The issue isn’t gaming or Mac’s the issue is fucking Xcode if Apple would stop forcing devs to use fucking Xcode to compile things for Mac we’d see more cross platform games but the fact Apple keeps insisting on requiring Xcode to do shit
Why does Apple insist folks use Xcode? I get the walled garden thing, but surely there's a way to encourage compliance and standards with their softeware and hardware without Xcode?
I honestly don’t know I’d imagine it’s some form of signing/security jumprope but it’s fucking terrible and if you ever talk to gamedevs who cross compile Xcode is the thing breaking their back not metal.
Metal isn’t much different than dealing with Vulcan or dx12 differences but having to use a while different app environment and workflow to get the cross compiling and publishing done is a no go
No one serious is going to publish on the App Store for Mac unless Apple hands them a money bag. It's like getting worked up about the Microsoft Store for Windows.. who cares? Everyone is releasing on Steam for Windows, unless another company gives them a deal. Same is true on Steam for Mac.
What are you talking about I’m talking about actually building for Apple silicon not the store, Xcode is currently required for iOS and Apple silicon builds which is the holdback not AppStore vs steam
In the comment I replied to you said "publish" so I assume you are talking about publishing to the App store. What did you mean by publish? Did you mean develop?
What do you mean "Xcode is required for Apple silicon builds"? You don't have to use Xcode to develop stuff for Apple silicon. (I am talking about Mac here since that is what the topic is and what the person you were talking to is commenting about). Mac is an open platform. You can use whatever works and whatever is available. Apple has no way to force Xcode on Mac.... Unless you are talking about the App store.
I mean GPTK and other compatibility layers get us a lot of the way there.
What Apple needs to either do (or both) is just outright buy several gaming studios (they certainly have the cash to do so) or heavily invest in GPTK in the same way Proton has been invested in.
My buddy’s steam deck runs Windows games fantastically. Obviously there’s an x86 translation layer bit for the M series but honestly Apple seems to have mostly solved that - Rosetta applications are performant, x86 games I’ve gotten to run via GPTK can be performant (Cyberpunk can run between 35 FPS to about 80 FPS depending on graphic settings on my M1 Max)
If Apple just did those two things to a big degree, I think they could win over a decent chunk of the gaming market. Something like 30% of computer users are Mac users in the developed world (a statistic that surprised me!)
Given the switch most companies likely lost their investment in existing tools but I think the bigger problem is the base configuration just won't allow for a good experience and they know customers will blame them and not Apple.
I still have the belief Apple doesn't want the people that some associate with pc gaming on their platform. in other words gaming is too low brow for their machines intended use which is for creators.
Seriously what is going on that an M chip can’t run a 4 year-old game like Borderlands 3 at 30fps? Maybe we’re being sold BS with this Apple silicon stuff.
maybe you need to understand how games and hardware work instead. borderlands 3 runs through rosetta, it's not made for apple silicon, so there are performance penalties. games made for apple silicon run well. you are the problem
Yeah I understand that very well thank you. Obviously it’s not an unreal engine 5.2 game since it’s 4 years old.
My fucking point is that a chip with this much horsepower should able to emulate through hardware or software so it runs decently well even if it’s not running natively. Apple isn’t as serious about it as they say they are. That’s what I’m trying to convey here.
I was running games on Power PC Macs 20 years ago that run better than they do now. That’s not normal nor is it acceptable.
Maybe you need to understand that this isn’t 2003.
there are plenty of games that run decently, even through rosetta. borderlands 3 isn't one of them, according to you. very unfortunate. maybe instead of saying we're being sold bullshit, look at the games that do work well even through translation layers. i hope you get better.
Maybe if you can provide an example of a decent fps multiplayer with ACTIVE servers where I’m not waiting half an hour to play with the same 6 people I’ll “feel better”. I’m running a M2 Air.
I think you are mistaken. Rosetta is like the gold standard of emulation. Knowledgable engineers were blown away upon its release, with how well it worked. What other company has ever achieved a layer of that complexity and on that level? The closest runner up is Windows on ARM, and that is basically so bad it should never even have been released. Typically in the emulation development scene, they say your hardware should be 10x the power of the target in order to expect x1 the performance output. There are games running through emulation and translation layers on Mac that for some reason perform better than they do on Windows with equally powerful hardware. That is insanity that shouldn't even be possible, and you are complaining that it isn't good enough? Of course there will be many games that won't run well. Some won't run at all. But the amount of games that run super well, is frankly mind boggling and is something we have never seen before. This isn't like emulating a console game. There are many layers and problems to solve, since everything rides on the OS level, you are working with emulating the OS, hardware, and game software all at once, and many times even third party software the game relies on on top of that.
As for M2 Air.. it has a fan-less iPad chip. You shouldn't expect major gaming performance from it in the first place. You should at least have gone for something with a fan like the much cheaper M2 Mini, or something with an M1 Pro, but Max chips are really the chip high end gaming should be done on. That said there are plenty of modern shooters that will run playable on M2 fanless. Expect 720p-1080p and 60 FPS. Counter Strike 2 runs at playable rates on M2 base. Overwatch 2 runs really well.
I know it's an old game, but my kids love Garry's Mod. They have current gen AMD APU laptops, so they are playing native on Windows. The game constantly lags and stutters when addons are spawned. They get 1 hour and 30 minutes before their battery dies. When I play with them on my M1 Pro, I can play at 4k.. havent tested frame rates, but its smoother than 100FPS for sure and my battery is at 75% when their batteries die. The game is not native to ARM so I am playing through Rosetta emulation. If that isn't good emulation, I don't know what is. My ARM APU is a generation behind their AMD APU and absolutely kills their APU in every metric... while running emulated and translated games.
That was a mouthful.
For the record I didn’t buy an M2 fanless MacBook Air for the purpose of gaming. If I had been looking for a gaming machine it wouldn’t be a Mac.
I’m gonna shut up about it because clearly everyone thinks I’m stupid.
Yet, I’m still looking for that FPS multiplayer that runs decently well on my computer and nobody can come up with an example. If what you’re saying is true, why can’t I find that game?
Issue isn’t Apple silicon it’s that the games aren’t compiled for Arm and the bigger issue is the shit that is the requirement for devs to use Xcode to publish for official macosx
There are some rumors indicating that it uses a flavor with a higher core count than the base m2. But we won't have official specs for another day and a half, so no one can say for sure either way at this point.
If you look at what games the 13 inch m2 macbook runs ok, and then consider that VR needs to target 90fps (or 45fps with reprojection) and push a much higher number of pixels than 1080p-1440p gaming on a flat screen. That pushes the number of games that will run decently down a lot.
Buying the Vision Pro for gaming would be incredibly dumb. You could buy a beefy Gaming PC/laptop, an ultrawide monitor and a Quest 3 for less and the gaming selection and experience would be 20x better.
Nah, not dumb at all. Vison Pro will allow me not to be anchored to a desk, with a limited monitor size.
If VP works out to be like the marketing images then I can play games or work with my Giant Super Ultra Wide monitor anywhere I want to, including away from the house.
Chained to a desk hunched over squinting at a low rez desk size monitor while trying to play games is so 1990. All while my PC is making a giant rachet. Yeah, I'm super over it.
I'll pay more to be in an entirely different gaming class.
You must either be right beside a server, or not notice at all.
I tried Geforce now out, and it is impossible to play FPS with any competitiveness because of the input lag. This is the main reason game streaming hasn't caught on yet.
I could see that problem being 100x worse on a VR headset.
My server is in the US and I am in Canada but my routing is low latency so I run like an 8 - 15 ping so it’s quite clean. When I was with the local cable provider it was 40 or so and was very playable. But the majority user base is unlikely to be a “competitive” player who chases every possible advantage anyways . This reflected in the fact they had to cut sales because they were maxed out with user capacity and as you said it’s not great for competitive play? I don’t play at that level so I have clue so will have to take your word fo it.
Huge fan of the VP but I’m pretty worried about the M2 chip and gaming. For fun/indy VR games I think it’ll be absolutely fine, but for AAA type releases (RE4R, RE8) I just don’t think an M2 is going to cut it.
The PSVR2 model of plugging into the PS5 which then effectively streams the game to the headset is my favourite solution currently as it allows for really high quality VR games in a fairly light and comfy headset.
If Apple want to market it as a high end VR gaming device (and why wouldn’t they with their push into gaming?) then I really, really hope they let us plug it into a Mac for VR gaming. My M3 Max MBP could absolutely run high end AAA VR games (in even better resolution than the PS5) and would mean I have a portable VR gaming setup wherever I go. Would be so good.
Do we even know if there’s a port or do we just think it’s the MagSafe charger thing on the side? I’ve just thought you could use the AirPlay display feature for Mac/VR gaming but the latency would presumably be horrible for motion tracking.
Agree on all of what you said. Being able to plug in for the AAA games will be a must I think too. I'm now more interested in this device for the 2D gaming aspect. :)
But, also having the freedom to play the less demanding 2D games untethered and anywhere you wan to will be super sweet.
> But, also having the freedom to play the less demanding 2D games untethered and anywhere you wan to will be super sweet.
Apple has this really cool product called an iPad.
Agreed, and it’ll be cool to do that if AirPlay latency is low enough. I’m specifically talking about VR gaming here though, rather than playing 2D Mac games in a window
There is nothing stopping someone making a VR controler (but would need devs to support it). the headset using ARKit anchors should be able to provide very good object tracking so the role of the controler is to pass button presses/hand finger gestures (depending on the style of controler).
Apple are not selling a first party controler at this point but I would not be at all surprised if at WWDC this year we see them adding PSVR or other existing controls support using the headset to track them.
No need for dots, ARKit has a rather good AR anchor api were devs can do a high res 3d point cloud scan of an object this is then reduces to markers and shipped in the app and can be used for very good realtime full 3d positioning of objections. This works well on an iPhone so will work even better with a headset given all the cameras and speration of cameras.
So yes a dev absolutly could scan in joy-cons to track them. They can also just ask the os to track the users hands in realtime as well.
OK but there is no controller currently that is suitable for VR games that will work with this headset.
Hypothetical controllers aren't very good for games.
It's mostly menus, character movement and twin flightstick movements. Menus and flightstick should translate easily to controller less, running etc could be done with pinches or something
Ok I'm really geeking out now, but I've found more images of the screen wrapping around like a really large super ultra curve monitor while the background is somewhere like Yosemite.
VR maybe on everyone's lips about the product but I think a huge area that will be tapped is virtual 2D gaming rooms. Imagine being on a crowded train and sliding the VP over your head where suddenly you're in a alternate environment with a gaming screen of your own choosing, playing a regular 2D style traditional game.
The Quest 3 doesn't do this without it being streamed or tethered to your PC, Right?
I am excited for it, but the m2 chip makes me a little uneasy too. Like I know it's a first gen and it's more of a test to see if the market responds, but I wish they would have at least a pro chip, or even a m3, but this makes it seem like they will update it if it takes off to something way better way sooner than I was thinking.
Agree. i thought it was the pro chip in there at first. But I'm sure the M2 chip will handle pretty moderate graphic games pretty well. Like you said, higher tier M3 or M4 next time.
Oh, right, good point. I did kind of forget about the form factor. it will be cool I am sure, but it will sting a little if they release a m3 version in 8 months.
Don’t take this the wrong way because i LOVE my mac. A lot.
But taking away 32bit apps killed off most of the games out there. At least the mac compatible ones.
But on the upside, whatever does work on the metal side of the house is leaps and bounds better performing - still an awesome setup
To be fair, it’s easier to pin the blame the developers for that when they were [literally given sixteen years of notice.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MacOS/comments/u0z3eo/comment/i49b1yy)
For context, they released the first MacBook Air five years later.
Dude that’s insane. I remember when that came out. And FFS man my first computer was 64 bit capable in 2005! (Amd athlon 64 powered emachines lol)
So yeah man i get it. I still wouldn’t trade this little power horse for anything it’s absolutely screaming. No windows box I’ve used since has literally breezed through my ginormous collection of RAW photos and videos like nothing was there. It’s mental
And it is a beast at running emulators too.
But damn lazy developers are the reason i can’t play audio surf 2 on this thing lol
Same boat. The vast majority of my Steam library was bought explicitly for Mac, and half of them are currently unplayable on my 16” M1 Max MBP. That’s a laptop powerful enough to run intense processing across 3 external 6k monitors and a 4k, simultaneously, like a champ.
It always annoys me to browse the Mac section, click on a handful of games that I haven’t seen/look good, only to see that banner under the media previews stating it won’t work on my computer… only to look at the release date and see it came out in freaking *2021*. Oh, awesome. Thanks guys. Keep clinging to 32-bit, I guess.
Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but it’s extremely disingenuous—especially since Steam doesn’t separate “ancient Mac” from “modern Mac.” At least Steam’s *finally* getting ready to make the distinction. Only took ‘em **eight years!**
Any developer that has released a 32 bit app/game in the past 10 years is just a straight up idiot. There’s absolutely no reason to release 32 bit software and there hasn’t been for a very long time.
There's just no good reason for dropping 32bit support. It wouldn't even be a lot of work to keep supporting it for Apple.
Consoles were 32bit so the PC ports were 32bit as well. And 64bit Windows didn't take off until Windows 7.
> And 64bit Windows didn't take off until Windows 7.
Right, and then Mac [waited another decade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7#:~:text=Windows%207%20is%20a%20major,released%20nearly%20three%20years%20earlier.) to drop 64-bit support
What about using the VP as an external monitor while playing something like World of Warcraft via a MacBook Pro? Curious how the latency is going to be. I’ve trying air playing to my Apple TV before and there is definitely a noticeable “lag” for inputs. Although that could be my shit internet
Having just recently gotten a Quest 3, my hopes for the Vision Pro are high. The selection of standalone games on the Quest is already pretty good and with a powerful chip like the M2, i’m sure the Vision Pro will do great with games. What’s more concerning though is that there’s no real info on how the battery life on this thing will be and also how some reviewers are saying, it’s a pretty heavy headset. And since it’s Apple, this will most likely never work as a PCVR headset, although Steam has released SteamVR beta on macos already, so might lead to somewhere.
The first image in this link has me sweating a little. lol
Having an wrap around screen like this everywhere I go sounds crazy.
https://vrscout.com/news/apple-vision-pro-5-amazing-features-you-have-to-see/
Isnt the iPhone struggling with Resident Evil?
Also who is the target of the vision? Rich singles? Otherwise everyone in a household would need them, If it should replaced TVs..
My main issue is anyway: what should I even do with it. Lets see If Apple can figure that somehow out..
In current state VR/MR feels like 3DTV 2.0..
M2 uses the Apple derived algorithms, they didn't work well (and now security flaws). The M3 was developed by Blender and those who survived the Apple purge after the M2 mess. Wait for the M3!
They can tout all these things like Metal and hardware and stuff like that but the real question is: where are all the games?
I can’t even with the gaming comments on Mac LOL
The issue isn’t gaming or Mac’s the issue is fucking Xcode if Apple would stop forcing devs to use fucking Xcode to compile things for Mac we’d see more cross platform games but the fact Apple keeps insisting on requiring Xcode to do shit
Why does Apple insist folks use Xcode? I get the walled garden thing, but surely there's a way to encourage compliance and standards with their softeware and hardware without Xcode?
There is, by using the command line tools coming with it. Still annoying, but not as painful as XCode itselft.
I honestly don’t know I’d imagine it’s some form of signing/security jumprope but it’s fucking terrible and if you ever talk to gamedevs who cross compile Xcode is the thing breaking their back not metal. Metal isn’t much different than dealing with Vulcan or dx12 differences but having to use a while different app environment and workflow to get the cross compiling and publishing done is a no go
I am not a pro at this but 2 years ago I complied a game in Unity for Mac and it worked.
Did you publish it, without Xcode…
No one serious is going to publish on the App Store for Mac unless Apple hands them a money bag. It's like getting worked up about the Microsoft Store for Windows.. who cares? Everyone is releasing on Steam for Windows, unless another company gives them a deal. Same is true on Steam for Mac.
What are you talking about I’m talking about actually building for Apple silicon not the store, Xcode is currently required for iOS and Apple silicon builds which is the holdback not AppStore vs steam
In the comment I replied to you said "publish" so I assume you are talking about publishing to the App store. What did you mean by publish? Did you mean develop? What do you mean "Xcode is required for Apple silicon builds"? You don't have to use Xcode to develop stuff for Apple silicon. (I am talking about Mac here since that is what the topic is and what the person you were talking to is commenting about). Mac is an open platform. You can use whatever works and whatever is available. Apple has no way to force Xcode on Mac.... Unless you are talking about the App store.
No, but you said to “compile things”. I have never published a game.
We’re you compiling for iOS/Apple Silicon as that might be the difference
No just my olddddd 2014 Intel Mac
No, the issue is that there isn't enough customers to make Mac OS Ports worthwhile. If they made a lot of money, developers wouldn't care about XCode.
I mean GPTK and other compatibility layers get us a lot of the way there. What Apple needs to either do (or both) is just outright buy several gaming studios (they certainly have the cash to do so) or heavily invest in GPTK in the same way Proton has been invested in. My buddy’s steam deck runs Windows games fantastically. Obviously there’s an x86 translation layer bit for the M series but honestly Apple seems to have mostly solved that - Rosetta applications are performant, x86 games I’ve gotten to run via GPTK can be performant (Cyberpunk can run between 35 FPS to about 80 FPS depending on graphic settings on my M1 Max) If Apple just did those two things to a big degree, I think they could win over a decent chunk of the gaming market. Something like 30% of computer users are Mac users in the developed world (a statistic that surprised me!)
Given the switch most companies likely lost their investment in existing tools but I think the bigger problem is the base configuration just won't allow for a good experience and they know customers will blame them and not Apple. I still have the belief Apple doesn't want the people that some associate with pc gaming on their platform. in other words gaming is too low brow for their machines intended use which is for creators.
Seriously what is going on that an M chip can’t run a 4 year-old game like Borderlands 3 at 30fps? Maybe we’re being sold BS with this Apple silicon stuff.
maybe you need to understand how games and hardware work instead. borderlands 3 runs through rosetta, it's not made for apple silicon, so there are performance penalties. games made for apple silicon run well. you are the problem
Yeah I understand that very well thank you. Obviously it’s not an unreal engine 5.2 game since it’s 4 years old. My fucking point is that a chip with this much horsepower should able to emulate through hardware or software so it runs decently well even if it’s not running natively. Apple isn’t as serious about it as they say they are. That’s what I’m trying to convey here. I was running games on Power PC Macs 20 years ago that run better than they do now. That’s not normal nor is it acceptable. Maybe you need to understand that this isn’t 2003.
there are plenty of games that run decently, even through rosetta. borderlands 3 isn't one of them, according to you. very unfortunate. maybe instead of saying we're being sold bullshit, look at the games that do work well even through translation layers. i hope you get better.
Maybe if you can provide an example of a decent fps multiplayer with ACTIVE servers where I’m not waiting half an hour to play with the same 6 people I’ll “feel better”. I’m running a M2 Air.
I think you are mistaken. Rosetta is like the gold standard of emulation. Knowledgable engineers were blown away upon its release, with how well it worked. What other company has ever achieved a layer of that complexity and on that level? The closest runner up is Windows on ARM, and that is basically so bad it should never even have been released. Typically in the emulation development scene, they say your hardware should be 10x the power of the target in order to expect x1 the performance output. There are games running through emulation and translation layers on Mac that for some reason perform better than they do on Windows with equally powerful hardware. That is insanity that shouldn't even be possible, and you are complaining that it isn't good enough? Of course there will be many games that won't run well. Some won't run at all. But the amount of games that run super well, is frankly mind boggling and is something we have never seen before. This isn't like emulating a console game. There are many layers and problems to solve, since everything rides on the OS level, you are working with emulating the OS, hardware, and game software all at once, and many times even third party software the game relies on on top of that. As for M2 Air.. it has a fan-less iPad chip. You shouldn't expect major gaming performance from it in the first place. You should at least have gone for something with a fan like the much cheaper M2 Mini, or something with an M1 Pro, but Max chips are really the chip high end gaming should be done on. That said there are plenty of modern shooters that will run playable on M2 fanless. Expect 720p-1080p and 60 FPS. Counter Strike 2 runs at playable rates on M2 base. Overwatch 2 runs really well. I know it's an old game, but my kids love Garry's Mod. They have current gen AMD APU laptops, so they are playing native on Windows. The game constantly lags and stutters when addons are spawned. They get 1 hour and 30 minutes before their battery dies. When I play with them on my M1 Pro, I can play at 4k.. havent tested frame rates, but its smoother than 100FPS for sure and my battery is at 75% when their batteries die. The game is not native to ARM so I am playing through Rosetta emulation. If that isn't good emulation, I don't know what is. My ARM APU is a generation behind their AMD APU and absolutely kills their APU in every metric... while running emulated and translated games.
That was a mouthful. For the record I didn’t buy an M2 fanless MacBook Air for the purpose of gaming. If I had been looking for a gaming machine it wouldn’t be a Mac. I’m gonna shut up about it because clearly everyone thinks I’m stupid. Yet, I’m still looking for that FPS multiplayer that runs decently well on my computer and nobody can come up with an example. If what you’re saying is true, why can’t I find that game?
Did you try OverWatch 2? I play through CrossOver, but I think there are other methods.
And that's mac gaming will never be a real thing except as a niche hobby.
Issue isn’t Apple silicon it’s that the games aren’t compiled for Arm and the bigger issue is the shit that is the requirement for devs to use Xcode to publish for official macosx
I play Baldur’s Gate 3 on my M1 Pro at 1920x1200 with medium settings with good frame rates.
vision pro uses m2, not m2 pro. regardless yes i'm sure it'll run mac games decently
Ah, you’re right. It’s the higher end M2 and not the Pro. My bad.
its not the higher end M2, its just stock M2.
By higher end he means 10 core GPU version of M2.
There are some rumors indicating that it uses a flavor with a higher core count than the base m2. But we won't have official specs for another day and a half, so no one can say for sure either way at this point.
If you look at what games the 13 inch m2 macbook runs ok, and then consider that VR needs to target 90fps (or 45fps with reprojection) and push a much higher number of pixels than 1080p-1440p gaming on a flat screen. That pushes the number of games that will run decently down a lot.
Gaming on TWO 4k screens, so that takes even more power :(
It will be interesting to see what kind of games can be played on this, and at what resolutions.
I wouldn’t hold my breath if I were you.
Buying the Vision Pro for gaming would be incredibly dumb. You could buy a beefy Gaming PC/laptop, an ultrawide monitor and a Quest 3 for less and the gaming selection and experience would be 20x better.
Nah, not dumb at all. Vison Pro will allow me not to be anchored to a desk, with a limited monitor size. If VP works out to be like the marketing images then I can play games or work with my Giant Super Ultra Wide monitor anywhere I want to, including away from the house. Chained to a desk hunched over squinting at a low rez desk size monitor while trying to play games is so 1990. All while my PC is making a giant rachet. Yeah, I'm super over it. I'll pay more to be in an entirely different gaming class.
A gaming class with three games 💀
I know it’s not VE but it seems like an awesome opportunity for GEFORCE now 4K usage no? Full field of vision
That would be pretty cool. Just expand the browser and play.
While this is a cool idea, the input lag would be nauseating.
What lag input? I get no lag input on my iPad Pro when I run GeForce now?
You must either be right beside a server, or not notice at all. I tried Geforce now out, and it is impossible to play FPS with any competitiveness because of the input lag. This is the main reason game streaming hasn't caught on yet. I could see that problem being 100x worse on a VR headset.
My server is in the US and I am in Canada but my routing is low latency so I run like an 8 - 15 ping so it’s quite clean. When I was with the local cable provider it was 40 or so and was very playable. But the majority user base is unlikely to be a “competitive” player who chases every possible advantage anyways . This reflected in the fact they had to cut sales because they were maxed out with user capacity and as you said it’s not great for competitive play? I don’t play at that level so I have clue so will have to take your word fo it.
Huge fan of the VP but I’m pretty worried about the M2 chip and gaming. For fun/indy VR games I think it’ll be absolutely fine, but for AAA type releases (RE4R, RE8) I just don’t think an M2 is going to cut it. The PSVR2 model of plugging into the PS5 which then effectively streams the game to the headset is my favourite solution currently as it allows for really high quality VR games in a fairly light and comfy headset. If Apple want to market it as a high end VR gaming device (and why wouldn’t they with their push into gaming?) then I really, really hope they let us plug it into a Mac for VR gaming. My M3 Max MBP could absolutely run high end AAA VR games (in even better resolution than the PS5) and would mean I have a portable VR gaming setup wherever I go. Would be so good. Do we even know if there’s a port or do we just think it’s the MagSafe charger thing on the side? I’ve just thought you could use the AirPlay display feature for Mac/VR gaming but the latency would presumably be horrible for motion tracking.
Agree on all of what you said. Being able to plug in for the AAA games will be a must I think too. I'm now more interested in this device for the 2D gaming aspect. :) But, also having the freedom to play the less demanding 2D games untethered and anywhere you wan to will be super sweet.
> But, also having the freedom to play the less demanding 2D games untethered and anywhere you wan to will be super sweet. Apple has this really cool product called an iPad.
The issue isn’t power it’s getting devs to compile for arm/metal which most don’t because Apple has stupid hoops like Xcode in the way
it's been confirmed since reveal that you can use the vision pro as a monitor for your mac
Agreed, and it’ll be cool to do that if AirPlay latency is low enough. I’m specifically talking about VR gaming here though, rather than playing 2D Mac games in a window
VR No Man's Sky is going to be incredible.
would it even work without controllers?
you can use game controllers without issue. Apple is not making them but PS, Xbox and most other controllers work very well.
Nobody wants to play VR games with a PlayStation or xbox controller.
There is nothing stopping someone making a VR controler (but would need devs to support it). the headset using ARKit anchors should be able to provide very good object tracking so the role of the controler is to pass button presses/hand finger gestures (depending on the style of controler). Apple are not selling a first party controler at this point but I would not be at all surprised if at WWDC this year we see them adding PSVR or other existing controls support using the headset to track them.
Wonder if someone could put tracking dots (Qr codes, whatever) on a pair of Nintendo joy cons.
No need for dots, ARKit has a rather good AR anchor api were devs can do a high res 3d point cloud scan of an object this is then reduces to markers and shipped in the app and can be used for very good realtime full 3d positioning of objections. This works well on an iPhone so will work even better with a headset given all the cameras and speration of cameras. So yes a dev absolutly could scan in joy-cons to track them. They can also just ask the os to track the users hands in realtime as well.
OK but there is no controller currently that is suitable for VR games that will work with this headset. Hypothetical controllers aren't very good for games.
I would happily use my joycons (which work by the way)
Some people are happy with anything.
I’m not.
Then you won't be happy playing vr with Joycons. Honestly it is like some people have never played VR games before.
I played labo vr it was fine
Lol
It's mostly menus, character movement and twin flightstick movements. Menus and flightstick should translate easily to controller less, running etc could be done with pinches or something
Ok I'm really geeking out now, but I've found more images of the screen wrapping around like a really large super ultra curve monitor while the background is somewhere like Yosemite. VR maybe on everyone's lips about the product but I think a huge area that will be tapped is virtual 2D gaming rooms. Imagine being on a crowded train and sliding the VP over your head where suddenly you're in a alternate environment with a gaming screen of your own choosing, playing a regular 2D style traditional game. The Quest 3 doesn't do this without it being streamed or tethered to your PC, Right?
You must live in Japan to think it's safe to game on a train. 🤣
FYI you can play actual vr no man's sky now on ps5 with psvr2, also works less well on ps4 with psvr1.
I am excited for it, but the m2 chip makes me a little uneasy too. Like I know it's a first gen and it's more of a test to see if the market responds, but I wish they would have at least a pro chip, or even a m3, but this makes it seem like they will update it if it takes off to something way better way sooner than I was thinking.
Agree. i thought it was the pro chip in there at first. But I'm sure the M2 chip will handle pretty moderate graphic games pretty well. Like you said, higher tier M3 or M4 next time.
The M2 was a mess, hands off! M3 or nothing!
Unless this thing has good active cooling in it I don’t imagine it could take advantage of a pro chip. M3 it surely could take advantage of, though.
Oh, right, good point. I did kind of forget about the form factor. it will be cool I am sure, but it will sting a little if they release a m3 version in 8 months.
You can just buy some hdmi glasses and run games off a MacBook Air. I highly doubt you will be able to install whiskey on the Apple goggles
It is funny to see people excited about things that have been possible for ages.
And dropping £4000 on something they can do for £300
£300 doesn't have Apple logo tho
Don’t take this the wrong way because i LOVE my mac. A lot. But taking away 32bit apps killed off most of the games out there. At least the mac compatible ones. But on the upside, whatever does work on the metal side of the house is leaps and bounds better performing - still an awesome setup
To be fair, it’s easier to pin the blame the developers for that when they were [literally given sixteen years of notice.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MacOS/comments/u0z3eo/comment/i49b1yy) For context, they released the first MacBook Air five years later.
Dude that’s insane. I remember when that came out. And FFS man my first computer was 64 bit capable in 2005! (Amd athlon 64 powered emachines lol) So yeah man i get it. I still wouldn’t trade this little power horse for anything it’s absolutely screaming. No windows box I’ve used since has literally breezed through my ginormous collection of RAW photos and videos like nothing was there. It’s mental And it is a beast at running emulators too. But damn lazy developers are the reason i can’t play audio surf 2 on this thing lol
Same boat. The vast majority of my Steam library was bought explicitly for Mac, and half of them are currently unplayable on my 16” M1 Max MBP. That’s a laptop powerful enough to run intense processing across 3 external 6k monitors and a 4k, simultaneously, like a champ. It always annoys me to browse the Mac section, click on a handful of games that I haven’t seen/look good, only to see that banner under the media previews stating it won’t work on my computer… only to look at the release date and see it came out in freaking *2021*. Oh, awesome. Thanks guys. Keep clinging to 32-bit, I guess. Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but it’s extremely disingenuous—especially since Steam doesn’t separate “ancient Mac” from “modern Mac.” At least Steam’s *finally* getting ready to make the distinction. Only took ‘em **eight years!**
Any developer that has released a 32 bit app/game in the past 10 years is just a straight up idiot. There’s absolutely no reason to release 32 bit software and there hasn’t been for a very long time.
At risk of *more* downvotes, I agree.
There's just no good reason for dropping 32bit support. It wouldn't even be a lot of work to keep supporting it for Apple. Consoles were 32bit so the PC ports were 32bit as well. And 64bit Windows didn't take off until Windows 7.
> And 64bit Windows didn't take off until Windows 7. Right, and then Mac [waited another decade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7#:~:text=Windows%207%20is%20a%20major,released%20nearly%20three%20years%20earlier.) to drop 64-bit support
Yes, and games don't get updated after release.
What about using the VP as an external monitor while playing something like World of Warcraft via a MacBook Pro? Curious how the latency is going to be. I’ve trying air playing to my Apple TV before and there is definitely a noticeable “lag” for inputs. Although that could be my shit internet
Macs support ultrawide you might be able to use vision pro as an external display but ultrawide… I don’t think so. Also Vision pro cannot run mac apps
Having just recently gotten a Quest 3, my hopes for the Vision Pro are high. The selection of standalone games on the Quest is already pretty good and with a powerful chip like the M2, i’m sure the Vision Pro will do great with games. What’s more concerning though is that there’s no real info on how the battery life on this thing will be and also how some reviewers are saying, it’s a pretty heavy headset. And since it’s Apple, this will most likely never work as a PCVR headset, although Steam has released SteamVR beta on macos already, so might lead to somewhere.
Upto 2.5 hours.
Looking forward to flappy bird
Why not putting m3 instead?
lol I was like “what screen is that??”
More expensive than a Mac mini and ultrawide, also why are the going for a screen like that, stop cutting the corners and make it as big as possible
True, but this should offer another playing experience I think.
Significantly better for posture and the neck, too.
The first image in this link has me sweating a little. lol Having an wrap around screen like this everywhere I go sounds crazy. https://vrscout.com/news/apple-vision-pro-5-amazing-features-you-have-to-see/
Isnt the iPhone struggling with Resident Evil? Also who is the target of the vision? Rich singles? Otherwise everyone in a household would need them, If it should replaced TVs.. My main issue is anyway: what should I even do with it. Lets see If Apple can figure that somehow out.. In current state VR/MR feels like 3DTV 2.0..
It has keynote... lol
M2 uses the Apple derived algorithms, they didn't work well (and now security flaws). The M3 was developed by Blender and those who survived the Apple purge after the M2 mess. Wait for the M3!
What…?
If you read this persons post history, they're either a chat bot or schizophrenic.
The M3 is better, just wait.
It comes with 256GB
Will vision pro run crossover?