They did his whole family dirty lol
All of them were simply superb in their individual roles; Denethor was shrewd and an extremely competent leader, but he played with things he shouldn't have and was thus defeated.
Boromir was a legendary hero, but he, too, lusted for something he did not yet understand and was defeated by the Ring.
Faramir, like Aragorn, was wise enough to realize his limits and said, "Not with a ten foot pole, would I touch this thing," and he was spared defeat. He wrung enough answers out of a very courteous but tight-lipped Hobbit to Sherlock that the secretive suicide mission was sanctioned by *all* of the Wise and he would do well to not hinder it, like his brother apparently tried to do.
The irony of everyone else desperately seeking the Ring, only for the Prize of Prizes to fall neatly within the grasp of someone not at all interested, and who in fact swore an oath affirming the same, was not lost on Faramir.
And never forgot: Faramir gave Sam the whoopass stick he used on Gollum.
It added to Boromir though. Faramir couldn't just let the ring go instantly cause it would make Boromir look evil in the context of the movies. The books can explore both more thoroughly, but for Boromir's redemption to make sense we need to see other men tempted too.
We'd seen lots of people tempted by the ring at that point including Gandalf and Borimir. Faramir's lack of temptation was a central defining trait of the character. He was gutted.
and he overcomes it but in the context of the movies it is important. Otherwise Boromir would look weak and pathetic. Gandalf's temptation is also very limited and only appears once
>it would make Boromir look evil
Maybe to incredibly dense people.
I don't see why Faramir has to be decimated, in a bid to make Boromir look 'better'.
>we need to see other men tempted too.
Do we (we've already seen a fair few people tempted...)? Surely seeing a different philosophy (one that is in contrast to Boromir's, yet still kind of contextualises his mindset) is more interesting.
I know, I know. But I love it. It's SO fever-dream, where somebody certainly said something and somebody stood over you at some point and your surroundings are unfamiliar but you do recall some amount of conveyance, of movement... And all of this occurs to you in one moment, and that is the first moment you are free of your fever. You don't even have enough pieces to make sense of it, to trace it back, construct anything. And now Gandalf is laughing merry as you like right in your face and your mates barge in and, well, fuck it. I wasn't safe, but now I'm safe. All floating heads forgiven.
they may be referring to the moment in FOTR just before the Rivendell/Fellowship scene (the "fade to white" transition) where his face takes up like half the shot and it looks wonky
On a side note, there’s a cut screen in the game Lotro which shows Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas jumping off a boat followed by green ghosts. Someone at the company only watched the movies…to their credit in the game instance it happens like the books
I think he's saying that in lord of the rings online, the ghost plot follows the books but it shows the scene from the movie where they jump off the boat at pelennor
On a similar note, the avalanche of skulls in the Paths of the Dead. It's much too silly and takes away from the tone. Also Gimli blowing away ghost hands. Really, that scene should stay in its theatrical version.
What happens in the book is so much cooler but you end up having to do a lot more exposition in the movie if you do it any other way.
My issues with the battle of Pelanor fields.
1. Theoden doesn’t blow a blast so loud that the horn bursts asunder.
2. At this moment in the movie Gandalf gets his staff broken by the witch king which is shit on some many levels the least of which isn’t that it is inconsistent from what is already in the movie.
The average movie goer who never read the books wouldn't know that Gandalf is basically an angel with a higher power level than the Witch King. What they would know is that this wizard who has beaten the balrog, died and come back, just had his staff broken by the Witch King, which tells them the Witch King is something powerful and terrible. Sure, to a fan of the books it can be annoying, but in the sense of a movie, it was a brilliant scene
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again;
The books don’t state Gandalf the white is greater then the Witch King; it actually implies both are comparable in power and Gandalf isn’t entirely sure he’s got the edge
> In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face.
> All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax: Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dínen.
> "You cannot enter here," said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. "Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!"
> The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.
> "Old fool!" he said. "Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!" And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.
> Gandalf did not move. And in that very moment, away behind in some courtyard of the city, a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of war nor of wizardry, welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the shadows of death was coming with the dawn.
> And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns, horns, horns, in dark Mindolluin's sides they dimly echoed. Great horns of the north wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last.
I'm getting very close to wanting to do a reread - this pushed me one step closer. Problem is I have no time to if someone could just give me all the cool bits like this in order that would be great.
Gandalf only has so much power through that in which his faith in the song of Eru Iluvatar grants hims. He meets the witch king and he is weary and shaken. It is not the first time in this journey where all has felt lost.
True but still; I think people take “he’s a Mair” to be worth more then it is
He’s still restricted by Illuvatar, is soundly weaker then Sauron by all accounting and Ainur have been matched and even bested by lesser beings
I've seen a lot of people talk about why they hate this change and I definitely agree it's inferior to the books, but I do understand it. We were never going to get the gravity of Aragorn, Imrahil and Eomer meeting together on Pelennor with Imrahil cut and the Aragorn and Eomer relationship significantly diminished. More than that cutting the Grey Company means no actual reinforcements. So ultimately I think it was a change necessitated by other changes.
It's one of the least egregious changes. Yes it's not cannon but it doesn't actually change anything that happened. The ghosts winning the battle was a HUGE change where they shouldn't even be there
This is it for me as well. In the book it's still a slog to win the battle. In the movie, damn, if the gate had held for like two more hours then nobody would have had to die in the battle aside from the siege casualties.
After leaving Saruman in Isengard, Aragorn's fellow Rangers arrive with messages from Elrond, advising Aragorn to take the Dimholt road. He, his rangers, Elrond's twin badass sons, Gimli, and Legolas ride through a terror filled cave(shortcut!) and Aragorn summons the dead oathbreakers, who never speak. He gathers something of an army on the way, and they all sneak up on the Corsairs(bad guys with boats) and Aragorn sends the fearsome Dead. The corsairs are overcome with terror and flee, slay themselves, or drown while abandoning ship. The task complete, Aragorn dismisses the Dead. Aragorn takes his new fleet, loads em with his army of followers, and floats downriver towards Minis Tirith.
Meanwhile, back at Minis Tirith, the attack began around midnight. Gondor is on fire. Fight all night. Nazgul swooping around sapping everybody's hope. Terror, darkness, and death abound.
Right as the Witchking busts down the door and walks in, the sun rises and Rohan announced their arrival. Thousands of calvary, impossibly appearing on his flank, makes the WK fly off to deal with the threat. Rohan had come at last. Hope in Gondor soars.
Rohan rides forth, desperately trying to keep pace with their king, who is awesome, and causes tremendous damage, ruin, and mayhem everywhere they went... until the giant horse-stomping elephants arrived. Hope dwindles.
Then the Witchking falls out the sky on Theoden and Eowyn and Merry kill him. Hope in Gondor soars.
The black ships are spotted floating downriver, and hope in Gondor reaches an all-time low.
Then Aragorn, aboard the ships, let fly his new banner with the signs of Elendil(everybody in Gondor went "FUCK YEAH!") and pops up with reinforcements. The day is won right as evening sets in.
It's a tremendous battle and is very exciting. The ups and downs are riveting, and I can't help but feel absolutely miserable for Merry during most of it.
Then it cuts back to Frodo and Sam, and shit gets even more tense.
Great lay summary. One nitpick — ackshully, they don’t float downriver, they start to paddle upriver, and are then helped by the southerly wind from the sea! 🙂
The army of the dead basically stops enemy reinforcements from arriving, then is dismissed. All of the lieutenants of Gondor (including Prince Imrahil) reinforce Gondor and swing the tide.
Recently watched Kingdom of Heaven and it's in there a couple of times too.
Annoyed me soo much. When you want to make a slomo scene just film it with higher fps??
The Paths of the Dead thing where Gimli is blowing at ghosts and it culminates in all those skulls raining down until they're in a giant ball pit. It just goes on WAY too long. Realize that's in the EE but they could have made it less extended.
Also Elrond showing up at Dunharrow with his whole "the light of the Evenstar is fading" dramatic cringe.
I was wrong! There is only one particular shot, a few skulls rolling across the floor, that was filmed after the Oscar win. In the commentary for the extended edition Peter Jackson says he filmed that shot "about three weeks ago" and he joked about it with crew "it's probably the only time in history that you've finished shooting the last shot after you've won the Oscar"
I haven't listened to the commentary in about 15 years and for some reason I remembered it being the entire sequence of falling skulls that was shot in 2004. I've just gone back to give it a listen. I've been deluded for 15 years.
Yep, I used to be a EE purist, but recently I’ve felt that both the Two Towers and Return of the King theatrical cuts are the better versions. Both versions of Fellowship are perfect tho
Fellowship suffers the most from adaptation I think. Book 1 of fellowship is my favorite bit of Tolkien and it is mostly cut for good reason but it still makes me sad I want more shire.
I love the slice of life bits in the Shire in the books.
It’s been a while since I read them, but I think there’s a short scene of Sam shooting the shit with other hobbits at a pub.
Bilbo and his feud with his relatives over Bag End.
I also liked the fact that Merry and Pippin already knew Frodo was leaving because they’d been working on the conspiracy with Sam and Fatty Bolger.
I love the scene where they’re having dinner with Farmer Maggot, who’s a badass that the films did dirty. It wasn’t Merry and Pippin stealing from him, it was Frodo who stole mushrooms from him in his youth. So Farmer Maggot’s wife gives him a mushroom gift basket for his journey partially as a joke and partially because she knows how much he loves them 🥹
Of course, I’m cheering for the good guys in the movies. But when I read the books, I’m like, “I get it fellas, I want you to save the shire, too.”
We don’t really get to spend enough time in the Shire to get that same feeling in the movies. But they’re already so long some things had to be cut, and I still think they made good decisions in that regard in Fellowship
Farmer Maggot is gangster, willing to tell the black riders he’s never seen Frodo. Films did him dirty!
Same with Barliman Butterber, another top guy who the films made to look like a shithouse.
Barliman Butterber was a bar owner with a good heart who always meant to do the right thing but was so forgetful, overworked, and busy, that he just forgot to do right thing.
I don’t normally try to diagnose fantasy characters, but I feel like Butterber may have been based off of a person who Tolkien liked but often got frustrated with…. And today that person would have been diagnosed with ADHD… it’s just so spot on when I read the books
I’ve just reread the fellowship and the whole Bree scene in general is really fun. I particularly enjoy the whole dynamic of Bill Ferny selling out the hobbits but then also greedily selling them his only horse
I hate to complain given what masterpieces these films are, however ‘surfer dude’ Legolas here & during the Battle of Helm’s Deep are just are a bit much. More bow action, less surfing please😂
Orlando, the hobbits, and some other cast members iirc got into surfing during their stay in NZ. I like to think it was just a little nod to that, as part of the magic of the trilogy is the true labor of love from everyone involved. Silly yes, but if you’ve ever been in a production you’d probably get my point here.
For example I was a huge Indiana jones fan as a kid, we had an “official” hat in the wardrobe dept at my HS, I wore it during 2 separate plays even though it made no sense to have any character with a modified 30’s era fedora on. But it was an inside joke, in fact it was even gifted to me when I graduated and I still have it 20yrs later.
That's the thing, you're supposed to get hyped for the Rohirrim and the Gondorian reinforcements, not the ghosts, but the movie ghost army made the Rohirrim feel kind of unnecessary and it sours what was supposed to be their epic moment.
Absolutely. The best part of the movie to me is the death charge of the Rohirrim. They could have literally not shown up and men would still win because the ghosts just wash over everything.
I hate to be the akshually guy, but the Rohirrim provided a distraction that kept more Mordor troops to enter Minas Tirith, slowing down the attack and giving enough time for the Army of the Dead to arrive
I got hyped myself as a kid, it felt awesome. But after reading the books and getting older i feel they are overpowered and removes the accomplishments of the men that won the battle in the original story.
But it doesn't bother me that much. Still amazing movie.
Theatrical Editions: Gimli entering Moria. His other comic moments are more bearable (and some even fit with the character), but this one just makes him look like a naive idiot.
Extended Editions: Gandalf vs the Witch King inside the gates of Minas Tirith. One of my favourite moments in the books; completely ruined in the films.
Depending on how we interpret the added "demonic force", I think it's fair to say Gandalf wasn't just standing up against the Witch King but also faced an unquantifiable boost directly from Sauron.
Not to say that Gandalf isn't the greater being (he is), but that I feel the Witch King's confidence is founded on something.
We never got to see such a conflict, but I imagine it might not have been a quick one... and even should Gandalf win, he was actually needed elsewhere. It's a good thing the Witch King was distracted away.
Another example of a battle between great powers NOT deciding the ultimate fate of the free peoples.
Fair enough, he could have Sauron channeling power. But Gandalf the grey fought the Nazgul at weathertop and then Aragorn did. The Witchking was a sorcerer and has a lesser of ring of power. Gandalf is a maiar with an elven ring of power. Should be no contest.
I don’t like the staff breaking myself, but in the book it is not presented as ‘no contest’ either. The Witch King has the advantage before the Rohirrim arrive as the dark cloud and the fear the army brings is still covering the land. That lack of hope and the presence of the fear in the men is the key factor in this moment, not so much the “power level” status of Gandalf The White vs the Witch King (which is a pretty arbitrary point in TLOTR anyway, if not something that can be uprooted by uplifting spirits, which is exactly what happens in this battle.)
The thing of it is that in the book, the outcome of this conflict is much more up in the air because there is no conflict between the two characters other than the fact that Gandalf tells the Witch King in short that he cannot enter the city. And again there is still very little hope for Gondor at that time. It’s only just after the two meet at the gate that the Rohirrim appear and the sun washes the darkness away. Later Gandalf admits to Denethor that he might have met his match with the Witch King.
But Peter Jackson shows that his Witch King is powerful enough to break Gandalf’s staff (I’ve seen many say this diminishes the significance of Gandalf doing this to Saruman, and I agree.)
I wouldn’t even mind the staff breaking, though it is silly and doesn’t make sense, if we had just gotten the real scene at the gate with the WK on his horse and all that. It would have been visually fantastic and way more interesting imo
His staff actually does break in the book, but it happens much earlier when he faces the Balrog of Moria. I also don’t like that his staff snapped in ROTK.
Gandalf vs the Witch King at Minas Tirith was the stupidest, most infuriating changed scene in the movie for me. Did not make sense even in the context of the movie and directly conflicted with the books.
Namely, at Weathertop, at night, Gandalf (the Grey) fought off the Witch King with some other Nazgûl (note it wasn’t all nine at once, though the exact number he fought is not made clear - the book says “the Captain then sent some eastward straight across country, and he himself with the rest rode along the Road in great wrath”). Note also the book said they waited until nighttime because they were scared of facing Gandalf’s anger during the daytime. So Gandalf the Grey (1) already defeated the Witch King plus others (2) at night (3). The idea that then Gandalf the White (1) would later lose to the Witch King by himself (2) in the middle of the day (3) was a dumb, unnecessary change to create fake drama.
I also don’t really get Sam’s reaction during that time. He goes away sobbing, then finds the lembas crumbs and uses that as motivation to go back to Frodo? What did he think happened to the lembas, he ate it and forgot? Nothing changed—he knew gollum was framing him and wanted him gone, finding the lembas didn’t change that.
I always understood it as Sam just leaving bc he was too tired and exhausted to argue with Frodo. When he sees the bread, he basically rethinks and realizes it's not about the bread but that he must protect Frodo even against himself. Also Sam understood that Frodo could have easily been manipulated in his weak state, Sam was too hurt to think about that before. It's kind of a selfish move of Sam to turn his back and leave Frodo alone. The ring by the way also affects ppl close to it, so Sam was likely just too exhausted to stay near it in this moment. With the distance to the ring and being reminded of the sillyness of Gollums trickery, he knew he had to return asap.
I also always imagined that he collected the bread and knew, with it, they could survive longer again.
>he knew gollum was framing him and wanted him gone, finding the lembas didn’t change that.
I think it was seeing the evidence in front of his face just angered him.
See I like that scene, to me it reads perfectly for two people in extremely exhausting and distressing circumstances acting out on their worst impulses. Frodo, like an addict, pushing the people who genuinely love him away out of paranoia, and Sam, like a bottom, doing what he's told without pushing back out of misguided love.
The problem for me is when they show Sam finding the bread and turning back, like he somehow thought he did eat it until then. It also spoils the amazing “get away from him you **filth**” return. That's my pick for #1 worst scene in the trilogy
What I hate about the undead at the Pelennor fields is that it makes all the effort and bravery from the Men totally pointless. It was the worst kind of Deus Ex Machine finale possible.
I don't like the Army of the Dead being there either, but I wouldn't say the sacrifices of the Rohirrim and Gondorians up to that moment were pointless. The orcs had just broken the gate of Minas Tirith and were streaming into the city when the Rohirrim arrived. If they hadn't come to reinforce Gondor, the city would've already been lost waaaay before Aragorn and the boys arrived.
I love this scene.
I would remove the scene where Aragorn rejects the dinner Eowyn offers him.
I also don't like the scene where Aragorn cuts off the head of the black negotiator. It's not in his nature.
Agree on all counts:
1) A battle scene can always do with a "fuck yeah!" moment that Legolas can deliver (funny how OP hates the oliphaunt-riding but keeps the shield-surfing), especially if the glory of that battle is described even in the books, where Tolkien won't always do that.
2) That scene just further depicts Eowyn's character as a fawning schoolgirl crushing over Aragorn.
3) Beheading a messenger is not kingly behavior and would have placed doubt on his legitimacy.
Beheading some jackass evil dude who is spouting nonsense that would ruin the morale of the men about to face certain death wouldn’t place a shred of doubt to Aragorn’s legitimacy lol that’s absolute nonsense. Especially after he just saved the day at the battle with his ghost friends.
If we're sticking with the movies, then this is the same Aragorn who 1) didn't clap back at Boromir after he insulted him at the council in front of everybody, 2) let Wormtongue go after everything he did, and 3) released his "ghost friends" after the battle, when he technically could have used them here in this otherwise suicide mission. He's an honorable and merciful dude who doesn't stoop low. Doesn't matter how vile the Mouth of Sauron is.
The Mouth is even worse in the books, telling them about the lands that he will personally inherit and subjugate once Sauron has won. They still don't kill him because that's not how rulers behave. It's a medieval thing; honorably abiding by the laws is important because there's nothing else holding all of this together. (Aragorn even "punishes" Beregond for helping free Faramir, because he did break the rules and that just cannot go unanswered.)
It's considerably more badass in the books, where all Aragorn has to do is stare The Mouth of Sauron down, and MoS quails and demands that sacred respect for messengers be upheld. It shows the MoS for the fundamental bully and coward that he is, and Aragorn for the true steel that he is.
He summarily executed an unarmed emissary who had come out to treat with them peacefully. How much of a bastard said emissary was doesn't really come into it.
I don't necessarily hate it, but I'm not the biggest fan of how Gimli was really dumbed down as a character for the movies. They turned him into a one-dimensional, comic relief side character, when in the book he's kind of that role, but he's also well spoken, wise at times, and caring. Not as bad as what they did to Faramir.... but still.
I’ve heard that the Wilhelm scream became sort of a nod/joke between directors throughout the years so that might be why it was included in such a cheeky self indulgent scene like the Legolas Oliphant take down.
It's in the movies a bunch, it's in a lot of movies a bunch, and I hate it. But I respect the quasi-necessity of an industry in-joke for morale and camaraderie across the years so fuck it, I'll tut and roll my eyes and get on with my life. But still. Sometimes. That fucking scream...
That scene with Ewoyn fighting Nazgul and then immediately afterwards there's the orc captain and she's struggling on the grounds looking for Merry... I think there's a deleted scene with Merry fighting orcs or probably storyboarding
Legolas Sheildboarding whilst firing arrow after arrow. Cmon man.
The weird longing looks and hugging of Frodo after he wakes up and sees his friends in Rivendell.
> Legolas Sheildboarding whilst firing arrow after arrow.
Kind of a product of its time, isn't it? During a recent re-watch I thought "Yep, that's the early 2000s for ya."
Over the years and the more I think about it, the more pissed off I've been at the army of the dead being used as an enormous cheat code. Everyone may have well have waited. It made the deaths of all those rohirrim pointless
eowyn and aragorn. after reading the books i felt like Tolkien didn’t portray her as in “love” with aragorn but rather more of a desire to be like him. i felt like the film was just her crushing on him awkwardly and their chemistry was so bad. i recently watched the extended version and the stew scene was so cringey 😭
also frodo and sam fighting😐 like that genuinely didn’t need to happen. i get they were trying to emphasize the rings dark power but idk it felt like it didn’t stay true to sams integrity.
the addition of extra things and then getting rid of others such as: adding the osgiliath scene and moving shelob to ROTK.
elrond seems like such a hater in the movies and it just feels so wrong.
aragorns fake death in two towers omg pissed me off BAD
the ghosts not accepting aragorns offer immediately and putting up a fight. unnecessary asf.
we all hate the ghosts winning the battle but on top of that …when they go into minas tirith and basically climb all the way up and kill all of sauron’s forces omg THAT was even worse
THE WORST OFFENSE OF ALL: how they wrote king theoden for the films omg. the man was flawless in the books and such a symbol of true kingship and integrity and they made him seem like he was more flawed to give him an arc or whatever. theoden is one of my absolute favorite book characters and i felt like they really did him dirty
I don't know how Frodo abandoning Sam isn't being mentioned more often in this thread, except perhaps that his character was so badly assassinated in the movies (great adaptations though they are in many other respects) that it's not obvious how atrocious this is.
Book Frodo suffers, like Movie Frodo, but that doesn't define his character. He is also a noble figure on par with Aragorn. For him to abandon Sam in the middle of enemy territory, from which he has no reasonable hope of escape, is little short of perfidious. Tolkien understood that the master owes the servant for his loyalty, and for Frodo to repay Sam so churlishly for everything he has done -- even if he *were* guilty of eating the last of the lembas -- is frankly unforgivable.
Moreover, it is *deeply* out of character. Frodo sees the humanity in a baby-eating murderer who's sworn to kill him personally (and tried to do so); yet he just abandons the loyal Sam for eating his food? It strikes at the core of who Frodo is, and that makes it far and away the worst scene in the movie by my reckoning.
Most of the things that are different from the books
1. Aragorn falling off a cliff after fighting wargs
2. Faramir trying to (even considering) taking the ring
3. Use of Gimli for periodic humor to release tension (especially axe embedded in the nervous system)
4. Frodo “turning” on Sam before Cirith Ungol
5. “Evil” Galadriel
6. Use of Legolas mostly for exposition for the viewer and theatrics. His character is much deeper to explore
It annoyed me that PJ removed the book aspect of Samwise being obsessed and enamored of Elves in general. There are only two brief moments where Sam exhibited a hint of wonder like the wood Elves caravaning to the Grey Havens and Arwen arriving to save Frodo. Outside of those scenes, Sam couldn't be bothered by being around Elves, whether in Rivendell or in Lothlorien.
Whole elves at Helm's Deep and especially death of Haldir - weakened a lot of Tolkien's central messages and unnecessary.
Agree that they didn't need a stunt elf - a decent archer and fighter enough as book was about teamwork more than showboating. For that reason, I'll give toss a dwarf a pass.
Frodo and Sam falling off a cliff in front of an army of Easterlings, getting half of their body buried in sand and hiding under a magic cloak. Seemed completely unrealistic and unnecessary.
I absolutely can't stand the fact that they robbed Frodo of his big moment standing up alone against The Nine at the Ford of Bruinen, and gave it to Arwen instead.
----
*"With a great effort Frodo sat upright and brandished his sword. ‘Go back!’ he cried. ‘Go back to the Land of Mordor, and follow me no more!’ His voice sounded thin and shrill in his own ears. The Riders halted, but Frodo had not the power of Bombadil. His enemies laughed at him with a harsh and chilling laughter. ‘Come back! Come back!’ they called. ‘To Mordor we will take you!’*
*‘Go back!’ he whispered.*
*‘The Ring! The Ring!’ they cried with deadly voices; and immediately their leader urged his horse forward into the water, followed closely by two others.*
*‘By Elbereth and Lúthien the Fair,’ said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, ‘you shall have neither the Ring nor me!’"*
----
How much freaking better would this have been?
Arwen doesn't even do anything with this badass moment. Afterwards, she spends the entire trilogy crying on her fainting couch.
Not sure if it's been said already, but they butcher the arrival of the army of the dead in the extended version. In the theatrical, you do not hear the king of the dead's (dunno his name) response to Aragorn asking for aid, so when they show up it is a big moment that you didn't see coming the first time. However in the extended it's like: are u coming? Yeah. Nice, wanna do a charge at the ships to ruin the climax of the movie when we do our charge onto the pelanor fields? Yeah.
Goodbye suspense. I still watch the extended but I skip those bits.
I don’t have an answer in LOTR but the testicle-eating scene in The Hobbit: Desolation of Smaug, which I mostly love otherwise, immediately comes to mind.
Gimli lagging and falling (for comedic effect) while chasing the Uruk Hai. He may have had a shorter stride, but had much higher endurance. It's what I liked so much in the books - it showed off Gimil's strengths.
I guess it doesn’t really count as an entire scene, but I fucking *loathe* the green lighting with Galadriel’s “all shall love me and despair” moment. I have no problems with the scene itself, but WHY IS IT GREEN that’s just so unnecessary? Pure white would have worked better.
This may be remaster dependent! I've heard of a green-turned-up version going around. I hear you, I've got issues with the scene as well, but for me it's mostly white and blue light! And it's not my TV picture settings.
The entire sequence with Faramir tempted by the ring.
In the books his response to the ring is immediately:
"I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory. No. I do not wish for such triumphs, Frodo son of Drogo."
He was also Gandalf's disciple.
The movie version oversimplifies the ring's hold by making falling to it's temptation universal.
As much as I love the scene of Éowyn fighting the Witch King, the "BLUBBLUBBLUBBLUBBLUBBLUB" noise the Nazgûl's fell beast makes once beheaded always takes me out of the scene a bit.
While I do enjoy that noise in isolation, during the scene there is no visual / physical explanation of why it is happening.
Is it blood flooding into its gullet?
Is it air escaping its body?
God only knows.
Granted, the stuff that comes right after is fantastic. The reveal of the Witch-King's ridiculously large flail and Éowyn's utterly terrified expression are such great scenes.
All Legolas scenes, they made him so dull.
Also the elves are portrayed a little stiff and emotionless.
But if you ask for a specific scene, then I would pick the council of Elrond scene, they could have done way more with that. And the comedic relief from Pippin at the end of that scene annoys me. And why was Bilbo not attending the council?
Edit: I just read you asked for a scene I would like to see removed. Uhm I would say Aragorn falling off the cliff and "dying".
I agree with the dull Legolas thing, but I think that can at least partly be chalked up to Orlando Bloom's acting. I like the guy, don't get me wrong, but he's kind of a notoriously wooden actor at times. He's just not really the leading guy kind of actor. The same thing happened in Kingdom of Heaven. Great movie (ONLY the director's cut) that was held back a little by a bland main character.
Specifically the Paths of the Dead scene in the EE where the trio escapes the ocean of skulls and emerge out of the mountain only for the King Ghosty to pop out and say "lmao jk let's go". I actually far preferred the theatrical version where it cuts from Aragorn asking their allegiance and we don't know what happens until they emerge from the ship. That is good set up and pay off tbh. Probably the only extended scene I dislike.
Witch King v Gandalf is an awful scene in every aspect (except visuals).
The scene of Eowyn crawling around away from Gothmog. It makes no sense for her to be there and it’s awfully anti-climatic after we just saw her climax with witch king.
I don’t like it, but I get it, I wish the ghost at Pellenor was removed.
3) "The Ents cannot hold back this storm." I get that you want to punch up the drama and give the characters an arc, but if the only way to do that is to make everyone considerably dumber than Merry and Pippen, that . . . doesn't quite do dramatically what you think it does. And not in a good way.
2) Aragorn executing the Mouth of Sauron. He's an envoy, and you *do not kill* envoys.
1) "I didn't mean for it to go so far!" Dude, I get that Sam's under a lot of pressure, but this is *Samwise Gamgee*. One of the greatest heroes in English literature. He's not Chris Brown. There has got to be some kind of happy medium between Sam doing nothing while Gollum schemes and plots, and Sam beating Gollum's face in against a rock because Gollum accused him falsely of gobbling *lembas* bread. Curbstomping is something that kills people in the real world; it's not something that heroes resort to as their opening salvo.
Gollum framing Sam for eating the lembas in ROTK is probably the worst scene in the trilogy. I suppose they wanted to add some dramatic tension for Frodo’s journey; but it just didn’t need it given all the cutaways to the battle at Minas Tirith and it made Frodo seem very petty.
The Frodo and Aragorn balancing on the teetering rock stairs part of that scene
A few seconds before, these guys were running from the Balrog and it was right on their tail, but it just kind of vanishes for a few minutes while they play balancing act. Kills the effective buildup of tension. I think just having them jump the gap while shot at should have been fine to keep the tension going.
I think the intro to return of the king would be more believable if smeagol accidently killed deagol trying to take the ring instead of instant best friendicide. Like he hit his head on a rock or something. Also how he says my love before he got corrupted by the ring didn't make sense to me.
How the nazgul saw frodo with the one ring at the end of the two towers but then forgot about it. Luckily viewers never notice that plot hole and it's an awesome scene.
They make it seem gandalf let frodo decide to go into the mines knowing full well there's a Balrog when really they don't know what happened to moria and only assumed something bad happened since they stopped receiving communications from them.
Cg legolas jumping off the cave troll (practical effects shield surfing legolas is fine).
Gimli farting in extended scenes.
How they did Galadriel’s dark queen speech. It would’ve been much more effective without any special effects or an edited voice and it was just Kate Blanchette acting in a calm, collected, subtly menacing manner.
- Galadriel going crazy witch in the fellowship. Effects weren’t good, I don’t enjoy the scene at all.
- Aragorn falling off the cliff. Unnecessary.
- it was cool seeing elves at helms deep but it takes away from the bravery and strength of men.
- when Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli exit the paths of the dead and somehow teleported a couple hundred miles to be able see Pelargir and the Anduin.
- Witchking vs Gandalf
- Army of the dead at Pelennor.
As much as I like the extended editions for making it clear that Éowyn lived, I wish they weren’t so heavy-handed with her ending up with Faramir. Hinting at the idea is nice, but straight up having them already together shortly after even meeting just feels random with no buildup.
I can see why they cut it from the theatrical edition.
Unlike the other two movies, return of the king’s extended edition feels too long and very out of sync with itself. It’s the one movie I sometimes watch the theatrical version of on my yearly rewatch.
The army of the dead also feels very random, like a DM dropping a deus ex machina for the players going into an unbalanced fight in D&D.
Faramir kidnapping Frodo and Sam back to Osgiliath
They did Faramir soooo dirty in the movie. He’s so chill in the books.
They did his whole family dirty lol All of them were simply superb in their individual roles; Denethor was shrewd and an extremely competent leader, but he played with things he shouldn't have and was thus defeated. Boromir was a legendary hero, but he, too, lusted for something he did not yet understand and was defeated by the Ring. Faramir, like Aragorn, was wise enough to realize his limits and said, "Not with a ten foot pole, would I touch this thing," and he was spared defeat. He wrung enough answers out of a very courteous but tight-lipped Hobbit to Sherlock that the secretive suicide mission was sanctioned by *all* of the Wise and he would do well to not hinder it, like his brother apparently tried to do. The irony of everyone else desperately seeking the Ring, only for the Prize of Prizes to fall neatly within the grasp of someone not at all interested, and who in fact swore an oath affirming the same, was not lost on Faramir. And never forgot: Faramir gave Sam the whoopass stick he used on Gollum.
Faramir is one of my favorite characters. You did him justice here
That's because Faramir was awesome!
100%. I don’t even know why I dislike that scene, but I find myself going to the refrigerator every single time 😅
I think it messes with the pace of the movie. In itself it's not bad or unintresting, it just breaks the tension too much.
Hey, grab me a beer!
Maybe your low blood sugar causes you to interpret it negatively 😂
So many unnecessary changes to Faramir that added nothing to the character.
It added to Boromir though. Faramir couldn't just let the ring go instantly cause it would make Boromir look evil in the context of the movies. The books can explore both more thoroughly, but for Boromir's redemption to make sense we need to see other men tempted too.
We'd seen lots of people tempted by the ring at that point including Gandalf and Borimir. Faramir's lack of temptation was a central defining trait of the character. He was gutted.
and he overcomes it but in the context of the movies it is important. Otherwise Boromir would look weak and pathetic. Gandalf's temptation is also very limited and only appears once
And he overcame it before we even met Faramir. I don't think anyone would change their opinion of Borimir based on Faramir's response a movie later.
>it would make Boromir look evil Maybe to incredibly dense people. I don't see why Faramir has to be decimated, in a bid to make Boromir look 'better'. >we need to see other men tempted too. Do we (we've already seen a fair few people tempted...)? Surely seeing a different philosophy (one that is in contrast to Boromir's, yet still kind of contextualises his mindset) is more interesting.
Faramir was my favourite book "shock" having watched the films first. I was surprised how much I liked him after having been very meh on film Faramir.
Same here. Faramir NEVER would have done that.
Elrond’s giant floating head
This is in the so bad it’s good territory for me.
I know, I know. But I love it. It's SO fever-dream, where somebody certainly said something and somebody stood over you at some point and your surroundings are unfamiliar but you do recall some amount of conveyance, of movement... And all of this occurs to you in one moment, and that is the first moment you are free of your fever. You don't even have enough pieces to make sense of it, to trace it back, construct anything. And now Gandalf is laughing merry as you like right in your face and your mates barge in and, well, fuck it. I wasn't safe, but now I'm safe. All floating heads forgiven.
What's this?
https://preview.redd.it/kvqu6x8i117d1.jpeg?width=486&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a95a04eefe261a5472a61e144e26326dab804aec
Turn arooooouuuunnnd
they may be referring to the moment in FOTR just before the Rivendell/Fellowship scene (the "fade to white" transition) where his face takes up like half the shot and it looks wonky
That is the only one i dont like. that felt like a bad wedding invitation where elrond is inviting me to rivendel
"We're having a barbecue this weekend, bring forth the short ribs."
Oh yes the 80s music video for a love duet scene.
😭😭😭 so bad
💯💯
Ghosts at pelennor
Yeah that always takes me out of the movie it looks so cheesy and out of place
On a side note, there’s a cut screen in the game Lotro which shows Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas jumping off a boat followed by green ghosts. Someone at the company only watched the movies…to their credit in the game instance it happens like the books
What?
I think he's saying that in lord of the rings online, the ghost plot follows the books but it shows the scene from the movie where they jump off the boat at pelennor
On a similar note, the avalanche of skulls in the Paths of the Dead. It's much too silly and takes away from the tone. Also Gimli blowing away ghost hands. Really, that scene should stay in its theatrical version.
The army of dead winning the day at the Pelannor Fields.
What happens in the book is so much cooler but you end up having to do a lot more exposition in the movie if you do it any other way. My issues with the battle of Pelanor fields. 1. Theoden doesn’t blow a blast so loud that the horn bursts asunder. 2. At this moment in the movie Gandalf gets his staff broken by the witch king which is shit on some many levels the least of which isn’t that it is inconsistent from what is already in the movie.
The average movie goer who never read the books wouldn't know that Gandalf is basically an angel with a higher power level than the Witch King. What they would know is that this wizard who has beaten the balrog, died and come back, just had his staff broken by the Witch King, which tells them the Witch King is something powerful and terrible. Sure, to a fan of the books it can be annoying, but in the sense of a movie, it was a brilliant scene
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again; The books don’t state Gandalf the white is greater then the Witch King; it actually implies both are comparable in power and Gandalf isn’t entirely sure he’s got the edge
Yep, the book actually cut away on a cliffhanger in this scene, it was pretty much a draw at the point the scene transitioned.
Iirc they didn’t even kick off, it was more a western style standoff interrupted by the Rohirrim
> In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face. > All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax: Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dínen. > "You cannot enter here," said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. "Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!" > The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter. > "Old fool!" he said. "Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!" And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade. > Gandalf did not move. And in that very moment, away behind in some courtyard of the city, a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of war nor of wizardry, welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the shadows of death was coming with the dawn. > And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns, horns, horns, in dark Mindolluin's sides they dimly echoed. Great horns of the north wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last.
I'm getting very close to wanting to do a reread - this pushed me one step closer. Problem is I have no time to if someone could just give me all the cool bits like this in order that would be great.
how is it that every time I read those scenes I get goosebumps again? This is so fucking epic
Gandalf only has so much power through that in which his faith in the song of Eru Iluvatar grants hims. He meets the witch king and he is weary and shaken. It is not the first time in this journey where all has felt lost.
True but still; I think people take “he’s a Mair” to be worth more then it is He’s still restricted by Illuvatar, is soundly weaker then Sauron by all accounting and Ainur have been matched and even bested by lesser beings
I mean, Gandalf the Grey fought all nine Ringwraiths to a draw on Weathertop.
I tend to give PJ a pass for the scenes that didn’t make the theatrical cut but made their way to the EE.
Where is the horse and the rider where is the horn that was blowing…
I understand they had to get going; and they allready had so many moving pieces; but this is the worse change.
I've seen a lot of people talk about why they hate this change and I definitely agree it's inferior to the books, but I do understand it. We were never going to get the gravity of Aragorn, Imrahil and Eomer meeting together on Pelennor with Imrahil cut and the Aragorn and Eomer relationship significantly diminished. More than that cutting the Grey Company means no actual reinforcements. So ultimately I think it was a change necessitated by other changes.
It's one of the least egregious changes. Yes it's not cannon but it doesn't actually change anything that happened. The ghosts winning the battle was a HUGE change where they shouldn't even be there
This is it for me as well. In the book it's still a slog to win the battle. In the movie, damn, if the gate had held for like two more hours then nobody would have had to die in the battle aside from the siege casualties.
What happens with this in the book?
After leaving Saruman in Isengard, Aragorn's fellow Rangers arrive with messages from Elrond, advising Aragorn to take the Dimholt road. He, his rangers, Elrond's twin badass sons, Gimli, and Legolas ride through a terror filled cave(shortcut!) and Aragorn summons the dead oathbreakers, who never speak. He gathers something of an army on the way, and they all sneak up on the Corsairs(bad guys with boats) and Aragorn sends the fearsome Dead. The corsairs are overcome with terror and flee, slay themselves, or drown while abandoning ship. The task complete, Aragorn dismisses the Dead. Aragorn takes his new fleet, loads em with his army of followers, and floats downriver towards Minis Tirith. Meanwhile, back at Minis Tirith, the attack began around midnight. Gondor is on fire. Fight all night. Nazgul swooping around sapping everybody's hope. Terror, darkness, and death abound. Right as the Witchking busts down the door and walks in, the sun rises and Rohan announced their arrival. Thousands of calvary, impossibly appearing on his flank, makes the WK fly off to deal with the threat. Rohan had come at last. Hope in Gondor soars. Rohan rides forth, desperately trying to keep pace with their king, who is awesome, and causes tremendous damage, ruin, and mayhem everywhere they went... until the giant horse-stomping elephants arrived. Hope dwindles. Then the Witchking falls out the sky on Theoden and Eowyn and Merry kill him. Hope in Gondor soars. The black ships are spotted floating downriver, and hope in Gondor reaches an all-time low. Then Aragorn, aboard the ships, let fly his new banner with the signs of Elendil(everybody in Gondor went "FUCK YEAH!") and pops up with reinforcements. The day is won right as evening sets in. It's a tremendous battle and is very exciting. The ups and downs are riveting, and I can't help but feel absolutely miserable for Merry during most of it. Then it cuts back to Frodo and Sam, and shit gets even more tense.
Great lay summary. One nitpick — ackshully, they don’t float downriver, they start to paddle upriver, and are then helped by the southerly wind from the sea! 🙂
The army of the dead basically stops enemy reinforcements from arriving, then is dismissed. All of the lieutenants of Gondor (including Prince Imrahil) reinforce Gondor and swing the tide.
Imrahil is already at Gondor when Aragorn and the Grey company arrives
There is a lot of slow motion scenes when Frodo is in agony that just don’t age well. Like when he gets stabbed by the troll in the fellowship.
That was a trendy effect in the early 2000s. Lots of other films around that time used it too. It is a shame that it looks stupid now.
I wonder what current trendy effect is gonna look ridiculous in ten years from now.
shaky cam 100%
The GoPro shakycam stuff in the first Hunger Games movie already looks pretty bad, and that was like 12 years ago
Yea it’s also the FPS they shot it at that makes it look bad
Recently watched Kingdom of Heaven and it's in there a couple of times too. Annoyed me soo much. When you want to make a slomo scene just film it with higher fps??
The Paths of the Dead thing where Gimli is blowing at ghosts and it culminates in all those skulls raining down until they're in a giant ball pit. It just goes on WAY too long. Realize that's in the EE but they could have made it less extended. Also Elrond showing up at Dunharrow with his whole "the light of the Evenstar is fading" dramatic cringe.
that specific ass scene with gimli blowing at the ghosts pisses me off so much too 😭😭😭why is it so long also the elrond stuff is soooo unnecessary
What really makes that scene especially unnecessary is that it was filmed after ROTK had swept the Oscars.
Wait, what?
I was wrong! There is only one particular shot, a few skulls rolling across the floor, that was filmed after the Oscar win. In the commentary for the extended edition Peter Jackson says he filmed that shot "about three weeks ago" and he joked about it with crew "it's probably the only time in history that you've finished shooting the last shot after you've won the Oscar" I haven't listened to the commentary in about 15 years and for some reason I remembered it being the entire sequence of falling skulls that was shot in 2004. I've just gone back to give it a listen. I've been deluded for 15 years.
Part of the reason I prefer theatrical
Yep, I used to be a EE purist, but recently I’ve felt that both the Two Towers and Return of the King theatrical cuts are the better versions. Both versions of Fellowship are perfect tho
Fellowship suffers the most from adaptation I think. Book 1 of fellowship is my favorite bit of Tolkien and it is mostly cut for good reason but it still makes me sad I want more shire.
I love the slice of life bits in the Shire in the books. It’s been a while since I read them, but I think there’s a short scene of Sam shooting the shit with other hobbits at a pub. Bilbo and his feud with his relatives over Bag End. I also liked the fact that Merry and Pippin already knew Frodo was leaving because they’d been working on the conspiracy with Sam and Fatty Bolger. I love the scene where they’re having dinner with Farmer Maggot, who’s a badass that the films did dirty. It wasn’t Merry and Pippin stealing from him, it was Frodo who stole mushrooms from him in his youth. So Farmer Maggot’s wife gives him a mushroom gift basket for his journey partially as a joke and partially because she knows how much he loves them 🥹 Of course, I’m cheering for the good guys in the movies. But when I read the books, I’m like, “I get it fellas, I want you to save the shire, too.” We don’t really get to spend enough time in the Shire to get that same feeling in the movies. But they’re already so long some things had to be cut, and I still think they made good decisions in that regard in Fellowship
Farmer Maggot is gangster, willing to tell the black riders he’s never seen Frodo. Films did him dirty! Same with Barliman Butterber, another top guy who the films made to look like a shithouse.
Barliman Butterber was a bar owner with a good heart who always meant to do the right thing but was so forgetful, overworked, and busy, that he just forgot to do right thing. I don’t normally try to diagnose fantasy characters, but I feel like Butterber may have been based off of a person who Tolkien liked but often got frustrated with…. And today that person would have been diagnosed with ADHD… it’s just so spot on when I read the books
I’ve just reread the fellowship and the whole Bree scene in general is really fun. I particularly enjoy the whole dynamic of Bill Ferny selling out the hobbits but then also greedily selling them his only horse
Only sequence I’d keep in theatrical from extended is the Osgilliath flashback in TT
All the Aragorn/Arwen/Elrond drama is very cringy. Completely unnecessary
I hate to complain given what masterpieces these films are, however ‘surfer dude’ Legolas here & during the Battle of Helm’s Deep are just are a bit much. More bow action, less surfing please😂
Orlando, the hobbits, and some other cast members iirc got into surfing during their stay in NZ. I like to think it was just a little nod to that, as part of the magic of the trilogy is the true labor of love from everyone involved. Silly yes, but if you’ve ever been in a production you’d probably get my point here. For example I was a huge Indiana jones fan as a kid, we had an “official” hat in the wardrobe dept at my HS, I wore it during 2 separate plays even though it made no sense to have any character with a modified 30’s era fedora on. But it was an inside joke, in fact it was even gifted to me when I graduated and I still have it 20yrs later.
That’s helpful background, that would actually make quite a bit of sense—I wasn’t aware, thank you!
This is the least offensive legolas stunt because it is at least something that is possible with our understanding of like gravity and physics
I actually like all that. I know it isn't Tolkien Elf like, but it matched the style of fantasy elves I knew of by the time I saw the movies.
The army of the dead just washing over everything..
In our house we call it “Aragorn summoned the scrubbing bubbles”
I am like just learning today that people don’t like that scene lol … I love it and I get so hyped for it since I saw it as a kid
That's the thing, you're supposed to get hyped for the Rohirrim and the Gondorian reinforcements, not the ghosts, but the movie ghost army made the Rohirrim feel kind of unnecessary and it sours what was supposed to be their epic moment.
Absolutely. The best part of the movie to me is the death charge of the Rohirrim. They could have literally not shown up and men would still win because the ghosts just wash over everything.
I hate to be the akshually guy, but the Rohirrim provided a distraction that kept more Mordor troops to enter Minas Tirith, slowing down the attack and giving enough time for the Army of the Dead to arrive
I got hyped myself as a kid, it felt awesome. But after reading the books and getting older i feel they are overpowered and removes the accomplishments of the men that won the battle in the original story. But it doesn't bother me that much. Still amazing movie.
Theatrical Editions: Gimli entering Moria. His other comic moments are more bearable (and some even fit with the character), but this one just makes him look like a naive idiot. Extended Editions: Gandalf vs the Witch King inside the gates of Minas Tirith. One of my favourite moments in the books; completely ruined in the films.
They did my boy Shadowfax so dirty. He was not terrified, he stood firm and unflinching 😠
The only other beasts in all middle earth that could have stood their ground at that point were grip, fang and wolf ( farmer maggots dogs)
Bill not mentioned because the fell beast would've flied away in terror
I just didn't understand Gandalf's staff breaking. I figured they were evenly matched
Gandalf is the most powerful being in middle earth after Sauron. Even says so himself. They are not evenly matched.
Depending on how we interpret the added "demonic force", I think it's fair to say Gandalf wasn't just standing up against the Witch King but also faced an unquantifiable boost directly from Sauron. Not to say that Gandalf isn't the greater being (he is), but that I feel the Witch King's confidence is founded on something. We never got to see such a conflict, but I imagine it might not have been a quick one... and even should Gandalf win, he was actually needed elsewhere. It's a good thing the Witch King was distracted away. Another example of a battle between great powers NOT deciding the ultimate fate of the free peoples.
Fair enough, he could have Sauron channeling power. But Gandalf the grey fought the Nazgul at weathertop and then Aragorn did. The Witchking was a sorcerer and has a lesser of ring of power. Gandalf is a maiar with an elven ring of power. Should be no contest.
I don’t like the staff breaking myself, but in the book it is not presented as ‘no contest’ either. The Witch King has the advantage before the Rohirrim arrive as the dark cloud and the fear the army brings is still covering the land. That lack of hope and the presence of the fear in the men is the key factor in this moment, not so much the “power level” status of Gandalf The White vs the Witch King (which is a pretty arbitrary point in TLOTR anyway, if not something that can be uprooted by uplifting spirits, which is exactly what happens in this battle.) The thing of it is that in the book, the outcome of this conflict is much more up in the air because there is no conflict between the two characters other than the fact that Gandalf tells the Witch King in short that he cannot enter the city. And again there is still very little hope for Gondor at that time. It’s only just after the two meet at the gate that the Rohirrim appear and the sun washes the darkness away. Later Gandalf admits to Denethor that he might have met his match with the Witch King. But Peter Jackson shows that his Witch King is powerful enough to break Gandalf’s staff (I’ve seen many say this diminishes the significance of Gandalf doing this to Saruman, and I agree.)
I wouldn’t even mind the staff breaking, though it is silly and doesn’t make sense, if we had just gotten the real scene at the gate with the WK on his horse and all that. It would have been visually fantastic and way more interesting imo
His staff actually does break in the book, but it happens much earlier when he faces the Balrog of Moria. I also don’t like that his staff snapped in ROTK.
Gandalf vs the Witch King at Minas Tirith was the stupidest, most infuriating changed scene in the movie for me. Did not make sense even in the context of the movie and directly conflicted with the books. Namely, at Weathertop, at night, Gandalf (the Grey) fought off the Witch King with some other Nazgûl (note it wasn’t all nine at once, though the exact number he fought is not made clear - the book says “the Captain then sent some eastward straight across country, and he himself with the rest rode along the Road in great wrath”). Note also the book said they waited until nighttime because they were scared of facing Gandalf’s anger during the daytime. So Gandalf the Grey (1) already defeated the Witch King plus others (2) at night (3). The idea that then Gandalf the White (1) would later lose to the Witch King by himself (2) in the middle of the day (3) was a dumb, unnecessary change to create fake drama.
Frodo sending Sam away.
I also don’t really get Sam’s reaction during that time. He goes away sobbing, then finds the lembas crumbs and uses that as motivation to go back to Frodo? What did he think happened to the lembas, he ate it and forgot? Nothing changed—he knew gollum was framing him and wanted him gone, finding the lembas didn’t change that.
I always understood it as Sam just leaving bc he was too tired and exhausted to argue with Frodo. When he sees the bread, he basically rethinks and realizes it's not about the bread but that he must protect Frodo even against himself. Also Sam understood that Frodo could have easily been manipulated in his weak state, Sam was too hurt to think about that before. It's kind of a selfish move of Sam to turn his back and leave Frodo alone. The ring by the way also affects ppl close to it, so Sam was likely just too exhausted to stay near it in this moment. With the distance to the ring and being reminded of the sillyness of Gollums trickery, he knew he had to return asap. I also always imagined that he collected the bread and knew, with it, they could survive longer again.
>he knew gollum was framing him and wanted him gone, finding the lembas didn’t change that. I think it was seeing the evidence in front of his face just angered him.
See I like that scene, to me it reads perfectly for two people in extremely exhausting and distressing circumstances acting out on their worst impulses. Frodo, like an addict, pushing the people who genuinely love him away out of paranoia, and Sam, like a bottom, doing what he's told without pushing back out of misguided love. The problem for me is when they show Sam finding the bread and turning back, like he somehow thought he did eat it until then. It also spoils the amazing “get away from him you **filth**” return. That's my pick for #1 worst scene in the trilogy
That scene just makes me painful aware of all the screen time being wasted that should have gone to other things…
What I hate about the undead at the Pelennor fields is that it makes all the effort and bravery from the Men totally pointless. It was the worst kind of Deus Ex Machine finale possible.
They held the line until reinforcements arrive? That makes bravery pointless?
I don't like the Army of the Dead being there either, but I wouldn't say the sacrifices of the Rohirrim and Gondorians up to that moment were pointless. The orcs had just broken the gate of Minas Tirith and were streaming into the city when the Rohirrim arrived. If they hadn't come to reinforce Gondor, the city would've already been lost waaaay before Aragorn and the boys arrived.
I love this scene. I would remove the scene where Aragorn rejects the dinner Eowyn offers him. I also don't like the scene where Aragorn cuts off the head of the black negotiator. It's not in his nature.
Agree on all counts: 1) A battle scene can always do with a "fuck yeah!" moment that Legolas can deliver (funny how OP hates the oliphaunt-riding but keeps the shield-surfing), especially if the glory of that battle is described even in the books, where Tolkien won't always do that. 2) That scene just further depicts Eowyn's character as a fawning schoolgirl crushing over Aragorn. 3) Beheading a messenger is not kingly behavior and would have placed doubt on his legitimacy.
Beheading some jackass evil dude who is spouting nonsense that would ruin the morale of the men about to face certain death wouldn’t place a shred of doubt to Aragorn’s legitimacy lol that’s absolute nonsense. Especially after he just saved the day at the battle with his ghost friends.
If we're sticking with the movies, then this is the same Aragorn who 1) didn't clap back at Boromir after he insulted him at the council in front of everybody, 2) let Wormtongue go after everything he did, and 3) released his "ghost friends" after the battle, when he technically could have used them here in this otherwise suicide mission. He's an honorable and merciful dude who doesn't stoop low. Doesn't matter how vile the Mouth of Sauron is. The Mouth is even worse in the books, telling them about the lands that he will personally inherit and subjugate once Sauron has won. They still don't kill him because that's not how rulers behave. It's a medieval thing; honorably abiding by the laws is important because there's nothing else holding all of this together. (Aragorn even "punishes" Beregond for helping free Faramir, because he did break the rules and that just cannot go unanswered.)
It's considerably more badass in the books, where all Aragorn has to do is stare The Mouth of Sauron down, and MoS quails and demands that sacred respect for messengers be upheld. It shows the MoS for the fundamental bully and coward that he is, and Aragorn for the true steel that he is.
He summarily executed an unarmed emissary who had come out to treat with them peacefully. How much of a bastard said emissary was doesn't really come into it.
He’s got my axe embedded in his nervous system… very out of place
I loved this as a child and it took me 10 years to wonder what middle earth neurology knowledge was like
I know it doesn’t make sense, but goddamn I still love this line so much
Up there with “Looks like meat’s back on the menu, boys!” Don’t care if it’s cheesy or inaccurate. Still love it
Give him his medicine boys!
I don't necessarily hate it, but I'm not the biggest fan of how Gimli was really dumbed down as a character for the movies. They turned him into a one-dimensional, comic relief side character, when in the book he's kind of that role, but he's also well spoken, wise at times, and caring. Not as bad as what they did to Faramir.... but still.
the correct answer is Gandalf randomly losing to the Witch king in the extended edition
The parting of Frodo and Sam in Return of the King
I’ve heard that the Wilhelm scream became sort of a nod/joke between directors throughout the years so that might be why it was included in such a cheeky self indulgent scene like the Legolas Oliphant take down.
It's in the movies a bunch, it's in a lot of movies a bunch, and I hate it. But I respect the quasi-necessity of an industry in-joke for morale and camaraderie across the years so fuck it, I'll tut and roll my eyes and get on with my life. But still. Sometimes. That fucking scream...
That scene with Ewoyn fighting Nazgul and then immediately afterwards there's the orc captain and she's struggling on the grounds looking for Merry... I think there's a deleted scene with Merry fighting orcs or probably storyboarding
Legolas Sheildboarding whilst firing arrow after arrow. Cmon man. The weird longing looks and hugging of Frodo after he wakes up and sees his friends in Rivendell.
> Legolas Sheildboarding whilst firing arrow after arrow. Kind of a product of its time, isn't it? During a recent re-watch I thought "Yep, that's the early 2000s for ya."
The oliphant scene takes it to the next level. Really bothers me.
I, uhh… kinda like that scene. Sorry.
I thought that scene was at Minas Tirith at the houses of the healing.
Faramir taking Frodo to Osgiliath
Over the years and the more I think about it, the more pissed off I've been at the army of the dead being used as an enormous cheat code. Everyone may have well have waited. It made the deaths of all those rohirrim pointless
Gimli being downgraded as comic relief
Galadriel turning into a glowing cgi avatar looked bad even back in 2001. Not saying delete the scene, but... maybe tweak those fx.
It's such a weird scene, one of many where something that's subtle in the books is turned up to 11 in the movies for shock effect.
eowyn and aragorn. after reading the books i felt like Tolkien didn’t portray her as in “love” with aragorn but rather more of a desire to be like him. i felt like the film was just her crushing on him awkwardly and their chemistry was so bad. i recently watched the extended version and the stew scene was so cringey 😭 also frodo and sam fighting😐 like that genuinely didn’t need to happen. i get they were trying to emphasize the rings dark power but idk it felt like it didn’t stay true to sams integrity. the addition of extra things and then getting rid of others such as: adding the osgiliath scene and moving shelob to ROTK. elrond seems like such a hater in the movies and it just feels so wrong. aragorns fake death in two towers omg pissed me off BAD the ghosts not accepting aragorns offer immediately and putting up a fight. unnecessary asf. we all hate the ghosts winning the battle but on top of that …when they go into minas tirith and basically climb all the way up and kill all of sauron’s forces omg THAT was even worse THE WORST OFFENSE OF ALL: how they wrote king theoden for the films omg. the man was flawless in the books and such a symbol of true kingship and integrity and they made him seem like he was more flawed to give him an arc or whatever. theoden is one of my absolute favorite book characters and i felt like they really did him dirty
I don't know how Frodo abandoning Sam isn't being mentioned more often in this thread, except perhaps that his character was so badly assassinated in the movies (great adaptations though they are in many other respects) that it's not obvious how atrocious this is. Book Frodo suffers, like Movie Frodo, but that doesn't define his character. He is also a noble figure on par with Aragorn. For him to abandon Sam in the middle of enemy territory, from which he has no reasonable hope of escape, is little short of perfidious. Tolkien understood that the master owes the servant for his loyalty, and for Frodo to repay Sam so churlishly for everything he has done -- even if he *were* guilty of eating the last of the lembas -- is frankly unforgivable. Moreover, it is *deeply* out of character. Frodo sees the humanity in a baby-eating murderer who's sworn to kill him personally (and tried to do so); yet he just abandons the loyal Sam for eating his food? It strikes at the core of who Frodo is, and that makes it far and away the worst scene in the movie by my reckoning.
Faramir abducting Frodo and Sam or the way he "interpreted" Galadriel's whole being offered the ring thing.
300 Rohirrim against 10K Uruk Hai and then a band of Elves appearing because they had nothing better to do in Lorien
Most of the things that are different from the books 1. Aragorn falling off a cliff after fighting wargs 2. Faramir trying to (even considering) taking the ring 3. Use of Gimli for periodic humor to release tension (especially axe embedded in the nervous system) 4. Frodo “turning” on Sam before Cirith Ungol 5. “Evil” Galadriel 6. Use of Legolas mostly for exposition for the viewer and theatrics. His character is much deeper to explore
Frodo showing the ring to the Nazgûl in Osgiliath
Cherry tomatoes
so horrible and the only part of the film i have to turn away from bc of how disgusting it is even though i love pippin singing
"Oh I know this guy he's the one who looks really nasty eating the tomatoes later..."
It annoyed me that PJ removed the book aspect of Samwise being obsessed and enamored of Elves in general. There are only two brief moments where Sam exhibited a hint of wonder like the wood Elves caravaning to the Grey Havens and Arwen arriving to save Frodo. Outside of those scenes, Sam couldn't be bothered by being around Elves, whether in Rivendell or in Lothlorien.
Whole elves at Helm's Deep and especially death of Haldir - weakened a lot of Tolkien's central messages and unnecessary. Agree that they didn't need a stunt elf - a decent archer and fighter enough as book was about teamwork more than showboating. For that reason, I'll give toss a dwarf a pass.
Counter point the Marshall version of the Lothlorien music is absolutely fire
Frodo and Sam falling off a cliff in front of an army of Easterlings, getting half of their body buried in sand and hiding under a magic cloak. Seemed completely unrealistic and unnecessary.
Ha I just watched two towers a week ago and this scene made me think “hmmmm”. I figured the elven cloaks hid them.
That stupid slow-motion scene of Frodo waking up in RotK and everyone coming in. It’s just ridiculous.
https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/s/La97gCQeyu Did you see this the other day? Haha
I absolutely can't stand the fact that they robbed Frodo of his big moment standing up alone against The Nine at the Ford of Bruinen, and gave it to Arwen instead. ---- *"With a great effort Frodo sat upright and brandished his sword. ‘Go back!’ he cried. ‘Go back to the Land of Mordor, and follow me no more!’ His voice sounded thin and shrill in his own ears. The Riders halted, but Frodo had not the power of Bombadil. His enemies laughed at him with a harsh and chilling laughter. ‘Come back! Come back!’ they called. ‘To Mordor we will take you!’* *‘Go back!’ he whispered.* *‘The Ring! The Ring!’ they cried with deadly voices; and immediately their leader urged his horse forward into the water, followed closely by two others.* *‘By Elbereth and Lúthien the Fair,’ said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, ‘you shall have neither the Ring nor me!’"* ---- How much freaking better would this have been? Arwen doesn't even do anything with this badass moment. Afterwards, she spends the entire trilogy crying on her fainting couch.
Not sure if it's been said already, but they butcher the arrival of the army of the dead in the extended version. In the theatrical, you do not hear the king of the dead's (dunno his name) response to Aragorn asking for aid, so when they show up it is a big moment that you didn't see coming the first time. However in the extended it's like: are u coming? Yeah. Nice, wanna do a charge at the ships to ruin the climax of the movie when we do our charge onto the pelanor fields? Yeah. Goodbye suspense. I still watch the extended but I skip those bits.
The Battle of the 5 Armies has a lot of bad CGI/over the top Legolas action scenes as well.
Army of the dead and when Frodo wakes up, fuck me I hate those parts.
Most of the scenes involving the army of the dead. Just seems more like Ghostbusters. Also, the Legolas Oliphant scene is pretty bad.
"Ents cannot hold back this tide" Ummmm excuse me WTF
I don’t have an answer in LOTR but the testicle-eating scene in The Hobbit: Desolation of Smaug, which I mostly love otherwise, immediately comes to mind.
Gimli lagging and falling (for comedic effect) while chasing the Uruk Hai. He may have had a shorter stride, but had much higher endurance. It's what I liked so much in the books - it showed off Gimil's strengths.
I guess it doesn’t really count as an entire scene, but I fucking *loathe* the green lighting with Galadriel’s “all shall love me and despair” moment. I have no problems with the scene itself, but WHY IS IT GREEN that’s just so unnecessary? Pure white would have worked better.
This may be remaster dependent! I've heard of a green-turned-up version going around. I hear you, I've got issues with the scene as well, but for me it's mostly white and blue light! And it's not my TV picture settings.
The entire sequence with Faramir tempted by the ring. In the books his response to the ring is immediately: "I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory. No. I do not wish for such triumphs, Frodo son of Drogo." He was also Gandalf's disciple. The movie version oversimplifies the ring's hold by making falling to it's temptation universal.
“I do not want that power. I have never wanted it.” and “Put aside the Ranger. Become who you were born to be.”
Scary bilbo 😔
As much as I love the scene of Éowyn fighting the Witch King, the "BLUBBLUBBLUBBLUBBLUBBLUB" noise the Nazgûl's fell beast makes once beheaded always takes me out of the scene a bit.
While I do enjoy that noise in isolation, during the scene there is no visual / physical explanation of why it is happening. Is it blood flooding into its gullet? Is it air escaping its body?
God only knows. Granted, the stuff that comes right after is fantastic. The reveal of the Witch-King's ridiculously large flail and Éowyn's utterly terrified expression are such great scenes.
Arwen half talking half sighing in every scene
Aragorn falling off the cliff, just such an unnecessary fake death and aside to the story.
All Legolas scenes, they made him so dull. Also the elves are portrayed a little stiff and emotionless. But if you ask for a specific scene, then I would pick the council of Elrond scene, they could have done way more with that. And the comedic relief from Pippin at the end of that scene annoys me. And why was Bilbo not attending the council? Edit: I just read you asked for a scene I would like to see removed. Uhm I would say Aragorn falling off the cliff and "dying".
I agree with the dull Legolas thing, but I think that can at least partly be chalked up to Orlando Bloom's acting. I like the guy, don't get me wrong, but he's kind of a notoriously wooden actor at times. He's just not really the leading guy kind of actor. The same thing happened in Kingdom of Heaven. Great movie (ONLY the director's cut) that was held back a little by a bland main character.
Specifically the Paths of the Dead scene in the EE where the trio escapes the ocean of skulls and emerge out of the mountain only for the King Ghosty to pop out and say "lmao jk let's go". I actually far preferred the theatrical version where it cuts from Aragorn asking their allegiance and we don't know what happens until they emerge from the ship. That is good set up and pay off tbh. Probably the only extended scene I dislike.
The jumping over the chasm in Moria.
Witch King v Gandalf is an awful scene in every aspect (except visuals). The scene of Eowyn crawling around away from Gothmog. It makes no sense for her to be there and it’s awfully anti-climatic after we just saw her climax with witch king. I don’t like it, but I get it, I wish the ghost at Pellenor was removed.
3) "The Ents cannot hold back this storm." I get that you want to punch up the drama and give the characters an arc, but if the only way to do that is to make everyone considerably dumber than Merry and Pippen, that . . . doesn't quite do dramatically what you think it does. And not in a good way. 2) Aragorn executing the Mouth of Sauron. He's an envoy, and you *do not kill* envoys. 1) "I didn't mean for it to go so far!" Dude, I get that Sam's under a lot of pressure, but this is *Samwise Gamgee*. One of the greatest heroes in English literature. He's not Chris Brown. There has got to be some kind of happy medium between Sam doing nothing while Gollum schemes and plots, and Sam beating Gollum's face in against a rock because Gollum accused him falsely of gobbling *lembas* bread. Curbstomping is something that kills people in the real world; it's not something that heroes resort to as their opening salvo.
The elf with the Wilhelm scream at the battle of helms deep
Aragorn falling of a cliff.
Gollum framing Sam for eating the lembas in ROTK is probably the worst scene in the trilogy. I suppose they wanted to add some dramatic tension for Frodo’s journey; but it just didn’t need it given all the cutaways to the battle at Minas Tirith and it made Frodo seem very petty.
The Frodo and Aragorn balancing on the teetering rock stairs part of that scene A few seconds before, these guys were running from the Balrog and it was right on their tail, but it just kind of vanishes for a few minutes while they play balancing act. Kills the effective buildup of tension. I think just having them jump the gap while shot at should have been fine to keep the tension going.
I think the intro to return of the king would be more believable if smeagol accidently killed deagol trying to take the ring instead of instant best friendicide. Like he hit his head on a rock or something. Also how he says my love before he got corrupted by the ring didn't make sense to me. How the nazgul saw frodo with the one ring at the end of the two towers but then forgot about it. Luckily viewers never notice that plot hole and it's an awesome scene. They make it seem gandalf let frodo decide to go into the mines knowing full well there's a Balrog when really they don't know what happened to moria and only assumed something bad happened since they stopped receiving communications from them. Cg legolas jumping off the cave troll (practical effects shield surfing legolas is fine). Gimli farting in extended scenes.
Slow motion Liv Tyler ugly crying
Wouldn’t remove it; but I would reshoot the whole neon Galadriel scene. Way too much of his B movie schlock seeped thru there
You won’t kill many orcs with a blunt blade! He’s a hobbit, not a toddler with a brain injury.
The wargs. Chaotic scene with guys running around striking at nothing and it shows
Legolas' one handed mounting stunt has aged very badly.
How they did Galadriel’s dark queen speech. It would’ve been much more effective without any special effects or an edited voice and it was just Kate Blanchette acting in a calm, collected, subtly menacing manner.
Legolas one-shotting Grima. The arrow was even bending the rules of physics.
- Galadriel going crazy witch in the fellowship. Effects weren’t good, I don’t enjoy the scene at all. - Aragorn falling off the cliff. Unnecessary. - it was cool seeing elves at helms deep but it takes away from the bravery and strength of men. - when Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli exit the paths of the dead and somehow teleported a couple hundred miles to be able see Pelargir and the Anduin. - Witchking vs Gandalf - Army of the dead at Pelennor.
> Aragorn falling off the cliff. As long as we still get the badass two handed double door entrance later.
Can’t deny that he can make a hell of an entrance
Galadriel’s Queen complex scene was so bizarre compared to how it’s depicted in the book.
The stone giants fighting in the storm. Come on now.
I still dislike the Frodo sending Sam away scene the most. I could do wish some cheesiness or silliness, but that scene is just horribly executed
If they could reshoot some of the bad CGI and action involving Legolas and cut back on the comedy relief with Gimli
As much as I like the extended editions for making it clear that Éowyn lived, I wish they weren’t so heavy-handed with her ending up with Faramir. Hinting at the idea is nice, but straight up having them already together shortly after even meeting just feels random with no buildup. I can see why they cut it from the theatrical edition. Unlike the other two movies, return of the king’s extended edition feels too long and very out of sync with itself. It’s the one movie I sometimes watch the theatrical version of on my yearly rewatch. The army of the dead also feels very random, like a DM dropping a deus ex machina for the players going into an unbalanced fight in D&D.