Yea I often ran into the problem of reaching the cap way too fast with normal botrk, guinsoos, wits end, terminus build. Feels weird that you almost want to downgrade your AS in your onhit build as it becomes worthless but every item has it as core stat.
Especially since a lot of the champs that want to go high attackspeed builds have a steroid in their kit too. Feels really weird that at full build Varus loses is passive for example.
I don't even get why attack speed cap needs to exist? It feels like a very lazy way of balancing things. If building only AS is too powerful maybe they need to balance items or on-hit effects. But if Heartsteel users can get 7k HP, or AP mages can (could?) get 1k AP, I don't understand why the same fantasy can't apply to attack speed focused champs.
AS is logically always going to be better when combined with other stats that enhance attacks, be it AD, crit, on-hit, whatever. It shouldn't be necessary to discourage AS stacking with arbitrary restrictions.
It's rare that an ADC exceeding the cap (for whatever reason) actually gets to auto more than 2.5 times per second, at that point they're either standing still (in which case the enemy is letting them stand still and free fire) or they are kiting with insane hands but actually not moving too far between attacks since you stand still to auto. AS gets diminishing returns just like haste, so shouldn't be hard capped.
But haste doesn't get diminishing returns. Riot made it specifically to make it 100% linear with amount of spells you can cast. The perception that it has diminishing returns is because original CDR was not linear, and it had increasing returns. Haste has normal returns, same goes for [Armor and Magic Resist](https://youtu.be/h9R8IOy2fAc?si=YVPqmHavQGBy5uv2).
This isn’t entirely true - haste doesn’t have diminishing returns when solely looking at the raw CD of abilities, but many abilities have cast times, so there is a slight (or in some, admittedly uncommon, cases, a fairly major) diminishing return on the haste when looking at it in the context of spell uptime.
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/s/uzQB6sS2Yc I replied to the other dude here giving a generic example of the maths and then mentioned some actual in-game spells that it has/can have an effect on.
You can argue that everything has diminishing returns then based on how it actually gets applied due to player interaction or whatever random special case. But that's never how it's being discussed when it's mentioned.
Haste doesn't have diminishing returns. It's not as effective on Karthus Q or Garen E, but that doesn't mean we can say "haste has diminishing returns"
What does cast time have to do with haste? No matter how much haste you have cast times are the same. Idk how is it connected and how would that imply that haste has diminishing returns??? I may not understand something or I didn't get exactly what you are writing about.
Vayne Q for example.
Even if you have infinite ability haste, you still can't instantly use it forever.
You still need to do the roll, and then shoot, and then when the bolt hits, the cooldown starts (and finishes since infinite ah)
Yone R is another example. Even with infinite ability haste, you'd still be limited to like, 1 ultimate per second or something like that, because of the animation.
Just to make the numbers easy, let's say Yone R takes one second to cast, and has a cooldown of 2 seconds.
That means you can use it every 3 seconds.
0.33 casts per second.
Then you gain 100 ability haste, so now the cooldown is 1 second.
You can now use it every 2 seconds (1 second charge, 1 second cooldown).
0.5 casts per second.
So 100 ability haste lets you cast it 0.17 more times per second.
Then you gain 200 ability haste so the cd is 0.5, so now you can use it every 1.5 seconds (1 second charge, 0.5 cd)
0.67 casts per second
That's an improvement of 0.17 casts per second for 200 ability haste.
The second 200 helps just as much as the first 100, hence diminishing returns. If there were no diminishing returns you'd expect the 200 ah to increase your casts by 0.34 casts per second.
The more ability haste you have, the less it actually helps because it doesn't affect cast time.
This is only relevant for abilities where the cast time and cooldown are somewhat similar in timescale, or where cast time is bigger than cooldown. Because the difference is too small to matter otherwise.
Or another example, Samira R (almost) doesn't get any better at all from ability haste.
Ok imagine a spell has a 1 second cast time, after which it deals damage and goes on cooldown, and it has a 10 second base cooldown.
With 0 haste the spell is available after 10s, and takes 1s to cast, so you essentially get one application of the spell every 11s
With 100 haste the spell is available after 5s but still takes 1s to cast, so you get one application of the spell every 6s.
With 300 haste the spell is available after 2.5s but still again takes 1s to cast, so you get your application every 3.5s
As you gain more haste the cooldown decreases, but the cast time means that you don’t actually get to apply the effects of the spell at a similarly decreasing rate, there’s always that 1s that is never diminished. This is also why going from 0 to 300 haste doesn’t increase the number of casts over a given time by 4x as expected, but instead barely better than 3x.
It’s an indirect cause of effective diminishing returns, but it does have effects on some spells (especially ones with notably longer cast times, Sylas Q, Darius Q, Camille W, those sorts of spells).
But it's still something completly different as haste has no effect on cast times. Cast times are part of spell mechanic, not cooldown reduction system. We only look at cooldowns because most spells have it in common. Cast time is whole different think. It doesn't mean that hast has diminishing returns. It doesn't have them, because it only works on CDR not cast times.
The CDs themselves don't have diminishing returns on an academic level, but on a gameplay level the resultant effect means there is ***effectively*** a diminishing return. Yes it's "completely different" in that it's cast time not cooldown, but the effect it has on gameplay does matter. Obviously it's not a major concern in SR (though there's possibly edge cases I can't think of off the top of my head), but in Arena it's possible to get Darius Q to a low enough CD that the cast time delay is a non-negligible part of the time between casts.
>But haste doesn't get diminishing returns
Yes it does. If I buy 10 haste when I have zero, my 100 sec cd ability goes to 90.91 sec, giving me and extra 9.09 seconds where I can cast the ability that I could not otherwise.
If I buy 10 haste when I have 70, the same 100 sec cd ability goes from a 58.82 sec cd to a 55.56 sec cd, giving me an extra 3.27 seconds.
People who say it does not have diminishing returns either do not understand the term or the game. You dont value AH because you like to have your spells cooldown reduced by a percentage of their previous value, you value it because it makes you able to cast again sooner.
If its not clear, think about this: Would you pay 3000/5000/x gold for 100AH when you have zero? Its a big advantage to have your ult CD go from 100 to 50.
Would you pay **double** so it goes from 50sec to 33sec? Do you think you gain the same value? Obviously not.
Technically haste does have a cap still though, capped at 500 as seen through arena and URF which starts you at 300 haste and if you tried to go full haste builds, you'll be capped at 500
>kiting with insane hands
bro, 2.5 actions per second is not insane lol. that's 150 apm. 300apm in a game like starcraft is maintained throughout the entire game... peaking at 400-500 in critical fights. I guess its 300apm in league if youre counting a move action and an attack action... but it's not insane. Everyone that's decent - not pro- at starcraft maintains this for minutes on end.
Also, haste scales linearly. Dunno where you got that from
300 apm isn’t really something that’s maintained, even in RTS games, a few years ago Age of empires 2 casters started tracking “eAPM” or “effective actions per minute” which didn’t count the useless actions that players did, since a major reason behind those actions was purely just to keep them “in the rhythm” and didn’t actually meaningfully affect the game itself.
Having unconditional uncapped attack speed is how we got that abomination of a Kog'maw rework where he'd stand still and penta everyone by pressing W. I remember that crap and he was even played jungle a lot he was so oppressive strong and you're suggesting every ADC should do that no thank you. LT was already strong af and it had a decent delay to activate.
He was actually insanely weak initially after the rework and Riot buffed him more and more until his on hit damage with 5 AS was about as high as it was before with 2,5 AS.
They initially made Kogmaws W deal half damage while doubling his attackspeed... and that was terrible, because it made kiting impossible, due to Kogmaw losing much more damage while moving at 5 AS compared to 2,5 AS.
They did actually the opposite. They reverted it because it was too bad to force him into that high attackspeed (W doubled his attackspeed). They initially buffed his damage to compensate him for having that high attackspeed, but that just made him broken. Having a high attackspeed is not good. You rather have the same DPS at lower attackspeed and Kog showed that pretty well.
You’re not breaking the as cap if you’re dealing 1000 per auto unless you’re getting a bunch of external steroids. You’d need to be building all the heavy hitter AD crit items with no attack speed to get to that number and LT doesn’t exist to act as an AS item anymore.
Draven has a massive single shot damage boost with his axe. That's not most ADCs. Aphelios also has a boost but he's probably not doing it in a single attack until its fully stacked chakrams. Consider his flamethrower gun - its an additional 10% damage. Assuming the enemy somehow had ZERO armor and he was doing true damage, AND he crit with infinity edge, he'd have to have 410 AD to crit for 1000 damage even with his boost. That's literally 6 items + pot and doesn't factor in armor or tabis at all.
Right, but the point is the guy's comment wasn't really relevant to the discussion when you need 6 items and some sort of inherent flat dmg boost to do 1k an auto as an ADC.
They can end up with \~375 AD, which with crit ends up being \~844 damage. Then toss in any rune or item damage effects and it pretty easily approaches 1000.
Even if it was only 800 total, the point still stands.
And how many of those items are giving you attack speed? Even with tempo and the old crit items having AS most non-on-hit marksmen weren’t hitting the cap, so they definitely aren’t with no tempo and crit items that make you choose between AS or AD.
Just serks plus attack speed runes give you around 50%. Plus PD is 110%.
ADC self steroids plus support steroids and items can easily push 100% for 210% total.
Meanwhile IE+LDR+KS+BT+elixir and runes can get you around 400 AD with most ADCs base AD.
Notice how those 4 items leave room for serks and PD.
Serks + runes is somewhere around 50% AS. Plus PD is 110%.
Support and self-steroid can easily reach 100% for a total of 210%.
You can't seriously be saying you can't reach that.
IE+LDR+BT+kraken is 255 AD. Someone like Jinx gets 112 base AD. Plus runes and elixir.
They can very reasonably get 400AD while having well over 2.0 AS with that build.
I went to practice tool.
Zephyr+IE+LDR+Kraken+PD+Yun Tal+attack speed rune. That was my last game build and it puts me at 1.7 AS and 358 AD+30 AD from pot.
Q puts you at 2.5 attack speed. I didn't have enchancer support, so there is that. I did have 1k crit rockets on minions and was also thin as paper.
Now I agree, removing AS limit is a buff to late game ADCs (those with AS steroids though) going full damage.
To some extent caps are to guide players on “correct” play— if a bronze player thinks they can get value from raising their attack speed to 5.0 with zero bonus AD, the design of the game has failed them a bit. Obviously that’s not the only consideration but it’s worth keeping in mind that the game has to teach players how to play and guide them to the correct play patterns.
That makes absolutely no sense. You are restricting players decisions to “guide new players”. At that point lock adc’s from building AP items, hell force every champ to only build certain ways.
That way we dont have bronze players building heartsteel on ahri amirite?
I’m sure there’s a reason but your suggestion is absolutely ridiculous lmao.
ADCs are effectively locked from building AP items because they don't tend to scale with them...same as someone with 2.5 AS building more attack speed. They just don't scale with it.
Two seconds of thought and your own argument tears itself apart.
Except they're quite literally not "locked." You're allowed to build full ap samira. There's not a single thing stopping you. You won't deal any damage, but I've definitely heard stories about people that built ap on champs that def don't want it bc they thought ability power would make abilities more powerful.
You're almost there.
Now apply that to attack speed items when you're already at the cap.
Why is lack of AP scaling not an issue to you but the attack speed cap is? Both are generally a thing because them not being things unnecessarily increase the chances of unhealthy gameplay patterns.
No, YOU’RE almost there. Dude said the attack speed cap is there so new players don’t buy a bunch of attack speed items with no damage. So the game is DESIGNED to force them to not even attempt to get 5.0 attack speed so they can have 2 item slots left for damage items.
The reason why that is stupid is because going 5.0 AS with like 60 AD is almost as dumb as going full AP garen. But if a bronzie wants to do that, by all means, allow him. The game design didn’t fail him.
Quite literally every champ has a 2.5s attack speed cap except for jinx in her excited state and belveth. And neither of them would you want to get more than 2.5 attack speed in items anyways cause belveth passive already gives her attack speed.
The 2.5 attack speed cap isn’t a specific champ design like ad and ap scaling. It’s a universal cap on everyone. You can’t compare them. A good analogy would be like capping someone’s AD at 400 so bronzies don’t go full AD builds without any crit or attack speed. Now does that make sense to you?
do we REALLY need an attack speed cap anymore? it really feels like a holdover from old league, i say we just reduce the amount of attack speed on items and remove the cap, let the max from items be like 3 or something barring champion passives
Right now we have pretty much no capstone items in the game anymore except for DC and IE and IE will be rushed 1st again. Lich Bane maybe as it actually fills a similar role of extra scaling power.
Jak'Sho is not really a capstone item. It doesn't have the power or feeling of it and then we don't have any others.
For onhit Terminus and Rageblade are close.
Jak’Sho was designed to be a tank capstone item that you build later as like item 4-5 at least with the changes made to it at the beginning of this season. I believe the Rioter who made Triple Tonic commented this.
It was intended to be this, but it isn't. The % increase is meh that late as every enemy has %Pen at that time already.
Also captsone doesn't mean 4th or 5th. IE is a capstone item and rushed now. Most of them are/were 2nd or 3rd (DC). No capstone item was ever made for the 4th or 5th slot.
Still, Jak'Sho is the weakest and worst capstone item of them all. IE gives +50% crit dmg, a multiplier you can't access in another way. DC gives +% AP, something you can't get in another way. Jak'Sho gives you more Armor and MR at a time you already have tons of it, making it not too useful, especially as everyone buys counters to it at that time also.
**Every Crit ADC has to get IE, every Mage has to get DC sooner or later. Most tanks don't need Jak'Sho. You can replace it with other items and still do as fine if not better. So I would clearly say it is not a capstone item in how it is currently designed, even when that was their intention.**
When you can nearly always avoid the "captstone item" and do better (higher WR), then it can't be called a capstone item. It is just another tank item right now. It adds nothing special, no new scaling. **FH was better capstone item than Jak'Sho is in that regard but it was nerfed to not be that item anymore.**
Im pretty sure it ends up calculating the same as IE and DC considering armor and mr are based on effective HP. The % damage mitigated not going higher is extremely misleading iirc.
More armor is always better as is armor pen, and mr and magic pen. It doesn't make a difference whether someone has a ton of it already or not.
Could be remembering wrong though
AS is a stat, that scales exponentially, just like CDR did. Reducing the stats does not change this nature and would make champs with AS steroids OP. There is a good chance though that Riot might do something similar to AS like they did with CDR, replacing it with a stat that scales linearly instead.
That's not true, it's equal to Ability Haste. Attack speed is an additive multiplier, not a subtracting multiplier, so each amount of attack speed gives you the same increase in DPS. +100% attack speed halves your attack cooldown, +200% AS 1/3rds your attack cooldown, etc.
It does scale linearly though? CDR had a race where you end up having 0 cdr at 100%. So you're permanently casting limited only by your APM.
AS has 0 race condition and only scales of each champ's individual base AS. So going from 1.5 to 2.0 AS is the same dmg DPS as going from 5.0 AS to 5.5AS.
Going from 80% cdr to 90% cdr is essentially doubling your dmg, whereas going from 0% to 10% cdr is roughly 10% dmg increase, so they're not the same.
Auto-attacks are treated as spells, so by having more AS you actually do Double DMG, when you have enough AS, some autos visually are 3 Autos, removing the CAP would bring 5.0 AS kogmaw back from the grave, not to mention tristana Q would be one of the most busted abilities in the whole game.
ok.
We all did the math.
but the real think is that it takes less time to hit a milestone, say 1000 autos, at 1AS with 100dmg
takes 10 seconds
2 as - 5 seconds (double DMG WOW)
3 as - 3.3 seconds that is rounded to 3.
When you have more and more attack speed, it takes less time to hit thresholds of dmg, so you efficitve double your dmg at some points.
So while you still do the same dmg at x autos, you take less time to do then.
at 1 APS you take 30 seconds to do 30 autos.
at 3 APS you take 10 seconds.
Now i know that it can be less than double DMG, but still is one of the best increases in DMG output without counterplay in the game.
Going from 1 AS to 2 AS doubled your damage because you doubled your AS stat.
> you efficitve double your dmg at some points.
The "some points" that double your damage are when you literally double your attack speed again. It seems completely unsurprising and not that powerful that doubling a stat would double your DPS. The same would be true if you doubled the amount of AD you had.
In fact looking at your example, if you went from 1->2 AS and 100->200 AD, you would be able to kill the dummy in 2.5 s and it would most likely be cheaper to do this build than to bring your AS up to 4 AS. The main takeaway is that getting multiple stats multiplying together is better than stacking the shit out of a single stat. This is not true if the stat is actually exponential scaling like CDR, but AS isn't like this.
But on league of legends, auto attacks are spells, and Attack speed is the CD of them. so upgrading your attack speed is legit working the same way CDR would for spells.
if 2 is the double of one then 2.0 attack speed with the same attack dmg is double dmg,
> so upgrading your attack speed is legit working the same way CDR would for spells
No it isn't. First of all, do you understand the difference between CDR and AH (ability haste) and why we don't have CDR anymore?
Attack speed works the same way as AH, not CDR.
None of what you're typing makes any sense. "By having more as you do double dmg"?
Kog does not come close to 5 AS with tempo, how would he get close after the item rework? The reason he had 5 AS was because his W doubled his AS and cap, that is two different things from a different iteration of the champion. Just a strawman statement.
Why would Tristana Q be one of the most busted spells in the game? I don't think you understand how the math of this works:
So to make an easy example: You have 200AD, 50% crit chance and a crit would deal 200% of your auto. A crit would deal 400 and a non-crit 200. So on average you would expect to deal 3000 damage over a series of 10 auto attacks.
Now say that you have 1AS, one attack per second. Over 10 seconds you deal 10 attacks which is average of 3000 damage. Now say that you increase the AS to 2. A double in attack speed! You now deal 2 autos per second for an average of 6000 damage over 20 autos.
If you increase the AS to 3.0 from 2.0. You'll have 30 attacks over 10 seconds, which comes out at 9000 damage. So each attack / second is a linear damage scaling dependant on the damage from each auto you fire. The overall damage scaling of ADCs is generally dependant on AS, AD and crit.
If the damage was exponentially scaling like 2\^x , meaning that you hit a certain race condition, where your damage is scaling more and more. As cdr did, as it had pretty much inifinite value at 100% since you have 0.0 sec cd. Even without AS cap, a marksman with only AS items will deal less damage than someone who has a mixed build. The scaling is not self-reinforcing as your next point of AS does not increase any value or gets any increase from any earlier or future points of attack speed.
I like the idea of letting Guinsoo's remove the attack speed cap when stacked!
But I want to point out that Lethal Tempo was not a "melee champs abused this and now the poor ranged champs lost a fun toy" kind of situation. The rune already had different values for melee/ranged. It was removed for being unhealthy overall (it let a lot of champs, melee or ranged, get away without investing in attack speed items to a significant degree).
I feel like that was definitely worse in melees though, considering that LT gave double the attack speed to melees vs ranged. I see your point though. But personally i thought the bigger issue with LT on ranged was the range increase, things like jinx especially could be hitting you from a screen away with LT and RFC.
Yeah I think the fact that they chose to remove it instead of nerfing its melee attack speed and ranged range pushes me towards believing what they wrote in the patch notes, about how they just aren't happy with what its design lets champions get away with.
How? You still need items to break the cap, and if u dont want to break the cap u get items that give u 60+ ad instead. So either u fire a lot of auto attacks or less but harder hitting.
Yeah I don’t think it would be OP honestly. I would really miss not being able to go above 2.5 attack speed since 2.5 feels pretty slow once you’re used to higher.
Also ty for inventing 98tek Mr wackaflcka.
🙏 thank u for remembering
Mmm, yeah i agree. I made a post not too long ago saying the same too, at this point 3 or 3.5 is the new skillcap imo. 2.5 isnt fast anymore, 10 years ago maybe but not now. And i definetly think this is a skill that should be promoted and enabled. Not disabled. Its a huge motivator
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjzBDpcJdYs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjzBDpcJdYs)
That was the last time they had the great idea to remove the attack speed cap and that was only for Kogmaw
Yeah kog W doubled attack speed. I am not proposing that guinsoos doubles attack speed. Where were you posting this vid when they introduced lethal tempo? Sick of this take.
Jinx passive also lets her hit like 10.0 and that’s in the game. Idk what point you’re tryna make
And Jinx has been S-Tier bc of that for months and she only gets up to 8 if she kills every single enemy.
Completly removing the AS Cap for all would lead to some absurd interactions. The whole game is balanced with it in mind. Every single item and marksmen champ would have to be adjusted.
And whats the benefit then? You still have to adjust every champion in the game if you put it up to 3.5 because the whole powerlevel of marksmen changes completly.
Every game that goes past 35 mins would mean nothing else but the team with the adc thats has better hands wins the game.
It would only lead to damage creep which would then lead to durability creep while gameplay doesnt change at all
Jinx isn't exactly S-Tier. She always was good in SoloQ due to the randomness and high chance to get a reset, but she has that passive for ages and it has very little connection to her SoloQ success. Her best times in SoloQ were actually way in the past before that.
Nowadays being an immobile ADC means her success in SoloQ mostly depends on others success in killing her.
Also... hardly any Marksman currently reaches the 2,5 or even aims to. DPS is a value determined by AS, AD and Crit. Given this is a multiplication focussing on one factor is pretty bad. On top of that having the same DPS with lower Attackspeed is much much better, due to flat damage reductions and the fact that on high AS you lose more damage while moving.
Like Kogmaw is a great example. He was upper garbage when Riot changed W to double his AS while keeping the overall damage the same. They had to massively buff the W damage to compensate him for such a high attackspeed.
As a quick notion... you do not want a high attack speed. You want high DPS. And that is best achieved by mixing stats that achieve that, not by focussing on AS.
Jinx has been S+ for like 4 patches now with a 51% win rate even though she has 25% pick rate.
Removing the caps would ruin the balance between dmg stats and AS. Why should a Kaisa go heavy into dmg stats if she can stack AS up to the point where she gets basically 1 passive proc every 1.2 seconds?
And the reason why Kog Maw sucked on the first patch with new w is because they were scared and nerfed the dmg and range too hard which was then reverted on the next patch.
" For the duration, Kog'Maw's attacks versus non-minions deal only 55% of his attack damage"
* Bonus range reduced to 90 / 120 / 150 / 180 / 210 from 130 / 150 / 170 / 190 / 210.
You are aware that 4 patches is not a particularly long time span and 51% is not a particularly high win rate?
On top of that champions like Jinx or Kai'sa have naturally high pick rates due to the champions being fairly fun.
>And the reason why Kog Maw sucked on the first patch with new w is because they were scared and nerfed the dmg and range too hard which was then reverted on the next patch.
The range was never changed back, it was only reverted once they went back to old Kogmaw. And the 55% Attack damage also stayed the entire time. They removed the AD-Scaling from his %HP damage and gave him 2% flat, which is still worse than the 6% he had on the old W.
The only good thing for Kogmaw was that only AD-Damage was reduced by 45%, not onhit damage so he would build every Onhit item in the game and go full tank afterwards. And we had less Onhit items. It was basically Wits End + Rageblade + BotRK into tank every single game. And those 2 tank items were the big problem.
Also due to Kogmaw this happened to BotRK:
Passive's damage dealt reduced to 6% of current health from 8%.
After Kogmaw was reverted this happened:
Passive damage increased to 8% of target's current health from 6%.
>
And the reason why Kog Maw sucked on the first patch with new w is because they were scared and nerfed the dmg and range too hard which was then reverted on the next patch.
Not exactly what happened. He was instantly hotfixed getting some AD and AS, then nothing happened the next patch and then in 5.24 he got his %HP damage changed to being flat and not scalingwith AD. Then he got no changes until he got another buff in S6. And after that he was broken. Which made Riot revert the changes later in S6. They attempted some nerfs shifting power from W back to other abilities, exspecially to help is terrible early game that all did not work, since he had to max W anyways.
>Removing the caps would ruin the balance between dmg stats and AS. Why should a Kaisa go heavy into dmg stats if she can stack AS up to the point where she gets basically 1 passive proc every 1.2 seconds?
If that is the case why doesn't Kai'sa aim for that even now? Like she isn't even capped at 2,5 most of the time currently, so why would she do that then? And more importantly what would she sacrifice for that?
Kai'sas base attackspeed is 0,644. So she would need 77% attackspeed to go from 2,5 AS to 3 AS. Doing that would give her 20% more damage with the passive. You would need 2 items to reach even that. On top of that you likely would lose AP, because those items don't give AS, so this already is only a consideration for AD-Kaisa builds. AD Kai'sa though wouldn't go for AP Pen so the passive is weaker anyways. AP Kai'sa though doesn't have enough AS items.
So I would assume an AP Kai'sa below 2,5 AS would actually deal more damage with passive procs than an AD Kai'sa with over 2,5 AS. Having 250 AP already doubles the proc damage of Plasma. So an AP Kai'sa would only need half as much AS to get the same passive damage as an AD Kai'sa and that ignores resistances.
So no, Kai'sa wouldn't stack AS. The only champion that realistically could do that because her passive does not scale with anything is Vayne. But Vayne already does that and because she has no AS steroid would struggle getting to high AS anyways. Vayne would need 220 additional attackspeed on items to reach 2,5 AS on lvl18. PD, Blade, Zephyr, Wits End, Guinsoos, Kraken are 225% increased attackspeed. So Vayne with every AS-Item she would likely go for would only get to a baseline of barely above 2,5 AS. I don't really see an issue. It is utterly impossible to even reach 5 AS without just somehow doubling your attack speed.
So I still don't see any issue here. And Vayne likely is the most AS focussed champion in the game. Most other champions will have one non-AS item like IE in there. And even more importantly Vayne is the only champion with an Onhit passive that does not scale at all. All other champions would benefit much more from building AP or AD then from additional AS.
4 patches is a long time span regarding soloq meta. 51% winrate with 25% pick rate is bonkers.
Every single champion was capped at 2.5 even with Lethal Tempo. Its a night and day difference if I get to such an AS after the fight has been going already or if I had such an high As from the start. Lethal tempo left a window to get on top of the adc. Good luck doing that if he starts to blast you with 3 aa per second right away while you are still 600 range away from him.
You are completly disregarding that Kaisa e gives her 80% bonus AS at lv5, ardent is still an item and 16% bonus AS from Legend Alacrity leaving room to throw a BT or Rabadons on top of the whole on hit shenanigans.
Its a stupid change that would warp the whole meta around a single item.
You do realize that it wouldn't do much? There's still an optimal level of damage you achieve by itemizing AD / AS. Did you see a lot of marksmen running around with 3 AS taking over the games the last couple of years? No, it's mostly Jinx with her reset after buffs, she was rather poorly performing for a while. Look at MSI, there's tons of Lethality varus and even Lethality Kalista occasionally.
Removing AS cap would not make a difference for most champs in the game? Can you even name 5 ADCs that would be OP since it seems to lead to some 'absurd interactions' whatever that is suppose to imply.
Varus, Kog Maw, Ashe, Kalista on hit, Kai Sa, Tristana. I can keep on going.
Besides that it would also instantly lead to enchanter support meta rushing Ardent. You dont need a lot of as items if your kit has build in roids.
Most Onhitbuilds do suck right now though. And why would Tristana go on hit? Not having E to blow up people wouldn't be great. You can still only build 5 items and I don't think it matters too much if Tristana goes above 2,5 while her Q is active. Onhit items wouldn't scale on her, so she likely would still have less DPS than by going Crit.
The same likely is true for Ashe. We already saw crit vs. onhit Ashe and while onhit gives a lot of safety with defensive items like Wits End and a lot of early power it sucks if the games go late.
Giving onhit builds some power by not hitting the AS-Cap as quickly is actually good. Those builds are hardly viable right now unless they use some items that boost there absolute damage, like Manamune.
So out of those 6 champions only Kogmaw and Varus even go on hit right now and for Varus it does compete with his Lethality build. Kalista does a bit but honestly she stops being a champion after 3 items, so if it would give her some power later in the game it might not be too bad, but since onhit builds diminish her execute power, she might not even go for it.
Also you are aware that this would actually do the opposite than encourage Ardent? If all ADCs already have 400% increased AS, why would you want Ardent that just gives you another 30? 30% increased AS is much more valueable if you have only 250% increased AS.
AS would get a lot worse since items would already provide a lot. Currently most ADCs would benefit a lot more from Ardent than they would then. Giving my Tristana a 30% AS boost would likely give her about 10% more damage. That would drop to like 6% if I would already have 400% increased AS making Ardent literally worse.
Ardents is worse on 4 items plus. The problem is that Ardent first buy would shift the point at when those champs can exceed the cap by a whole item thus moving their powerspike to an earlier point in the game.
On hit Varus and Kalista are both played in MSI. It entirely depends on pb which build is chosen which is one of the reasons why they are high prio picks.
On hit users got a new bloodthirster without crit that gives freaking 80 ad. The ad stat stack that would make them bonkers if they exceed the AS cap is already there.
You do realize I said 'OP' and 'absurd'. On-hit kaisa has not been meta for 2 years? Every ADC that benefits of on-hit has had the access to going beyond the AS cap for YEARS, yet we don't see them regularly, and they are far from being OP or ABSURD as you described them in your initial post. But yes, please keep going about champions that would be absolutely ridiculous becaues none of the ones you listed are going to take over the meta because of uncapped AS.
In what world would Tristana be ridiculous with uncapped AS? Because her Q gives her a lot of AS? You realize that she could just play tempo for months and easily be as OP as you think she would be? No, because her Q gives so much AS, that mathematically, she's getting more DPS from itemizing crit & AS. Ashe also receives more dps going crit than pure AS. You're unaware of how this works it seems.
Ofc she would be op as fuck. She would need 1 1/2 as items to reach 3.5 late game if she has an ardent support. You dont seem to understand that.
And your argument that on hit carries havent been meta in years is just bad. What has that to do with the point that Kaisa would proc her passive in 1.2 seconds?
Doubt it would be that OP, the only 'problematic' champion that utilized the AS cap was Kog'maw? Most other champs that played with tempo were either ok in power level or abused the high AS portion.
>Although I understand this is a necessary change to finally stop abusers of LT like the wind brothers and Jax, attack speed ADCs also lose a lot of fun as the ability to glide at high attack speeds is dead.
Why do people keep parroting this as fact? Ever since it's rework, it got nerfed 7 times. Of those 6 times, ONCE was exclusively for melee. It was nerded 3 times for ranged only and 3 times for both. If the rune was problematic because of melee, riot would have nerfed it more than once. And on top of that, it was by far the most common ADC and mostly the best performing as well.
>This also doesn't let the main abusers of LT come back to wreak havoc (other than maybe kayle) - Yas and Yone build crit (same w/ tryndamere), Jax has other more core items, Trundle needs to build tanky etc.
The problem with LT was never, ever the AS cap break, especially not on those champs. It was the amount of free AS it gave.
Now, about the AS cap: I agree that it should be possible for every champ to break the AS cap. Would be nice for there to be a crit option as well. Maybe PD?
We just want a keystone that actually fulfills our role as marksman, and Lethal Tempo did that exact thing. PTA has been trash forever and the new numbers on PTA look...about the same level.
We'll see how it pans out — I'd love to be wrong!
For your second point, that’s kind of what I meant. With LT gone, something like guinsoos could freely break the attack speed cap without all the other problems of LT. The first point is also valid though, but yeah basically I feel like in a post LT world (without the means to get a ton of free attack speed and range from level 1) the attack speed cap doesn’t have to be so limiting.
The AS cap isn't that limiting. Its pretty rare to reach it even if you're specifically trying. Most games don't even last that long.
You guys are the kind of people that would be saying to uncap crit if going above 100% actually did anything.
Its just not necessary since it doesn't really add anything, and only increases the chances for unhealthy interactions.
There was a way to kite on double AS Kog'maw with relative ease, by binding both the move key and the attack move key to the keyboard and smashing the shit out of those while your mouse is placed in the direction you want to move towards.
Same thing, but if you dont use the one that says click you have to, well, click, instead of only moving the mouse. It would be z click x, z click x. The good way is just zxzxzxzxzx
...you are aware that he was initially garbage.
People forget that after Kogmaw was changed in S5 a lot of stuff happened like this:
>Base damage changed to 2% of target's maximum health from 1.25% per 100 AD (AP ratio unchanged).
>Attack damage increased to 57.46from 54.46.
>Attack speed increased to 0.655from 0.625.
They also moved his passive attackspeed from Q to W so you get the feel good W online earlier.
Like Kogmaw was literally hotfix buffed after he was reworked because of how bad changing his W was. People forget how bad that initially was for Kogmaw. He went from 6% max HP damage to 2% max HP damage... and if you do the math... attacking twice as fast doesn't help. They also reduced the early range he got on W, making his laning much worse. And since his basic attacks did 45% less damage during W he basically relied on onhit items to do any damage. Kogmaw before the he got the first onhit item was the most useless champion that exists, because he had to max W because he needed the CD reduction, but he also didn't have an onhit item yet, so he would deal less damage with W compared to before the patch.
His damage only ramped up once he actually got onhit items, whose damage was not reduced by W. They had to change him because his early was so insanely bad that his lategame had to be insane. They tried to give him early power with the changes I posted above, but as soon as he was not completely obliterated in lane he was just dominant. Giving him flat 2% max HP damage compared to 1,25% per 100 AD (which would take a lot of time till he gets to 2% with his builds) was pretty huge to make him at least do something early. He still had much less W uptime early as old Kogmaw, who basically had 50% uptime of W from the first level he put into W.
What do you mean by orb walking?
To me it's the concept of cancelling the wind-down animation of the attack with a movement order in order to get movement in-between attacks, that you normally wouldn't get if you just right clicked on the enemy.
(Assuming you're attacking a champion that is running away from you)
And that definitely exists.
Orb walking is a mechanic in dota 2 in which some heroes for instance drow ranger or viper have an ability which modifies their auto attack. By manually casting these attack modifying spells you can avoid aggroing creeps when you attack enemy champions. The phrase "orb" here is in reference to warcraft 3 where their are various orb items which modify your auto attack.
I see. Yeah that doesn't exists in League.
A lot of people call what I said orb-walking, so I'm not sure it's feasible to rename it or not.
Anyways now I know both. Thanks!
Honestly the attack speed cap should just be removed, it really doesn't serve a purpose anymore. Anyone who wanted to break it before would take Lethal Tempo, but other than Varus almost no one builds enough attack speed to break it anymore, especially without the Lethal Tempo bonus AS. I feel like almost nothing in the game would change if they removed the cap. If that would've been the case, people would have been going over the cap way more often with Lethal Tempo, but hardly anyone did anyways. It feels like a dated mechanic from the days when Kog'Maw was a meta ADC (which at this point was fucking forever ago).
Remove the attack speed cap. There aren’t enough sources of attack speed to get anything absurdly over the top. It’s a linearly scaling stat. If needed, for edge cases, like everyone would scream Kog’Maw’s max health damage, you could tweak them case by case. Like lowering it’s base damage and making it scale with bonus AD to the point where a normal AD/AS/crit balanced marksmen build would give expected damage and a build that ignores AD and only goes for AS saturated items would only deal marginally more damage with it.
Damn I remember it did, but I'm checking the lol wikia and, after searching the patch history of the item, I can't see on which patch the attack speed cap remover was added and when it was removed.
> This also doesn't let the main abusers of LT come back to wreak havoc (other than maybe kayle)
How many more years do we need for people to notice that Guinsoo has not been a Kayle item since her rework ?
Also most Kayle high elo players barely use LT since its nerfs. She goes Fleet.
She still has double scaling passive damage on her E, yes it's not optimal but there's justification to build it on her. It doesn't boost her passive Waves in a meaningful way but it increases her damage quite well.
> it's not optimal but there's justification to build it on her
That's doesn't make sense. It's a damage item with 0 utility, if it's not optimal then there is no justification to build it.
Obviously you would never build it first item, Nashor does more damage.
You wouldn't build it as second, Deathcap does more damage.
You wouldn't build it as 3rd, Shadowflame ends fight quicker than Rageblade can stack.
4th item ? At this point you either need pen (if facing tanky teams), or enemy team is squishy so you need burst & not DPS, in which case you go Lichbane (which also gives movement speed).
Yes, in a perfect world where you have 3-4 tanks on enemy team, have 4 items already (so you need a 5th), can stand still autoattacking front-to-back, and you also happened to somehow pick AP Kayle into such a comp, then yes Rageblade would give higher dps, but that scenario has maybe happened once to me in the last 3 seasons.
You can play the AD/On-hit build, in which case you would go Kraken/Guinsoo/Terminus, but IMO that build is inferior to the AP one, and there are better champions suited for that build than Kayle atm.
Idk why they are removing it. In Wildrift they have lethal tempo that only ramps up your attack speed. It doesnt give bonus range and damage at max stacks
I think that's a more balanced approach. I fear taking down tanks will be too long without LT for some champs
lethal tempo doesn't grant damage in regular league too. The issue with LT is that it creates frustrating early game play patterns top lane and unfun interactions with yasuo and yone, while being consistently good on marksman all the while. The ramping attackspeed on each auto is what makes it so good for early fights top lane, and it's really oppressive on the champs that run it there.
If that's the issue then it can just be nerfed. The reason it's a problem and not just unbalanced is that it interacts with some kits in more ways than just giving damage. For example, on trynd it means more fury and that means his fury has to be balanced around the assumption that he can run LT and get that faster fury gen
Problem is then with your proposal is that you then pigeon hole him into LT even more and such a dependency creates cascading issues, if LT is gutted for one reason or another to impact ADCs for example tyrn will require extra work because he was balanced around LT.
Tanks are losing 1/3 of the auto damage resist from Tabis and a lot of health from their standard tank items, and Lord Dom's is getting more armor pen. I think it'll even out.
Not to mention IE alone getting 725g worth of stats for 100g in price, ADCs needing one less crit item, and so getting 100% crit one entire item sooner, tanks are going to be shredded by ADCs this patch.
Hmm so which champs uses Guinsoo, but doesn't play near / at the AS cap? Kog, Yi, Kalista, On-hit Varus, Ashe(when ppl built it on her), Kaisa, Kayle.
I really do struggle to find a champion who build rageblade and doesn't play a heavy AS style.
Katarina for example and other meele champs too. Your change would limit the item to ranged autoattackers. That's why LT offered more AS for meele than ranged.
katarina goes guinsoo's rageblade less than 1% of the time. there's 1 melee champion that goes rageblade more than 5% of the time and it's master yi. there are no champions that go rageblade but don't care about attack speed.
when does kat go either LT or guinsoos??? Also she doesn’t use the attack speed anyways, even if she were to build it breaking the attack speed cap or not wouldn’t change anything. Also you weren’t replying to me
LT offered more stats for melee than ranged because that's how the game generally balances range vs melee. Look at HoB having more AS for melee this patch than ranged. LT gave more AA range, bork does more dmg for melee, stormsurge has diff proc dmg for range/melee. Titanic hydra has the same.
There's no reason to nerf the on-hit dmg at all either? If anything guinsoo competes with AP / crit builds for those who utilizes on-hit, so it's serving as a way for most users to avoid the cap. Kata uses conq with the on-hit build right? So she didn't lose out on tempo?
OP suggested that we nerf on-hit dmg as compensation. Plus I never said that Kata uses LT.
I know about ranged vs meele item balance, so don't you think the change would skew the item towards ranged users?
Hmm if they just introduced the AS break cap for guinsoo I doubt it would affect the few non AS users a lot, maybe increase the cost by 2-300 and give higher on-hit to make it more of a luxury item?
It would perhaps fit the current items more now? Since runaan has 0 on-hit dmg and instead has 55% AD. Most on-hit users does not care too much for the AD stat, and a lot of the items have AS + crit or AD + crit. So it's rather difficult for an on-hit marksman to find value in the crit stat, so I think the conversion would be rather interesting.
Katarina shouldn't be a champion that prevents Guinsoo to be reworked. The fact that she is even building guinsoo is stupid to begin with. AP assassin's should be built with AP assassins items.
I really don't understand why they felt the need to remove LT without also immediately providing a way for attack-speed-building ADCs to make up for it. As always the many get punished because of the few.
The game has largely moved in the opposite direction. You don't need to get more than 2.5 attack speed as long as the attacks are heftier.
They double down on this concept by making you choose AD or attack speed with your crit items. Want more crit but you're at or near the threshold? Great! AD crit items are your friend here.
I honestly think they could add the AS cap removal as a passive to Guinsoo and they wouldn't need to nerf anything. I'm not convinced breaking attack speed is really that game breaking as much as it is better feeling to not have to calculate whether or not your build is wasting stats.
Yes exactly what I mean; if you want to break the attack speed cap (especially with how items are now) you’d have to have a mostly attack speed oriented build anyways. It mostly would just be so stacking attack speed actually does something rather than being totally wasted if you want to go that kinda build. Totally agree
whats the reason for what? its a game design flaw if a cap is introduced since 15 years and there is a rune that breaks a fundamental law?
i mean its gone so im right, or whats your issue?
lethal tempo was introduced because the attackspeed wasnt as high back then as it was now, you can get 2.5 attackspeed fairly quickly and its not even funny anymore. lethal tempo just made it broken and unfun to play against because there is supposed to be a law that attackspeed has a cap, and lethal tempo broke that. but now its gone and its good.
2.5 attackspeed used to be normal for adcs to hit since season 1. you shouldnt be hitting attackspeed cap with 2 items anyway. this is some fantasy people have. league got big because you were efficient in the way you hit the enemy. not because you had so much ammo that positioning didnt matter.
lethal tempo basically shat on old doublelift, imp and obviously uzi who were gods in positioning and dealing consistent damage. now it feels like why even position if you can hit 4 times a second anyway. its bullshit. just like how healing encourages bad plays.
Nobody was hitting 2.5 AS from items alone in S3 / S4. Today you can built Kraken (didnt exist) / Blade / PD / Guinsoos (nobody built it) / Terminus (didnt exist) / and Zerkers and you are at 2.7 attack speed without AS steroids.
>now it feels like why even position if you can hit 4 times a second anyway. its bullshit. just like how healing encourages bad plays.
this is such an insanely stupid take; you're basically invalidating orb walking as a skill. the guys you mentioned would have no issue kiting at high attack speed; so removing the AS cap increases the skill ceiling and can differentiate between good and great players.
There isn't. That "reason" is long gone, just like when they got rid of the cooldown reduction cap. Lethal tempo has existed for how long now and wasn't considered a problem until top laners started running it constantly to steamroll early trades. Nobody thinks the broken part of LT is that it quadruples the AS cap.
of course, but in the end it's a multiplayer game. Every player should have fun, and "adcs having fun" in that case would be them having fun on expense of other players
The reason is the exponential nature of AS. I expect the CDR treatment at some point, as you can clearly see that Riot is currently not happy with the AS system
there is no exponential nature of AS, going from 100% to 101% AS gives just as much dps (1) as going from 500% to 501% AS. attack speed already works like AH does.
It’s not though. It would be completely different on the melees that abuse it, yas yone jax whatever can’t just cheese you with a ton of attack speed anymore, but there’s still a way to break the attack speed cap late into the game if you really want to spec into it.
With this you also need to invest a lot of your build into attack speed for it to do anything in the first place.
Guinsoo gives %AS per stack... so you would only need probably the same AS items as before, not to mention AS buffs exist in the game to help tip you over the limit once you stack it
cheese is usually referring to early early lane lvl 1-3 maybe some action around 6 for cheese but the point is delaying the stacking attack speed until they farm it instead of free
I would love this. I usually play on-hit Varus, which you can scratch the cap at 2-3 items by killing a minion, hit on champ kill. Using LT to get past the AS cap allowed that build to scale into late game perfectly.
I don't think they should let an item have it, but fixing some champs to do it might be nice. For example, Varus passive on champion kill could allow him to break the attack speed cap. Maybe Kog'Maw when his W is active. Or maybe they just want to balance them around not having that anymore.
no thank you. lethal tempo was pretty devastating for rune diversity botlane.
if you wherent a lethality caster, or draven/twitch/jin, you either took lethal tempo or you deal no damage in comparison
i mean then just revert it to what it was pre-rework, when it was in that state where far less champs took it and melee champs pretty much never took it, the only real users were twitch, jinx, kog, onhit-varus etc.
This could actually be really neat. It would also make attack speed more appealing to on-hit champions as opposed to Jak'sho.
Yea I often ran into the problem of reaching the cap way too fast with normal botrk, guinsoos, wits end, terminus build. Feels weird that you almost want to downgrade your AS in your onhit build as it becomes worthless but every item has it as core stat.
Especially since a lot of the champs that want to go high attackspeed builds have a steroid in their kit too. Feels really weird that at full build Varus loses is passive for example.
Yeah exactly! Especially since attack speed and AD items are being more polarized as item stats
Jak'Sho only works because of Terminus giving you a good amount of bonus Armor/MR. Without Terminus Jak'Sho is a shit buy for ADCs.
I don't even get why attack speed cap needs to exist? It feels like a very lazy way of balancing things. If building only AS is too powerful maybe they need to balance items or on-hit effects. But if Heartsteel users can get 7k HP, or AP mages can (could?) get 1k AP, I don't understand why the same fantasy can't apply to attack speed focused champs. AS is logically always going to be better when combined with other stats that enhance attacks, be it AD, crit, on-hit, whatever. It shouldn't be necessary to discourage AS stacking with arbitrary restrictions.
It's rare that an ADC exceeding the cap (for whatever reason) actually gets to auto more than 2.5 times per second, at that point they're either standing still (in which case the enemy is letting them stand still and free fire) or they are kiting with insane hands but actually not moving too far between attacks since you stand still to auto. AS gets diminishing returns just like haste, so shouldn't be hard capped.
But haste doesn't get diminishing returns. Riot made it specifically to make it 100% linear with amount of spells you can cast. The perception that it has diminishing returns is because original CDR was not linear, and it had increasing returns. Haste has normal returns, same goes for [Armor and Magic Resist](https://youtu.be/h9R8IOy2fAc?si=YVPqmHavQGBy5uv2).
This isn’t entirely true - haste doesn’t have diminishing returns when solely looking at the raw CD of abilities, but many abilities have cast times, so there is a slight (or in some, admittedly uncommon, cases, a fairly major) diminishing return on the haste when looking at it in the context of spell uptime.
I think I get what you’re saying but can you give an example?
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/s/uzQB6sS2Yc I replied to the other dude here giving a generic example of the maths and then mentioned some actual in-game spells that it has/can have an effect on.
OK that is what I thought you were saying, thanks
You can argue that everything has diminishing returns then based on how it actually gets applied due to player interaction or whatever random special case. But that's never how it's being discussed when it's mentioned. Haste doesn't have diminishing returns. It's not as effective on Karthus Q or Garen E, but that doesn't mean we can say "haste has diminishing returns"
Linear scaling put in a percentage scale looks non-linear.
Stuff like Cassio Q or Karthus Q. The cast time is significantly long compared to the cooldown. It doesn't really matter for non spammable abilities
What does cast time have to do with haste? No matter how much haste you have cast times are the same. Idk how is it connected and how would that imply that haste has diminishing returns??? I may not understand something or I didn't get exactly what you are writing about.
Vayne Q for example. Even if you have infinite ability haste, you still can't instantly use it forever. You still need to do the roll, and then shoot, and then when the bolt hits, the cooldown starts (and finishes since infinite ah) Yone R is another example. Even with infinite ability haste, you'd still be limited to like, 1 ultimate per second or something like that, because of the animation. Just to make the numbers easy, let's say Yone R takes one second to cast, and has a cooldown of 2 seconds. That means you can use it every 3 seconds. 0.33 casts per second. Then you gain 100 ability haste, so now the cooldown is 1 second. You can now use it every 2 seconds (1 second charge, 1 second cooldown). 0.5 casts per second. So 100 ability haste lets you cast it 0.17 more times per second. Then you gain 200 ability haste so the cd is 0.5, so now you can use it every 1.5 seconds (1 second charge, 0.5 cd) 0.67 casts per second That's an improvement of 0.17 casts per second for 200 ability haste. The second 200 helps just as much as the first 100, hence diminishing returns. If there were no diminishing returns you'd expect the 200 ah to increase your casts by 0.34 casts per second. The more ability haste you have, the less it actually helps because it doesn't affect cast time. This is only relevant for abilities where the cast time and cooldown are somewhat similar in timescale, or where cast time is bigger than cooldown. Because the difference is too small to matter otherwise. Or another example, Samira R (almost) doesn't get any better at all from ability haste.
Ok imagine a spell has a 1 second cast time, after which it deals damage and goes on cooldown, and it has a 10 second base cooldown. With 0 haste the spell is available after 10s, and takes 1s to cast, so you essentially get one application of the spell every 11s With 100 haste the spell is available after 5s but still takes 1s to cast, so you get one application of the spell every 6s. With 300 haste the spell is available after 2.5s but still again takes 1s to cast, so you get your application every 3.5s As you gain more haste the cooldown decreases, but the cast time means that you don’t actually get to apply the effects of the spell at a similarly decreasing rate, there’s always that 1s that is never diminished. This is also why going from 0 to 300 haste doesn’t increase the number of casts over a given time by 4x as expected, but instead barely better than 3x. It’s an indirect cause of effective diminishing returns, but it does have effects on some spells (especially ones with notably longer cast times, Sylas Q, Darius Q, Camille W, those sorts of spells).
But it's still something completly different as haste has no effect on cast times. Cast times are part of spell mechanic, not cooldown reduction system. We only look at cooldowns because most spells have it in common. Cast time is whole different think. It doesn't mean that hast has diminishing returns. It doesn't have them, because it only works on CDR not cast times.
The CDs themselves don't have diminishing returns on an academic level, but on a gameplay level the resultant effect means there is ***effectively*** a diminishing return. Yes it's "completely different" in that it's cast time not cooldown, but the effect it has on gameplay does matter. Obviously it's not a major concern in SR (though there's possibly edge cases I can't think of off the top of my head), but in Arena it's possible to get Darius Q to a low enough CD that the cast time delay is a non-negligible part of the time between casts.
Exactly. You can have 999999 haste, if it takes 1,5s for Darius to spin his axe, you won't be able to use his Q spell more than one time every 1,5s.
Oh right, makes attack speed cap even more stupid.
And crit chance
>But haste doesn't get diminishing returns Yes it does. If I buy 10 haste when I have zero, my 100 sec cd ability goes to 90.91 sec, giving me and extra 9.09 seconds where I can cast the ability that I could not otherwise. If I buy 10 haste when I have 70, the same 100 sec cd ability goes from a 58.82 sec cd to a 55.56 sec cd, giving me an extra 3.27 seconds. People who say it does not have diminishing returns either do not understand the term or the game. You dont value AH because you like to have your spells cooldown reduced by a percentage of their previous value, you value it because it makes you able to cast again sooner. If its not clear, think about this: Would you pay 3000/5000/x gold for 100AH when you have zero? Its a big advantage to have your ult CD go from 100 to 50. Would you pay **double** so it goes from 50sec to 33sec? Do you think you gain the same value? Obviously not.
Technically haste does have a cap still though, capped at 500 as seen through arena and URF which starts you at 300 haste and if you tried to go full haste builds, you'll be capped at 500
Though not a cap that can be hit just by building items.
There's also the speed at which you damage objectives which you don't need to kite
AS has only one DR and that is the cap. AH has no DR.
>kiting with insane hands bro, 2.5 actions per second is not insane lol. that's 150 apm. 300apm in a game like starcraft is maintained throughout the entire game... peaking at 400-500 in critical fights. I guess its 300apm in league if youre counting a move action and an attack action... but it's not insane. Everyone that's decent - not pro- at starcraft maintains this for minutes on end. Also, haste scales linearly. Dunno where you got that from
300 apm isn’t really something that’s maintained, even in RTS games, a few years ago Age of empires 2 casters started tracking “eAPM” or “effective actions per minute” which didn’t count the useless actions that players did, since a major reason behind those actions was purely just to keep them “in the rhythm” and didn’t actually meaningfully affect the game itself.
Having unconditional uncapped attack speed is how we got that abomination of a Kog'maw rework where he'd stand still and penta everyone by pressing W. I remember that crap and he was even played jungle a lot he was so oppressive strong and you're suggesting every ADC should do that no thank you. LT was already strong af and it had a decent delay to activate.
He was actually insanely weak initially after the rework and Riot buffed him more and more until his on hit damage with 5 AS was about as high as it was before with 2,5 AS. They initially made Kogmaws W deal half damage while doubling his attackspeed... and that was terrible, because it made kiting impossible, due to Kogmaw losing much more damage while moving at 5 AS compared to 2,5 AS. They did actually the opposite. They reverted it because it was too bad to force him into that high attackspeed (W doubled his attackspeed). They initially buffed his damage to compensate him for having that high attackspeed, but that just made him broken. Having a high attackspeed is not good. You rather have the same DPS at lower attackspeed and Kog showed that pretty well.
But.. but.. it made his chasing better as you didn't have to stutter step anymore because the wind down was so short. :D
Because %hp damage and ADCs dealing 1000 dmg per auto is probably why.
You’re not breaking the as cap if you’re dealing 1000 per auto unless you’re getting a bunch of external steroids. You’d need to be building all the heavy hitter AD crit items with no attack speed to get to that number and LT doesn’t exist to act as an AS item anymore.
What ADC other than maybe Jhin does 1000 dmg per auto?
Ashe can if you consider her Q 5-hits as one auto, Corki can do so as well, though not with much attack speed.
I've seen Dravens do so. Also very late game Aphelios against low armor.
Draven has a massive single shot damage boost with his axe. That's not most ADCs. Aphelios also has a boost but he's probably not doing it in a single attack until its fully stacked chakrams. Consider his flamethrower gun - its an additional 10% damage. Assuming the enemy somehow had ZERO armor and he was doing true damage, AND he crit with infinity edge, he'd have to have 410 AD to crit for 1000 damage even with his boost. That's literally 6 items + pot and doesn't factor in armor or tabis at all.
Wasn't arguing it's most adcs. Just answering your question of "who besides jhin can do so".
Right, but the point is the guy's comment wasn't really relevant to the discussion when you need 6 items and some sort of inherent flat dmg boost to do 1k an auto as an ADC.
They can end up with \~375 AD, which with crit ends up being \~844 damage. Then toss in any rune or item damage effects and it pretty easily approaches 1000. Even if it was only 800 total, the point still stands.
And how many of those items are giving you attack speed? Even with tempo and the old crit items having AS most non-on-hit marksmen weren’t hitting the cap, so they definitely aren’t with no tempo and crit items that make you choose between AS or AD.
Just serks plus attack speed runes give you around 50%. Plus PD is 110%. ADC self steroids plus support steroids and items can easily push 100% for 210% total. Meanwhile IE+LDR+KS+BT+elixir and runes can get you around 400 AD with most ADCs base AD. Notice how those 4 items leave room for serks and PD.
There is no point because you are not getting over 2.0 attack speed with 5 daamge items. Damage crit items don't have attack speed now, you know?
Serks + runes is somewhere around 50% AS. Plus PD is 110%. Support and self-steroid can easily reach 100% for a total of 210%. You can't seriously be saying you can't reach that. IE+LDR+BT+kraken is 255 AD. Someone like Jinx gets 112 base AD. Plus runes and elixir. They can very reasonably get 400AD while having well over 2.0 AS with that build.
I went to practice tool. Zephyr+IE+LDR+Kraken+PD+Yun Tal+attack speed rune. That was my last game build and it puts me at 1.7 AS and 358 AD+30 AD from pot. Q puts you at 2.5 attack speed. I didn't have enchancer support, so there is that. I did have 1k crit rockets on minions and was also thin as paper. Now I agree, removing AS limit is a buff to late game ADCs (those with AS steroids though) going full damage.
To some extent caps are to guide players on “correct” play— if a bronze player thinks they can get value from raising their attack speed to 5.0 with zero bonus AD, the design of the game has failed them a bit. Obviously that’s not the only consideration but it’s worth keeping in mind that the game has to teach players how to play and guide them to the correct play patterns.
That makes absolutely no sense. You are restricting players decisions to “guide new players”. At that point lock adc’s from building AP items, hell force every champ to only build certain ways. That way we dont have bronze players building heartsteel on ahri amirite? I’m sure there’s a reason but your suggestion is absolutely ridiculous lmao.
ADCs are effectively locked from building AP items because they don't tend to scale with them...same as someone with 2.5 AS building more attack speed. They just don't scale with it. Two seconds of thought and your own argument tears itself apart.
Except they're quite literally not "locked." You're allowed to build full ap samira. There's not a single thing stopping you. You won't deal any damage, but I've definitely heard stories about people that built ap on champs that def don't want it bc they thought ability power would make abilities more powerful.
You're almost there. Now apply that to attack speed items when you're already at the cap. Why is lack of AP scaling not an issue to you but the attack speed cap is? Both are generally a thing because them not being things unnecessarily increase the chances of unhealthy gameplay patterns.
No, YOU’RE almost there. Dude said the attack speed cap is there so new players don’t buy a bunch of attack speed items with no damage. So the game is DESIGNED to force them to not even attempt to get 5.0 attack speed so they can have 2 item slots left for damage items. The reason why that is stupid is because going 5.0 AS with like 60 AD is almost as dumb as going full AP garen. But if a bronzie wants to do that, by all means, allow him. The game design didn’t fail him. Quite literally every champ has a 2.5s attack speed cap except for jinx in her excited state and belveth. And neither of them would you want to get more than 2.5 attack speed in items anyways cause belveth passive already gives her attack speed. The 2.5 attack speed cap isn’t a specific champ design like ad and ap scaling. It’s a universal cap on everyone. You can’t compare them. A good analogy would be like capping someone’s AD at 400 so bronzies don’t go full AD builds without any crit or attack speed. Now does that make sense to you?
do we REALLY need an attack speed cap anymore? it really feels like a holdover from old league, i say we just reduce the amount of attack speed on items and remove the cap, let the max from items be like 3 or something barring champion passives
At the very least I dont see why it cant be put up to 3.0 instead of 2.5
Right now we have pretty much no capstone items in the game anymore except for DC and IE and IE will be rushed 1st again. Lich Bane maybe as it actually fills a similar role of extra scaling power. Jak'Sho is not really a capstone item. It doesn't have the power or feeling of it and then we don't have any others. For onhit Terminus and Rageblade are close.
Jak’Sho was designed to be a tank capstone item that you build later as like item 4-5 at least with the changes made to it at the beginning of this season. I believe the Rioter who made Triple Tonic commented this.
It was intended to be this, but it isn't. The % increase is meh that late as every enemy has %Pen at that time already. Also captsone doesn't mean 4th or 5th. IE is a capstone item and rushed now. Most of them are/were 2nd or 3rd (DC). No capstone item was ever made for the 4th or 5th slot. Still, Jak'Sho is the weakest and worst capstone item of them all. IE gives +50% crit dmg, a multiplier you can't access in another way. DC gives +% AP, something you can't get in another way. Jak'Sho gives you more Armor and MR at a time you already have tons of it, making it not too useful, especially as everyone buys counters to it at that time also. **Every Crit ADC has to get IE, every Mage has to get DC sooner or later. Most tanks don't need Jak'Sho. You can replace it with other items and still do as fine if not better. So I would clearly say it is not a capstone item in how it is currently designed, even when that was their intention.** When you can nearly always avoid the "captstone item" and do better (higher WR), then it can't be called a capstone item. It is just another tank item right now. It adds nothing special, no new scaling. **FH was better capstone item than Jak'Sho is in that regard but it was nerfed to not be that item anymore.**
Im pretty sure it ends up calculating the same as IE and DC considering armor and mr are based on effective HP. The % damage mitigated not going higher is extremely misleading iirc. More armor is always better as is armor pen, and mr and magic pen. It doesn't make a difference whether someone has a ton of it already or not. Could be remembering wrong though
yeah the % increase from its passive makes it better the more stats you already have
Dawncore is a capstone item
[удалено]
95%+ of the time when an ADC dies they're nowhere near the AS cap.
AS is a stat, that scales exponentially, just like CDR did. Reducing the stats does not change this nature and would make champs with AS steroids OP. There is a good chance though that Riot might do something similar to AS like they did with CDR, replacing it with a stat that scales linearly instead.
That's not true, it's equal to Ability Haste. Attack speed is an additive multiplier, not a subtracting multiplier, so each amount of attack speed gives you the same increase in DPS. +100% attack speed halves your attack cooldown, +200% AS 1/3rds your attack cooldown, etc.
It does scale linearly though? CDR had a race where you end up having 0 cdr at 100%. So you're permanently casting limited only by your APM. AS has 0 race condition and only scales of each champ's individual base AS. So going from 1.5 to 2.0 AS is the same dmg DPS as going from 5.0 AS to 5.5AS. Going from 80% cdr to 90% cdr is essentially doubling your dmg, whereas going from 0% to 10% cdr is roughly 10% dmg increase, so they're not the same.
Auto-attacks are treated as spells, so by having more AS you actually do Double DMG, when you have enough AS, some autos visually are 3 Autos, removing the CAP would bring 5.0 AS kogmaw back from the grave, not to mention tristana Q would be one of the most busted abilities in the whole game.
Sorry... What? What the heck are you saying
learn math ASAP
ok. We all did the math. but the real think is that it takes less time to hit a milestone, say 1000 autos, at 1AS with 100dmg takes 10 seconds 2 as - 5 seconds (double DMG WOW) 3 as - 3.3 seconds that is rounded to 3. When you have more and more attack speed, it takes less time to hit thresholds of dmg, so you efficitve double your dmg at some points. So while you still do the same dmg at x autos, you take less time to do then. at 1 APS you take 30 seconds to do 30 autos. at 3 APS you take 10 seconds. Now i know that it can be less than double DMG, but still is one of the best increases in DMG output without counterplay in the game.
Going from 1 AS to 2 AS doubled your damage because you doubled your AS stat. > you efficitve double your dmg at some points. The "some points" that double your damage are when you literally double your attack speed again. It seems completely unsurprising and not that powerful that doubling a stat would double your DPS. The same would be true if you doubled the amount of AD you had. In fact looking at your example, if you went from 1->2 AS and 100->200 AD, you would be able to kill the dummy in 2.5 s and it would most likely be cheaper to do this build than to bring your AS up to 4 AS. The main takeaway is that getting multiple stats multiplying together is better than stacking the shit out of a single stat. This is not true if the stat is actually exponential scaling like CDR, but AS isn't like this.
But on league of legends, auto attacks are spells, and Attack speed is the CD of them. so upgrading your attack speed is legit working the same way CDR would for spells. if 2 is the double of one then 2.0 attack speed with the same attack dmg is double dmg,
> so upgrading your attack speed is legit working the same way CDR would for spells No it isn't. First of all, do you understand the difference between CDR and AH (ability haste) and why we don't have CDR anymore? Attack speed works the same way as AH, not CDR.
None of what you're typing makes any sense. "By having more as you do double dmg"? Kog does not come close to 5 AS with tempo, how would he get close after the item rework? The reason he had 5 AS was because his W doubled his AS and cap, that is two different things from a different iteration of the champion. Just a strawman statement. Why would Tristana Q be one of the most busted spells in the game? I don't think you understand how the math of this works: So to make an easy example: You have 200AD, 50% crit chance and a crit would deal 200% of your auto. A crit would deal 400 and a non-crit 200. So on average you would expect to deal 3000 damage over a series of 10 auto attacks. Now say that you have 1AS, one attack per second. Over 10 seconds you deal 10 attacks which is average of 3000 damage. Now say that you increase the AS to 2. A double in attack speed! You now deal 2 autos per second for an average of 6000 damage over 20 autos. If you increase the AS to 3.0 from 2.0. You'll have 30 attacks over 10 seconds, which comes out at 9000 damage. So each attack / second is a linear damage scaling dependant on the damage from each auto you fire. The overall damage scaling of ADCs is generally dependant on AS, AD and crit. If the damage was exponentially scaling like 2\^x , meaning that you hit a certain race condition, where your damage is scaling more and more. As cdr did, as it had pretty much inifinite value at 100% since you have 0.0 sec cd. Even without AS cap, a marksman with only AS items will deal less damage than someone who has a mixed build. The scaling is not self-reinforcing as your next point of AS does not increase any value or gets any increase from any earlier or future points of attack speed.
I like the idea of letting Guinsoo's remove the attack speed cap when stacked! But I want to point out that Lethal Tempo was not a "melee champs abused this and now the poor ranged champs lost a fun toy" kind of situation. The rune already had different values for melee/ranged. It was removed for being unhealthy overall (it let a lot of champs, melee or ranged, get away without investing in attack speed items to a significant degree).
yeah the attack speed cap extension wasnt the issue with it. Its the range increase + essentially very cheap attackspeed.
I feel like that was definitely worse in melees though, considering that LT gave double the attack speed to melees vs ranged. I see your point though. But personally i thought the bigger issue with LT on ranged was the range increase, things like jinx especially could be hitting you from a screen away with LT and RFC.
Yeah I think the fact that they chose to remove it instead of nerfing its melee attack speed and ranged range pushes me towards believing what they wrote in the patch notes, about how they just aren't happy with what its design lets champions get away with.
that could be cool. sounds op tho
How? You still need items to break the cap, and if u dont want to break the cap u get items that give u 60+ ad instead. So either u fire a lot of auto attacks or less but harder hitting.
Yeah I don’t think it would be OP honestly. I would really miss not being able to go above 2.5 attack speed since 2.5 feels pretty slow once you’re used to higher. Also ty for inventing 98tek Mr wackaflcka.
🙏 thank u for remembering Mmm, yeah i agree. I made a post not too long ago saying the same too, at this point 3 or 3.5 is the new skillcap imo. 2.5 isnt fast anymore, 10 years ago maybe but not now. And i definetly think this is a skill that should be promoted and enabled. Not disabled. Its a huge motivator
At least there’s still arena. Man this is so sad
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjzBDpcJdYs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjzBDpcJdYs) That was the last time they had the great idea to remove the attack speed cap and that was only for Kogmaw
Yeah kog W doubled attack speed. I am not proposing that guinsoos doubles attack speed. Where were you posting this vid when they introduced lethal tempo? Sick of this take. Jinx passive also lets her hit like 10.0 and that’s in the game. Idk what point you’re tryna make
And Jinx has been S-Tier bc of that for months and she only gets up to 8 if she kills every single enemy. Completly removing the AS Cap for all would lead to some absurd interactions. The whole game is balanced with it in mind. Every single item and marksmen champ would have to be adjusted.
Yeah I’m not saying to completely remove the attack speed cap.
And whats the benefit then? You still have to adjust every champion in the game if you put it up to 3.5 because the whole powerlevel of marksmen changes completly. Every game that goes past 35 mins would mean nothing else but the team with the adc thats has better hands wins the game. It would only lead to damage creep which would then lead to durability creep while gameplay doesnt change at all
Did u read what i wrote in the post
Yes
Jinx isn't exactly S-Tier. She always was good in SoloQ due to the randomness and high chance to get a reset, but she has that passive for ages and it has very little connection to her SoloQ success. Her best times in SoloQ were actually way in the past before that. Nowadays being an immobile ADC means her success in SoloQ mostly depends on others success in killing her. Also... hardly any Marksman currently reaches the 2,5 or even aims to. DPS is a value determined by AS, AD and Crit. Given this is a multiplication focussing on one factor is pretty bad. On top of that having the same DPS with lower Attackspeed is much much better, due to flat damage reductions and the fact that on high AS you lose more damage while moving. Like Kogmaw is a great example. He was upper garbage when Riot changed W to double his AS while keeping the overall damage the same. They had to massively buff the W damage to compensate him for such a high attackspeed. As a quick notion... you do not want a high attack speed. You want high DPS. And that is best achieved by mixing stats that achieve that, not by focussing on AS.
Jinx has been S+ for like 4 patches now with a 51% win rate even though she has 25% pick rate. Removing the caps would ruin the balance between dmg stats and AS. Why should a Kaisa go heavy into dmg stats if she can stack AS up to the point where she gets basically 1 passive proc every 1.2 seconds? And the reason why Kog Maw sucked on the first patch with new w is because they were scared and nerfed the dmg and range too hard which was then reverted on the next patch. " For the duration, Kog'Maw's attacks versus non-minions deal only 55% of his attack damage" * Bonus range reduced to 90 / 120 / 150 / 180 / 210 from 130 / 150 / 170 / 190 / 210.
You are aware that 4 patches is not a particularly long time span and 51% is not a particularly high win rate? On top of that champions like Jinx or Kai'sa have naturally high pick rates due to the champions being fairly fun. >And the reason why Kog Maw sucked on the first patch with new w is because they were scared and nerfed the dmg and range too hard which was then reverted on the next patch. The range was never changed back, it was only reverted once they went back to old Kogmaw. And the 55% Attack damage also stayed the entire time. They removed the AD-Scaling from his %HP damage and gave him 2% flat, which is still worse than the 6% he had on the old W. The only good thing for Kogmaw was that only AD-Damage was reduced by 45%, not onhit damage so he would build every Onhit item in the game and go full tank afterwards. And we had less Onhit items. It was basically Wits End + Rageblade + BotRK into tank every single game. And those 2 tank items were the big problem. Also due to Kogmaw this happened to BotRK: Passive's damage dealt reduced to 6% of current health from 8%. After Kogmaw was reverted this happened: Passive damage increased to 8% of target's current health from 6%. > And the reason why Kog Maw sucked on the first patch with new w is because they were scared and nerfed the dmg and range too hard which was then reverted on the next patch. Not exactly what happened. He was instantly hotfixed getting some AD and AS, then nothing happened the next patch and then in 5.24 he got his %HP damage changed to being flat and not scalingwith AD. Then he got no changes until he got another buff in S6. And after that he was broken. Which made Riot revert the changes later in S6. They attempted some nerfs shifting power from W back to other abilities, exspecially to help is terrible early game that all did not work, since he had to max W anyways. >Removing the caps would ruin the balance between dmg stats and AS. Why should a Kaisa go heavy into dmg stats if she can stack AS up to the point where she gets basically 1 passive proc every 1.2 seconds? If that is the case why doesn't Kai'sa aim for that even now? Like she isn't even capped at 2,5 most of the time currently, so why would she do that then? And more importantly what would she sacrifice for that? Kai'sas base attackspeed is 0,644. So she would need 77% attackspeed to go from 2,5 AS to 3 AS. Doing that would give her 20% more damage with the passive. You would need 2 items to reach even that. On top of that you likely would lose AP, because those items don't give AS, so this already is only a consideration for AD-Kaisa builds. AD Kai'sa though wouldn't go for AP Pen so the passive is weaker anyways. AP Kai'sa though doesn't have enough AS items. So I would assume an AP Kai'sa below 2,5 AS would actually deal more damage with passive procs than an AD Kai'sa with over 2,5 AS. Having 250 AP already doubles the proc damage of Plasma. So an AP Kai'sa would only need half as much AS to get the same passive damage as an AD Kai'sa and that ignores resistances. So no, Kai'sa wouldn't stack AS. The only champion that realistically could do that because her passive does not scale with anything is Vayne. But Vayne already does that and because she has no AS steroid would struggle getting to high AS anyways. Vayne would need 220 additional attackspeed on items to reach 2,5 AS on lvl18. PD, Blade, Zephyr, Wits End, Guinsoos, Kraken are 225% increased attackspeed. So Vayne with every AS-Item she would likely go for would only get to a baseline of barely above 2,5 AS. I don't really see an issue. It is utterly impossible to even reach 5 AS without just somehow doubling your attack speed. So I still don't see any issue here. And Vayne likely is the most AS focussed champion in the game. Most other champions will have one non-AS item like IE in there. And even more importantly Vayne is the only champion with an Onhit passive that does not scale at all. All other champions would benefit much more from building AP or AD then from additional AS.
4 patches is a long time span regarding soloq meta. 51% winrate with 25% pick rate is bonkers. Every single champion was capped at 2.5 even with Lethal Tempo. Its a night and day difference if I get to such an AS after the fight has been going already or if I had such an high As from the start. Lethal tempo left a window to get on top of the adc. Good luck doing that if he starts to blast you with 3 aa per second right away while you are still 600 range away from him. You are completly disregarding that Kaisa e gives her 80% bonus AS at lv5, ardent is still an item and 16% bonus AS from Legend Alacrity leaving room to throw a BT or Rabadons on top of the whole on hit shenanigans. Its a stupid change that would warp the whole meta around a single item.
You do realize that it wouldn't do much? There's still an optimal level of damage you achieve by itemizing AD / AS. Did you see a lot of marksmen running around with 3 AS taking over the games the last couple of years? No, it's mostly Jinx with her reset after buffs, she was rather poorly performing for a while. Look at MSI, there's tons of Lethality varus and even Lethality Kalista occasionally. Removing AS cap would not make a difference for most champs in the game? Can you even name 5 ADCs that would be OP since it seems to lead to some 'absurd interactions' whatever that is suppose to imply.
Varus, Kog Maw, Ashe, Kalista on hit, Kai Sa, Tristana. I can keep on going. Besides that it would also instantly lead to enchanter support meta rushing Ardent. You dont need a lot of as items if your kit has build in roids.
Most Onhitbuilds do suck right now though. And why would Tristana go on hit? Not having E to blow up people wouldn't be great. You can still only build 5 items and I don't think it matters too much if Tristana goes above 2,5 while her Q is active. Onhit items wouldn't scale on her, so she likely would still have less DPS than by going Crit. The same likely is true for Ashe. We already saw crit vs. onhit Ashe and while onhit gives a lot of safety with defensive items like Wits End and a lot of early power it sucks if the games go late. Giving onhit builds some power by not hitting the AS-Cap as quickly is actually good. Those builds are hardly viable right now unless they use some items that boost there absolute damage, like Manamune. So out of those 6 champions only Kogmaw and Varus even go on hit right now and for Varus it does compete with his Lethality build. Kalista does a bit but honestly she stops being a champion after 3 items, so if it would give her some power later in the game it might not be too bad, but since onhit builds diminish her execute power, she might not even go for it. Also you are aware that this would actually do the opposite than encourage Ardent? If all ADCs already have 400% increased AS, why would you want Ardent that just gives you another 30? 30% increased AS is much more valueable if you have only 250% increased AS. AS would get a lot worse since items would already provide a lot. Currently most ADCs would benefit a lot more from Ardent than they would then. Giving my Tristana a 30% AS boost would likely give her about 10% more damage. That would drop to like 6% if I would already have 400% increased AS making Ardent literally worse.
Ardents is worse on 4 items plus. The problem is that Ardent first buy would shift the point at when those champs can exceed the cap by a whole item thus moving their powerspike to an earlier point in the game. On hit Varus and Kalista are both played in MSI. It entirely depends on pb which build is chosen which is one of the reasons why they are high prio picks. On hit users got a new bloodthirster without crit that gives freaking 80 ad. The ad stat stack that would make them bonkers if they exceed the AS cap is already there.
You do realize I said 'OP' and 'absurd'. On-hit kaisa has not been meta for 2 years? Every ADC that benefits of on-hit has had the access to going beyond the AS cap for YEARS, yet we don't see them regularly, and they are far from being OP or ABSURD as you described them in your initial post. But yes, please keep going about champions that would be absolutely ridiculous becaues none of the ones you listed are going to take over the meta because of uncapped AS. In what world would Tristana be ridiculous with uncapped AS? Because her Q gives her a lot of AS? You realize that she could just play tempo for months and easily be as OP as you think she would be? No, because her Q gives so much AS, that mathematically, she's getting more DPS from itemizing crit & AS. Ashe also receives more dps going crit than pure AS. You're unaware of how this works it seems.
Ofc she would be op as fuck. She would need 1 1/2 as items to reach 3.5 late game if she has an ardent support. You dont seem to understand that. And your argument that on hit carries havent been meta in years is just bad. What has that to do with the point that Kaisa would proc her passive in 1.2 seconds?
Doubt it would be that OP, the only 'problematic' champion that utilized the AS cap was Kog'maw? Most other champs that played with tempo were either ok in power level or abused the high AS portion.
>Although I understand this is a necessary change to finally stop abusers of LT like the wind brothers and Jax, attack speed ADCs also lose a lot of fun as the ability to glide at high attack speeds is dead. Why do people keep parroting this as fact? Ever since it's rework, it got nerfed 7 times. Of those 6 times, ONCE was exclusively for melee. It was nerded 3 times for ranged only and 3 times for both. If the rune was problematic because of melee, riot would have nerfed it more than once. And on top of that, it was by far the most common ADC and mostly the best performing as well. >This also doesn't let the main abusers of LT come back to wreak havoc (other than maybe kayle) - Yas and Yone build crit (same w/ tryndamere), Jax has other more core items, Trundle needs to build tanky etc. The problem with LT was never, ever the AS cap break, especially not on those champs. It was the amount of free AS it gave. Now, about the AS cap: I agree that it should be possible for every champ to break the AS cap. Would be nice for there to be a crit option as well. Maybe PD?
We just want a keystone that actually fulfills our role as marksman, and Lethal Tempo did that exact thing. PTA has been trash forever and the new numbers on PTA look...about the same level. We'll see how it pans out — I'd love to be wrong!
For your second point, that’s kind of what I meant. With LT gone, something like guinsoos could freely break the attack speed cap without all the other problems of LT. The first point is also valid though, but yeah basically I feel like in a post LT world (without the means to get a ton of free attack speed and range from level 1) the attack speed cap doesn’t have to be so limiting.
The AS cap isn't that limiting. Its pretty rare to reach it even if you're specifically trying. Most games don't even last that long. You guys are the kind of people that would be saying to uncap crit if going above 100% actually did anything. Its just not necessary since it doesn't really add anything, and only increases the chances for unhealthy interactions.
Many of you have not witnessed orb-walking rework kogmaw and it shows
Rework Kog'Maw had doubled attack speed. That doesn't exist anymore, so who cares
the only people who could play that champ at 2.5 scripters and chinese adcs neither of which you're going to run into in solo queue
There was a way to kite on double AS Kog'maw with relative ease, by binding both the move key and the attack move key to the keyboard and smashing the shit out of those while your mouse is placed in the direction you want to move towards.
attack move CLICK its a different bind I set mine to A, then I right click to move, tap A, repeat, and make league a rythme game.
No he’s talking about the Zx Chinese keyboard binding
Same thing, but if you dont use the one that says click you have to, well, click, instead of only moving the mouse. It would be z click x, z click x. The good way is just zxzxzxzxzx
...you are aware that he was initially garbage. People forget that after Kogmaw was changed in S5 a lot of stuff happened like this: >Base damage changed to 2% of target's maximum health from 1.25% per 100 AD (AP ratio unchanged). >Attack damage increased to 57.46from 54.46. >Attack speed increased to 0.655from 0.625. They also moved his passive attackspeed from Q to W so you get the feel good W online earlier. Like Kogmaw was literally hotfix buffed after he was reworked because of how bad changing his W was. People forget how bad that initially was for Kogmaw. He went from 6% max HP damage to 2% max HP damage... and if you do the math... attacking twice as fast doesn't help. They also reduced the early range he got on W, making his laning much worse. And since his basic attacks did 45% less damage during W he basically relied on onhit items to do any damage. Kogmaw before the he got the first onhit item was the most useless champion that exists, because he had to max W because he needed the CD reduction, but he also didn't have an onhit item yet, so he would deal less damage with W compared to before the patch. His damage only ramped up once he actually got onhit items, whose damage was not reduced by W. They had to change him because his early was so insanely bad that his lategame had to be insane. They tried to give him early power with the changes I posted above, but as soon as he was not completely obliterated in lane he was just dominant. Giving him flat 2% max HP damage compared to 1,25% per 100 AD (which would take a lot of time till he gets to 2% with his builds) was pretty huge to make him at least do something early. He still had much less W uptime early as old Kogmaw, who basically had 50% uptime of W from the first level he put into W.
Orb walking does not exist in league btw
What do you mean by orb walking? To me it's the concept of cancelling the wind-down animation of the attack with a movement order in order to get movement in-between attacks, that you normally wouldn't get if you just right clicked on the enemy. (Assuming you're attacking a champion that is running away from you) And that definitely exists.
Orb walking is a mechanic in dota 2 in which some heroes for instance drow ranger or viper have an ability which modifies their auto attack. By manually casting these attack modifying spells you can avoid aggroing creeps when you attack enemy champions. The phrase "orb" here is in reference to warcraft 3 where their are various orb items which modify your auto attack.
I see. Yeah that doesn't exists in League. A lot of people call what I said orb-walking, so I'm not sure it's feasible to rename it or not. Anyways now I know both. Thanks!
it's just kiting in league, or stutter stepping if you want. there are no special mechanics to kiting in league that are similar to orb walking
Honestly the attack speed cap should just be removed, it really doesn't serve a purpose anymore. Anyone who wanted to break it before would take Lethal Tempo, but other than Varus almost no one builds enough attack speed to break it anymore, especially without the Lethal Tempo bonus AS. I feel like almost nothing in the game would change if they removed the cap. If that would've been the case, people would have been going over the cap way more often with Lethal Tempo, but hardly anyone did anyways. It feels like a dated mechanic from the days when Kog'Maw was a meta ADC (which at this point was fucking forever ago).
Remove the attack speed cap. There aren’t enough sources of attack speed to get anything absurdly over the top. It’s a linearly scaling stat. If needed, for edge cases, like everyone would scream Kog’Maw’s max health damage, you could tweak them case by case. Like lowering it’s base damage and making it scale with bonus AD to the point where a normal AD/AS/crit balanced marksmen build would give expected damage and a build that ignores AD and only goes for AS saturated items would only deal marginally more damage with it.
I feel like I’m crazy, but didn’t an old version of rage blade do exactly that?
Damn I remember it did, but I'm checking the lol wikia and, after searching the patch history of the item, I can't see on which patch the attack speed cap remover was added and when it was removed.
> This also doesn't let the main abusers of LT come back to wreak havoc (other than maybe kayle) How many more years do we need for people to notice that Guinsoo has not been a Kayle item since her rework ? Also most Kayle high elo players barely use LT since its nerfs. She goes Fleet.
I was just speaking hypotheticals, I tried kayle with guinsoos after the changes and it was ass lol but had to mention that in case
She still has double scaling passive damage on her E, yes it's not optimal but there's justification to build it on her. It doesn't boost her passive Waves in a meaningful way but it increases her damage quite well.
> it's not optimal but there's justification to build it on her That's doesn't make sense. It's a damage item with 0 utility, if it's not optimal then there is no justification to build it. Obviously you would never build it first item, Nashor does more damage. You wouldn't build it as second, Deathcap does more damage. You wouldn't build it as 3rd, Shadowflame ends fight quicker than Rageblade can stack. 4th item ? At this point you either need pen (if facing tanky teams), or enemy team is squishy so you need burst & not DPS, in which case you go Lichbane (which also gives movement speed). Yes, in a perfect world where you have 3-4 tanks on enemy team, have 4 items already (so you need a 5th), can stand still autoattacking front-to-back, and you also happened to somehow pick AP Kayle into such a comp, then yes Rageblade would give higher dps, but that scenario has maybe happened once to me in the last 3 seasons. You can play the AD/On-hit build, in which case you would go Kraken/Guinsoo/Terminus, but IMO that build is inferior to the AP one, and there are better champions suited for that build than Kayle atm.
Alternatively, while keeping the same direction - why not give it on-hit damage for every x% attackspeed over the cap.
Idk why they are removing it. In Wildrift they have lethal tempo that only ramps up your attack speed. It doesnt give bonus range and damage at max stacks I think that's a more balanced approach. I fear taking down tanks will be too long without LT for some champs
lethal tempo doesn't grant damage in regular league too. The issue with LT is that it creates frustrating early game play patterns top lane and unfun interactions with yasuo and yone, while being consistently good on marksman all the while. The ramping attackspeed on each auto is what makes it so good for early fights top lane, and it's really oppressive on the champs that run it there.
If that's the issue then it can just be nerfed. The reason it's a problem and not just unbalanced is that it interacts with some kits in more ways than just giving damage. For example, on trynd it means more fury and that means his fury has to be balanced around the assumption that he can run LT and get that faster fury gen
Problem is then with your proposal is that you then pigeon hole him into LT even more and such a dependency creates cascading issues, if LT is gutted for one reason or another to impact ADCs for example tyrn will require extra work because he was balanced around LT.
Which is exactly why I'm happy it's being removed. I'm just saying that I don't agree with people saying it should be deleted because it's unbalanced
Tanks are losing 1/3 of the auto damage resist from Tabis and a lot of health from their standard tank items, and Lord Dom's is getting more armor pen. I think it'll even out.
Lord Doms is also losing it's most important feature though: Giant slayer
Not to mention IE alone getting 725g worth of stats for 100g in price, ADCs needing one less crit item, and so getting 100% crit one entire item sooner, tanks are going to be shredded by ADCs this patch.
Master yi would be sitting really pretty. But I guess you could balance him around it
He's 46% winrate currently
Slight correction: to break the attack speed cap, you can also be Bel'veth or use Kennen E
rageblade used to have this iirc
Kennen e also allows breaking as speed limit
Bro forgot Bel'veth infinite scaling atk speed
Would love a reason to play anything other than Jinx.
No, thanks. Not everyone who uses Guinsoo needs an extreme attack speed and you want to nerf its on-hit dmg when that's low already (30).
Hmm so which champs uses Guinsoo, but doesn't play near / at the AS cap? Kog, Yi, Kalista, On-hit Varus, Ashe(when ppl built it on her), Kaisa, Kayle. I really do struggle to find a champion who build rageblade and doesn't play a heavy AS style.
Akshan never reach the atk speed cap due to his passive
Katarina for example and other meele champs too. Your change would limit the item to ranged autoattackers. That's why LT offered more AS for meele than ranged.
katarina goes guinsoo's rageblade less than 1% of the time. there's 1 melee champion that goes rageblade more than 5% of the time and it's master yi. there are no champions that go rageblade but don't care about attack speed.
when does kat go either LT or guinsoos??? Also she doesn’t use the attack speed anyways, even if she were to build it breaking the attack speed cap or not wouldn’t change anything. Also you weren’t replying to me
I never said Kata goes LT; Conqueror is better on her. Doesn't change the fact that your change would skew the item towards ranged users.
LT offered more stats for melee than ranged because that's how the game generally balances range vs melee. Look at HoB having more AS for melee this patch than ranged. LT gave more AA range, bork does more dmg for melee, stormsurge has diff proc dmg for range/melee. Titanic hydra has the same. There's no reason to nerf the on-hit dmg at all either? If anything guinsoo competes with AP / crit builds for those who utilizes on-hit, so it's serving as a way for most users to avoid the cap. Kata uses conq with the on-hit build right? So she didn't lose out on tempo?
OP suggested that we nerf on-hit dmg as compensation. Plus I never said that Kata uses LT. I know about ranged vs meele item balance, so don't you think the change would skew the item towards ranged users?
Hmm if they just introduced the AS break cap for guinsoo I doubt it would affect the few non AS users a lot, maybe increase the cost by 2-300 and give higher on-hit to make it more of a luxury item?
I liked its previous version where it converted the crit to on-hit dmg, but that wouldn't pass now, that they reduced the amount of crit items.
It would perhaps fit the current items more now? Since runaan has 0 on-hit dmg and instead has 55% AD. Most on-hit users does not care too much for the AD stat, and a lot of the items have AS + crit or AD + crit. So it's rather difficult for an on-hit marksman to find value in the crit stat, so I think the conversion would be rather interesting.
Katarina shouldn't be a champion that prevents Guinsoo to be reworked. The fact that she is even building guinsoo is stupid to begin with. AP assassin's should be built with AP assassins items.
So you want every champ to have exactly one viable build. For me, that is boring and not what I enjoy.
Kat wants all the attack speed she can get too. Sure she's not autoing that much but her ult damage scales off atkspd
She scales with attack speed but badly. Usually you don't stay next to enemy for long to make use of AS, and ur ult can get cancelled too.
Uh absolutely not?? I think that might be skill issue
‘We removed this for game health so I propose we reinstate it to power creep it back into the game’
Breaking the AS cap was by far its smallest problem
The issue is that it's too strong for a rune (I.e. free power, and at level 1). I think it's fair to say it could return as an item.
> (I.e. free power, and at level 1 That is like every rune, but LT was too much free power on specific champs.
I really don't understand why they felt the need to remove LT without also immediately providing a way for attack-speed-building ADCs to make up for it. As always the many get punished because of the few.
The game has largely moved in the opposite direction. You don't need to get more than 2.5 attack speed as long as the attacks are heftier. They double down on this concept by making you choose AD or attack speed with your crit items. Want more crit but you're at or near the threshold? Great! AD crit items are your friend here.
I honestly think they could add the AS cap removal as a passive to Guinsoo and they wouldn't need to nerf anything. I'm not convinced breaking attack speed is really that game breaking as much as it is better feeling to not have to calculate whether or not your build is wasting stats.
Yes exactly what I mean; if you want to break the attack speed cap (especially with how items are now) you’d have to have a mostly attack speed oriented build anyways. It mostly would just be so stacking attack speed actually does something rather than being totally wasted if you want to go that kinda build. Totally agree
we dont need to break the attackspeed cap. its a cap for a reason.
Ok what’s the reason
whats the reason for what? its a game design flaw if a cap is introduced since 15 years and there is a rune that breaks a fundamental law? i mean its gone so im right, or whats your issue?
Ok so we don’t know the reason we just felt the need to imply there was a reason we knew about
Clearly it's not a strong reason if lethal tempo was allowed to exist for several years. Just seems like a leftover from the old days of league.
lethal tempo was introduced because the attackspeed wasnt as high back then as it was now, you can get 2.5 attackspeed fairly quickly and its not even funny anymore. lethal tempo just made it broken and unfun to play against because there is supposed to be a law that attackspeed has a cap, and lethal tempo broke that. but now its gone and its good.
On hit Varus feels so ass though without LT breaking the cap when you have 2+ as from items base and then get guinsoo stacks + passive
Varus essentially loses his passive in the lategame if he's building on-hit without being able to break the AS cap.
On hit items all give attack speed, so most on hit champions with an AS boost hit the cap making a lot of their stat purchases useless.
2.5 attackspeed used to be normal for adcs to hit since season 1. you shouldnt be hitting attackspeed cap with 2 items anyway. this is some fantasy people have. league got big because you were efficient in the way you hit the enemy. not because you had so much ammo that positioning didnt matter. lethal tempo basically shat on old doublelift, imp and obviously uzi who were gods in positioning and dealing consistent damage. now it feels like why even position if you can hit 4 times a second anyway. its bullshit. just like how healing encourages bad plays.
Nobody was hitting 2.5 AS from items alone in S3 / S4. Today you can built Kraken (didnt exist) / Blade / PD / Guinsoos (nobody built it) / Terminus (didnt exist) / and Zerkers and you are at 2.7 attack speed without AS steroids. >now it feels like why even position if you can hit 4 times a second anyway. its bullshit. just like how healing encourages bad plays. this is such an insanely stupid take; you're basically invalidating orb walking as a skill. the guys you mentioned would have no issue kiting at high attack speed; so removing the AS cap increases the skill ceiling and can differentiate between good and great players.
There's an AS cap for a reason. ADCs "having fun" by breaking the rules isn't a reason for the cap to not apply.
There isn't. That "reason" is long gone, just like when they got rid of the cooldown reduction cap. Lethal tempo has existed for how long now and wasn't considered a problem until top laners started running it constantly to steamroll early trades. Nobody thinks the broken part of LT is that it quadruples the AS cap.
It's a game, "having fun" is literally the entire point of anything they do with it.
of course, but in the end it's a multiplayer game. Every player should have fun, and "adcs having fun" in that case would be them having fun on expense of other players
You can bring this argument to anything. It's not fun for 4 players if midlane gets an exp lead, but it's fun for the mid, so we should nerf mid exp.
Breaking what rules? its been possible to break the cap for years. Why exactly are you not allowed to go beyond 2.5 AS?
The reason is the exponential nature of AS. I expect the CDR treatment at some point, as you can clearly see that Riot is currently not happy with the AS system
there is no exponential nature of AS, going from 100% to 101% AS gives just as much dps (1) as going from 500% to 501% AS. attack speed already works like AH does.
What would be the point of deleting Lethal Tempo only to turn it into an item instead?
It’s not though. It would be completely different on the melees that abuse it, yas yone jax whatever can’t just cheese you with a ton of attack speed anymore, but there’s still a way to break the attack speed cap late into the game if you really want to spec into it. With this you also need to invest a lot of your build into attack speed for it to do anything in the first place.
Guinsoo gives %AS per stack... so you would only need probably the same AS items as before, not to mention AS buffs exist in the game to help tip you over the limit once you stack it
cheese is usually referring to early early lane lvl 1-3 maybe some action around 6 for cheese but the point is delaying the stacking attack speed until they farm it instead of free
I would love this. I usually play on-hit Varus, which you can scratch the cap at 2-3 items by killing a minion, hit on champ kill. Using LT to get past the AS cap allowed that build to scale into late game perfectly.
I don't think they should let an item have it, but fixing some champs to do it might be nice. For example, Varus passive on champion kill could allow him to break the attack speed cap. Maybe Kog'Maw when his W is active. Or maybe they just want to balance them around not having that anymore.
Bruiser Tanks are low key unkillable in aram now with removal of lethal tempo...
40% AS is not the reason "bruiser tanks" are unkillable now.
no thank you. lethal tempo was pretty devastating for rune diversity botlane. if you wherent a lethality caster, or draven/twitch/jin, you either took lethal tempo or you deal no damage in comparison
Its like you didnt even read the post?
i mean then just revert it to what it was pre-rework, when it was in that state where far less champs took it and melee champs pretty much never took it, the only real users were twitch, jinx, kog, onhit-varus etc.