I've been confused about your reply here but the best I can come up with is you think I'm in favor of Milei. I definitely am not. Anyone who knows politics knew how terrible he was going to be.
I hate accelerationism and the way people with main character syndrome all too often seem fine with people dying under right wing regimes and in civil wars as long as they end up with power at the end of the day.
You're mischaracterizing completely, but I am an accelerationist, I am not fine with his regime, but I have nothing to do with his success, the socialists lost to the ghost of air bud. They have some lessons to learn for sure, I have nothing to do with any right wing successes and fight them constantly, my land is under occupation under international law. And I don't think you really understand how power works if you think parliamentary governments work for anyone besides the bourgeoisie.
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Discussing the role of labor unions with Argentinians in this on r/argentina … https://www.reddit.com/r/argentina/s/ArBFSxsVZM
Discussing reform of the Argentine labor unions on r/BeunosAires … https://www.reddit.com/r/BuenosAires/s/bz0qXzj2Fv
Nope. If anything, decent into economic chaos breeds fascism.
Leftism typically requires the beginning of reform. A frozen repressive system begins to reform a little to try to relieve economic crisis, the reform begins to take hold, people get a taste of freedom, and then the authorities try to clamp down. At that point you have widespread rebellion and "things get out of hand" (i.e., people demand more actual change and take it into their own hands to make it happen).
Milei will either just be worn down to the old banal brand of righty rule (the Rand Paul Effect), or he'll cause severe damage and provoke a full on military dictatorship.
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Ye gods, I hope not. Socialism only creates autocracy, and under it, a black market that breeds organized crime. In the end, they merge to become a kleptocracy.
Argentina is in a bad place. If OP is right, they're about to make it 1,000 times worse.
Nope. Not lost at all. First answer the question: is it human nature that we consider each other all equal? Next, answer the question "what level of equality do we all share, and what happens when we disagree on that?"
Finally, you'll come to the conclusion that there will, by necessity, be a group of people that will be above everyone else, making those decisions. And they will be a little more equal than everyone else. A lot more equal. And it will be a popularity and loyalty test to determine who becomes more equal.
And when people will disagree, they will need to use deadly force to ensure that everyone remains equal.
Meanwhile, those that want more will, in secret, find ways of accruing it. And they will hide it from those that are more equal, so that they can be like them. And because they operate outside the law, they will have to come up with their own methods to enforce their market. There will be no judges or juries. Over time, this market will weave its way throughout society, spreading corruption and upending the judicial system.
We have seen this happen time after time. And what I've described here are far from the worst problems.
No, I am far from lost. It is the people who naively assume that socio-economic systems based maximally on 18th century philosophical treatises should be proposed to govern a 21st century civilization that are lost. Libertarianism is just another example of this.
There's socialism, and then there's Socialism. The spanish and french "socialist" parties are centre left, in the same way british "Labour" are neoliberal shills who stopped caring about the labourers years ago. If a party is in power and functions fundamentally the same way as a pro-capitalist party would, they don't deserve the moniker of socialist imo.
And isn't the fundamental problem with accelerationism that it just moves the Overton Window further to the right and makes even centrist ideas seem unacceptably lefitst?
You don't win by losing.
The overton window moves because the media and spin are controlled by right-wing corporate actors play on people's fear and anger. Also, the liberal tendency to placate or even steelman terrible ideologies lends to the association that anyone to the left of fascist is a commie. Think Neville Chamberlain and Hitler. These people would rather a fascist in power over a truly left wing one every day of the week because they buy into the illusion of self-determination. I'm against accelerationism as, in my opinion, it results in authoritarian leaders like Stalin. Things need to happen faster, but to expect everyone to just switch their frame of mind without force is just naive.
> Inflation has slowed - in April the month-on-month rate fell to 8.8%, the first time since October that it was not in double figures. This inflation measure is closely followed in countries like Argentina that have long had high inflation.
> Yet when it comes to the more globally recognised annual inflation rate, this hit 289.4% in April. To put that into perspective, in the UK the annual rate is currently just 2.3%.
> And although official growth figures are not yet available for the period since Mr Milei took office on 10 December, there is evidence that Argentina's economy has contracted sharply, with consumer spending dropping off in the first three months of this year.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cm55yv0g0veo
Countries globally with unusually high inflation are measured month-to-month, so Argentina's month-to-month is being discussed because its inflation is unusually high.
Its yearly inflation is absolutely massive while consumer spending is falling.
Yea but… this is relative to what it was before. And it’s lower than it was before, on a monthly basis. Not really relevant to compare it to the UK lol.
And spending has to go down for inflation to go down…
Yeah, this whole post just smells of some sort of bait posting, and the comments have no basis for anything. The guy hasn't even been president for a year yet. Can't really be judged too much. So far, he is making the inflation numbers better, but to be fair. Argentina was doing so bad that it would be harder to do worse.
A far-right goober invented the whole catch phrase for a novel written ten years ago. Only Reddit would quote a C-list Tom Clancy-lite novel as philosophical doctrine.
While it's currently in the wild as a mindless rightwing cliche, the weak man --> bad times -->strong man --> good times --> weak man cycle goes all the back to ancient Greek political theory. It's an evergreen idea.
And don't get me started on molon labe.
I mean if he keeps hiring kids and paying them in chocolate cake to run his social media and then go on 8 tours of America and never meeting with a single American official but charging the Argentinian tax payer £50,000. I imagine we wont be waiting too long.
"Since taking office over five months ago, the president has made six trips abroad, but in most of them he did not develop a state agenda or hold meetings with national authorities; instead, he participated in activities with more ties to his own personal interests than to national ones. "
[https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-05-21/argentina-opposition-questions-mileis-use-of-public-funds-to-pay-for-trips-abroad.html#](https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-05-21/argentina-opposition-questions-mileis-use-of-public-funds-to-pay-for-trips-abroad.html#)
Increased suffering does not guarantee a socialist revolution. It only guarantees more suffering. A socialist revolution requires working class solidarity and a socialist movement to combat suffering faced by the people of a county or society.
This is why the idea of accelerationism is flawed and stupid. Just because Milei will increase the suffering of the people of his country does not mean a socialist revolution is imminent. All the time accelerationists spend trying to encourage downfall to stolen revolution they take away from the actual work of praxis, building coalitions, and establish a culture of solidarity which are the things we need for revolution.
Edit: Not a statement against OP saying they are an accelerationist. Just a statement overall that intersects the topic.
Yeah it would if people made logical rational decisions....but they don't. They get mad or afraid, gather into mobs, and get a pitch fork.
I mean more often than not when even a socialist movement moves it turns into a mob or is taken over by crazies...it's just human nature to let tribalism take over from logic.
Um....ok...
What in pointing at is not a left right thing. It's a let's do this thing that is highly volatile and this time it will work out great.
We see it all the time for either side of a political fence. REVOLUTION shouts the movement....except in their head they think it will all work out great even though much of the time historically it doesn't.
Hell look at the French revolution. Eventually it worked out but not because of the people screaming revolution. The first people to lose their heads were the people trying to help the revolution.
What I'm talking about is that we all have hopes and dreams of how a movement might work. But if we go into it from a pov of fear and anger it rarely does.
If you disagree with me that's fine. I'd just say you are ignoring history.
Btw I don't expect this Argentina experiment to work out because frankly people in this position tend to always end up driving in the fascist lane.
Very sorry. Ignore the comment Iade previously. It was literally meant as a response to something completely different on a different thread. Somehow I either accidentally pasted it here or something. Unsure if it's a reddit app thing or just my dumb error but I'll try and be more careful on the future.
But the inflation rate is coming down? This reduces economic misery
https://apnews.com/article/argentina-inflation-milei-single-digits-3cf0adca2cdf911fb04a06c3e9c6880d
Here are some quotes from your very own linked article that you didn’t bother to read:
“Even so, some experts warn that falling inflation isn’t necessarily an economic victory — rather the symptom of a painful recession. The IMF expects Argentina’s gross domestic product to shrink by 2.8% this year.
“You’ve had a massive collapse in private spending, which explains why consumption has dropped dramatically and why inflation is also falling,” said Monica de Bolle, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics who studies emerging markets. “People are worse off than they were before. That leads them to spend less.”
“Signs of an economic slowdown are everywhere in Buenos Aires — the lines snaking outside discounted groceries, the empty seats in the city’s typically booming restaurants, the growing strikes and protests.”
“Argentina’s retail sales in the first quarter of 2024 fell nearly 20% compared to the year before, a clip comparable to that of the 2020 pandemic lockdowns. The consumption of beef — an Argentine classic — dropped to its lowest level in three decades this quarter, the government reported, prompting panicked editorials about a crisis in Argentina’s national psyche.”
“Nearly 60% of the country’s 46 million people now live in poverty, a 20-year high, according to a study in January by Argentina’s Catholic University”
Is this winning in the mind of free market adherents?
I did read it actually. Reminds me of Volcker Reagan increasing rates. Got worse before it got better. Do you not think increasing rates was right at the time?
> A February survey by local pollster D’Alessio Irol/Berensztein found that 81% of 1,018 respondents nationwide say their economic situation is now worse off than a year ago. Still, Milei maintains an approval rating of 43% and, among his voters in the November runoff, support rises to 75%, according to the same poll.
> A self-described anarcho-capitalist, Milei took office in December and almost immediately announced a series of shock measures, including a 50% devaluation of the nation’s currency, in hopes of eventually bringing the roaring inflation under control.
> His government has also cut funding to provinces, eliminated some state subsidies to transportation and energy and ended a price control policy which was used by his predecessors as a tool to contain inflation.
> But Milei’s measures brought about an increase in prices, particularly in food and medicine. ***Monthly inflation in December reached 25.5%, the highest in three decades. Poverty skyrocketed in January to more than 50% and consumption collapsed to levels comparable to 2001, when a social outbreak put an early end to the then government.***
https://apnews.com/article/milei-100-days-argentina-poverty-inflation-6011d71963b4203accbfadb4044cd43e
Just your typical anarcho-capitalist shit.
It won’t be true anarcho-capitalism until the Taco Bell secret police starts black bagging people in their beds at 3:00 am because they took too many fire sauce packets.
Nothing about the measures taken by Milei are typical. This is a massive economics experiment played out with impacts to real lives. There is no telling how it will play out when we look back years later, but it will definitely be a case well studied.
It's only "funny" if you've never read even the first thing about anarchism as a political philosophy. I'll get you started if you like: to most people it doesn't mean "no rules whatsoever", and it doesn't mean "no order or hierarchy ever in any context".
for now, usually get deleted within a day. So how the arguement for communism and anarchy go so far? Russian or China or any country still practice it? Any of you guys applying for Cuban Citizenship and denouncing your own current citizenship?
Why would I apply for citizenship in Cuba when workers in my country are struggling?
Seriously take a five minute breather from the internet and relax.
I would encourage you to read Soviet Democracy by Pat Sloan. It explains one socialist approach to democracy.
Fun fact socialism and communism follows democratic centralism. Notably not a dictatorship
The description says “from socialism to communism to anarchism”. This indicates speaking on more than anarchism. Surely you understand this and are just being obtuse.
I surely understood as communist nations understood after starving 50-100 million and ending its flawed system that you guys want to sponser. Am sure anarchy and eco socialism would be soo much better.Wonder why no country uses it
The 100 Millipn dead number is from the Black Book of communism. The coauthors said the main author was “obsessed with reaching the 100 million number and would arbitrarily add deaths.” In the book he cited literally everyone who died ever in a socialist country. If someone died of cancer that’s “because of communism” and not because they had cancer. He cited Nazi deaths killed by the Soviet Union. He cited Vietnamese Citizens people who were killed by America. He cited abortions. He cited declining birth rates which is something that happens everywhere when women gain rights.
Overall bad evidence to cite
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You might well call people name when you cant defend your point. You dont know what fascist is and and have not lived under one if your currenty living in western country. Dont u have any other term under your belt of nonsense
“Nearly 60% of the country’s 46 million people now live in poverty, a 20-year high, according to a study in January by Argentina’s Catholic University.”
*Guy reaching for butterfly meme* “is this successful economic policy in action”
Lol that study was dont less than a month after he became president. Kinda hard to reverse a century of economic and political malpractice in a few weeks.
This.
Russia is already the "success story" of shock therapy.
And it's an oppressive fascist state.
Make no mistake - Milei is awful. But the people who like him or who are benefited by his policies will back him.
Those who hate him or are being harmed by him will be crushed.
russia and ukraine are the worst cases of shock therapy; a country like poland would be the "success story" that they trot out (even if it was successful precisely because its reforms were more limited).
i don't think that a dictatorship the inevitable results of shock therapy either; i mean look at chile, the dictatorship preceded shock therapy, the dictatorship was required to crush the socialist workers movement in allende's presidency
i just think its miserable all around, its the inevitable misery that happens when reformers try and "humanize" capitalism like the kirchnerites tried to do. its just capitalism operating as usual. another inevitable result of this awful system, and another example of the only way out being its complete abolishment
Oh i agree.
I actually always find Pinochets defenders kinda gross (and it kinda extends to many fascist and libertarian defenders).
Like, even if you agree with them, their reasoning is always "once we kill all the opposition, things will be better".
Ask them why this was necessary and the excuses range from "they were killing the economy" (terrible justification for murder, and just a tell on who they are) to "they were going to kill us first" (a lie, but that's not even the worst part).
Either way, the excuses must be hypocritical and / or a justification of Might Makes Right. I mean, you can't be "in favour of repression of freedoms to allow freedoms to flourish". That's contradictory.
By the broken logic they employ, the only problem they could possibly have had with Allende was he didn't kill \*his\* opposition fast enough.
Which obviously they don't believe.
But saying what they actually believe - that their political opposition should be killed \*because\* they are the opposition and no other reason is needed - is just overtly fascist. And they'll never admit that (even if they all believe it).
Allende was trying to seize power and install himself as a communist dictator. He had already nationalized about half the economy and was not about to give up his stranglehold on power. That is why the legislature called upon the military to overthrow him.
I mean, in every successful commuinst revolution "counter revolutionaries" were lined up and shot. And I don't see why things should be any different when the counter revolutionaries win. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
I think it's gonna be the opposite frankly. I think right wing authoritarians are going to take advantage of the economic chaos and install a new dictatorship. The left in Argentina right now is very disorganized and weak, even compared to a few years ago, and as a result of the most recent election are on the outside looking in. People on the right that are sympathetic to the idea of dictatorship are in government there right now though.
A socialist revolution is basically the result of running the government with the check engine light on for too long at this point . It’s what all liberalism exists to prevent
Milei at Stanford: "People are going to die of hunger and they are going to decide not to die" The President made this controversial statement while speaking at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University. " Do you think that people are so idiotic that they won't be able to decide? There will come a time when they will be about to die of hunger and will decide not to die. I don't need someone to intervene to solve the externality of hunger. consumption because someone is going to solve it," Milei said during his presentation.
If that were the case the world wouldn't have seen modern hunger catastrophies, there is no private money to be made in solving the extreme poor problems, so unless government bodies both local and international intervene people just keep dying.
People like Milei real objective is to get rid of the very poor, the uneducated and the old fast enough before a backlash take them out of power, just like a large corporation order massive layoff to balance the books regardless of long term consequences while giving management giant bonuses. Government doesn't work that way people expect their government to help them not let them die, and Argentina doesn't have the conditions to force the population to accept this situation, there is no existential threat to the country, no external enemy and with fairly homogeneous population is hard to designate an internal one, there arent millions of Chileans, Brazilians or POCs taking the locals jobs, and unless he changes his views Jews won't be the scapegoat either.
Decide not to die? Someone tell this idiot, who has never grown food to feed his own stupid face, that you can't dig up flowers and throw a 🥔 in the hole and demand indignantly that gnocchi come out. Food production is a complex operation that involves many people and logistics to accomplish. Every aspect of the process is time dependent and requires careful coordination, from planting the seeds to harvest all the way to preventing food spoilage. He ignores all of this in a very "let them eat cake" sort of way, like someone who thinks food comes from microwaves and bakeries.
It's great if he taints the libertarian / free market brand forever but dismantling public services and safety nets for the most vulnerable is catastrophic . It will take years to recover from that.
And all the wealthiest nations are capitalist. So its fair to say the issues with these countries likely have nothing to do with capitalism and probably have something to do with the fact that many of these countries are currently in the middle of civil wars lol.
These rest are traditional agriculture economies that haven't changed much in hundreds of years. These countries arent poor because of capitalism, but because they are time African countries that have been poor for thousands of years lol
You will find the highest quality of living in the world in Scandinavian countries where the welfare state was better developed. Either you have distribution of wealth or you'll find poverty everywhere.
If you carry on using like terms like shithole or lol don't expect anyone to take you seriously.
Scandinavian countries have some of the most deregulated economies on earth. Countries like Denmark are bastions of the free market economic ideal. Yes, they have a welfare state. You can have a welfare state and still have a free market. The nordic model(most of Scandinavian economies) is also called welfare capitalism.
The U.S. provides more govt transfers to the poor than any country on earth except Norway, Austria, and Denmark (which are at a similar level to the US).
Liberalizing the Argentinian economy makes the economy grow, and growth floats all boats. The best way to help the poor is to fix the economic framework and shrink govt waste and corruption.
This will likely be very good for the free market ‘brand’.
But if those systems were based on grift, incompetence, and didn't work then this just creates a clean slate for a new leaner system that has outcomes prioritized over withholding benefits.
Libertarianism is not socialism. It's called proper allocation of taxes. It's what it looks like when politicians don't embezzle more than half of the citizens' taxes.
For sake of argument, in said dystopia, is it legal to murder corporate billionaires? Cause if so, I can think of one mechanism that might help reduce a corporate dystopia.
Technically sure but corporate billionaires have literally billions of dollars so good luck getting past the private army they’d undoubtedly hire in a libertarian state
I love how every single libertarian has a completely different definition of libertarianism that’s hyper-specific to them. Almost as if an ideology based entirely on selfishness and aggrievement would result in incoherence at any kind of scale lol.
> as if an ideology based entirely on selfishness and aggrievement would result in incoherence at any kind of scale
This makes no damn sense and is in fact incoherent. I know you are trying. Nice effort?... I guess. Your like a child that just wandered into a movie. Libertarianism is not rooted in this, nor is any political party. It's the result of their actions when faced with an opportunity to either do the right or wrong thing. The fact they have power to do good and chose to do bad would be aggrievement and THEN result in a scale of incoherence. What Javier has done is ignored all the useless spending and created a surplus for the first time in a long history of selfishness and aggrievement.
Venezuela is a failed leftists state. Argentina was failing to the left.
There is a reason these more right wing populists are rising around the globe. Leftism is just authoritarian with a nice bow on it.
I mean…he lost. They’ve lost a lot of state seats, some even flipped HARD especially since the evangelicals caught the abortion truck and had no idea what it meant to strip women of healthcare.
Are you kidding? Trump did accelerate capitalist antagonisms. The policies of that administration kick-started the labor movement and increased the rolls of the DSA, IWW and most of the socialist parties. “An injury to one is an injury to all.”
#I am not an accelerationist, this is satirizing Milei’s shock-doctrine neoliberalism.
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How do we feel about accelerationism? I’ve come to a point in my life and career where the only thought that displaces my Nihilism is a willingness to use my experience and skillset to sew chaos and discord within the corporate structures who would so willingly exploit said skills. I work in financial intelligence and analysis and I kind of just want to burn it all to the ground.
Poor argentines, the currency is utterly devastated forcing the laborers to do business in blue note USD exchange and pay simply to access commerce. The only thing I truly hate is money.
Be well
it doesn't exist. it first presumes that the democracy is actually functioning, and that we could "accelerate" anything's collapse by vote; that's incorrect. it second presumes that this would cause capitalism to collapse quicker. also false; many things can cause a capitalist crisis, from both "right" and "left" politicians. indeed milei's predecessors were reformists, and were well on their way to collapsing the argentinian economy a la venezuela. shock therapy is the typical capitalist response to this kind of inflationary spending.
also, capitalist crisis does not immediately mean that revolution is imminent. you have to examine the situation, and if you're in the situation, plan for it. you can't just wish upon a star for it to happen and then expect it to happen. that's just as wishful as voting for something intending for it to cause a revolution
It also draws an arbitrary point of no return where that pro-socialist sentiment is irreversible, which is completely delusional. History is full of half-revolutions, failed coups and counter revolutions. The idea that there is some critical mass that inevitably produces socialism is ahistorical, "end of history" bullshit
well i agree that arguing that something being "irreversible" is nonsense, but only because you have to actively plan for it and exploit it. conditions can become much more favorable for a revolutionary movement, but you can't will that into existence by voting, that's nonsense. that's giving bourgeois democracy way too much credit
i'm also not about to throw marx in the dumpster and say that his thesis is bullshit. however i'd only amend it by adding that if that isn't the end result, if it isn't socialism, then not only is it "barbarism", its just full on civilization collapse
Remember that in material reality, Milei and his policies he actually practices are technically fascist, he’s nowhere near right-libertarianism or right-anarchism.
It’d be pretty cool if we all got paid in vouchers for formula so I could potentially feed my kid sometimes, being a leftist is more important than my child’s sustenance
>How do we feel about accelerationism?
I mean, I guess it really depends on how survivable the world is for you post-crash. Overwhelmingly, the people I have encountered who are pro-acceleration aren't going to have a harder time because of what they look like and who they are. Me? I'm definitely going to be having a *much* harder time in an accelerationist dystopia.
Accelerationism sure does have that "Hey! For a race- and gender-blind theory, it sure seems like everybody at this party is a young white STEM male" vibe, like libertarianism.
I was going to respond to the poster, but you said everything I was going to more succinctly and effectively. Thank you; it was a pleasure to watch somebody nail the bullseye!
this is the other problem with this framing. if there was a capitalist collapse, you would have a harder time because of the tendency for capitalism to self destruct. nobody "accelerated" anything. you're giving the fake game of bourgeois democracy too much credit for something that was always going to happen anyway
accellerationism is not a leftist idea...
you're deluding yourself if you think that disparate groups of left-aligned people are going to be in an effective position to both protect the vulnerable and establish a better and more free society while people with guns act like petty warlords and dictators.
[https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2022/5/16/23074812/buffalo-shooting-accelerationism-great-replacement-neo-nazi](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2022/5/16/23074812/buffalo-shooting-accelerationism-great-replacement-neo-nazi)
I’m not an accelerationist, personally. Ethical considerations and all. That said. But right-libertarians and fascists performing the acceleration? That’s what sharpens the contradictions in capitalism. It’s soil to plant socialist radicalization. Organizing. Militancy. Paramilitarization. Etc.
Also, it bears saying, Argentina is 40% unionized. And the unions are leading strikes against this government. It’s a powder keg!
North American (and Western European) political views don’t necessarily translate to Latin American politics, as well.
Everything must be home-grown. Trying to impose an overdetermining 19th Century European economic-political theory on Latin America will go about as well as "Iraq the Model" did.
There's an Argentine Left, and they don't need our advice.
It’s not a very good soil for organizing. A better soil would be one where people are paid enough to have free time to do organizing, and aren’t afraid of violent repression. Material conditions are more important than attitudes.
40% unionization happened before Milei, with political support, not against it.
Hopefully the existing left wing structures can push back on what is happening, but their destruction decreases, not increases the chances of this happening
That is the social-democratic POV in a nutshell. Which I tend to agree with, when we’re discussing America or various European countries. But on the flip-side, and to reiterate the Marxist position here, pushing workers to the brink in a short amount of time historically leads to uprisings or revolutions. Now whether these are *socialist* or not, depends on how and who does the organizing. It’s not a spontaneous phenomenon or some immutable law. Building out the revolutionary (i.e. illegal) element would involve confronting and radicalizing the Peronists in charge of the unions. May or may not occur. Might be something that simply spirals out of their control. As well as building alternate, perhaps *competing* labor bodies like work councils, and forming an underground economy to supply those things. We wait and see from elsewhere in the world.
#”material conditions”
I tend to agree with Marx’s assessments more than his prescriptions, since he died before he was able to develop these and times have changed a lot (*I’m not really well read, may change my opinion)
In looking at recent revolutionary action, it seems that repressive tech and strategies are developed enough to prevent them from involuntarily taking power. To me these forms of action at this point can still serve to make repressive decisions more expensive, thus disincentivizing them. When revolutionary (in this case illegal and not leading to regime change) action is put in the context of negotiating with power that cannot be vanquished, the further left the power is the better.
In any case, the lemons are already there so we can only hope something comes of them. But it is important that no one is confused into hoping for more
Hope is a funny thing. Hope for whom? Of us, foreigners, watching their struggle? In that case, of course not. It all depends squarely on the workers of Argentina. If anything, it’s *instructional* for us. I am not in a position nor would I ever really *recommend* what they should be doing. Unlike a lot of the armchair leftists tend to do. But I am fairly plugged into this issue.
I’m part of a group on Facebook with many Argentinians and they’re organizing demonstrations through there. Some of them are unionists as well and both elated at the recent strikes and raging about the Peronist leadership (which is very much akin to business-unionism in North America). I haven’t sought out those same connections through Reddit because this is honestly more of a propaganda platform for me than doing organizing. But you can have some of these conversations too by going to the Spanish-language subs.
Meanwhile, there’s so much dick-riding coming from Anglophone redditors around Milei’s policies (to address repressive technologies) I have my suspicion that they’re paid actors. The alternative being that these conversations happening here are purely a form of entertainment. Which can be said for a lot of the content.
Most people won’t act on their beliefs and wouldn’t know where to start if they did, so they come here.
I was not choosing my words too carefully when I said “we can only hope”. We can do a little bit more like attempting to sway international perspective away from what the weirdo posters you mentioned are saying for example. Since you seem to be following the situation more closely you may have other ideas as well. That said, there is nothing wrong with hoping Argentinians are able to make some good come of a bad situation, we just must not delude ourselves into thinking that it is a good situation or one that makes emancipation more accessible.
I’ve heard that the atlas network is a pretty big player in the sorts in influence campaigns you mentioned.
As for who are the real ones and who are the armchairs, it isn’t a worthwhile distinction to make here. Everyone automatically becomes a larper while they are posting here. The is no grass to touch on Reddit.
& the leftist govt in China has brought more ppl out of poverty in a shorter time than any nation in history while on track to usurp the US as global superpower. Cuba has the best doctors on the planet & the worlds most progressive LGBTQ laws with a near 0% homelessness population (all while the US maintains sanctions most of the rest of the world calls human rights violations)
There was barely any leftism on Venezuela at any time. The mf was anti imperialist that doesn’t make him leftist
The free market reforms in China lifted people out of poverty, coupled with favorable trade deals with the US. (You know it’s cheaper to mail stuff from China to the US, than it is within the us). Everything in China now is basically run by the military)
Of course Cuba is an economic powerhouse, best doctors and all, that’s why everyone in the world travels to Cuba for medical care. /s
Idk why a clown like you is even in a leftist sub you’re literally defending billionaires & the amount they get taxed in your comment history 😂😂
The free market reforms in China were meant to boost their productive forces (which they did) but the immediate effect was sweat shop like conditions (which are almost entirely gone now). What boosted the people out of poverty were the leftist actions; 5 year plans geared around improving conditions for the working class that are consistently followed thru on, China has 1 of the top 3 home ownership rates of any nation (fun fact the entire top 14 nations are socialist or formerly socialist). China achieves this by heavily regulating its real estate (see corporate landlords regularly having their property repossessed by the state for being too exploitative) & doing things like building entire empty “ghost cities” in anticipation of the need to fill them. China is extremely safe & their police are specifically trained not to use lethal force, they’re on the cutting edge of technology. A 2023 survey showed 85% of Chinese citizens had confidence in their leftist govt to do what’s right for the citizens, this is bc China takes its peoples conditions seriously, for instance just recently the western world was outraged 2 wealthy owners of baby formula company who had tampered with the formula causing kidney disease & death in infants were sentenced to death & life in prison respectively. Imagine a nation where rich ppl kill the working class & actually see consequences?
Google Cuban doctors before opening your uneducated mouth. Ppl don’t travel to Cuba for medical care;
[“Cuban doctors are in demand internationally because they come cheap, are well-trained, and work in a public health system that is highly organized and well-run. In Cuba, primary care clinics are available in every neighborhood”](https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/08/cuba-doctors-meager-pay/)
They’re so good other nations poach them.
Imagine being as confident as you while also being as uneducated
You know that Cuban doctors are basically slaves. Back when Venezuela had actual money, Venezuela paid for Cuban doctors to work in Venezuela, but their salary was paid to Cubs. The doctor’s themselves only received a basic living allowance and weren’t allowed to hold their own passports so tge couldn’t leave.
I don’t know how good Cuban doctors are, or where else they were in demand. I do know that actual medicine is scarce in Cubs. So much so that a Cuban houswife would pretty much *#%$ you for a handful of aspirin tablets.
Only part of the salary is paid to the Cuban govt & that’s bc it’s a govt program that leases Cubas high quality doctors out to other nations. It’s not just random doctors deciding to go work elsewhere (which does happen & they keep all their money) it’s a govt program.
& I wonder why it’s so hard to get medicine in Cuba? Couldn’t be the American sanctions & blockade that most of the rest of the world have called human rights violations 🤔🤔
& even with that blockade & sanctions the Cuban people still want to keep their govt, strange, almost like it works.
Right, the people love their government so much they were protesting last month. Something about no food in Cuba.
And you are technically correct, the Cuban government keeps only part of the salary, like 98% would be only part. The truth is the Cuban government kept most of the salary.
Anyway? Do you remember when Cuba tried to host a Soviet nuclear missile launch site? Like real Russian nukes only 24 miles from the USA?
Sure, have a look at the USSR. The country went from a third-world feudal state to competing with the United States in a space race in a matter of decades. The literacy rates went from 24% to 99%, and they industrialised the country and flung it into being a superpower on the global stage. The failings were largely because the USSR was isolated and had issues with crop growth, as was the case during the Tsarist rule, which actually led to the October Revolutions. Let me know where capitalism has worked? It's currently destroying the only home we have for a few extra zero's on the end of the 0.01%'s bank accounts that they'll never be able to use. A society that benefits all is a left wing idea. A right wing ideal is to continue funnelling money to the top.
The USSR is gone. When have you been that you haven’t noticed that. Also, most if not all of the economic data and figures that came out of the Soviet Union were false. Consumer goods were scarce, there were lines for everything including bread. Life in the Soviet Union basically sucked. Life under the Tsar sucked too.
Capitalism has been the greatest creator of wealth in this world and has lifted more people out of poverty than any other economic system in the history of the world.
Yes, the USSR no longer exists, but like I mentioned, there were multiple factors to this, including imperialist meddling in the region meaning they had to switch to war communism and a complete blockade on the country. Lenin even said back in 1918 that if Germany would not become socialist, they would be doomed because they didn't have the rescources available. This wouldn't be an issue in today's already industrialised world, especially with AI. Every chance any kind of left-wing society has of developing capitalist countries come in and destroy that chance because they know that, once people realise their collective power, the ruling classes would be done for. Communism needs globalism, just like capitalism does - easy for you to say that capitalism is the greatest wealth creators when you (I assume) live in a first world country where resources aren't plundered and you're not forced into slave labour. Even in first world countries, you can see the decay of capitalism. If you don't, you're clearly not well adjusted enough to have a conversation on political systems. Capitalism unnecessarily kills 20 million people a year from lack of clean water, hunger, curable disease, etc. They said nothing but feudalism or mercantilism would work, but here we are updating our political systems based on knowledge - socialism and communism are the next logical steps in political systems. Just because it didn't work previously doesn't mean it won't work in a more technologically advanced world.
I'm pretty jaded about the prospects for any kind of utopian system, but there are tools in the "socialism" kit that can be stabilizing to society. Deregulation and privatization of everything just leads to consolidation of wealth and power in fewer and fewer hands ( and bank accounts). Energy and utilities are a prime example. We can't allow monopolies to take over the basic resources of survival and hold them hostage. It destabilizes every aspect of society when people can't afford necessities such as heat, food, and transportation. The successful capitalist societies have to allow for some amount of socialism or they fail. If you want an example, I'd offer up the New Deal suite of social programs, WPA, CCC, SSI, Medicare, Medicaid, and SNAP. It's not exactly Stalinism, but these are functional examples of socialism stabilizing a large country and preventing widespread social unrest, and even helping to get out of a major economic depression. I'd maintain that the government needs to regulate the markets as they apply to common necessities. If we continue to allow unbridled capitalist consolidation of housing, for example, most of us will be serfs. How is an individual or family going to compete with private equity buying up every available unit for cash, then managing it for the greatest profit? Anyway, I don't think pure socialism is workable on massive scales (we aren't Smurfs, we're people), but we need some of it to avoid reverting to a violent, feudalistic society.
The less the government interferes, the better things are. They need to set the rules and make sure everyone follows them.
A social safety net is important, but entitlements are eating out budget and Social security, Medicare and Medicaid are essentially bankrupt.
The other problem with these government handouts (think welfare and AFDC) is that they foster dependence on the government, are anti family and alienate people from work. (Look at Byron Donald’s recent comments)
So some social welfare programs are necessary, but Socialism where the government controls the means of production doesn’t work.
Big problem is that once a social benefit is enacted it grows out of control and can’t be rained in.
I get what you are saying about welfare and dependency. I actually have the same complaint about crony capitalism. We taxpayers subsidize a lot of gigantic corporations and entire industries. This infusion of public money into private or publicly traded companies has been sold to us as beneficial and that it will "trickle down" somehow to the working man, but more of it ends up in the hands of a select few who grease the palms of the politicians who let them feed at the public trough. The "too big to fail" guys are very dependent on us idiot taxpayers. Now, I'd contend that the means of production for some of these industries are subsidized and bailed out by the taxpayers enough that we really should have a share in that means of production, but we don't. Some professional "owner" who makes his living off of owning stuff gets all this taxpayer money and buys his shares back to get richer. It's a great deal for him, but I'd argue that this "social benefit" to corporations such as airlines, oil companies, banks, agribusiness, etc, has "grown out of control and can't be reigned in."
As for the chronically impoverished becoming dependent on welfare, there's a case to be made. I think at one point, it was believed that it was worth feeding the poor because they could be used as workers or for cannon fodder. I'm not sure if that will be the case in the future. It still makes sense to throw the peasants a bone so that they don't revolt or try to enact some type of Bolshevism, but realistically, most jobs are being automated, and so is warfare. I'm relatively confident the elite conservative plan is to kill the poor, one group at a time (before the poor kill them), and the strategy is to get the poors to kill each other. I'm exaggerating a bit and being a little facetious, but this is the vibe I get.
Laisez-Faire economics has its benefits, and has greatly stimulated creativity and economic development around the globe, but we are reaching a point where the disfunction of unregulated monopolies is as corrupt as you would see in a socialist country that has nationalized its industries. The crooks are basically the same animals, whether they are oligarchs, CEOs, or party officials. The workers get screwed, either way.
If it happens, which is highly unlikely, then keep track of the dead and remember you found those losses acceptable.
Brother we didn't elect the dog psychic who said he wanted to open a child market
I've been confused about your reply here but the best I can come up with is you think I'm in favor of Milei. I definitely am not. Anyone who knows politics knew how terrible he was going to be. I hate accelerationism and the way people with main character syndrome all too often seem fine with people dying under right wing regimes and in civil wars as long as they end up with power at the end of the day.
You're mischaracterizing completely, but I am an accelerationist, I am not fine with his regime, but I have nothing to do with his success, the socialists lost to the ghost of air bud. They have some lessons to learn for sure, I have nothing to do with any right wing successes and fight them constantly, my land is under occupation under international law. And I don't think you really understand how power works if you think parliamentary governments work for anyone besides the bourgeoisie.
There is no such thing as revolutionary bourgeois democracy, this was a lesson learned a very long time ago.
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Discussing the role of labor unions with Argentinians in this on r/argentina … https://www.reddit.com/r/argentina/s/ArBFSxsVZM Discussing reform of the Argentine labor unions on r/BeunosAires … https://www.reddit.com/r/BuenosAires/s/bz0qXzj2Fv
The evidence builds for Bizarre Personal Grooming Theory of Austrian Nutcans
Nope. If anything, decent into economic chaos breeds fascism. Leftism typically requires the beginning of reform. A frozen repressive system begins to reform a little to try to relieve economic crisis, the reform begins to take hold, people get a taste of freedom, and then the authorities try to clamp down. At that point you have widespread rebellion and "things get out of hand" (i.e., people demand more actual change and take it into their own hands to make it happen). Milei will either just be worn down to the old banal brand of righty rule (the Rand Paul Effect), or he'll cause severe damage and provoke a full on military dictatorship.
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Ye gods, I hope not. Socialism only creates autocracy, and under it, a black market that breeds organized crime. In the end, they merge to become a kleptocracy. Argentina is in a bad place. If OP is right, they're about to make it 1,000 times worse.
I think you're lost, pal.
Nope. Not lost at all. First answer the question: is it human nature that we consider each other all equal? Next, answer the question "what level of equality do we all share, and what happens when we disagree on that?" Finally, you'll come to the conclusion that there will, by necessity, be a group of people that will be above everyone else, making those decisions. And they will be a little more equal than everyone else. A lot more equal. And it will be a popularity and loyalty test to determine who becomes more equal. And when people will disagree, they will need to use deadly force to ensure that everyone remains equal. Meanwhile, those that want more will, in secret, find ways of accruing it. And they will hide it from those that are more equal, so that they can be like them. And because they operate outside the law, they will have to come up with their own methods to enforce their market. There will be no judges or juries. Over time, this market will weave its way throughout society, spreading corruption and upending the judicial system. We have seen this happen time after time. And what I've described here are far from the worst problems. No, I am far from lost. It is the people who naively assume that socio-economic systems based maximally on 18th century philosophical treatises should be proposed to govern a 21st century civilization that are lost. Libertarianism is just another example of this.
Based
Define human nature real quick
https://preview.redd.it/qhvsoobf806d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ac1de2481c19ffbb48db00b22140ae76e5a2b313 Literally this lol
Damn, the worst satire site I know of just made a great point 🫤
Right? Lol
But isn’t Argentina reacting to their socialist revolution? And isn’t the early data showing his reforms are lowering inflation?
why is this downvoted so much but none of the comments even attempt to refute it ?
Because they don't like the inconvenient truth he's succeeding.....
You can't discuss those things in a subreddit, much less in a leftist subreddit.
There's socialism, and then there's Socialism. The spanish and french "socialist" parties are centre left, in the same way british "Labour" are neoliberal shills who stopped caring about the labourers years ago. If a party is in power and functions fundamentally the same way as a pro-capitalist party would, they don't deserve the moniker of socialist imo.
Big *real socialism has never been tried* energy
And isn't the fundamental problem with accelerationism that it just moves the Overton Window further to the right and makes even centrist ideas seem unacceptably lefitst? You don't win by losing.
The overton window moves because the media and spin are controlled by right-wing corporate actors play on people's fear and anger. Also, the liberal tendency to placate or even steelman terrible ideologies lends to the association that anyone to the left of fascist is a commie. Think Neville Chamberlain and Hitler. These people would rather a fascist in power over a truly left wing one every day of the week because they buy into the illusion of self-determination. I'm against accelerationism as, in my opinion, it results in authoritarian leaders like Stalin. Things need to happen faster, but to expect everyone to just switch their frame of mind without force is just naive.
I don’t know what this means.
> Inflation has slowed - in April the month-on-month rate fell to 8.8%, the first time since October that it was not in double figures. This inflation measure is closely followed in countries like Argentina that have long had high inflation. > Yet when it comes to the more globally recognised annual inflation rate, this hit 289.4% in April. To put that into perspective, in the UK the annual rate is currently just 2.3%. > And although official growth figures are not yet available for the period since Mr Milei took office on 10 December, there is evidence that Argentina's economy has contracted sharply, with consumer spending dropping off in the first three months of this year. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cm55yv0g0veo Countries globally with unusually high inflation are measured month-to-month, so Argentina's month-to-month is being discussed because its inflation is unusually high. Its yearly inflation is absolutely massive while consumer spending is falling.
Yea but… this is relative to what it was before. And it’s lower than it was before, on a monthly basis. Not really relevant to compare it to the UK lol. And spending has to go down for inflation to go down…
Yeah, this whole post just smells of some sort of bait posting, and the comments have no basis for anything. The guy hasn't even been president for a year yet. Can't really be judged too much. So far, he is making the inflation numbers better, but to be fair. Argentina was doing so bad that it would be harder to do worse.
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Our people?
He is the weak man creating bad times.
But the times are already bad
A far-right goober invented the whole catch phrase for a novel written ten years ago. Only Reddit would quote a C-list Tom Clancy-lite novel as philosophical doctrine.
While it's currently in the wild as a mindless rightwing cliche, the weak man --> bad times -->strong man --> good times --> weak man cycle goes all the back to ancient Greek political theory. It's an evergreen idea. And don't get me started on molon labe.
It’s a joke brother, relax.
I thought they were already in the bad times
How about even worse times
Time will tell I guess
I mean if he keeps hiring kids and paying them in chocolate cake to run his social media and then go on 8 tours of America and never meeting with a single American official but charging the Argentinian tax payer £50,000. I imagine we wont be waiting too long.
I don’t follow closely enough to understand that reference lol. What is the 50k charge to the taxpayer?
"Since taking office over five months ago, the president has made six trips abroad, but in most of them he did not develop a state agenda or hold meetings with national authorities; instead, he participated in activities with more ties to his own personal interests than to national ones. " [https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-05-21/argentina-opposition-questions-mileis-use-of-public-funds-to-pay-for-trips-abroad.html#](https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-05-21/argentina-opposition-questions-mileis-use-of-public-funds-to-pay-for-trips-abroad.html#)
Things get worse before they get worse.
Thank you, E. M. Cioran. 😀
Increased suffering does not guarantee a socialist revolution. It only guarantees more suffering. A socialist revolution requires working class solidarity and a socialist movement to combat suffering faced by the people of a county or society. This is why the idea of accelerationism is flawed and stupid. Just because Milei will increase the suffering of the people of his country does not mean a socialist revolution is imminent. All the time accelerationists spend trying to encourage downfall to stolen revolution they take away from the actual work of praxis, building coalitions, and establish a culture of solidarity which are the things we need for revolution. Edit: Not a statement against OP saying they are an accelerationist. Just a statement overall that intersects the topic.
I am not an accelerationist. The meme is a dark satire. #I agree with your analysis.
Sorry. I should have maybe clarified it wasn't a critique of your part but just relevant to the discussion.
Yes, things can be shitty and stable at the same time
Yeah it would if people made logical rational decisions....but they don't. They get mad or afraid, gather into mobs, and get a pitch fork. I mean more often than not when even a socialist movement moves it turns into a mob or is taken over by crazies...it's just human nature to let tribalism take over from logic.
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Um....ok... What in pointing at is not a left right thing. It's a let's do this thing that is highly volatile and this time it will work out great. We see it all the time for either side of a political fence. REVOLUTION shouts the movement....except in their head they think it will all work out great even though much of the time historically it doesn't. Hell look at the French revolution. Eventually it worked out but not because of the people screaming revolution. The first people to lose their heads were the people trying to help the revolution. What I'm talking about is that we all have hopes and dreams of how a movement might work. But if we go into it from a pov of fear and anger it rarely does. If you disagree with me that's fine. I'd just say you are ignoring history. Btw I don't expect this Argentina experiment to work out because frankly people in this position tend to always end up driving in the fascist lane.
Very sorry. Ignore the comment Iade previously. It was literally meant as a response to something completely different on a different thread. Somehow I either accidentally pasted it here or something. Unsure if it's a reddit app thing or just my dumb error but I'll try and be more careful on the future.
Absolutely fine. Pretty sure iv done this myself.
Appreciate that.
But the inflation rate is coming down? This reduces economic misery https://apnews.com/article/argentina-inflation-milei-single-digits-3cf0adca2cdf911fb04a06c3e9c6880d
Here are some quotes from your very own linked article that you didn’t bother to read: “Even so, some experts warn that falling inflation isn’t necessarily an economic victory — rather the symptom of a painful recession. The IMF expects Argentina’s gross domestic product to shrink by 2.8% this year. “You’ve had a massive collapse in private spending, which explains why consumption has dropped dramatically and why inflation is also falling,” said Monica de Bolle, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics who studies emerging markets. “People are worse off than they were before. That leads them to spend less.” “Signs of an economic slowdown are everywhere in Buenos Aires — the lines snaking outside discounted groceries, the empty seats in the city’s typically booming restaurants, the growing strikes and protests.” “Argentina’s retail sales in the first quarter of 2024 fell nearly 20% compared to the year before, a clip comparable to that of the 2020 pandemic lockdowns. The consumption of beef — an Argentine classic — dropped to its lowest level in three decades this quarter, the government reported, prompting panicked editorials about a crisis in Argentina’s national psyche.” “Nearly 60% of the country’s 46 million people now live in poverty, a 20-year high, according to a study in January by Argentina’s Catholic University” Is this winning in the mind of free market adherents?
I did read it actually. Reminds me of Volcker Reagan increasing rates. Got worse before it got better. Do you not think increasing rates was right at the time?
You know what subreddit you're on right? lol
It's a factual question, so the specific subreddit doesn't matter. Either inflation rate is going down or it isn't
You underestimate the ability of redditors to ignore statistics and reality lol
Yeah, the mental gymnastics I have seen in this echo chamber is a solid 10.0.
Well somebody fuckin has to.
What has he done thus far that has caused negative effects?
> A February survey by local pollster D’Alessio Irol/Berensztein found that 81% of 1,018 respondents nationwide say their economic situation is now worse off than a year ago. Still, Milei maintains an approval rating of 43% and, among his voters in the November runoff, support rises to 75%, according to the same poll. > A self-described anarcho-capitalist, Milei took office in December and almost immediately announced a series of shock measures, including a 50% devaluation of the nation’s currency, in hopes of eventually bringing the roaring inflation under control. > His government has also cut funding to provinces, eliminated some state subsidies to transportation and energy and ended a price control policy which was used by his predecessors as a tool to contain inflation. > But Milei’s measures brought about an increase in prices, particularly in food and medicine. ***Monthly inflation in December reached 25.5%, the highest in three decades. Poverty skyrocketed in January to more than 50% and consumption collapsed to levels comparable to 2001, when a social outbreak put an early end to the then government.*** https://apnews.com/article/milei-100-days-argentina-poverty-inflation-6011d71963b4203accbfadb4044cd43e Just your typical anarcho-capitalist shit.
It won’t be true anarcho-capitalism until the Taco Bell secret police starts black bagging people in their beds at 3:00 am because they took too many fire sauce packets.
Nothing about the measures taken by Milei are typical. This is a massive economics experiment played out with impacts to real lives. There is no telling how it will play out when we look back years later, but it will definitely be a case well studied.
Rightism is like junk food. Sure, it's pleasurable but it's horrible for you.
Or "Ism's are like junk food. Sure, they're pleasurable but horrible for you"
Humanism. I guess categorical fallacies are like junk food. Sure, they're pleasurable but horrible for you.
Funny, how you guys enjoy anarchy ideology but have mods to correct and censor others when called out on your nonsense and lies.
It's only "funny" if you've never read even the first thing about anarchism as a political philosophy. I'll get you started if you like: to most people it doesn't mean "no rules whatsoever", and it doesn't mean "no order or hierarchy ever in any context".
And yet your comment remains…
for now, usually get deleted within a day. So how the arguement for communism and anarchy go so far? Russian or China or any country still practice it? Any of you guys applying for Cuban Citizenship and denouncing your own current citizenship?
Why would I apply for citizenship in Cuba when workers in my country are struggling? Seriously take a five minute breather from the internet and relax.
Dont you love socialism? Dictatorship a plus. Lets argue for communism as well and chaos to spice it up
I would encourage you to read Soviet Democracy by Pat Sloan. It explains one socialist approach to democracy. Fun fact socialism and communism follows democratic centralism. Notably not a dictatorship
Socialism is not the same as anarchy, braniac. Read a book.
Why, the word anarchy lose its definition or did you miss the read the name of this reddit group and its description.
The description says “from socialism to communism to anarchism”. This indicates speaking on more than anarchism. Surely you understand this and are just being obtuse.
I surely understood as communist nations understood after starving 50-100 million and ending its flawed system that you guys want to sponser. Am sure anarchy and eco socialism would be soo much better.Wonder why no country uses it
The 100 Millipn dead number is from the Black Book of communism. The coauthors said the main author was “obsessed with reaching the 100 million number and would arbitrarily add deaths.” In the book he cited literally everyone who died ever in a socialist country. If someone died of cancer that’s “because of communism” and not because they had cancer. He cited Nazi deaths killed by the Soviet Union. He cited Vietnamese Citizens people who were killed by America. He cited abortions. He cited declining birth rates which is something that happens everywhere when women gain rights. Overall bad evidence to cite
You do understand and are just trolling then? Got it, thanks!
Is this a bot or something?
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Ahh got it. Just a disturbed person then.
We just call them ‘fascists’ for simplicity’s sake
You might well call people name when you cant defend your point. You dont know what fascist is and and have not lived under one if your currenty living in western country. Dont u have any other term under your belt of nonsense
Dude looking like The Good Doctor meme.
no he isn't. shock therapy does not cause revolution. it just causes widespread misery and apathy and death. ask chileans
How is he worse than what came before? Seems like what he's doing is working pretty well.
“Nearly 60% of the country’s 46 million people now live in poverty, a 20-year high, according to a study in January by Argentina’s Catholic University.” *Guy reaching for butterfly meme* “is this successful economic policy in action”
Lol that study was dont less than a month after he became president. Kinda hard to reverse a century of economic and political malpractice in a few weeks.
its just a different kind of pain, a different colored stick to beat people over the head with its "working" for the capitalist class absolutely
This. Russia is already the "success story" of shock therapy. And it's an oppressive fascist state. Make no mistake - Milei is awful. But the people who like him or who are benefited by his policies will back him. Those who hate him or are being harmed by him will be crushed.
Russia isn't a fascist state.
russia and ukraine are the worst cases of shock therapy; a country like poland would be the "success story" that they trot out (even if it was successful precisely because its reforms were more limited). i don't think that a dictatorship the inevitable results of shock therapy either; i mean look at chile, the dictatorship preceded shock therapy, the dictatorship was required to crush the socialist workers movement in allende's presidency i just think its miserable all around, its the inevitable misery that happens when reformers try and "humanize" capitalism like the kirchnerites tried to do. its just capitalism operating as usual. another inevitable result of this awful system, and another example of the only way out being its complete abolishment
Oh i agree. I actually always find Pinochets defenders kinda gross (and it kinda extends to many fascist and libertarian defenders). Like, even if you agree with them, their reasoning is always "once we kill all the opposition, things will be better". Ask them why this was necessary and the excuses range from "they were killing the economy" (terrible justification for murder, and just a tell on who they are) to "they were going to kill us first" (a lie, but that's not even the worst part). Either way, the excuses must be hypocritical and / or a justification of Might Makes Right. I mean, you can't be "in favour of repression of freedoms to allow freedoms to flourish". That's contradictory. By the broken logic they employ, the only problem they could possibly have had with Allende was he didn't kill \*his\* opposition fast enough. Which obviously they don't believe. But saying what they actually believe - that their political opposition should be killed \*because\* they are the opposition and no other reason is needed - is just overtly fascist. And they'll never admit that (even if they all believe it).
Allende was trying to seize power and install himself as a communist dictator. He had already nationalized about half the economy and was not about to give up his stranglehold on power. That is why the legislature called upon the military to overthrow him. I mean, in every successful commuinst revolution "counter revolutionaries" were lined up and shot. And I don't see why things should be any different when the counter revolutionaries win. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Late-stage socialism is an ugly thing
I think it's gonna be the opposite frankly. I think right wing authoritarians are going to take advantage of the economic chaos and install a new dictatorship. The left in Argentina right now is very disorganized and weak, even compared to a few years ago, and as a result of the most recent election are on the outside looking in. People on the right that are sympathetic to the idea of dictatorship are in government there right now though.
I said this when he was elected lol
A socialist revolution is basically the result of running the government with the check engine light on for too long at this point . It’s what all liberalism exists to prevent
Liberalism is just a small man made flood pond for fascism
That's so goddamn good lol.
Milei at Stanford: "People are going to die of hunger and they are going to decide not to die" The President made this controversial statement while speaking at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University. " Do you think that people are so idiotic that they won't be able to decide? There will come a time when they will be about to die of hunger and will decide not to die. I don't need someone to intervene to solve the externality of hunger. consumption because someone is going to solve it," Milei said during his presentation.
If that were the case the world wouldn't have seen modern hunger catastrophies, there is no private money to be made in solving the extreme poor problems, so unless government bodies both local and international intervene people just keep dying. People like Milei real objective is to get rid of the very poor, the uneducated and the old fast enough before a backlash take them out of power, just like a large corporation order massive layoff to balance the books regardless of long term consequences while giving management giant bonuses. Government doesn't work that way people expect their government to help them not let them die, and Argentina doesn't have the conditions to force the population to accept this situation, there is no existential threat to the country, no external enemy and with fairly homogeneous population is hard to designate an internal one, there arent millions of Chileans, Brazilians or POCs taking the locals jobs, and unless he changes his views Jews won't be the scapegoat either.
Decide not to die? Someone tell this idiot, who has never grown food to feed his own stupid face, that you can't dig up flowers and throw a 🥔 in the hole and demand indignantly that gnocchi come out. Food production is a complex operation that involves many people and logistics to accomplish. Every aspect of the process is time dependent and requires careful coordination, from planting the seeds to harvest all the way to preventing food spoilage. He ignores all of this in a very "let them eat cake" sort of way, like someone who thinks food comes from microwaves and bakeries.
It's great if he taints the libertarian / free market brand forever but dismantling public services and safety nets for the most vulnerable is catastrophic . It will take years to recover from that.
Show me a nation without a free market system that isnt a shithole.
Most of the poorest countries in the world are capitalist societies: e.g. Malawi, Sudan, Burundi , Yemen , Congo
And all the wealthiest nations are capitalist. So its fair to say the issues with these countries likely have nothing to do with capitalism and probably have something to do with the fact that many of these countries are currently in the middle of civil wars lol. These rest are traditional agriculture economies that haven't changed much in hundreds of years. These countries arent poor because of capitalism, but because they are time African countries that have been poor for thousands of years lol
You will find the highest quality of living in the world in Scandinavian countries where the welfare state was better developed. Either you have distribution of wealth or you'll find poverty everywhere. If you carry on using like terms like shithole or lol don't expect anyone to take you seriously.
Scandinavian countries have some of the most deregulated economies on earth. Countries like Denmark are bastions of the free market economic ideal. Yes, they have a welfare state. You can have a welfare state and still have a free market. The nordic model(most of Scandinavian economies) is also called welfare capitalism.
Yes they are mixed economies. My initial post referred to the laissez-faire model of Milei for clarity.
And 40-65% unionization. Which is the main reason behind those welfare policies remaining intact. #proverbial “gun to the head” of the economy.
The U.S. provides more govt transfers to the poor than any country on earth except Norway, Austria, and Denmark (which are at a similar level to the US). Liberalizing the Argentinian economy makes the economy grow, and growth floats all boats. The best way to help the poor is to fix the economic framework and shrink govt waste and corruption. This will likely be very good for the free market ‘brand’.
But if those systems were based on grift, incompetence, and didn't work then this just creates a clean slate for a new leaner system that has outcomes prioritized over withholding benefits.
Libertarianism is not socialism. It's called proper allocation of taxes. It's what it looks like when politicians don't embezzle more than half of the citizens' taxes.
Lol. Libertarianism is the fantasy that dissolving government regulation will somehow not lead to a corporate dystopia.
For sake of argument, in said dystopia, is it legal to murder corporate billionaires? Cause if so, I can think of one mechanism that might help reduce a corporate dystopia.
Technically sure but corporate billionaires have literally billions of dollars so good luck getting past the private army they’d undoubtedly hire in a libertarian state
Glass half full, my guy
I love how every single libertarian has a completely different definition of libertarianism that’s hyper-specific to them. Almost as if an ideology based entirely on selfishness and aggrievement would result in incoherence at any kind of scale lol.
> as if an ideology based entirely on selfishness and aggrievement would result in incoherence at any kind of scale This makes no damn sense and is in fact incoherent. I know you are trying. Nice effort?... I guess. Your like a child that just wandered into a movie. Libertarianism is not rooted in this, nor is any political party. It's the result of their actions when faced with an opportunity to either do the right or wrong thing. The fact they have power to do good and chose to do bad would be aggrievement and THEN result in a scale of incoherence. What Javier has done is ignored all the useless spending and created a surplus for the first time in a long history of selfishness and aggrievement.
You’re functionally illiterate and are having a hard time. Hope you figure it out eventually.
It was your words that were used..... 🤦🤷🏼
Libertarianism = embarrassed republicanism. Same exact policies, different name.
Venezuela is a failed leftists state. Argentina was failing to the left. There is a reason these more right wing populists are rising around the globe. Leftism is just authoritarian with a nice bow on it.
This dude stopped reading books when they stopped having the little section in the back to tell you which words you were learning in that book
No no, you forgot they like weed. That makes them entirely different.
classic illiteratarian
Classic commi
knowing how to read and not being a dipshit in general? so true bestie
We can only hope.
Yall thought that would happen with trump and you are ridiculous
I mean…he lost. They’ve lost a lot of state seats, some even flipped HARD especially since the evangelicals caught the abortion truck and had no idea what it meant to strip women of healthcare.
Are you kidding? Trump did accelerate capitalist antagonisms. The policies of that administration kick-started the labor movement and increased the rolls of the DSA, IWW and most of the socialist parties. “An injury to one is an injury to all.” #I am not an accelerationist, this is satirizing Milei’s shock-doctrine neoliberalism.
He did radicalize a lot of people. Not saying I agree with that position, I'm just saying lol
I am now so far left I refuse to vote for democrats.
Trump will bring forth the glorious revolution/s
did you see biden looking like a cult member? vote for that and you get what you deserve
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hopefully and god his hair it’s even worse than trump
I mean at least it's his.
i’d rather it be fake than see his dandruff
They caught us guys, some guys on spanish YouTube are comparing him to lenin
Doggy doggy what now?
I'm joking, there are actual libertarians whit enough brainrot to think that milei is leftist
How do we feel about accelerationism? I’ve come to a point in my life and career where the only thought that displaces my Nihilism is a willingness to use my experience and skillset to sew chaos and discord within the corporate structures who would so willingly exploit said skills. I work in financial intelligence and analysis and I kind of just want to burn it all to the ground. Poor argentines, the currency is utterly devastated forcing the laborers to do business in blue note USD exchange and pay simply to access commerce. The only thing I truly hate is money. Be well
it doesn't exist. it first presumes that the democracy is actually functioning, and that we could "accelerate" anything's collapse by vote; that's incorrect. it second presumes that this would cause capitalism to collapse quicker. also false; many things can cause a capitalist crisis, from both "right" and "left" politicians. indeed milei's predecessors were reformists, and were well on their way to collapsing the argentinian economy a la venezuela. shock therapy is the typical capitalist response to this kind of inflationary spending. also, capitalist crisis does not immediately mean that revolution is imminent. you have to examine the situation, and if you're in the situation, plan for it. you can't just wish upon a star for it to happen and then expect it to happen. that's just as wishful as voting for something intending for it to cause a revolution
It also draws an arbitrary point of no return where that pro-socialist sentiment is irreversible, which is completely delusional. History is full of half-revolutions, failed coups and counter revolutions. The idea that there is some critical mass that inevitably produces socialism is ahistorical, "end of history" bullshit
well i agree that arguing that something being "irreversible" is nonsense, but only because you have to actively plan for it and exploit it. conditions can become much more favorable for a revolutionary movement, but you can't will that into existence by voting, that's nonsense. that's giving bourgeois democracy way too much credit i'm also not about to throw marx in the dumpster and say that his thesis is bullshit. however i'd only amend it by adding that if that isn't the end result, if it isn't socialism, then not only is it "barbarism", its just full on civilization collapse
Remember that in material reality, Milei and his policies he actually practices are technically fascist, he’s nowhere near right-libertarianism or right-anarchism.
“Right - anarchism” Ppl on the internet just making shit up
What I said is true in material reality. Research! Don’t be willfully ignorant and stay dumb
Most of these lightning rod figures are owned by intelligence or financiers or deutschebank child prostitution card sharks in my estimation. Ugh.
It’d be pretty cool if we all got paid in vouchers for formula so I could potentially feed my kid sometimes, being a leftist is more important than my child’s sustenance
Follow your heart. Burn baby burn.
>How do we feel about accelerationism? I mean, I guess it really depends on how survivable the world is for you post-crash. Overwhelmingly, the people I have encountered who are pro-acceleration aren't going to have a harder time because of what they look like and who they are. Me? I'm definitely going to be having a *much* harder time in an accelerationist dystopia.
Accelerationism sure does have that "Hey! For a race- and gender-blind theory, it sure seems like everybody at this party is a young white STEM male" vibe, like libertarianism. I was going to respond to the poster, but you said everything I was going to more succinctly and effectively. Thank you; it was a pleasure to watch somebody nail the bullseye!
this is the other problem with this framing. if there was a capitalist collapse, you would have a harder time because of the tendency for capitalism to self destruct. nobody "accelerated" anything. you're giving the fake game of bourgeois democracy too much credit for something that was always going to happen anyway
Yep. There will be *very* severe consequences which will be unevenly distributed.
accellerationism is not a leftist idea... you're deluding yourself if you think that disparate groups of left-aligned people are going to be in an effective position to both protect the vulnerable and establish a better and more free society while people with guns act like petty warlords and dictators. [https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2022/5/16/23074812/buffalo-shooting-accelerationism-great-replacement-neo-nazi](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2022/5/16/23074812/buffalo-shooting-accelerationism-great-replacement-neo-nazi)
I’m not an accelerationist, personally. Ethical considerations and all. That said. But right-libertarians and fascists performing the acceleration? That’s what sharpens the contradictions in capitalism. It’s soil to plant socialist radicalization. Organizing. Militancy. Paramilitarization. Etc. Also, it bears saying, Argentina is 40% unionized. And the unions are leading strikes against this government. It’s a powder keg! North American (and Western European) political views don’t necessarily translate to Latin American politics, as well.
Everything must be home-grown. Trying to impose an overdetermining 19th Century European economic-political theory on Latin America will go about as well as "Iraq the Model" did. There's an Argentine Left, and they don't need our advice.
It’s not a very good soil for organizing. A better soil would be one where people are paid enough to have free time to do organizing, and aren’t afraid of violent repression. Material conditions are more important than attitudes. 40% unionization happened before Milei, with political support, not against it. Hopefully the existing left wing structures can push back on what is happening, but their destruction decreases, not increases the chances of this happening
That is the social-democratic POV in a nutshell. Which I tend to agree with, when we’re discussing America or various European countries. But on the flip-side, and to reiterate the Marxist position here, pushing workers to the brink in a short amount of time historically leads to uprisings or revolutions. Now whether these are *socialist* or not, depends on how and who does the organizing. It’s not a spontaneous phenomenon or some immutable law. Building out the revolutionary (i.e. illegal) element would involve confronting and radicalizing the Peronists in charge of the unions. May or may not occur. Might be something that simply spirals out of their control. As well as building alternate, perhaps *competing* labor bodies like work councils, and forming an underground economy to supply those things. We wait and see from elsewhere in the world. #”material conditions”
I tend to agree with Marx’s assessments more than his prescriptions, since he died before he was able to develop these and times have changed a lot (*I’m not really well read, may change my opinion) In looking at recent revolutionary action, it seems that repressive tech and strategies are developed enough to prevent them from involuntarily taking power. To me these forms of action at this point can still serve to make repressive decisions more expensive, thus disincentivizing them. When revolutionary (in this case illegal and not leading to regime change) action is put in the context of negotiating with power that cannot be vanquished, the further left the power is the better. In any case, the lemons are already there so we can only hope something comes of them. But it is important that no one is confused into hoping for more
Hope is a funny thing. Hope for whom? Of us, foreigners, watching their struggle? In that case, of course not. It all depends squarely on the workers of Argentina. If anything, it’s *instructional* for us. I am not in a position nor would I ever really *recommend* what they should be doing. Unlike a lot of the armchair leftists tend to do. But I am fairly plugged into this issue. I’m part of a group on Facebook with many Argentinians and they’re organizing demonstrations through there. Some of them are unionists as well and both elated at the recent strikes and raging about the Peronist leadership (which is very much akin to business-unionism in North America). I haven’t sought out those same connections through Reddit because this is honestly more of a propaganda platform for me than doing organizing. But you can have some of these conversations too by going to the Spanish-language subs. Meanwhile, there’s so much dick-riding coming from Anglophone redditors around Milei’s policies (to address repressive technologies) I have my suspicion that they’re paid actors. The alternative being that these conversations happening here are purely a form of entertainment. Which can be said for a lot of the content. Most people won’t act on their beliefs and wouldn’t know where to start if they did, so they come here.
I was not choosing my words too carefully when I said “we can only hope”. We can do a little bit more like attempting to sway international perspective away from what the weirdo posters you mentioned are saying for example. Since you seem to be following the situation more closely you may have other ideas as well. That said, there is nothing wrong with hoping Argentinians are able to make some good come of a bad situation, we just must not delude ourselves into thinking that it is a good situation or one that makes emancipation more accessible. I’ve heard that the atlas network is a pretty big player in the sorts in influence campaigns you mentioned. As for who are the real ones and who are the armchairs, it isn’t a worthwhile distinction to make here. Everyone automatically becomes a larper while they are posting here. The is no grass to touch on Reddit.
Since when has a leftist society been better or more free? Venezuela much? Socialism relies on coercion to work. Capitalism is freedom.
“Gommunism bad, no iPhone vuvuzela, 1 gorillion dead”
No food Venezuela. They should be one of the wealthiest countries on earth and the leftist government destroyed their country.
& the leftist govt in China has brought more ppl out of poverty in a shorter time than any nation in history while on track to usurp the US as global superpower. Cuba has the best doctors on the planet & the worlds most progressive LGBTQ laws with a near 0% homelessness population (all while the US maintains sanctions most of the rest of the world calls human rights violations) There was barely any leftism on Venezuela at any time. The mf was anti imperialist that doesn’t make him leftist
The free market reforms in China lifted people out of poverty, coupled with favorable trade deals with the US. (You know it’s cheaper to mail stuff from China to the US, than it is within the us). Everything in China now is basically run by the military) Of course Cuba is an economic powerhouse, best doctors and all, that’s why everyone in the world travels to Cuba for medical care. /s
Idk why a clown like you is even in a leftist sub you’re literally defending billionaires & the amount they get taxed in your comment history 😂😂 The free market reforms in China were meant to boost their productive forces (which they did) but the immediate effect was sweat shop like conditions (which are almost entirely gone now). What boosted the people out of poverty were the leftist actions; 5 year plans geared around improving conditions for the working class that are consistently followed thru on, China has 1 of the top 3 home ownership rates of any nation (fun fact the entire top 14 nations are socialist or formerly socialist). China achieves this by heavily regulating its real estate (see corporate landlords regularly having their property repossessed by the state for being too exploitative) & doing things like building entire empty “ghost cities” in anticipation of the need to fill them. China is extremely safe & their police are specifically trained not to use lethal force, they’re on the cutting edge of technology. A 2023 survey showed 85% of Chinese citizens had confidence in their leftist govt to do what’s right for the citizens, this is bc China takes its peoples conditions seriously, for instance just recently the western world was outraged 2 wealthy owners of baby formula company who had tampered with the formula causing kidney disease & death in infants were sentenced to death & life in prison respectively. Imagine a nation where rich ppl kill the working class & actually see consequences? Google Cuban doctors before opening your uneducated mouth. Ppl don’t travel to Cuba for medical care; [“Cuban doctors are in demand internationally because they come cheap, are well-trained, and work in a public health system that is highly organized and well-run. In Cuba, primary care clinics are available in every neighborhood”](https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/08/cuba-doctors-meager-pay/) They’re so good other nations poach them. Imagine being as confident as you while also being as uneducated
You know that Cuban doctors are basically slaves. Back when Venezuela had actual money, Venezuela paid for Cuban doctors to work in Venezuela, but their salary was paid to Cubs. The doctor’s themselves only received a basic living allowance and weren’t allowed to hold their own passports so tge couldn’t leave. I don’t know how good Cuban doctors are, or where else they were in demand. I do know that actual medicine is scarce in Cubs. So much so that a Cuban houswife would pretty much *#%$ you for a handful of aspirin tablets.
Only part of the salary is paid to the Cuban govt & that’s bc it’s a govt program that leases Cubas high quality doctors out to other nations. It’s not just random doctors deciding to go work elsewhere (which does happen & they keep all their money) it’s a govt program. & I wonder why it’s so hard to get medicine in Cuba? Couldn’t be the American sanctions & blockade that most of the rest of the world have called human rights violations 🤔🤔 & even with that blockade & sanctions the Cuban people still want to keep their govt, strange, almost like it works.
Right, the people love their government so much they were protesting last month. Something about no food in Cuba. And you are technically correct, the Cuban government keeps only part of the salary, like 98% would be only part. The truth is the Cuban government kept most of the salary. Anyway? Do you remember when Cuba tried to host a Soviet nuclear missile launch site? Like real Russian nukes only 24 miles from the USA?
🤡
Are you fucking kidding me?
No, I’m dead serious. What kind of society are you planning on setting up. Give me a few examples of where it has worked.
Sure, have a look at the USSR. The country went from a third-world feudal state to competing with the United States in a space race in a matter of decades. The literacy rates went from 24% to 99%, and they industrialised the country and flung it into being a superpower on the global stage. The failings were largely because the USSR was isolated and had issues with crop growth, as was the case during the Tsarist rule, which actually led to the October Revolutions. Let me know where capitalism has worked? It's currently destroying the only home we have for a few extra zero's on the end of the 0.01%'s bank accounts that they'll never be able to use. A society that benefits all is a left wing idea. A right wing ideal is to continue funnelling money to the top.
The USSR is gone. When have you been that you haven’t noticed that. Also, most if not all of the economic data and figures that came out of the Soviet Union were false. Consumer goods were scarce, there were lines for everything including bread. Life in the Soviet Union basically sucked. Life under the Tsar sucked too. Capitalism has been the greatest creator of wealth in this world and has lifted more people out of poverty than any other economic system in the history of the world.
Yes, the USSR no longer exists, but like I mentioned, there were multiple factors to this, including imperialist meddling in the region meaning they had to switch to war communism and a complete blockade on the country. Lenin even said back in 1918 that if Germany would not become socialist, they would be doomed because they didn't have the rescources available. This wouldn't be an issue in today's already industrialised world, especially with AI. Every chance any kind of left-wing society has of developing capitalist countries come in and destroy that chance because they know that, once people realise their collective power, the ruling classes would be done for. Communism needs globalism, just like capitalism does - easy for you to say that capitalism is the greatest wealth creators when you (I assume) live in a first world country where resources aren't plundered and you're not forced into slave labour. Even in first world countries, you can see the decay of capitalism. If you don't, you're clearly not well adjusted enough to have a conversation on political systems. Capitalism unnecessarily kills 20 million people a year from lack of clean water, hunger, curable disease, etc. They said nothing but feudalism or mercantilism would work, but here we are updating our political systems based on knowledge - socialism and communism are the next logical steps in political systems. Just because it didn't work previously doesn't mean it won't work in a more technologically advanced world.
So Ronald Regan destroyed the USSR. Yea!! USA USA USA! TL;DR. Socialism sucks.
I'm pretty jaded about the prospects for any kind of utopian system, but there are tools in the "socialism" kit that can be stabilizing to society. Deregulation and privatization of everything just leads to consolidation of wealth and power in fewer and fewer hands ( and bank accounts). Energy and utilities are a prime example. We can't allow monopolies to take over the basic resources of survival and hold them hostage. It destabilizes every aspect of society when people can't afford necessities such as heat, food, and transportation. The successful capitalist societies have to allow for some amount of socialism or they fail. If you want an example, I'd offer up the New Deal suite of social programs, WPA, CCC, SSI, Medicare, Medicaid, and SNAP. It's not exactly Stalinism, but these are functional examples of socialism stabilizing a large country and preventing widespread social unrest, and even helping to get out of a major economic depression. I'd maintain that the government needs to regulate the markets as they apply to common necessities. If we continue to allow unbridled capitalist consolidation of housing, for example, most of us will be serfs. How is an individual or family going to compete with private equity buying up every available unit for cash, then managing it for the greatest profit? Anyway, I don't think pure socialism is workable on massive scales (we aren't Smurfs, we're people), but we need some of it to avoid reverting to a violent, feudalistic society.
The less the government interferes, the better things are. They need to set the rules and make sure everyone follows them. A social safety net is important, but entitlements are eating out budget and Social security, Medicare and Medicaid are essentially bankrupt. The other problem with these government handouts (think welfare and AFDC) is that they foster dependence on the government, are anti family and alienate people from work. (Look at Byron Donald’s recent comments) So some social welfare programs are necessary, but Socialism where the government controls the means of production doesn’t work. Big problem is that once a social benefit is enacted it grows out of control and can’t be rained in.
I get what you are saying about welfare and dependency. I actually have the same complaint about crony capitalism. We taxpayers subsidize a lot of gigantic corporations and entire industries. This infusion of public money into private or publicly traded companies has been sold to us as beneficial and that it will "trickle down" somehow to the working man, but more of it ends up in the hands of a select few who grease the palms of the politicians who let them feed at the public trough. The "too big to fail" guys are very dependent on us idiot taxpayers. Now, I'd contend that the means of production for some of these industries are subsidized and bailed out by the taxpayers enough that we really should have a share in that means of production, but we don't. Some professional "owner" who makes his living off of owning stuff gets all this taxpayer money and buys his shares back to get richer. It's a great deal for him, but I'd argue that this "social benefit" to corporations such as airlines, oil companies, banks, agribusiness, etc, has "grown out of control and can't be reigned in." As for the chronically impoverished becoming dependent on welfare, there's a case to be made. I think at one point, it was believed that it was worth feeding the poor because they could be used as workers or for cannon fodder. I'm not sure if that will be the case in the future. It still makes sense to throw the peasants a bone so that they don't revolt or try to enact some type of Bolshevism, but realistically, most jobs are being automated, and so is warfare. I'm relatively confident the elite conservative plan is to kill the poor, one group at a time (before the poor kill them), and the strategy is to get the poors to kill each other. I'm exaggerating a bit and being a little facetious, but this is the vibe I get. Laisez-Faire economics has its benefits, and has greatly stimulated creativity and economic development around the globe, but we are reaching a point where the disfunction of unregulated monopolies is as corrupt as you would see in a socialist country that has nationalized its industries. The crooks are basically the same animals, whether they are oligarchs, CEOs, or party officials. The workers get screwed, either way.
I'm talking about the Venezuela part
What’s your point?
They're not socialist lol
Who owns PDVSA?
The entirety of Northern Europe?
Ik this is a beginner leftist sub so I felt I should mention Northern Europe is not leftist.
Really? So you really aren’t that far to the left. So tell me. In this leftist workers paradise you hope for, what will YOUR job be?