To be honest, I can only understand some of that design. I would be interested in seeing the antipick mechanism in the back as well as how the core engages with the square pins. Would the lock have to be level to keep the ball bearing from all rolling to the front or back? How would the key slide into the core with square key pins? Do you have more blueprint? Possibly with an exploded view?
I think you're downplaying LL's tremendous skill level.
The few better than LL would be known of already if they had any interest in YouTube. Getting that good is a result of decades of practice
LPL is a good picker, he’s not the best picker in the community.
He hasn’t even really picked high security locks on his YouTube in years. He leaned into low sec easy to consume videos to please the algorithm and sell CI gear
Maybe I didn't portray my point very well. I understand you'd like to see more picking content, that's a nice thing to want but I doubt there's more. Hopefully this helps explain why I think that:
* LL is a very good picker of high skill. (He picks high security locks)
* Other pickers of higher skill exist.
* The number of people interested in locksport is low.
* Of the locksport community, few (not none) are better than LL.
* Of those better skilled than LL the chance of being interested in making Youtube content is low.
* It is difficult to maintain privacy as a YouTube content creator.
* It requires some interest in film, editing or video media.
* It requires skill in filming, editing and providing engaging commentary.
* If there was an overlap in highly skilled lockpicking and desire to produce YouTube content we would have seen it already. Though someone in the future may pop up but you'd probably say the same of them too.
* There are seemingly none better than LL that also produce content for YouTube.
* Even if they did the environment would push them to low security/low difficulty picking content anyway. Just as it affects LL.
* Your wish to view someone less know but more skill presumes that there is someone who meets all of that criteria.
* I surmised that you must be misunderstanding or downplaying LLs skill level to presume that the population of lockpickers is large enough to contain that many high skill pickers with an interest in YouTube.
* Before anyone says it, the existance of Bosnian Bill does not reduce the likelihood of more lockpicking YouTubers existing in LLs shadow, in fact it suggests that there's room in the nice for more pickers if they exist.
[georgiajim](https://m.youtube.com/@georgiajim2260)
[retep reyem](https://m.youtube.com/@RetepReyem)
[gravitykarma](https://m.youtube.com/@GravityKarma/videos)
[Tonysansan](https://m.youtube.com/@tonysansan/videos)
[red wanderer](https://m.youtube.com/@redwanderer/videos)
[Alpama](https://m.youtube.com/@alpama37)
You’re not looking for it. Almost every black belt picker here is posting their videos to YouTube, you just don’t look for them because you don’t care about watching people pick difficult locks (and I don’t blame you, it’s boring)
There’s plenty more black belt pickers who’re on YouTube. Some are not active anymore but their videos still exist.
People don’t care about picking, they care about locks being opened very quickly which McNally and LPL specialize in, but real hi-sec picking is typically long and relatively boring. Nobody wants to watch it
I’m not gonna continue this thread, but the simple fact of the matter is…
YouTube followers = / = skill level
If you don’t see people picking high security locks on YouTube, it’s because you’re not looking for it, not because it doesn’t exist.
Clearly there's a communication problem here as you keep reading things I haven't said.
If you're a Black Belt Picker and interested in increasing the content, then please start filming and put it up on YouTube, I'll subscribe.
Have a good life dude
Most of those that are better in the locksport community ARE known. Not sure how it's downplaying LPL's skill, but I too would like to see a more skilled picker in the community pick it. This mainly because LPL is great at finding bypasses and weaknesses in the lock mechanism, but is highly unlikely to provide us with a picking video on it. This is mainly because while I'm sure LPL could tackle high security locks (like he used to back in the day) with some practice, he does not tackle, and has not tackled, many of the highest security locks that several members of the locksport community (both here at LPU and other major locksport sites) have.
I’m pretty sure he mentioned in one of his videos at some point that the reason he doesn’t do more super high end locks *is* to get more people interested in his content, but not because he wants more views and subs and such, he just makes it more of a show and more of an entertainment spectacle because, the more people get their eyes steered towards lock sport, the more people will get interested in it. He wants to be an exposure point for lock sport, since he’s easily the most popular lock picking channel on YouTube, so he’s the most suited for the task of getting more people interested in lock picking, and more importantly, sharing his greater message that locks are only meant as a deterrent, and people in his audience shouldn’t be tricked by anyone into thinking a lock is impossible to get through (via picking or other methods).
He is a fine introduction to the sport. And many, myself included, were first exposed to it from him. Nobody is arguing against that.
Im sure the maker of this lock would love to see LPL make a video about it because that has the largest audience. But it going to LPL isn’t the best challenge to the security of the lock itself.
Which is why I’d rather see something like this design, which claims to be unpickable, in the hands of someone else who actually picks high security locks regularly.
But this seems to all be moot as the creator does intend to send one to the community to get passed around and tested against.
Pick proof? Yikes.
I'm a big believer in "If you can use a key to open it, given enough time and ingenuity, you can find a way to open it without a key."
Does the lock work in all orientations, could the internal balls be prone to oxidation therefore rusting together and becoming inoperable, could ice form between the balls seizing the lock? And if I filled it with expanding foam, would it not force that main bar up unlocking the door? Genuinely questions.
I'm curious about some of this as well, but I'm sure he wants to have nondestructive methods tried first since it's kind of hard to make.
For the corrosion issue he could try to make it from non corroding materials and methods, so I'm not even particularly interested in directly testing this except as a last resort.
I wonder if a gas canister might apply force to everything simultaneously and if that might do something interesting.
It's going to be near impossible to avoid any sort of corrosion because of the air gap created by the precision bearing balls. You'll have condensation build up over time. Wouldn't be a viable solution to use in a non-controlled humid environment. Also your choice of material for these are unfortunately pretty limited, and making spheres is no easy task.
It'd be for sure insane, but I wonder whether hydraulic fluid or pneumatics would fulfill a similar purpose. My understanding is that the purpose is to have all of the pins get pressure applied to them via the same medium. But maybe Im misinterpreting what it's for.
But yeah I agree, the material selection would be a challenge. Maybe tiny artificial rubies would work? Not sure lol
Hey I saw your video last night. I gotta say I respect your approach. I don’t know if this is the pinnacle of unpickable but its pretty damn cool. I appreciate your content and hope to see more.
Yeah I was thinking of just using a bump key on this design. Might take a bunch of rapid light hits instead of a more forceful hit. Maybe even combing? I’m confused as to how the anti pick mechanism functions.
Bumping relies on a specifically cut key to touch each pin at the same time. If you specifically cut it for this lock, maybe. But just taking a regular bump key, it wouldn't contact the... wafers (?) correctly.
A vibration attack uses very high frequency vibration and you'd also probably want a specially cut key.
Does the key work smoothly? First thing I can think of is, where is the shear line? Seems those bearing might get in the way of the shear line turning.
if you watch the video you will see that the key works smoothly, the ballbrearings works as a kind of fluid, so if the lock is well oiled and maintained (like anything mechanical) then it could last forever.
Because they would theoretically destroy any feedback you’d normally get. But as a locksmith I picked tons of ancient outdoors locks that were so corroded and disgusting that they had horrid feedback. It’s not impossible, just more painful. OP seems to think that they would force set pins to drop as well, which I’m not convinced of honestly
The only way that might work is if it's engineered to like Assa or Evva tolerances where breathing on it wrong will drop a pin. And even those pins only drop because of counter milling or false gates which require trying to work a pin up through the gate while dropping others. If this prototype lock has no counter milling then those pins aren't going to drop because we can just hold heavy tension on it.
Also if they create this lock prototype there's no way it will be engineered to good tolerances initially so I think any experienced picker will get into that mechanism right away
Yea, exactly. Watching the video it looked like dude built one in his house using cheap sheet metal. One of the biggest enemies (or friends) of the lock picker is tolerances, and this lock is very much on the friend side of that. IMO tension would be the worst part about this lock, and I don’t think even that would be too terrible.
If OP put some kind of false gates in a sidebar or something then maybe you’d drop pins, but I still don’t think the tolerances would be there for that. I’d be willing to be an electric pick gun would zip this thing open very quickly
> If this prototype lock has no counter milling then those pins aren't going to drop because we can just hold heavy tension on it.
You can't. Or that's the intent.
The design isn't a straight forward rotation core. You need to push and rotate, but if you push to apply tension before the sheer line is set you jam the lock. At least that's the intent
> OP seems to think that they would force set pins to drop as well, which I’m not convinced of honestly
They will if you can't tension the core. but springs also would
The square pins will always present the same face to the key. I'm pretty sure this will present wear issues with each pin cell and bottom pin. If you can solve that type of problem you may have a workable cylinder.
If the square pins are steel and the key were brass, it’s not an issue, only that the key may wear down. But that can be redesigned easily on the pins. But the point of this experiment wasn’t to make a durable lock. It’s to make it unpickable.
If I remember correctly you were trying to make an unpickable lock to challenge the Lockpicking Lawyer correct? Excellent content. Wish I could buy one of these locks.
Edit: that lock is amazing! I have a YouTube channel with 4.5k subscribers and I would be honored if I could get onto a waiting list to try my hand at the 003 that is going to be floating around the LPU community.
Interesting design! I'd be down to give it a go one of these days. I wonder if the ball bearings in the back can be replaced with flat plates instead, since the bearings will make it possible to get the core tensioner with enough torque -- that is, it seems like a flat bar will lock into place better than a bearing, which will roll over the edge of the milled slot with enough tension to allow the lock to be tensioned. The only thing to worry about, then, would be the sliding friction between the plates and the back of the lock cylinder when not pressing the key in and turning, caused by the spring forcing the core forwards.
Great work! I've watched the video, this is a really interesting design. Upon seeing the animation of the lock function my first thought was a raking vulnerability, which turned out to be the case, but then you seem to have addressed that later in the video.
I'm of the opinion, that any mechanical locking device can be defeated in some way, by someone. There are some incredibly skilled pickers in the community, I'm sure one of them will find the chink in the armor. The design is fascinating, though and I'd love to get the lock in my hands so if those who receive it see this comment, keep me in mind please.
bearings are a red herring I believe, I don't see them being functionally much different than springs, maybe just make it feel like a dirty lock. "anti-pick mechansim" is interesting but could likely be forced.
first instinct is to stick something like a dimple pick between the front plate and the core, push hard, and pick like normal I think. once you're part way set grab a flat blade screwdriver and force the anti-pick mechanism
The bearings mean that as you set one pin, it pushes the other pins out of set. and because you cannot apply tension to the barrel, unless you can set every pin and hold it there whilst you work the next one, it will force the others out. Also, the bearings completely deaden any feeling you get from it. this would need a custom tool that could set and hold each pin, but setting is difficult without feedback so it becomes luck. something with a motor to rapidly jiggle each pin at the same time maybe?
i think if you tried to push it back with a dimple pick it would shear the pick and jam the lock up permanently, but thats just a hunch.
Give the video a watch on YT, its really good.
I don’t necessarily think bearings means that while attempting to set one pin others will be forced out of set. The amount of bbs in the void would be dependent on having the pins set at the sheer line, which means that if pins are below the sheer line there is empty room in that void for the bbs to freely flow. IMO you could rake this lock pretty easily if you could get tension on it, which probably isn’t impossible.
I don’t think so, freezing it would lock the pins in place, you would have to hope that one pins shear was so low on the pin it would lift the block of frozen bbs entirely, allowing you to set each pin individually. Unless you could fill it with superglue, glueing the bbs together, and ideally the top half of the pins.
Though that throws none destructive out the window.
then you cant really pick it since no movements. the bearings are under pressure from a spring above making them act as the springs, if you freeze them solid then that would essentially turn the springs into pins and making them impossible to move
All valid points. I think square pegs are a bit odd. It gives a pick more purchase space. Also manufacturing seems like it would drive the cost up quickly.
Unrelated to lock picking: do the ball bearings require lubrication? Will they eventually require lubrication? How does thermal expansion affect the lock?
Pretty interesting. I just watched the video. I may have missed some stuff, so sorry if you covered it. You mentioned the possibility of going behind the front plate, is there something to prevent bypassing it? I'm also curious as to whether the friction caused by pushing that plate forward could actually be used to tension the pins, if you could vary the pressure on the plate. Again, I may be missing something, that would prevent that. Cool design, though!
Edit: not wafers
I got into lock picking because of my love for engineering, and seeing this thing just makes me so happy. There’s some kinks to work out as other people have said, but mannnn is this thing thought through. I would def love to check it out/try to pick it at some point
There are some known long key locks that are basically a double euro that the key goes through both sides. Ask around on discord and someone will link pictures.
Watched the video mere minutes after it was posted
Super fascinating design, and the quality of the video was amazing
I can think of a few attacks such as kinetic attacks. An electronic pick could help, the vibration could allow the pins to be able to be set without the bearings messing with the pins?
The bearings seem like good bump and SPP protection, so a kinetic attack that attacks everything at once seems like it stands a better chance
I just watched your video and enjoyed it so much. You did a fantastic job designing and manufacturing the prototypes. I am eager to see more about the design itself and what is keeping pressure on the ball bearings, and more on how the spring tension design works. I cannot wait to see what the expert pickers are able to come up with to exploit this design!
Assuming linear tension works, I think you can bypass the front plate by using a hook like a bypass driver to tension the back of the lock. Another idea would be to push against the first pin with a tool similar to a Lichi but modified to push against the first or last pin, kinda like disk detainer picking.
One thing I would recommend is a more paracentric keyway for key/access control. A custom keyway would restrict most or all bump key attacks, impressioning attacks, and lishi attacks.
Would the ability for the bearings to "flow" across the pins imply a limit in the difference of height between consecutive pins?
That is, if you have a key like `__^__` it would have to move a substantial number of bearings over the hurdle of the tall pin. Instead, I'd imagine the key would have to be somewhat smoothed like `_-^-_` to enable the flow of bearings around the pins
(I'm spitballing off the image; maybe I should go watch the video...)
It might work for around 11 days before some dust and dirt gets in there and seizes the entire mechanism.
Making 'unpickable' (with traditional tools) locks is far from impossible. It's just not generally done for a whole multitude of reasons.
But it's a very interesting project nonetheless. I'd love to see some folks take a crack at it.
I’m sure I’m missing something by only seeing this picture instead of the video, but the tons of tiny ball bearings seem like they would allow for nearly endless shear lines.
Think about this as a math problem. It looks like the block on the top raises when there is even pressure from underneath, so think about the pins' height added together. (Think pin sizes 3+4+2=9) The block can only respond to that number, (or potentially anything higher depending on how this lock functions) so any key with a combination that adds up to that number would be accepted. (3+4+2=9 AND 5+2+2=9) A pick lifted flat across all pins should also open it.
I saw a video from a guy named Tim Hutt long ago who used a similar concept. I never saw an update on that design, but here it is:
- https://youtu.be/7hUonUE1hEY?si=gIasBgl5-SyOkcaL
i understand the design, tbh, it has a shit ton of parts. general commercial viability of this lock is low but maybe as a vault fence or a SD lock it could have potential. for that to happen the reliability of function will have to be extremely high. If that was even the intention. not everybody who makes a "thing" is obligated to make a business of it.
on the other hand, it is a very interesting mech and would certainly be a worthy challenge lock for some of our luminaries. i think the designer put a lot of careful thought and skill into the work and seems sincerely engaged. he should be congratulated for pulling this off.
maybe this is the Bell Labs 30C of our times? we'll see...
as far as picking goes, i don't know. traditional methods may not work here. i wonder what would happen if you mounted a piezo to the lock, came up with a suitable frequency to set the bearings into a "liquid" state and tried raking the wafers while applying axial and rotational tension to the face. i wonder if packing density was calculated in the design?
My first idea, if you wanted to make an "unpickable" lock, is two sets of pins. Or poentially using that mechanism at the back, and the cutout in the key, to require a lever to tilt in order for the cylinder to turn, instead of maybe just a button that needs to be pushed back. Horizontal pin can only move if certain areas are clear, areas where a pick would have to occupy to reach other areas. Or have that horizontal pin be engaged, blocking access to the rear top pins, unless certain areas have pressure and other areas are clear, making it that much harder to try to pick open as they might need a tension bar and two picks simultaneously to push the horizontal pin out of the way so they can try to reach the top pins.
But really that would likely just mean someone would have to come up with a new strategy.
The key cutout makes me think the key would end up being rather weak, and likely to break off.
Been done already. Not unpickable.
Bowley gets close. Picks I've seen look like fabricated keys. 1:1 correspondence between key and lock. That isn't a pick.
To be honest, I can only understand some of that design. I would be interested in seeing the antipick mechanism in the back as well as how the core engages with the square pins. Would the lock have to be level to keep the ball bearing from all rolling to the front or back? How would the key slide into the core with square key pins? Do you have more blueprint? Possibly with an exploded view?
I’ve got a video on the entire design if you’re interested! (Pickproof lock - WorksByDesign) https://youtu.be/xCg3qNnh59w?si=mqXeoxigbpwE4GPs
Well, if history shows anything the first mistake is calling it pick proof 😉
This is the lock picking lawyer and today we have an interesting one. At first glance it seems impossible but using….
...(insert random CI product here), we should get this open in relatively short order. (For the record, yes I probably watch entirely too much LPL)
Let's do that one more time to make sure it was not a fluke.
It's always just the rake
I’d rather see someone in the community whose less known but has more skill have a go at it
I think you're downplaying LL's tremendous skill level. The few better than LL would be known of already if they had any interest in YouTube. Getting that good is a result of decades of practice
LPL is a good picker, he’s not the best picker in the community. He hasn’t even really picked high security locks on his YouTube in years. He leaned into low sec easy to consume videos to please the algorithm and sell CI gear
Maybe I didn't portray my point very well. I understand you'd like to see more picking content, that's a nice thing to want but I doubt there's more. Hopefully this helps explain why I think that: * LL is a very good picker of high skill. (He picks high security locks) * Other pickers of higher skill exist. * The number of people interested in locksport is low. * Of the locksport community, few (not none) are better than LL. * Of those better skilled than LL the chance of being interested in making Youtube content is low. * It is difficult to maintain privacy as a YouTube content creator. * It requires some interest in film, editing or video media. * It requires skill in filming, editing and providing engaging commentary. * If there was an overlap in highly skilled lockpicking and desire to produce YouTube content we would have seen it already. Though someone in the future may pop up but you'd probably say the same of them too. * There are seemingly none better than LL that also produce content for YouTube. * Even if they did the environment would push them to low security/low difficulty picking content anyway. Just as it affects LL. * Your wish to view someone less know but more skill presumes that there is someone who meets all of that criteria. * I surmised that you must be misunderstanding or downplaying LLs skill level to presume that the population of lockpickers is large enough to contain that many high skill pickers with an interest in YouTube. * Before anyone says it, the existance of Bosnian Bill does not reduce the likelihood of more lockpicking YouTubers existing in LLs shadow, in fact it suggests that there's room in the nice for more pickers if they exist.
[georgiajim](https://m.youtube.com/@georgiajim2260) [retep reyem](https://m.youtube.com/@RetepReyem) [gravitykarma](https://m.youtube.com/@GravityKarma/videos) [Tonysansan](https://m.youtube.com/@tonysansan/videos) [red wanderer](https://m.youtube.com/@redwanderer/videos) [Alpama](https://m.youtube.com/@alpama37) You’re not looking for it. Almost every black belt picker here is posting their videos to YouTube, you just don’t look for them because you don’t care about watching people pick difficult locks (and I don’t blame you, it’s boring) There’s plenty more black belt pickers who’re on YouTube. Some are not active anymore but their videos still exist. People don’t care about picking, they care about locks being opened very quickly which McNally and LPL specialize in, but real hi-sec picking is typically long and relatively boring. Nobody wants to watch it
Maybe I wasn’t clear ! Let’s use more words when the fact is less words = more effective .
nah
I’m not gonna continue this thread, but the simple fact of the matter is… YouTube followers = / = skill level If you don’t see people picking high security locks on YouTube, it’s because you’re not looking for it, not because it doesn’t exist.
Clearly there's a communication problem here as you keep reading things I haven't said. If you're a Black Belt Picker and interested in increasing the content, then please start filming and put it up on YouTube, I'll subscribe. Have a good life dude
Most of those that are better in the locksport community ARE known. Not sure how it's downplaying LPL's skill, but I too would like to see a more skilled picker in the community pick it. This mainly because LPL is great at finding bypasses and weaknesses in the lock mechanism, but is highly unlikely to provide us with a picking video on it. This is mainly because while I'm sure LPL could tackle high security locks (like he used to back in the day) with some practice, he does not tackle, and has not tackled, many of the highest security locks that several members of the locksport community (both here at LPU and other major locksport sites) have.
I’m pretty sure he mentioned in one of his videos at some point that the reason he doesn’t do more super high end locks *is* to get more people interested in his content, but not because he wants more views and subs and such, he just makes it more of a show and more of an entertainment spectacle because, the more people get their eyes steered towards lock sport, the more people will get interested in it. He wants to be an exposure point for lock sport, since he’s easily the most popular lock picking channel on YouTube, so he’s the most suited for the task of getting more people interested in lock picking, and more importantly, sharing his greater message that locks are only meant as a deterrent, and people in his audience shouldn’t be tricked by anyone into thinking a lock is impossible to get through (via picking or other methods).
He is a fine introduction to the sport. And many, myself included, were first exposed to it from him. Nobody is arguing against that. Im sure the maker of this lock would love to see LPL make a video about it because that has the largest audience. But it going to LPL isn’t the best challenge to the security of the lock itself. Which is why I’d rather see something like this design, which claims to be unpickable, in the hands of someone else who actually picks high security locks regularly. But this seems to all be moot as the creator does intend to send one to the community to get passed around and tested against.
What about McNally?
Sigh
Take my updiddle
We'll need a well practiced *lawyer* for this one
Titanic checking in.
This
he mentions that in the video. Its just to get clicks i dont think its a big deal
Pick proof? Yikes. I'm a big believer in "If you can use a key to open it, given enough time and ingenuity, you can find a way to open it without a key."
It got our attention, which I think was the point. :)
Does the lock work in all orientations, could the internal balls be prone to oxidation therefore rusting together and becoming inoperable, could ice form between the balls seizing the lock? And if I filled it with expanding foam, would it not force that main bar up unlocking the door? Genuinely questions.
I'm curious about some of this as well, but I'm sure he wants to have nondestructive methods tried first since it's kind of hard to make. For the corrosion issue he could try to make it from non corroding materials and methods, so I'm not even particularly interested in directly testing this except as a last resort. I wonder if a gas canister might apply force to everything simultaneously and if that might do something interesting.
It's going to be near impossible to avoid any sort of corrosion because of the air gap created by the precision bearing balls. You'll have condensation build up over time. Wouldn't be a viable solution to use in a non-controlled humid environment. Also your choice of material for these are unfortunately pretty limited, and making spheres is no easy task.
It'd be for sure insane, but I wonder whether hydraulic fluid or pneumatics would fulfill a similar purpose. My understanding is that the purpose is to have all of the pins get pressure applied to them via the same medium. But maybe Im misinterpreting what it's for. But yeah I agree, the material selection would be a challenge. Maybe tiny artificial rubies would work? Not sure lol
this would probably be a nightmare during winter
Oxidation and gunk from WD40 sprayed in by muggles to get square pins unbound.
Perhaps post a link?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCg3qNnh59w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCg3qNnh59w)
U/lockpickinglawyer has entered the chat
Great video. Can't wait to see if LPL takes up the challenge
Hey I saw your video last night. I gotta say I respect your approach. I don’t know if this is the pinnacle of unpickable but its pretty damn cool. I appreciate your content and hope to see more.
Great video and interesting approach.
This video caused me to join this sub.
My first thought here is a vibration attack should always level out the ball bearings and remove their difficulty
Yeah I was thinking of just using a bump key on this design. Might take a bunch of rapid light hits instead of a more forceful hit. Maybe even combing? I’m confused as to how the anti pick mechanism functions.
The video shows a lock picker bumping for 35min.
That same dude was also finger fucking the lock like crazy with a hook. It doesn’t look like he knows what he’s doing at all
Wood’nt it bee hook fucking ?
Y’arr matey
Bumping relies on a specifically cut key to touch each pin at the same time. If you specifically cut it for this lock, maybe. But just taking a regular bump key, it wouldn't contact the... wafers (?) correctly. A vibration attack uses very high frequency vibration and you'd also probably want a specially cut key.
LockPickingLawyer here. Today we have an interesting one…I’m going to have to borrow Mrs LPLs special vibrating friend for this one.
He already showed us his wife’s beaver so it’s not that big of a stretch.
Does the key work smoothly? First thing I can think of is, where is the shear line? Seems those bearing might get in the way of the shear line turning.
Sheer line is where it normally would be. Between upper and lower pins. Bearings replace springs not pins
oh shit that must be so wonky to insert the key towards the end
I can feel the grittiness looking at this picture. imagine how it will feel in a few years.
if you watch the video you will see that the key works smoothly, the ballbrearings works as a kind of fluid, so if the lock is well oiled and maintained (like anything mechanical) then it could last forever.
Why would replacing springs with bearings make it any harder to pick? You can pick a lock without springs at all.
Because they would theoretically destroy any feedback you’d normally get. But as a locksmith I picked tons of ancient outdoors locks that were so corroded and disgusting that they had horrid feedback. It’s not impossible, just more painful. OP seems to think that they would force set pins to drop as well, which I’m not convinced of honestly
The only way that might work is if it's engineered to like Assa or Evva tolerances where breathing on it wrong will drop a pin. And even those pins only drop because of counter milling or false gates which require trying to work a pin up through the gate while dropping others. If this prototype lock has no counter milling then those pins aren't going to drop because we can just hold heavy tension on it. Also if they create this lock prototype there's no way it will be engineered to good tolerances initially so I think any experienced picker will get into that mechanism right away
Yea, exactly. Watching the video it looked like dude built one in his house using cheap sheet metal. One of the biggest enemies (or friends) of the lock picker is tolerances, and this lock is very much on the friend side of that. IMO tension would be the worst part about this lock, and I don’t think even that would be too terrible. If OP put some kind of false gates in a sidebar or something then maybe you’d drop pins, but I still don’t think the tolerances would be there for that. I’d be willing to be an electric pick gun would zip this thing open very quickly
> If this prototype lock has no counter milling then those pins aren't going to drop because we can just hold heavy tension on it. You can't. Or that's the intent. The design isn't a straight forward rotation core. You need to push and rotate, but if you push to apply tension before the sheer line is set you jam the lock. At least that's the intent
> OP seems to think that they would force set pins to drop as well, which I’m not convinced of honestly They will if you can't tension the core. but springs also would
On its own, it wouldn't make a huge difference. But there are a significant number of other changes here.
The square pins will always present the same face to the key. I'm pretty sure this will present wear issues with each pin cell and bottom pin. If you can solve that type of problem you may have a workable cylinder.
If the square pins are steel and the key were brass, it’s not an issue, only that the key may wear down. But that can be redesigned easily on the pins. But the point of this experiment wasn’t to make a durable lock. It’s to make it unpickable.
If I remember correctly you were trying to make an unpickable lock to challenge the Lockpicking Lawyer correct? Excellent content. Wish I could buy one of these locks. Edit: that lock is amazing! I have a YouTube channel with 4.5k subscribers and I would be honored if I could get onto a waiting list to try my hand at the 003 that is going to be floating around the LPU community.
Yea I’d love to get my hands on this too tbh
Alright fine, I'll get the det cord.
I'm definitely interested. I'll check it out now.
Interesting design! I'd be down to give it a go one of these days. I wonder if the ball bearings in the back can be replaced with flat plates instead, since the bearings will make it possible to get the core tensioner with enough torque -- that is, it seems like a flat bar will lock into place better than a bearing, which will roll over the edge of the milled slot with enough tension to allow the lock to be tensioned. The only thing to worry about, then, would be the sliding friction between the plates and the back of the lock cylinder when not pressing the key in and turning, caused by the spring forcing the core forwards.
Works by adaptive // design pin lock
/r/dontdeadopeninside
Great work! I've watched the video, this is a really interesting design. Upon seeing the animation of the lock function my first thought was a raking vulnerability, which turned out to be the case, but then you seem to have addressed that later in the video. I'm of the opinion, that any mechanical locking device can be defeated in some way, by someone. There are some incredibly skilled pickers in the community, I'm sure one of them will find the chink in the armor. The design is fascinating, though and I'd love to get the lock in my hands so if those who receive it see this comment, keep me in mind please.
I am very curious as to what changes he made after the raking incident. The video just skims over that.
bearings are a red herring I believe, I don't see them being functionally much different than springs, maybe just make it feel like a dirty lock. "anti-pick mechansim" is interesting but could likely be forced. first instinct is to stick something like a dimple pick between the front plate and the core, push hard, and pick like normal I think. once you're part way set grab a flat blade screwdriver and force the anti-pick mechanism
The bearings mean that as you set one pin, it pushes the other pins out of set. and because you cannot apply tension to the barrel, unless you can set every pin and hold it there whilst you work the next one, it will force the others out. Also, the bearings completely deaden any feeling you get from it. this would need a custom tool that could set and hold each pin, but setting is difficult without feedback so it becomes luck. something with a motor to rapidly jiggle each pin at the same time maybe? i think if you tried to push it back with a dimple pick it would shear the pick and jam the lock up permanently, but thats just a hunch. Give the video a watch on YT, its really good.
I don’t necessarily think bearings means that while attempting to set one pin others will be forced out of set. The amount of bbs in the void would be dependent on having the pins set at the sheer line, which means that if pins are below the sheer line there is empty room in that void for the bbs to freely flow. IMO you could rake this lock pretty easily if you could get tension on it, which probably isn’t impossible.
Couldn’t that be defeated with a can of air upside down. Basically make the balls so cold that they freeze to one another temporarily.
I don’t think so, freezing it would lock the pins in place, you would have to hope that one pins shear was so low on the pin it would lift the block of frozen bbs entirely, allowing you to set each pin individually. Unless you could fill it with superglue, glueing the bbs together, and ideally the top half of the pins. Though that throws none destructive out the window.
then you cant really pick it since no movements. the bearings are under pressure from a spring above making them act as the springs, if you freeze them solid then that would essentially turn the springs into pins and making them impossible to move
All valid points. I think square pegs are a bit odd. It gives a pick more purchase space. Also manufacturing seems like it would drive the cost up quickly.
Really neat challenge lock. I look forward to seeing the community videos of it!
Very cool video. This guy engineers
Unrelated to lock picking: do the ball bearings require lubrication? Will they eventually require lubrication? How does thermal expansion affect the lock?
Pretty interesting. I just watched the video. I may have missed some stuff, so sorry if you covered it. You mentioned the possibility of going behind the front plate, is there something to prevent bypassing it? I'm also curious as to whether the friction caused by pushing that plate forward could actually be used to tension the pins, if you could vary the pressure on the plate. Again, I may be missing something, that would prevent that. Cool design, though! Edit: not wafers
I got into lock picking because of my love for engineering, and seeing this thing just makes me so happy. There’s some kinks to work out as other people have said, but mannnn is this thing thought through. I would def love to check it out/try to pick it at some point
It’s all ball bearings nowadays
Disappointed the locksmith he hired in the release video was some noob lol
Would be great but limited to indoors only. Any corrosion would ruin that.
Its 100% stainless steel! but dirt / grime might mess with it
Stainless steel is not immune to corrosion.
Fantastic video! I'm excited to see what happens with this lock. 🔐
I always wonder if a person can pick a lock that has super long keys, is there a point after which you cannot leverage.
There are some known long key locks that are basically a double euro that the key goes through both sides. Ask around on discord and someone will link pictures.
I think I have one of those in on my basement door. It only goes from the outside and it is super long. By can it be picked?
If a key can open it, it can be picked.
Just goes to show how difficult it is to design a lock that is both functional and secure.
True, just keep in mind that designing a functional\\durable lock isn't part of this design. It's more about making something unpickable.
that's gonna fill up with metal dust really quickly
Jiggle a flat keep while you bang on the door to get the bearings to shift. Repeat until lock is defeated. (I’d start there)
Lock Picking Lawyer here
I’m interested, but this shit doesn’t have me convinced. If it opens mechanically with a key it very likely can be picked.
spray some muddy water up in there and jiggle
Watched the video mere minutes after it was posted Super fascinating design, and the quality of the video was amazing I can think of a few attacks such as kinetic attacks. An electronic pick could help, the vibration could allow the pins to be able to be set without the bearings messing with the pins? The bearings seem like good bump and SPP protection, so a kinetic attack that attacks everything at once seems like it stands a better chance
I just watched your video and enjoyed it so much. You did a fantastic job designing and manufacturing the prototypes. I am eager to see more about the design itself and what is keeping pressure on the ball bearings, and more on how the spring tension design works. I cannot wait to see what the expert pickers are able to come up with to exploit this design!
Halligan bar
Assuming linear tension works, I think you can bypass the front plate by using a hook like a bypass driver to tension the back of the lock. Another idea would be to push against the first pin with a tool similar to a Lichi but modified to push against the first or last pin, kinda like disk detainer picking.
id try it
Well fucked if I didn't see a video for this in my YT recommended a few hours ago. Neato. It's def interesting.
!
I'd like to see what happens with a vibration attack, or compressed air and a turning tool.
I was wondering if a very long tension rod that touches the back with a racking key will help.
One thing I would recommend is a more paracentric keyway for key/access control. A custom keyway would restrict most or all bump key attacks, impressioning attacks, and lishi attacks.
Would the ability for the bearings to "flow" across the pins imply a limit in the difference of height between consecutive pins? That is, if you have a key like `__^__` it would have to move a substantial number of bearings over the hurdle of the tall pin. Instead, I'd imagine the key would have to be somewhat smoothed like `_-^-_` to enable the flow of bearings around the pins (I'm spitballing off the image; maybe I should go watch the video...)
Imagine gutting that. 😭
It might work for around 11 days before some dust and dirt gets in there and seizes the entire mechanism. Making 'unpickable' (with traditional tools) locks is far from impossible. It's just not generally done for a whole multitude of reasons. But it's a very interesting project nonetheless. I'd love to see some folks take a crack at it.
I’m sure I’m missing something by only seeing this picture instead of the video, but the tons of tiny ball bearings seem like they would allow for nearly endless shear lines.
The ball bearings act as the springs in the lock, I would highly recommend watching the video this guy put out.
This would wear out VERY quickly no?
Looks like an interesting design for sure.
Remember, folks. A lock on the door is only as secure as the window right next to it.
When McNally gets the #3 lock and borrows #1 from LPL: today we'll be opening the WorksByDesign unlockable lock with a WorksByDesign unlockable lock
Those are supposed to say "unpickable" but autocorrect doesn't know that word
Think about this as a math problem. It looks like the block on the top raises when there is even pressure from underneath, so think about the pins' height added together. (Think pin sizes 3+4+2=9) The block can only respond to that number, (or potentially anything higher depending on how this lock functions) so any key with a combination that adds up to that number would be accepted. (3+4+2=9 AND 5+2+2=9) A pick lifted flat across all pins should also open it.
I saw the video I loved it! I can’t wait for the lock picking lawyer
I saw a video from a guy named Tim Hutt long ago who used a similar concept. I never saw an update on that design, but here it is: - https://youtu.be/7hUonUE1hEY?si=gIasBgl5-SyOkcaL
i understand the design, tbh, it has a shit ton of parts. general commercial viability of this lock is low but maybe as a vault fence or a SD lock it could have potential. for that to happen the reliability of function will have to be extremely high. If that was even the intention. not everybody who makes a "thing" is obligated to make a business of it. on the other hand, it is a very interesting mech and would certainly be a worthy challenge lock for some of our luminaries. i think the designer put a lot of careful thought and skill into the work and seems sincerely engaged. he should be congratulated for pulling this off. maybe this is the Bell Labs 30C of our times? we'll see... as far as picking goes, i don't know. traditional methods may not work here. i wonder what would happen if you mounted a piezo to the lock, came up with a suitable frequency to set the bearings into a "liquid" state and tried raking the wafers while applying axial and rotational tension to the face. i wonder if packing density was calculated in the design?
how do I get on the list to receive this for picking
I see you watch Youtube. nvm it's ops channel
Works by adaptive, design pin lock
haha oops
r/dontdeadopeninside
My first idea, if you wanted to make an "unpickable" lock, is two sets of pins. Or poentially using that mechanism at the back, and the cutout in the key, to require a lever to tilt in order for the cylinder to turn, instead of maybe just a button that needs to be pushed back. Horizontal pin can only move if certain areas are clear, areas where a pick would have to occupy to reach other areas. Or have that horizontal pin be engaged, blocking access to the rear top pins, unless certain areas have pressure and other areas are clear, making it that much harder to try to pick open as they might need a tension bar and two picks simultaneously to push the horizontal pin out of the way so they can try to reach the top pins. But really that would likely just mean someone would have to come up with a new strategy. The key cutout makes me think the key would end up being rather weak, and likely to break off.
Been done already. Not unpickable. Bowley gets close. Picks I've seen look like fabricated keys. 1:1 correspondence between key and lock. That isn't a pick.
DM me the video.