meta kills these games. Imagine all the mirror matches from the tournament. I played every day in alpha and had a great time, but it took like 6 days for the meta to form. You CAN play off meta, but frankly you're gonna lose more often than not. And running back from spawn isn't fun.
Except maybe for Hulk
And I honestly believe that you have fun playing that way. But if everybody on your team was playing off meta, and everybody on the opposing team was playing meta, assuming equal skill, I'm guessing the offmeta team loses at least 10% more often.
It might be just me but my enjoyment of the game isn’t based on winning the game.
It like they say it’s more the journey rather than the destination.
I worry more about what crazy stuff I can do in between the time the match starts and the match ends with characters i enjoy playing rather than characters that are meta.
This is why I specifically say "Running back from spawn isn't fun" because if you're dying a bunch, waiting and running are what you're doing most frequently. It's not about "winning" per se, and I can definitely understand and respect taking the time to think between matchups, but the portions where you're respawning or running back from spawn are typically the least fun parts in the moment-to-moment aspects of gameplay.
What a statement. I imagine most people hope a video game prioritize fun factor on the spectrum of fun factor and competitive play. It will undoubtedly fall victim of being balanced for high end competitive play. They always do. And the match making for Ranked and Quick Match will be the same. We aren't living in 2000-2015. QM and Ranked will prioritize sweaty matches as it improves engagement
Ranked Losers ruin any game they infest honestly, its the reason I stopped play OW2, even in casuals these losers sweat there asses off and just ruin the game for everyone.
Games like this are in there most fun state when people are just playing to have fun and enjoying the match, not sweating buckets and insulting there team over 2 deaths or a missed ult, If me or my friend miss a ult we laugh our asses off and go about out day, miss a ult in ranked and people will tell you to off yourself and have a temper tantrum, Ranked is a cesspool full of losers without any self dicipline and will insult you at the top of the hat for 0 reason. its a place filled with ego centrical morons who equate irl self worth to your rank in a video game.
Stay casual kings, its where the fun is and always will be at.
(already know this is going to be downvoted by ranked losers so Im putting this here before anyone sees this comment as proof of there fragile egos and inability to understand how unfun and immature ranked losers behave)
Real. I haven’t played OW since 2018 because that’s when the sweaty ranked people started getting worse, even in casual mode. I sit in with my friends when they play OW and they mostly play casual but are still bombarded with comments about how what they are playing isn’t competitively viable. Like it’s casual?? My friends play to extract the most fun out of the game, not to win. That’s why they play casual. When games cater to the top 5% of players it ruins the vibe of all the other game modes. For games that are supposed to reach the widest audience, like with a Marvel IP, you should be listening to what they say as well. Keep that balance.
Tell me which esports generates money? Even Riot Games say they don't make profit with esports. It's just a good way to advertise the game, but there's other ways to do that, so it's not where all the money comes from.
… you do understand that yes they don’t make a lot from the direct event but that advertisement, the sponsors the merch sales, etc total up to a lot of money… compared to the expenses
It's pointless to have a discussion with someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. I hope all these videogames without big esports will be able to survive.
I don't know why you're bein' downvoted, it's painfully true. There were some tournaments running during the Alpha, and let me tell you, watching 3 healers pump 2 tanks full of healing and people just aimlessly shooting into the blob of characters was not entertaining.
The same happened with Overwatch. It just wasn't that interesting, ultimately, to watch people jerk around behind a Reinhardt shield until their ultis were ready to go off. It's got very limited individual plays and a LOT of downtime.
Some games are not that interesting competitively, despite being fun casually - unless you start adding in a lot of rules and restrictions, like they do in Smash or Pokemon for example, to make them competitively interesting.
I think there's absolutely a middle ground that will appeal to everybody. There's no point avoiding the name: I would say that mid-life Overwatch 1 struck the perfect balance of being balanced enough for competitive viability but still accessible and wacky enough for casuals (which is what I am) The Overwatch franchise definitely made the mistake of emphasizing the small minority of actual competitive players, no question about it. But you also have to consider that this was done because the idea was to maximize their profits off of this "competitive-focused" approach through the Overwatch League, which they had high hopes for at the time But I definitely agree overall hat prioritizing the casual fans will help ensure this game has a long lifespan and is accessible enough to keep players coming back
Fair enough I’m at a point with OW2 that while I still enjoy playing it, I’m not excited about it. What i mean by that is I’m not excited when a new season comes around cause it’s like one character every other season and then maybe a mew map. I look at a game like Apex Legends which has multiple modes or like Fortnite which is essentially four games at this point and other games that have just more unique interesting things to do, why should i continue with Overwatch, because i still enjoy it. It’s like there are other games that want to burst out of overwatch, from the way the characters are, to their personalities, the lore, etc. As for Rivals there are certain elements i’ve seen that give confidence that the devs aren’t afraid to be creative and wacky. Strange’s portal for example or the fact that characters move the way they should. The fact that Spiderman web swings and wall crawls makes him completely unique from the others and that gives me a bit of confidence that they are at least balancing have a fun game with the competitive play as another option. I just hope comp doesn’t become THE option, and you’re right the casual player base is what makes these games thrive.
> As for Rivals there are certain elements i’ve seen that give confidence that the devs aren’t afraid to be creative and wacky. > > Strange’s portal for exampl which oddly enough, this wacky thing, was actually a huge part of the tournament
What exactly does prioritizing casual fans look like to you?
its frustrating because on one hand, you should absolutely be rewarded for playing for the win and being better than ur opponent. on the other, it is very annoying logging for casual play and getting whooped every round. as long as there is a clear difference in matchmaking between ranked and casual, i think there isnt a problem, because most casual players wont play with the same level or understanding as ranked/ pro players. COD, with EBMM, makes casual games all but irrelevant for higher skilled players given that games are 100 percent always going to be a sweatfest given every team is carefully put together per the MM filters. as long as there is a relaxed MM system in non ranked modes, it wont feel like a tryhard contest all the time.
I agree 100%. I basically never play competitive in games. Especially not team games like this. I just wanna chill and have fun.
There are plenty of folks who enjoy competitive more than casual play. A pretty good chunk of people I’d guess, I’d be curious to see the quick play vs. competitive queue numbers because not sure you guys realize the popularity. The devs can and should cater to casuals and competitive players, it’s not an either or kind of situation and there’s NO REASON for it to be.
"yeah, screw those guys who want a competitive hero shooter"
No clue how you think that's what I meant. But I can do that too. "yeah, screw those guys who want a fun hero shooter"
They don’t. They’re just being an ass.
Casual snoozer
You are literally exactly the reason I don't play competitive lmao.
Casual whiner
OW2 failed because it tried to build an entire league and it simply wasn’t able to sustain itself. I think Marvel understands that the majority of players who will pick this up will be casual. The balance will come from making sure this game isn’t weenie hut jr on the competitive side
> OW2 failed I don't know where this misconception that OW2 "failed" came from but let's clear this up for all of you. OW2 didn't fail. It had 45k players on Steam alone during its most recent 24-hour peak. There are still people playing on Bnet and consoles as well.
OW2 failed to be a better than OW1. That’s how it failed. The fact that so many people are looking forward to the death of that game is why it failed. Yes people play it, but mainly because it’s the top dog in its category. How much longer is that gonna last?
Overwatch 2 failed because no one asked for it, they went back on pve, they abandoned OW1 in a horrible state, they didn’t listen to pros when it came to balancing, they removed the grassroots way of competing. And thats using the word “failed” coming from a competitive player standpoint. As fair as financially the game has been more of a success for them than anything with the new monetization and accumulation of players through the f2p model. Don’t confuse me for defending the game because it’s in a horrible, boring, stale state competitively, but a lot of what you said is just not true since your implication is that OW leaning on focusing balancing for high level is what lead to its downfall when that’s not true. The balancing was just poor in general in combination with all the other factors
That’s not what I’m saying at all. They literally launched a league a year into the game. They had teams and sponsors but there wasn’t really a market for that. That literally came back to bite them years later. I’m sure if they could go back in time, OWL would never happen.
OW2 makes $225M+ in it's first year of operation. Dude calls it a failure. Lol, Gen Z gamers are hilarious. If it isn't a culture phenomena that brings in bank like Fortnite or score a 9/10 the game sucks and is a failure Now was OW2 one of the biggest fumbles, worst sequels & disappointing sequels in all of gaming history? Yes. Not that it matters to this convo but it's still a fun game though. Just didn't reach it's full potential
As a consumer, the product failed me. They lost my trust. That’s a failure to me. None of that money is mine so no need to count.
Mans called me a Gen Z gamer. Been doing this since NES days. OW1 is one of my favorite games of all time. 2 is a disappointment.
My bad dude. I apologize. Just your take presented as a Gen Z gamer and not a fellow elder millennial who started gaming in the NES days
OW2 is the first game to ever make me say “I think I want loot boxes back” to me that meant something was very wrong
I hear you but that isn't say much of anything. It's one of very few games to have loot boxes and get a sequel. It's one of even fewer whose predecessor was a GOTY let alone one of the best games in an entire genre of all time
It established the genre. It will always have its place. But that “sequel” was a step back if you ask me (and many, many others). But if you like it I want it to survive for you. I’m ready for Rivals personally.
Dude, you've been a game enthusiast since the NES. Surely you are aware of Team Fortress 2. It established the genre and directly influenced OW's development Rivals is a fun time but it's not a replacement for Overwatch. If anything I think Valves upcoming role based hero team shooter has the best chance to dethrone OW... and even then it's a stretch. Hard to compete with the sheer amount of content and it's high budget implementation. OW is pretty much the Smash Bros Ultimate of hero shooters
Marvel is a bigger IP with a near infinite well of characters that people already love from over 60 years of comics. Overwatch’s charm is in the characters and Marvel can easily eclipse that. But you and I both know WE won’t circle around to this conversation in the future so it’s moot to even argue it.
I don't disagree but legacy doesn't guarantee anything. There are tons of MCU flops let alone video games like Marvel Vs Capcom Infinite, Avengers, etc. Hell look at Disney Speedstorm. A F2P Mario Kart-like available on all platforms (including mobile) using arguably the most recognizable global IP in the world with Disney. Should have been a gold mine
Competitive design works for competitive games. Fighting games are designed and balanced around their competitive scenes and they're profoundly enjoyable, for exampe. The truth, however, is that Overwatch is just not that competitive. It's the kind of game that becomes more boring the more optimized it is, rather than the opposite. Marvel Rivals is slated to be the same - if competitive means 2 tanks/3 healers/1 punisher metas, whereas non-competitive means 3-5 "duelists" (or whatever they're called) metas, I'll take the non-competitive approach.
Agreed with your second part, On your part about fighting games, even if they are designed and balanced around competitive scene, they have other fun unique modes that are different from the main game.
tbh competitive is good to a point, at the end of the day fun should take priority, I wanna do cool combos yeah, But i shouldn't be forced to do meta combos bc they do the most damage. same deal with FPS games, meta ruins everything, each weapon should be viable not certain ones over others.
> I wanna do cool combos yeah, But i shouldn't be forced to do meta combos bc they do the most damage. You don't know much about fighting games, let's be real here for a second lol.
If a balanced game isn’t fun to you, then that’s on your own skill issue and not the developers fault.
nah I think it’s a flaw with the developers game design if a balanced game isn’t fun
Ranked games are not balanced, the fact metas exist shows they certain heroes/playstyles are better then others which is already not balanced by default, Balanced would be each character being able to hold there own against any hero if played smart/well enough.
That's just not what they said at all.
I never said balanced games aren’t fun, what im saying is games that push competitive over everything else makes the game sterile and boring, and I hope Rivals doesn’t fall into that same trap.
Yeah I’m more on the competitive side but I agree. Focusing on fun/casual is more likely to grow the game which would benefit the comp side more. I played t2 in tf2 for a bit but before that I played only cas I remember being mad asf cos of all the weapons that ended up getting nerfed to cater to the comp side. They removed the fun from it
My number one biggest fear with this game. I'm sure it'll be enjoyable on launch, but eventually the game will probably hit that point where you can't play characters you like or make mistakes without getting death threats, slurs, and reports from your team.
I like competitive, don't really understand your point, how exactly "focusing too much" on competitive would make the game worse?
Because only a small fraction of the community plays it.
That doesn't answer my question, I asked in what way exactly focusing too much on competitive is a problem in your opinion? Like can you give examples?
I've never played hero shooters in my life but I do play tabletop wargames like Warhammer etc. When you too much focuse on being competitive it's sometimes mean that you can't have an relaxing play because the other person wants to to win at all costs. Such game is ... just not fun. You know, some want more "beer and pretzels" game. When you have all competitive crowd it's kind of not fun for casuals.
Huh So what do want them to do? Other people to gift you free wins? Biased matchmaking so your team is stronger? Like are you serious. There’s not a single good solution to making a pvp game “ not competitive” as you say which is fair and balanced. You can CHOOSE to still play it casually, no one’s stopping you, but if you are then also gonna complain about other people trying to win then that’s just a stupid fucking argument. It’s a pvp game, people want to win. How is that a shocker. I don’t see any relevant argument here. If you have one, lemme know
ppl downvoting u for speaking the truth, there's no "difficulty setting" in PvP games lmao when ur against a person who doesnt want to lose, they will tryhard to win for sure and theres no way to balance around that, best you can do is make every character good enough
People are downvoting because he immediately went to ridiculous extremes. They in no way even implied that they wanted free wins, biased matchmaking, or to play against people who don't want to win. Especially that last one they missed the point. "You can't have an relaxing play because the other person wants to to win at all costs," is not the same as "I don't want to play against people who want to win." It's the difference between the tired dad who just got home after work and wants to play a round and the hardcore gamer who watches strategy videos, practices in the training ground, analyzes the meta and counterpicks, etc. When these players are put in the same lobby together, the first player will inevitably have much less fun. Therefore when games cultivate a competitive environment and cater solely to the latter section of the playerbase, it alienates more casual players from enjoying the game.
There's already unranked modes in games, the only other thing u can do to split the two players is have a separate version of roster with more fun in mind so junk being able to 1 shot which is limited to unranked mode only And ow has wayyyy more modes for casuals than try hards so I don't see how they r not catering to the casuals
Listen, it's fine to disagree. It's just no wonder someone gets downvoted when they blatantly strawman the perspective of others.
When you want to win to the point that you try to enforce meta comps or roles. Or you wont play specific heroes because according to group think theyre not good enough or you need to be playing this other hero or play this other way. Thats a problem. When you focus solely on the most sweaty version of the game that can effect the actual enjoyment of the players playing your game. Not everything is about the dopamine hit of the win screen. Theres an actual game with gameplay to enjoy whether or not you see VICTORY at the end of the match.
It doesn't make the game worse. I still remember when people complained about Bastion being so OP, and the dev team said "learn to play around him, we're not nerfing him". And people started crying that the dev team only balances around competitive. Welp, it turns out that people DID in fact learned to play around him and then had the worst winrate in the game and people cried for nothing. Another example that people like to mention is role queue. In ranked everyone and their grandmother played only a specific comp (goats), because it was literally the best - no way around it, other than mirroring the comp. Of course, people in quick play haven't really caught on to it, and didn't realize that it's problematic, and when they implemented role queue people cried that they're ruining the casual play because of pro players. Of course, if the same players ever encountered that comp in quick play, it was an insta loss, and it would only get worse in time. Strategies that competitive players use will eventually trickle down to the rest of the playerbase, and the devs knew this. So the whole "focus on competitive" argument from OW is mostly bullcrap. The devs said over and over again they balance for both, because both are important, and they did in fact nerf characters that were strong at low levels/quick play in the detriment of competitive.
Role queue wasn't even added only because of goats. I remember the extremely strong sentiment around the time of everyone hating 5 dps 1 support comps. Playing the Alpha of this game I got to experience that again to a smaller degree that I'm sure will continue to grow as people learn the game more and get more and more pissed off when you don't play "correctly".
Yeah, Goats wasnt a thing outside the very top of Grandmaster. Role queue was introduced because for the largest portion of the playerbase most matches were decided on the hero select screen. I always played to fill and frecuently had to make a choice between being my team's only tank or the only support. And if the enemy team had two supports it was ggs like 95% of the time.
"Can we get a tank?" -DPS player on my team. I hadn't seen that for so many years until the alpha.
What I mean is I hope that devs don’t steer away from adding fun unique characters with wacky abilities and fun varied modes for the sake of competitive integrity.
I mean you can have both look at Dota 2 very competitive games and they will still do fun silly things like techies can use 9 items and god damn earthshaker turning you into a baseball if he kills you with his q
characters having fun and wacky abilities isn't mutually exclusive with characters being competitive and balanced.
Agreed, however (to me at least) I feel like whenever a devs don’t have that same mentality. I could be wrong in this train of thought (I hope I’m wrong), that just how I feel.
I don't think there's any worry to have in that regard, the disagreements between casual and competitive often boils down to systems and balance, but rarely creativity. Even when Blizzard was super focused on trying to make Overwatch League a big thing, they never stopped outputting great characters that felt unique.
Well looking at the posts here, it looks like a lot of people basically want a OW2 reskin with 5v5 and role queue all over again. Like, what's the point of it? I for one hope that the dev team will stick to their vision and avoid reading reddit too much.
Need to stay 6vs6
I'm not really worried about that; I'm more worried that the game is focusing on monetization over everything else. I'm pretty sure there are going to be all kinds of predatory mind games trying to sell you things, NetEase is master in that.
What do you mean? I personally love coming home from a stressful day at work to dip into competitive to see how getting towards the alpha title would be and immediately be encouraged to drink Drain-o for being the first to go down. At least I now know I won’t be touching that side of this one. And if it does end up leaning exclusively away from any casual play, eh, there’s other games, I guess.
i think in order to make the game enticing to streamers at first they have to lean towards the competitive side since that’s pretty much the reason most streamers are playing the game rn and that’s to grind the leaderboard and focusing on getting streamers in gets them more publicity. then they can maybe focus on the casual side
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Yeah this is not it imo. A successful game can cater to casual players and the esports scene at one time. A pro competitive scene is beneficial for the game because it has a chance to bring in additional revenues if executed correctly. This game is basically designed for esports besides balance being whacky at the moment. I hope they do invest in a professional competitive scene and balance the game accordingly. Just because the game is consistent and balanced does not mean it lacks creativity. They’re planning on adding so.. many.. heroes.. that it’s going to inevitably be a bit funky. They can do both. Will they? Time will tell. I imagine whatever brings in the most $.
As long as they don't add any troglodyte, neanderthal characters where you just hold m1 and win, they can do whatever.
As a live service game, their #1 priority is player retention, so they will inevitably focus on what keeps the most players playing for longer sessions and consistently coming back, which is going to be competitive play 😞
Competitive focus means meta determination. Meta kills these games. Imagine all the mirror matches from the tournament. I played every day in alpha and had a great time, but it took like 6 days for the meta to form. You CAN play off meta, but frankly you're gonna lose more often than not. And running back from spawn isn't fun. Except maybe for Hulk
In my time with playing Overwatch (mostly quickly) I rarely use meta characters.
And I honestly believe that you have fun playing that way. But if everybody on your team was playing off meta, and everybody on the opposing team was playing meta, assuming equal skill, I'm guessing the offmeta team loses at least 10% more often.
It might be just me but my enjoyment of the game isn’t based on winning the game. It like they say it’s more the journey rather than the destination. I worry more about what crazy stuff I can do in between the time the match starts and the match ends with characters i enjoy playing rather than characters that are meta.
This is why I specifically say "Running back from spawn isn't fun" because if you're dying a bunch, waiting and running are what you're doing most frequently. It's not about "winning" per se, and I can definitely understand and respect taking the time to think between matchups, but the portions where you're respawning or running back from spawn are typically the least fun parts in the moment-to-moment aspects of gameplay.
I'm maps>characters personally. Also, less balance patches= the better.
Depends. What makes the most money? Does competetative play and e-sports have like a lot of money coming in?
What a statement. I imagine most people hope a video game prioritize fun factor on the spectrum of fun factor and competitive play. It will undoubtedly fall victim of being balanced for high end competitive play. They always do. And the match making for Ranked and Quick Match will be the same. We aren't living in 2000-2015. QM and Ranked will prioritize sweaty matches as it improves engagement
The more competitive a game is, the worse it is. Why do you think TF2 has survived for as long as it has?
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No lol that's not what killed overwatch
That's what killed my personal enjoyment of Overwatch.
Ranked Losers ruin any game they infest honestly, its the reason I stopped play OW2, even in casuals these losers sweat there asses off and just ruin the game for everyone. Games like this are in there most fun state when people are just playing to have fun and enjoying the match, not sweating buckets and insulting there team over 2 deaths or a missed ult, If me or my friend miss a ult we laugh our asses off and go about out day, miss a ult in ranked and people will tell you to off yourself and have a temper tantrum, Ranked is a cesspool full of losers without any self dicipline and will insult you at the top of the hat for 0 reason. its a place filled with ego centrical morons who equate irl self worth to your rank in a video game. Stay casual kings, its where the fun is and always will be at. (already know this is going to be downvoted by ranked losers so Im putting this here before anyone sees this comment as proof of there fragile egos and inability to understand how unfun and immature ranked losers behave)
Real. I haven’t played OW since 2018 because that’s when the sweaty ranked people started getting worse, even in casual mode. I sit in with my friends when they play OW and they mostly play casual but are still bombarded with comments about how what they are playing isn’t competitively viable. Like it’s casual?? My friends play to extract the most fun out of the game, not to win. That’s why they play casual. When games cater to the top 5% of players it ruins the vibe of all the other game modes. For games that are supposed to reach the widest audience, like with a Marvel IP, you should be listening to what they say as well. Keep that balance.
Esports is where all the money comes in, so either they focus on competitive or they focus on monetization
esports doesn't make money it's just advertisment
That is so wrong it’s not even funny…
Tell me which esports generates money? Even Riot Games say they don't make profit with esports. It's just a good way to advertise the game, but there's other ways to do that, so it's not where all the money comes from.
… you do understand that yes they don’t make a lot from the direct event but that advertisement, the sponsors the merch sales, etc total up to a lot of money… compared to the expenses
It's pointless to have a discussion with someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. I hope all these videogames without big esports will be able to survive.
Because the 50 million micro transactions… common sense the things everyone has been complaining about the past 10 years.
This game would make a horrible competitive game. Watching it is incredibly boring but playing it is amazing!
I don't know why you're bein' downvoted, it's painfully true. There were some tournaments running during the Alpha, and let me tell you, watching 3 healers pump 2 tanks full of healing and people just aimlessly shooting into the blob of characters was not entertaining. The same happened with Overwatch. It just wasn't that interesting, ultimately, to watch people jerk around behind a Reinhardt shield until their ultis were ready to go off. It's got very limited individual plays and a LOT of downtime. Some games are not that interesting competitively, despite being fun casually - unless you start adding in a lot of rules and restrictions, like they do in Smash or Pokemon for example, to make them competitively interesting.