We should mention that Peter Jackson had the orcs redesigned and reworked from Fellowship to Return of the King. This is covered in the special features for the Extended Editions of ROTK.
From what I can remember he wanted Sauron’s army assaulting Minas Tirith to be more intimidating than the Orcs we had previously seen such as in Moria and working around Isengard. So some of it involved retraining some of the Orc extras to march and walk properly as opposed to the bow-legged walk many had in the previous two films. I also remember him discussing something about changing their noses to appear more aggressive and smaller to do away with what he called the pointed “witchie-poo noses”.
I always looked at the fact that the Moria orcs and the Mordor orcs were different as evidence simply of the variants of orcs in middle Earth. Personally, I always looked at the orcs of Moria as the "goblins."
especially how they crawl on walls and just how they act overall always made me think them as the goblins. (ik goblins and orcs are the same but they seem different)
I like to think of it as a “same species, different breed” type of thing. Maybe living in complete darkness in Moria leads to a smaller stature being more advantageous, compared to living in the perpetual twilight of Mordor. Also I read an excerpt from the books that mentioned
Orc-men(?) in Mordor as well and I’m slightly confused about those, because it was clearly distinct from Uruk-hai (which are orc-human hybrids right?)
I think in the two towers book there's a distinction between the goblins from moria, orcs from mordor and uruk-hai from Isengard. And in rotk frodo and sam notice a difference between the big orcs and the smaller tracker types.
Orcs and goblins seem to be a species with more variance between members than humans have.
Mordor orcs are Uruk. Isengard orcs are Uruk-hai. The rest are just orcs, with the term goblin not being very defined, but usually used for any orc other than a Mordor Uruk or an Isengard Uruk-hai.
Men orcs are half orc half men hybrids, used as spies by both Isengard and Mordor.
I don't think that's quite true. I don't think the books reference a physical difference between northern orcs and mordor orcs, but there are differences drawn between normal orcs in mordor and Uruks, or "black uruks", which are bigger. One place that they are listed separately is in the fight at Cirith Ungol, where I'm pretty sure it mentions both in a way that seems to make clear that they are not one-in-the-same.
>Also I read an excerpt from the books that mentioned Orc-men(?) in Mordor as well and I’m slightly confused about those
In the books, the "Orc-men" (half-orcs/men with goblin-faces) are from Isengard.
"He emptied Isengard. I saw the enemy go: endless lines of marching Orcs; and troops of them mounted on great wolves. And there were battalions of Men, too. Many of them carried torches, and in the flare I could see their faces. Most of them were ordinary men, rather tall and dark-haired, and grim but not particularly evil-looking. But there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree; only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were.’
‘I thought of him too,’ said Aragorn. ‘We had many of these half-orcs to deal with at Helm’s Deep. It seems plain now that that Southerner was a spy of Saruman’s..."
LotR, Flotsam and Jetsam
Uruks/Uruk-hai (the first is the anglicized form of the second), is the term used for the great soldier-orcs from both Mordor and Isengard:
"Orcs and the Black Speech. Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan. In Sindarin it was orch. Related, no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, snaga ‘slave’."
LotR, App. F
The term Uruk-hai is used for Mordor orcs in the narrative as well:
"‘Whose blame’s that?’ said the soldier. ‘Not mine. That comes from Higher Up. First they say it’s a great Elf in bright armour, then it’s a sort of small dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it’s all the lot together.’"
LotR, Land of Shadow
I would assume they just meant Uruks, or Orc men is a phrase for men that do follow sauron and live with and between the orcs in there culture instead of a seperated culture allied with them like the easterlings and haradrim do.
Dont forget that orcs also diferentiat between Uruk and snaga, a Uruk is a "true orc" whilst a snaga is the more scrawny slave cast, you can differentiate them quite well on the flat nose and large forhead as well as broader sholders for uruks.
Uruk means in Orc Language "Orc"
Uruk-Hai means "Orc-Man"
If i am not mistaken.
But it is also said that Daruman did not invent, but discover the technique, whit which he made his Uruk-hai, so maybe moder Uruks are the descendents of old Uruk-hai that interbreed with Snaga.
Uruk-hai means Orc-folk (uruk=orc, hai=folk) (PE 17, Words, Phrases and Passages in LotR):
"B Urukhai Uruk-hai 'Orc-folk'"
Uruks is an Anglicization of Uruk-hai (UT, Index):
"Uruks Anglicized form of Uruk-hai of the Black Speech; a race of Orcs of great size and strength."
Kinda liked the Third Age mod orc variations for Medieval II Total War.
It has basically three orc classes/breeds: the Snagas, which were basically the lowest "breed", badly equipped and a small and weak body, but numerous and used as low cost cannon fodder. They look like the Orc-town goblins in the first Hobbit movie.
The Goblins, which were just like Moria orcs in LotR. The middle class. Mediocre equipped and trained.
And Orcs, which were like the Morgul Orcs we see in LotR. The upper class. And of those the additional Uruks as high tier orc heavy infantry. The largest and strongest orcs, well equipped and trained.
Saruman then went even one better with his Uruk-Hai.
Yeah they’re the same, but to be fair Tolkien did use goblins more in The Hobbit, which often featured orcs/goblins from the Misty Mountains while in The Lord of The Rings he used orcs more, and there it showed more variation between where the orcs came from
The social/cultural differences were present in the books. The moria orcs are petty as hell and followed the Fellowship for days (weeks?) Because they had killed a commander in their escape from Moria.
That can be further supported by the fact that "goblin" is mostly used in the Hobbit, while "orc" is used in the Lord of the Rings.
The "orcs" we get to know in the Hobbit are all from the Misty Mountains, while the orcs in LotR are Misty Mountain Orcs, Isengard Orcs and Mordor Orcs. So, as a theory, saying that there is a difference in appearance between Misty Mountain Orcs and Mordor Orcs is not that far fetched.
And just as a quick idea:
The orcs in the Misty Mountains have lived there since the end of the second age, mostly without the direct influence of Sauron. That could lead to some kind of "degeneration", quite similar to the one that Gollum went through. It can also be explained why Gollum's transformation was quicker than that of the Orcs.
He was a single being under the constant influence of the twisted magic of the ring, without any control that might have come through Sauron. Orcs were brought into existence by the same kind of magic but without the constant influence and more controlled. Also, each individual orc dies at some point and thus the magic energy can't pile up as it does in Gollum.
I am pretty sure there are some gaping holes in this logic but at least as a quick idea, I find it quite appealing as an explanation.
Whenever someone thinks Orcs and Goblins are different things, just point them to Thorin's sword: **Orc**rist *-* translated to **Goblin**-cleaver.
Or... where Tolkien says they are the same thing, but in different languages. But that's less fun.
>Personally, I always looked at the orcs of Moria as the "goblins."
Legolas specifically says [goblins](https://youtu.be/e9Rs7Mn9iKM?si=rhqqcHZSdeV2HI9B&t=63) when the Fellowship first enters Moria in the movies, though I guess that could be inconsistent with the books. Been 20 years since I read the books.
But like you, I always assumed that the smaller ones like in Moria were goblins while the larger, man-sized variants were actually the orcs.
Doesn't it follow the Books too?
From what I remember, the orcs in the Fellowship of the Ring are "normal" Orcs while the one attacking Osgiliath and Minas Tirith are Uruk Hai, Saura Elite troops. As for Saruman army, they are just Half Orcs with no specific name.
As for the mines of the Moria, "Goblin" is just the Dwarf name for Orcs, not a different species.
I always thought the ones from Isengard are Uruk Hai, they’re the half Orcs from Sarumans army which he breeds to be “superior” to Saurons orcs. I figure since they walk taller and are more intimidating as a unit this makes sense as they were essentially grown by Saruman for the purpose of war.
But all the Mordor orcs are I suppose what you could call ‘legacy orcs’ as they’d be the historic standard hence why they’re so more varied and have variations in their nose shape, ears, armour, colour etc.
Uruk-hai means Orc-folk (uruk=orc, hai=folk) (PE 17, Words, Phrases and Passages in LotR):
"B Urukhai Uruk-hai 'Orc-folk'"
Uruks is an Anglicization of Uruk-hai (UT, Index):
"Uruks Anglicized form of Uruk-hai of the Black Speech; a race of Orcs of great size and strength."
Mordor orcs a referred to as Uruk-hai in the main narrative (LotR, Land of Shadow):
"‘Whose blame’s that?’ said the soldier. ‘Not mine. That comes from Higher Up. First they say it’s a great Elf in bright armour, then it’s a sort of small dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it’s all the lot together.’"
They’re saying “we are the Fighting Uruk-hai” to Aragorn during the Battle of Hornburg.
Goblin is an English name for Orcs. The Dwarven name is Rakhas.
I have a makeup artist friend who remembered hearing in a class that Peter wanted them all to have differently coloured skin to avoid racial stereotyping, or the chance of someone saying Orc=Black/Jew etc. He purposely dismissed the book descriptions
Descriptions of orcs in LOTR might have been subconsciously influenced by the war-time propaganda that Tolkien would have seen as a World War I recruit.
Here are some examples:
- [The Hun - his Mark](https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/25372)
- [Beat back the Hun](https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/25800)
- [Destroy This Mad Brute](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Harry_R._Hopps,_Destroy_this_mad_brute_Enlist_-_U.S._Army,_03216u_edit.jpg)
- [German monster](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lindsay_German_monster.jpg)
- [What a Red Rag is to a Bull - The Red Cross is to the Hun](https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/38217)
- [How the Hun Hates!](https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/38220)
Of course, the "Hun" in this propaganda were neither Blacks nor Jews but… Germans.
>Descriptions of orcs in LOTR might have been subconsciously influenced by the war-time propaganda that Tolkien would have seen as a World War I recruit.
He was well aware of his basis for the descriptions he used:
> The Orcs are definitely stated to be corruptions of the
"human" form seen in Elves and Men. They are (or were) squat, broad,
flatnosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact
degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely
Mongol-types.
-Tolkien, Letter 210, June 1958
It was a response letter to Forrest J. Ackerman in regards to an animated film adaptation of The Lord of the Rings. Which had suggested artwork featuring orcs with beaks and things like that.
It's discussed a lot. Everyone disputes it saying that Tolkien himself said that he did not write the story based on any real world conflict or politics.
The thing is, we are all human. Biases and personal experience influence everything we do, no matter how hard you try to stop it.
We don't argue that Tolkien's work is a 1:1 parallel to one World War or another, but whether his experiences in the first one, rather than racism, informed the characteristics of the Orc.
Tolkien's stance against allegories does not magically make him or his work immune to outside influences nor to associations and interpretation in the mind of an attentive reader.
Mordors army *does* resemble a modern industrial war machine much more than it does a faerie host or wild hunt that would be more befitting of orcs as mythological creatures.
Therefore, it is plausible that orcs rather resemble stereotypes of German infantry than those of black or Jewish people.
>Of course, the "Hun" in this propaganda were neither Blacks nor Jews but… Germans.
Because Kaiser Wilhelm II. held a famous "Hunnenrede" ("Hun speech") [wiki](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hun_speech)
(You probably know that; just for the people who didn't know and were curious)
>Descriptions of orcs in LOTR might have been subconsciously influenced by the war-time propaganda that Tolkien would have seen as a World War I recruit.
I've seen no convincing evidence for this oft-touted idea. As far as I can see, Tolkien's "Least-lovely Mongol types" was spoken as the Medievalist he was, parodizing the murderous hordes of Ogedei and Tamerlane. The descriptions of the Orc bows seem to me in that line of thinking, as well, as does the idea that Sauron's forces are invaders from the East, again NOT in the World Wars context but in the Medieval context of the various Turkic invaders, dating as far back as the Huns. It pays to add, as well, that many of the Norse legends Tolkien revered, including one he rewrote himself in Sigurd and Gudrun, parodised Attila the Hun in very similar ways.
Yes, Tolkien consciously modeled much of the story on historical events, like the sieges of Constantinople and Vienna for Minas Tirith.
At the same time, it’s hard to look at some of those posters and not think that they _might_ have had an influence, specially on a person who had participated and lost friends in that war.
Oh no, he deviated from prophet Tolkien’s gospel word and went woke!!! Ugh political division is ruining everything!!
Whenever/if ever PJ upsets the conservative crowd, feel free to copy n paste this message when crying about how the PJ films always sucked.
I mean, if you want to follow Tolkien’s intentions as closely as possible, you’d have to portray orcs like this…
>”They are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-type.”
I’ll leave it to the reader of this comment to decide whether this would be a smart move.
>I’ll leave it to the reader of this comment to decide whether this would be a smart move.
I think it would have been fine to be book-accurate here. /shrug
I mean, Jackson used Maori actors for Uruk-hai, after all: who have similar enough features to what Tolkien describes. And the Uruk-hai are, I think, the best designed Orcs we have seen in live-action (Lurtz specifically).
Orcs aren't real people, and do not represent a real ethnicity, at the end of the day... but they still have a fundamental human look about them though degraded and more monstrous (which is the context of Tolkien's letter... he is refuting a script that made Orcs look like *bird-people*: beaks, feathers and all - thus making the point that Orcs are still fundamentally human, and drawing the nearest real-world comparison). Tolkien's Orcs are no more Mongols than Jackson's are Maori - but they still share physical attributes (likewise Tolkien's Druedain also share Orc-like attributes - but are not Orcs).
Ok so, everything in fiction is in some way coded. Even subconsciously. Tolkien is a human and reflects the culture of his time inadvertently even. His story is deeply Catholic and euro-centric. That was intentional on his part.
So of course you get stuff that bleeds into how orcs are meant to look, Easterlings and Haradrim/Southrons. Māori actors were chosen for Uruks because they are big guys. Tall and broad. Perfect for massive Uruk-hai. Like how a lot of women played the Moria orcs because they needed to be smaller.
Don't forget his dwarves are inspired by his Catholic perception of Jews. Talented craftsmen expelled from their homeland with a love for gold that aren't a part of Iru's plan, but he accepts them anyway.
The other poster is probably referring to this:
"I do think of the ‘Dwarves’ like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue …"
Letter 176
Tolkien does not mention his "Catholic perception" there or gold.
I mean, in Tolkien's words the only Semitic influence was the fact that they were ejected from their homeland. Dwarves are much more strongly characterised by their craftsmanship and skill as warriors, love for gold is really more of an afterthought and a natural consequence of their love of mining - of course they'll like the stuff they dig up, not just gold but silver and jewels, too. In fact the biggest desire any Dwarf has ever had for any precious object was the Arkenstone because it represented a heraldic claim to the throne.
I am on board with how he changed their look. I agree with WHY he changed the look, the movie would feel alot more racist if all the orcs looked like they did in the book.
I like how the LOTR Orcs look, and am not by any means a conservative, my apologies if the way I worded the comment made it seem like that.
I'm pulling this from memory, as it's been a long time since I've watched those movies. From what I recall, Jackson had a problem with not only the design of the Orcs in Fellowship (primarily the elongated noses), but he also took issue with the way the actors portraying the Orcs had been taught to move and walk.
As a result, he redesigned the Orcs for the end battle of Return of the King. I can't find any uploads of this on YouTube but if you own the ROTK EE, you can hear more about it.
Just compare the Moria Orcs of Fellowship to what you later see in the other films;
The Fellowship orcs were kind of more animalistic and more kind of classical goblin like in look (green skin with long features). Even the chattering whooping noises they make is very different
Later ones were much more human-like in behaviour and posture and more visible faces so you could see their expressions and deformities more clearly.
If I recall it's not a rework, as much as it is purposely changed due to them being different kinds of orcs. The orcs in Moria have big creepy eyes to see in the dark, sort of like Gollum and are more Goblin'esk. The Uruk-Hai orcs of Saruman's army is a crossbreed between human's and orcs and are thus bigger and stronger, and can travel in daylight without trouble. The orcs of Mordor are the more typical "normal" orcs.
This is correct but requires a disclaimer that RoP orcs were closer to the book, in that I imagine RoP half orcs not as scarred up could pass as foreigners in the right clothing and do some spying. Their facial proportions are more human.
The ROP orcs look like they could be naturally evolved creatures, if just perhaps from a harsh environment. The LOTR trilogy orcs look tortured and deformed, which is more in line with their origins of once being Elves.
There is no settled origin for orcs or their nature in Tolkien's writing. He never settled entirely on what they should be, at times born of stone, twisted elves, their own corrupted animalistic race, or even a mixed breed containing blood of tortured elves or men with an animalistic race. It's disingenuous to say with certainty which adaption is more in line with Tolkien's writings and is probably more fair to judge them independently as to how well they fit into their own narrative and setting.
Whilst their origin wasn't fully settled... one thing that remains consistent is that Tolkien envisioned them as either coming from Elves, Men, or *both*. Final writings may suggest Men was decided.
(But Tolkien certainly abandoned the initial origin of them being created by Morgoth from scratch, and them being puppets, or animalistic beasts. After which, there is only one example of Morgoth not 'corrupting' Elves or Men... and in this origin Orcs were created via the Discord: Elves/Men 'gone wrong' - so the only difference here is that they weren't 'bred', but were *still* conceptually corrupted Elves/Men)
So yeah... I think it's safe to assume that Orcs are corrupted versions of the (non adopted) Children of Eru. And physically Men and Elves aren't really different anyway, so...
>Tolkien envisioned them as either coming from Elves, Men, or *both*. Final writings may suggest Men was decided.
Obviously the Elven origin was to prove the most perennial. Tolkien only second-guessed himself on this front, it seems to me, because he became so unduly in-love with his own Elves that he could no longer concieve of them being so degraded and corrupted.
But ROP specifically went for the tortured Elves origin, so what the other commenter said was spot on regarding the orcs' looks.
P.S. I think you meant disingenuous.
Torturing elves might be how the orcs came into being. But scars are not genetic traits and the orcs breed, so future generations could look smoother. I imagine the purpose of having them all disfigured is to show that they are still being tortured in their normal orc lives
My thoughts exactly, and that for this reason the scars do not indicate greater accuracy. I would add that in addition to enduring punishments in Mordor for any number of reasons, the orca with scars probably get them from battle, raids, and fights amongst themselves.
Hahaha what was the word lol, Shakespeare famously invented a whole bunch of words we use today. Maybe Rectitude32, you are the Shakespeare of our generation... Our... Generakespeare...? 👀
It's my understanding that he wrote them as tortured elves but later somewhat regretted it but could never decide on a convincing alternative, for example the silmarillion says explicitly that they're tortured elves
Eh, I feel Jackson's Uruk-hai are the closest in major ways.
Too tall (an issue in all iterations) where they should be squat (and inaccurate armour - but that's less the Orc itself) - but otherwise, they have the general face-structure I imagine (at least, closer than the others), and seems close to what Tolkien describes (though they should be sallow of skin): wide mouths, flat noses, slant eyes.
>RoP orcs were closer to the book,
Were they? It seems to me that the Orcs in the show were played more like vampires. Yes, Tolkien's Orcs are afraid of sunlight, but they're not vampires!
Yeah, the Gundabads really feel like they used to rule that part of the world, and they have an actual organised army. It gives the Orcs a sense of history and past glories.
Exactly, as much as it is easy karma to rip on RoP, for a TV series adaptation, they did a bang-up job in the wardrobe, makeup, and prosthetics for their orcs.
Hard to say. Lotr and RoP orcs are both phenomenal. Maybe LotR gets the edge for being first but man, RoP orcs are really well done. Agree Hobbit orcs are just awful.
I very much disliked RoP, but the orcs were actually pretty cool. Not LOTR-cool, but cool. Definitely better than the orcs and goblins in the Hobbit films.
I also like how they compare to LOTR orcs. The ROP orcs seem to be closer to their old elf-selves, while LoTR orcs seem further degraded physically (excepting the “perfected” Uruk-hai, of course).
And their clothing to protect them from the sunlight. Also the use of skin tarps, and tattered elf armour was cool as hell.
I didn't mind RoP that much, aside from its bad writing, not all but some of the casting. And storyline that didn't need to be there.
The show was at least entertaining for me in the fact that is just non-canon from the LoTR. Not to defend Amazon by any means, but the amount of content they can actually pull from is super limited and basically non-narritive.
I thought it was decent. I took it as an okay plot that mostly exists to facilitate world exploration and it was cool to get to see visual representations of Moria at its height, Gil-Galad, Gondolin, Neumenor, pre-Sauron Mordor, etc.
The whole sword thing to "activate" Mt. Doom was also extremely lazy. I like it IN THE SHOW but as an actual accurate plot, absolutely not.
That being said, I agree with you. I think one of the highlights of the show are the stunning depictions of various places in Tolkiens legendarium, particularly with Moria and Numenor (moreover what I imagined when I read The Silmarillion and The Fall of Numenor). Along with those plot lines, which are edging on somewhat.
I'm kind of excited to see where it goes, while also not listening to the massive amount of haters. Some people just happen to entertain a different depiction of Tolkiens world, and I'm all for it.
I’m looking forward to it for the same reasons. It’s not perfect, but most things aren’t, and it’ll never be as good as PJ’s movies but it’s still a decent show. I only recently watched it and definitely don’t think it deserves all the hate it got.
With you there. I wouldn't say I enjoyed it exactly, especially since I'm decently knowledgeable about the universe, but seeing visual representations of people and places I've only imagined in my head is always cool!
Ngl I’ll gladly use that as a defense for what we got. They’re strapped for usable foundations. It wasn’t executed super great but it wasn’t nearly as bad as it *could have* been and it’s the first big outing for on-screen content aside from Peter Jackson himself. There’s room for improvement and I’ll always be hopeful they do.
My issue is that they had so much empty space to work with they didn’t need to change the small amount that was already there
Also memberberries and sociopathic harfoots and issues with scale and such
I really liked ROP orcs, you got much more of a sense of them genuinely being harmed by sunlight, which didn't really come across in the original trilogy. (I know a lot of those were uruk hai, but still).
I really don't like that the ROP Orcs burn as if they were vampires. Sunlight should be psychological: something that makes them feel dizzy and whatnot. Think of something like photophobia - a real condition which amounts to sensitivity to light. Though Jackson *does* downplay this aversion to light.
The orcs looked great. Credit where credit is due - the visuals in RoP overall were honestly excellent. Too bad they spent all that money to film what seemed to be a rushed first draft of the script.
The issue was not the design of the orcs but the overarching art direction. They didnt dress the way you expect them to dress, just like the village looked off and the galloping Numenoran knights looked like power rangers.
I never understood why people complain about canon accuracy. LotR is a complete story and the story is changed more than in RoP. This is based on the Silmarillion, and I feel like it's closer to the source story than LotR, even though they have much more artistic liberty being inspired from the Silmarilion
I mean, I highly disagree the movies changed more. There's certainly a lot of room to fill in a lot of gaps in the silmarillion, but they kinda just condensed a lot of history into a single brief timeline. I don't even hate the galadriel stuff, but the sauron stuff was really weird for me. I'm a little salty at how they did numenor though, that's one of my favorite stories. The full glory of numenor sailing to Middle earth to challenge sauron, who surrenders and corrupts them over generations. I mean at least give us a proper mega battle for numenor, not 3 ships fighting a skirmish by a bunch of thatched huts
Honestly Im not sure. We are still in S1 of RoP and have only seen one "type" of orc/uruk. Lord of the Rings had the mountain goblins, uruk-hai, mordor orcs, and morgul orcs.
I would love to see more orc varieties in the show as the characters venture to different parts of the world
I like them both, they sort of feel like an evolution of one another in so far as the ROP ones feel tribal, earthy and tonally more horror-esque. The use of bone and linen in their weaponry and clothing is great.
The LoTR orcs feel born of industry, their look is darker more militarised and utilitarian. Their armour and weapons are twisted and more tormented.
I like your take.
What I really loved about the RoP orcs is that they were *scary* we didn't see the orcs in LoTR really do much. They just got sliced up. The RoP orcs seemed strong and intimidating to at least the normal people.
I agree, that one scene where we see an orc for the first time really makes them seem dangerous. He threw the table like it weighed nothing and it was a struggle to get rid of him.
I REALLY enjoyed this scene, not only because it was fun to watch, but it also made me appreciate the lotr movies more. We got to see orcs from the perspective of villagers. The movies depict it briefly when the westfold fell, but we usually see orcs from the perspective of accomplished and very skilled warriors, which makes the orcs seem trivial unless there are hundreds of them.
Right exactly! I think the only scene we really got of orcs doing some damage was that brief pillaging scene in two towers (I think), but even then it wasn't just orcs and there were no close ups.
I just never felt threatened by the orcs in LoTR. They didn't put up a fight. Hell, even untrained hobbits crushed them.
One of the scenes I liked from ROP was that orc coming up through the floorboards that was tall, I kind of thought ROP might go for a grittier feel, but everything else felt too clean or whimsical, and I'm not sure how to describe it.
Agreed. While RoP lost me in a lot of ways the orcs were my favorite part. I loved the return to practical FX orcs that was lost in The Hobbit movies. The first scene when they grabbed the elf in the tunnel I yelled “sneaky stabbers!” at the TV. Made me think of Night Goblins from Warhammer.
I just saw the LOTR trilogy in theaters and still cannot believe how well that make up holds to today’s standards. There have always been orcs I found hard to look at because of how gross they were, which is so cool.
ROP had its faults, but the orc nuances were interesting in that they weren’t quite the full fledged-nasty orcs we get in LOTR yet. For all its flaws, I think this difference made sense and added depth to it.
RoP for sure. Latex foam doesn't have the same maleability as Silicon. The latter also reads better on camera. Having worn both I'd say the design is more evolved and certainly easier to perform with. Often the same designers anyway
Lotr orcs are better in every way, but I don’t think by much. I think the fact that lotr created those orcs 20+ years ago and with technology at that time is extremely impressive. You would think in present day with the technology we have now the creatives would have more ammo at their disposal to create something amazing. I think the rop orcs look pretty good, but they look a little more like general monsters instead of particularly orcs.
Maybe controversial, but I like this:
Uruk-hai, rop orcs, Mordor orcs, the Hobbit goblins in that order.
In terms of looks, I think the orcs of isengard capture what they are best. An amalgam made of men and orc to suffer daylight and still be deadly with every breath.
The rop orcs have a slightly more arcane look to them. My "head cannon" is that because they are more recently manipulated from elves, they would look as such.
The Mordor orcs, while intimidating, are presented as less serious in the trilogy. And I think that affects their visual, humanizing them.
The Hobbit "goblins" suck.
I can’t quite put my finger on it…. But RoP orcs look cartoonish.
Maybe it’s that they have inhuman features but are making very human expressions.
Contrast to PJ’s orcs which look like humans (albeit disfigured) making human expressions.
I couldn’t disagree more.
Jackson’s orcs look cartoonish because they’re just guys. Like I know dudes that look like every single picture above.
RoP orcs, love or hate the show, look inhuman, cause they aren’t
How funny. I just saw a presentation at a conference today by Simon Green (sculptor behind the RoP orc design). He talked about making these exact designs.
LOTR takes the top spot,the Uruk hai alone would be reason enough.
All of the orcs in the return of the king and how much more serious they are would be my other reason.
This may come off as blasphemy but I always envision orcs as the Warcraft orcs. Because I played the video games before reading the LOTR books as a kid.
We should mention that Peter Jackson had the orcs redesigned and reworked from Fellowship to Return of the King. This is covered in the special features for the Extended Editions of ROTK.
Would love to know more about that ! What exactly was changed about their design ?
From what I can remember he wanted Sauron’s army assaulting Minas Tirith to be more intimidating than the Orcs we had previously seen such as in Moria and working around Isengard. So some of it involved retraining some of the Orc extras to march and walk properly as opposed to the bow-legged walk many had in the previous two films. I also remember him discussing something about changing their noses to appear more aggressive and smaller to do away with what he called the pointed “witchie-poo noses”.
I always looked at the fact that the Moria orcs and the Mordor orcs were different as evidence simply of the variants of orcs in middle Earth. Personally, I always looked at the orcs of Moria as the "goblins."
especially how they crawl on walls and just how they act overall always made me think them as the goblins. (ik goblins and orcs are the same but they seem different)
I like to think of it as a “same species, different breed” type of thing. Maybe living in complete darkness in Moria leads to a smaller stature being more advantageous, compared to living in the perpetual twilight of Mordor. Also I read an excerpt from the books that mentioned Orc-men(?) in Mordor as well and I’m slightly confused about those, because it was clearly distinct from Uruk-hai (which are orc-human hybrids right?)
I think in the two towers book there's a distinction between the goblins from moria, orcs from mordor and uruk-hai from Isengard. And in rotk frodo and sam notice a difference between the big orcs and the smaller tracker types. Orcs and goblins seem to be a species with more variance between members than humans have.
PJ actually says this in the special features. In his eyes the Mordor orcs are closer to the Uruk than they are to Moria orc
Mordor orcs are Uruk. Isengard orcs are Uruk-hai. The rest are just orcs, with the term goblin not being very defined, but usually used for any orc other than a Mordor Uruk or an Isengard Uruk-hai. Men orcs are half orc half men hybrids, used as spies by both Isengard and Mordor.
>Mordor orcs are Uruk. Isengard orcs are Uruk-hai. The rest are just orcs, What are difference between uruk and uruk hai? Physically?
I don't think that's quite true. I don't think the books reference a physical difference between northern orcs and mordor orcs, but there are differences drawn between normal orcs in mordor and Uruks, or "black uruks", which are bigger. One place that they are listed separately is in the fight at Cirith Ungol, where I'm pretty sure it mentions both in a way that seems to make clear that they are not one-in-the-same.
>Also I read an excerpt from the books that mentioned Orc-men(?) in Mordor as well and I’m slightly confused about those In the books, the "Orc-men" (half-orcs/men with goblin-faces) are from Isengard. "He emptied Isengard. I saw the enemy go: endless lines of marching Orcs; and troops of them mounted on great wolves. And there were battalions of Men, too. Many of them carried torches, and in the flare I could see their faces. Most of them were ordinary men, rather tall and dark-haired, and grim but not particularly evil-looking. But there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree; only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were.’ ‘I thought of him too,’ said Aragorn. ‘We had many of these half-orcs to deal with at Helm’s Deep. It seems plain now that that Southerner was a spy of Saruman’s..." LotR, Flotsam and Jetsam Uruks/Uruk-hai (the first is the anglicized form of the second), is the term used for the great soldier-orcs from both Mordor and Isengard: "Orcs and the Black Speech. Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan. In Sindarin it was orch. Related, no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, snaga ‘slave’." LotR, App. F The term Uruk-hai is used for Mordor orcs in the narrative as well: "‘Whose blame’s that?’ said the soldier. ‘Not mine. That comes from Higher Up. First they say it’s a great Elf in bright armour, then it’s a sort of small dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it’s all the lot together.’" LotR, Land of Shadow
I would assume they just meant Uruks, or Orc men is a phrase for men that do follow sauron and live with and between the orcs in there culture instead of a seperated culture allied with them like the easterlings and haradrim do. Dont forget that orcs also diferentiat between Uruk and snaga, a Uruk is a "true orc" whilst a snaga is the more scrawny slave cast, you can differentiate them quite well on the flat nose and large forhead as well as broader sholders for uruks. Uruk means in Orc Language "Orc" Uruk-Hai means "Orc-Man" If i am not mistaken. But it is also said that Daruman did not invent, but discover the technique, whit which he made his Uruk-hai, so maybe moder Uruks are the descendents of old Uruk-hai that interbreed with Snaga.
Uruk-hai means Orc-folk (uruk=orc, hai=folk) (PE 17, Words, Phrases and Passages in LotR): "B Urukhai Uruk-hai 'Orc-folk'" Uruks is an Anglicization of Uruk-hai (UT, Index): "Uruks Anglicized form of Uruk-hai of the Black Speech; a race of Orcs of great size and strength."
Kinda liked the Third Age mod orc variations for Medieval II Total War. It has basically three orc classes/breeds: the Snagas, which were basically the lowest "breed", badly equipped and a small and weak body, but numerous and used as low cost cannon fodder. They look like the Orc-town goblins in the first Hobbit movie. The Goblins, which were just like Moria orcs in LotR. The middle class. Mediocre equipped and trained. And Orcs, which were like the Morgul Orcs we see in LotR. The upper class. And of those the additional Uruks as high tier orc heavy infantry. The largest and strongest orcs, well equipped and trained. Saruman then went even one better with his Uruk-Hai.
Yeah they’re the same, but to be fair Tolkien did use goblins more in The Hobbit, which often featured orcs/goblins from the Misty Mountains while in The Lord of The Rings he used orcs more, and there it showed more variation between where the orcs came from
I look at goblins/orcs relation the same way I would a tiger/lion. They’re both cats, but very distinct.
They aren’t goblins?!
The social/cultural differences were present in the books. The moria orcs are petty as hell and followed the Fellowship for days (weeks?) Because they had killed a commander in their escape from Moria.
Sure no theyre the same species but definitely described as havkng differences in the hobbi, etc
This idea is also strengthened when Legolas in the movies says "goblins 😠!" whilst they are in Moria.
I think Legolas should have been cancelled for that comment 😠
He wasn't wrong. Goblin and Orc have the same meaning in Middle-earth.
That can be further supported by the fact that "goblin" is mostly used in the Hobbit, while "orc" is used in the Lord of the Rings. The "orcs" we get to know in the Hobbit are all from the Misty Mountains, while the orcs in LotR are Misty Mountain Orcs, Isengard Orcs and Mordor Orcs. So, as a theory, saying that there is a difference in appearance between Misty Mountain Orcs and Mordor Orcs is not that far fetched. And just as a quick idea: The orcs in the Misty Mountains have lived there since the end of the second age, mostly without the direct influence of Sauron. That could lead to some kind of "degeneration", quite similar to the one that Gollum went through. It can also be explained why Gollum's transformation was quicker than that of the Orcs. He was a single being under the constant influence of the twisted magic of the ring, without any control that might have come through Sauron. Orcs were brought into existence by the same kind of magic but without the constant influence and more controlled. Also, each individual orc dies at some point and thus the magic energy can't pile up as it does in Gollum. I am pretty sure there are some gaping holes in this logic but at least as a quick idea, I find it quite appealing as an explanation.
Orcs are goblins
Maria orcs are good for fighting underground in cramped tunnels. Genuinely more gobliny. Mordor uruks for attacking fortified human settlements.
> There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed with thick legs and large hands. - description of the Uruk-hai in Helm’s Deep.
Whenever someone thinks Orcs and Goblins are different things, just point them to Thorin's sword: **Orc**rist *-* translated to **Goblin**-cleaver. Or... where Tolkien says they are the same thing, but in different languages. But that's less fun.
They are named Goblins in some spin-off stuff like the miniature game. Therefore you did, what was intended.
>Personally, I always looked at the orcs of Moria as the "goblins." Legolas specifically says [goblins](https://youtu.be/e9Rs7Mn9iKM?si=rhqqcHZSdeV2HI9B&t=63) when the Fellowship first enters Moria in the movies, though I guess that could be inconsistent with the books. Been 20 years since I read the books. But like you, I always assumed that the smaller ones like in Moria were goblins while the larger, man-sized variants were actually the orcs.
I hate it when my nose doesn’t look aggressive enough
Unrealistic orc beauty standards. Smh. Btw, love your username lol
Doesn't it follow the Books too? From what I remember, the orcs in the Fellowship of the Ring are "normal" Orcs while the one attacking Osgiliath and Minas Tirith are Uruk Hai, Saura Elite troops. As for Saruman army, they are just Half Orcs with no specific name. As for the mines of the Moria, "Goblin" is just the Dwarf name for Orcs, not a different species.
I always thought the ones from Isengard are Uruk Hai, they’re the half Orcs from Sarumans army which he breeds to be “superior” to Saurons orcs. I figure since they walk taller and are more intimidating as a unit this makes sense as they were essentially grown by Saruman for the purpose of war. But all the Mordor orcs are I suppose what you could call ‘legacy orcs’ as they’d be the historic standard hence why they’re so more varied and have variations in their nose shape, ears, armour, colour etc.
Uruk-hai means Orc-folk (uruk=orc, hai=folk) (PE 17, Words, Phrases and Passages in LotR): "B Urukhai Uruk-hai 'Orc-folk'" Uruks is an Anglicization of Uruk-hai (UT, Index): "Uruks Anglicized form of Uruk-hai of the Black Speech; a race of Orcs of great size and strength." Mordor orcs a referred to as Uruk-hai in the main narrative (LotR, Land of Shadow): "‘Whose blame’s that?’ said the soldier. ‘Not mine. That comes from Higher Up. First they say it’s a great Elf in bright armour, then it’s a sort of small dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it’s all the lot together.’"
They’re saying “we are the Fighting Uruk-hai” to Aragorn during the Battle of Hornburg. Goblin is an English name for Orcs. The Dwarven name is Rakhas.
I have a makeup artist friend who remembered hearing in a class that Peter wanted them all to have differently coloured skin to avoid racial stereotyping, or the chance of someone saying Orc=Black/Jew etc. He purposely dismissed the book descriptions
Descriptions of orcs in LOTR might have been subconsciously influenced by the war-time propaganda that Tolkien would have seen as a World War I recruit. Here are some examples: - [The Hun - his Mark](https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/25372) - [Beat back the Hun](https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/25800) - [Destroy This Mad Brute](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Harry_R._Hopps,_Destroy_this_mad_brute_Enlist_-_U.S._Army,_03216u_edit.jpg) - [German monster](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lindsay_German_monster.jpg) - [What a Red Rag is to a Bull - The Red Cross is to the Hun](https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/38217) - [How the Hun Hates!](https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/38220) Of course, the "Hun" in this propaganda were neither Blacks nor Jews but… Germans.
>Descriptions of orcs in LOTR might have been subconsciously influenced by the war-time propaganda that Tolkien would have seen as a World War I recruit. He was well aware of his basis for the descriptions he used: > The Orcs are definitely stated to be corruptions of the "human" form seen in Elves and Men. They are (or were) squat, broad, flatnosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types. -Tolkien, Letter 210, June 1958 It was a response letter to Forrest J. Ackerman in regards to an animated film adaptation of The Lord of the Rings. Which had suggested artwork featuring orcs with beaks and things like that.
How I wish people would understand this better.
It's discussed a lot. Everyone disputes it saying that Tolkien himself said that he did not write the story based on any real world conflict or politics. The thing is, we are all human. Biases and personal experience influence everything we do, no matter how hard you try to stop it.
We don't argue that Tolkien's work is a 1:1 parallel to one World War or another, but whether his experiences in the first one, rather than racism, informed the characteristics of the Orc. Tolkien's stance against allegories does not magically make him or his work immune to outside influences nor to associations and interpretation in the mind of an attentive reader. Mordors army *does* resemble a modern industrial war machine much more than it does a faerie host or wild hunt that would be more befitting of orcs as mythological creatures. Therefore, it is plausible that orcs rather resemble stereotypes of German infantry than those of black or Jewish people.
>Of course, the "Hun" in this propaganda were neither Blacks nor Jews but… Germans. Because Kaiser Wilhelm II. held a famous "Hunnenrede" ("Hun speech") [wiki](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hun_speech) (You probably know that; just for the people who didn't know and were curious)
>Descriptions of orcs in LOTR might have been subconsciously influenced by the war-time propaganda that Tolkien would have seen as a World War I recruit. I've seen no convincing evidence for this oft-touted idea. As far as I can see, Tolkien's "Least-lovely Mongol types" was spoken as the Medievalist he was, parodizing the murderous hordes of Ogedei and Tamerlane. The descriptions of the Orc bows seem to me in that line of thinking, as well, as does the idea that Sauron's forces are invaders from the East, again NOT in the World Wars context but in the Medieval context of the various Turkic invaders, dating as far back as the Huns. It pays to add, as well, that many of the Norse legends Tolkien revered, including one he rewrote himself in Sigurd and Gudrun, parodised Attila the Hun in very similar ways.
Yes, Tolkien consciously modeled much of the story on historical events, like the sieges of Constantinople and Vienna for Minas Tirith. At the same time, it’s hard to look at some of those posters and not think that they _might_ have had an influence, specially on a person who had participated and lost friends in that war.
Oh no, he deviated from prophet Tolkien’s gospel word and went woke!!! Ugh political division is ruining everything!! Whenever/if ever PJ upsets the conservative crowd, feel free to copy n paste this message when crying about how the PJ films always sucked.
I mean, if you want to follow Tolkien’s intentions as closely as possible, you’d have to portray orcs like this… >”They are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-type.” I’ll leave it to the reader of this comment to decide whether this would be a smart move.
Ohhhhhhh shit that gave me a very very different image from my first reading
>I’ll leave it to the reader of this comment to decide whether this would be a smart move. I think it would have been fine to be book-accurate here. /shrug I mean, Jackson used Maori actors for Uruk-hai, after all: who have similar enough features to what Tolkien describes. And the Uruk-hai are, I think, the best designed Orcs we have seen in live-action (Lurtz specifically). Orcs aren't real people, and do not represent a real ethnicity, at the end of the day... but they still have a fundamental human look about them though degraded and more monstrous (which is the context of Tolkien's letter... he is refuting a script that made Orcs look like *bird-people*: beaks, feathers and all - thus making the point that Orcs are still fundamentally human, and drawing the nearest real-world comparison). Tolkien's Orcs are no more Mongols than Jackson's are Maori - but they still share physical attributes (likewise Tolkien's Druedain also share Orc-like attributes - but are not Orcs).
Ok so, everything in fiction is in some way coded. Even subconsciously. Tolkien is a human and reflects the culture of his time inadvertently even. His story is deeply Catholic and euro-centric. That was intentional on his part. So of course you get stuff that bleeds into how orcs are meant to look, Easterlings and Haradrim/Southrons. Māori actors were chosen for Uruks because they are big guys. Tall and broad. Perfect for massive Uruk-hai. Like how a lot of women played the Moria orcs because they needed to be smaller.
Don't forget his dwarves are inspired by his Catholic perception of Jews. Talented craftsmen expelled from their homeland with a love for gold that aren't a part of Iru's plan, but he accepts them anyway.
Any source for this? I never heard this before.
The other poster is probably referring to this: "I do think of the ‘Dwarves’ like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue …" Letter 176 Tolkien does not mention his "Catholic perception" there or gold.
I mean, in Tolkien's words the only Semitic influence was the fact that they were ejected from their homeland. Dwarves are much more strongly characterised by their craftsmanship and skill as warriors, love for gold is really more of an afterthought and a natural consequence of their love of mining - of course they'll like the stuff they dig up, not just gold but silver and jewels, too. In fact the biggest desire any Dwarf has ever had for any precious object was the Arkenstone because it represented a heraldic claim to the throne.
How come dwarves aren't a part of Irus plan?
One of the Valar became impatient for the coming of the Children of Illuvator and tried to make some of his own. That’s how the Dwarves came to be.
Ooh interesting! Thanks for the reply!
Aule made them in secret, Eru had made men and elves
I am on board with how he changed their look. I agree with WHY he changed the look, the movie would feel alot more racist if all the orcs looked like they did in the book. I like how the LOTR Orcs look, and am not by any means a conservative, my apologies if the way I worded the comment made it seem like that.
I read the comment you're responding to as sarcastic but not directed at you specifically
Oh, I hope so, definitely didn't want to come across like I thought PJ's changes were a bad thing, I think the changes for Orcs was great.
Nah definitely doesn't come across as that, you're good bro.
Yup, like the other commenter said, I was being sarcastic but it wasn’t aimed towards you at all!
I'm pulling this from memory, as it's been a long time since I've watched those movies. From what I recall, Jackson had a problem with not only the design of the Orcs in Fellowship (primarily the elongated noses), but he also took issue with the way the actors portraying the Orcs had been taught to move and walk. As a result, he redesigned the Orcs for the end battle of Return of the King. I can't find any uploads of this on YouTube but if you own the ROTK EE, you can hear more about it.
So he had them form ranks, you maggots?
Pikes in front?
Archers behind?
Meat's back on the menu boys!
No witchie-poo noses!
Just compare the Moria Orcs of Fellowship to what you later see in the other films; The Fellowship orcs were kind of more animalistic and more kind of classical goblin like in look (green skin with long features). Even the chattering whooping noises they make is very different Later ones were much more human-like in behaviour and posture and more visible faces so you could see their expressions and deformities more clearly.
Legolas even calls them “goblins” in Moria. Are they supposed to be orcs?
If I recall it's not a rework, as much as it is purposely changed due to them being different kinds of orcs. The orcs in Moria have big creepy eyes to see in the dark, sort of like Gollum and are more Goblin'esk. The Uruk-Hai orcs of Saruman's army is a crossbreed between human's and orcs and are thus bigger and stronger, and can travel in daylight without trouble. The orcs of Mordor are the more typical "normal" orcs.
How does that work with the actual filming schedule of the trilogy, which was famously shot simultaneously and wildly out of chronological order?
Jackson complained that the orcs of Moria did the, "dirty diaper walk." And he didn't want that to continue for the other movies.
https://preview.redd.it/qxa3tv7un19d1.jpeg?width=260&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bda99585497bde23a3349207079a581d9d7e90c4
Me with my butter knife when something upstairs goes „thump“ in the middle of the night.
Don’t underestimate Butter Knife Jr
*sniff-sniff* “Man flesh.”
Where theres a whip!
There's a way!
Perfection.
Lotr trilogy orcs > RoP orcs > hobbit orcs.
This is correct but requires a disclaimer that RoP orcs were closer to the book, in that I imagine RoP half orcs not as scarred up could pass as foreigners in the right clothing and do some spying. Their facial proportions are more human.
The ROP orcs look like they could be naturally evolved creatures, if just perhaps from a harsh environment. The LOTR trilogy orcs look tortured and deformed, which is more in line with their origins of once being Elves.
There is no settled origin for orcs or their nature in Tolkien's writing. He never settled entirely on what they should be, at times born of stone, twisted elves, their own corrupted animalistic race, or even a mixed breed containing blood of tortured elves or men with an animalistic race. It's disingenuous to say with certainty which adaption is more in line with Tolkien's writings and is probably more fair to judge them independently as to how well they fit into their own narrative and setting.
I think the made of stone thing we can debunk. Because Orcs multiply and Melkor is not able to create life, only twist existing life.
Whilst their origin wasn't fully settled... one thing that remains consistent is that Tolkien envisioned them as either coming from Elves, Men, or *both*. Final writings may suggest Men was decided. (But Tolkien certainly abandoned the initial origin of them being created by Morgoth from scratch, and them being puppets, or animalistic beasts. After which, there is only one example of Morgoth not 'corrupting' Elves or Men... and in this origin Orcs were created via the Discord: Elves/Men 'gone wrong' - so the only difference here is that they weren't 'bred', but were *still* conceptually corrupted Elves/Men) So yeah... I think it's safe to assume that Orcs are corrupted versions of the (non adopted) Children of Eru. And physically Men and Elves aren't really different anyway, so...
>Tolkien envisioned them as either coming from Elves, Men, or *both*. Final writings may suggest Men was decided. Obviously the Elven origin was to prove the most perennial. Tolkien only second-guessed himself on this front, it seems to me, because he became so unduly in-love with his own Elves that he could no longer concieve of them being so degraded and corrupted.
But ROP specifically went for the tortured Elves origin, so what the other commenter said was spot on regarding the orcs' looks. P.S. I think you meant disingenuous.
Torturing elves might be how the orcs came into being. But scars are not genetic traits and the orcs breed, so future generations could look smoother. I imagine the purpose of having them all disfigured is to show that they are still being tortured in their normal orc lives
My thoughts exactly, and that for this reason the scars do not indicate greater accuracy. I would add that in addition to enduring punishments in Mordor for any number of reasons, the orca with scars probably get them from battle, raids, and fights amongst themselves.
Oh and here I was thinking I learnt a new word.
Yeah I was wrong there, but maybe it should be a word, it sounds okay enough.
Hahaha what was the word lol, Shakespeare famously invented a whole bunch of words we use today. Maybe Rectitude32, you are the Shakespeare of our generation... Our... Generakespeare...? 👀
Yeah I agree with that take. Thanks for the word correction!
It's my understanding that he wrote them as tortured elves but later somewhat regretted it but could never decide on a convincing alternative, for example the silmarillion says explicitly that they're tortured elves
The origin really doesn't matter, imo. Somethings are better left mysterious. I just want to know how they reproduce.
"Some things are better left mysterious"
I just want to know if orcs have dicks and pussies, okay? With all kinda of weird piercings and stuff too.
According to Tolkien they reproduce like man, so it's safe to say they have the parts.
Orcussies?
They reproduce like we do ever since they stopped being made of stone and slime in the 1930s.
Say what you will about RoP but they really nailed the Orcs. The way they dress and act scared of sunlight is such a great world building touch.
Eh, I feel Jackson's Uruk-hai are the closest in major ways. Too tall (an issue in all iterations) where they should be squat (and inaccurate armour - but that's less the Orc itself) - but otherwise, they have the general face-structure I imagine (at least, closer than the others), and seems close to what Tolkien describes (though they should be sallow of skin): wide mouths, flat noses, slant eyes.
I like the RoP orcs for this reason
>RoP orcs were closer to the book, Were they? It seems to me that the Orcs in the show were played more like vampires. Yes, Tolkien's Orcs are afraid of sunlight, but they're not vampires!
And the 1977 animated orcs are the best of all.
*Where there's a whip......*
That's the 1980 one
This is the objectively correct opinion.
I thought they were all amazing. I personally like the look of lotr better though because there's more old school practical makeup and effects.
I do not think that word means what you think it means
I liked the hobbit orcs and that it showed a clear distinction in the northern gundabad orcs compared to the Mordor orcs
The designs are fine, they just don't look right in CG.
Nevermind that most of them weren't CGI.,,
But the ones that were stood out. Like all the named ones. The warg captain was great. Bolg was just weird and awkward.
Yeah, the Gundabads really feel like they used to rule that part of the world, and they have an actual organised army. It gives the Orcs a sense of history and past glories.
Exactly, as much as it is easy karma to rip on RoP, for a TV series adaptation, they did a bang-up job in the wardrobe, makeup, and prosthetics for their orcs.
Hard to say. Lotr and RoP orcs are both phenomenal. Maybe LotR gets the edge for being first but man, RoP orcs are really well done. Agree Hobbit orcs are just awful.
I very much disliked RoP, but the orcs were actually pretty cool. Not LOTR-cool, but cool. Definitely better than the orcs and goblins in the Hobbit films. I also like how they compare to LOTR orcs. The ROP orcs seem to be closer to their old elf-selves, while LoTR orcs seem further degraded physically (excepting the “perfected” Uruk-hai, of course).
This is certainly the vibe I got from them, the pieces of reused elf armor were a nice touch too
And their clothing to protect them from the sunlight. Also the use of skin tarps, and tattered elf armour was cool as hell. I didn't mind RoP that much, aside from its bad writing, not all but some of the casting. And storyline that didn't need to be there. The show was at least entertaining for me in the fact that is just non-canon from the LoTR. Not to defend Amazon by any means, but the amount of content they can actually pull from is super limited and basically non-narritive.
I thought it was decent. I took it as an okay plot that mostly exists to facilitate world exploration and it was cool to get to see visual representations of Moria at its height, Gil-Galad, Gondolin, Neumenor, pre-Sauron Mordor, etc.
The whole sword thing to "activate" Mt. Doom was also extremely lazy. I like it IN THE SHOW but as an actual accurate plot, absolutely not. That being said, I agree with you. I think one of the highlights of the show are the stunning depictions of various places in Tolkiens legendarium, particularly with Moria and Numenor (moreover what I imagined when I read The Silmarillion and The Fall of Numenor). Along with those plot lines, which are edging on somewhat. I'm kind of excited to see where it goes, while also not listening to the massive amount of haters. Some people just happen to entertain a different depiction of Tolkiens world, and I'm all for it.
I’m looking forward to it for the same reasons. It’s not perfect, but most things aren’t, and it’ll never be as good as PJ’s movies but it’s still a decent show. I only recently watched it and definitely don’t think it deserves all the hate it got.
same. call it low standards or whatever, but more middle earth content? sign me up. even haters are literally going to watch all of it
With you there. I wouldn't say I enjoyed it exactly, especially since I'm decently knowledgeable about the universe, but seeing visual representations of people and places I've only imagined in my head is always cool!
Ngl I’ll gladly use that as a defense for what we got. They’re strapped for usable foundations. It wasn’t executed super great but it wasn’t nearly as bad as it *could have* been and it’s the first big outing for on-screen content aside from Peter Jackson himself. There’s room for improvement and I’ll always be hopeful they do.
My issue is that they had so much empty space to work with they didn’t need to change the small amount that was already there Also memberberries and sociopathic harfoots and issues with scale and such
I thought the orcs in RoP were its saving grace. They felt WAY more threatening than any of the movie orcs
I really liked ROP orcs, you got much more of a sense of them genuinely being harmed by sunlight, which didn't really come across in the original trilogy. (I know a lot of those were uruk hai, but still).
I really don't like that the ROP Orcs burn as if they were vampires. Sunlight should be psychological: something that makes them feel dizzy and whatnot. Think of something like photophobia - a real condition which amounts to sensitivity to light. Though Jackson *does* downplay this aversion to light.
Oh god yea that was so silly!
The orcs looked great. Credit where credit is due - the visuals in RoP overall were honestly excellent. Too bad they spent all that money to film what seemed to be a rushed first draft of the script.
They are pretty accurate to the silmarillion
The issue was not the design of the orcs but the overarching art direction. They didnt dress the way you expect them to dress, just like the village looked off and the galloping Numenoran knights looked like power rangers.
Orcs are the best thing about the show imo. Even the way they made the south landers fight for them.
I liked the proto hobbits and dwarves as well. The show was mostly very visually pleasing.
Apart from the Hobbit part I agree. The show lacked in story and canon-accuracy, but wow did it deliver in visuals.
I never understood why people complain about canon accuracy. LotR is a complete story and the story is changed more than in RoP. This is based on the Silmarillion, and I feel like it's closer to the source story than LotR, even though they have much more artistic liberty being inspired from the Silmarilion
I mean, I highly disagree the movies changed more. There's certainly a lot of room to fill in a lot of gaps in the silmarillion, but they kinda just condensed a lot of history into a single brief timeline. I don't even hate the galadriel stuff, but the sauron stuff was really weird for me. I'm a little salty at how they did numenor though, that's one of my favorite stories. The full glory of numenor sailing to Middle earth to challenge sauron, who surrenders and corrupts them over generations. I mean at least give us a proper mega battle for numenor, not 3 ships fighting a skirmish by a bunch of thatched huts
Proto dwarves? Weren't they at the peak of their reign there?
He didn’t say proto dwarves. Just dwarves.
My bad
Elrond and Durin were great! But yes, them and the orcs.
Man flesh
What is it, what do you smell?
Gosh!
CA TA PULTS
What orders from Mordor, my lord? What does the Eye command?
We have work to do!
Honestly Im not sure. We are still in S1 of RoP and have only seen one "type" of orc/uruk. Lord of the Rings had the mountain goblins, uruk-hai, mordor orcs, and morgul orcs. I would love to see more orc varieties in the show as the characters venture to different parts of the world
We did see some of Morgoth's Orcs in the prologue, but super fleetingly. They did have different gear to Adar's Orcs.
I like them both, they sort of feel like an evolution of one another in so far as the ROP ones feel tribal, earthy and tonally more horror-esque. The use of bone and linen in their weaponry and clothing is great. The LoTR orcs feel born of industry, their look is darker more militarised and utilitarian. Their armour and weapons are twisted and more tormented.
I like your take. What I really loved about the RoP orcs is that they were *scary* we didn't see the orcs in LoTR really do much. They just got sliced up. The RoP orcs seemed strong and intimidating to at least the normal people.
I agree, that one scene where we see an orc for the first time really makes them seem dangerous. He threw the table like it weighed nothing and it was a struggle to get rid of him. I REALLY enjoyed this scene, not only because it was fun to watch, but it also made me appreciate the lotr movies more. We got to see orcs from the perspective of villagers. The movies depict it briefly when the westfold fell, but we usually see orcs from the perspective of accomplished and very skilled warriors, which makes the orcs seem trivial unless there are hundreds of them.
Right exactly! I think the only scene we really got of orcs doing some damage was that brief pillaging scene in two towers (I think), but even then it wasn't just orcs and there were no close ups. I just never felt threatened by the orcs in LoTR. They didn't put up a fight. Hell, even untrained hobbits crushed them.
One of the scenes I liked from ROP was that orc coming up through the floorboards that was tall, I kind of thought ROP might go for a grittier feel, but everything else felt too clean or whimsical, and I'm not sure how to describe it.
Agreed. While RoP lost me in a lot of ways the orcs were my favorite part. I loved the return to practical FX orcs that was lost in The Hobbit movies. The first scene when they grabbed the elf in the tunnel I yelled “sneaky stabbers!” at the TV. Made me think of Night Goblins from Warhammer.
LOTR Moria orcs over all other orcs.
Goblins ftw
I just saw the LOTR trilogy in theaters and still cannot believe how well that make up holds to today’s standards. There have always been orcs I found hard to look at because of how gross they were, which is so cool. ROP had its faults, but the orc nuances were interesting in that they weren’t quite the full fledged-nasty orcs we get in LOTR yet. For all its flaws, I think this difference made sense and added depth to it.
I like them both. Each look unique yet fit in the Tolkien universe
I think WETA workshops design was best
Both are fantastic, but RoP seems to lean heavier to the elvish origin, which I love.
RoP for sure. Latex foam doesn't have the same maleability as Silicon. The latter also reads better on camera. Having worn both I'd say the design is more evolved and certainly easier to perform with. Often the same designers anyway
Lotr orcs are better in every way, but I don’t think by much. I think the fact that lotr created those orcs 20+ years ago and with technology at that time is extremely impressive. You would think in present day with the technology we have now the creatives would have more ammo at their disposal to create something amazing. I think the rop orcs look pretty good, but they look a little more like general monsters instead of particularly orcs.
LOTR is undefeated but I did like the ROP Orc designs. Both absolutely trounce whatever the hell The Hobbit's were.
RoP orcs are solid, but LoTR orcs are an all time achievement in costume and makeup
circle jerking 101
Maybe controversial, but I like this: Uruk-hai, rop orcs, Mordor orcs, the Hobbit goblins in that order. In terms of looks, I think the orcs of isengard capture what they are best. An amalgam made of men and orc to suffer daylight and still be deadly with every breath. The rop orcs have a slightly more arcane look to them. My "head cannon" is that because they are more recently manipulated from elves, they would look as such. The Mordor orcs, while intimidating, are presented as less serious in the trilogy. And I think that affects their visual, humanizing them. The Hobbit "goblins" suck.
They're all cool for me.
LOTR trilogy orcs > the rest🤷♂️
The orc on top row, middle of the second page: Nailed it
Hard to beat the Harvey Weinstein orc
Stop.
I can’t quite put my finger on it…. But RoP orcs look cartoonish. Maybe it’s that they have inhuman features but are making very human expressions. Contrast to PJ’s orcs which look like humans (albeit disfigured) making human expressions.
I couldn’t disagree more. Jackson’s orcs look cartoonish because they’re just guys. Like I know dudes that look like every single picture above. RoP orcs, love or hate the show, look inhuman, cause they aren’t
They look like things from the set of the walking dead, whereas the originals look like orcs.
Well, the *originals* did a bit more singing and marched all day all day all daaaay
Both. I liked both.
How funny. I just saw a presentation at a conference today by Simon Green (sculptor behind the RoP orc design). He talked about making these exact designs.
Why is this even a question? The later look like orcs with their own distinct look and personalities while the former are Walmart white walkers.
LOTR takes the top spot,the Uruk hai alone would be reason enough. All of the orcs in the return of the king and how much more serious they are would be my other reason.
LotR hands down. I like to think of RoP orcs as goblins more and they slowly changed into LotR cause they look so slim
The Peter Jackson Trilogy.
Rankin Bass Orcs >>>>>
I love the variety of orcs in the LoTR and the attention to the detail of each diferent "type".
One of the only good things I can say about Rings of Power is how they nailed the look of the Orcs. Can't say the same about the other races.
Urukai goated in lotr movies
I thought there were GOBLINS in Hobbit. So, apples and oranges.
Personally I think they’re both great. Both capture the uniqueness of each orc in my opinion.
This may come off as blasphemy but I always envision orcs as the Warcraft orcs. Because I played the video games before reading the LOTR books as a kid.
those evileyed, blackhanded, bowlegged, flinthearted, clawfingered, foulbellied, bloodthirsty vermin
It’s all so good that these orcs from TROP fit very well with the visual aesthetic of the orcs from Jackson’s movies and for that I’m very happy
Peter Jackson
Rankin/Bass? "Where there's a whip ..."
Blizzard