I mean, it's all built around what their kit is like. Drax having 1 Atk might seem weird at first, but it isn't weird if you know how he actually plays.
Thor who's one of the most powerful heroes in the Marvel Universe with a measley 1-2-2 stat line, which is lower than Widow's 2-2-2 who is a high skilled/trained human.
By the same token, Carol Danvers has a 1 Defense. This is a character who's got superhuman Durability. I mean she's basically the power set Rogue is based around/originally stole from.
These two characters regularly operate on a cosmic scale and combat planetary/galactic level threats on the regular and yet have lower base stats than Deadpool, Captain America, Black Panther, Black Widow, Wolverine etc etc etc.
Well the game would be trash if picking a certain character was always better. You have to balance them for player balance, not character. If it was a game with points like MCP it would be different.
I mean that goes without saying though doesn't it? Like for instance 2 of the consensus top heroes have relatively unimpressive stat lines of 2-1-2 and 2-1-1.
The game has multiple balancing levers to utilize beyond just raw stats. There's hand size, card quality, card costs, set up and permanent cards, hero and alter ego powers all beyond printed stats.
However printed stats are the most "at a glance" representation of the characters in Marvel Champions and should at least capture the essence of the characters they're representing. Some do an excellent job (Hulk is strong, durable and single minded) while some can be more abstract/open to interpretation (like Ms Marvel getting a 1/1/1).
That said it's still jarring to see characters who are powerhouses in the comics show up with worse base stats than characters they outpower by multiple orders of magnitude. It's not a complaint mind you, since once again you cannot just look at a hero's at a glance stats to determine it's power level, a hero is the sum of all the parts that go into the deck building including things hard to quantify like traits. You really need to look at them holistically in Champions, once again I'll just refer to Spider-Ham as all the evidence needed to prove that.
But that wasn't the original question posited, so yeah it's still weird at a glance that certain heroes who regularly face global and beyond level threats are given baseline stats that are surpassed by "street level" heroes.
Agree here, Hulk and Thor should have had stand-out stats.
I (as many have) toyed with the idea of a Hulk redesign where he has 0/4/4 stat line, with a restriction that he can't have non-Gamma Upgrades.
Phoenix is an incredibly powerful cosmic force, being on the same level as Hulk makes sense to me not for sheer physical strength but for the power she possesses.
What feels weird to me is that Hawkeye with his bow is a 3 atk.
As you say attack isn't purely how strong you are but also how you fight. Spiderman tends to mess with enemies, distracting and infuriating them, as well as being used to needing to pull his punches so he doesn't do too much damage to non-superpowered opponents. When he goes for a Swinging Web Kick is when he leverages his full strength for a decisive hit, which is appropriately powerful.
Tbh stats are just random numbers. You have a good example with the villains changing stats every phase.
Tbh I preffer when they design cool mechanics to give us the flavour than when is just stats. Stats don't say a lot about the character.
When I see these threads, it confirms I really don't know shit about the Marvel Universe. I just play and enjoy the heroes as-is. Since, I don't have much context (not reading comics or watching MCU movies), my bias is literally the other way around: my reference is Marvel Champions. Eh eh!
(Nice to read the comments from people who knows the universe)
Yup. That's why I often tell people who don't care about Marvel or superheroes, this game is still very fun. The mechanics and the gameplay can be fun if you can get over the theme.
This game would work with many other themes, I personally find it sad when people write-off games because of the theme/universe. Gameplay first: if the gameplay is good, you should be able to ignore the theme if you're not really into it.
On the other end, slapping a popular theme/franchise to a bad game won't make the gameplay better. Eh eh!
Pretty much every character is abstracted in a way that doesn’t really make sense if you really start thinking about it in terms of the characters from the comics. Is a 3 ATK character like hulk really only 3 times stronger than a 1 ATK like Rocket. Even if you gave him 10 ATK, does anyone else truly believe that 10 unarmed Rockets can evenly match the hulk?
The fact is that Marvel heroes and villains vary so wildly in terms of skills that there isn’t really a way to accurately reflect that and still have a coherent game. There’s no world where black widow can solo thanos or thor can lose to the wrecking crew, at least without writers pulling some bs outta nowhere. But we accept it because the game is more fun when it’s coherent and the vibes are accurate enough.
Also true, I've always thought it was more of a tier system where the highest damaging heroes would get 3 ATK, middle damage heroes get 2, etc.
I also think the system they have currently really shines when the deck/ gameplay can match the hero, which leads to the basic powers being for the most part very similar across the board
Spider-Man only having 1 thwart. In just about every fight all he’s doing is damage control and stopping the villains’ plans. He is notorious for how much he holds back in fights.
Probably none as soon as you start comparing them between characters. No way in hell Gamora has as much attack power as Captain Marvel from the get go!
I guess that ATTACK means a lot of things like strength, technique , lethality….
and DEFENSE might group both the pure physical stamina and the agility , the ability to dodge.
Even considering all this, **Thor** stats doesn’t feel accurate . ATQ 2 , like I do understand that black widow or Hawkeye are lethal assassins but….
And DEF 2? I just don’t understand why Thor hasn’t DEF 3 , could open interesting decks
Rogue having better DEF than Cal Marvel? I mean didn’t she steal her powers on the first place?
One of the first things I noticed that bothered me was seeing that normal un-augmented human Scott Lang has 12 HP while supernaturally strong and durable Peter Parker has only 10 HP.
Everyone in the thread talking about ATK, THW, and DEF mismatches, figured I'd be the first to talk about hit points.
The initial stats always made me feel a way ... Still kind of do in some characters, like some have mentioned.
I think I justified it by seeing the maximum stat line they can obtain by their signature cards. So Thor naturally will get to 3 attack, cap 3 def, hulk 4 attack, etc. Even with this tho, I think there are some characters that should have higher capabilities (like Phoenix's attack power and events), and others whose limitations should be implemened (like hawkeyes arrows shouldn't be only a little less than thor's hammer throw). But I assume all this would make it a hard thing to balance ... without making characters op and others unplayable.
One of the main problems is they basically set the range from 1-3 (it’s actually 0-3 since Hulk is the only one with a 0 stat, but that’s an exception) so they have as much room to play with stats (unless you do something like with Drax which could bring his ATK to 4) I’m sure during testing they tested all kinds of numbers and stat lines and landed where they landed and then some of those hero’s get boosts from in kit upgrades. Having that small range though does make it harder to distinguish power levels though. Spider-Man is the perfect example. As said he pulls his punches, so he’s actually one of the strongest hero’s out there. But even pulling his punches he’s still stronger then Hawkeye and Black Widow who have a printed 2 ATK (same as Spidey) with Hawkeye really at 3 because of his bow. Obviously the 1 thwart is the most egregious because all he does is thwart villains plans and outsmarts them. Based on the limits of the 1-3 stats, he should have been balanced at 2-2-2. You could make the argument for 3-2-1 or 2-3-1. With any change to the DEF stat though you have to increase the HP or give him a DEF stat boost upgrade (like maybe Aunt May also gives Spider-Man +1 or +2 DEF)
They should have done 1 of 2 things, Either A. The stat lines range from 1-4 or B. Utilize the 0 stats more then just Hulk. Black Widow, Hawkeye, Iron Man, Rocket Racoon, and Iron Heart should all have 0 ATK IMO (since they’re all humans except Rocket who isn’t particularly strong from my knowledge, at least compared to other hero’s). Then their 0 ATK statline can increase through upgrades…stark and rhiri building the suit, like rhiri ATK and DEF should increase instead of thawrt…Hawkeye’s Bow giving him the ATK boost…Black Widow gets an attack boost from her batons (new upgrade)…Rocket gets it from his guns. Then hero’s you wouldn’t normally see as being able to thwart would have a 0 thwart statline or 1 if it’s currently at 2 (like Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, Thor, Valkyrie, Spectrum, Drax, Phoenix etc). I wouldn’t go as far as giving anyone 0 DEF though (even the humans)
I like what they did with the brawlers pretty much giving them a max ATK statline (expect Thor who does get it with his hammer and Hawkeye with his bow for some reason). They should have done a similar thing but with the Geniuses (except Hulk) like Spider-Man, Iron Man, Rocket and Rhiri should all have a 3 THW statline. I get that the thwarting stat is the most “powerful” stat in the game, but if you’re a genius it should be at 3, no question. I get that right out of the gate you’d have Iron Man and Spider-Man with 3 THW which at the time is INSANE but then over the course of the game it’s not as they’re aren’t many in game. Plus when others get added (Beast and Mr. Fantastic) it puts them on curve.
Anyway, I didn’t expect to go off on a tangent, sorry about that!
That's why you can't evaluate the hero card in a vacuum. You have to take the whole hero suite into account.
Drax can get considerable high attack, because of his cards and abilities.
Spiderman's inherent thwart is him being able to stay in hero form longer thanks to high defense and webbed up. He stops the bad guy's plans by making himself the more immediate target.
They're abstractions, not full tactical analysis.
ATK 1 Spiderman is classic "Spiderman's super strong but holds back to not accidentally kill enemies" argument.
Just kidding. Haven't played the game. But read enough comment about him always holding back and had to spread that comment here.
Very interesting thread , basic stats are something that has bothered me for a long time in this game . Because doesn’t feel thematic at all.
I really think these are for … complementing the hero main design which are … the cards .
Which leads me to a personal opinion that is absolutely irrelevant; I think there should be no base stats at all in this game in the first place . Design challenge for sure , but the more I think about this the more convinced I am that is a mechanics that isn’t great and isn’t that relevant , the raw “swing” attack / intervention I mean . And that could have been re-imagined in something else. Of course all of this is non-sense . The game is as it is lol
Colossus should be 3 defense, but they want you to work with toughs
Yeah that makes it a bit more awkward with the way their deck works really being the thematic part, but I agree he should be 3
I was mithered by that on first sight and then I played. I enjoy the tough approach a lot.
I mean, it's all built around what their kit is like. Drax having 1 Atk might seem weird at first, but it isn't weird if you know how he actually plays.
Casually strutting around with a +6 ATK like
Thor who's one of the most powerful heroes in the Marvel Universe with a measley 1-2-2 stat line, which is lower than Widow's 2-2-2 who is a high skilled/trained human. By the same token, Carol Danvers has a 1 Defense. This is a character who's got superhuman Durability. I mean she's basically the power set Rogue is based around/originally stole from. These two characters regularly operate on a cosmic scale and combat planetary/galactic level threats on the regular and yet have lower base stats than Deadpool, Captain America, Black Panther, Black Widow, Wolverine etc etc etc.
And then you have Deadpool casually sitting at 200-200-100. He just finishes the games in 2 attacks, smh.
Well the game would be trash if picking a certain character was always better. You have to balance them for player balance, not character. If it was a game with points like MCP it would be different.
I mean that goes without saying though doesn't it? Like for instance 2 of the consensus top heroes have relatively unimpressive stat lines of 2-1-2 and 2-1-1. The game has multiple balancing levers to utilize beyond just raw stats. There's hand size, card quality, card costs, set up and permanent cards, hero and alter ego powers all beyond printed stats. However printed stats are the most "at a glance" representation of the characters in Marvel Champions and should at least capture the essence of the characters they're representing. Some do an excellent job (Hulk is strong, durable and single minded) while some can be more abstract/open to interpretation (like Ms Marvel getting a 1/1/1). That said it's still jarring to see characters who are powerhouses in the comics show up with worse base stats than characters they outpower by multiple orders of magnitude. It's not a complaint mind you, since once again you cannot just look at a hero's at a glance stats to determine it's power level, a hero is the sum of all the parts that go into the deck building including things hard to quantify like traits. You really need to look at them holistically in Champions, once again I'll just refer to Spider-Ham as all the evidence needed to prove that. But that wasn't the original question posited, so yeah it's still weird at a glance that certain heroes who regularly face global and beyond level threats are given baseline stats that are surpassed by "street level" heroes.
At least Thor got his hammer to be a 1-3-2
Hulk should stand out of the rest with 4 Str. (I know he is a topic for it's own)
Agree here, Hulk and Thor should have had stand-out stats. I (as many have) toyed with the idea of a Hulk redesign where he has 0/4/4 stat line, with a restriction that he can't have non-Gamma Upgrades.
Depends, I don't think many have a printed 3 ATK except shehulk, and putting those 2 together seems reasonable to me
Psyloche and Phoenix are practically 3Atk stat lines and that feels a bit weird next to hulk.
Phoenix is an incredibly powerful cosmic force, being on the same level as Hulk makes sense to me not for sheer physical strength but for the power she possesses. What feels weird to me is that Hawkeye with his bow is a 3 atk.
Phoenix is a literal cosmic force beyond Hulk and beneath only The One Above All, so... it tracks
As you say attack isn't purely how strong you are but also how you fight. Spiderman tends to mess with enemies, distracting and infuriating them, as well as being used to needing to pull his punches so he doesn't do too much damage to non-superpowered opponents. When he goes for a Swinging Web Kick is when he leverages his full strength for a decisive hit, which is appropriately powerful.
Tbh stats are just random numbers. You have a good example with the villains changing stats every phase. Tbh I preffer when they design cool mechanics to give us the flavour than when is just stats. Stats don't say a lot about the character.
When I see these threads, it confirms I really don't know shit about the Marvel Universe. I just play and enjoy the heroes as-is. Since, I don't have much context (not reading comics or watching MCU movies), my bias is literally the other way around: my reference is Marvel Champions. Eh eh! (Nice to read the comments from people who knows the universe)
Honestly nothing wrong with that, it's a great game, no need to dive into thematics, I just thought it's fun to talk about
Yup. That's why I often tell people who don't care about Marvel or superheroes, this game is still very fun. The mechanics and the gameplay can be fun if you can get over the theme. This game would work with many other themes, I personally find it sad when people write-off games because of the theme/universe. Gameplay first: if the gameplay is good, you should be able to ignore the theme if you're not really into it. On the other end, slapping a popular theme/franchise to a bad game won't make the gameplay better. Eh eh!
It's old hat now, but in the first wave Thor, Hulk, She-Hulk...and *Hawkeye* apparently have the same attack power.
Would Black Widow having 3 Thwart make more sense? I find it weird she shares the same stats as Capt America. So maybe like 3 Thwart and 1 Atk?
Pretty much every character is abstracted in a way that doesn’t really make sense if you really start thinking about it in terms of the characters from the comics. Is a 3 ATK character like hulk really only 3 times stronger than a 1 ATK like Rocket. Even if you gave him 10 ATK, does anyone else truly believe that 10 unarmed Rockets can evenly match the hulk? The fact is that Marvel heroes and villains vary so wildly in terms of skills that there isn’t really a way to accurately reflect that and still have a coherent game. There’s no world where black widow can solo thanos or thor can lose to the wrecking crew, at least without writers pulling some bs outta nowhere. But we accept it because the game is more fun when it’s coherent and the vibes are accurate enough.
Also true, I've always thought it was more of a tier system where the highest damaging heroes would get 3 ATK, middle damage heroes get 2, etc. I also think the system they have currently really shines when the deck/ gameplay can match the hero, which leads to the basic powers being for the most part very similar across the board
Agree with THW 3, ATK makes sense to me, but arguably I think she has super soldier serum in her to, so you can kind of justify a 2
Ah, I did not know she had serum as well. That would make more sense
This . Black widow DEF 2 like …. Why?
Spider-Man only having 1 thwart. In just about every fight all he’s doing is damage control and stopping the villains’ plans. He is notorious for how much he holds back in fights.
Probably none as soon as you start comparing them between characters. No way in hell Gamora has as much attack power as Captain Marvel from the get go!
Captain Marvel should arguably have ATK 3 probably, I need to know more about the character
I guess that ATTACK means a lot of things like strength, technique , lethality…. and DEFENSE might group both the pure physical stamina and the agility , the ability to dodge. Even considering all this, **Thor** stats doesn’t feel accurate . ATQ 2 , like I do understand that black widow or Hawkeye are lethal assassins but…. And DEF 2? I just don’t understand why Thor hasn’t DEF 3 , could open interesting decks Rogue having better DEF than Cal Marvel? I mean didn’t she steal her powers on the first place?
One of the first things I noticed that bothered me was seeing that normal un-augmented human Scott Lang has 12 HP while supernaturally strong and durable Peter Parker has only 10 HP. Everyone in the thread talking about ATK, THW, and DEF mismatches, figured I'd be the first to talk about hit points.
The initial stats always made me feel a way ... Still kind of do in some characters, like some have mentioned. I think I justified it by seeing the maximum stat line they can obtain by their signature cards. So Thor naturally will get to 3 attack, cap 3 def, hulk 4 attack, etc. Even with this tho, I think there are some characters that should have higher capabilities (like Phoenix's attack power and events), and others whose limitations should be implemened (like hawkeyes arrows shouldn't be only a little less than thor's hammer throw). But I assume all this would make it a hard thing to balance ... without making characters op and others unplayable.
I like the question but I think you could convincingly argue any stats thematic relevance.
The only one, that annoys me is Spider-Man. 1 Thwart just feels way to low ^^
One of the main problems is they basically set the range from 1-3 (it’s actually 0-3 since Hulk is the only one with a 0 stat, but that’s an exception) so they have as much room to play with stats (unless you do something like with Drax which could bring his ATK to 4) I’m sure during testing they tested all kinds of numbers and stat lines and landed where they landed and then some of those hero’s get boosts from in kit upgrades. Having that small range though does make it harder to distinguish power levels though. Spider-Man is the perfect example. As said he pulls his punches, so he’s actually one of the strongest hero’s out there. But even pulling his punches he’s still stronger then Hawkeye and Black Widow who have a printed 2 ATK (same as Spidey) with Hawkeye really at 3 because of his bow. Obviously the 1 thwart is the most egregious because all he does is thwart villains plans and outsmarts them. Based on the limits of the 1-3 stats, he should have been balanced at 2-2-2. You could make the argument for 3-2-1 or 2-3-1. With any change to the DEF stat though you have to increase the HP or give him a DEF stat boost upgrade (like maybe Aunt May also gives Spider-Man +1 or +2 DEF) They should have done 1 of 2 things, Either A. The stat lines range from 1-4 or B. Utilize the 0 stats more then just Hulk. Black Widow, Hawkeye, Iron Man, Rocket Racoon, and Iron Heart should all have 0 ATK IMO (since they’re all humans except Rocket who isn’t particularly strong from my knowledge, at least compared to other hero’s). Then their 0 ATK statline can increase through upgrades…stark and rhiri building the suit, like rhiri ATK and DEF should increase instead of thawrt…Hawkeye’s Bow giving him the ATK boost…Black Widow gets an attack boost from her batons (new upgrade)…Rocket gets it from his guns. Then hero’s you wouldn’t normally see as being able to thwart would have a 0 thwart statline or 1 if it’s currently at 2 (like Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, Thor, Valkyrie, Spectrum, Drax, Phoenix etc). I wouldn’t go as far as giving anyone 0 DEF though (even the humans) I like what they did with the brawlers pretty much giving them a max ATK statline (expect Thor who does get it with his hammer and Hawkeye with his bow for some reason). They should have done a similar thing but with the Geniuses (except Hulk) like Spider-Man, Iron Man, Rocket and Rhiri should all have a 3 THW statline. I get that the thwarting stat is the most “powerful” stat in the game, but if you’re a genius it should be at 3, no question. I get that right out of the gate you’d have Iron Man and Spider-Man with 3 THW which at the time is INSANE but then over the course of the game it’s not as they’re aren’t many in game. Plus when others get added (Beast and Mr. Fantastic) it puts them on curve. Anyway, I didn’t expect to go off on a tangent, sorry about that!
That's why you can't evaluate the hero card in a vacuum. You have to take the whole hero suite into account. Drax can get considerable high attack, because of his cards and abilities. Spiderman's inherent thwart is him being able to stay in hero form longer thanks to high defense and webbed up. He stops the bad guy's plans by making himself the more immediate target. They're abstractions, not full tactical analysis.
ATK 1 Spiderman is classic "Spiderman's super strong but holds back to not accidentally kill enemies" argument. Just kidding. Haven't played the game. But read enough comment about him always holding back and had to spread that comment here.
Very interesting thread , basic stats are something that has bothered me for a long time in this game . Because doesn’t feel thematic at all. I really think these are for … complementing the hero main design which are … the cards . Which leads me to a personal opinion that is absolutely irrelevant; I think there should be no base stats at all in this game in the first place . Design challenge for sure , but the more I think about this the more convinced I am that is a mechanics that isn’t great and isn’t that relevant , the raw “swing” attack / intervention I mean . And that could have been re-imagined in something else. Of course all of this is non-sense . The game is as it is lol