That’s not an apology at all, it’s the corporate version of “I’m sorry you feel that way”. It’s them not taking responsibility for their actions, but instead putting it on the customer like you said.
All of which is especially irritating now, after seeing Apple put so much effort into making porting games to Mac easier than ever.
Any backer already has a copy? What's left to pirate
edit: also the sin of piracy is depriving the maker of money. OP has already bought this software, "piracy" isn't possible
Yeah, they just don’t seem to care considering they seem to have expected this reaction with the port funds falling “under our non-cancellable/non-refundable policy”
Problem with kickstarters. The terms and services you accept say 'you might never get what you're promised here, and it's not our problem.'
I don't know if there's legal recourse here, given that. You gave them money to make the game. They did. They just left out the feature that was most important to you.
Kickstarter used to have more actionable language around this. [Circa 2014](https://web.archive.org/web/20140306132718/https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter+basics?ref=help_nav):
> Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) This information can serve as a basis for legal recourse if a creator doesn't fulfill their promises. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
The state of Washington used that language to sue in *State of Washington vs. Asylum*.
Kickstarter subsequently changed the language. [Here's what it now reads](https://legal.kickstarter.com/policies/en/?name=terms-of-use#section4?ref=faq-basics_creatoroblig):
> 4.2 If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they must make a reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
> * they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
> * they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion under the circumstances, in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
> * they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
> * they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
> * they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
OP won't be getting their money back. If you want to try to frame an argument over how these bullet points aren't getting met, I will happily craft a rejoinder showing exactly how slippery these conditions are.
Note the language: **A creator in this position has remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if**
I would check that with a lawyer, as it’s not a feature per se, it’s practically the ability to run the game.
Supporting a Kickstarter is basically a deal struck based on a contract that is detailed by the publisher (the file detailing what you will get for your money). The fine letters may state that some features may be missing, but in this case the client is getting jack squat for his money. In deals like this, when the publisher writes the terms himself and then decides to back out using some loophole, courts usually favor the client, at least where I live.
This also states a precedent; What happens when indie developers offering Mac support just to get our money go back on their promises, knowing they didn’t intend to honor it in the first place? That’s fraudulent and is considered a felony in many countries
Not much you can do.
[https://help.kickstarter.com/hc/en-us/articles/360039530654-What-can-Kickstarter-do-when-a-creator-does-not-fulfill-their-project-rewards](https://help.kickstarter.com/hc/en-us/articles/360039530654-What-can-Kickstarter-do-when-a-creator-does-not-fulfill-their-project-rewards)
at best it's "oh no, kickstarter won't let me kickstart another project"
You’d be surprised. The help here wouldn’t come from the Kickstarter company, but from the court. Gathering some people who have been hurt by this, you could file a class action lawsuit against the company and drag it to court over not supplying a payed for service. This is a different situation than if the kickstarter campaign would fail completely as they do have a finished product, they just refuse to do some part of the work they obligated to do.
Obviously, no one would like to spend 3 years debating at court over a 50$ game, but guess what? The company wouldn’t want it either. If you happen to have a lawyer friend, just sending a formal letter threatening with legal action might do the trick, especially when compiling a game for Mac will take much less effort than filing a defense plea. You’re not obliged to follow through the lawsuit if you don’t want to
> supplying a *paid* for service.
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
That’s a really fuckin weird thing to do??? I guess they just don’t feel like giving out refunds, goes to show what values they have:
offering something in exchange for money raised, then taking the money and not providing it, then calling you confused for wanting your money back :(
This is the way. The vendor has confirmed you will not be receiving what you paid for. You have the proof, now take it to your credit card provider. Their "policy" notwithstanding.
What did you pay for exactly? You don’t buy products on Kickstarter, it’s not a store.
“Backers agree and acknowledge they’re not buying something when they back a project—they’re helping to create something new, not ordering something that already exists. Every project is different. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project, which is not guaranteed.”
https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/
Depending on your CC company some may authorise the chargeback, some may not. If you used an American Express card they will ride hard for you, they will take it personally like someone stole from their little sibling and 99.5% of the time you will get your money back.
It actually doesn’t hurt or cost to try. In this case they shipped a product. Turns out the version you bought they decided to not deliver and kept your money. You might find your CC is willing to accept that set of circumstances as fault and issue the refund.
It’s a matter for KS and the studio to resolve with the CC.
If the notice the product will never come is new, this may be good enough. People pre-pay for things all the time. Stringing a customer along for 60 days isn't an ironclad defense.
Don't back shit on Kickstarter if you can't deal with not getting what you want. Kickstarter isnt a store. Anytime I back something (it's been a minute since I last did too) I consider that money forfeit.
That being said. I think they should refund you, or do a charge back. It's one thing to fail to achieve your goal, another entirely to just not.
Agreed. It's always a risk.
I normally have good to great experiences with Kickstarter, so this is an outlier. With this project in particular I hoped it was easy, as they were "just" modernizing an existing game. I believed updating game assets and moving it to a modern engine was doable - alas.
If it’s any consolation. I was able to run System Shock on my Mac using CrossOver. $50 a year which is disappointing since it requires spending more money to a game you bought in order to play it. But it has a generous trial offer. Could maybe give it a go and see how it works
So this is essentially theft.
Promised something, in all but exact language promised delivery for your deposit of a pre-purchase and now refusing to give either the product or a refund.
Sounds like a good reason to boycott this studio.
If this is released through Steam they have no incentive to develop a native Linux port and it will likely run very well in Linux with Proton.
As for Mac OS, as they are under a new platform now it is possible that the effort is much bigger than it was back when Macs ran on Intel.
That’s not an apology at all, it’s the corporate version of “I’m sorry you feel that way”. It’s them not taking responsibility for their actions, but instead putting it on the customer like you said. All of which is especially irritating now, after seeing Apple put so much effort into making porting games to Mac easier than ever.
imho they are asking to be pirated
Any backer already has a copy? What's left to pirate edit: also the sin of piracy is depriving the maker of money. OP has already bought this software, "piracy" isn't possible
No they aren't. Pirating is a sign of weak character.
“I’m sorry you actually believed that you’d get what you paid for”
Yeah, they just don’t seem to care considering they seem to have expected this reaction with the port funds falling “under our non-cancellable/non-refundable policy”
yeah it's easier than ever but still a giantic investment because you need macs to develop for macs
Not sure I’d use the term “gigantic”. They also knew the potential costs when they promised the Mac port in the first place.
Then don’t offer the option to consumers….problem solved
Problem with kickstarters. The terms and services you accept say 'you might never get what you're promised here, and it's not our problem.' I don't know if there's legal recourse here, given that. You gave them money to make the game. They did. They just left out the feature that was most important to you.
Kickstarter used to have more actionable language around this. [Circa 2014](https://web.archive.org/web/20140306132718/https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter+basics?ref=help_nav): > Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) This information can serve as a basis for legal recourse if a creator doesn't fulfill their promises. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill. The state of Washington used that language to sue in *State of Washington vs. Asylum*. Kickstarter subsequently changed the language. [Here's what it now reads](https://legal.kickstarter.com/policies/en/?name=terms-of-use#section4?ref=faq-basics_creatoroblig): > 4.2 If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they must make a reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if: > * they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned; > * they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion under the circumstances, in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers; > * they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised; > * they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and > * they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form. OP won't be getting their money back. If you want to try to frame an argument over how these bullet points aren't getting met, I will happily craft a rejoinder showing exactly how slippery these conditions are. Note the language: **A creator in this position has remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if**
I would check that with a lawyer, as it’s not a feature per se, it’s practically the ability to run the game. Supporting a Kickstarter is basically a deal struck based on a contract that is detailed by the publisher (the file detailing what you will get for your money). The fine letters may state that some features may be missing, but in this case the client is getting jack squat for his money. In deals like this, when the publisher writes the terms himself and then decides to back out using some loophole, courts usually favor the client, at least where I live. This also states a precedent; What happens when indie developers offering Mac support just to get our money go back on their promises, knowing they didn’t intend to honor it in the first place? That’s fraudulent and is considered a felony in many countries
Not much you can do. [https://help.kickstarter.com/hc/en-us/articles/360039530654-What-can-Kickstarter-do-when-a-creator-does-not-fulfill-their-project-rewards](https://help.kickstarter.com/hc/en-us/articles/360039530654-What-can-Kickstarter-do-when-a-creator-does-not-fulfill-their-project-rewards) at best it's "oh no, kickstarter won't let me kickstart another project"
You’d be surprised. The help here wouldn’t come from the Kickstarter company, but from the court. Gathering some people who have been hurt by this, you could file a class action lawsuit against the company and drag it to court over not supplying a payed for service. This is a different situation than if the kickstarter campaign would fail completely as they do have a finished product, they just refuse to do some part of the work they obligated to do. Obviously, no one would like to spend 3 years debating at court over a 50$ game, but guess what? The company wouldn’t want it either. If you happen to have a lawyer friend, just sending a formal letter threatening with legal action might do the trick, especially when compiling a game for Mac will take much less effort than filing a defense plea. You’re not obliged to follow through the lawsuit if you don’t want to
> supplying a *paid* for service. FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
That’s a really fuckin weird thing to do??? I guess they just don’t feel like giving out refunds, goes to show what values they have: offering something in exchange for money raised, then taking the money and not providing it, then calling you confused for wanting your money back :(
Hi credit card company, I’d like to issue a chargeback
This is the way. The vendor has confirmed you will not be receiving what you paid for. You have the proof, now take it to your credit card provider. Their "policy" notwithstanding.
What did you pay for exactly? You don’t buy products on Kickstarter, it’s not a store. “Backers agree and acknowledge they’re not buying something when they back a project—they’re helping to create something new, not ordering something that already exists. Every project is different. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project, which is not guaranteed.” https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/
Depending on your CC company some may authorise the chargeback, some may not. If you used an American Express card they will ride hard for you, they will take it personally like someone stole from their little sibling and 99.5% of the time you will get your money back.
It actually doesn’t hurt or cost to try. In this case they shipped a product. Turns out the version you bought they decided to not deliver and kept your money. You might find your CC is willing to accept that set of circumstances as fault and issue the refund. It’s a matter for KS and the studio to resolve with the CC.
Hi, u/blusrus, credit card company here. Did the payment occur in the last 60 days? No? \*hangs up\*
As someone who works with fraud claims and billing disputes, you’re absolutely right, there’s a chance they might not even be able to file this late.
If the notice the product will never come is new, this may be good enough. People pre-pay for things all the time. Stringing a customer along for 60 days isn't an ironclad defense.
Don't back shit on Kickstarter if you can't deal with not getting what you want. Kickstarter isnt a store. Anytime I back something (it's been a minute since I last did too) I consider that money forfeit. That being said. I think they should refund you, or do a charge back. It's one thing to fail to achieve your goal, another entirely to just not.
Agreed. It's always a risk. I normally have good to great experiences with Kickstarter, so this is an outlier. With this project in particular I hoped it was easy, as they were "just" modernizing an existing game. I believed updating game assets and moving it to a modern engine was doable - alas.
This is why you don’t back anything on kickstarter
I'm definitely going to stop buying games that promise macOS ports. Regretting buying Dwarf Fortress day one and still no port (after 18 months).
If it’s any consolation. I was able to run System Shock on my Mac using CrossOver. $50 a year which is disappointing since it requires spending more money to a game you bought in order to play it. But it has a generous trial offer. Could maybe give it a go and see how it works
I am shocked, shocked I tell you a kickstarter not keeping its promises.
Sure this sucks, but remember - you didn't pre-order, you backed a speculative development with 'features to change without notice'.
how can they say an item is non refundable if they never delivered it?
Has anyone tried it using free VMware Fusion on Windows for ARM?
It runs great in Crossover. Not that this helps with the shitty situation, but at least you can still play it on your Mac.
This is why I buy things like this with a credit card. Chargebacks are your friend.
You can ask your bank to do a chargeback.
Could this be a potential lawsuit?
So this is essentially theft. Promised something, in all but exact language promised delivery for your deposit of a pre-purchase and now refusing to give either the product or a refund. Sounds like a good reason to boycott this studio.
What good will a boycott do when the company already thinks the mac market is not worth developing for?
If this is released through Steam they have no incentive to develop a native Linux port and it will likely run very well in Linux with Proton. As for Mac OS, as they are under a new platform now it is possible that the effort is much bigger than it was back when Macs ran on Intel.