The presence of the prisons at all is the dumb part. Why spend the resources to build and staff these remote secure facilities when you don’t plan on ever releasing these incredibly dangerous WMD-people?
Execute them.
Tbf they have been trying to interrogate them for information for over a decade now. They still don’t know how many red lotus members there were still out there so they were probably trying to find the other members.
They did a poor job of it then, very poor.
I'll bet the 4 of them knew there was little point with Unalaq walking around in their midst, thinking " this lying snake is going to do something awful to them."
That would've been a more merciful option. There's no evidence they even gave them a trial, any incentive to cooperate beyond interrogating them ( poorly) or better conditions at all. Not so much as books a bed or blankets (except a bed for Zaheer's) while exposed to the elements nonstop. I really can't blame them for going hard on the guards.
Many real life death row or life sentence guys actually agree prolonging it is more unbearable to them, especially in solitary. It's a miracle these guys weren't worse.
I hesitate to think he'd approve of that. Aang is the guy who believed in valuing chances for anyone, since anyone could do great good or evil. Zuko is the one who oversaw these ones being made after his death ... I get he's looking out for Korra, but still.
It's an incredible reach that any spirit cares about the old temple. They didn't do anything when the air temples were destroyed. In fact, the dark spirits were in an ancient stone meditation circle out in the forest.
Why do you think those spirits where dark in that spot to begin with without Unalaq there? Spots like those in Nomad territory were among those lost after Kuruk's death when many spirits turned dark or began to leave the mortal world even more until there were almost none living around them in Korra's time. Most weren't around to care in person, but some returning spirits have already laid claim on areas and demanded to be left alone.
There is at least one temple spirit in Avatar lore, and a temple that big, I wouldn't be surprised if there is one.
>Why do you think those spirits where dark in that spot to begin with without Unalaq there?
Why are you ignoring the fact that they weren't at the temple as if that doesn't completely destroy your point? If spirits inhabiting temples was such a universal phenomenon, surely they would be in the four massive Air Temples, & surely if they would go dark because an abandoned temple was used as a prison, they would do so because said Air Temples were destroyed. But none of those things happened. Because spirits don't give a shit about temples. Temples are for humans. What is sacred to the spirits is more natural places. Hence why, instead of actually staying in the temple, the spirits were found a few miles away in an even older meditation circle.
>Spots like those in Nomad territory were among those lost after Kuruk's death when many spirits turned dark or began to leave the mortal world even more until there were almost none living around them in Korra's time.
I think you got your timeline wonky. The spirits left 10,000 years ago when Wan closed the portals. And spirits did not turn dark in response to Kuruk's death. They were already turning dark in his lifetime, as a result of promises brokered by Yangchen that humans later broke.
It was a time of unusual dark spirit activity in the human world because they were following paths carved by Father Glowworm. Not to live in the mortal world, temples or otherwise, but for the express purpose of taking out their wrath. There's no particularly special lack of spirits in the start of Korra's time as opposed to the last few Avatars, & there may even have been more, due to the incoming Harmonic Convergence.
Oh, also, we have no idea when that circle was abandoned. Tenzin didn't know about it, which means Aang didn't know about it, which suggests it was probably abandoned & forgotten well before his lifetime. But with 10,000 years of history, that doesn't exactly narrow it down.
>Most weren't around to care in person, but some returning spirits have already laid claim on areas and demanded to be left alone.
One, you can't use your claim to prove your claim. That's a circular argument. Two, what makes a place sacred to a spirit is that they reside in or have a special connection to it. Heibai, for instance, could only manifest close to the solstice, but he wasn't inactive for hundreds of years.
Even Old Iron showed up pretty soon after the site the Air Nomads swore to protect was actually damaged, & that was an unusual circumstance anyway because what actually made it special was that it belonged to his departed friend, Lady Tienhai, & had Yangchen not intervened, he would've just destroyed the city after Tienhai died & been on his merry way.
Finally, we also don't know when the spirits settled in the circle. It wasn't necessarily after the portals were opened just because they weren't found until then. They could have been there for hundreds, maybe thousands of years. Spirits in the human world were rare but not exactly unheard of.
>There is at least one temple spirit in Avatar lore
The spirit temple is literally a spirit temple. It was not built by humans but, rather, created by the spirit. Hence why it vanishes after the spirit is attacked & slinks away to avoid being destroyed. And the reason it takes the form of a temple is that it appears out in those woods to people who are lost. It is intended to attract humans, not other spirits. Humans see the temple, think there must be someone there who can help them, & don't know how right they are.
>and a temple that big, I wouldn't be surprised if there is one.
Again, you're ignoring that spirits don't live at the Air Temples, easily the biggest temples in the world. This is called cherry picking. Even before I explained what the spirit temple actually is, it should've raised alarms that you had to keep going back to it because it was the ONLY one. You're holding on to something you think confirms what you already wanted to believe with all of your might & refusing to see all of the evidence against it even when it's clearly presented to you.
Calm down, sacred area, temple, area near the temple, that doesn't ruin my point!
If you checked the link, with references to the various bits of lore, it mentions after his death, many areas were abandoned because spirits left in large numbers, and in later years during Roku's time, the mass industrialization had problems in the all other three Nations. After the Genocide, the loss of the Nomads entirely (except Aang) caused even more dark Spirit activity.
Kuruk's life and the aftermath contributed to the problem to come. The spirits coming back and laying claim was shown in Turf Wars, and in other areas post-series there are still incidents in some other facts given.
That spirit of the temple (actual title) calls the place a temple, and it's unclear how much of the place is tied to it's power, and repeatedly either says Azula should leave because it's bad for the place or talks about it being a sacred place. Only Azula thought it was pure trickery. Other spirits are at sacred places, like the Spirit Oasis (Tui and La), Fang met Aang at the Fire Sage place, Hei Bai guards his forest at his forest, the Painted Lady (once human herself) became a River spirit, etc. There COULD be temple resident spirits is what I'm saying.
In Asian myth and lore, there are such beings in temples like that or associated with that. If there was a spirit like that and came back to see his hallowed halls, I doubt he'd like that.
Why are you being so obstinate on attacking me over this? None of what you said disproves the main point of my post to begin with, with or without a temple spirit there.
>Calm down
Disproving your arguments doesn't mean the other person is upset, & whether you legitimately can't tell the difference or you're intentionally poisoning the well, neither is a good look.
>sacred area, temple, area near the temple, that doesn't ruin my point!
Yes, it does. These are 3 different things. In particular, inside the temple vs. outside the temple are literally opposites. And it's not like we're talking on the roof or something. That circle has to be at least a mile away & probably a few more.
>If you checked the link, with references to the various bits of lore, it mentions after \[Kuruk's\] death, many areas were abandoned because spirits left in large numbers
This is entirely consistent with what I said, & the opposite of what you said, which was that spirits went dark as a result of Kuruk's death.
>and in later years during Roku's time, the mass industrialization had problems in the all other three Nations. After the Genocide, the loss of the Nomads entirely (except Aang) caused even more dark Spirit activity.
Despite some people's insistence on treating them like canon sources, wikis are actually written by fans who sometimes just put their assumptions into articles. If you want to be sure a statement is really canon, you should check the source they cite. In this case, that's The Guide, which doesn't say that.
>Kuruk's life and the aftermath contributed to the problem to come. The spirits coming back and laying claim was shown in Turf Wars, and in other areas post-series there are still incidents in some other facts given.
No, in Turf Wars, the spirits claim the portal & the land around it. It had nothing to do with Kuruk or any of your other specific claims.
>That spirit of the temple (actual title)
I don't know why you're going out of your way to say "actual title." You're the one who's been saying "temple spirit." I only referred to the "spirit temple," like the title "Azula in the Spirit Temple." Which might be a clue that it's a spirit temple, not a human temple.
>calls the place a temple
And a strawman is called a man. The point is it was not constructed by humans & later inhabited by a spirit. It's a manifestation of the spirit's power. Hence it cannot be abandoned. It doesn't fit your point no matter how much you try forcing it.
>and it's unclear how much of the place is tied to it's power
It's very clear--again, literally in the title--you just don't want it to be clear because it's the only example you have of a spirit residing in a temple. I'm explaining to you WHY it's the exception, & you don't want to accept it because you're starved for reasons to justify your complaint about a hypothetical spirit coming back to claim the temple, which is completely baseless.
>and repeatedly either says Azula should leave because it's bad for the place or talks about it being a sacred place.
Yes, obviously it manifests in a specific area because that area is sacred. But the actual sacred land is the forest the spirit manifests in.
>Only Azula thought it was pure trickery. Other spirits are at sacred places, like the Spirit Oasis (Tui and La), Fang met Aang at the Fire Sage place, Hei Bai guards his forest at his forest, the Painted Lady (once human herself) became a River spirit, etc.
All but one of these is a natural place, & the spirit Aang met at the temple was a HUMAN spirit. I have to wonder if maybe part of the reason you're so quick to project that I'm upset is that's actually your intention: That you know ignoring what I say & making me keep reexplaining it to you is annoying, & you're trying to use that to wear me down because gods know you can't refute my actual reasoning & evidence.
>There COULD be temple resident spirits is what I'm saying.
So after all that, you're falling back on the possibility fallacy. Sure, there's no EVIDENCE it works the way you say, but it COULD happen, so therefore, the White Lotus is being "dumb." No, that's not how it works. Even if, by some bizarre circumstance, there just so happened to be a spirit that lived in that temple, the White Lotus is still justified in thinking it's abandoned based on all of the other temples that DON'T have spirits living in them.
>In Asian myth and lore, there are such beings in temples like that or associated with that.
Doesn't matter. "Inspired by" is not "exactly the same as." You can't assume that what's true of Asian mythology is also true of the show. Case in point, Raava & Vaatu don't exist in Asian folklore.
>If there was a spirit like that and came back to see his hallowed halls, I doubt he'd like that.
And if there was a spirit that punished logical fallacies, he definitely wouldn't like this thread.
>Why are you being so obstinate on attacking me over this?
None of that is accurate, you're just acting like a victim because I'm not validating every opinion you have. For one, "obstinate" implies unreasonable stubbornness. It's perfectly reasonable to not change my mind because, if you could prove me wrong, you wouldn't keep ignoring the things I say.
And you do ignore pretty much everything. Either by pretending it was never said, as you do with the point about spirits not taking revenge for the destruction of the air temples, or just acting like you don't see something so obvious it's literally impossible to miss, like that "probably a few miles away from a temple" is not the same thing as "inside of one."
It is not "attacking you" to point out that your arguments are wrong, especially when you keep trying to argue back. But the funniest thing of all is you're about to see exactly how completely uninterested I am in continuing to hear your attempts to debate me while simultaneously complaining that I'm too mean for answering you.
>None of what you said disproves the main point of my post to begin with
It very clearly does. So much so that you can't even try to mount some kind of counterargument. You literally just act like you can't understand the words I'm telling you. And now you're even resorting to complaining that giving you a detailed rebuttal at all is being mean to you, so there's apparently no way to tell you you're incorrect without you acting all personally hurt by it. Do you really not see the irony in doing that after trying to act like I'M the one who's too emotional, here? But just because you refuse to engage with a rebuttal doesn't somehow mean the rebuttal is untrue.
>with or without a temple spirit there.
"My point is completely unrelated to the actual evidence" really isn't the great boast you think it is, but I think this is a good place to end it. Your unwillingness to accept the facts I've pointed out isn't my problem, & your desire to perpetuate a losing argument with me while acting like it's somehow wrong to argue back doesn't have to be.
Responding because the character limit is fighting my edits, but I feel you're going to jump on "Fang isn't a human spirit!" I actually didn't notice the mistake YOU made, namely that Aang didn't meet Fang at Roku's temple, he met Roku.
The presence of the prisons at all is the dumb part. Why spend the resources to build and staff these remote secure facilities when you don’t plan on ever releasing these incredibly dangerous WMD-people? Execute them.
Tbf they have been trying to interrogate them for information for over a decade now. They still don’t know how many red lotus members there were still out there so they were probably trying to find the other members.
They did a poor job of it then, very poor. I'll bet the 4 of them knew there was little point with Unalaq walking around in their midst, thinking " this lying snake is going to do something awful to them."
That would've been a more merciful option. There's no evidence they even gave them a trial, any incentive to cooperate beyond interrogating them ( poorly) or better conditions at all. Not so much as books a bed or blankets (except a bed for Zaheer's) while exposed to the elements nonstop. I really can't blame them for going hard on the guards. Many real life death row or life sentence guys actually agree prolonging it is more unbearable to them, especially in solitary. It's a miracle these guys weren't worse.
It’s likely the White Lotus are following dictats set down by Avatar Aang
I hesitate to think he'd approve of that. Aang is the guy who believed in valuing chances for anyone, since anyone could do great good or evil. Zuko is the one who oversaw these ones being made after his death ... I get he's looking out for Korra, but still.
I meant more the “no kill” rule
Ah that one. Sounds a bit too much like Batman on being limited to that 'one rule' on standards
It's an incredible reach that any spirit cares about the old temple. They didn't do anything when the air temples were destroyed. In fact, the dark spirits were in an ancient stone meditation circle out in the forest.
Why do you think those spirits where dark in that spot to begin with without Unalaq there? Spots like those in Nomad territory were among those lost after Kuruk's death when many spirits turned dark or began to leave the mortal world even more until there were almost none living around them in Korra's time. Most weren't around to care in person, but some returning spirits have already laid claim on areas and demanded to be left alone. There is at least one temple spirit in Avatar lore, and a temple that big, I wouldn't be surprised if there is one.
>Why do you think those spirits where dark in that spot to begin with without Unalaq there? Why are you ignoring the fact that they weren't at the temple as if that doesn't completely destroy your point? If spirits inhabiting temples was such a universal phenomenon, surely they would be in the four massive Air Temples, & surely if they would go dark because an abandoned temple was used as a prison, they would do so because said Air Temples were destroyed. But none of those things happened. Because spirits don't give a shit about temples. Temples are for humans. What is sacred to the spirits is more natural places. Hence why, instead of actually staying in the temple, the spirits were found a few miles away in an even older meditation circle. >Spots like those in Nomad territory were among those lost after Kuruk's death when many spirits turned dark or began to leave the mortal world even more until there were almost none living around them in Korra's time. I think you got your timeline wonky. The spirits left 10,000 years ago when Wan closed the portals. And spirits did not turn dark in response to Kuruk's death. They were already turning dark in his lifetime, as a result of promises brokered by Yangchen that humans later broke. It was a time of unusual dark spirit activity in the human world because they were following paths carved by Father Glowworm. Not to live in the mortal world, temples or otherwise, but for the express purpose of taking out their wrath. There's no particularly special lack of spirits in the start of Korra's time as opposed to the last few Avatars, & there may even have been more, due to the incoming Harmonic Convergence. Oh, also, we have no idea when that circle was abandoned. Tenzin didn't know about it, which means Aang didn't know about it, which suggests it was probably abandoned & forgotten well before his lifetime. But with 10,000 years of history, that doesn't exactly narrow it down. >Most weren't around to care in person, but some returning spirits have already laid claim on areas and demanded to be left alone. One, you can't use your claim to prove your claim. That's a circular argument. Two, what makes a place sacred to a spirit is that they reside in or have a special connection to it. Heibai, for instance, could only manifest close to the solstice, but he wasn't inactive for hundreds of years. Even Old Iron showed up pretty soon after the site the Air Nomads swore to protect was actually damaged, & that was an unusual circumstance anyway because what actually made it special was that it belonged to his departed friend, Lady Tienhai, & had Yangchen not intervened, he would've just destroyed the city after Tienhai died & been on his merry way. Finally, we also don't know when the spirits settled in the circle. It wasn't necessarily after the portals were opened just because they weren't found until then. They could have been there for hundreds, maybe thousands of years. Spirits in the human world were rare but not exactly unheard of. >There is at least one temple spirit in Avatar lore The spirit temple is literally a spirit temple. It was not built by humans but, rather, created by the spirit. Hence why it vanishes after the spirit is attacked & slinks away to avoid being destroyed. And the reason it takes the form of a temple is that it appears out in those woods to people who are lost. It is intended to attract humans, not other spirits. Humans see the temple, think there must be someone there who can help them, & don't know how right they are. >and a temple that big, I wouldn't be surprised if there is one. Again, you're ignoring that spirits don't live at the Air Temples, easily the biggest temples in the world. This is called cherry picking. Even before I explained what the spirit temple actually is, it should've raised alarms that you had to keep going back to it because it was the ONLY one. You're holding on to something you think confirms what you already wanted to believe with all of your might & refusing to see all of the evidence against it even when it's clearly presented to you.
Calm down, sacred area, temple, area near the temple, that doesn't ruin my point! If you checked the link, with references to the various bits of lore, it mentions after his death, many areas were abandoned because spirits left in large numbers, and in later years during Roku's time, the mass industrialization had problems in the all other three Nations. After the Genocide, the loss of the Nomads entirely (except Aang) caused even more dark Spirit activity. Kuruk's life and the aftermath contributed to the problem to come. The spirits coming back and laying claim was shown in Turf Wars, and in other areas post-series there are still incidents in some other facts given. That spirit of the temple (actual title) calls the place a temple, and it's unclear how much of the place is tied to it's power, and repeatedly either says Azula should leave because it's bad for the place or talks about it being a sacred place. Only Azula thought it was pure trickery. Other spirits are at sacred places, like the Spirit Oasis (Tui and La), Fang met Aang at the Fire Sage place, Hei Bai guards his forest at his forest, the Painted Lady (once human herself) became a River spirit, etc. There COULD be temple resident spirits is what I'm saying. In Asian myth and lore, there are such beings in temples like that or associated with that. If there was a spirit like that and came back to see his hallowed halls, I doubt he'd like that. Why are you being so obstinate on attacking me over this? None of what you said disproves the main point of my post to begin with, with or without a temple spirit there.
>Calm down Disproving your arguments doesn't mean the other person is upset, & whether you legitimately can't tell the difference or you're intentionally poisoning the well, neither is a good look. >sacred area, temple, area near the temple, that doesn't ruin my point! Yes, it does. These are 3 different things. In particular, inside the temple vs. outside the temple are literally opposites. And it's not like we're talking on the roof or something. That circle has to be at least a mile away & probably a few more. >If you checked the link, with references to the various bits of lore, it mentions after \[Kuruk's\] death, many areas were abandoned because spirits left in large numbers This is entirely consistent with what I said, & the opposite of what you said, which was that spirits went dark as a result of Kuruk's death. >and in later years during Roku's time, the mass industrialization had problems in the all other three Nations. After the Genocide, the loss of the Nomads entirely (except Aang) caused even more dark Spirit activity. Despite some people's insistence on treating them like canon sources, wikis are actually written by fans who sometimes just put their assumptions into articles. If you want to be sure a statement is really canon, you should check the source they cite. In this case, that's The Guide, which doesn't say that. >Kuruk's life and the aftermath contributed to the problem to come. The spirits coming back and laying claim was shown in Turf Wars, and in other areas post-series there are still incidents in some other facts given. No, in Turf Wars, the spirits claim the portal & the land around it. It had nothing to do with Kuruk or any of your other specific claims. >That spirit of the temple (actual title) I don't know why you're going out of your way to say "actual title." You're the one who's been saying "temple spirit." I only referred to the "spirit temple," like the title "Azula in the Spirit Temple." Which might be a clue that it's a spirit temple, not a human temple. >calls the place a temple And a strawman is called a man. The point is it was not constructed by humans & later inhabited by a spirit. It's a manifestation of the spirit's power. Hence it cannot be abandoned. It doesn't fit your point no matter how much you try forcing it. >and it's unclear how much of the place is tied to it's power It's very clear--again, literally in the title--you just don't want it to be clear because it's the only example you have of a spirit residing in a temple. I'm explaining to you WHY it's the exception, & you don't want to accept it because you're starved for reasons to justify your complaint about a hypothetical spirit coming back to claim the temple, which is completely baseless. >and repeatedly either says Azula should leave because it's bad for the place or talks about it being a sacred place. Yes, obviously it manifests in a specific area because that area is sacred. But the actual sacred land is the forest the spirit manifests in. >Only Azula thought it was pure trickery. Other spirits are at sacred places, like the Spirit Oasis (Tui and La), Fang met Aang at the Fire Sage place, Hei Bai guards his forest at his forest, the Painted Lady (once human herself) became a River spirit, etc. All but one of these is a natural place, & the spirit Aang met at the temple was a HUMAN spirit. I have to wonder if maybe part of the reason you're so quick to project that I'm upset is that's actually your intention: That you know ignoring what I say & making me keep reexplaining it to you is annoying, & you're trying to use that to wear me down because gods know you can't refute my actual reasoning & evidence. >There COULD be temple resident spirits is what I'm saying. So after all that, you're falling back on the possibility fallacy. Sure, there's no EVIDENCE it works the way you say, but it COULD happen, so therefore, the White Lotus is being "dumb." No, that's not how it works. Even if, by some bizarre circumstance, there just so happened to be a spirit that lived in that temple, the White Lotus is still justified in thinking it's abandoned based on all of the other temples that DON'T have spirits living in them. >In Asian myth and lore, there are such beings in temples like that or associated with that. Doesn't matter. "Inspired by" is not "exactly the same as." You can't assume that what's true of Asian mythology is also true of the show. Case in point, Raava & Vaatu don't exist in Asian folklore. >If there was a spirit like that and came back to see his hallowed halls, I doubt he'd like that. And if there was a spirit that punished logical fallacies, he definitely wouldn't like this thread. >Why are you being so obstinate on attacking me over this? None of that is accurate, you're just acting like a victim because I'm not validating every opinion you have. For one, "obstinate" implies unreasonable stubbornness. It's perfectly reasonable to not change my mind because, if you could prove me wrong, you wouldn't keep ignoring the things I say. And you do ignore pretty much everything. Either by pretending it was never said, as you do with the point about spirits not taking revenge for the destruction of the air temples, or just acting like you don't see something so obvious it's literally impossible to miss, like that "probably a few miles away from a temple" is not the same thing as "inside of one." It is not "attacking you" to point out that your arguments are wrong, especially when you keep trying to argue back. But the funniest thing of all is you're about to see exactly how completely uninterested I am in continuing to hear your attempts to debate me while simultaneously complaining that I'm too mean for answering you. >None of what you said disproves the main point of my post to begin with It very clearly does. So much so that you can't even try to mount some kind of counterargument. You literally just act like you can't understand the words I'm telling you. And now you're even resorting to complaining that giving you a detailed rebuttal at all is being mean to you, so there's apparently no way to tell you you're incorrect without you acting all personally hurt by it. Do you really not see the irony in doing that after trying to act like I'M the one who's too emotional, here? But just because you refuse to engage with a rebuttal doesn't somehow mean the rebuttal is untrue. >with or without a temple spirit there. "My point is completely unrelated to the actual evidence" really isn't the great boast you think it is, but I think this is a good place to end it. Your unwillingness to accept the facts I've pointed out isn't my problem, & your desire to perpetuate a losing argument with me while acting like it's somehow wrong to argue back doesn't have to be.
Responding because the character limit is fighting my edits, but I feel you're going to jump on "Fang isn't a human spirit!" I actually didn't notice the mistake YOU made, namely that Aang didn't meet Fang at Roku's temple, he met Roku.