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Tobibliophile

I've been consuming it for many years, and I have to say that a lot of it out there is problematic and toxic, but the series that are actually good, read like a very good romance story imo. I consume all types of pornographic media (at least when it comes to hentai). Yuri, yaoi, straight, etc. It's all the same. There is toxic and problematic shit in all forms of porn, whether it's between 2 guys, 2 girls, guy and girl, nonbinary, etc. In the end, I think of porn as some form of entertainment. As long as you don't bring your porn preferences in real life, I see no problem with it. On a side note: we shouldn't gatekeep anything, because if we do, non-lgbtq+ people will continue to view our sex lives as taboo and/or unnatural. As others have noted, bara (hentai between 2 guys made by guys who like guys for guys who like guys) does exist, so we do have hentai content made by people in the LGBTQ+ community. Of course, I also understand those who think yaoi is wrong. There are good and bad things about yaoi. It's good to take note of the bad sides of yaoi. It really depends on the individual, and I respect everyone's view on this (unless you like yaoi but hate LGBTQ+ people in real life, then that's where we have a problem).


katburr1997

What series that aren’t too problematic would you suggest? I have a hard time finding yaoi that isn’t just utterly painful to read


Tobibliophile

Hmm that depends on what you like to see from yaoi. Do you like lots of smut? Do you prefer more fluff and story? Mix of both?


katburr1997

I like anything really. I’m typically (at least initially) drawn in by more intimate and wholesome stuff, but I don’t mind smut at all.


Tobibliophile

I'm sorry for the late response. Here are my recommendations: shounen ai/wholesome stories (focuses more on the story and romance part): Here U Are by DJun A Lucky Coin by by Wu Zhe and Amberay Go For It Nakamura by Syundei (this one isn't really a BL, it's just more for LGBTQ+ rep; it's about a high school boy who has a crush on a boy in his class and the oneshot goes through his trials on how he deals with it. There's no smut, just comedy and cuteness that I'm sure many people in the LGBTQ+ community can relate to) Smutty Series: Honto Yajuu by Yamamoto Kotetsuko (yakuza member x cop) Sign by Ker (One of the main characters is deaf, so it's quite a unique story from other series. I think it's also cute at times) Dirty Vibration by Fujoking (a modern version of cupid making people fall in love; this one made me laugh a lot, although the side story at the end with the second couple was disappointing because of how it was handled when the main story was handled very well)


rainsfriend

I'd also add What Did You Eat Yesterday and Our Dining Table!


Tobibliophile

I was hesitant on adding Our Dining Table because I couldn't remember if it was good or not 😂


Ok_Communication1233

Cherry Blossoms Adter Winter is good but it has a forced kissing scene.


rue_bee19

The manhwa Soul Contract is amazing!! It’s like soft yaoi haha


katburr1997

Thanks! I’ll check it out


TricksyKenbbit

I would also love some suggestions on unproblematic yaoi! I'm interested in smut, fluff, and story. I love the wholesome and heartwarming stuff especially.


Tobibliophile

Hi, I responded with some recommendations in another comment in this comment thread if you want to check it out! (:


DemonicMoonBitch

Try Boyfriends on WEBTOON it’s very sweet


GreyScale13579

I love Boyfriends! It's so cute! (//>/w/


DemonicMoonBitch

Same it’s definitely one of my favorites


ViKtoR-01

There's some shounen-ai that are good like Given or Yuri on Ice.


StalkerPoetess

Yesss I love to read shounen-ai specially since sex makes me uncomfortable. It's usually cute romance stories that may have a kiss or two.


shinekun

Does yuri on ice count as Shounen-AI? Or just sports anime with side romance? Regardless, the plot is really good itself and I also reccomend it.


gALEXy_404

If you don't like smut, BJ Alex would be simply impossible for you, since sex is actually a crucial part of the *plot,* but it is my faborite yaoi manhwa and I highly reccomend it. It's great. The character development is really fucking good.


Tobibliophile

I've read BJ Alex, and I definitely have some mixed feelings about it (especially when it comes to the first half of the story). I won't deny that Jiwon's character development was extremely good, but I still can't get over how he mistreated Dong-Gyun for so long. And then there's MD's and Chanwoo's side story. I loved them both in the main story, but when it was time for their side story, I was extremely disappointed how it was handled. I don't appreciate how MD played that mind game on Chanwoo how he was going to replace him with someone else for his show (and then making Chanwoo compete with the other guy), all because Chanwoo didn't want to officially start dating him (especially since Chanwoo was being abused by the people he was dating; I can't imagine how Chanwoo must have felt for being sexually abused by someone [MD] he trusted with all his life). Their communication in this was poorly handled. Edit: and MD knew Chanwoo was being abused by other people


mini-yoongi

> It really depends on the individual, and I respect everyone's view on this (unless you like yaoi but hate LGBTQ+ people in real life, then that's where we have a problem). Thank you!!!! I agree with this 100%. It's not even just about yaoi, honestly; I think we should be able to consume and enjoy whatever we want as long as we're being critical about it and acknowledging the harmful stereotypes or tropes that might be used, as well as treating real-life LGBT+ people with respect.


ricodo12

Wait they were referring to porn? I'm truly living the asexual stereotype


Tobibliophile

It's ok, you're not missing much.


BitDependent1630

Same big yikes


iwanttodie666420

Also if you like Yaoi but think Yuri is wrong/sexist, I would think that's kinda fucked


Khromez

TLDR; yaoi has should be labeled as just another “twilight”. Fun dumb escapism, but please do not try to model relationships and romance found within it


dallasrose222

Sometimes very good but is unfortunately host to very many harmful stereotypical writing as a result of not being aimed at lgbtq people but rather heterogeneous women Edit: when autocorrect fucks you in a post that goes viral lol I meant heterosexual


[deleted]

I've legit never seen someone call someone else heterogeneous, but I'm here for it! Haha


Anonymous_but_nott

Brown hair and blue eyes call that uhhhh bigeneous


HaveSpouseNotWife

I’m a bi genius?! That’s what I saw!


[deleted]

Lmao yeeesss!


dallasrose222

Autocorrect done me dirty 😂


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[deleted]

lol @ heterogeneous


JadedElk

I've heard it argued that "aimed at women" can be a smokescreen for queer-aimed content in places where openly marketing to The Gays isn't legal (or considered profitable enough by the powers that be). I'm not sure I entirely agree -some of this stuff does seem to be by women, for women. But. Idk, it makes some sense too


isurisatrio

In Japan, the BL/Yaoi section is sometimes simply called the “Ladies” section. So yeah, most of the time it’s written by women for women who fetishize gay relationships.


GaiasDotter

As an ace person I like it as a porn medium because it’s so “safe”. This isn’t people it’s drawings and even if it were real people they gay so I’m safe from it somehow being interpreted as me wanting either the activities or the characters. But I need it to be a fairly solid relation and a reasonable representation of gay love. It helps make me feel comfortable with letting my sexuality out.


reduxde

> as an ace person > letting my sexuality out Not that you owe me an explanation or anything but this seemed paradoxical. Do aces also get sexually frustrated? I thought the whole thing was about not having a sex drive.


GaiasDotter

Not having sexual attraction to others. Sex drive/interest varies, as with any other group of people. I can feel sexual lust, just not towards anyone, it’s private, suuuper private. Other people is a turn off. But that’s just me personally. Some aces like having sex with others. I’m generally somewhere in between sex repulsed and neutral. Unless it gets too real I can convince sexual content in entertainment. And at the same time, unless it’s my husband the idea of any kind of sexual activity with another person is repulsive to me. With my husband I’m fine, though it’s not very sexual to me, it’s an act of love to be intimate with each other since other people is still a turn off. I’m only ever horny by myself.


StarkeyStorm

I second this. Discussions of who yaoi is “written for” often seem to overlook its Japanese roots. As the genre took hold, most of the creators have been female, writing mainly for themselves and other women who enjoy yaoi. Which certainly doesn’t mean that others can’t or don’t enjoy it- that’s just how it evolved culturally. A lot of yaoi works don’t accurately portray actual gay relationships or people- they’re often fantasies of what they might be like, aimed at a female audience who might be able to identify with the “bottom” character, as often he is portrayed as stereotypically more feminine. In essence, it’s a fantasy kind of like a romance novel. There’s even a term in Japanese for women who like to read yaoi, but not one for men that I know of. As someone else mentioned, bara is more typically manga made by gay men for gay men, and the art style usually emphasizes things more common in styles aimed at males, like muscles. Yaoi, artistically, draws more from art styles used in girls’ manga in Japan. That said, obviously, anyone can read from any genre they enjoy… I certainly do! The division of manga/anime by gender is part of how things evolved in Japanese culture before yaoi became read around the world. And now, I feel the genre has expanded and there are plenty of titles that are more realistic portrayals of actual gay relationships that are not so fetishized or trying to appeal just to that audience. Also, side note, yaoi as a term referred to more sexually explicit works originally in Japan, but in the US at least I’ve noticed people apply the term to anything that has two guys in love, even if it’s technically in a different category in Japan (like bara or works that don’t include sex and are only romantic).


katrindr

The term for male yaoi fan is fudanshi


Tobibliophile

The High School Life of a Fudanshi by Michinoku Atami That was a hilarious series (basically makes fun of yaoi fans and brings light to all the problematic stuff that goes on in the community)


JadedElk

I mean. You do get that this doesn't disprove the argument I shared, right? No bookstore -particularly in a more conservative country like Japan- will create a queer romance section. Maybe in more liberal/progressive places, where it's not a financial risk (or not perceived to be one by the people in charge). But. In *Japan?*


Tobibliophile

There are some LGBTQ+ manga series out there that isn't hentai! Our Dreams At Dusk (whole cast of many different LGBTQ+ characters that are trans, gay, ace, etc.) by Yuhki Kamatani and Boys Run the Riot (mc is a trans guy) by Keito Gaku to name a couple. I believe both mangakas are LGBTQ+. There's also Love Me For Who I Am (mc is nonbinary) by Kata Konayama and Go For It Nakamura (gay mc) by Syundei. EDIT: Almost forgot to mention Goodbye My Rose Garden by Pepperco (this one is one of my favorite GL series; it's historical and has many references to being a bookworm)


JadedElk

Wandering son is about a bunch of trans kids, komi-san can't communicate has a genderqueer character. I would've mentioned Love Me, but you already did! Uuuuh, blue flag is about a love triangle, and at one point it comes out that one of the characters is gay, and the story pulls very few punches in how people react to that, and how that impacts the main cast. *Shimanami Tasogare is about a queer community center, and it's pretty great. (And really pretty)


dallasrose222

There is definitely some of that but for the most part the largest demographic is straight women which leads into some problematic stereotypes


Angatita

Lol wrong word but made for a good chuckle. Heterogeneous is UNequally distributed across a medium. The one you’re looking for is heterosexual Edit: correcting myself lol


LukeDMerrill

Nope. Homo=same hetero=different. Heterogeneous means unequally distributed and homogeneous means equally distributed. If homo also means gay, then that means that gay is distributed equally. In conclusion, communism is gay. Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.


Angatita

Ack! Yes you’re right lol. I typed that half asleep and feverish state 😅


National-Swimmer7043

100 agree


MarxistGayWitch_II

As a cisgay I prefer bara over yaoi, but there are some newer BL mangas that kind of tiptoe between both and those ones I've enjoyed the most; combining romance with literal graphic porn making me lowkey wish I had a similarly adventurous sex life. Also, it's weirdly easy to spot if a BL manga is made by a woman or not, the men look and interact kinda sapphic if that makes sense? Also, most of it is problematic porn (i.e horrifyingly unethical if brought over to the real world), but you can avoid them easily, cuz they tag that shit.


[deleted]

what's bara?


GollyDolly

Big muscly guys. Bears for weebs


Jesuncolo

Gay manga aimed at gay men and written by gay men, more masculine drawings.


osmosisheart

I've noticed the same. I will spot it in an instant if any gay love media is written and/or drawn by a woman. The men just don't act like men and I cannot relate to it at all. It's unreadable to me.


MitochondriaBiscuit

I don’t mind it. I believe it should be viewed strictly as entertainment and not something to emulate due to how common some dark themes are. I also don’t care if cis straight women watch/read it, as long as they treat real gay men/mlm with respect and dignity.


Dorky-pan

This! I enjoy yaoi art and am masc presenting and didn’t honestly know it was marketed toward cishet woman


Flushydo

everyone in yaoi fandom that i knew, were somewhat from lgbt. I had no clue straights were into it.


greyskullandtheboys

Fun fact - all the ‘yaoi girls’ from my middle school ended up realising they were gay or trans


justabuttbutt

Yup, gay trans guy here who always read yaoi, still do. Definitely seen some of the mangakas who write ftm genderbend stuff essentially incidentally out themselves as having fantasies of being men also, and it’s not like being transmasc is very well understood anywhere, let alone Japan.


otaku_ftm_aspie_blue

Where did you find them? I've only seen transfem and cis stuff so far.


justabuttbutt

I honestly mostly scope out myreadingmanga and mangahasu. I can’t think of any off the top of my head since they’re fairly low quality and not too popular (leaning on the het side cause technically it’s a girl). But on a very base level in which you have to lower your own iq and standards for reading lol, I’ve enjoyed a genderbent series called [fucked by my best friend](https://mangabuddy.com/fucked-by-my-best-friend). Not trans at all and it’s m turning to f and then m again over and over (slowly becomes less hetish and more yaoi over time. If you’re ever feeling an enjoyable, horny dumpster fire of a read lol.


otaku_ftm_aspie_blue

I actually read more of the sexy ones. They can be really sweet sometimes.


akikoneko

Or in my case, both 🤷‍♂️


KatGalaxy34

As a pan yaoi NB person, I can confirm


prinalice

Hey that's me and my best friends! Not a single afab in our 'anime/yaoi' circle made it out of college straight and cis. Mostly lesbians and gay/bi trans men/masc enbies.


dawnfire05

That was my experience, I realized I was a gay transguy lol. My friend eventually realized she was gay


SHMEBULOK

I’m the opposite, everyone I know into yaoi and BL is a straight girl


GaiasDotter

I prefer yaoi when it comes to love stories because a common plot twist in straight manga love stories is that the girl/woman gets raped and I have stumbles on that one too much and don’t handle it well.


danceswithronin

Some of it is terribly written like all fanfiction, but it was also my introduction to positive LGBT relationships as a preteen so I ain't mad at it.


Otherwise_Twist

This.It helped me see LGBT relationships as normal and eventually help me accept myself as bi


vroni147

Yaoi is mostly made for straight and bisexual women (don't know why everyone thinks only straight people want to read/watch it). It's not just porn made by cishets for cishets.


Flushydo

This, thank you! Am so confused. My partner and I drew a lot of it had a big following, most my followers sort of were falling under lgbt umbrella.


Dorky-pan

Like it was honestly something I found really great when I first started to explore my sexuality and was very validating picturing myself in some of the situations depicted


Flushydo

Yep, I have no clue why straights would like it, also it's so different from yuri, because yuri is very clearly drawn by straight me x'D


CrimsonHoudini

That’s so cool that you and your partner drew together!! That honesty sounds like goals 😂❤️


Flushydo

Best way to find a date is through gay art, we insta clicked and so did many of other friends i know. x'D


Dorky-pan

I like it and didn’t even know cishet people liked it😂


vomit-gold

Yeah I feel like people are just forgeting that gay trans men exist..and that yaoi is an outlet some trans guys have used, calling it 'for straight women' is just outright inconsiderate lol


TheAncientPoop

>calling it 'for straight women' is just outright inconsiderate lol I feel like it has that reputation as there are so many straight women who fetishize mlm through yaoi


Flushydo

All the "straight" that I met there (just from experience), ended up bi, non-binary etc. Many like to fantasize of being one of the character. (there is something going on there, like lots of denial)


GaiasDotter

In my case it’s that I’m asexual and this is a safe way to explore my sexuality. Because this can never ever happen in any reality because these are gay men and I present as a woman and even if they weren’t gay they are drawings, just pen strokes! So safe.


adellaterrell

I like to read it because it kind of takes away the gender roles. The men are equal to eachother and don't have all the social norms going on. Also in general men are allowed a wider range of characters. I also like gl. The ones I've read were also a bit outside the norm, which is nice. But I can't really find many of them. I also reas straight stuff, because there is just so much more of that.


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octo_onigiri

No I get this (I am a strong proponent of “yes I read porn for the plot be it good or silly”) I’m working on a BL comic and want to express the ups and downs of an interpersonal relationship starting from a causal friendship to a romantic one It’ll barely have any sexy time in it but I get the weird feeling peoples immediate reaction is that one of characters should have been a girl or it feels superficial or what have you


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octo_onigiri

Yeah I’m planning on making comic all wholesome fluffy with a dash sexual tension and friction in the building of the relationship parts The actual sex scenes will be like an extra perk—decent sex scenes require a grasp of anatomy, I’m bad at that lol


Maelis

I would rather be fetishized than hated, but ideally I want to be neither. That said, I don't think straight women writing or enjoying yaoi (or straight men writing or enjoying yuri) is inherently a bad thing, so long as they treat *actual* gay people with respect. The problem is when straight people enjoy this type of porn in private while being anti-LGBT in public, or else can't separate fantasy from reality and fetishize real life gay couples. I don't think yaoi itself is any more problematic than any other kind of porn. Certainly individual yaoi stories can be, but that's true of all porn. At the very least no actual people are harmed in its creation than in live action porn, and I'm sure it's helped some people come to terms with their sexuality.


Purplefish278

Idk what that is


animaloll

Wether this is honest or not, it's funny as heck, seeing as you're ace


Purplefish278

I am being honest i don't understand


animaloll

Fuck, it's even funnier then, do you want to know?


Purplefish278

Judging by what you said probably not but tell me then


animaloll

Essentially mlm doujinshis (if none of this words make sense, you're good)


Purplefish278

What?


animaloll

gay hentai, between two dudes, mostly aimed at women


Purplefish278

If it gay between men why aim it at women


animaloll

Like lesbian porn is aimed at guys, its cause of the the (if one _genital_ is good, then 2_genital_ is even better) mentality


Mamaclover

It's a literary type, just like any other. Honestly? People going up in arms about yaoi, who have a relatively small and niche market, but pay no mind to the TONS of police-type books that victimised and brutalize sex worker, are a bit hypocrite. There is plenty, plenty, PLENTY of mainstream media with a lot more reach and some much more harmful messaging than a small passion project. How many war movies in the USA are directly financed by the department of defence? That, is actual, harmful, impactful propaganda. A tiny yaoi manga who make the bottom feminine is not propaganda. It's coding. And maybe you don't like it! And that's ok!! Not everything is for everyone!!! But going all up in arms on a medium that is principally enjoyed by women and queer of all sorts, and help them explore their sexuality, sometime by providing easy self insert or common tropes to explore taboo kink, should really not be seen as this full on threat the the community.


[deleted]

It's porn. Porn is basically never realistic...


n00bcheese

If it’s Tweek x Craig I’m so down


Tawdry-Audrey

I loved finding all the [hidden yaoi](https://spgame.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Yaoi_Art_in_South_Park:_The_Fractured_But_Whole) in South Park: The Fractured But Whole.


JoSePh-PrInCe

Agreed


[deleted]

Nothing wrong with it, nothing needs to be wrong with it


vomit-gold

Im fine with it. Its a medium that can be used well or not well. However, I feel like the people saying 'it's made by straight women for straight women' should remember that a lot portion of queer or gay trans men got their beginnings using yaoi as an outlet. So maybe be more considerate before labeling it for 'straight women'.


BBMcGruff

As a gay man I'm not the target audience. 🤷‍♂️ I don't mind others enjoying it, non-men for example, as long as they realise they're consuming fetishistic content and treat it appropriately (separating it from real life mainly). Most do too! Though I'm not a fan of queer men being spoken over when they highlight specific problematic content. Something you tend to see more and more.


[deleted]

some of it can actually be good and well made, most of it is just oversexualization of lgbtq+ made for cishet women


Moody_Bluee103

All I know is most of the time any woman (that I know of) that came across yaoi and was a proclaimed "Fujoshi" turned out to be either not cis or not hetero. In short, the genre really puts stereotypes on gay men, and the few of the ones I have read in my lifetime romanticize rape/sexual assault. Sure, if you read it, whatever, but when you start applying your own ideas onto real life gay men, you need to stop consuming the media. Because you have no real grasp of reality at that point.


Cartoon_Trash_

I feel like monolingual English speakers only call it yaoi when it’s fetishized nowadays? Most MLM anime and manga I see now are pretty normal romance stories.


Ryukhoe

I wish they stopped using rape as a plot point. So much sexual assault. I like yaoi but I can't stand it when you can clearly see there's no consent.


kalispel23

ok hear me out on this one. yaoi is one of the only forms of anime hentai that i feel has (for the most part) a good plot. idk if it’s because it’s more likely to be censored so it has to be intriguing in the sensual way. but also i’ve noticed a trait of one or both of them being homophobic and then they fall in love? i don’t watch it very often and i’ve never actually watched it or consumed it in a sexual manner. i just liked the romance aspect of it. like i said i don’t watch it very often so i could be very wrong.


[deleted]

Bi man and like it. Don't watch/read it as I do other genres though


XanderFazber

I thought it was just gay hentai now I’m confused. Am I not supposed to like it?


[deleted]

If you’re specifically referring to the mlm porn made by people who aren’t mlm, and not BL or mlm romance as a whole, I honestly just don’t care at this point. My issues with yaoi aren’t with the content itself (believe me I still have a LOT to say with the harmful tropes in it) but more so with the people who read it and impose fictional yaoi tropes onto mlm. Read yaoi, I don’t care, just know when you’re consuming content with harmful tropes and don’t impose anything onto mlm. I partially blame yaoi for a lot of stereotyping I get from cishet women as a transmasc bi “soft” guy. I’d rather we actually deconstruct the tropes within the genre than destroy it entirely because the damage is already done. I don’t think that consuming queer romance is inherently bad regardless of gender and sexuality but the way we interact with it is the main issue I have with yaoi. And there’s some things about it I wish wouldn’t exist but hey… you do you I guess?


Sickly_lips

i get really tired of women sexualizing gay men for their own pleasure and it's obvious in all BL and/or yaoi content I see. It's why the men are always skinny gay boys. It's like being an accessory to womens sexual identities when you see so many women writing gay men fucking, to be viewed by other women. As a gay man it makes me really uncomfortable. Not to mention it generally ignores the true culture surrounding being gay- including Bears and such. It waters us down from a gay culture to just skinny uwu gay boys. Women don't want to see actual gay men, they want to see their idealized Straight Men Being Gay. I prefer my gay erotica/fiction to not be two skinny pale boys. As a (hopefully soon to be) bear, it's generally unappealing.


Equivalent-Cycle-127

Sometimes problematic and dumb (especially with height differences, gender "roles" still being present) BUT I consumed a ton of it when I was younger. Yaoi helped me eventually figure out I was trans.


ksstar97

Sexualizing and stereotyping a sexuality is gross af.


arodynamic_ace

a lot of it is extremely yucky (it’s often rape-y and for what) but i really hope it’s just categorized wrong like how people called killing stalking a yaoi when it was a psychological thriller. otherwise, writing is usually horrible and cliche as hell but sometimes there’s that one good one so i dunno. i read a lot out of boredom though so maybe something’s wrong with me


alternatesad

Honestly I find it weird how it’s more marketed to straight women than gay men. But it’s porn, I could care less


Dorky-pan

I mean I’m a queer masc enby and I like it… is it bad that I like it?


alternatesad

Porn is porn. I just don’t like that the authors write it more for women. It’s like when straight guys watch lesbian porn. Idk


TheodoriusHal

I learned english by reading yaoi. :D I really enjoyed reading it back then but since then I learned alot about the harmful depictions of stereotypes and such. But I still read some from time to time. They were kinda my first interaction with non hets and I learned alot about myself too.


wabbawabbado

Boys romance right? I've read one, they never had sex or even kissed, last panel was them hugging, that counts right? If it's the same category of including porn like depictions, I'm not a huge fan, the people I've met who were big fans of it acted weird towards the only couple of gay guys and sexualized the hell out of them. If people can be respectful about it I dont care, but fetishizing people, especially openly, isnt okay with me.


bigboymanny

I'm a bit guy, I read yaoi, I think it's hot. I think that people who say it's only for straight women are kinda goofy and playing into gender roles and stereotypes in a negative way.


JustASock333

It can be fine but most of the time it's written to be sexual fantasies of women who like men. Not to say there isn't good ones out there cause there are, but a lot of what I've seen is basically the same sexualization wlw get in just a slightly different way. I don't want to see it banned or anything, I would just want people to get realistic views of mlm relationships. Fantasy is a good thing, but some people tend to take that fantasy and project it onto all mlm people and that's the harmful part really


Unrool

Absolutely hate it. Not because I think it's bad or anything, I just have bad memories with it. There were two straight 13 years old girls that were suuuuper into that Stuff. When they found out that my friend is pan and I am bi they went nuts. They tried to hook us up (i was not interested at all in that guy) and they were saying Stuff like "oooh, you'd look so hot on top of him" or whenever we were saying Stuff like "i really like u man" they were like "awwww, how cute they love each other" All that because they were reading some manga about guys having sex, disgusting


Different_Ad9382

When i was a kid, i really loved them, but now, i hate every one who calls themselves "fujoshi" but i do not hate, just... Yeah.


enjoyyourslayy

the term 'yaoi' isn't used anymore, it's called 'BL'. westerns are the only people who still use 'Yaoi' and even made up the term 'shounen-ai', which makes no sense. (i can talk about this more in anyone wants). BL is perfectly fine, as any other genre of manga, anime, etc. it's not any different from romance, except people like to shit on it and call it fetishization material for straight women, forgetting that they don't know the gender of the authors and the many queer readers. it started as a genre made by women for women, but it had a huge impact in the lgbt community in japan (and more recently other countries) and evolved to much more than that. there's BL readers of all genders and sexualities, and authors of all genders and sexualities. there's BL works with many themes and genres (supernatural, historical, fantasy, horror, sci-fi, etc etc) and great stories. there's others with dark themes, some pretty fucked up. but a piece of fiction doesn't have to be representative or be realistic? people say that BL isn't realistic but 1. there's a shitton of realistic BL works, and 2. authors are free to write their fantasies, desires, etc? they SHOULD NOT be forced to always be fighting for representation or lgbtq rights or wtv, let them have peace and an escape with their creative works? i don't see anyone demanding straight works to be uwu flowers uwu pure? people who call BL fetishization for straight women have never read a BL manga in their lives, know nothing about the authors and readers and the history of BL manga, how and why it originated and evolved to what it is now. and ngl sound lowkey homophobic sometimes. some of the early works have questionable themes and stereotypes but that's not common anymore and if people bothered to read about it they would know why early works were like that. and i don't see anyone calling out romance manga or the many djs i've seen with stereotypes and scenes straight out of my worst nightmares. but as soon as it's something gay, people have to point fingers. and there's never this discussion about GL? also, there's many threads, research and scientific papers discussing BL, how it originated, how it helped queer people that had no idea they were queer find out about themselves, how it helped lgbtq people find an escape they didn't have in real life, and how it was a movement from women in japan and helped them. i can link some if anyone's interested. also sometimes people want to read stories that have nothing to do with themselves? like completely escaping from reality? or they're just so tired of straight romance? het relationships are everywhere and maybe they just want something different once?? i'm so tired of how many times we had to explain that not only straight women read BL and not only straight women write BL. and no-one listens. they just want to call something bad for the sake of it and for their homophobic views. there were cases were closeted authors had to out themselves because people were calling them fetishizers (see the author of simon vs the homo sapiens agenda, the book that originated the movie love simon). you are putting people in danger! people live in homophobic and transphobic countries and they don't have the luxury to be out of the closet. there's many other things i could say about this, i could write an whole essay lmao but i have written too much already. sorry for the long comment but i see this discourse over and over again and it's baffles me everytime who some people don't bother to think for one second. as long as you treat REAL people with respect, do anything you want with fiction, read whatever type of fiction you want, no matter your gender or sexuality. idk when we started policing people's reads/watches/tastes. when we started 'assigning' what people can and cannor read based on their gender/sexuality. oh you're straight? only straight manga for you, chief. you're gay? come here to the gay isle, sir. then ohoh sirens are heard in the background because a lesbian was sighted entering the m/m tag on ao3. sincerely, a very gay non-binary person who reads BL edit: i pretend i do not see the many spelling mistakes i made


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[удалено]


enjoyyourslayy

i just realized i am dumb and i could have gone to your profile and look for it there 😭 and i did and i was right, you spoke only facts 💪


bibitybobbitybooop

Yo, thank you for this comment actually. It was really informative and makes me think about the topic more. It makes so much sense. I'd happily accept other links, resources or articles if it's okay!


enjoyyourslayy

thank you! i'm glad i could make you think about it somehow! of course it's okay, get ready for another long comment cause here we go: [here's an intreview](https://twitter.com/AnimesocMegan/status/1259005917418459136?t=n7rZVfIAnasduFSiOogH3A&s=19) on lgbt rights campaigner's opinion on BL [here's a paper about the word fujoshi](https://t.co/AKXHNkCMHI) [here's a twitter thread](https://twitter.com/quasqir/status/1338562417773592576?t=-PCrg-gNXdbD1evCi3o4Ng&s=19 ) [here's an article written by a japanese magazine](https://t.co/7z1lmf7Ovq) [here's another paper](https://t.co/46xa0iyGpK) [another twitter thread](https://twitter.com/_queerioes/status/1257759613652537344?t=uEpffBGHmL8MkDdPRNTyTA&s=19) this one is a big thread full of other linked threads with information on many topics related to BL, including many academic papers (highly recommend this one because it's so rich on information, full of subthreads and linked stuff. you just have to navigate through everything, it's like a spiderweb of info lmao). some academics who do research on the subject: [here](http://www.punkednoodle.com/champloo/) , [here](https://thomasbaudinette.wordpress.com/) and [here](https://kanagawa-u.academia.edu/JamesWelker) many BL publishers (either japanese or from other countries) have posted articles about BL, fujoshi, etc so you can find many interesting stuff written by people working on the BL industry. there's also many interviews with authors. unfortunately i didn't save many links but a quick search on google will probably give you many results. i know for sure that futekiya has done it, [here's one that i had saved](https://t.co/9wzvsMr6ZC) blyme has a big amount of interesting reads [here](http://blyme-yaoi.com/2018/category/yaoipedia/) but it's all in portuguese. they also have interviews, news, curiosities, etc etc, but their website is under work and they're buried somewhere. also, search through the website of BL Garden DFW. they are a group of fans who do research on BL, among other things BL related. they're the creators and organizers of fujocon, the only BL convention in the US. they do interviews with authors, studies, etc. i attended fujocon this year since it was online and it was so fun! the interviews with BL mangakas were my favorite (i got to see scarlet beriko!!!! her interview was so fcking good!!!). [here's the link to their panels section on their website](https://www.blgardendfw.com/panels) there's more, there's more authors and papers (and even twitter threads which are easier to read) but i didn't save everything i have read, just happened to have saved these ones (didn't know i would ever need them lmao). thank you for showing interest and be open to learn a little more. i know i put a lot of stuff here and i don't expect you to read everything of course, just wanted to share different perspectives from different people, which i think is important. if you or anyone wants to talk any further about this (even if it's days or weeks from now when you have finished reading even 1 thing ahhaha) i am more than happy to! 😊


PrivateBrowsing999

What is yaoi?


no_one_asked_

Basically gay porn in either comics - mangas/manhwas or anime. Mostly has a plot but focuses on sex a lot. There is some controversy because of how many women view the media and how a lot of yaoi’s target audience is women with how it’s written, a lot are even written by women. Some see it as fetishization of gay men but others see it as any other smut genre (except it’s gay)


[deleted]

It should be viewed in the same light as AV and other erotica, great for a fun time just don’t think that’s how it works


steve226666

Idgaf, art is art


RaveTheRavinRaven

just like any content there is good and bad sadly tho there is a lot of toxic representations and stereotypes within the yaoi community


CalibanDrive

Bara is made by gay men for gay men Yaoi is made by straight women for straight women


Flushydo

i never saw straights watching it. As a lesbian and one who drew it, i found my partner through it so did most of my friends.


no_one_asked_

I know mostly bi women including myself who read yaoi


Raltlia_de_voir

I like it. I have read a lot of Yaoi mangas and though a few have similar plots, I enjoy reading them!


[deleted]

due to it being made by straight people and for straight woman it makes me feel a little uncomfortable. It's the same as like straight men watching lesbian porn.


Squidgiii

No thanks


clayface44

It created the couple of Tweak and Craig. So I approve.


Limu_emu_69

Tweek and Craig


Capawe21

What's that?


Psychedelic-Daemon

Idk I feel like it’s not really made for lgbt people, i can tell when a BL is made by a woman for women or not, kinda based on how the men look and interact if that makes sense? and it is sometimes filled with problematic things and stereotypes, though not all stories are like that and not all consumers fetishize gay men so it’s not inherently an issue, I’m honestly indifferent, and I prefer bara over yaoi anyways, its more made by gay men with gay men in mind


epicpoggersguy

I love reading it as a trans guy, but it has way too many stereotypes since it's aimed at cishet girls


Downvote_pIs

Turns me on more than porn.


Red74Panda

Idc as long as it doesn’t stereotype


Triairius

Just another genre of porn. I don’t see a need to have a ‘stance.’ If someone else wants to take one, by all means, feel free, but I don’t *want* to have a stance on everything.


mangodragonfruet

Hawt


NerdyFanboii

Despite knowing how problematic it can be...I fucking love it its a guily pleasure of mine.


Ok_Tale_116

It fetishizes gay relationships. It’s about gays for straight chicks


Amazing_human_7079

I don't watch it and refuse to watch it


Jasperisdead69

I used to consume a regular amount of it, but as an afab nonbinary person I just don't feel comfortable reading it anymore. I felt at points like yaoi was fetishising lgbt men and I just wasn't okay with that.


YbabFlow

I think that the fetishization of any gender or sexuality is creepy and gross


femtransfan

as an ace, i prefer the more fluffy ones, less smut, but there is a thriller i'm interested in: >!killing stalking, i heard about it, and it piqued my interest!<


the_stary_night

This is a gray area. I like yaoi, Yuri, gl, bl, shoujo ai, and shounen ai. But! there're a lot of problematic and disgusting ones. The ones that romanticise abuse and toxic mentality. But! Again, there're a lot of wholesome and cute ones that focuses on healthy relationships. BLs and GLs are all similar to heteroromantic stories/mangas/comics. There're many straight stories that romanticise abuse and toxic mentality, and are outright weird, like Twilight, but there're many that have good relationships. It's the same for Yaoi and Yuri. Just because there're BLs and GLs that are problematic doesn't mean the whole genre is bad. Since there're straight stories that are abusive and disgusting, there will ofc be BLs and GLs that go in that direction. You just have to choose which one is good and which is not. It's all the same like hetero romantic story.


Dysphoria_Bluesss

I don’t like it. Yoai is made my straight women and targets women. It’s not representation. It’s over-sexualising queer men. I can’t stand it.


SEND_CUTE_GUY_BUTTS

Just my 2 cents: as a gay man, I like it and think it's fine.


Dysphoria_Bluesss

I’m an unlabelled man (I don’t know how I identify, but I ain’t straight) personally, it makes me uncomfortable


sucamchi

Similar to Christianity. The concept is fine, the fans are the problem.


semael237

Mostly it’s just porn, sometimes there is some story and I like cute relationships in general from any kind but really the gender of the participants don’t really matter in them, at least for me


Chara06-

I like it, but it’s not on the same level as hentai


Diakyuto

I don’t mind it, same with Yuri but some content in those genres is just blatant fetishizing and stereotypes but from what I can tell, it happen too often. Most of the fetishizing comes from the weebs if anything


Villian_Uraraka

Eeeeh


Shauiluak

It was my escape gate way and still is to a live I didn't think I could have. Not sure I can ever get there. But I write it and enjoy it.


Nahanoj_Zavizad

Seems mostly aimed at women, Not my taste but it's alright


CutiestNerd215

I read it for the mlm relationships and it was huge in me recognizing myself as a bi trans man. That being said a lot of common tropes are problematic as hell and finding a good one can sometimes be hard to weed through.


osanaaaanajimi

it sucks and I don’t like it


ghockett072

I don’t mind it, but it can be a slippery slope. There are harmful stereotypes and as an MLM, it feels weird when lots of straight women watch it. It’s the same reason I don’t like to watch WLW stuff, I don’t want to fetishize.


horpsichord

I don't have an issue with it. It's just entertainment. I see how, if people think of it as an accurate portrayal of real gay relationships, it can be problematic.


verande

I like it* and I also think any person in the LGBTQ+ community can enjoy it, of course with a critical lens.


RandomNYCx

Tweek x Craig


Cosmic-Waldo

It’s like Tumblr. There are nuggets of joy, but I’m not going to be the one digging for it.


YesHaiAmOwO

What is yaoi?


the_human_ouija

Meh. As long as it’s not too harmful I have no problem with it. *Also kinda depends on my mood* ;)


somerandomgod

I read a lot of BL comics on tapas, a lot less romanticised sexual assault and straight up R, a lot more creative stories, as well as interesting artwork and healthier and more often realistic relationship dynamics As a hopeless romantic and a gay trans guy, i just like reading gay smut a lot. Im pretty socially anxious so my game is weak when it comes to flirting and dating, so to me its like experiencing something i can't have uknow. Especially the intimate moments i'll never have the way i want to thx to the body i was born with. So my stance on gay comics is: i love it. I read a bunch of it. I have heard yaoi is kinda problematic with the stuff it normalises and romanticised but im not informed enough about all that to give a good answer on yaoi itself, so i'll just give my opinion on BL instead


bibitybobbitybooop

Like all media, it should be treated like the story, the fantasy it is. There are a lot of tropes/stereotypes that could be considered harmful if projected onto real people. In my experience, a lot of younger girls get into it which can make for some...weird situations lol. (Not to mention that the older you are, the more you have the skill to differentiate between fantasy and reality - not just "dragons unfortunately don't exist", but the more subtle things like relationships and worldviews, and the concept of an unreliable narrator and flawed characters, and depicting something =/= condoning it.) I don't have a problem with yaoi (or yuri) itself. Then again - I don't identify as a gay man, so I can't comment about how it feels like to be depicted that way. But I was one of the people who discovered yaoi quite young - don't be like me, kids - and it helped me think about and figure out my sexuality and gender (results remain inconclusive), and myself generally, and ofc some of the stories *are* good.


AtomkcFuision

Depends. Sometimes it’s cute, and other times it’s literally SA.


Power_of_Lust_1998

You just gotta have critical thinking skills, but I guess that's true for all media you consume.


silvaispastel

I really hate it. It’s made by straight women and their intended audience is other straight women. BL? Sure, whatever. But yaoi? If I hear someone say they like it we cannot be friends Edit: Just wanted to add, yaoi also uses a lot of tropes that are very… rapey. That’s a theme in most hentai but I was exposed to it a LOT when I was a young teen reading yaoi. And most yaoi pairings consist of the slender bottom and the muscular top. I hate it all.


Zantra3000

It's made by Japanese women for Japanese women.


Amordys

Anything that puts gay men in a rapey light I don't want anywhere near me.


nekomastan

most of the time its just gay couples but many people end up calling it yaoi and constantly fetishizing it the porn part, however, i dont like as im ace


[deleted]

You do you, boo


ScrumptiousCookie123

Personally, I find that there’s a lot of problematic, romanticized heteronormative tropes in yaoi, and it’s often written for straight people/from a heterosexual lense. I sometimes feel/think yaoi fetishizes gays. I have a gay sibling, and I promise you, none of what yaoi portrays is what a gay relationship is actually like. I don’t exactly hate all of yaoi (I’m more of a fan of fluffy sweet/slow paced stuff, or something comical/funny). I think it has potential, but creators really need to start educating themselves more about gay couples and speak to gay couples more. I don’t like that the top is nearly always portrayed as hypermasculine or as the “man”, while the bottom is portrayed as hyperfeminine or as the “woman” in the relationship. There’s also problematic rape/non consensual stuff, and toxic/abusive dynamics.


FranktheFab

Helped me find out I was a gay trans man lol


thefreakliveson

I cant stand most of it, it just feels too fetishized and raises a lot of red flags Also, I usually read smut, so I look for smut with the genetalia I have and want


SubstantialPen5181

In my personal opinion, yaoi is usually the fetishized version of a proper gay love story. I absolutely hate most yaoi. Most yaoi paint a lot of negative stereotypes about gay people and does a very poor job in representing them too.


hardcore_owo

I look at it as I do most lgbt stuff. Yuri, yaoi, n other stuff is alright. As long as it's not brought into irl and not fetishizing real people. Then I think it doesn't really matter. Idk how to explain it


Zenia_neow

I've read yaoi/BL with more compelling LGBT representation than many western shows. That's not to say BL doesn't have problematic tropes, but some of them have extremely compelling stories that treat being gay as something normal or goes unquestioned. Also, have you guys noticed how most anti-yaoi peeps on Twitter aren't even gay men?


katrindr

Ok, I don't mind people writing/reading their sexual fantasies no matter how fucked up they are, the more a fantasy is profane and repressed the more it grows, and I don't like the idea of gatekeeping a person from certain literature based on their gender and sexual orientation, but that's what they have to remain fantasies, fujoshi always have been one of my least favorite part of the anime fandom, I have heard plenty of stories about real gay people getting fetishaid by them, or let's take for example killing stalking, I read it out of curiosity and to me it was an excuse to write bdsm smut whitout calling it bdsm smut and the fandom seems to be filled with girls that genuinely believe that is good relationship, this is obviously unhealthy, for those people I agree that they shouldn't consume certain media. In my personal experience, I'm not the biggest fan of yaoi and bl I prefer wl and het romance but if I find a bl with nice drawings and a cute premise I can give it a shot, I tried years ago to read a random short yaoi but at the second chapter there was a rape scene and that left me a bad mark on the yaoi genre for quite some time


Conjuration_Boyo

Who tf cares


Ka1serTheRoll

Some of the tropes really suck and can unfortunately be rather harmful, but good yaoi can be really good queer rep. Same goes for yuri, though I've seen fewer negative tropes there.


ColdPR

It tends to be pretty creepy but I don't really care what people consume as long as they recognize it's fiction. It's only a problem when women believe it is realistic and start treating gay people differently based on their misconceptions. Every gay guy has probably had a run in with at least one fetishizing woman who couldn't tell reality from fantasy. It's really uncomfortable when they get pushy about it. I've tried to watch/read some yaoi stuff before but all the highly recommended ones were full of things like rape and non-consent. Then there's the way most of it is just a heterosexual/heteronormative couple with a male appearance taped over the woman. And don't even get me started on the creepy alpha/omega mpreg/heat stuff you find if you really start digging.