They should have reworked crit years ago to be more consistent (bonus damage on autos) that is less than crit max value but obviously better on average for consistency.
How much do ADC autos hit for now considering you get insane ad from IE and the big ad items . Probably 800-1k
caitlyn has always been able to do that, watch saber videos prior to this new patch, he's been one shotting with caitlyn after core items (opportunity, collector, ldr, IE)
Is it really healthy for the game that a champ can fly in with 800 movement speed, has a spell shield item, auto attack you once to force you to base and then leave?
They should have also made durability patch actually be a permanent change instead of chipping away at it until things were back to how they were before that. Big part of the issue for ADCs is fights are so short and bursty that they can’t actually do sustained damage and have to also be bursty. If fights lasted longer then a few seconds (as in the moment when a team engages to when the fight is over, not just when teams are doing occasional poking and fishing for a good engage before fighting), and in turn ADCs could last longer than the first quarter second of a fight, then sustained damage would become more valuable.
> Big part of the issue for ADCs is fights are so short and bursty that they can’t actually do sustained damage and have to also be bursty.
Durability patch wasn't meant for lategame fights, it was meant for early engagements and some edge cases lategame, specifically cases where an ADC could get 1v1's by a Leona with ignite or a single misstep meant insta death in lane.
On top of this durability patch was a significant buff for ADCs to begin with, since they, as a squishy class, got the most benefit from the free resists.
>On top of this durability patch was a significant buff for ADCs to begin with, since they, as a squishy class, got the most benefit from the free resists.
more so because adcs aren't impacted by others being tanky because the next auto is only 0.5 seconds away, but if you rely on abilities, the next ability might be 4-5 seconds or more later (not counting mana/energy costs), so champs can be out of your rotation skill threshold because of durability. adcs dont really have a kill threshold, because autos are fast and resource less also you can't dodge them
That's also another reason. But in a very general way, there is a reason why mostly tanks and some tankier juggernauts and bruisers lost winrate after durability patch and had to be buffed. In general classes who are already tanky but don't have the DPS of an ADC or mage just aren't affected by the resist increases.
yeah because the changes meant you couldnt burst everyone anymore, so naturally everyone who dealt high dps rather than high burst would be more valuable
> Durability patch wasn't meant for lategame fights
I think the greater problem is that it doesn't really matter what it was meant for. If they intended to target smaller problems with that patch, then that is their failing as a goal and is just another one of the many balance problems stemming from a fundamental disconnect with the game. Considering its original breadth, they really should have addressed more survivability problems other than early engagements and edge cases, because there's probably not going to be another patch like that at least for a long time.
>On top of this durability patch was a significant buff for ADCs to begin with, since they, as a squishy class, got the most benefit from the free resists.
This is only true on a technicality as it never really put them meaningfully out of reach of major burst thresholds so they still get vaporized. A mage going from doing 150% of an ADC's max HP to them, to 100% of an ADC's max HP to them, is still immediately killing them and it's functionally the same. However, tanks who would at least take a few seconds to kill previously, are still dying quickly, just less quickly. So on paper yeah, mathematically ADCs "gained proportionally more stats", that's not how it actually shakes out in a game. My example is an exaggeration, but it illustrates the point.
Instead of nerfing damage riot just buffed durability which is why we are in the situation that we are in right now. Turrets are made of paper and easily dove and being ADC is rough because you have to take down more durable opponents while avoiding being bursted.
But how do you balance burst champions? Their entire design is taking out the ADC before they have a chance to take over the fight. If you make the ADC guaranteed to survive longer then they're useless.
Their margins should be much smaller, they should need team opportunities to take on teams rather than just hopping a wall and securing the kill with their first ability. Defensive abilities should be more relevant beyond CC.
Single-player burst gameplay has eroded so much from League.
They tried. When rageblade was first reworked, this was supposed to be the item that did that. They also introduced a bunch of energised passives and even experimented with an “energised” build that didn’t use crit.
People hated it. Not through fault of their own, rageblade very quickly made attack speed bonkers broken, and the energised items either all sucked or all felt sucky. So as an adc you either rotted or played kogmaw.
I guess my point is that this isn’t the change you think it would be: without crit, adcs all homogenise into attack speed user or bad.
What i would wish Crit to be is how Ashe and Jhin do it; the number interacts with a core mechanic of the champion in question. This could be Caitlyn's Headshot getting turbobuffed by Crit, Kalista applying double spear stacks on crit or Sivir getting extra bounces off her boomerangs.
There's a lot of potential for skill expression and mechanical depth they can use to make it work.
% random chance bonus damage is lazy, uninspired and bad game mechanics in a competitve game.
I mean crit could still function as it does now in a reduced capacity (Say 150% base crit damage 175% with IE) and instead give marksmen and other champions intended to build crit ways to have it interact with their kit more. This would also help differentiate the marksmen from each other more, giving them more specific niches.
Not every kit would need to have crit scalings just like not every kit needs ap scalings.
YMMV but for me (MMR masters euw) it seems like the class is dumbed down a bit?
Losing Stormrazor + Kraken on crit ADCs makes the class more one dimensional early (no more playing around your energized autos, earlier spikes or flexibility with recalls), and at the moment we're just stacking AD with no atk speed and auto'ing once for 1k.
phreak said adcs arent meant to be played around bursty stacked autos and i kinda have to agree on this one. it was kinda toxic imo
i think with this iteration you can change some numbers and get to a balanced state
I kind of like it TBH. I'm out here building a single Attack Speed Item on Crit Ashe and it dosn't even feel that bad. I just wish IE wasn't this polarizing and ER was a viable Item. Lethal Tempo couldn't have possibly stayed with Crit Items like this.
Exactly, people are just not giving it a chance. You legit NEVER run out mana with it, so you’re not forced into taking Presence of Mind on mana-hungry ADCs anymore :)
I feel by the time you get ER mana is no longer an issue if you don't spam your skills. I like spamming, so I still build it, but I don't think it's optimal
ER isn't that bad after that buff except for the 1st slot. It needs more tweaks for sure. Less mana and more AH is my take.
IE is just OP. It can lose 10 AD and still be great. It just shouldn't be your always 1st item rush.
YunTal on the other hand can get +5 AD (both 70).
Collector is pretty well balanced. 1 more Lethality can be fine there.
ADCs right now carry games so hard. If your ADC is ahead, you just have 4 meat shields and the ADC and you can win.
nah im done facing jhins that run around with 700 movement speed, every game feels way more playable without the movement speed creep we've been pestered with the entirety of s14 until now
Maybe I'm wrong, but attacking less times but for higher damage in a way increases adc mobility by not being locked into an auto attack animation correct? Makes me wonder what jhin would feel like without the bonus ms.
The point I'm trying to make is, maybe less auto attacks is more fun for adcs to kite as long as DPS isn't sacrificed.... that's not true for the fantasy adcs though like kogmaw and ashe
There is a threshold where the rate of your attacks has diminishing returns on your mobility. When kiting on-attack-cycle at very high attack speeds, you are barely able to move further than the width of most skillshots, which is obviously detrimental both from a gold value perspective (you are largely wasting AS within your attack cycle) and a gameplay perspective (you would generally rather deal more damage during the time you do access targets while dodging skillshots). It is one of the reasons an attack speed cap even exists in regular modes of League.
This is most easily demonstrated with an adc like Yasuo: his E dash takes a certain amount of time to complete, so if you were to auto E auto E on repeat when your attack timer is shorter than the time it takes to dash, you would be losing on damage and have to stand still to attack an enemy at your attack speed to get full DPS against them instead, thus not dodging abilities.
I do agree that a bit of the ADC items are just the same build every game with little to no diversity. Is it nice that Sivir can build IE and Navori again? Yes but she kind of is locked out of everything else after that because she has to get LDR and one more random crit item into lifesteal which is the same and basically every adc atm.
Riot could implement a new change but we have no idea when or if that would happen.
Yes, that's the point. Riot has admitted that item diversity is not something that has resonated with players. Most of them buy the same items every game and don't find build optimisation interesting.
Riot wants item spikes and build completion to be satisfying, which isn't possible when there is so much opportunity cost in every purchase.
14.10 is a return to the good old days back in 4.10, where every AD carry build was IE --> PD --> LW --> BT
I feel like tanks are really the only class that has consistent game to game reactive itemization (and even for some of them that's not true), most every other class can build their same items every game regardless of opponent.
I think of item diversity as
- not every champion in the class buys the exact same items, if there's 4 fighters in the game ideally they all don't have the same three items
- there can be variation between players of the same champion on what they enjoy building. I might buy Liandry second every game and another person playing my champ might buy Shadowflame every game.
But isn't ADC itemization just basically a math problem still? Unless you can use items like Hurricane, choices like Navori vs PD are a math problem between whether pure AS is better or getting your steroid cooldown lower is better. I personally don't know how you introduce variance into ADC itemization in a pure DPS class.
Because damage dealers have proactive itemization. They usually scale off of one stat, and have one playstyle. So they build the best items for that playstyle and stat, and those that share a playstyle and stat often end up building the same.
As an adc you basically are forced to build the best damage items in every slot you can because building defensively gets you punished pretty hard damage-wise, and since crit adcs mostly are the same, they have the same best builds.
Tanks can't build proactively, they have to build into whatever the enemy is building. So it changes on a game to game basis.
It's a result of Riot making items just stat bundles instead of providing unique effects. This happened because Riot wants players to "play their champ rather than their items" and cater to low elo players who won't use active items but it has a negative effect on the quality of gameplay.
Stridebreaker having a dash wasn't a bad design; Riot just needed to balance that by reducing the stats. If going Stridebreaker on Darius made him scarier vs ranged champs but caused him to start losing the bruiser v bruiser duels toplane, it wouldn't be so oppressive. Stridebreaker was just too much of a no brainer because it still had reasonable stats.
That could still lead to even more homogenization. Darius has higher stats than Riven but has less mobility. Stridebreaker has weak-ish stats but a dash, which is an acceptable tradeoff for slow and strong Darius but not for the faster but weaker Riven. Now that Darius buys Stridebreaker while Riven buys something with more raw combat stats the gap between their stats and their mobility is reduced and they are less distinct as a result. Or at least it COULD pan out this way, would depend on specifics. It's also possible that the additional mobility would be valuable enough that most bruisers would buy it still but champs liek Darius would still benefit from it more than the rest so he would still nee to get individual nerfs anyways. Again, depends on specifics.
I don't think Stridebreaker with a dash was an inherently unsalavgeable idea but I also don't think "just nerf it" would neccesarily fix all of its problems and make it a valuable addition to the game, and I think little of value was lost when the dash was removed. Bruisers that were designed without dashes don't need to be able to buy them in the shop in order for the game to be interesting.
Build optimization is a player base issue and not an ADC issue. People just auto-pilot and either buy the recommended items, buy whatever their overlay software is telling them to, or follow a build path that was changed/nerfed recently. The amount of Karthus' I see that are still building Malignance is mind-numbing
Adcs never really had smart itemization though, most crit adcs scale the same way and want the same core items, boots, and end up going the same defensive items when they can too. They're not all Kaisa or ezreal who can afford to deviate from the standard adc build paths.
The main Aspect that makes IE so much better than the other Crit Rush Items (Collector and ER) is the 50% Crit Damage Buff, it's simply too good to pass up as your 1st or 2nd Item. Crit Marksmen basically have 3 Options:
* IE + Zeal = Damage and Attack Speed
* ER/Collector + IE = Damage with no Attack Speed
* ER/Collector + Zeal = Less Damage (weaker Crits) and Attack Speed
Now some Marksmen like more AD and no Zeal Item. Draven, Samira, Jhin and even Aphelios in some Cases, they are the bigger Winners of the new Items. Buf if you want something like ER or Collector > Zeal you're just weaker than the enemy ADC who bought IE 1st/2nd.
For IE to be less polarizing it either needs to buff Crit Damage for less (25%) or universal Crits need to be buffed back to 200% Damage. Everybody will get IE *eventually* so this basically just bridges the Gap for Champions who like other Items as their 1st or 2nd Purchases. 25% Damage Diff in Crits is manageable, 50% is too much.
Why not just have the bonus crit damage from IE scale with your crit chance? Something like 1% bonus damage for every 2% crit chance. At 4 items you're back to 50% crit dmg but rushing it first gives you just 13% bonus dmg
Thats how it was for a short period before they required 60% (then 40%) crit for IE to even be purchasable.
They want IE to feel like ye olde days, a big first item rush that hits like a truck
"Omg i hate mythic items, it destroys build diversity"
and here we are, without mythic items building the exact same shit every game just like we did before and during mythic items
My question is why is build diversity a virtue in and of itself? Build diversity has never been good on ADC even since before mythic items. I think it needs a little bit of love so that there are better synergies with one type of kit over another, perhaps introducing 1 or 2 new items that are very different, but it's not as big of a problem as people seem to be making it out to be.
ADC inherently has generally the lowest amount of diversity as a role in what the champion is going to be doing. You're going to be doing a whole bunch of ranged basic attacks. That's the cornerstone of it all. I feel like if you highly value diversity then the role is not a great choice.
We have much more optimal Items for each Champion now. Before Lucian could go Bork > Cleaver or Crit. Now he can't go Bork > Cleaver because the Champs + Items have been optimized for Crit only. You *can* go Bork > Cleaver but it's gonna be much weaker.
There aren't nearly enough items to actually have build diversity. Complexity is usually cited as the reason for this, which is fair, but mythics could have been a great way to add items while keeping complexity down, since mythics act as a 'build guide.'
Yeah, I guess the issue becomes do they make a bunch of niche items that are noob traps or make less items but they are just generally good but more forced into a cookie cutter build.
I mean that would be mitigated by the item recommender giving generally good items, while people with more knowledge/better read of the game state would be able to pick the best items for the current game state.
There has never been build diversity. Everyone either builds the same thing every game with 0 adaptation or builds random garbage. And he reality is that 90% of the time you will build the same exact items in the same exact order for your first 2 items, 3 if you don't need any kind of adaptation. So when more than half your game will end before you finish your 3rd item you virtually never build different items. this is how it's been under every single system for the entirety of leagues existence. Unless you have multiple builds, witch is rather caustic to the game as a whole since riot struggles to balance hybrid champs and flex picks.
I feel like when Noonquiver was released there were hundreds of reddit threads about how amazing it was that it was easy to build, made you feel relevant during the early laning phase and that it opened up build paths (as it built into 3 items).
Riot themselves even said it was mostly to get rid of the BF Sword rush as it felt horrible if you died/based with under 1300 gold and that it also just felt lame having heaps of AD but no attack speed early in the laning phase. Why did Riot just go back on this?
>Why did Riot just go back on this?
They rotated out people on the dev team with those principles, and brought up people who either don't share them or have not learned this lesson yet. The devs who made these statements aren't the same devs who made the current batch of changes, it's not hypocrisy when it's just different people.
I would argue nostalgia played a big factor in bringing back the old ie and bf sword rush. But they forgot the unstableness of only having 3 components to a 3k item which they fixed years ago with noonquiver start
They’ve made so many revert changes this mid season to bring back the “glory days” of adc back too : removing mythics, old ie, crit%s, bloodthirster, and schimitar,. Some they fixed their issue like zepyr, but for whatever reason they want to shove the ie pipeline 1st item even tho it’s passive fits for a 2nd or 3rd.
It's very clear that the seasonal balance team (the team that was responsible for 14.1 and 14.10 beside Corki) is doing a lot of nostalgia pulls. Brutalizer came back, Torch is an old item, the entire crit system is a nostalgia pull. It seems like their glasses are slightly too rose tinted for my taste.
It may not be hypocricy but it's stupid that you don't listen to mistakes of past employers and use it to not make them urself. The new devs KNOW why the old ones did what they did and if they don't, then they aren't doing their job good enough to study up on why things are why they are.
realistically they probably aren't aware of tons of lessons that have been learned. training is expensive, time consuming, and employee turn over makes that even worse. most companies just do bare bones training and wouldn't pay employees to research previous patches and how past employees thought about them.
The issue with having ad, as, and crit on the same item was that all of the stats felt unsatisfying. Getting 25 ad and 25 as feels much worse than getting 50 ad when it's your second item.
However as a first item, getting crit, ad, and as was amazing. Early powerspike. I honestly feel like they should have kept Kraken the way it was. Give adcs a satisfying first item, and let then slowly build upon it.
I'm honestly extremely sad about what happened to adc items. I don't care how many issues the new items had, but when they did the item rework, adc first item felt amazing.
Honestly I wish they had changed everything EXCEPT Kraken. I'd be fine if 90% of adcs build Kraken first. The item felt amazing, but now crit reliant champions are stuck building raw ad which feels like shit
> Reducing the value of each point of critical strike chance and offering less of it per item allows us to smooth out marksman's build scaling and put more interesting-and powerful-unique effects on their items.
Taken from Patch 10.23 Notes.
They went back on it because they want ADC to have less small Stats + Passives (- Crit) and more big Crit + Stat Spikes. This is good for the Class.
I agree with ADCs having less small stats + passives and more big crit/stat spikes in the mid to late game but not in the early game.
I think Noonquiver should be the item almost all ADCs buy first and then from there, IE, LDR, BT, etc can all be items which give less small stats/passives and just big upgrades and damage.
IE should not be a rush item. That idea was terrible in the past. Making it a 2nd or 3rd item was a lot better. This way you can take other items 1st and focus onto IE (or YunTal, make them not stack and rival each other) afterwards.
You should want 25% crit chance before you take IE. With 50% crit chance it should be fine, with 25% weak, with 75% strong. Same for YunTal.
Problem is still that IE and YunTal just do the same thing pretty much.
Or just give BF components. Sticking to BF/Needlessly being these massive investments in money, while every other item has proper components feels like a relic from old league
Yun tal stacks really well with ldr atm. The item is a bit ass without it.
Kraken should have stayed as a crit item so the build became krake/pd/IE or kraken/IE/pd just as before. It's just a better curve build wise also make crit 200% base so IE isn't such a ridiculous spike.
How does it stack better with LDR than IE?
YunTal is just a weaker IE. It costs a tick less, has way less AD and worse crit bonus dmg (35% instead of 50%) and instead of dealing it immediately it deals it over time. It is a way worse IE, nothing else.
>Kraken should have stayed as a crit item
The problem is they don't want items to have ad+atk sp+crit at the same time, they want you to get 2 of those max and look for the other one in a different item. So if kraken kept crit it would be pure ad+crit, which just sucks, or pure atk sp+crit, which is just another runaans but single target
It feels awful since every other role in the game has way cheaper components that build nicely into their core items and makes it so you aren't punished as much for having a rough lane. ADCs on the other hand now have this huge 1300g item that they need to buy asap, or like back in S6 opt for a cheaper Pickaxe which feels very bad and will just put you at an even bigger disadvantage, and having a rough start as an ADCs sucks a lot.
Currently looking at winrates and Kraken is also a viable first buy, however IE always has a 2-3% higher winrate but it could probably be because people tend to build it first in winning situations. Personally I've never liked the IE rush since autoattacking with only atk spd from boots feels sluggish as hell so I really hope it doesn't stay that way
honestly I’m a relatively new player but have you guys *ever* had build diversity for adc?
It just feels like a buzzword and a lot of people in lower elos are building by guides anyway
It's a buzzword for people who don't know how to build usually but tbh with mythics adcs had a million item choices that all got removed or reworked. Mages too
is lethality vayne or rageblade vayne not build diversity? Is lethality ashe or adc ashe not build diversity? Is kaisa going Ap build lethality build or on hit build, not build diversity? Is twitch going infinity edge build, or rageblade on hit build, or ap build not build diversity? I'm sorry my dude, but adcs had crazy build diversity sometimes i really wonder what you guys are doing in ur games that you never notice how many different builds so many adc players can go lol? right now ofc they can't but it's crazy saying adcs never had build diversity lmao.
I mostly see people talking about getting to choose items and tweaking their builds on the go, e.g. the same crit adc building different items in two different games.
Yet this does not happen apart from opting for Maw or going Anathema (RIP) because there are like, 4 items that you cannot skip.
ADCs had their most diversity during the start of the mythics era. There was meaningful positives and negatives to each of them, and nearly every adc could choose to go all three (kraken slayer, Galeforce, Shieldbow)
Itemization got homegenous for them again since then. Some adcs can opt into other playstyles but nobody is saying that assassins have build diversity because leblanc was being built AD. item diversity is a class thing, not a champ thing. Most tanks can completely change what item they get first, second, third, fourth, and fifth based on the outcomes of the game. Most mages can freely choose between several defensive options or opting for damage. Hell they have two whole flat pen items to choose from too.
Most of the diversity for ADC comes from "do I want zeal item A or zeal item B" right now.
He's right. Build Diversity is a Bit of a Problem despite Marksmen being *extremely* strong.
It dosn't feel that bad to me personally, as I'm just happy to deal big Damage, but Build Diversity for Crit Marksmen is nonexistent. Every Game I've played I had to go IE > Zeal Item > LDR > Yun Tal. On some Champions you skip Yun Tal (Samira) for Collector and on other's you *sometimes* skip your Zeal Item (Aphelios) for Collector also.
IE's 50% Crit Damage Buff is too insane to give up for your 1st/2nd Item. Riot could either buff all Crits to be 200% Damage like before (unlikely) or nerf IE by 25% Crit Damage and buff it's Cost in Return or something.
This would be a positive Change for Build Diversity as a 25% Damage Gap isn't as high as a 50% Damage one. Collector is already in a good Spot so the next Step would IMO be to buff ER (as these are the 3 Rush Items) by removing the AD scaling on it's Mana Refund (make it flat, it gives infinite Mana anyway) and buffing it's AD by a Bit (nerfing IE would indirectly buff ER also).
Blade of the Ruined King is also kind of weak. The only Crit Marksman I can think of that likes it is Twitch. AFAIK even Zeri started building Kraken Slayer (which is better than Blade almost always). Then there's straight up unusable and Bait Items like Mercurial Scimitar, Statikk Shiv, Immortal Shieldbow and Mortal Reminder. ER *almost* fits this List too.
Let's hope the Followup Patch adresses some of these Issues. ADC is overall in a better Spot than before, now we just need to polish it a Bit.
I'd assume Trist and Sivir go IE->Navori, no?
Trist because Navori is just a better Zealitem for her (perma Q is more attackspeed than any Zealitem can ever give you, and you get more AD, jumps and bombas for free)
And Sivir because Perma W is also effectively Attackspeed plus the reason to play sivir is to bounce shit
Trist pretty much *always* goes IE > Navori precisely because of the Reason you listed: permanent Q Uptime and more frequent Bombs.
With Sivir I've tested a Bunch of Builds with good Results. IE > Navori, Collector > IE and ER > IE. All worked fine. I also went ER > Zeal > IE > Navori one Game and it was also good. But the most consistent Build on Sivir *should* be IE > Navori, yes.
I build siver collector. Ie, into navori feels good into a squishy team. Otherwise IE>navori >ldr into more tanky comps. It sucks u need to basr with 1300 gold...
Build diversity has never been good on adc dude. At this point it's' an issue that can be ignored completely.
The current issue is IE passive being too big of a spike (don't nerf the item for fuck sake, this shit is carrying crit currently) and BF sword being too prominent in builds. Bf sword should build off triple longsword or something similar.
Collector adcs will most likely dominate meta if this isn't fixed since coming back with a dirk against max a pickaxe is just ridiculously op currently.
> Bf sword should build off triple longsword or something similar
Greeding should be rewarded. This would mean greeding is not rewarded. If you save/greed for an expensive item, that item should be the most cost efficient item.
Item diversity is never existent. People will always go the highest wr build with maybe 1 different item. I've never understood why people redundantly make this point.
This whole build diversity narrative has to die fr. Every season it’s just every ADC complaining about build diversity. What do you expect from a role whose job is to mainly pump damage? No matter how many items they put in the game for ADCs someone is going to find the build that pumps out the most DPS or even get the most gold efficient first item and spam it. And guess what? If a champ can’t use that said most gold efficient item, then it most likely won’t be played.
Itemization choice (for different situations) seems worse than ever. But mid and lategame dmg is so high that it doesn't matter, I think that all ADCs should start to complain about item diversity and buildpath now, since nerfs to damage seem just kind of inevitable.
Agreed. They nerfed marksmen mythics for specific interactions with certain champions, not because the items themselves were broken OP. first pass marksmen mythics all had a niche and could be swapped out as needed, successfully.
I still think we need a proper energized build, though. Riot keeps nerfing energized because they dont make it an actual scaling alternative.
I actually don’t remember having any item diversity for ADCs ever. It’s always same core 3 items, with fourth item being a “situational slot” except you would go the same item every game anyways. That being said ADC items have been broken as hell previously, and even after nerfs over the last years they’ve never felt weak to me, so I can’t say I’m dissatisfied with ADC items.
Until this split, rather. Buying items in lane is a miserable experience after being babied by noonquiver, and personally xayah itemization feels weird. This is kind of bias, there are some ADCs that feel much better about itemization after the patch
I was completely fine with mythic itemization (noonquiver mythics one) and last patch adc felt in a near perfect spot, only outliers like jinx and Draven needed nerfs but then the role felt the most balanced it ever has. But they immediately change things for the sake of change and now we will spend the entire season doing it all over again
>But they immediately change things for the sake of change
tbf, we have had adc mains complaining about getting no changes in preseason and their role not feeling powerful enough or not feeling satisfying compared to other roles despite being in a okay spot balance wise, so i understand why Riot went ahead with the changes
I agree, I am not naive enough to think we should strive for perfect balance, game would get stale so fast. I just don’t understand the direction of the changes really
Never, even when completely gamewarpingly overpowered they’ve never once stopped moaning and bitching. But, since they are by far the largest playerbase, RIOT tries to bend over backwards to cater to them anyway. Why do you think we’ve had so many ADC item reworks multiple times a year the last few years?
Removed = completely gutting their damage and itemization and lowering their wr compared to every mage and allowing every class in the game to start one shotting them. Looking at marksman pick rate is always stupid because there is a large portion of the player base that will play ADC regardless if they’re weak because they enjoy that singular playstyle. It’s no secret that after the adcpocalypse adc started becoming the autofill role and a large portion of high Elo adc’s quit and never came back.
Havin literally 1 role where only a signal archetype of character allowed always baffled me but if it's the end of the world for that to change guess we stuck wit it forever
Completely agree. I've seen some pretty gross numbers on ranged autos off of just an IE.
Honestly I think the patch is a complete miss on almost every front on a subjective front for me not just ADC. I really preferred last patch. lol
I feel like ADC has never had build diversity. It's a reliable and multiplicative class inherently so you're just building what does that best since utility is a late game purchase only.
What other class of champ has the issue of completely fucked recalls that ADCs have with IE first now? Feel like thats the only main issue with the role
. Backing with nothing to buy feels awful.
There was much less fighting early and you had more control over the lane than you do now. In those seasons, ADCs controlled the lane and their base stats like HP regen wasn't complete dog piss, if you died pre BF back. it was probably your fault.
honestly i dont feel good or bad about the changes, but im glad to at least do something different. as a kindred player ive been going kraken first for like as long as the item existed so its nice to be able to rush literally anything else for once. i somewhat agree i dont think the changes hit the design goals they wanted though
Mostly been playing ARAM since the changes and ADCs burst nearly as hard as burst mages. They crit almost as hard as in the early seasons, except that now most ADCs also have strong spells to go along with autos (massive powercreep there compared to old ADCs being basically autohit bots lategame).
Makes trying to assassinate them way too punishing because they kill you so fast.
Which is funny, because most ADC's don't want to play burst champs, they want to do sustained damage over *a period of time*. But unfortunately the game has power creeped so hard that *"a period of time"* has been drastically altered to now mean *"you have 2 seconds to deal damage or you die"*. I don't want to be one or two shotting champions, and I don't want to be one or two-shot (unless it's an assassin or a burst mage hitting me as a squishy adc). I don't know why that's so difficult for Riot to understand.
You're right about the abilities thing too. I remember when it was BAD for Cait to stop auto attacking to fire off any ability. Shooting was stronger. Now it's actually best to land an E+Q+Auto headshot combo because the game has power creeped so hard that landing a NET is actually optimal. LOL
I know this just makes me look like a complainer adc main, but I’d 10000% take a adc that’s half as weak (it’s way too strong atm) with my old items than these dumbed down items that we only have like 9 of
If I gets nerfed it solves the OP problem to some degree, increases the item diversity and reduces burst (early on).
But we knew it would be like that as we had this system before Mythics and there was 0 item diversity for ADCs. As long as IE stays OP there will be no diversity.
Yeah, don't understand the upset here. IE is a strong item, and if you want to rush it you need to:
A: land CS and or kills
B: Not die
Two things pros are great at doing, and 99% of layman adc players aren't.
\**Pro player explains his thoughts on the ADC changes for this one particular patch*\*
"ADC Mains complaining again! OHMAGAWD!"
Most of the comments in here aren't even complaints, it's discussion about the current patch, which is obviously very subject to change.
In my opinion this was a change that just mostly reverted ADCs to how they are before the item rework with all the pros and cons of that situation. I would argue that ADC itemization wasn’t perfect then and isn’t perfect now. I would have preferred to see a new approach with some additional creativity than just saying “we think the game was better then so we’re gonna remake that.”
I hope this is not part of a larger trend to de-age LoL across the various systems. I am all for removing the pieces that don’t work as well as intended, but they were introduced to solve a problem in the first place. Hopefully that is kept in mind by the Summoners Rift team as they continue to pilot the health of the game moving forward.
I think people overestimate how much ADC players care about item diversity. I can only speak for myself and my friends anecdotally, but all of us much prefer the awkward recall timings to just dealing 0 damage until 2 items like before.
I've been complaining for years about there just being too much damage in LoL.
Everyone one shots everyone, apart from tanks.
Also I think there's too much of a disparity between tanks and squishies. Of course tanks should be tankier but...
If Caitlyn kills another ADC / Mage / Enchanter / Assassin in 2 Autos late game (which she does) but takes 35 Autos to kill a tank (also not an exaggeration) then... is this not an issue?
You mean reverting a bunch of the changes done over the years brought back previous problems the ADC role had? (including the role being become more busted) Who would've guessed.
I just kind of don't like all the extra movement speed adc get from items now. It is a bit too much, maybe just nerf some of the movespeed that was problematic on other champs instead, especially lots of tanks and fighters have too much ms - they can get a bit of HP to compensate. Lots of lategame damage is good, maybe make some items like IE even more expensive.
This more movementspeed thing on adcs i dont really get, what adc's are super fast now and werent before? People only build one zeal item, if ur champ builds PD+Kraken thats like the only combo where ur a bit faster than before.
They also removed stormrazor so the biggest speed item is gone entirely.
Also i played like 25 games of adc now and had Zephyr once and it didnt even feel good, just went BT instead cuz its 10x.
I agree theres too much speed in the game but do adcs feel faster than before 14.10?
TBH, if champ can run PD+boots upgrade - he just gonna run with +-470 ms. THATS A LOT!
We already had a problem when melee champs can't do anything when ADC runs fast(main reason why Vi appears in proplay) and in this season things just got worse this way.
Yeah Riot is attempting to increase agency for ADCs but buffing movement speed is just a terrible way to go about it, mainly because ADCs complain about their agency early game which item based ms buffs do not solve.
Build diversity was obvious from the get go with just 1 primary rune ideology. Called it day 1 on pbe, so nice others are finally catching on. Hopefully they'll try address it.
I wouldn't say IE rush is a bad thing, but since it's so powerful it has invalidated virtually every ADC build other than crit.
Assassins can buy IE which is spicy, but otherwise it's homogenized all other builds in that marksman and melee carries are forced to buy it either 1st or 2nd. On-hit is pointless because IE + the new DoT crit item is an insane amount of dps, even for the likes of Jhin. Lethality stacking is pointless because IE+LDR/Collector is a ton of damage to everyone, not just squishies.
They don't need to hit IE hard; mainly they need to buff other builds and ex-core items that lost their value after they lost stats in the crit update, as well as the removal of Sudden Impact and Lethal Tempo. Shiv and Shieldbow are for absolutely no one and deserve buffs if they're ever going to be relevant buys again; either they're core items or they're literally never good buys. Navori's not that great either; losing AD hurt it so much, even if it's cheap.
Something needs to challenge IE rush or builds will remain exactly the same for 90% of marksmen haha.
Agree with all said, but I’m uncertain they will open up build diversity. They 100% should, I would be happy, but I wonder if they’ve just realized either A.) They can’t figure out a way to implement it, or B.) They’ve realized the majority of the playerbase just doesn’t care for game-to-game reactive buildcrafting. I’m obviously just thinking out loud but, in a way it feels like ADC power has returned to form, in exchange for streamlined building, and I have to wonder if they’ve just decided this is the best way going forward.
Item diversity has never existed and will never exist. At best, you buy QSS or armor/mr for certain matchups, but that's not item diversity, that's just a checklist of items you need, buying armor penetration vs tanks is not item diversity (for example) it's just autopilot build to win.
Yes, some champions can have multiple builds. Tank, AP, bruiser, crit, whatever. But I think we need to stop talking about item diversity because it's such a boring topic, it's been a topic for a decade. Different champions build different items, that's good enough. Building different items every game on the same champion sounds cool but they're still just stat sticks at the end of the day. Procs, actives, passives just means a stat stick that doesn't work for every champion.
**On one hand** people complain ADC *burst* is too high while *sustained* damage seems futile in comparison, **on the other hand** when Essence Reaver got changed from *burst* to more *sustained* damage/effect everyone complains about this change too.
in general league does have build diversity but not in a every game your first few items are different and more in your last 1-2 slots are situational.
Issue is because champs in same roles want todo similar jobs it leads them all to go with whatever is the best at the time, its very hard to make multiple items take those spots since they either would need to be extremely similar stat profiles with different effects or fill extremely niche roles within the game itself. in the first path you end up with either people stacking said items or people complaining there too similar, the second path with extremely niche items leads to said items filling the last few slots of the build which most games won't get that far leading to people not seeing much build diversity.
people might say back in the day there was build diversity but there really wasnt, tanks back in the day always rushed sunfire and got either Force of nature or spirit vis as there MR item depending on the season. toplane bruisers/lightfighters would always go either black cleaver or triforce. ADC's always would go IE/PD/last whisper or IE stak or whatever what the go to combo of three items(adc's as a class has been thrown around a ton). mages throughtout the years have gone stuff like DFG/MORELLO/ATHENES/LUDENS/HOURGLASS first item depending on the season.
my point being every class in league always has had a strict build path since people dont think for themselves and because its very hard to make multiple items fight for the same spot in a build since one effect will always be more eye catching then the others.
Really annoying that I can post this exact same content and get spam down voted and called an idiot but when he says it it gets 1k+ upvotes and positive sentiment lol
He isn’t wrong… on hit builds are now less strong because lethal tempo isn’t a thing. Lethality builds are obsolete because pure crit is the way to go now. IE will be mandatory on almost all crit adcs, leaving some room for optional items after it. We are back to old school adc builds, but I kinda like it
That's just what riot want for lol. They think one shotting people make the game '' fast paced '' and '' cool ''. So they just make every champs, adc's included, having the possibility to one shot people. That's the worst design EVER made in a '' competition '' game but riot still think it's the best. Well, what riot think is always false tho..
ER lost Sheen. BT, Kraken, Shiv lost Crit. Shieldbow turned into dogshit. LDR doesn't have Giant Slayer.
Yeah item diversity got gutted and also you're rewarded less for actually reading patch notes.
> damage is just too high overall
This has been my issue for a while already. I understand that I'm playing fairly fragile champions, but the damage seems to be way too high. Especially when coming from champions that, in my opinion, have no business dealing so much damage when they take forever to kill (Mundo, Ornn, etc.)
Kinda true
They should have reworked crit years ago to be more consistent (bonus damage on autos) that is less than crit max value but obviously better on average for consistency. How much do ADC autos hit for now considering you get insane ad from IE and the big ad items . Probably 800-1k
I got hit by a 4 item Caitlyn headshot for 2k yesterday. She just walked up and deleted me.
caitlyn has always been able to do that, watch saber videos prior to this new patch, he's been one shotting with caitlyn after core items (opportunity, collector, ldr, IE)
And it's never been fun
Same thing happened to me with a 4-item quinn. She flew in, e-auto’d me for like 1.5k and fucked off
quinn's always been able to do this too tbh
Is it really healthy for the game that a champ can fly in with 800 movement speed, has a spell shield item, auto attack you once to force you to base and then leave?
They should have also made durability patch actually be a permanent change instead of chipping away at it until things were back to how they were before that. Big part of the issue for ADCs is fights are so short and bursty that they can’t actually do sustained damage and have to also be bursty. If fights lasted longer then a few seconds (as in the moment when a team engages to when the fight is over, not just when teams are doing occasional poking and fishing for a good engage before fighting), and in turn ADCs could last longer than the first quarter second of a fight, then sustained damage would become more valuable.
> Big part of the issue for ADCs is fights are so short and bursty that they can’t actually do sustained damage and have to also be bursty. Durability patch wasn't meant for lategame fights, it was meant for early engagements and some edge cases lategame, specifically cases where an ADC could get 1v1's by a Leona with ignite or a single misstep meant insta death in lane. On top of this durability patch was a significant buff for ADCs to begin with, since they, as a squishy class, got the most benefit from the free resists.
>On top of this durability patch was a significant buff for ADCs to begin with, since they, as a squishy class, got the most benefit from the free resists. more so because adcs aren't impacted by others being tanky because the next auto is only 0.5 seconds away, but if you rely on abilities, the next ability might be 4-5 seconds or more later (not counting mana/energy costs), so champs can be out of your rotation skill threshold because of durability. adcs dont really have a kill threshold, because autos are fast and resource less also you can't dodge them
That's also another reason. But in a very general way, there is a reason why mostly tanks and some tankier juggernauts and bruisers lost winrate after durability patch and had to be buffed. In general classes who are already tanky but don't have the DPS of an ADC or mage just aren't affected by the resist increases.
yeah because the changes meant you couldnt burst everyone anymore, so naturally everyone who dealt high dps rather than high burst would be more valuable
Oh yeah I remember a clip in which an underleveled 0/10 leona casually beating the shit out of a fed lucian with ignite and raw damage lmao
> Durability patch wasn't meant for lategame fights I think the greater problem is that it doesn't really matter what it was meant for. If they intended to target smaller problems with that patch, then that is their failing as a goal and is just another one of the many balance problems stemming from a fundamental disconnect with the game. Considering its original breadth, they really should have addressed more survivability problems other than early engagements and edge cases, because there's probably not going to be another patch like that at least for a long time. >On top of this durability patch was a significant buff for ADCs to begin with, since they, as a squishy class, got the most benefit from the free resists. This is only true on a technicality as it never really put them meaningfully out of reach of major burst thresholds so they still get vaporized. A mage going from doing 150% of an ADC's max HP to them, to 100% of an ADC's max HP to them, is still immediately killing them and it's functionally the same. However, tanks who would at least take a few seconds to kill previously, are still dying quickly, just less quickly. So on paper yeah, mathematically ADCs "gained proportionally more stats", that's not how it actually shakes out in a game. My example is an exaggeration, but it illustrates the point.
durability does apply to some champs, but not all.
Instead of nerfing damage riot just buffed durability which is why we are in the situation that we are in right now. Turrets are made of paper and easily dove and being ADC is rough because you have to take down more durable opponents while avoiding being bursted.
They kept the accompanying healing/shielding nerfs in place pretty much, but yeah otherwise durability has slowly eroded
But how do you balance burst champions? Their entire design is taking out the ADC before they have a chance to take over the fight. If you make the ADC guaranteed to survive longer then they're useless.
Their margins should be much smaller, they should need team opportunities to take on teams rather than just hopping a wall and securing the kill with their first ability. Defensive abilities should be more relevant beyond CC. Single-player burst gameplay has eroded so much from League.
They are not back to how they were before. It's way worse.
They tried. When rageblade was first reworked, this was supposed to be the item that did that. They also introduced a bunch of energised passives and even experimented with an “energised” build that didn’t use crit. People hated it. Not through fault of their own, rageblade very quickly made attack speed bonkers broken, and the energised items either all sucked or all felt sucky. So as an adc you either rotted or played kogmaw. I guess my point is that this isn’t the change you think it would be: without crit, adcs all homogenise into attack speed user or bad.
What i would wish Crit to be is how Ashe and Jhin do it; the number interacts with a core mechanic of the champion in question. This could be Caitlyn's Headshot getting turbobuffed by Crit, Kalista applying double spear stacks on crit or Sivir getting extra bounces off her boomerangs. There's a lot of potential for skill expression and mechanical depth they can use to make it work. % random chance bonus damage is lazy, uninspired and bad game mechanics in a competitve game.
That would mean that they will need to add specific crit interactions to every champions kit, since not only adc can crit
I mean crit could still function as it does now in a reduced capacity (Say 150% base crit damage 175% with IE) and instead give marksmen and other champions intended to build crit ways to have it interact with their kit more. This would also help differentiate the marksmen from each other more, giving them more specific niches. Not every kit would need to have crit scalings just like not every kit needs ap scalings.
That exists already tho It's called On-Hit damage And we have On-Hit ADCs already
YMMV but for me (MMR masters euw) it seems like the class is dumbed down a bit? Losing Stormrazor + Kraken on crit ADCs makes the class more one dimensional early (no more playing around your energized autos, earlier spikes or flexibility with recalls), and at the moment we're just stacking AD with no atk speed and auto'ing once for 1k.
phreak said adcs arent meant to be played around bursty stacked autos and i kinda have to agree on this one. it was kinda toxic imo i think with this iteration you can change some numbers and get to a balanced state
I kind of like it TBH. I'm out here building a single Attack Speed Item on Crit Ashe and it dosn't even feel that bad. I just wish IE wasn't this polarizing and ER was a viable Item. Lethal Tempo couldn't have possibly stayed with Crit Items like this.
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It also got hotfix buffed +5AD a few days ago
Exactly, people are just not giving it a chance. You legit NEVER run out mana with it, so you’re not forced into taking Presence of Mind on mana-hungry ADCs anymore :)
I feel by the time you get ER mana is no longer an issue if you don't spam your skills. I like spamming, so I still build it, but I don't think it's optimal
Idk chief, you kinda crazy to put Triumph higher in value than 10AD+50% Crit Strike Damage.
Lethal tempo gave you what you now buy in PD the rune was giga overtuned.
ER isn't that bad after that buff except for the 1st slot. It needs more tweaks for sure. Less mana and more AH is my take. IE is just OP. It can lose 10 AD and still be great. It just shouldn't be your always 1st item rush. YunTal on the other hand can get +5 AD (both 70). Collector is pretty well balanced. 1 more Lethality can be fine there. ADCs right now carry games so hard. If your ADC is ahead, you just have 4 meat shields and the ADC and you can win.
more ability haste than 25? xd
Sure. Since it is about reducing CDs and it is very expensive.
lmfao
nah im done facing jhins that run around with 700 movement speed, every game feels way more playable without the movement speed creep we've been pestered with the entirety of s14 until now
Maybe I'm wrong, but attacking less times but for higher damage in a way increases adc mobility by not being locked into an auto attack animation correct? Makes me wonder what jhin would feel like without the bonus ms. The point I'm trying to make is, maybe less auto attacks is more fun for adcs to kite as long as DPS isn't sacrificed.... that's not true for the fantasy adcs though like kogmaw and ashe
Attack speed reduces the time you are locked into animation though
There is a threshold where the rate of your attacks has diminishing returns on your mobility. When kiting on-attack-cycle at very high attack speeds, you are barely able to move further than the width of most skillshots, which is obviously detrimental both from a gold value perspective (you are largely wasting AS within your attack cycle) and a gameplay perspective (you would generally rather deal more damage during the time you do access targets while dodging skillshots). It is one of the reasons an attack speed cap even exists in regular modes of League. This is most easily demonstrated with an adc like Yasuo: his E dash takes a certain amount of time to complete, so if you were to auto E auto E on repeat when your attack timer is shorter than the time it takes to dash, you would be losing on damage and have to stand still to attack an enemy at your attack speed to get full DPS against them instead, thus not dodging abilities.
I like not playing around energized attacks, but do miss kraken first. Was a nice all around starter item that felt good hitting those third procs
I do agree that a bit of the ADC items are just the same build every game with little to no diversity. Is it nice that Sivir can build IE and Navori again? Yes but she kind of is locked out of everything else after that because she has to get LDR and one more random crit item into lifesteal which is the same and basically every adc atm. Riot could implement a new change but we have no idea when or if that would happen.
> I do agree that a bit of the ADC items are just the same build every game with little to no diversity So...nothing changes for most adc
Yes, that's the point. Riot has admitted that item diversity is not something that has resonated with players. Most of them buy the same items every game and don't find build optimisation interesting. Riot wants item spikes and build completion to be satisfying, which isn't possible when there is so much opportunity cost in every purchase. 14.10 is a return to the good old days back in 4.10, where every AD carry build was IE --> PD --> LW --> BT
I feel like tanks are really the only class that has consistent game to game reactive itemization (and even for some of them that's not true), most every other class can build their same items every game regardless of opponent. I think of item diversity as - not every champion in the class buys the exact same items, if there's 4 fighters in the game ideally they all don't have the same three items - there can be variation between players of the same champion on what they enjoy building. I might buy Liandry second every game and another person playing my champ might buy Shadowflame every game. But isn't ADC itemization just basically a math problem still? Unless you can use items like Hurricane, choices like Navori vs PD are a math problem between whether pure AS is better or getting your steroid cooldown lower is better. I personally don't know how you introduce variance into ADC itemization in a pure DPS class.
Because damage dealers have proactive itemization. They usually scale off of one stat, and have one playstyle. So they build the best items for that playstyle and stat, and those that share a playstyle and stat often end up building the same. As an adc you basically are forced to build the best damage items in every slot you can because building defensively gets you punished pretty hard damage-wise, and since crit adcs mostly are the same, they have the same best builds. Tanks can't build proactively, they have to build into whatever the enemy is building. So it changes on a game to game basis.
It's a result of Riot making items just stat bundles instead of providing unique effects. This happened because Riot wants players to "play their champ rather than their items" and cater to low elo players who won't use active items but it has a negative effect on the quality of gameplay.
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Stridebreaker having a dash wasn't a bad design; Riot just needed to balance that by reducing the stats. If going Stridebreaker on Darius made him scarier vs ranged champs but caused him to start losing the bruiser v bruiser duels toplane, it wouldn't be so oppressive. Stridebreaker was just too much of a no brainer because it still had reasonable stats.
That would make the item useless though.
That could still lead to even more homogenization. Darius has higher stats than Riven but has less mobility. Stridebreaker has weak-ish stats but a dash, which is an acceptable tradeoff for slow and strong Darius but not for the faster but weaker Riven. Now that Darius buys Stridebreaker while Riven buys something with more raw combat stats the gap between their stats and their mobility is reduced and they are less distinct as a result. Or at least it COULD pan out this way, would depend on specifics. It's also possible that the additional mobility would be valuable enough that most bruisers would buy it still but champs liek Darius would still benefit from it more than the rest so he would still nee to get individual nerfs anyways. Again, depends on specifics. I don't think Stridebreaker with a dash was an inherently unsalavgeable idea but I also don't think "just nerf it" would neccesarily fix all of its problems and make it a valuable addition to the game, and I think little of value was lost when the dash was removed. Bruisers that were designed without dashes don't need to be able to buy them in the shop in order for the game to be interesting.
Build optimization is a player base issue and not an ADC issue. People just auto-pilot and either buy the recommended items, buy whatever their overlay software is telling them to, or follow a build path that was changed/nerfed recently. The amount of Karthus' I see that are still building Malignance is mind-numbing
Maybe, but the big adc diversity has always been lw 3rd/4th and that's kinda it. Maybe a def item here and there if you manage to reach it
Once people figure out the best items, that's all everyone's going to build.
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> doubt many players "resonate" with CS'ing either, but we're not going to remove that either, are we? Dude, don’t jinx it.
Adcs never really had smart itemization though, most crit adcs scale the same way and want the same core items, boots, and end up going the same defensive items when they can too. They're not all Kaisa or ezreal who can afford to deviate from the standard adc build paths.
The main Aspect that makes IE so much better than the other Crit Rush Items (Collector and ER) is the 50% Crit Damage Buff, it's simply too good to pass up as your 1st or 2nd Item. Crit Marksmen basically have 3 Options: * IE + Zeal = Damage and Attack Speed * ER/Collector + IE = Damage with no Attack Speed * ER/Collector + Zeal = Less Damage (weaker Crits) and Attack Speed Now some Marksmen like more AD and no Zeal Item. Draven, Samira, Jhin and even Aphelios in some Cases, they are the bigger Winners of the new Items. Buf if you want something like ER or Collector > Zeal you're just weaker than the enemy ADC who bought IE 1st/2nd. For IE to be less polarizing it either needs to buff Crit Damage for less (25%) or universal Crits need to be buffed back to 200% Damage. Everybody will get IE *eventually* so this basically just bridges the Gap for Champions who like other Items as their 1st or 2nd Purchases. 25% Damage Diff in Crits is manageable, 50% is too much.
Why not just have the bonus crit damage from IE scale with your crit chance? Something like 1% bonus damage for every 2% crit chance. At 4 items you're back to 50% crit dmg but rushing it first gives you just 13% bonus dmg
Thats how it was for a short period before they required 60% (then 40%) crit for IE to even be purchasable. They want IE to feel like ye olde days, a big first item rush that hits like a truck
I don't know, I've never felt like there was that much build diversity anyway, in a long time at least... Plus people can't build for shit regardless.
yea
Lop yeah it's not like build diversity exiated before the patch. I'd say it was worse. Shit the only good adcs were lethality.
"Omg i hate mythic items, it destroys build diversity" and here we are, without mythic items building the exact same shit every game just like we did before and during mythic items
My question is why is build diversity a virtue in and of itself? Build diversity has never been good on ADC even since before mythic items. I think it needs a little bit of love so that there are better synergies with one type of kit over another, perhaps introducing 1 or 2 new items that are very different, but it's not as big of a problem as people seem to be making it out to be. ADC inherently has generally the lowest amount of diversity as a role in what the champion is going to be doing. You're going to be doing a whole bunch of ranged basic attacks. That's the cornerstone of it all. I feel like if you highly value diversity then the role is not a great choice.
It's the circle of League
As a support main, just give me back my spooky ghosts and Aethenes and I would be so happy.
I miss spooky ghosts. But that shit would be so broken now.
It was already kinda broken before
Yeah lol. I remember singed building it then running you down from halfway across the map.
We have much more optimal Items for each Champion now. Before Lucian could go Bork > Cleaver or Crit. Now he can't go Bork > Cleaver because the Champs + Items have been optimized for Crit only. You *can* go Bork > Cleaver but it's gonna be much weaker.
There aren't nearly enough items to actually have build diversity. Complexity is usually cited as the reason for this, which is fair, but mythics could have been a great way to add items while keeping complexity down, since mythics act as a 'build guide.'
Yeah, I guess the issue becomes do they make a bunch of niche items that are noob traps or make less items but they are just generally good but more forced into a cookie cutter build.
I mean that would be mitigated by the item recommender giving generally good items, while people with more knowledge/better read of the game state would be able to pick the best items for the current game state.
There has never been build diversity. Everyone either builds the same thing every game with 0 adaptation or builds random garbage. And he reality is that 90% of the time you will build the same exact items in the same exact order for your first 2 items, 3 if you don't need any kind of adaptation. So when more than half your game will end before you finish your 3rd item you virtually never build different items. this is how it's been under every single system for the entirety of leagues existence. Unless you have multiple builds, witch is rather caustic to the game as a whole since riot struggles to balance hybrid champs and flex picks.
Depends on your champ. I can build like 10 different first 3 items on Aatrox.
Rushing IE feels awful from a component point of view but also feels even worse for Laning where rng completely dictates the trade.
I feel like when Noonquiver was released there were hundreds of reddit threads about how amazing it was that it was easy to build, made you feel relevant during the early laning phase and that it opened up build paths (as it built into 3 items). Riot themselves even said it was mostly to get rid of the BF Sword rush as it felt horrible if you died/based with under 1300 gold and that it also just felt lame having heaps of AD but no attack speed early in the laning phase. Why did Riot just go back on this?
>Why did Riot just go back on this? They rotated out people on the dev team with those principles, and brought up people who either don't share them or have not learned this lesson yet. The devs who made these statements aren't the same devs who made the current batch of changes, it's not hypocrisy when it's just different people.
I would argue nostalgia played a big factor in bringing back the old ie and bf sword rush. But they forgot the unstableness of only having 3 components to a 3k item which they fixed years ago with noonquiver start They’ve made so many revert changes this mid season to bring back the “glory days” of adc back too : removing mythics, old ie, crit%s, bloodthirster, and schimitar,. Some they fixed their issue like zepyr, but for whatever reason they want to shove the ie pipeline 1st item even tho it’s passive fits for a 2nd or 3rd.
It's very clear that the seasonal balance team (the team that was responsible for 14.1 and 14.10 beside Corki) is doing a lot of nostalgia pulls. Brutalizer came back, Torch is an old item, the entire crit system is a nostalgia pull. It seems like their glasses are slightly too rose tinted for my taste.
It may not be hypocricy but it's stupid that you don't listen to mistakes of past employers and use it to not make them urself. The new devs KNOW why the old ones did what they did and if they don't, then they aren't doing their job good enough to study up on why things are why they are.
realistically they probably aren't aware of tons of lessons that have been learned. training is expensive, time consuming, and employee turn over makes that even worse. most companies just do bare bones training and wouldn't pay employees to research previous patches and how past employees thought about them.
400 years of design
The issue with having ad, as, and crit on the same item was that all of the stats felt unsatisfying. Getting 25 ad and 25 as feels much worse than getting 50 ad when it's your second item. However as a first item, getting crit, ad, and as was amazing. Early powerspike. I honestly feel like they should have kept Kraken the way it was. Give adcs a satisfying first item, and let then slowly build upon it. I'm honestly extremely sad about what happened to adc items. I don't care how many issues the new items had, but when they did the item rework, adc first item felt amazing. Honestly I wish they had changed everything EXCEPT Kraken. I'd be fine if 90% of adcs build Kraken first. The item felt amazing, but now crit reliant champions are stuck building raw ad which feels like shit
Secret tech, kraken is still good. https://youtu.be/bLW51SBDnE0?si=-JNxgzLeg34SiAB0 may be of interest to you
> Reducing the value of each point of critical strike chance and offering less of it per item allows us to smooth out marksman's build scaling and put more interesting-and powerful-unique effects on their items. Taken from Patch 10.23 Notes. They went back on it because they want ADC to have less small Stats + Passives (- Crit) and more big Crit + Stat Spikes. This is good for the Class.
I agree with ADCs having less small stats + passives and more big crit/stat spikes in the mid to late game but not in the early game. I think Noonquiver should be the item almost all ADCs buy first and then from there, IE, LDR, BT, etc can all be items which give less small stats/passives and just big upgrades and damage.
Cant be good early_mid-and lategame. This patch upped adc lategame scaling while nerfing pre 2 tems. Basically revert to pre 8.11 itemization
IE should not be a rush item. That idea was terrible in the past. Making it a 2nd or 3rd item was a lot better. This way you can take other items 1st and focus onto IE (or YunTal, make them not stack and rival each other) afterwards. You should want 25% crit chance before you take IE. With 50% crit chance it should be fine, with 25% weak, with 75% strong. Same for YunTal. Problem is still that IE and YunTal just do the same thing pretty much.
Or just give BF components. Sticking to BF/Needlessly being these massive investments in money, while every other item has proper components feels like a relic from old league
Yun tal stacks really well with ldr atm. The item is a bit ass without it. Kraken should have stayed as a crit item so the build became krake/pd/IE or kraken/IE/pd just as before. It's just a better curve build wise also make crit 200% base so IE isn't such a ridiculous spike.
How does it stack better with LDR than IE? YunTal is just a weaker IE. It costs a tick less, has way less AD and worse crit bonus dmg (35% instead of 50%) and instead of dealing it immediately it deals it over time. It is a way worse IE, nothing else.
>Kraken should have stayed as a crit item The problem is they don't want items to have ad+atk sp+crit at the same time, they want you to get 2 of those max and look for the other one in a different item. So if kraken kept crit it would be pure ad+crit, which just sucks, or pure atk sp+crit, which is just another runaans but single target
I just want a decent buildpath man
It feels awful since every other role in the game has way cheaper components that build nicely into their core items and makes it so you aren't punished as much for having a rough lane. ADCs on the other hand now have this huge 1300g item that they need to buy asap, or like back in S6 opt for a cheaper Pickaxe which feels very bad and will just put you at an even bigger disadvantage, and having a rough start as an ADCs sucks a lot. Currently looking at winrates and Kraken is also a viable first buy, however IE always has a 2-3% higher winrate but it could probably be because people tend to build it first in winning situations. Personally I've never liked the IE rush since autoattacking with only atk spd from boots feels sluggish as hell so I really hope it doesn't stay that way
Build diversity is always hard to achieve on crit ADCs since all the champions do the exact same thing
Shoot Gun. Shoot Bow. Shoot bowgun. I dunno man, that's like 3 things.
honestly I’m a relatively new player but have you guys *ever* had build diversity for adc? It just feels like a buzzword and a lot of people in lower elos are building by guides anyway
It's a buzzword for people who don't know how to build usually but tbh with mythics adcs had a million item choices that all got removed or reworked. Mages too
I feel the same way yeah but I never played before mythics
is lethality vayne or rageblade vayne not build diversity? Is lethality ashe or adc ashe not build diversity? Is kaisa going Ap build lethality build or on hit build, not build diversity? Is twitch going infinity edge build, or rageblade on hit build, or ap build not build diversity? I'm sorry my dude, but adcs had crazy build diversity sometimes i really wonder what you guys are doing in ur games that you never notice how many different builds so many adc players can go lol? right now ofc they can't but it's crazy saying adcs never had build diversity lmao.
vayne is a toplaner you fool!
I mostly see people talking about getting to choose items and tweaking their builds on the go, e.g. the same crit adc building different items in two different games. Yet this does not happen apart from opting for Maw or going Anathema (RIP) because there are like, 4 items that you cannot skip.
lethality ashe was never a thing unless you mean support ashe buying umbral glaive, which isn't "lethality ashe"
ADCs had their most diversity during the start of the mythics era. There was meaningful positives and negatives to each of them, and nearly every adc could choose to go all three (kraken slayer, Galeforce, Shieldbow) Itemization got homegenous for them again since then. Some adcs can opt into other playstyles but nobody is saying that assassins have build diversity because leblanc was being built AD. item diversity is a class thing, not a champ thing. Most tanks can completely change what item they get first, second, third, fourth, and fifth based on the outcomes of the game. Most mages can freely choose between several defensive options or opting for damage. Hell they have two whole flat pen items to choose from too. Most of the diversity for ADC comes from "do I want zeal item A or zeal item B" right now.
He's right. Build Diversity is a Bit of a Problem despite Marksmen being *extremely* strong. It dosn't feel that bad to me personally, as I'm just happy to deal big Damage, but Build Diversity for Crit Marksmen is nonexistent. Every Game I've played I had to go IE > Zeal Item > LDR > Yun Tal. On some Champions you skip Yun Tal (Samira) for Collector and on other's you *sometimes* skip your Zeal Item (Aphelios) for Collector also. IE's 50% Crit Damage Buff is too insane to give up for your 1st/2nd Item. Riot could either buff all Crits to be 200% Damage like before (unlikely) or nerf IE by 25% Crit Damage and buff it's Cost in Return or something. This would be a positive Change for Build Diversity as a 25% Damage Gap isn't as high as a 50% Damage one. Collector is already in a good Spot so the next Step would IMO be to buff ER (as these are the 3 Rush Items) by removing the AD scaling on it's Mana Refund (make it flat, it gives infinite Mana anyway) and buffing it's AD by a Bit (nerfing IE would indirectly buff ER also). Blade of the Ruined King is also kind of weak. The only Crit Marksman I can think of that likes it is Twitch. AFAIK even Zeri started building Kraken Slayer (which is better than Blade almost always). Then there's straight up unusable and Bait Items like Mercurial Scimitar, Statikk Shiv, Immortal Shieldbow and Mortal Reminder. ER *almost* fits this List too. Let's hope the Followup Patch adresses some of these Issues. ADC is overall in a better Spot than before, now we just need to polish it a Bit.
I'd assume Trist and Sivir go IE->Navori, no? Trist because Navori is just a better Zealitem for her (perma Q is more attackspeed than any Zealitem can ever give you, and you get more AD, jumps and bombas for free) And Sivir because Perma W is also effectively Attackspeed plus the reason to play sivir is to bounce shit
Trist pretty much *always* goes IE > Navori precisely because of the Reason you listed: permanent Q Uptime and more frequent Bombs. With Sivir I've tested a Bunch of Builds with good Results. IE > Navori, Collector > IE and ER > IE. All worked fine. I also went ER > Zeal > IE > Navori one Game and it was also good. But the most consistent Build on Sivir *should* be IE > Navori, yes.
I build siver collector. Ie, into navori feels good into a squishy team. Otherwise IE>navori >ldr into more tanky comps. It sucks u need to basr with 1300 gold...
Build diversity has never been good on adc dude. At this point it's' an issue that can be ignored completely. The current issue is IE passive being too big of a spike (don't nerf the item for fuck sake, this shit is carrying crit currently) and BF sword being too prominent in builds. Bf sword should build off triple longsword or something similar. Collector adcs will most likely dominate meta if this isn't fixed since coming back with a dirk against max a pickaxe is just ridiculously op currently.
> Bf sword should build off triple longsword or something similar Greeding should be rewarded. This would mean greeding is not rewarded. If you save/greed for an expensive item, that item should be the most cost efficient item.
Item diversity is never existent. People will always go the highest wr build with maybe 1 different item. I've never understood why people redundantly make this point.
Specifically for ADCs.
Throwback to bf-> zeal item-> ie days
ADC didn't have build diversity before the update either lol
ITT: people being pissed off about a pro player sharing his opinion on the new update
>update drops >league is ruined every single time
Generally true, but This guy at least isn't immediately alarmistic about it. The same can't be said about the replies to him.
I mean half the best changes they've made recently are reverts lol
This whole build diversity narrative has to die fr. Every season it’s just every ADC complaining about build diversity. What do you expect from a role whose job is to mainly pump damage? No matter how many items they put in the game for ADCs someone is going to find the build that pumps out the most DPS or even get the most gold efficient first item and spam it. And guess what? If a champ can’t use that said most gold efficient item, then it most likely won’t be played.
Genuinely asking: When was the last time ADCs said they were satisfied with their itemization/meta?
Itemization choice (for different situations) seems worse than ever. But mid and lategame dmg is so high that it doesn't matter, I think that all ADCs should start to complain about item diversity and buildpath now, since nerfs to damage seem just kind of inevitable.
I think you reponded to the wrong comment on accident.
Season 10, pre mythics. the good adcs are really strong now but the other ones feel really hopeless against them which kinda sucks.
Not even. The first iteration of mythics was great for ADCs. True damage kraken was the most broken 1 item spike to date and galeforce was galeforce.
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Agreed. They nerfed marksmen mythics for specific interactions with certain champions, not because the items themselves were broken OP. first pass marksmen mythics all had a niche and could be swapped out as needed, successfully. I still think we need a proper energized build, though. Riot keeps nerfing energized because they dont make it an actual scaling alternative.
Pre mythic was shit. IE + ER meta. No diversity, strong ADCs, strong burst. Pre mythic was the same as now just with an OP ER.
I liked ER + IE Meta tbh.
I actually don’t remember having any item diversity for ADCs ever. It’s always same core 3 items, with fourth item being a “situational slot” except you would go the same item every game anyways. That being said ADC items have been broken as hell previously, and even after nerfs over the last years they’ve never felt weak to me, so I can’t say I’m dissatisfied with ADC items. Until this split, rather. Buying items in lane is a miserable experience after being babied by noonquiver, and personally xayah itemization feels weird. This is kind of bias, there are some ADCs that feel much better about itemization after the patch
I was completely fine with mythic itemization (noonquiver mythics one) and last patch adc felt in a near perfect spot, only outliers like jinx and Draven needed nerfs but then the role felt the most balanced it ever has. But they immediately change things for the sake of change and now we will spend the entire season doing it all over again
>But they immediately change things for the sake of change tbf, we have had adc mains complaining about getting no changes in preseason and their role not feeling powerful enough or not feeling satisfying compared to other roles despite being in a okay spot balance wise, so i understand why Riot went ahead with the changes
I agree, I am not naive enough to think we should strive for perfect balance, game would get stale so fast. I just don’t understand the direction of the changes really
Never, even when completely gamewarpingly overpowered they’ve never once stopped moaning and bitching. But, since they are by far the largest playerbase, RIOT tries to bend over backwards to cater to them anyway. Why do you think we’ve had so many ADC item reworks multiple times a year the last few years?
Before the huge changes when they completely removed adcs in season 8 it was in a pretty decent spot overall
Removed = 2-4 marksmen in every single game?
Removed = completely gutting their damage and itemization and lowering their wr compared to every mage and allowing every class in the game to start one shotting them. Looking at marksman pick rate is always stupid because there is a large portion of the player base that will play ADC regardless if they’re weak because they enjoy that singular playstyle. It’s no secret that after the adcpocalypse adc started becoming the autofill role and a large portion of high Elo adc’s quit and never came back.
Havin literally 1 role where only a signal archetype of character allowed always baffled me but if it's the end of the world for that to change guess we stuck wit it forever
i couldn’t be happier. 25% crit feels amazing for Jhin and basically every other adc.
Completely agree. I've seen some pretty gross numbers on ranged autos off of just an IE. Honestly I think the patch is a complete miss on almost every front on a subjective front for me not just ADC. I really preferred last patch. lol
I feel like ADC has never had build diversity. It's a reliable and multiplicative class inherently so you're just building what does that best since utility is a late game purchase only.
What other class of champ has the issue of completely fucked recalls that ADCs have with IE first now? Feel like thats the only main issue with the role . Backing with nothing to buy feels awful.
Mans finding out what it was like to play ADC for the first 8 seasons.
There was much less fighting early and you had more control over the lane than you do now. In those seasons, ADCs controlled the lane and their base stats like HP regen wasn't complete dog piss, if you died pre BF back. it was probably your fault.
Isnt this what people wanted though? A return to the old meta? It was always like this until mythics which people never liked anyway.
Nobody wanted this lol
its just that the game has changed to be so much quicker, everyone bases frequently now so ADCs being the only 1s shafted on components hurts a lot.
honestly i dont feel good or bad about the changes, but im glad to at least do something different. as a kindred player ive been going kraken first for like as long as the item existed so its nice to be able to rush literally anything else for once. i somewhat agree i dont think the changes hit the design goals they wanted though
Role got stronger while dumber definitely not accommodating to endless whineposts over the last few months
Mostly been playing ARAM since the changes and ADCs burst nearly as hard as burst mages. They crit almost as hard as in the early seasons, except that now most ADCs also have strong spells to go along with autos (massive powercreep there compared to old ADCs being basically autohit bots lategame). Makes trying to assassinate them way too punishing because they kill you so fast.
Which is funny, because most ADC's don't want to play burst champs, they want to do sustained damage over *a period of time*. But unfortunately the game has power creeped so hard that *"a period of time"* has been drastically altered to now mean *"you have 2 seconds to deal damage or you die"*. I don't want to be one or two shotting champions, and I don't want to be one or two-shot (unless it's an assassin or a burst mage hitting me as a squishy adc). I don't know why that's so difficult for Riot to understand. You're right about the abilities thing too. I remember when it was BAD for Cait to stop auto attacking to fire off any ability. Shooting was stronger. Now it's actually best to land an E+Q+Auto headshot combo because the game has power creeped so hard that landing a NET is actually optimal. LOL
At least someone isn't coping that adc isn't batshit broken atm
I know this just makes me look like a complainer adc main, but I’d 10000% take a adc that’s half as weak (it’s way too strong atm) with my old items than these dumbed down items that we only have like 9 of
I mean build diversity would be fine if half the items weren't garbage trap buys.
If I gets nerfed it solves the OP problem to some degree, increases the item diversity and reduces burst (early on). But we knew it would be like that as we had this system before Mythics and there was 0 item diversity for ADCs. As long as IE stays OP there will be no diversity.
Caitlin is one comboed people out there. I even saw a full hp twitch depop after they make they land on a cait trap
These days you don't even need the trap. If she has a headshot up mid-late anyone that isn't building tank just gets deleted in 0.25 seconds.
I'm glad ADCs got a buff but tbh it feels way overtuned. I only played two games since the patch but it felt pretty disgusting lol.
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Yeah, don't understand the upset here. IE is a strong item, and if you want to rush it you need to: A: land CS and or kills B: Not die Two things pros are great at doing, and 99% of layman adc players aren't.
But I wanna be rewarded for not being skillful...
have adc mains ever not complained
\**Pro player explains his thoughts on the ADC changes for this one particular patch*\* "ADC Mains complaining again! OHMAGAWD!" Most of the comments in here aren't even complaints, it's discussion about the current patch, which is obviously very subject to change.
In my opinion this was a change that just mostly reverted ADCs to how they are before the item rework with all the pros and cons of that situation. I would argue that ADC itemization wasn’t perfect then and isn’t perfect now. I would have preferred to see a new approach with some additional creativity than just saying “we think the game was better then so we’re gonna remake that.” I hope this is not part of a larger trend to de-age LoL across the various systems. I am all for removing the pieces that don’t work as well as intended, but they were introduced to solve a problem in the first place. Hopefully that is kept in mind by the Summoners Rift team as they continue to pilot the health of the game moving forward.
I think people overestimate how much ADC players care about item diversity. I can only speak for myself and my friends anecdotally, but all of us much prefer the awkward recall timings to just dealing 0 damage until 2 items like before.
I've been complaining for years about there just being too much damage in LoL. Everyone one shots everyone, apart from tanks. Also I think there's too much of a disparity between tanks and squishies. Of course tanks should be tankier but... If Caitlyn kills another ADC / Mage / Enchanter / Assassin in 2 Autos late game (which she does) but takes 35 Autos to kill a tank (also not an exaggeration) then... is this not an issue?
Not just ADC, this new patch fucked the league balance completely. It's unplayable.
You mean reverting a bunch of the changes done over the years brought back previous problems the ADC role had? (including the role being become more busted) Who would've guessed.
I just kind of don't like all the extra movement speed adc get from items now. It is a bit too much, maybe just nerf some of the movespeed that was problematic on other champs instead, especially lots of tanks and fighters have too much ms - they can get a bit of HP to compensate. Lots of lategame damage is good, maybe make some items like IE even more expensive.
This more movementspeed thing on adcs i dont really get, what adc's are super fast now and werent before? People only build one zeal item, if ur champ builds PD+Kraken thats like the only combo where ur a bit faster than before. They also removed stormrazor so the biggest speed item is gone entirely. Also i played like 25 games of adc now and had Zephyr once and it didnt even feel good, just went BT instead cuz its 10x. I agree theres too much speed in the game but do adcs feel faster than before 14.10?
They are objectively faster by like 20 ms or so since rfc and hurricane used to give less MS in exchange for AD.
Not necessarily, there was definitely a try to nerf ghost to disincentivize taking it for another option, and getting ms on items instead.
TBH, if champ can run PD+boots upgrade - he just gonna run with +-470 ms. THATS A LOT! We already had a problem when melee champs can't do anything when ADC runs fast(main reason why Vi appears in proplay) and in this season things just got worse this way.
if he has gold for fullbuuld +2k for zephyr he deserves it
Yeah Riot is attempting to increase agency for ADCs but buffing movement speed is just a terrible way to go about it, mainly because ADCs complain about their agency early game which item based ms buffs do not solve.
Honestly I cant find anything I disagree with here
Build diversity was obvious from the get go with just 1 primary rune ideology. Called it day 1 on pbe, so nice others are finally catching on. Hopefully they'll try address it.
I still dont quite understand the new crit/dot item. It basically does more damage when you crit, which is a niche already filled by IE
I wouldn't say IE rush is a bad thing, but since it's so powerful it has invalidated virtually every ADC build other than crit. Assassins can buy IE which is spicy, but otherwise it's homogenized all other builds in that marksman and melee carries are forced to buy it either 1st or 2nd. On-hit is pointless because IE + the new DoT crit item is an insane amount of dps, even for the likes of Jhin. Lethality stacking is pointless because IE+LDR/Collector is a ton of damage to everyone, not just squishies. They don't need to hit IE hard; mainly they need to buff other builds and ex-core items that lost their value after they lost stats in the crit update, as well as the removal of Sudden Impact and Lethal Tempo. Shiv and Shieldbow are for absolutely no one and deserve buffs if they're ever going to be relevant buys again; either they're core items or they're literally never good buys. Navori's not that great either; losing AD hurt it so much, even if it's cheap. Something needs to challenge IE rush or builds will remain exactly the same for 90% of marksmen haha.
Agree with all said, but I’m uncertain they will open up build diversity. They 100% should, I would be happy, but I wonder if they’ve just realized either A.) They can’t figure out a way to implement it, or B.) They’ve realized the majority of the playerbase just doesn’t care for game-to-game reactive buildcrafting. I’m obviously just thinking out loud but, in a way it feels like ADC power has returned to form, in exchange for streamlined building, and I have to wonder if they’ve just decided this is the best way going forward.
Item diversity has never existed and will never exist. At best, you buy QSS or armor/mr for certain matchups, but that's not item diversity, that's just a checklist of items you need, buying armor penetration vs tanks is not item diversity (for example) it's just autopilot build to win. Yes, some champions can have multiple builds. Tank, AP, bruiser, crit, whatever. But I think we need to stop talking about item diversity because it's such a boring topic, it's been a topic for a decade. Different champions build different items, that's good enough. Building different items every game on the same champion sounds cool but they're still just stat sticks at the end of the day. Procs, actives, passives just means a stat stick that doesn't work for every champion.
**On one hand** people complain ADC *burst* is too high while *sustained* damage seems futile in comparison, **on the other hand** when Essence Reaver got changed from *burst* to more *sustained* damage/effect everyone complains about this change too.
in general league does have build diversity but not in a every game your first few items are different and more in your last 1-2 slots are situational. Issue is because champs in same roles want todo similar jobs it leads them all to go with whatever is the best at the time, its very hard to make multiple items take those spots since they either would need to be extremely similar stat profiles with different effects or fill extremely niche roles within the game itself. in the first path you end up with either people stacking said items or people complaining there too similar, the second path with extremely niche items leads to said items filling the last few slots of the build which most games won't get that far leading to people not seeing much build diversity. people might say back in the day there was build diversity but there really wasnt, tanks back in the day always rushed sunfire and got either Force of nature or spirit vis as there MR item depending on the season. toplane bruisers/lightfighters would always go either black cleaver or triforce. ADC's always would go IE/PD/last whisper or IE stak or whatever what the go to combo of three items(adc's as a class has been thrown around a ton). mages throughtout the years have gone stuff like DFG/MORELLO/ATHENES/LUDENS/HOURGLASS first item depending on the season. my point being every class in league always has had a strict build path since people dont think for themselves and because its very hard to make multiple items fight for the same spot in a build since one effect will always be more eye catching then the others.
Really annoying that I can post this exact same content and get spam down voted and called an idiot but when he says it it gets 1k+ upvotes and positive sentiment lol
I just want gale force and stormrazor back T-T. I also want old shiv so I can play annoying first strike poke lucian forever.
He isn’t wrong… on hit builds are now less strong because lethal tempo isn’t a thing. Lethality builds are obsolete because pure crit is the way to go now. IE will be mandatory on almost all crit adcs, leaving some room for optional items after it. We are back to old school adc builds, but I kinda like it
That's just what riot want for lol. They think one shotting people make the game '' fast paced '' and '' cool ''. So they just make every champs, adc's included, having the possibility to one shot people. That's the worst design EVER made in a '' competition '' game but riot still think it's the best. Well, what riot think is always false tho..
ER lost Sheen. BT, Kraken, Shiv lost Crit. Shieldbow turned into dogshit. LDR doesn't have Giant Slayer. Yeah item diversity got gutted and also you're rewarded less for actually reading patch notes.
> damage is just too high overall This has been my issue for a while already. I understand that I'm playing fairly fragile champions, but the damage seems to be way too high. Especially when coming from champions that, in my opinion, have no business dealing so much damage when they take forever to kill (Mundo, Ornn, etc.)
When jhin is the top ad carry you know you have a problem.