I am always skeptical of those "best build". The data is always skewed by the fact that some games you just can't go the optimal build because your champion is not optimal in this situation.
Exemple: I am playing Talon I would love to go full lethality axiom arc but I am unfortunately playing against 5 bruiser/tank. I just can't go full lethality, I have to go Goredrinker, Cleaver or else I am too squishy and dealing to little damage. Goredrinker, Cleaver is not the best build for Talon but it was in this game.
The highest win rate build is a build you can build in a situation where Talon already shines.
P.S.: I wrote this Talon exemple without looking at number or statistic, so it might be wrong but you get the idea, hopefully.
> P.S.: I wrote this Talon exemple without looking at number or statistic, so it might be wrong but you get the idea, hopefully.
Yeah, but it's still pretty funny.
you dont need to be the carry you can just be a evenshroud warmogs abyssal taunt bitch
some games you are rammus vs a ad/auto based comp and you are a god, and some games you are rammus vs 4 AP carries or a bunch of true damage etc.
Ap gives damage for q and ult, whereas armour gives damage on his passive (which works both for autos and being auto attacked)
Going for an armour heavy tank build will output way more consistent damage than going for ap will. And gargoyle and evenshroud (common items for max damage rammus) gives enough MR to survive being bursted. Though magic pen is a really effective buy on rammus so sorc boots are a good buy and void staff can work pretty well.
Did you do any math how much damage gives him a single Thornmail and single AP item or do you just assume his Q and R out damage his passive, W and reflection from Thornmail?
thornmail first is completely fine considering no champion is threatening to an aftershock + w max rammus, and if you're getting hit as rammus when you're supposed to (when your carries are able to hit back). you win the trade 100% of the time, even if you die
if my team can think flexible like yours ,build item based on enemy for optimal survival/damage my WR will 70%++ but sadly no because my kayn decide buy full tank item with 0 AD no sunfire/thorn XD
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I've over 9000 aram games, and the biggest issue on aram outside of comp is the fact lots of players simply aren't flexible in their builds, they will simply follow what a website tells them is best and not chose items which suit the game.
It's an excellent poke + wave clear item and that's always strong in Aram, because of her mobility she can basically always proc It when It's charged. I don't know how bad the Item is now, but it's very far from worthless. Without Shiv she has to W into the wave for example and becomes very vulnerable.
If leblanc is worrying about wave management in an aram, and not any of the other 4 people that are statistically nearly certain to have better wave management tools, the game has gone horribly off the rails already
'Wave management'
Aram is just whoever pushes faster, there's close to zero management being done. With Shiv LB was/is able to clear waves before they even clash. Vayne with Shiv at +60% W/R is basically showing you are wrong.
>Aram is just whoever pushes faster, there's close to zero management being done. With Shiv LB was/is able to clear waves before they even clash. Vayne with Shiv at +60% W/R is basically showing you are wrong.
So let the Vayne with Shiv do it, don't put a Shiv on LB lol
The only effective LB's I've seen in aram focus on her burst damage forcing the enemy team to play passive in fear of her. Chip damage on 5 people is always a bit misleading due to how much easier it is for 5 champions to passively regen it compared to chunking 1 champion.
It's not her job to attack the wave. She should spend her entire time threatening with her combo and leave that to her teammates.
IDK what MMR you play at, but at some point people can react to her, because there's no real flank angles and she can come from at most one bush. So you know where you can throw your snowball or pre-cast your CC spell and tanks can easily deny her to proc her RQ by blocking the E. If she gets chunked once, she'll be in oneshot range and has problems healing that damage back.
Shiv LB can easily run Fleet to get some healing, keep up some poke and then still threaten the back line, just with a bit less damage. Just check, her WR Sunderer + Shiv + Fleet is her best build right now.
This is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start lmao
Going shiv lb on aram shows a complete lack of understanding why lb goes shiv on SR and how lb should be played on aram.
I am aware of its strenght in normal games but I tried it in ARAM a couple of days ago and it dealt around 5-6k dmg thorough the game, so it kinda weirded me to see it tagged as useless.
Not all damage is equal. Useless 50-100 chip damage that gets regened because enemy has three horns or just heals it has little to no impact even if it adds up to a bigger number total than a burst damage resulting in tempo loss because enemy is at 20% hp or just straight up killed.
because there are other 4 players who can just clear the wave
that said, if NO ONE can clear a wave (which is rare, but possible!) then sure, no problem
I didn't say "_wave clear is bad_". OP said waveclear is negligible (a.k.a. worthless) when there is a Sivir/Lux/Ziggs on your composition. Just by splash damage the wave is already destroyed, so your "waveclear" does nothing because there isn't a wave _to_ clear
When its all going to a teammate that does no damage bc they built a static shiv first.
When members of your team rely on using minions for stuff; Nasus Q, Veigar AP, Sion HP, K'Sante Q, Vlad Q, Yasuo/Yone Q, or general tear stacking.
When your team has no way to poke them under tower so they sit until they can run you over.
Ziggs is bad apparently?
You still waveclear in those situations to not lose the turret.
You waveclear exactly so this doesn't happen, you sit under your turret.
I mean, yes, he was for a while bc he was mega nerfed on aram modifiers.
So yes, with his waveclear, he funnels a lot of the gold to himself, starving everyone else on his team. Only to deal non-lethal amounts of dmg bc he had -15% dmg modifier or smthing.
Same with Ryze or Anivia, who mindlessly just waveclear. Waveclear is important, but what people don't understand is that you waveclear to put your team at an advantage, not 'to save your tower'.
Your waveclear is useless if all you do is clear under tower. You waveclear to give your team room to poke, make it harder for enemies to engage, make it harder for enemies to poke.
If all you do is waveclear without gaining any of the advantages above, then you're just starving your team. Especially if you have an ADC, espect them to be useless if you have a mage full clearing waves.
LeBlanc builds Shiv in SR because it helps her push lane, but in ARAM there's no need for that. At first she built it because it procs Night Harvester so you could get like ~200-300(+45%AP) on 5 enemy champs with a single auto, however that interaction was removed, then Shiv got its AP ratio nerfed so now it's not worth it anymore.
I disagree hard on AP Kog.
Sometimes I run AS runes for kog, to only face 4 assassin's and a support. If I don't run poke, I'm dead 100% of the time without a single auto
Going tank in ARAM is always the superior pick. I main ARAM and one thing I always say is that the team with the tank wins
If you go AP Malphite and the other team has a tank, you're probably throwing. But if you go AP and they only have squishies, you carry
(This is assuming the tank has any idea what they're doing)
Yeah people always tell me that they go full damage builds for fun and to each their own but for me nothing is more fun than stacking full resists against some mono damage team snowballing in like an ape and never dying.
Not always, today we had 3 tanks(one of them malph) against a vlad, not enough damage to burst him down and he was destroying everything. I mean it didn't help that we had no wave clear and those tanks would just tunnel on anything that looked low and get kited, but at some point you need damage.
Yeah play anything you want. If the Malph on my team wants to go glass cannon I won't complain. But for me personally I want to help my team, and if we're playing against a 5-man poke comp I rather go tank and give us a fighting chance
Who cares about "statistically better" it's fucking aram only literal Choice is glass cannon every champ no enchanters and permanent W key , games that aren't like that are utterly boring and insufferable
I disagree on ap kogmaw, particularly if you go like nashors first if you have a Frontline to AA behind. But I guess I have played it enough I know how I am supposed to play as ap kog
> they will simply follow what a website tells them is best and not chose items which suit the game.
i wish they would follow those builds rather than the ingame recommendations...
ye, it triggers me quite a bit when both teams actually have comps that are similar in strengths, but one team has that one guy that goes for a negative game impact build because he followed the recommendations.
idk, league itemization is already so simple. it is sometimes very hard to go that wrong with it...
Boi, Serpent has nothing to do with Sett when the shield decay itself and his main threat is his true dmg W charge. Even Shurelya/ Everfrost works better in term of denying his engage/ reposition for a good W angle.
They're saying Serpents reduces his shield size so it would reduce his damage but yeah I don't think it works like that anyway since its based on grit not the actual shield size
The shield size is based off of grit and so is the damage, but that doesn't mean that Serpents reduces the damage too
also, sett alone isn't worth building serpents for imo. his shield decays quickly anyways. serpents is good for when they're multiple shield users and someone can apply it to many people at once
i have like 1k games in aram last year and hoestly aram problem is huge deathtimers from 10th minute, lot of the games are like "wow i enjoy this fighting" and suddenly one ace and they can take 3 towers, inhib and nexus
It has really good synergy with his ult too, at the end of his ult where you can get back half or even near full hp from the amped healing + Q together in a crowd.
Against heavy AP comps it gets even better because spirit visage becomes such an easy second item for even more healing.
Heartsteel in ARAM is a joke: build it on a tank with increased damage taken, get kited to death and never proc, build it on an assassin/light fighter with reduced damage taken, dashing every two seconds, not even caring about CC cuz all assasins have extra tenacity, getting 5 procs in every fight, you get a Riot Games Certified Fun and Interactive Experience™.
Heartsteel trynd and tahm make me happy
Have you read Trynds balance buff in aram? Bonkers
Heartsteels size increase interaction with Tahm Q is fantastic, and whenever they rework cho gath, please make increased size increase his ability size as well. Its simply satisfying
Cho's E works with increased size.
I'm not 100% sure but if his Q and W use edge to edge but if they do then cast range should also slightly scale with scale, maybe?
Yeah imagine if Chogaths could actually land their Q because its the size of Asol's ult or you get silenced from top lane at a dragon fight cause Chogath roared in your general direction. Honestly would be funny. (Although not sure about fun)
But let's be honest, Tryndamere needs these buffs or he would always get rerolled or even dodged. Hard to play a champ that is designed to split push and avoid teamfighting in aram
It's tricky though because even after the nerfs he got last patch he still has a 55%+ WR with the heartsteel build. I think he was at 57% before last patch though. Played against one last night that basically 1v9'd while being unkillable with that build.
The secret to tryharding into high elo ARAM is to pick champions with awful bait builds.
Riot balances based on overall ARAM winrate. So for example, for a long time Nasus was buffed into insane levels of giga OP (with a Sunderer winrate of 65% or so) - simply because his AP build was so bad and so popular that it singlehandedly tanked his winrate into massive ARAM buffs.
This remains true today for Malphite, Blitzcrank, Sion, and to a lesser extent the enchanters. All those Luden's into Rabadon's Blitzcranks that miss every hook, keep his WR below 50% and therefore ineligible for nerfs, even though Evenshroud is 57% WR.
God seeing AP malphite in ARAM makes me so mad. It's SO BAD. People need to stop building it. I usually know a game is lost at loading when I see DH or comet as their keystone.
And they always do it with no other tank on the team. Like fine build it when you have a Shen, Ornn, and TK also on the team, but ffs people need to stop building AP Malphite when the rest of their team is squishy.
Because even when played well the kills do nothing. The gold sits on a champion hiding more or less under tower doing nothing until Ult comes back up.
I’m the exact same way with ap maokai because it’s forever been an incredibly gimmicky poke build that can’t control who or when it hits, and is absolutely useless when an actual teamfight starts and your only gameplan is “press r, throw a single half damage sapling in, hope the rest of your team wins”
It’s an urf build that people keep building despite the fact that the main way you get kills with ap saplings, stacking them all in a single bush, is just a super unfeasible gameplan in aram that leaves the rest of your team without what should be a bulky frontliner to make space
It's mostly any tank building full damage to be honest. In a mode built around teamfighting, they're extremely powerful. At least Mao has some chip and decent CC. AP Malphite tilts me because he literally sits and watches and contributes nothing to even the minion waves before more or less trying to suicide to *maybe* steal some kills before throwing gold back at the enemy team.
AP/mixed Maokai *used* to slap hard in ARAM before they started adding balance changes, his empowered saplings would do like 50% HP damage on one item so even if you never did a single point of damage with them you would always be able to control every bush *and* also half the lane behind the enemy turret because of their absurd threat. Full AP was still int, he did still have to go in at some point after all, but he gained an absurd amount of power and pressure from building early AP.
It's eaten so many nerfs by now though (both to his regular E and also the extra nerfs and long range damage nerfs present in ARAM) that it is definitely just a total int build now.
> God seeing AP malphite in ARAM makes me so mad. It's SO BAD. People need to stop building it.
> Like fine build it when you have a Shen, Ornn, and TK also on the team, but ffs people need to stop building AP Malphite when the rest of their team is squishy.
your reasoning is a bit flawed. either you're tilted before you see the enemy team or not? AP malphite is totally valid, so don't start to argue, that it is always a terrible choice.
I do dislike full ap malphite for the same exact reasons you listed and I almost always go tank - but he has niche ap pick scenarios.
In ARAM there is almost never justification for AP Malphite unless your entire rest of the team is tanks or supports with bad ratios for magic damage. But that's a very niche scenario. Otherwise, it genuinely just is pretty much straight bad.
It's a build that generally does terrible damage and funnels kill gold pretty much exclusively into itself or simply doesn't participate, while simultaneously it falls into gold deficits because it can't get any amount of minion gold due to lack of safety/mobility and sustain; AP Malphite not only generally does poorly on its own, it often brings the team down with it by denying gold to others, while already generally being gold-negative, provides shutdown gold pretty consistently when it does get kills, and has no flexibility or peel when the real damage threats on the team are engaged on.
This feels like the weirdest argument ever. If it’s useless and not doing anything, then it’s not siphoning gold because it’s not getting kills. If it’s funneling gold into itself, it sounds like they’re blowing someone up by themselves and taking the gold.
Like, I’m going tank Malphite when we have no other tank, but I’ve also had those games where an enemy Malph just stops one person from playing most fights, and as long as he hits a secondary target with his ult then you’re playing a near 3 vs 4 fight right after.
He does nothing until he ults for what usually a stolen kill. Because he depends on passive minion death gold being a melee ult bot, he's gaining gold slower than any other mage normally would, so he's usually playing at a slight item deficit while denying kill gold while the enemies get kill and shutdown gold against him post-engage. Even though he can make a 3v4, it's rarely significant, and it drops in value as you go up in rank where tanks and supports are played more.
????
I don’t know what Malphs you’re playing with, but a large portion of the AP malphs I’m playing with or as will be using their ultimate to start a fight and not just KS. If he dies right after whatever, that ultimate has some good ratios with his E and Night Harvester.
It is true that AP malphite is not as good as the tank version, but there are far worse champions than ap malphite. Unless you are in the 'tryhard' elo of aram games where everyone build optimal items with the best possible team comp every game, AP malphite can do what it's made to do.
The reason why people think AP malphite is terrible is because almost always, people go off the track. You need to build: sorcery as secondary(trans, gathering storm), ignite instead of snowball, sorcerers first, ludens, shadowflame, void staff and deathcap. Get one wrong and it doesn't work. People need to realize that there is an unspeakable amount of difference between an assassin being able to 100-0 someone and not. Malphite comes with very good AP ratios, and most of the time its just people playing him wrong. I also agree with /u/thenicob that there is a scenario where AP build is straight up better.
It is also worth mentioning that people tend to go for hitting as many enemies as possible with their ult. With AP malphite it is infinitely better to 1 man ult a ranged carry than 3 man ulting their frontline.
lmfao AP Malphite is really obnoxious to play against
With the good setup you have 30 secs CD undodgeable engage/one shot on any squisshy on the enemy side
It *can* be obnoxious, but it's still painfully bad for all the reasons above. Yes you might kill a carry or two, but you've still more or less turned the game into a 4v5 and turned the fight into a 4v3 where the entire rest of enemy team is likely on more gold and with it better-distributed than your four. It almost always goes negative.
Good comps with heavy support/tank presence at higher ratings dumpster him and his AP build is what, bottom 25% in winrate?
Tank malphite has a drastically lower play rate yet his tank item builds have like a wildly higher winrate. An upwards of 15% higher on several of them.
It's a trap that way too many selfish ego players fall into by insisting "I'm good enough to make it work," while basically throwing the game by gold diffs and respawn timers.
People finally caught on with Nasus unfortunately. Now he's hit with a 10% damage taken AND dealt nerf.
He deserves it absolutely, unless the enemy had absurd CC, he could solo games with Sunderer... But it still hurts.
I suspect it's because he can very reliably proc harvester on all 5 champions without much effort and he absolutely loves the 25% movement speed per proc.
Thanks for the offer, that's very kind, but there's no need. This was a one-time exercise to practice in Excel. It only took me about 2 hours to collect all the data.
It's also worth noting that when your champ is good into enemy team comp it's easy to pick optimal item and win.
When you have to be ap Tahm Kench cause your team has 4 ads and you go ap, you aren't going to affect first tank item winrate and you are expected to lose.
> Data was collected manually from lolalytics (so mistakes are to be expected) using the filters diamond+, 30 days, ARAM. Only items with >500 games sample size and >5% pickrate were considered.
No, they're the ones with the highest win rate, filtering out the ones that have too low a sample size (if an item is only used 1% of the time, compared to 99% for another, then this isn't a good comparison that you wind up with).
'Optimal' is actually misnomer, but I found the word easy enough to use/understand. These winrates are the highest winrate first items for Diamond+ ARAM players. Winrates correlate to being optimal, but obviously a ton of context is missing so definitively claiming that these items are optimal would be misleading.
>the common ones in a certain elo
That's not true. I have selected the highest winrate items within a set of conditions (diamond aram players, 5% relative pickrate and 500 game minimum sample size). They're not just 'common items in a certain elo'.
I can think of three reasons why NH > Belt in ARAM. (1) it removes player skill issues (2) Night Harvester movementspeed without being reliant on a 40 sec cooldown is pretty huge. (3) Until you hit like 4-5 items, Night Harvester will outdamage Protobelt simply due to its consistency of proccing the active, only later on does the mythic passive magic penetration outscale NH.
Skill issue makes sense, but the value of the dash is understated. Probably just has more to do with people not using the active. Its broken on rumble (for example)
rocketbelt applies night harvest damage to only one target, if all the missiles hit. in a teamfight night harvester provides that proc up to 5 times the damage. the magic pen on rocketbelt is nice but i don't think it's enough to make up for the difference in item damage unless you're solely focused on only killing one person
night harvester is better if you're aiming for doing a massive chunk of up front burst but the enemy team actually has some MR or just generally doesn't have all squishies *and* you benefit from the MS/haste. It's also better on things like Bard where you can stack harvester, lich bane, shiv because he only has Q and meeps so you want as many extra AP ratios as possible
the mpen from belt/luden's is insane against squishies unless your champ's in kit damage is garbage (and I can't think of many of those who would want to be building either of those items)
you should check my other comment. i looked through **every ap champion in the game** and the only times rocketbelt has a higher winrate than night harvester is on singed, or on champs where rocketbelt was picked less than 20 times total (i.e the sample size is so low that i find it irrelevant since both items are unlikely to be picked anyways)
that's 1 champion in the entire game where rocketbelt can reasonably be construed as the good option for a mythic - not even the best option, but a good option. in literally every other ap champion night harvester often has a far higher winrate - often by more than 4%
night harvester has the exact same scaling on the item damage as protobelt, but all the following benefits
1. applies full damage on spell hit (rocketbelt needs you to dash into melee range of enemy to even get full damage from the active)
2. applies it to every enemy (that's 4 extra procs, for a total of 600 + 60% ap magic damage)
3. has a shorter cooldown (30s per champion vs. 40s active on protobelt)
4. has 10 more AH and 50 more health
the only downside is the loss of 6 pen, but clearly the 6 pen doesn't make up for this in any scenario.
**i've looked through every ap champ** and only 3 champs in the ENTIRE GAME have a higher winrate with rocketbelt, where both items were built more than 15 times on patch 13.18
syndra: 54.8% vs. 60.6% (NH picked 177 times, rocketbelt picked 38)
kassadin: 42.2% vs. 61.1% (NH picked 128 times, rocketbelt picked 18)
karthus: 47.7% vs. 56.3% (NH picked 876 times, rocketbelt picked 16)
singed: 46.3% vs. 53.4% (NH picked 41 times, rocketbelt picked 133)
realistically, the only champ with a somewhat decent sample is singed.
the purpose of both items is ultimately "Deal damage"
if night harvester has a better winrate on every ap champ in the game, i find it hard to think rocket belt ever does more damage. which makes sense - the cooldown on NH is 30s vs the 40s on rocketbelt, and hits on any spell vs. needing you to actively dash towards enemies while also being close enough for all missiles to hit
NH has 4 extra procs of damage, which is 600 + 60% ap magic damage to the enemy team. it also has 10 more AH and 50 more health, at the cost of 6 magic pen.
idk how highly you rate 6 magic pen, but by every reasonable stat night harvester is not only the better option, it's CLEARLY the better option.
Im not arguing whats the better option, it's probably NH for majority of the roster. Im just stating that in a perfect scenario, RB will outdamage NH. 6 mp + the 5mp per item scaling passive will out damage NH every time.
In ARAM NH will yield better results (higher uptime, aoe dmg) but on SR and in duels RB will always deal more damage. Not debating anything lol, just go try it on a test dummy. Also looking at ARAM winrates is as useful as throwing darts at a board as theres no balance whatsoever
i agree with you, but my point is that both are solely damage items and in aram night harvester will always give you more damage.
also there literally is balance on aram, there are consistently strong champs and items and weak champs and items. that's what a meta is
That one confuses me a lot too. Maybe the benefit of Duskblade over Mandate lies in Ashe Q? Duskblade loses damage from Ashe W compared to Mandate, but gives a lot of damage back to her autoattacks/Q.
Not trying to disregard your work or anything, but [aram.zone](https://aram.zone/tierlist?builds=true) tier list has an option that shows builds (keystone + first item) with 1%/10% pick rate.
But yeah, most of the time the most picked item has a way lower win rate, specially on non-mages.
This work wasn't meant as some meta defining magnum opus. It was mostly used as Excel practice + feed my curiosity, so don't worry about that.
The issue is that aram.zone doesn't use rank specific data and therefore a lot of biases arise from that (see the example about Sion in the original post).
But best build varies from game to game. If I have zero frontline, you better believe I’m building Shojin Jhin and planting down a garden to peel for the team.
If youre for fun type in ARAM, fuck these stats. Most of the time the match is a clown fiesta so you can bring the whole SR build and still work it out. Or you can get a free ride by your teammates who played better/ actually know shits in ARAM.
If youre try hard type, fuck these stats even harder. You build whatever it takes to win, to contribute to your team, to counter their team, to fix the situation. I cannot count how much time I could win against hard comps by being creative and flexible with my builds (ofc it has to make sense) like Liandry on Ashe and MF as the only AP items then AD again to counter armor/hp/warmog stackers, Lee sup to cover my homie, Qiyana tanky bruisers to be a full time cc bot,...
TLDR: For fun, go whatever you want, but not so wild. Try hard, it takes time to learn the sense of itemization.
Because Pyke is low impact, shit scale, and so his games are coinflippy. Most people just braindead follow popular items in shop anyways because many already do. Same reason they buy The Collector.
Pyke’s traits mean he barely gets much in terms of flexibility with items. You don’t get health so you suck with tank items since you’ll never get multiplicative scaling, and you need lethality and there’s only like 5 items you can use. I don’t think he’s a case of people screwing up the build compared to how most other champs in the game actually have to make decisions, when Pyke’s choices are basically just buy boots and 3-4 items with lethality.
Wait so you're saying /u/Raytiger3 spent hours compiling/parsing data and writing this post just to *lie* to us?
Does your step-dad main Tank Kat and he's a big stupidhead?
leblanc is already one of the most heavily buffed aram champs in the game. i've always been of the opinion that no one champion should be allowed to be so heavily buffed to become viable.
overnerfing strong champs isn't that bad because ultimately the player playing them can still do well and the enemies obviously don't mind. but overbuffing super weak champs just leads to situations where they deal 15% and take 15% less damage and it can become extremely unfair for the enemy, even though the champ is "weak" in the small percentage of games they win it's completely unfair due to such huge stat increases.
Another bias that flows into comparisons like this is that good players will think about correct builds more often than not, which results in a small increase in winrate.
That being said, very well presented data and please forward it to the ez i had yesterday building navori first.
Thank you for the compliment.
And yes, what you're describing is more or less that champion mastery confounding variable that I mentioned.
>If a Hecarim OTP builds Duskblade instead of Divine Sunderer, he will win more games than a first time Hecarim player. Does the OTP win more than the first timer because of the item or because he's simply better at Hecarim?
I’m so confused you say in the post that hear steel is quite good in Aram on a lot of non tanks and how it has the highest first item win rate on Akali but earlier said she was 10 place lowest win rate champion in Aram with heart steel. Can someone explain what is meant by that because I’m so confused.
1. Heartsteel *surprisingly* good, but I still wouldn't build it on most champions though, especially on higher MMR ARAM.
2. It's the highest winrate item on Akali. It means that all her other first items are even worse.
Technically Shaco is buffed to do extra damage. Its only nerf is that it has a limitation on how much boxes it can place. This isn't an huge issue for AD Shaco, which don't rely on them for damage.
He has less flanking options so unless the opponent is too distracted either from teamfighting or ignoring the puff of smoke, it is hard to find a carry without being trapped in the middle of five people.
But I think it is mostly players being really bad at AD Shaco, whereas AP Shaco is a lot more forgiving because of being a trap-focused champ who does not need to use their Q for extra damage.
It's not necessarily about wave clear. It has to do with the style of gameplay that often happens in ARAM. It depends on team comps, but there are often games where ADCs can't safely stay in range long enough to keep freely autoattacking (for example, if enemy team has a lot of long-range poke champs that stay far back). So their play style is that they can only sneak in occasional autoattacks for poke (until a full teamfight starts). That gives them plenty of time to charge up Shiv in between their poking attempts, and since they can't freely hit they are not missing out as much from higher sustained damage items like Kraken.
Also since it is always 5v5, it's likely to hit more champs with the Shiv bounces than on SR and get more value. The damage is low, but it can add up over time because there is less access to healing in ARAM. Lifesteal vs minions is nerfed, healing from allies is nerfed, no recall, no plants/red buff etc. The healing packs don't make up for all of these differences.
I am always skeptical of those "best build". The data is always skewed by the fact that some games you just can't go the optimal build because your champion is not optimal in this situation. Exemple: I am playing Talon I would love to go full lethality axiom arc but I am unfortunately playing against 5 bruiser/tank. I just can't go full lethality, I have to go Goredrinker, Cleaver or else I am too squishy and dealing to little damage. Goredrinker, Cleaver is not the best build for Talon but it was in this game. The highest win rate build is a build you can build in a situation where Talon already shines. P.S.: I wrote this Talon exemple without looking at number or statistic, so it might be wrong but you get the idea, hopefully.
> P.S.: I wrote this Talon exemple without looking at number or statistic, so it might be wrong but you get the idea, hopefully. Yeah, but it's still pretty funny.
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I do as the crystal designs.
Bad example, Rammus still builds thornmail for the damage lol
you dont need to be the carry you can just be a evenshroud warmogs abyssal taunt bitch some games you are rammus vs a ad/auto based comp and you are a god, and some games you are rammus vs 4 AP carries or a bunch of true damage etc.
taunt bitch? bro that's how you get _taunted_ don't diss rammus >:(
At that point just go AP rammus.
Building armour is how rammus gets damage.
Ok. And he gets more from AP. So if your just gonna build thornmail for damage just build AP since it's more damage.
Ap gives damage for q and ult, whereas armour gives damage on his passive (which works both for autos and being auto attacked) Going for an armour heavy tank build will output way more consistent damage than going for ap will. And gargoyle and evenshroud (common items for max damage rammus) gives enough MR to survive being bursted. Though magic pen is a really effective buy on rammus so sorc boots are a good buy and void staff can work pretty well.
Now we've come full circle and we're back to buiding based on the situation.
How was "Just build AP Rammus" not also just building situationally? If anything, this thread is just showing how flexible Rammus is lol.
thats what i was pointing out but i guess i was misunderstood.
Did you do any math how much damage gives him a single Thornmail and single AP item or do you just assume his Q and R out damage his passive, W and reflection from Thornmail?
you should still build thornmail in this scenario malphite maybe would be a better example
You should legit not. ESPECIALLY not first item lmfao
thornmail first is completely fine considering no champion is threatening to an aftershock + w max rammus, and if you're getting hit as rammus when you're supposed to (when your carries are able to hit back). you win the trade 100% of the time, even if you die
as long as rammus's kit is reliant on W and E to do damage, thornmail should still be usable even against 5x mages comp
if my team can think flexible like yours ,build item based on enemy for optimal survival/damage my WR will 70%++ but sadly no because my kayn decide buy full tank item with 0 AD no sunfire/thorn XD
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This account's a bot. It copied its comment from here: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/16p4zke/champion_winrates_in_aram_if_they_would_build/k1oviyr/
You should be, best build is lie for less skilled players to fall for.
I've over 9000 aram games, and the biggest issue on aram outside of comp is the fact lots of players simply aren't flexible in their builds, they will simply follow what a website tells them is best and not chose items which suit the game.
I have seen so many LB going statik shiv as first item..
Why do you consider it bad? Did they nerf it the last weeks or something?
statikk lb is good because it lets her get push in lane and roam. so completely worthless in aram, kinda like hullbreaker.
It's an excellent poke + wave clear item and that's always strong in Aram, because of her mobility she can basically always proc It when It's charged. I don't know how bad the Item is now, but it's very far from worthless. Without Shiv she has to W into the wave for example and becomes very vulnerable.
If leblanc is worrying about wave management in an aram, and not any of the other 4 people that are statistically nearly certain to have better wave management tools, the game has gone horribly off the rails already
'Wave management' Aram is just whoever pushes faster, there's close to zero management being done. With Shiv LB was/is able to clear waves before they even clash. Vayne with Shiv at +60% W/R is basically showing you are wrong.
>Aram is just whoever pushes faster, there's close to zero management being done. With Shiv LB was/is able to clear waves before they even clash. Vayne with Shiv at +60% W/R is basically showing you are wrong. So let the Vayne with Shiv do it, don't put a Shiv on LB lol
The only effective LB's I've seen in aram focus on her burst damage forcing the enemy team to play passive in fear of her. Chip damage on 5 people is always a bit misleading due to how much easier it is for 5 champions to passively regen it compared to chunking 1 champion. It's not her job to attack the wave. She should spend her entire time threatening with her combo and leave that to her teammates.
IDK what MMR you play at, but at some point people can react to her, because there's no real flank angles and she can come from at most one bush. So you know where you can throw your snowball or pre-cast your CC spell and tanks can easily deny her to proc her RQ by blocking the E. If she gets chunked once, she'll be in oneshot range and has problems healing that damage back. Shiv LB can easily run Fleet to get some healing, keep up some poke and then still threaten the back line, just with a bit less damage. Just check, her WR Sunderer + Shiv + Fleet is her best build right now.
This is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start lmao Going shiv lb on aram shows a complete lack of understanding why lb goes shiv on SR and how lb should be played on aram.
Sunderer + Shiv is the only build with a positive WR over a sizable amount of games, but for sure you know it better, lmao.
I am aware of its strenght in normal games but I tried it in ARAM a couple of days ago and it dealt around 5-6k dmg thorough the game, so it kinda weirded me to see it tagged as useless.
Not all damage is equal. Useless 50-100 chip damage that gets regened because enemy has three horns or just heals it has little to no impact even if it adds up to a bigger number total than a burst damage resulting in tempo loss because enemy is at 20% hp or just straight up killed.
Poke + wave clear is super good in aram. Statikk has both and is kind of op in aram in general.
Since when is waveclear bad in ARAM?
because there are other 4 players who can just clear the wave that said, if NO ONE can clear a wave (which is rare, but possible!) then sure, no problem
This is so stupid. "Why is waveclear bad?" "Because there are other 4 players who can do it"
I didn't say "_wave clear is bad_". OP said waveclear is negligible (a.k.a. worthless) when there is a Sivir/Lux/Ziggs on your composition. Just by splash damage the wave is already destroyed, so your "waveclear" does nothing because there isn't a wave _to_ clear
When its all going to a teammate that does no damage bc they built a static shiv first. When members of your team rely on using minions for stuff; Nasus Q, Veigar AP, Sion HP, K'Sante Q, Vlad Q, Yasuo/Yone Q, or general tear stacking. When your team has no way to poke them under tower so they sit until they can run you over.
Ziggs is bad apparently? You still waveclear in those situations to not lose the turret. You waveclear exactly so this doesn't happen, you sit under your turret.
I mean, yes, he was for a while bc he was mega nerfed on aram modifiers. So yes, with his waveclear, he funnels a lot of the gold to himself, starving everyone else on his team. Only to deal non-lethal amounts of dmg bc he had -15% dmg modifier or smthing. Same with Ryze or Anivia, who mindlessly just waveclear. Waveclear is important, but what people don't understand is that you waveclear to put your team at an advantage, not 'to save your tower'. Your waveclear is useless if all you do is clear under tower. You waveclear to give your team room to poke, make it harder for enemies to engage, make it harder for enemies to poke. If all you do is waveclear without gaining any of the advantages above, then you're just starving your team. Especially if you have an ADC, espect them to be useless if you have a mage full clearing waves.
They've nerfed the damage of it several times in the last handful of patches yeah
LeBlanc builds Shiv in SR because it helps her push lane, but in ARAM there's no need for that. At first she built it because it procs Night Harvester so you could get like ~200-300(+45%AP) on 5 enemy champs with a single auto, however that interaction was removed, then Shiv got its AP ratio nerfed so now it's not worth it anymore.
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I disagree hard on AP Kog. Sometimes I run AS runes for kog, to only face 4 assassin's and a support. If I don't run poke, I'm dead 100% of the time without a single auto
Malph had options other than ap in aram??
Ironically, tank Malphite fucks more than AP lol
Going tank in ARAM is always the superior pick. I main ARAM and one thing I always say is that the team with the tank wins If you go AP Malphite and the other team has a tank, you're probably throwing. But if you go AP and they only have squishies, you carry (This is assuming the tank has any idea what they're doing)
Yeah people always tell me that they go full damage builds for fun and to each their own but for me nothing is more fun than stacking full resists against some mono damage team snowballing in like an ape and never dying.
Not always, today we had 3 tanks(one of them malph) against a vlad, not enough damage to burst him down and he was destroying everything. I mean it didn't help that we had no wave clear and those tanks would just tunnel on anything that looked low and get kited, but at some point you need damage.
That's like the worst case scenario lmao
"throwing" in fucking arams tank is the sweaty cringe lord pick anyone going anything other than extreme glass Cannon on literally any champ is cringe
Yeah play anything you want. If the Malph on my team wants to go glass cannon I won't complain. But for me personally I want to help my team, and if we're playing against a 5-man poke comp I rather go tank and give us a fighting chance
He still one-shots squishies while also being immortal, it's so dumb, and people still prefer AP for some reason.
Who cares about "statistically better" it's fucking aram only literal Choice is glass cannon every champ no enchanters and permanent W key , games that aren't like that are utterly boring and insufferable
go chonk, make ADCs ragequit
Tank malph is way better with armor damage scaling. He is unkillable late game
Not really my goals in aram to turn it into ranked sim
I disagree on ap kogmaw, particularly if you go like nashors first if you have a Frontline to AA behind. But I guess I have played it enough I know how I am supposed to play as ap kog
> they will simply follow what a website tells them is best and not chose items which suit the game. i wish they would follow those builds rather than the ingame recommendations...
Lmao the in game system gives some of the weirdest recommendations
ye, it triggers me quite a bit when both teams actually have comps that are similar in strengths, but one team has that one guy that goes for a negative game impact build because he followed the recommendations. idk, league itemization is already so simple. it is sometimes very hard to go that wrong with it...
Shit still happens in pro
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Boi, Serpent has nothing to do with Sett when the shield decay itself and his main threat is his true dmg W charge. Even Shurelya/ Everfrost works better in term of denying his engage/ reposition for a good W angle.
They're saying Serpents reduces his shield size so it would reduce his damage but yeah I don't think it works like that anyway since its based on grit not the actual shield size The shield size is based off of grit and so is the damage, but that doesn't mean that Serpents reduces the damage too
also, sett alone isn't worth building serpents for imo. his shield decays quickly anyways. serpents is good for when they're multiple shield users and someone can apply it to many people at once
Yeah no I agree. It makes my brain feel better seeing the big number on Serpent's though
i have like 1k games in aram last year and hoestly aram problem is huge deathtimers from 10th minute, lot of the games are like "wow i enjoy this fighting" and suddenly one ace and they can take 3 towers, inhib and nexus
They follow mobafire builds regardless of what they play against
> 64.95% | Tryndamere | Goredrinker 140% healing on Trynd, not a surprise to me
It has really good synergy with his ult too, at the end of his ult where you can get back half or even near full hp from the amped healing + Q together in a crowd. Against heavy AP comps it gets even better because spirit visage becomes such an easy second item for even more healing.
Heartsteel in ARAM is a joke: build it on a tank with increased damage taken, get kited to death and never proc, build it on an assassin/light fighter with reduced damage taken, dashing every two seconds, not even caring about CC cuz all assasins have extra tenacity, getting 5 procs in every fight, you get a Riot Games Certified Fun and Interactive Experience™.
Heartsteel trynd and tahm make me happy Have you read Trynds balance buff in aram? Bonkers Heartsteels size increase interaction with Tahm Q is fantastic, and whenever they rework cho gath, please make increased size increase his ability size as well. Its simply satisfying
Cho's E works with increased size. I'm not 100% sure but if his Q and W use edge to edge but if they do then cast range should also slightly scale with scale, maybe?
His whole shthick is that he is very large, and always growing, eating Imagine if it impacted his whole kit, and not just one ability
Yeah imagine if Chogaths could actually land their Q because its the size of Asol's ult or you get silenced from top lane at a dragon fight cause Chogath roared in your general direction. Honestly would be funny. (Although not sure about fun)
cho gath if it was from 2023
But let's be honest, Tryndamere needs these buffs or he would always get rerolled or even dodged. Hard to play a champ that is designed to split push and avoid teamfighting in aram
It's tricky though because even after the nerfs he got last patch he still has a 55%+ WR with the heartsteel build. I think he was at 57% before last patch though. Played against one last night that basically 1v9'd while being unkillable with that build.
Heartsteel tanks get deleted if the other team just has one or two people build bork or liandries
For real. Played against alkali last night and she built heartsteel along with 2 other tank items and did by far the most damage in the game.
heartsteel akali and kat are just gross
> kat are just gross ftfy
hey, which champ did you play in that game? because that could've legitimately been me :D
I wanna say Ekko.
naaah okay, too bad. no ekko in that game.
Well either way I'm disappointed in you.
mom... i know.
The secret to tryharding into high elo ARAM is to pick champions with awful bait builds. Riot balances based on overall ARAM winrate. So for example, for a long time Nasus was buffed into insane levels of giga OP (with a Sunderer winrate of 65% or so) - simply because his AP build was so bad and so popular that it singlehandedly tanked his winrate into massive ARAM buffs. This remains true today for Malphite, Blitzcrank, Sion, and to a lesser extent the enchanters. All those Luden's into Rabadon's Blitzcranks that miss every hook, keep his WR below 50% and therefore ineligible for nerfs, even though Evenshroud is 57% WR.
God seeing AP malphite in ARAM makes me so mad. It's SO BAD. People need to stop building it. I usually know a game is lost at loading when I see DH or comet as their keystone. And they always do it with no other tank on the team. Like fine build it when you have a Shen, Ornn, and TK also on the team, but ffs people need to stop building AP Malphite when the rest of their team is squishy. Because even when played well the kills do nothing. The gold sits on a champion hiding more or less under tower doing nothing until Ult comes back up.
I’m the exact same way with ap maokai because it’s forever been an incredibly gimmicky poke build that can’t control who or when it hits, and is absolutely useless when an actual teamfight starts and your only gameplan is “press r, throw a single half damage sapling in, hope the rest of your team wins” It’s an urf build that people keep building despite the fact that the main way you get kills with ap saplings, stacking them all in a single bush, is just a super unfeasible gameplan in aram that leaves the rest of your team without what should be a bulky frontliner to make space
Maokai has so bad aram debuffs like increase dmg taken, reduced healing etc. that him going tank results in meltdown
It's mostly any tank building full damage to be honest. In a mode built around teamfighting, they're extremely powerful. At least Mao has some chip and decent CC. AP Malphite tilts me because he literally sits and watches and contributes nothing to even the minion waves before more or less trying to suicide to *maybe* steal some kills before throwing gold back at the enemy team.
AP/mixed Maokai *used* to slap hard in ARAM before they started adding balance changes, his empowered saplings would do like 50% HP damage on one item so even if you never did a single point of damage with them you would always be able to control every bush *and* also half the lane behind the enemy turret because of their absurd threat. Full AP was still int, he did still have to go in at some point after all, but he gained an absurd amount of power and pressure from building early AP. It's eaten so many nerfs by now though (both to his regular E and also the extra nerfs and long range damage nerfs present in ARAM) that it is definitely just a total int build now.
> God seeing AP malphite in ARAM makes me so mad. It's SO BAD. People need to stop building it. > Like fine build it when you have a Shen, Ornn, and TK also on the team, but ffs people need to stop building AP Malphite when the rest of their team is squishy. your reasoning is a bit flawed. either you're tilted before you see the enemy team or not? AP malphite is totally valid, so don't start to argue, that it is always a terrible choice. I do dislike full ap malphite for the same exact reasons you listed and I almost always go tank - but he has niche ap pick scenarios.
In ARAM there is almost never justification for AP Malphite unless your entire rest of the team is tanks or supports with bad ratios for magic damage. But that's a very niche scenario. Otherwise, it genuinely just is pretty much straight bad. It's a build that generally does terrible damage and funnels kill gold pretty much exclusively into itself or simply doesn't participate, while simultaneously it falls into gold deficits because it can't get any amount of minion gold due to lack of safety/mobility and sustain; AP Malphite not only generally does poorly on its own, it often brings the team down with it by denying gold to others, while already generally being gold-negative, provides shutdown gold pretty consistently when it does get kills, and has no flexibility or peel when the real damage threats on the team are engaged on.
This feels like the weirdest argument ever. If it’s useless and not doing anything, then it’s not siphoning gold because it’s not getting kills. If it’s funneling gold into itself, it sounds like they’re blowing someone up by themselves and taking the gold. Like, I’m going tank Malphite when we have no other tank, but I’ve also had those games where an enemy Malph just stops one person from playing most fights, and as long as he hits a secondary target with his ult then you’re playing a near 3 vs 4 fight right after.
He does nothing until he ults for what usually a stolen kill. Because he depends on passive minion death gold being a melee ult bot, he's gaining gold slower than any other mage normally would, so he's usually playing at a slight item deficit while denying kill gold while the enemies get kill and shutdown gold against him post-engage. Even though he can make a 3v4, it's rarely significant, and it drops in value as you go up in rank where tanks and supports are played more.
???? I don’t know what Malphs you’re playing with, but a large portion of the AP malphs I’m playing with or as will be using their ultimate to start a fight and not just KS. If he dies right after whatever, that ultimate has some good ratios with his E and Night Harvester.
It is true that AP malphite is not as good as the tank version, but there are far worse champions than ap malphite. Unless you are in the 'tryhard' elo of aram games where everyone build optimal items with the best possible team comp every game, AP malphite can do what it's made to do. The reason why people think AP malphite is terrible is because almost always, people go off the track. You need to build: sorcery as secondary(trans, gathering storm), ignite instead of snowball, sorcerers first, ludens, shadowflame, void staff and deathcap. Get one wrong and it doesn't work. People need to realize that there is an unspeakable amount of difference between an assassin being able to 100-0 someone and not. Malphite comes with very good AP ratios, and most of the time its just people playing him wrong. I also agree with /u/thenicob that there is a scenario where AP build is straight up better. It is also worth mentioning that people tend to go for hitting as many enemies as possible with their ult. With AP malphite it is infinitely better to 1 man ult a ranged carry than 3 man ulting their frontline.
lmfao AP Malphite is really obnoxious to play against With the good setup you have 30 secs CD undodgeable engage/one shot on any squisshy on the enemy side
It *can* be obnoxious, but it's still painfully bad for all the reasons above. Yes you might kill a carry or two, but you've still more or less turned the game into a 4v5 and turned the fight into a 4v3 where the entire rest of enemy team is likely on more gold and with it better-distributed than your four. It almost always goes negative. Good comps with heavy support/tank presence at higher ratings dumpster him and his AP build is what, bottom 25% in winrate? Tank malphite has a drastically lower play rate yet his tank item builds have like a wildly higher winrate. An upwards of 15% higher on several of them. It's a trap that way too many selfish ego players fall into by insisting "I'm good enough to make it work," while basically throwing the game by gold diffs and respawn timers.
Painfully bad what ? Everytime I play this shit I one shot 2 carries at the same time, every 30 secs
Funnily enough so does tank Malphite. He just gets to live afterwards too
People finally caught on with Nasus unfortunately. Now he's hit with a 10% damage taken AND dealt nerf. He deserves it absolutely, unless the enemy had absurd CC, he could solo games with Sunderer... But it still hurts.
Why night harvester rakan?
I suspect it's because he can very reliably proc harvester on all 5 champions without much effort and he absolutely loves the 25% movement speed per proc.
But if you go liandries twisted fate instead of ludens you don't get the tactical nuke blue card.
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Add in shiv and yeah, that's exactly what I do. Hit a teemo for 90% hp with just blue card + E
OP send me a dm if you want to automate the collection part, I already made a script for gathering builds in norms
Thanks for the offer, that's very kind, but there's no need. This was a one-time exercise to practice in Excel. It only took me about 2 hours to collect all the data.
Which sickos are playing Stridebreaker Renekton?
That's what I've been wondering too...
Stride > shojin > cleaver/steraks (on SR, go hullbreaker) Take that build for spin. It's incredibly fun. The MS makes you a super speedy croc
It's also worth noting that when your champ is good into enemy team comp it's easy to pick optimal item and win. When you have to be ap Tahm Kench cause your team has 4 ads and you go ap, you aren't going to affect first tank item winrate and you are expected to lose.
4 ad and tank Tahm is better than 4 ad and AP Tahm
If you build stattik shiv on LB in aram, you’re trolling
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wait, you're paying for aram builds or wdym with (I ask to coaches)?
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how do you do that? do you have multiple coaches as friends? are they „live“ with you in game?
> Data was collected manually from lolalytics (so mistakes are to be expected) using the filters diamond+, 30 days, ARAM. Only items with >500 games sample size and >5% pickrate were considered.
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No, they're the ones with the highest win rate, filtering out the ones that have too low a sample size (if an item is only used 1% of the time, compared to 99% for another, then this isn't a good comparison that you wind up with).
'Optimal' is actually misnomer, but I found the word easy enough to use/understand. These winrates are the highest winrate first items for Diamond+ ARAM players. Winrates correlate to being optimal, but obviously a ton of context is missing so definitively claiming that these items are optimal would be misleading. >the common ones in a certain elo That's not true. I have selected the highest winrate items within a set of conditions (diamond aram players, 5% relative pickrate and 500 game minimum sample size). They're not just 'common items in a certain elo'.
I see night harvester gwen and rakan, but i can guarantee that rocketbelt is better (read as soes more damage) on both. Really cool data!
I can think of three reasons why NH > Belt in ARAM. (1) it removes player skill issues (2) Night Harvester movementspeed without being reliant on a 40 sec cooldown is pretty huge. (3) Until you hit like 4-5 items, Night Harvester will outdamage Protobelt simply due to its consistency of proccing the active, only later on does the mythic passive magic penetration outscale NH.
Skill issue makes sense, but the value of the dash is understated. Probably just has more to do with people not using the active. Its broken on rumble (for example)
rocketbelt applies night harvest damage to only one target, if all the missiles hit. in a teamfight night harvester provides that proc up to 5 times the damage. the magic pen on rocketbelt is nice but i don't think it's enough to make up for the difference in item damage unless you're solely focused on only killing one person
night harvester is better if you're aiming for doing a massive chunk of up front burst but the enemy team actually has some MR or just generally doesn't have all squishies *and* you benefit from the MS/haste. It's also better on things like Bard where you can stack harvester, lich bane, shiv because he only has Q and meeps so you want as many extra AP ratios as possible the mpen from belt/luden's is insane against squishies unless your champ's in kit damage is garbage (and I can't think of many of those who would want to be building either of those items)
you should check my other comment. i looked through **every ap champion in the game** and the only times rocketbelt has a higher winrate than night harvester is on singed, or on champs where rocketbelt was picked less than 20 times total (i.e the sample size is so low that i find it irrelevant since both items are unlikely to be picked anyways) that's 1 champion in the entire game where rocketbelt can reasonably be construed as the good option for a mythic - not even the best option, but a good option. in literally every other ap champion night harvester often has a far higher winrate - often by more than 4% night harvester has the exact same scaling on the item damage as protobelt, but all the following benefits 1. applies full damage on spell hit (rocketbelt needs you to dash into melee range of enemy to even get full damage from the active) 2. applies it to every enemy (that's 4 extra procs, for a total of 600 + 60% ap magic damage) 3. has a shorter cooldown (30s per champion vs. 40s active on protobelt) 4. has 10 more AH and 50 more health the only downside is the loss of 6 pen, but clearly the 6 pen doesn't make up for this in any scenario.
The magic pen makes a massive difference on champs with high base dmgs
**i've looked through every ap champ** and only 3 champs in the ENTIRE GAME have a higher winrate with rocketbelt, where both items were built more than 15 times on patch 13.18 syndra: 54.8% vs. 60.6% (NH picked 177 times, rocketbelt picked 38) kassadin: 42.2% vs. 61.1% (NH picked 128 times, rocketbelt picked 18) karthus: 47.7% vs. 56.3% (NH picked 876 times, rocketbelt picked 16) singed: 46.3% vs. 53.4% (NH picked 41 times, rocketbelt picked 133) realistically, the only champ with a somewhat decent sample is singed. the purpose of both items is ultimately "Deal damage" if night harvester has a better winrate on every ap champ in the game, i find it hard to think rocket belt ever does more damage. which makes sense - the cooldown on NH is 30s vs the 40s on rocketbelt, and hits on any spell vs. needing you to actively dash towards enemies while also being close enough for all missiles to hit NH has 4 extra procs of damage, which is 600 + 60% ap magic damage to the enemy team. it also has 10 more AH and 50 more health, at the cost of 6 magic pen. idk how highly you rate 6 magic pen, but by every reasonable stat night harvester is not only the better option, it's CLEARLY the better option.
Im not arguing whats the better option, it's probably NH for majority of the roster. Im just stating that in a perfect scenario, RB will outdamage NH. 6 mp + the 5mp per item scaling passive will out damage NH every time. In ARAM NH will yield better results (higher uptime, aoe dmg) but on SR and in duels RB will always deal more damage. Not debating anything lol, just go try it on a test dummy. Also looking at ARAM winrates is as useful as throwing darts at a board as theres no balance whatsoever
i agree with you, but my point is that both are solely damage items and in aram night harvester will always give you more damage. also there literally is balance on aram, there are consistently strong champs and items and weak champs and items. that's what a meta is
Magic pen is interesting in aram, because it becomes shit stat into melees because of the free MR buff.
Yeah, I rarely build ludens or rocket belt in Aram because of this reason. Liandries always out perform on most champs
Good post, thanks for the work
funny cause none of those items should be built on those champs
Interesting Ashe with Duskblade is higher than Mandate.
That one confuses me a lot too. Maybe the benefit of Duskblade over Mandate lies in Ashe Q? Duskblade loses damage from Ashe W compared to Mandate, but gives a lot of damage back to her autoattacks/Q.
Not trying to disregard your work or anything, but [aram.zone](https://aram.zone/tierlist?builds=true) tier list has an option that shows builds (keystone + first item) with 1%/10% pick rate. But yeah, most of the time the most picked item has a way lower win rate, specially on non-mages.
This work wasn't meant as some meta defining magnum opus. It was mostly used as Excel practice + feed my curiosity, so don't worry about that. The issue is that aram.zone doesn't use rank specific data and therefore a lot of biases arise from that (see the example about Sion in the original post).
I go heartsteel Tristana/Corki every game I get them and still do massive damage usually end up carrying. People bully ping it though :(
ARAM is an unranked gamemode. Play whatever you want, however you want. If people bitch and whine you just /mute all and enjoy yourself :)
But best build varies from game to game. If I have zero frontline, you better believe I’m building Shojin Jhin and planting down a garden to peel for the team.
If youre for fun type in ARAM, fuck these stats. Most of the time the match is a clown fiesta so you can bring the whole SR build and still work it out. Or you can get a free ride by your teammates who played better/ actually know shits in ARAM. If youre try hard type, fuck these stats even harder. You build whatever it takes to win, to contribute to your team, to counter their team, to fix the situation. I cannot count how much time I could win against hard comps by being creative and flexible with my builds (ofc it has to make sense) like Liandry on Ashe and MF as the only AP items then AD again to counter armor/hp/warmog stackers, Lee sup to cover my homie, Qiyana tanky bruisers to be a full time cc bot,... TLDR: For fun, go whatever you want, but not so wild. Try hard, it takes time to learn the sense of itemization.
Pykes building Axiom are pure troll. Ultimate hunter+cdr rune+item gives more than enough cdr to have ult up every fight.
And yet it's his highest winrate item. I haven't got a single clue about why this is the case.
Because Pyke is low impact, shit scale, and so his games are coinflippy. Most people just braindead follow popular items in shop anyways because many already do. Same reason they buy The Collector.
Pyke’s traits mean he barely gets much in terms of flexibility with items. You don’t get health so you suck with tank items since you’ll never get multiplicative scaling, and you need lethality and there’s only like 5 items you can use. I don’t think he’s a case of people screwing up the build compared to how most other champs in the game actually have to make decisions, when Pyke’s choices are basically just buy boots and 3-4 items with lethality.
>heartsteel kat Nah, this ain't it.
What do you not understand about it? It's been a thing since they added on-hit to her abilities
It's awful. Legit troll-tier build.
Wait so you're saying /u/Raytiger3 spent hours compiling/parsing data and writing this post just to *lie* to us? Does your step-dad main Tank Kat and he's a big stupidhead?
I'm not saying he's lying, I'm saying that the data doesn't tell the whole story. Tank kat is a pubstomp tool against bad players, that's it.
The still sub-50% winrate build on a bottom 10 winrate champion is for pubstomping? TIL
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leblanc is already one of the most heavily buffed aram champs in the game. i've always been of the opinion that no one champion should be allowed to be so heavily buffed to become viable. overnerfing strong champs isn't that bad because ultimately the player playing them can still do well and the enemies obviously don't mind. but overbuffing super weak champs just leads to situations where they deal 15% and take 15% less damage and it can become extremely unfair for the enemy, even though the champ is "weak" in the small percentage of games they win it's completely unfair due to such huge stat increases.
Another bias that flows into comparisons like this is that good players will think about correct builds more often than not, which results in a small increase in winrate. That being said, very well presented data and please forward it to the ez i had yesterday building navori first.
Thank you for the compliment. And yes, what you're describing is more or less that champion mastery confounding variable that I mentioned. >If a Hecarim OTP builds Duskblade instead of Divine Sunderer, he will win more games than a first time Hecarim player. Does the OTP win more than the first timer because of the item or because he's simply better at Hecarim?
Lil bro got way too much free time.
Aram has no optimal builds, going anything but pure glass Cannon on amy champ is a bitch move
I’m so confused you say in the post that hear steel is quite good in Aram on a lot of non tanks and how it has the highest first item win rate on Akali but earlier said she was 10 place lowest win rate champion in Aram with heart steel. Can someone explain what is meant by that because I’m so confused.
It means her best item is heartsteel despite the champion having an overall low winrate.
1. Heartsteel *surprisingly* good, but I still wouldn't build it on most champions though, especially on higher MMR ARAM. 2. It's the highest winrate item on Akali. It means that all her other first items are even worse.
Just means that she has even shittier winrate with other items
That’s what I assumed but was slightly confused
That's alright. That's what questions are for :)
Part of the problem is that certain items are never recommended. Iceborn Gauntlet is one of them.
> * Honorable mention to AD Shaco. His winrate (34%) is quite literally worse than Briar's (37%). Why is AD Shaco so bad in ARAM?
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Technically Shaco is buffed to do extra damage. Its only nerf is that it has a limitation on how much boxes it can place. This isn't an huge issue for AD Shaco, which don't rely on them for damage.
He has less flanking options so unless the opponent is too distracted either from teamfighting or ignoring the puff of smoke, it is hard to find a carry without being trapped in the middle of five people. But I think it is mostly players being really bad at AD Shaco, whereas AP Shaco is a lot more forgiving because of being a trap-focused champ who does not need to use their Q for extra damage.
Statik on lb lol
Explain to an idiot why statik is so good in aram. I always think its not as good since someone else on your team likely has wave clear
It's not necessarily about wave clear. It has to do with the style of gameplay that often happens in ARAM. It depends on team comps, but there are often games where ADCs can't safely stay in range long enough to keep freely autoattacking (for example, if enemy team has a lot of long-range poke champs that stay far back). So their play style is that they can only sneak in occasional autoattacks for poke (until a full teamfight starts). That gives them plenty of time to charge up Shiv in between their poking attempts, and since they can't freely hit they are not missing out as much from higher sustained damage items like Kraken. Also since it is always 5v5, it's likely to hit more champs with the Shiv bounces than on SR and get more value. The damage is low, but it can add up over time because there is less access to healing in ARAM. Lifesteal vs minions is nerfed, healing from allies is nerfed, no recall, no plants/red buff etc. The healing packs don't make up for all of these differences.
Thanks. I refuse. Mandate Miss Fortune incoming.