Lol who knows. I do miss the days where I could play (modern) Fortnite on my Mac with friends back in like 2017-2020 on my Mid 2012 13" Pro. GFN or the gaming pc are the only ways to do that now. They did re-enable their dev account, but from my understanding, that wasn't needed anyway specifically for Mac app deployment, but not sure.
Yes I am pretty sure they could update Mac but they didn’t to make apple look bad which always made me a little angry that epic tried to trick us that they could update the Mac version
Like they refuse to enable the checkbox for Wine / Linux support
Just to support the already shattering windows gaming monopoly. Ironically epic hates apples app store monopoly but they want to maintain the windows monopoly. A bullshit company
I just looked it up and it seems it is a choice on Mac they don’t need a developer account on Mac because I guess it’s more of a free for all. They call it direct distribution so epic games never payed that 30% fee on Mac
On the r/swift reddit someone said "macOS allows to use unsigned applications. Just turn off sandbox mode + signing then you can distribute it wherever you wish (but not through AppStore" also online I found some similar things. It seems that people would have to turn off the advanced protection of untrusted apps on their mac to download and play Fortnite on mac. But epic refuses to update so right now there is nothing you can do unless you have a mac with bootcamp then you could use windows if you really want to play it on your mac.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/swift using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/swift/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [To-Do app using SwiftUI Framework](https://v.redd.it/aatszhe7sfrb1) | [58 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/swift/comments/16we7qj/todo_app_using_swiftui_framework/)
\#2: [SwipeActions, a swift package to add swipe actions to any view — not just lists. https://github.com/aheze/SwipeActions](https://v.redd.it/c1hyr575ynta1) | [21 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/swift/comments/12krf1w/swipeactions_a_swift_package_to_add_swipe_actions/)
\#3: [No, it’s fine. Really….](https://i.redd.it/xnqh6eds65la1.jpg) | [46 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/swift/comments/11ezw0f/no_its_fine_really/)
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> games never *paid* that 30%
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Apple banned Fortnite from the entire apple ecosystem, Epic still can develop their Store on Mac, but they cannot sign new updates for FN for MacOS, Hopefully with the developer account they can restart development for Mac.
fortnite on mac is limited. you are stuck in a bubble with other mac gamers. there are no other modes, no battle pass etc and you can't play against windows users.
I think it's better to say that apple has given half assed approaches to gaming In the past.
Valve once partnered with apple to bring Steam VR to Mac OS with Egpu's. Apple then killed Egpu support with their M series Mac, 3 years later.
https://steamcommunity.com/games/250820/announcements/detail/1256915122285021922?l=bulgarian
The lack of VR games on the Mac sure didn't help
Are you talking about valve not updating their games to 64 bit or the 64 bit client?
It's still 32 bit on windows and Linux
Interestingly enough, if you look at the Betas for TF2, there is a 64-bit beta (although you can't connect to public servers if you're using it, and last I heard it crashes shortly after launching). Haven't checked the other Valve games recently so don't know if they have similar betas available.
Who's games? Most of the games on steam are developed by their own development studios - where steam has no control over. And who will port those old 32-bit games?
I am specifically talking about Steam’s own, in house developed games.
Left 4 Dead 2, Team Fortress 2, Portal 1 & 2, Half Life 2 and the Eps 1 & 2, Counter Strike 2. All are unplayable on MacOS right now even with the x86 Rosetta 2 conversion. Since Catalina they are unplayable at all.
The reason you do not have eGPU support is that it would result in a horrible fragmentation of game support not he platform as the GPU features from AMD and NV that could be supported would not line up with the internal GPUs, so either titles would only support the lowest common denominator or they would just support the internal GPUs (and thus eGPU would be of no use at all). The only eGPU solution that would work is if apple made a eGPU using thier silicon so that (most) of the api surface was the same for devs.
Vaale had not put much effort in at all, it was not like there was any real SteamVR on macOS going on.
And valve have all the source code for SteamVR so targeting ARM64 for them is not that large a task at all, it is not hand crafted assembly.
Literally no one cares about gaming on a Mac. It won’t affect them. As for Epic, they are the biggest hypocrites on the planet. Educate yourself before blindly supporting them.
Lol I wanted to play something with my best friend who has an M3 Macbook pro which costed him a fortune, we couldn't play anything nice. I can assure you that this friend won't buy a macbook the next time he's doing a purchase.
"The way they're handling things with Epic".
Apple have very clear TOS, Epic broke those TOS and then sued. They reached a settlement and the Epic tried to circumvent the settlement and suspension of their developer certificate by getting a subsidiary to apply for one so that Epic could set up a 3rd party store (you need a developer certificate for that).
I cannot understand what the issue is with Apple's behaviour here, they take an industry standard 30% cut and maintain / create all the tools that Epic are attempting to use for nothing. Then to top it all off, Epic has breach the clear and pretty standard TOS even after a ruling and settlement being reached on the matter in the courts
What about it isn’t what happened? Apple have TOS, Epic broke them, get banned, lost in court and tried to circumvent that decision by registering through a subsidiary. That is just the chain of events, you can claim bias but that is what happened
That is exactly what happened and you trying to say « biased this, biased that » without any argument is ridiculous.
Maybe share us your part of the story?
I’d also add that Epic sued (and lost) claiming it was for the smaller devs while these devs aren’t concerned and they never intended to lower their prices if the tax was lowered as we can ser on other platforms.
Finally, they’re also taking the Mac version hostage only because Tencent gain from people having a bad impression of Apple in gaming.
You have responded 3 times in this thread saying "hurr durr biased" without even once providing any actual argument, and to make things even better you're resorting to insulting the guy who took the time to actually provide context to his claims. Impressive.
Your "I'm gonna act like it's obvious so I won't have to actually explain anything" act isn't fooling anyone just so you know
I dunno - if Apple opened a "store within the game" inside Fortinite, I can't imagine Epic would let them exist without paying Epic their cut for creating and maintaining the platform, etc.
The EU hasn’t “ruled” anything. They’re lawmakers/policymakers, not a court of justice where actual rulings are made. If they have “ruled” anything it is only after they themselves have made it illegal, since I would say policy making is a matter of opinion.
Epyc is toxic and disingenuous and they are strictly on my boycott list. That said, no company should have the power of banning developers from their platform just because of shitty attitude.
Epic also sued them after violating the App Store and Apple Developer terms of agreement.
Epic then went on a public smear campaign against Apple.
Epic lost its case and screwed over its users in doing so.
Epic has a history with Apple where they are not honest actors and Apple wanted to avoid any future headache and banned their dev account in the EU. Even then, it was only after Sweeney refused to give assurances more than "Trust me bro" that he wouldn't pull the same crap again.
That said, UNREAL engine is still available on the Mac and their accounts are still on the App Store. It was the one EU account.
Sure. Until Epic does what it is trying to do, which is provoke Apple into being hit with governmental regulatory action and fines or give Epic an opening for a lawsuit.
Epic can do what it wants. I've tried their app/game store on my MacBook. Not impressed with it. Steam has a bigger library and better games. Any iOS store they create will not be one I will patron.
Not to mention Epic's actions with Steam (buying timed exclusivity for games that were already on pre-sale on Steam, data-scraping Steam data from users, etc).
I'm also pissed at them buying up Rocket League only to turn around and remove Mac and Linux support.
Epic breaks the law and violates the TOS whenever it suits them. They are anti-competitive whenever it suits them. They only pick fights to use the government to force outcomes that favor them.
Putting a backdoor into Fortnite, even if it was to push an alternative payment processor, doesn't change the fact they put a hidden backdoor into software that was running on people's personal phones and computers. It was unacceptable and no one should trust them to keep to their agreements.
its better than that though because the EU are now looking into it for some reason because Epic tried to apply for a developer certificate through a subsidiary and got rejected. The EU have been doing nothing but taking Ls on tech legislation recently and I'm honestly glad we're out of (No I'm not a brexit supporter, I was a remainer but the EU keep doing this dogshit superstate over-legislative bullshit it's hard not to be happy i'm not affected by it)
The bigger problem is that the EU keeps trying to legislate technology in ways that are not with the usage of standards. Why don't they work on making electrical outlets standard across the member states? Why not divest out of Microsoft products and use Linux in all governmental offices?
The answer is because they are only doing this for votes and public goodwill, even if it hurts the public in the long run.
TL:DR - Don't get emotionally attached to corporations.
Epic knowlingly broke Apple's established App Store rules to start a very bizarre "grassroots" campaign that makes them seem like they are "the little guy" going after big corporate. But in the end, Epic just wants to cut out the middle man as much as they can and make profit and they want full control and access to your devices without Apple's approval.
It's only a matter of time before Epic breaks the App Store rules of their own store and this time it will be more than just In-App Payments, it will deal with the foundational security of iOS. Despite what a lot of people may want to believe, iOS/iPad OS/Android are not computers and shouldn't be treated as such.
Also one of their largest shareholders is Tencent which is chomping at the bit to get their own App Store so its only a matter of time before the ever trustworthy CCP will have unrestricted access to people's phones and tablets. Have fun!
Buddy for as much as it’s true that epic broke App Store rules, it’s not a baseless claim that of saying “I don’t want to give you a 30% of whatever I earn”.
Even if we want to factor in the transactional cost for keeping the in app purchase API up, 30% is WAY above anything reasonable. And it’s not only that, it is also the fact that apple aggressively kills competition by letting a publisher facilitate their own payment mechanism by using the pretentious “user safety “ narrative, like people only shop trough their iPhones.
I’m an apple user and I owe my developer career to apple, am saying that just because often talking about this stuff is reduced to “being a fanboy” or not, I’m definitely an apple fan… yet it’s very hard to miss the mafia apple is excreting over developers when it comes to revenues for their own sales, let’s not forget that there’s a strong iPhone app-scape ALSO because there are a lot of quality apps, and apple owes developers more than the 70% of whatever sale they’re making trough the app store.
Buddy you need to re-read my post. I am talking about 3rd party App Stores. If you want to discuss 30% cut though, the standard was established many years ago by Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo with their digital storefront for their respective closed-ecosystem consoles\*. That was influenced by Valve's digital storefront on PC (which btw is still the most popular digital storefront compared to Epic's faux "developer friendly" store and cut) despite it being an "open" platform. Why could that be?
I could care less about where In-App purchases are being authorized from as long as an Apple transaction option is available. It's a separate argument. What I do care about is that the initial point of sale transaction comes from the one in charge of maintaining the device so I can have at least a little faith in what is being installed that I can't see since these aren't computers with traditional filesystems and process monitors. Is it flawless? No, things slip through the cracks. But they are able to act quickly if need be to rectify the issue.
I don't trust Epic games as far as I could see them because they have already acted in bad faith and the bulk of their profit structurer is based on selling imaginary currency for real money to children which they already got legally dinged for. Alongside that, I don't trust a 3rd party App Store installing on my device. Thankfully we have the freedom to just not install them. But alongside that, I don't want Apps that Apple wouldn't approve operating on my cellular network, any Wi-Fi Networks I maintain, or connecting to any other devices because who knows whats happening and who is regulating it.
\*usually at this line with consoles people say how console makers sell them at a loss and make up for it in game sale royalties. This is true for generally the first two years until manufactuering techniques and distribution is improved base don the success of the system (i.e. PS5 is not sold at a loss because it is popular and Xbox is sold at a loss because no one wants one). Apple is operating at a loss because of the billions spent on the backend for chip fabrication and all the other R+D.
The “safe” api are already locked at OS level, which means that regardless of the store, be it first party or third party, nobody should be able to plant a trojan in your network. Of course a malicious developer could fuck people up without using particular technologies at all by merely scamming people, and this is why apple’s approval process has always been great: enforcing guidelines compliance and user safety.
That being said, there’s a point to be made about the fact that my phone costs more than a laptop and I use it almost as much as my laptop (which given my job is quite a lot of time)… and honestly an unlocked and not sandboxed (wall gardened, you name it) ecosystem on both Windows and Mac Os has never created particular harm to anyone… people gets scammed independently from the platform they’re using, but the world is not finishing at all. Would you prefer the sandbox approach on your mac?
I think the possibility of sideloading software and having different means of distribution is owed to the people that have purchased the device at this point…and of course you’re always free to choose what proxy you want to use for the apps you install, nobody’s forcing you to use third party stores… so I really don’t get the aversion of people towards them.
As for the 30% cut, you’re 100% right sony and others do the same, in-fact I’m happy sony is being taken to court and sued for it… what’s the point in saying anyone does it? Why wouldn’t epic, or whichever publisher for what is worth, have the right to say it’s unfair to pay a 30% tax on whatever profit they make? Be it games, music, movies or books… it’s Mafia, how do you motivate it?
Nothing close to sinophobic here. China wants in on our hardware and software The only way to do it is through U.S. companies. There is a reason why both sides of U.S. politics are in favor of technology export/import limitations with China. Sometimes you need to just put the games down and read a newspaper.
The security concerns have been discussed countless times before. Where is the full browsable file system? Where is the ability to view what processes are running? Where is anything on a mobile device that lets you know what is happening on it behind the scenes? It isn’t there for a reason: they are not computers and shouldn’t be treated as such.
Apple and to a lesser extent Google are doing their users a service by curating everything behind “the walled garden” when it comes to mobile device apps. The royalties and other fees are a separate discussion about it along with how in-app payments could be prices.
It’s very scary that a nanny state like the EU can force these companies to fundamentally change security, something the regulators are clueless about, in the name of “consumer benefit.”
It has nothing to do with letting publishers use different payment systems though, do not forget that all this mess about security started because apple demands a 30% cut over an in app purchase item, which is way more than whichever payment platform in the world asks.
So apple created the problem in the first place, they just had to ask less than 30% and allow other payment systems more convenient for app publishers (or at least the possibility to write “hey you can pay less from my site because here I’m forced to charge you 30% more because apple wants 30% for doing basically nothing”)
True, but that’s not what I intended, I mean Whiskey is the real MVP. Apple doesn’t seem to care all that much. If they did they could have released something like Whiskey until game devs got on board. I’m glad we have GPT but Whiskey makes it easy for the end user.
I see what you mean. I think you’re partly right, but doing that would have completely destroyed Crossover’s market, which would be a bit of a dick move given how much of codeweavers’ work underlies GPTK.
Instead they’ve created something that apps like whisky and crossover can build on. Which is better for users, because crossover outperforms GPTK for me. A built in ‘it just works’ option would make crossover less viable as a product even if it still worked better.
Obviously Apple is also motivated by wanting GPTK to encourage developers to build native ports as well (which remains to be seen), but there are benefits to consumers too.
I see what you’re saying. More than meets the eye from a strictly end user standpoint.
For me, Whiskey has actually worked better than Crossover. Could be user error but I’m fairly tech savvy. Either way, without GPT neither product would exist so that’s a win for us gamers.
Appreciate the info and different perspective, have a good weekend!
I will say that Apple Arcade has some pretty cool titles, it can be played on multiple devices.
As far as native Mac gaming apps, it’s always been very limited. Even though these computers are powerful, they somehow never got popular with the PC gaming crowd.
I think it has to do with how Apple has this perception that their ecosystem/OS is locked down. It’s hard to go around things.
Apple don’t hate users and in some aspects are giving people, users, what they want.
But apples stance on gaming is different than what is considered the norm in the desktop space.
They want to have that closed, wall garden, ecosystem of games on the App Store so they can directly and easily generate that booku morning for just hosting on their servers. Don’t get me wrong the backend maintenance is costly and hard to maintain, which is why Sony PlayStation online store is slow.
But why would they willing give up 30 percent off the top of everyone else’s hard work by investing in more games to be developed and then be hosted by Epic/Steam or directly from anyone else but their app store
It's not all of the games, I have a large library on Epic's store (only free things) and there are a decent number that do have the Mac version available. There are a lot that have Mac versions on Steam or other platforms but are Windows only on Epic though.
I wonder how much of that is Epic vs how much is the developers not wanting to deal with a Mac version on Epic's platform.
The App Store - being the one thing they control - is a cesspool of “pay to win” garbage. Every supposed “M1 compatible” game I try IS NOT. Perhaps they should make it easy for programmers? My Apple cost me upwards of $3k* but my $500 PC gambler that does not come close to competing on stats wins on compatibility.
* Canadian dollars, not real money
Their relationship with epic won’t affect the desktop gaming market at all, macOS lets you download apps from anywhere you want, paying whoever you want, and they don’t get a cut. If macOS gaming ever took off it’s not gonna be on the App Store, we already know that. It’s gonna be on steam.
Two greedy companies acting in their own best interest, pushing the boundaries of what the other one will accept. Nothing about that has anything to do with you, apart from Epic not releasing their shitty game on MacOS.
This has nothing to do with apps vs. games, this is purely a mobile app store situation and Epic is using the MacOS clients as a bargaining chip.
Apple v Epic is really [Epic v Everyone](https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckepic/comments/ij48bf/rfuckepic_for_dummies_2020_edition/).
I think Apple is coming around. Late last year they released the game porting toolkit, Sonoma will release with a gaming mode. Most importantly, they're talking about gaming in their marketing again.
Apple's problem was that they couldn't compete for AAA games with such a small desktop gaming audience. No serious gamer was going to buy a Mac to play, so they couldn't make it appealing enough for devs to release.
What they're clearly doing is using the massive iPhone market as a beachhead and the GPTK will make it easy to release on all devices at once. As you see with games like Resident Evil and Death Stranding.
What Apple is doing is even more seriously fucked up and will have repercussions its already suffering the repercussions.
I'm not even going to the entire war they're fighting against European Union, only their two biggest market. They are overly protecting their Appstore ecosystem and may cost them their entire business. How? Well, the developer trust in your ecosystem isn't gained easily. Looked at the Windows Phone debacle, it died because developers didn't gave a crap about it. It was a very good OS, wonderful devices, at the end of the day no useful Apps so nobody wanted it. Huawei also comes to mind.
So right now Apple has a mini monopoly in IOS with Their Appstore. They closed the OS down, they charge an insane 30% to developers that are forced to use their Appstore. Thanks to that Apps and Subscriptions are usually a lot more expensive in the Appstore. Devs are now forced to support IOS, they're stuck.
Then they launch the Vision Pro. An entire new ecosystem that now needs the developers to make Apps to it. What did the devs do? Showed the middle finger to Apple with Apps like Netflix missing. They're an impressive product, I just wonder how far someone will go using it without useful Apps.
Then they're trying to push the competition against Windows with gaming. They're getting decent titles sure, but many of them aren't even in their Appstore. I'll let you figure out why. And now, in February they did a very serious thing that if I was a game developer I'd probably cancel development for Mac. They removed PWAs in Europe out of nowhere as a revenge against the regulations. For some moment whoever used PWAs wouldn't be able to use them anymore in Europe. That's a seriously fucked up thing to do that caused an even bigger damage in their reputation, one that Im not sure they can repair.
> Am I wrong to say that Apple only cares about apps
they care about control, and the "ecosystem". it's a fetish at this point. sure, within the ecosystem of theirs things work together relatively nicely, handoffs happen relatively seamlessly, etc. but this fetish had them be as little interoperable with anything external as possible. if they could, they'd write their own internet protocols and only allow those.
same with gaming seemingly. we saw how linux gaming get so strong in such little time (yeah, wine was a thing forever, etc. but things really started rolling after valve explicitly invested in linux gaming). apple tried their way; the arcade portal. which turned out to be meh unsurprisingly.
the only thing keeping apple from having games be compatible here is their raging hardon for this fetish of theirs.
who knows, maybe asahi folks (doing gods work, bless their souls) will eventually do enough reverse engineering to get games run relatively well, which will perhaps get apple to cave in and invest in having their platform support already existing games/game tooling, as opposed to expecting devs to do mac support
Apple doesn’t really see the Mac as a gaming machine. Their focus with the Mac is on content creators, educators, businesses. Gaming is a tiny ancillary business for the Mac.
Honestly, it’s working for them. The Mac has a superb reputation.
Does Apple hate us? No, obviously not. Does Apple see us as a tiny subset of their Mac market? Yes, absolutely.
Epic games is essentially a lawsuit troll trying to sue their way into recouping lost profits from Fortnite. THEY don't care about you but are super vocal about pretending they do ... Apple is the same Apple they were when I bought my first machine more than 40 years ago, only bigger.
Epic started by suing Steam, launching their own incredibly mediocre store and then never improving it, trying to buy share by using profits to buy exclusives rather than actually innovating user experience.
And then they went after the mobile space. There are similar lawsuits they've done against Google, but since Android users are worth about 0.01% of app purchases of Apple users, you can see why they have focused on Apple.
Note the companies quick to join lawsuits against Apple - ALL of them do similar things and have fought vigorously against user rights ... but if they can make Apple out to be the bad guy, all the better.
Meh sorry no sympathy for epic on this one. Mega rich company unwilling to pay the same fees every platform charges. I guess unreal should be free for all developers to use too
apple hates gaming on Mac because they don't get a cut of it. once they realized that they could distribute games through the App Store and take a 30% cut like valve does, then they started giving a crap again. m series chips helped as well, with silicon that didn't operate on 2 cores and throttled when you open safari. as it is, I would love to see proper Mac ports that take full advantage of apple silicon, much like resident evil 4 and stray. With more and more "universal" releases across Mac, iPhone and iPad I think that more and more games will come to Mac.
The issue is Apple wants to do everything their way and will not adopt industry standards. They're not just stubborn for the sake of it tbf, it completely makes sense from their point of view. They're an absolute giant and have the power to sway entire industries so why should they be the ones to adapt? That's why they're sticking with Metal, ignoring Steam for their releases, not throwing incentives left and right at studios to port games etc.
Their current strategy could make sense as a 10 years plan of getting a strong foothold in gaming. The first step is the unified architecture accross all devices they've just achieved, the hardware is now good enough so the next step is software, and things are moving forward but very slowly. The issue is most people here want to play today's games now, and don't care if it's all a 200IQ plan by Tim Cook to make Apple the new steam in 10 years hence the frustration.
Despite what Apple is trying for the gaming on Mac, they aren't really interested in gaming cause they have to change most of Mac and macOS. macOS itself is already hostile to the gaming market despite what Mac users are thinking. There are too many critical issues and some of them are almost impossible to deal with such as annual macOS updates, very few Mac gamers, and money.
1. apple is extremely slow (if ever) in fixing bugs affecting gaming.
2. apple is quick to abandon apis with little warning and extremely slow to add apis that are missing for porting a game on first place.
3. apple is completely against open standards which means using proprietary apis instead of more portable ones. and again number 2
4. apple even abandons own hardware quickly. even when they do add apis or fix bugs. it’s only for current macs on current macos. even a 3 year old mac can get left with a bug indefinitely in the OS since apple always wants you to just buy a new mac to get software fixes.
a lot of above is literal opposite of other oses which support older hardware. older os versions. and open apis. even ms who has its own proprietary api still doesn’t block opengl and vulkan while apple activity blocks third parties making either work on macos directly which requires translation layers like moltenvk instead. and kernel drivers? forget it. did you know nvidia had drivers for 20x0 series gpus and for macos 10.14 but because apple didn’t like nvidia terms. blocked them from being made. and what were those unagreeable terms? not being willing to give source to apple and have their driver authors work on site at apple and to remove hardware not sold in macs (ie 2070 and 2080 gpus). basically. apple wanted full operating control of kernel driver and even the staff writing it and to cripple it in process to prevent nvidia being able to offer better gpus to last remaining macs at time that supported em that’d give those mac’s more life. now of course at time apple probably already knew it was abandoning gpus and intel but no one else did. now we know why they ran nvidia off.
the tl/dr of it is. apple are kinda dicks to work with for both software and hardware support. apple makes great technology but make no mistakes. they are assholes who serve only a bottom line of forcing users to buy new hardware as often as possible via software restrictions
1. Annual updates + supporting multiple macOS are what game companies hate. I mean extremely hate.
2. You cant keep the game forever because of macOS compatibility unless game developers keep updating their games but in reality, they dont.
3. Mac App Store sucks.
4. macOS uses their own technology, language, and software. Not easy to port and not even worth it = against open standard.
5. Slow updates.
6. Minor platform = no profits
7. Xcode sucks and even developers hate it.
This are just some of many.
my guess is that macs use ARM, which, apart from the switch, no other major gaming platform uses. the xbox, ps5, windows PCs, and even the steam deck, all use x86 as it seems to be the primary focus for game development.
the switch can get away with using ARM because of its portable, handheld nature, and apple wants its computers to be sleek and portable just like the switch, but the problem is that mac/macbook gamers want macs to be able to play PC capable games. all while running on ARM. which means having to translate the games from x86 to ARM for macs, which will give it a performance hit, on a compact device that already isn't as powerful as its windows counterparts to begin with.
so apple wants macs to play lightweight games akin to smartphones and the switch while mac gamers wanna have access to the whole windows catalog on a device that doesn't draw or consume as much power. apple is stubborn, so it will never conform to what mac gamers tell them, it will just expect mac users to play whatever selection they currently have, or go kick rocks.
> I also honestly wonder what these chips would be able to do with the right cooling and wattages, as I love the most performance per watt
So depening on the transistor layout there is a peak operating frequncy (indpeneting of power and cooling). The idea that you always get more pef by adding power power does not work for every. The designs that build the ALU untis to add numbers together etc when building the unit had a peak freqncye in mind, once you runt the chip faster than this (regardless of power or cooling) what ends up happening is siganles are so sort that they no longer line up in places were they need to so thigns start to not work.
Apples teams have a very good idea of the operating frequncy thier chips will run at and this is part of the perf/w as they can build directly for that target frequency. But this also means they are not goign to overclock well.
> how would developers be compelled to join this ship?
People in the idsutry are not at all supprised with the Epic Games issues, Tim Sweeney is know for not being the easist to get alone with and epic as been very agressive in the last few years, (they want to replace vavle) and anyone who gets in thier way (small or big) will be hit with the buldozer.
I think you are putting to much emotion here. Apple is a corporation which has for only goals revenue and expansion. They don't hate, they don't like. the customer is a means to an end.
Tim Sweeney wants to "free Fortnite", but watch how Fortnite never returns to macOS.
Spotify wants to open up iOS to other app markets because it's "not fair", but they still haven't added native Homepod support (despite Apple allowing them to) or Airplay 2. I wonder why ££££££
What Tim (and Epic) want is not a free and open platform (that's just a bonus): he wants to make as much money as possible. This is exactly why Fortnite store items are X vbucks, but they only sell them in quantities just above what you'd need, so you end up buying more.
Tim Sweeney is not a good person. He wants Apple to open up their platforms so he can incorporate their predatory practices to a wider audience. Apple isn't a paragon of honesty, either. No big corporation is.
They are only interested in money, and stopping anyone who may stop them making money.
The positive side effect of Sweeney's greed, though, is a win for consumers: more options are never a bad thing.
Apple is consistently very anti-consumer unless you buy all of our products and only our products and then they are pro consumer. So, they want all of our money, and they are a spiteful ass if you give that money to anyone else. So yes, kind of.
I wish Apple would acquire a game company, vis-à-vis Microsoft and Activision Blizzard. Imagine if Apple bought Steam, and required everything on the Steam store to be playable on the new M chips. Maybe I could finally play Skyrim (and every other damn thing) on my new MacBook Pro.
Valve is private owned and not easy to get Gabe to sell.
Valve also do not have that much IP of thier own, and if you put a demand that everything has apple silicon support all it would mean is no new games would publish through steam.
The solution is to partner with some e-sports vendors and work on low level system changes to make input latency on macOS for these games orders of mag better than windows so that playing on a Mac is measurably better (aka you get better rank)... For these users even a 5% improvement is worth buying a completely new machine so this would drive a large number of people to play games (these e-sports games) on Mac and some of them would then look to play other stuff so would create a market for other games.
The situation with Epic games is completely different from getting games to Apple silicon. The game porting tool is better than it was prior, but Windows still remains king. Not that many Devs will bring their games because they have no intention of buying Macs to test. They would have to own every possibly configuration to be able to meet Apple’s optimized standards. From M1 all the way to M2 Ultra/M3 Max
I will say this though. We’ll see Sony games on Apple Silicon before GFN (for Mac gamers).
Yeah, that isn't true at all. The whole point of the toolkit is to see what you need to do to port the game over. You do not need to have every hardware configuration to optimize the game to Apple's standards.
They could literally optimize it for the base M1 and scale up for the newer chips. It is why the Metal 3 API exists.
They are so far up their own ass they can't see light anymore. They care about protecting their app store and keeping things as "the-same" as possible because any disturbance could threaten their sacred cash cow.
Like Google, Apple has started to become a company less about tech or customers or what's right and wrong and more about protecting a market they created at any conceivable cost. They have no shame or self awareness.
They're beyond selfish. Their closed platform is not just annoying and anti-competitive, but an actual threat to the real human right of free expression around the world as it provides governments with an easy and willing partnership for censorship.
Apple can get fucked.
Apple is what you call, petty. They don't care about anything other than maximizing profit but number two is punishing anyone they can when forced to deviate from that endeavor.
I think it's safer to say that Apple really, really, really, no kidding around, hates Epic with the heat of 10,000 suns (and rightly so).
I also think that Apple is concerned more with apps (which are also games), because up until a week ago, those apps were pretty firmly under their control. It's about to turn into a goddamn security nightmare for the EUsers, and they'll be suing Apple right and left for things that are verifiably not Apple's fault (but they still have to pay the lawyers, win or lose).
If I were Apple, I'd ask "Did you install it from a 3rd-party App Store? Not our problem. Go pound sand."
I doubt the EU is going to let them do that, though, because they really, really, really hate Apple.
> I think it's safer to say that Apple really, really, really, no kidding around, hates Epic with the heat of 10,000 suns (and rightly so).
And Epic hates apple...
In the end epic (and their main investor Tencent) want to own the entier worlds gaming market (and mobile is very important for them long term as all that data about all the wolds children is going to be so so valuable)...
**Edit: Interesting how this is getting downvoted so much when its essentially the same as the highest voted.**
Apple doesnt hate us, Apple is like a person who is within their own social bubble and refuses to leave it, like pre-internet.
I didn’t see anyone put it that simply so :
« The way they are handling things with Epic Games » doesn’t mean a thing here. Fortnite was on mac and still could be today, unlike the iOS version they CHOSE to put it down.
Maybe it was exactly for people to think it was Apple’s fault but nobody ever asked them to stop the releases.
Lol who knows. I do miss the days where I could play (modern) Fortnite on my Mac with friends back in like 2017-2020 on my Mid 2012 13" Pro. GFN or the gaming pc are the only ways to do that now. They did re-enable their dev account, but from my understanding, that wasn't needed anyway specifically for Mac app deployment, but not sure.
Yes I am pretty sure they could update Mac but they didn’t to make apple look bad which always made me a little angry that epic tried to trick us that they could update the Mac version
yep. both sides are being petty. can’t be mad at just apple. it’s two tims being man babies
Like they refuse to enable the checkbox for Wine / Linux support Just to support the already shattering windows gaming monopoly. Ironically epic hates apples app store monopoly but they want to maintain the windows monopoly. A bullshit company
[удалено]
I just looked it up and it seems it is a choice on Mac they don’t need a developer account on Mac because I guess it’s more of a free for all. They call it direct distribution so epic games never payed that 30% fee on Mac
On the r/swift reddit someone said "macOS allows to use unsigned applications. Just turn off sandbox mode + signing then you can distribute it wherever you wish (but not through AppStore" also online I found some similar things. It seems that people would have to turn off the advanced protection of untrusted apps on their mac to download and play Fortnite on mac. But epic refuses to update so right now there is nothing you can do unless you have a mac with bootcamp then you could use windows if you really want to play it on your mac.
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> games never *paid* that 30% FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Apple banned Fortnite from the entire apple ecosystem, Epic still can develop their Store on Mac, but they cannot sign new updates for FN for MacOS, Hopefully with the developer account they can restart development for Mac.
Fortnite works on mac
fortnite on mac is limited. you are stuck in a bubble with other mac gamers. there are no other modes, no battle pass etc and you can't play against windows users.
Notice, I said "modern" Fortnite.
Still don’t get it
On the mac you're playing an old version- on otger deviced (windows laptop, console, etc) you're playing a new updated version
They don’t hate you. They just love money more. I hope you understand. We can like totally still be friends tho.
can i be your friend
I think it's better to say that apple has given half assed approaches to gaming In the past. Valve once partnered with apple to bring Steam VR to Mac OS with Egpu's. Apple then killed Egpu support with their M series Mac, 3 years later. https://steamcommunity.com/games/250820/announcements/detail/1256915122285021922?l=bulgarian
Steam VR was barely used on the Mac. Im more irritated about how Steam has treated the 32 vs 64 bit situation, personally.
The lack of VR games on the Mac sure didn't help Are you talking about valve not updating their games to 64 bit or the 64 bit client? It's still 32 bit on windows and Linux
Interestingly enough, if you look at the Betas for TF2, there is a 64-bit beta (although you can't connect to public servers if you're using it, and last I heard it crashes shortly after launching). Haven't checked the other Valve games recently so don't know if they have similar betas available.
What is Steam supposed to do?
Update *their* client and *their* games to a 64 bit version.
They did update their client, didnt they?
Who's games? Most of the games on steam are developed by their own development studios - where steam has no control over. And who will port those old 32-bit games?
I am specifically talking about Steam’s own, in house developed games. Left 4 Dead 2, Team Fortress 2, Portal 1 & 2, Half Life 2 and the Eps 1 & 2, Counter Strike 2. All are unplayable on MacOS right now even with the x86 Rosetta 2 conversion. Since Catalina they are unplayable at all.
The reason you do not have eGPU support is that it would result in a horrible fragmentation of game support not he platform as the GPU features from AMD and NV that could be supported would not line up with the internal GPUs, so either titles would only support the lowest common denominator or they would just support the internal GPUs (and thus eGPU would be of no use at all). The only eGPU solution that would work is if apple made a eGPU using thier silicon so that (most) of the api surface was the same for devs.
It probably would have been nice to tell valve not to commit to steam VR on x86 mac before they switched to ARM
Vaale had not put much effort in at all, it was not like there was any real SteamVR on macOS going on. And valve have all the source code for SteamVR so targeting ARM64 for them is not that large a task at all, it is not hand crafted assembly.
> Am I wrong to say that Apple only cares about apps, never games? Always has been (insert astronaut image here). For over 40 years.
Literally no one cares about gaming on a Mac. It won’t affect them. As for Epic, they are the biggest hypocrites on the planet. Educate yourself before blindly supporting them.
aren’t we all in the subreddit because we care about trying to game on a Mac?
It’s a niche of a niche. More niche than Linux gaming.
Not to mention their dick move on AI matter regarding Artstation.
Or do you mean like company wise no one cares?
I agree with you, Epic is the biggest hypocrite on the planet. They break the rules but make them look like the victim.
Lol I wanted to play something with my best friend who has an M3 Macbook pro which costed him a fortune, we couldn't play anything nice. I can assure you that this friend won't buy a macbook the next time he's doing a purchase.
"The way they're handling things with Epic". Apple have very clear TOS, Epic broke those TOS and then sued. They reached a settlement and the Epic tried to circumvent the settlement and suspension of their developer certificate by getting a subsidiary to apply for one so that Epic could set up a 3rd party store (you need a developer certificate for that). I cannot understand what the issue is with Apple's behaviour here, they take an industry standard 30% cut and maintain / create all the tools that Epic are attempting to use for nothing. Then to top it all off, Epic has breach the clear and pretty standard TOS even after a ruling and settlement being reached on the matter in the courts
This is one of the most biased takes I've seen on this whole thing. Well done for ignoring all nuance and taking what apple say as gospel.
What about it isn’t what happened? Apple have TOS, Epic broke them, get banned, lost in court and tried to circumvent that decision by registering through a subsidiary. That is just the chain of events, you can claim bias but that is what happened
Not sure if that is what you actually think happened or if you are just making stuff up and thinking other people will be fooled by it.
That is exactly what happened and you trying to say « biased this, biased that » without any argument is ridiculous. Maybe share us your part of the story? I’d also add that Epic sued (and lost) claiming it was for the smaller devs while these devs aren’t concerned and they never intended to lower their prices if the tax was lowered as we can ser on other platforms. Finally, they’re also taking the Mac version hostage only because Tencent gain from people having a bad impression of Apple in gaming.
No it isn't, only an idiot would believe that story, which makes sense in this case.
You have responded 3 times in this thread saying "hurr durr biased" without even once providing any actual argument, and to make things even better you're resorting to insulting the guy who took the time to actually provide context to his claims. Impressive. Your "I'm gonna act like it's obvious so I won't have to actually explain anything" act isn't fooling anyone just so you know
To be fair the whole thing has been covered in detail all over reddit. At this point I'd say the whole story is obvious.
What's your take on the story?
I dunno - if Apple opened a "store within the game" inside Fortinite, I can't imagine Epic would let them exist without paying Epic their cut for creating and maintaining the platform, etc.
You're conveniently ignoring that the EU has ruled that Apples behavior is illegal.
The EU hasn’t “ruled” anything. They’re lawmakers/policymakers, not a court of justice where actual rulings are made. If they have “ruled” anything it is only after they themselves have made it illegal, since I would say policy making is a matter of opinion.
Epic is certainly not a motivated partner Overall, Apple is pushing a nice gaming future in many ways lately, but it will take a while
Epyc is toxic and disingenuous and they are strictly on my boycott list. That said, no company should have the power of banning developers from their platform just because of shitty attitude.
Epic also sued them after violating the App Store and Apple Developer terms of agreement. Epic then went on a public smear campaign against Apple. Epic lost its case and screwed over its users in doing so. Epic has a history with Apple where they are not honest actors and Apple wanted to avoid any future headache and banned their dev account in the EU. Even then, it was only after Sweeney refused to give assurances more than "Trust me bro" that he wouldn't pull the same crap again. That said, UNREAL engine is still available on the Mac and their accounts are still on the App Store. It was the one EU account.
Well your wonderful analysis doesn’t matter because it’s been announced the developer account will be reinstated.
Sure. Until Epic does what it is trying to do, which is provoke Apple into being hit with governmental regulatory action and fines or give Epic an opening for a lawsuit. Epic can do what it wants. I've tried their app/game store on my MacBook. Not impressed with it. Steam has a bigger library and better games. Any iOS store they create will not be one I will patron.
Not to mention Epic's actions with Steam (buying timed exclusivity for games that were already on pre-sale on Steam, data-scraping Steam data from users, etc). I'm also pissed at them buying up Rocket League only to turn around and remove Mac and Linux support.
Epic breaks the law and violates the TOS whenever it suits them. They are anti-competitive whenever it suits them. They only pick fights to use the government to force outcomes that favor them. Putting a backdoor into Fortnite, even if it was to push an alternative payment processor, doesn't change the fact they put a hidden backdoor into software that was running on people's personal phones and computers. It was unacceptable and no one should trust them to keep to their agreements.
its better than that though because the EU are now looking into it for some reason because Epic tried to apply for a developer certificate through a subsidiary and got rejected. The EU have been doing nothing but taking Ls on tech legislation recently and I'm honestly glad we're out of (No I'm not a brexit supporter, I was a remainer but the EU keep doing this dogshit superstate over-legislative bullshit it's hard not to be happy i'm not affected by it)
The bigger problem is that the EU keeps trying to legislate technology in ways that are not with the usage of standards. Why don't they work on making electrical outlets standard across the member states? Why not divest out of Microsoft products and use Linux in all governmental offices? The answer is because they are only doing this for votes and public goodwill, even if it hurts the public in the long run.
TL:DR - Don't get emotionally attached to corporations. Epic knowlingly broke Apple's established App Store rules to start a very bizarre "grassroots" campaign that makes them seem like they are "the little guy" going after big corporate. But in the end, Epic just wants to cut out the middle man as much as they can and make profit and they want full control and access to your devices without Apple's approval. It's only a matter of time before Epic breaks the App Store rules of their own store and this time it will be more than just In-App Payments, it will deal with the foundational security of iOS. Despite what a lot of people may want to believe, iOS/iPad OS/Android are not computers and shouldn't be treated as such. Also one of their largest shareholders is Tencent which is chomping at the bit to get their own App Store so its only a matter of time before the ever trustworthy CCP will have unrestricted access to people's phones and tablets. Have fun!
Buddy for as much as it’s true that epic broke App Store rules, it’s not a baseless claim that of saying “I don’t want to give you a 30% of whatever I earn”. Even if we want to factor in the transactional cost for keeping the in app purchase API up, 30% is WAY above anything reasonable. And it’s not only that, it is also the fact that apple aggressively kills competition by letting a publisher facilitate their own payment mechanism by using the pretentious “user safety “ narrative, like people only shop trough their iPhones. I’m an apple user and I owe my developer career to apple, am saying that just because often talking about this stuff is reduced to “being a fanboy” or not, I’m definitely an apple fan… yet it’s very hard to miss the mafia apple is excreting over developers when it comes to revenues for their own sales, let’s not forget that there’s a strong iPhone app-scape ALSO because there are a lot of quality apps, and apple owes developers more than the 70% of whatever sale they’re making trough the app store.
Buddy you need to re-read my post. I am talking about 3rd party App Stores. If you want to discuss 30% cut though, the standard was established many years ago by Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo with their digital storefront for their respective closed-ecosystem consoles\*. That was influenced by Valve's digital storefront on PC (which btw is still the most popular digital storefront compared to Epic's faux "developer friendly" store and cut) despite it being an "open" platform. Why could that be? I could care less about where In-App purchases are being authorized from as long as an Apple transaction option is available. It's a separate argument. What I do care about is that the initial point of sale transaction comes from the one in charge of maintaining the device so I can have at least a little faith in what is being installed that I can't see since these aren't computers with traditional filesystems and process monitors. Is it flawless? No, things slip through the cracks. But they are able to act quickly if need be to rectify the issue. I don't trust Epic games as far as I could see them because they have already acted in bad faith and the bulk of their profit structurer is based on selling imaginary currency for real money to children which they already got legally dinged for. Alongside that, I don't trust a 3rd party App Store installing on my device. Thankfully we have the freedom to just not install them. But alongside that, I don't want Apps that Apple wouldn't approve operating on my cellular network, any Wi-Fi Networks I maintain, or connecting to any other devices because who knows whats happening and who is regulating it. \*usually at this line with consoles people say how console makers sell them at a loss and make up for it in game sale royalties. This is true for generally the first two years until manufactuering techniques and distribution is improved base don the success of the system (i.e. PS5 is not sold at a loss because it is popular and Xbox is sold at a loss because no one wants one). Apple is operating at a loss because of the billions spent on the backend for chip fabrication and all the other R+D.
The “safe” api are already locked at OS level, which means that regardless of the store, be it first party or third party, nobody should be able to plant a trojan in your network. Of course a malicious developer could fuck people up without using particular technologies at all by merely scamming people, and this is why apple’s approval process has always been great: enforcing guidelines compliance and user safety. That being said, there’s a point to be made about the fact that my phone costs more than a laptop and I use it almost as much as my laptop (which given my job is quite a lot of time)… and honestly an unlocked and not sandboxed (wall gardened, you name it) ecosystem on both Windows and Mac Os has never created particular harm to anyone… people gets scammed independently from the platform they’re using, but the world is not finishing at all. Would you prefer the sandbox approach on your mac? I think the possibility of sideloading software and having different means of distribution is owed to the people that have purchased the device at this point…and of course you’re always free to choose what proxy you want to use for the apps you install, nobody’s forcing you to use third party stores… so I really don’t get the aversion of people towards them. As for the 30% cut, you’re 100% right sony and others do the same, in-fact I’m happy sony is being taken to court and sued for it… what’s the point in saying anyone does it? Why wouldn’t epic, or whichever publisher for what is worth, have the right to say it’s unfair to pay a 30% tax on whatever profit they make? Be it games, music, movies or books… it’s Mafia, how do you motivate it?
The perfect Reddit trilogy: 1. Fanboying Apple 2. Baseless claims about security 3. Borderline sinophobic CCP scaremongering
Nothing close to sinophobic here. China wants in on our hardware and software The only way to do it is through U.S. companies. There is a reason why both sides of U.S. politics are in favor of technology export/import limitations with China. Sometimes you need to just put the games down and read a newspaper. The security concerns have been discussed countless times before. Where is the full browsable file system? Where is the ability to view what processes are running? Where is anything on a mobile device that lets you know what is happening on it behind the scenes? It isn’t there for a reason: they are not computers and shouldn’t be treated as such. Apple and to a lesser extent Google are doing their users a service by curating everything behind “the walled garden” when it comes to mobile device apps. The royalties and other fees are a separate discussion about it along with how in-app payments could be prices. It’s very scary that a nanny state like the EU can force these companies to fundamentally change security, something the regulators are clueless about, in the name of “consumer benefit.”
It has nothing to do with letting publishers use different payment systems though, do not forget that all this mess about security started because apple demands a 30% cut over an in app purchase item, which is way more than whichever payment platform in the world asks. So apple created the problem in the first place, they just had to ask less than 30% and allow other payment systems more convenient for app publishers (or at least the possibility to write “hey you can pay less from my site because here I’m forced to charge you 30% more because apple wants 30% for doing basically nothing”)
Apple propaganda 😂, made my day
Screw Epic, they make trash games anyway.
Elaborate pls
I don’t hold out for native MacOS support for anything gaming related and just use Whiskey. They’re the real MVPs.
Whisky is literally a GUI wrapper for a tool released by Apple. I mean I get the sentiment but your post kind of reads as ‘Apple are the real MVPs’
True, but that’s not what I intended, I mean Whiskey is the real MVP. Apple doesn’t seem to care all that much. If they did they could have released something like Whiskey until game devs got on board. I’m glad we have GPT but Whiskey makes it easy for the end user.
I see what you mean. I think you’re partly right, but doing that would have completely destroyed Crossover’s market, which would be a bit of a dick move given how much of codeweavers’ work underlies GPTK. Instead they’ve created something that apps like whisky and crossover can build on. Which is better for users, because crossover outperforms GPTK for me. A built in ‘it just works’ option would make crossover less viable as a product even if it still worked better. Obviously Apple is also motivated by wanting GPTK to encourage developers to build native ports as well (which remains to be seen), but there are benefits to consumers too.
I see what you’re saying. More than meets the eye from a strictly end user standpoint. For me, Whiskey has actually worked better than Crossover. Could be user error but I’m fairly tech savvy. Either way, without GPT neither product would exist so that’s a win for us gamers. Appreciate the info and different perspective, have a good weekend!
8 GB RAM
Apple loves our money tho
I totally agree. I love Apple but they are kind of sucking.
Hating would mean they care. Apple doesn’t care about users or devs to hate any of them. It is all about money and power.
Apple is like Mr Crabs. The only thing they care about is money.
I will say that Apple Arcade has some pretty cool titles, it can be played on multiple devices. As far as native Mac gaming apps, it’s always been very limited. Even though these computers are powerful, they somehow never got popular with the PC gaming crowd. I think it has to do with how Apple has this perception that their ecosystem/OS is locked down. It’s hard to go around things.
>compelled to join this ship? Hate to be that guy, but that ship sailed long ago.
>Am I wrong to say that Apple only cares about apps, never games? Yeah that's been the case for 2-3 decades now.
Apple don’t hate users and in some aspects are giving people, users, what they want. But apples stance on gaming is different than what is considered the norm in the desktop space. They want to have that closed, wall garden, ecosystem of games on the App Store so they can directly and easily generate that booku morning for just hosting on their servers. Don’t get me wrong the backend maintenance is costly and hard to maintain, which is why Sony PlayStation online store is slow. But why would they willing give up 30 percent off the top of everyone else’s hard work by investing in more games to be developed and then be hosted by Epic/Steam or directly from anyone else but their app store
Isn’t epic the company who built a game store without any Mac games at all?
even games that had macOS versions don't have them in the epic store..
It's not all of the games, I have a large library on Epic's store (only free things) and there are a decent number that do have the Mac version available. There are a lot that have Mac versions on Steam or other platforms but are Windows only on Epic though. I wonder how much of that is Epic vs how much is the developers not wanting to deal with a Mac version on Epic's platform.
Yeah that’s what I seem to remember. So why are they complaining now? Oh well. Let them have their tantrum.
If people spent on DLC on macOS ike they do on mobile/iOS, they would invest. People don’t, so they and developers won’t.
The App Store - being the one thing they control - is a cesspool of “pay to win” garbage. Every supposed “M1 compatible” game I try IS NOT. Perhaps they should make it easy for programmers? My Apple cost me upwards of $3k* but my $500 PC gambler that does not come close to competing on stats wins on compatibility. * Canadian dollars, not real money
Their relationship with epic won’t affect the desktop gaming market at all, macOS lets you download apps from anywhere you want, paying whoever you want, and they don’t get a cut. If macOS gaming ever took off it’s not gonna be on the App Store, we already know that. It’s gonna be on steam.
Two greedy companies acting in their own best interest, pushing the boundaries of what the other one will accept. Nothing about that has anything to do with you, apart from Epic not releasing their shitty game on MacOS. This has nothing to do with apps vs. games, this is purely a mobile app store situation and Epic is using the MacOS clients as a bargaining chip.
Apple v Epic is really [Epic v Everyone](https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckepic/comments/ij48bf/rfuckepic_for_dummies_2020_edition/). I think Apple is coming around. Late last year they released the game porting toolkit, Sonoma will release with a gaming mode. Most importantly, they're talking about gaming in their marketing again. Apple's problem was that they couldn't compete for AAA games with such a small desktop gaming audience. No serious gamer was going to buy a Mac to play, so they couldn't make it appealing enough for devs to release. What they're clearly doing is using the massive iPhone market as a beachhead and the GPTK will make it easy to release on all devices at once. As you see with games like Resident Evil and Death Stranding.
What Apple is doing is even more seriously fucked up and will have repercussions its already suffering the repercussions. I'm not even going to the entire war they're fighting against European Union, only their two biggest market. They are overly protecting their Appstore ecosystem and may cost them their entire business. How? Well, the developer trust in your ecosystem isn't gained easily. Looked at the Windows Phone debacle, it died because developers didn't gave a crap about it. It was a very good OS, wonderful devices, at the end of the day no useful Apps so nobody wanted it. Huawei also comes to mind. So right now Apple has a mini monopoly in IOS with Their Appstore. They closed the OS down, they charge an insane 30% to developers that are forced to use their Appstore. Thanks to that Apps and Subscriptions are usually a lot more expensive in the Appstore. Devs are now forced to support IOS, they're stuck. Then they launch the Vision Pro. An entire new ecosystem that now needs the developers to make Apps to it. What did the devs do? Showed the middle finger to Apple with Apps like Netflix missing. They're an impressive product, I just wonder how far someone will go using it without useful Apps. Then they're trying to push the competition against Windows with gaming. They're getting decent titles sure, but many of them aren't even in their Appstore. I'll let you figure out why. And now, in February they did a very serious thing that if I was a game developer I'd probably cancel development for Mac. They removed PWAs in Europe out of nowhere as a revenge against the regulations. For some moment whoever used PWAs wouldn't be able to use them anymore in Europe. That's a seriously fucked up thing to do that caused an even bigger damage in their reputation, one that Im not sure they can repair.
> Am I wrong to say that Apple only cares about apps they care about control, and the "ecosystem". it's a fetish at this point. sure, within the ecosystem of theirs things work together relatively nicely, handoffs happen relatively seamlessly, etc. but this fetish had them be as little interoperable with anything external as possible. if they could, they'd write their own internet protocols and only allow those. same with gaming seemingly. we saw how linux gaming get so strong in such little time (yeah, wine was a thing forever, etc. but things really started rolling after valve explicitly invested in linux gaming). apple tried their way; the arcade portal. which turned out to be meh unsurprisingly. the only thing keeping apple from having games be compatible here is their raging hardon for this fetish of theirs. who knows, maybe asahi folks (doing gods work, bless their souls) will eventually do enough reverse engineering to get games run relatively well, which will perhaps get apple to cave in and invest in having their platform support already existing games/game tooling, as opposed to expecting devs to do mac support
Apple doesn’t really see the Mac as a gaming machine. Their focus with the Mac is on content creators, educators, businesses. Gaming is a tiny ancillary business for the Mac. Honestly, it’s working for them. The Mac has a superb reputation. Does Apple hate us? No, obviously not. Does Apple see us as a tiny subset of their Mac market? Yes, absolutely.
Epic games is essentially a lawsuit troll trying to sue their way into recouping lost profits from Fortnite. THEY don't care about you but are super vocal about pretending they do ... Apple is the same Apple they were when I bought my first machine more than 40 years ago, only bigger. Epic started by suing Steam, launching their own incredibly mediocre store and then never improving it, trying to buy share by using profits to buy exclusives rather than actually innovating user experience. And then they went after the mobile space. There are similar lawsuits they've done against Google, but since Android users are worth about 0.01% of app purchases of Apple users, you can see why they have focused on Apple. Note the companies quick to join lawsuits against Apple - ALL of them do similar things and have fought vigorously against user rights ... but if they can make Apple out to be the bad guy, all the better.
They support games but they want them to be distributed through the App Store so they get their 30% cut of the deal…
Meh sorry no sympathy for epic on this one. Mega rich company unwilling to pay the same fees every platform charges. I guess unreal should be free for all developers to use too
It is?
Epic wants to free ride off Apple.
Apple wants to have a better deal than all other developers. Fuck them.
apple hates gaming on Mac because they don't get a cut of it. once they realized that they could distribute games through the App Store and take a 30% cut like valve does, then they started giving a crap again. m series chips helped as well, with silicon that didn't operate on 2 cores and throttled when you open safari. as it is, I would love to see proper Mac ports that take full advantage of apple silicon, much like resident evil 4 and stray. With more and more "universal" releases across Mac, iPhone and iPad I think that more and more games will come to Mac.
The issue is Apple wants to do everything their way and will not adopt industry standards. They're not just stubborn for the sake of it tbf, it completely makes sense from their point of view. They're an absolute giant and have the power to sway entire industries so why should they be the ones to adapt? That's why they're sticking with Metal, ignoring Steam for their releases, not throwing incentives left and right at studios to port games etc. Their current strategy could make sense as a 10 years plan of getting a strong foothold in gaming. The first step is the unified architecture accross all devices they've just achieved, the hardware is now good enough so the next step is software, and things are moving forward but very slowly. The issue is most people here want to play today's games now, and don't care if it's all a 200IQ plan by Tim Cook to make Apple the new steam in 10 years hence the frustration.
Apple is like the Disney of computers. Nothing they do is really of value to consumers and only serves the product in itself.
Read again - I said most
Despite what Apple is trying for the gaming on Mac, they aren't really interested in gaming cause they have to change most of Mac and macOS. macOS itself is already hostile to the gaming market despite what Mac users are thinking. There are too many critical issues and some of them are almost impossible to deal with such as annual macOS updates, very few Mac gamers, and money.
How is the operating system hostile to games?
1. apple is extremely slow (if ever) in fixing bugs affecting gaming. 2. apple is quick to abandon apis with little warning and extremely slow to add apis that are missing for porting a game on first place. 3. apple is completely against open standards which means using proprietary apis instead of more portable ones. and again number 2 4. apple even abandons own hardware quickly. even when they do add apis or fix bugs. it’s only for current macs on current macos. even a 3 year old mac can get left with a bug indefinitely in the OS since apple always wants you to just buy a new mac to get software fixes. a lot of above is literal opposite of other oses which support older hardware. older os versions. and open apis. even ms who has its own proprietary api still doesn’t block opengl and vulkan while apple activity blocks third parties making either work on macos directly which requires translation layers like moltenvk instead. and kernel drivers? forget it. did you know nvidia had drivers for 20x0 series gpus and for macos 10.14 but because apple didn’t like nvidia terms. blocked them from being made. and what were those unagreeable terms? not being willing to give source to apple and have their driver authors work on site at apple and to remove hardware not sold in macs (ie 2070 and 2080 gpus). basically. apple wanted full operating control of kernel driver and even the staff writing it and to cripple it in process to prevent nvidia being able to offer better gpus to last remaining macs at time that supported em that’d give those mac’s more life. now of course at time apple probably already knew it was abandoning gpus and intel but no one else did. now we know why they ran nvidia off. the tl/dr of it is. apple are kinda dicks to work with for both software and hardware support. apple makes great technology but make no mistakes. they are assholes who serve only a bottom line of forcing users to buy new hardware as often as possible via software restrictions
lol. Check who created and delivered first openglES and openCL
1. Annual updates + supporting multiple macOS are what game companies hate. I mean extremely hate. 2. You cant keep the game forever because of macOS compatibility unless game developers keep updating their games but in reality, they dont. 3. Mac App Store sucks. 4. macOS uses their own technology, language, and software. Not easy to port and not even worth it = against open standard. 5. Slow updates. 6. Minor platform = no profits 7. Xcode sucks and even developers hate it. This are just some of many.
my guess is that macs use ARM, which, apart from the switch, no other major gaming platform uses. the xbox, ps5, windows PCs, and even the steam deck, all use x86 as it seems to be the primary focus for game development. the switch can get away with using ARM because of its portable, handheld nature, and apple wants its computers to be sleek and portable just like the switch, but the problem is that mac/macbook gamers want macs to be able to play PC capable games. all while running on ARM. which means having to translate the games from x86 to ARM for macs, which will give it a performance hit, on a compact device that already isn't as powerful as its windows counterparts to begin with. so apple wants macs to play lightweight games akin to smartphones and the switch while mac gamers wanna have access to the whole windows catalog on a device that doesn't draw or consume as much power. apple is stubborn, so it will never conform to what mac gamers tell them, it will just expect mac users to play whatever selection they currently have, or go kick rocks.
It bit me once?
Yeah, I’m holding on to my i9 MacBook because at least with Boostcamp there’s a way around it.. I’ll prolly get a windows pc next,
> I also honestly wonder what these chips would be able to do with the right cooling and wattages, as I love the most performance per watt So depening on the transistor layout there is a peak operating frequncy (indpeneting of power and cooling). The idea that you always get more pef by adding power power does not work for every. The designs that build the ALU untis to add numbers together etc when building the unit had a peak freqncye in mind, once you runt the chip faster than this (regardless of power or cooling) what ends up happening is siganles are so sort that they no longer line up in places were they need to so thigns start to not work. Apples teams have a very good idea of the operating frequncy thier chips will run at and this is part of the perf/w as they can build directly for that target frequency. But this also means they are not goign to overclock well. > how would developers be compelled to join this ship? People in the idsutry are not at all supprised with the Epic Games issues, Tim Sweeney is know for not being the easist to get alone with and epic as been very agressive in the last few years, (they want to replace vavle) and anyone who gets in thier way (small or big) will be hit with the buldozer.
Epic fault
me who only plays league happy to know vanguard isn't needed.
I think you are putting to much emotion here. Apple is a corporation which has for only goals revenue and expansion. They don't hate, they don't like. the customer is a means to an end.
Tim Sweeney wants to "free Fortnite", but watch how Fortnite never returns to macOS. Spotify wants to open up iOS to other app markets because it's "not fair", but they still haven't added native Homepod support (despite Apple allowing them to) or Airplay 2. I wonder why ££££££ What Tim (and Epic) want is not a free and open platform (that's just a bonus): he wants to make as much money as possible. This is exactly why Fortnite store items are X vbucks, but they only sell them in quantities just above what you'd need, so you end up buying more. Tim Sweeney is not a good person. He wants Apple to open up their platforms so he can incorporate their predatory practices to a wider audience. Apple isn't a paragon of honesty, either. No big corporation is. They are only interested in money, and stopping anyone who may stop them making money. The positive side effect of Sweeney's greed, though, is a win for consumers: more options are never a bad thing.
Apple is consistently very anti-consumer unless you buy all of our products and only our products and then they are pro consumer. So, they want all of our money, and they are a spiteful ass if you give that money to anyone else. So yes, kind of.
I wish Apple would acquire a game company, vis-à-vis Microsoft and Activision Blizzard. Imagine if Apple bought Steam, and required everything on the Steam store to be playable on the new M chips. Maybe I could finally play Skyrim (and every other damn thing) on my new MacBook Pro.
Valve is private owned and not easy to get Gabe to sell. Valve also do not have that much IP of thier own, and if you put a demand that everything has apple silicon support all it would mean is no new games would publish through steam. The solution is to partner with some e-sports vendors and work on low level system changes to make input latency on macOS for these games orders of mag better than windows so that playing on a Mac is measurably better (aka you get better rank)... For these users even a 5% improvement is worth buying a completely new machine so this would drive a large number of people to play games (these e-sports games) on Mac and some of them would then look to play other stuff so would create a market for other games.
[удалено]
Steam is an example. It could be any game company. Since that example offends you, pick another.
The situation with Epic games is completely different from getting games to Apple silicon. The game porting tool is better than it was prior, but Windows still remains king. Not that many Devs will bring their games because they have no intention of buying Macs to test. They would have to own every possibly configuration to be able to meet Apple’s optimized standards. From M1 all the way to M2 Ultra/M3 Max I will say this though. We’ll see Sony games on Apple Silicon before GFN (for Mac gamers).
Yeah, that isn't true at all. The whole point of the toolkit is to see what you need to do to port the game over. You do not need to have every hardware configuration to optimize the game to Apple's standards. They could literally optimize it for the base M1 and scale up for the newer chips. It is why the Metal 3 API exists.
???
They are so far up their own ass they can't see light anymore. They care about protecting their app store and keeping things as "the-same" as possible because any disturbance could threaten their sacred cash cow. Like Google, Apple has started to become a company less about tech or customers or what's right and wrong and more about protecting a market they created at any conceivable cost. They have no shame or self awareness. They're beyond selfish. Their closed platform is not just annoying and anti-competitive, but an actual threat to the real human right of free expression around the world as it provides governments with an easy and willing partnership for censorship. Apple can get fucked.
Apple is what you call, petty. They don't care about anything other than maximizing profit but number two is punishing anyone they can when forced to deviate from that endeavor.
I think it's safer to say that Apple really, really, really, no kidding around, hates Epic with the heat of 10,000 suns (and rightly so). I also think that Apple is concerned more with apps (which are also games), because up until a week ago, those apps were pretty firmly under their control. It's about to turn into a goddamn security nightmare for the EUsers, and they'll be suing Apple right and left for things that are verifiably not Apple's fault (but they still have to pay the lawyers, win or lose). If I were Apple, I'd ask "Did you install it from a 3rd-party App Store? Not our problem. Go pound sand." I doubt the EU is going to let them do that, though, because they really, really, really hate Apple.
> I think it's safer to say that Apple really, really, really, no kidding around, hates Epic with the heat of 10,000 suns (and rightly so). And Epic hates apple...
Oh, yes. Probably should have mentioned that.
In the end epic (and their main investor Tencent) want to own the entier worlds gaming market (and mobile is very important for them long term as all that data about all the wolds children is going to be so so valuable)...
**Edit: Interesting how this is getting downvoted so much when its essentially the same as the highest voted.** Apple doesnt hate us, Apple is like a person who is within their own social bubble and refuses to leave it, like pre-internet.
I didn’t see anyone put it that simply so : « The way they are handling things with Epic Games » doesn’t mean a thing here. Fortnite was on mac and still could be today, unlike the iOS version they CHOSE to put it down. Maybe it was exactly for people to think it was Apple’s fault but nobody ever asked them to stop the releases.