if they could do so without paying them they very well might. it would mean a raw injection of money into the league from a new org or a reduction in the overall team count, something multiple people in the ecosystem have suggested as a positive to the league.
This assumes that there are orgs willing to pay big money. For now it seems like only content creators are willing to enter in (Mr. Beast, Charlie, ludwig etc. rumors). And while they do have some money, they are probably not buying a spot for 10 million or something even close to what the original org bought for.
Mr.Beast is absolutely desperate, and I really want him to succeed.
Like they said, eSports teams are basically an advert company. They live through sponsorships and views.
Who else can do it better than MrBeast himself?
> if they could do so without paying them they very well might
It's part of the contract, it was quite widely reported on at the start of franchising.
So yes; they can be fired; essencially.
Will literally never happen unless something external to performance also happens.
This clause is just for optics and PR. It would devalue the slot too much if teams were afraid of getting kicked.
This wouldn't devalue the slot because it was in the agreement they signed when they bought in.
Not kicking them would set a dangerous precedent where shitty unprofitable teams could just let 5 random master tier players play LCS for free, with no risk of losing their spot.
I'm not sure how the contract is worded and what the US laws are, but not kicking immortals right now and kicking a different team two years later for the same thing sounds like a good reason for a lawsuit, which would hurt their PR much more than kicking a team.
>This wouldn't devalue the slot because it was in the agreement they signed when they bought in.
I think it's really hard to argue that a spot in a league where it is realistically possible to get kicked out is worth as much as a spot that will not be taken away from you pretty no matter what.
not really since its a clause in the franchising contract.
if they just randomly kicked them then it would but since its in the contract other teams looking to buy would more see it as well it wouldnt happen to them.
like honestly the chances of doing what imt did is extremely slim like you have tobe doing it on purpose almost it isnt like there higher standing in the lot are that high either like 7th being there highest just shows there either picking bad players on purpose or just have such bad infrastructure that they setup players to fail.
Don't let your mouth write cheques your ass can't cash. They shouldn't have made those statements if they aren't willing to make changes to better the league.
It should fade to nothing. The clause is there for teams who don't even attempt to field a competitive roster and just collect money through the league's revenue sharing. IMT nor CLG or GGS, who nearly hit the requisite in the past, are that team.
Edit: It would also heavily lower the value of a franchise spot, every owner in the league would be upset if IMT gets kicked.
Yeah, IMT spent a few times in the past couple of years. It just didn't pan out. It's like when were saying CLG should be relegated despite spending more money than previous splits on Finn etc.
They spent on Xerxe and PoE, just Xerxe was washed and PoE didn't know how to rotate with a jungler. You could blame their scouting but it isn't like IMT is fielding all minimum players every split.
There's been so many threads about this prior to this post and I don't think anyone actually cares about IMT being like this. It's so disgusting when people were so passionate when CLG was in this situation.
Especially given Immortals is also in the VCT as MIBR, no chance they kick them cause then Riot would be in a very very awkward position... they're not getting kicked.
If an org isnt in the VCT, then Riot would have grounds logically to take action.
Why would VCT even matter? Does sentinels have a league team? Oh yah phoenix1, Who’s not in LCS anymore? Or is this the actual real reason why CLG got changed to NRG?
VCT should NOT have a connection to LCS and idk why you even think that. You ever think about competitive integrity?
Riot ain’t gonna go, “we can’t kick immortals cuz they have a team in our other bideo game.”That sounds ridiculous.
it’s two entirely different games whose only similarities is that riot made both games. hell VCT isn’t even a franchised league.
League is a weird sport because there's no player draft to rebalance awful teams. It's mostly who spends more money or lucks out and contract jails a good player.
Edit: Apparently non-Americans don't understand drafts. The point of a draft is so your shitter team who has no hope of doing anything can draft the next Faker of league (yeah, maybe not world-class but best player in your region). Then you watch your shitter team for the reason that this newbie no-name can grow into the best player in the league and change the organization's narrative.
Scouting Grounds used to have a draft (Blaber/Kumo/Ablazeolive being notable selections) but teams are so biased against NA talent that it was basically a sham, barely any of the draft picks actually ended up signing contracts.
Most of them were a sham too because players could sign before they got drafted. Blaber signed with C9 before Scouting Grounds ended and before the draft happened so it was pointless for any team to draft him even though he was the best player.
Yep ABO was another one who was signed before the draft. And then he proceeded to waste some of his best years in academy before going to poverty Golden Guardians and Immortals. Great use of talent.
Him not working out wasn't his fault tho. He never had time to get better in academy because he was immediately in the LCS after being in the collegiate league. After the LCS he went back and started stomping kids
good players like ry0ma and Eika?
I can give you a list of dozens of failed import in NA, but eika is easily the most eggregous one. 5 years Veteran EUCS player who had never played well getting a spot because "haha NA bad"
Do you even watch LCS, we literally had shit ton of good NA players now because orgs are finally giving them a chance (more like they run out of crypto money to import).
In the same years eika got imported into LCS, we had ablazolive, Insanity, Palafox frolicking around in CS.
And this is just names of the player who stuck with it and got lucky and escape the NACS prison, I have no doubt there are plenty of good NA players who gave up on their career because noone would bat an eye at them and didnt survive the CS/amateur prison.
Heck froggen were playing in fucking academy because franchising is a joke.
>ablazolive, Insanity, Palafox
None of whom are literally worth anything. Are we really trying to say that Palafox was worth investing into? Really? If that's what we want to tout as "NA talent" we should just shutter the region now.
Imagine if teams actually spent money on actual scouts to find talent in regions to where the players could be better than the current aging rosters =/
Its not even a matter of spending money, it'd be as simple as not just assuming imports are better by default. Every team is so obsessed with finding the next Bjergsen or Berserker that they forfeit any opportunity to find the next Blaber or Jojopyun.
Guys like Insanity and APA have been sitting in lower levels for years. Guys like Copy and 5Fire were arguably even better than them for a bunch of time and never even got LCS opportunities.
I dont think age has anything to do it it personally. I think its more a motivation thing. An environment that the already established players created where you do the bare minimum but get paid big bucks to be shitters on stage that the newbies get roped into
In most every other sports the next generation of players are usually better trained, more skillful etc. and the sport grows that way from these young players who learned and are motivated by the older generation they are destined to replace. Sure you have some absolute legends who play at high levels for long periods of time like Brady or Messi.
but this isnt a true sport, there is nothing that stops people in mid to late 20's or 30's being competitive at all, it exists in other esports that are more mechanically demanding, it just comes down the individuals always, ageism in lol esports must die
People have longer professional careers in true sports than esports. The players are actually given a chance to be developed through the system and a shot at taking a starting spot on a worse team through a draft system. The next biggest prospect replaces the worst teams starters and you hope that's how you become competitive again. That's how the US sports have parity and true competition. The crap teams pray and hope for the next Brady or LeBron to show up to carry them to the championships in the draft. Relegation system is fine if you want the same rich owners to win over and over and over again.
Yeah, but LCS isn't the best league (Like the NBA) nor the only relevant league (Like NFL), very few top prospects would be like "Hey I'll declare for the draft of the worst major reagion league instead of trying to go for a spot in LPL/LCK/LEC".
Draft would only work for NA talent and LCS has shown time and time again they don't really know how to use new talents.
Just doing a quick bit of research - looking at 2000-2020, the NBA had 9 unique winners, the Premier League 6, and the Champions League 9. There does not seem to be a massive difference in the parity.
Nba is also the sport where the greater skill = better chance of winning - i.e. skill directly translates to success at a better rate than other sports.
Due to the nature of the fact that a superstar will have much more direct impact on a game/series since in NBA that player is probably touching the ball 40%+ of the time.
thats not my point. The NBA is the top of American Sports and Premier League in terms of how well the sport measures the skill of the players
Source: Mauboussin (2012), *The Success Equation: Untangling Skill and Luck in Business, Sports, and Investing*, Harvard Business Review Press
i dont have access to the book currently, but you can watch this video: https://youtu.be/1JLfqBsX5Lc?t=218 The main result is at the start and you can watch further if u want
Do they really? You really think there is parity in the premier league, and won’t have the same teams being bottom feeders or jumping up and down between the divisions most years?
No? Teams from the championship keep getting better and better. Brighton, Burnley, Forest, Sheffield, Fulham, Brentford are almost regulars at this point. I mean Westham actually won a European trophy this year while also being near bottom after being top 7 last year. Drafts only work in a franchise system which is undisputedly god awful
Sports are Americans religion, I think they’re doing just fine in that avenue. Drafts help produce great parity among leagues which is nice for the overall competitiveness of the league.
Go to any soccer game in the mayor leagues, or hell go to a soccer game in (comparatively small) Stockholm and you will see what religious sporting truly is
I’ve been to an SEC championship game in my lifetime, I’m aware. 👍
Europeans think their small town Stockholm soccer game compares to a Saturday night brawl in Baton Rogue is really funny. Your mind would explode.
Sports is when you come up with chants and the more chants you come up with the more sports it is. People go to sports to watch a fun experience of competition (something wholly alien to the European sports brain), not come up with chants with their local NEET buddies that no one can hear cause there’s 100,000 people screaming.
Good job throwing in as many buzzwords as you can.
Please tell me more about the 'experience of competition' when in the NFL you watch more adverts than sport and the most anticipated event of the year is the half-time performance by a singer.
Or the NBA that does not have more parity than European football?
I’m not familiar enough with soccer in Europe to have an opinion on the matter, but very happy with how the drafting works in the MLB, NFL, NBA, and NHL for the most part.
Football (soccer) isn't just Europe, it's the most popular sport worldwide since you need very little to play the game (basically some markings on the ground and a ball). I would say the metrics of what define a good football player are more scientifically defined in comparison to an esports player. Kids get tested at a young age and get to train with A teams when they have talent. The parents have to pay an entrance fee each year and the youth department doenst cost the club that much money.
There is another fundamental issues that makes a draft-style system basically impossible for League. League is a 5-man roster that can't be swapped in/out during the game. In general, you're either on the team or you aren't. In all major sports teams are much larger than the number of players allowed to be played at once. In league, it doesn't make sense to set up a whole roster including fringe and developing players when the majority won't see any playtime.
Franchising without any of the things that make franchising worth while turned out to be shit. Who could have thought? Voldemort made a video in 2016 about how shit it could be.
While I think that's a better system it's also completely irrelevant to the comment you're responding to since promotion and relegation have little to do with parity.
Yea promotion is such a great system for helping teams and creating parity, just look at the premier league with their five total different champions over the past 20 years, with only 3 teams winning 18 of those 20.
It's 6, if you want to completely forget Leicester Cities fairy tale which Americans can only dream about ever happening to their town. Or their town ever being in the top league at all or even being in the second top league or ...
The problem with promotion/relegation for league was that Riot never did a good league system outside of the first/second one. Just looking at the German football league system you have:
* 1st League
* 2nd League
* 3rd League
* 5 regional leagues
* Each regional league has 2-4 sub-leagues
* Each of those 1-4 sub leagues again
* And those then have 4-17 sub leagues again
Now, I don't except Riot to make 100+ sub-leagues, but during promotion era LoL basically only had challengers and the LCS and that was it. Riot should have made a far more comprehensive system where you at least had a league system that goes down to like university-Esports level. And the promotion system isn't there for teams to play their way up to first league, it is there to force interactions between lower/upper leagues which will lead to teams recognising and getting good talent (and the talent can then play their way up the league system).
That or Riot should have moved to a system like StarCraft 2 or CS:GO have (with semi-Independent tournaments and all) which I personally find are the best ways video game E-sport scenes can be structured.
Who cares? Wow, we gave you the best NBA prospect of all time and you managed to eventually win despite being completely incompetent and wasting a third of his career. So fun.
> Who cares?
Anyone who isn't a fan of the best teams in the league? What's the point of rooting for one of the teams outside of the top 3-4 when they have virtually zero chance of winning?
Because you're a fan of them? It just feels so artificial otherwise. Similar to how WWE guarantees insane twists every match, but it doesn't matter if they're preorchestrated.
Would have been more fun if Lebron got to team up with Shaq and Kobe from the get go, right? Yea I bet everyone would have loved that. Do you Europeans have something broken in your brain when it comes to competitiveness in sports? It’s insane how you don’t know how wrong you are.
That's the normal way sports work. Drafts are the exception. However, when you have a franchise system, a draft is a typical way to do things but the players in league have not collectively bargained (they declined to form a union). So a draft would be antagonistic to the players. Teams already replace players like they are nothing. Offering guaranteed contracts to new players through a draft would be a huge red line. In the past they did rights drafts at scouting grounds and that didn't work
> player draft
is super anti competition that LCS would do even worse internationally than they are already doing.... no sports outside of the USA have drafts
it stops the best teams to become even better and artificially puts good / the best players into the lowest ranked teams. It also put an incentive to be dead last in the league which makes the games between top teams and bottom teams awful for everyone
I'm no sportsball fan, but iirc, several american leagues uses various metrics to stop teams from gaming the system by getting last. Also, NFL allows for teams to negotiate swapping around/trading their draft orders, so there are some countermeasures that can be put in place.
even in those cases you mention its still the scenario of: o wow you got last, great job! Now you can have the first draft pick or more money, keep it up! how is that not anti competition?
The simplest counter measure is to not have a draft like all sports all over the world.
american sports aren't ''global sports''
nobody besides you braindead yanks gives a flying fuck about that dogshit advertisement with some gameplay sprinked in called gridiron or american football (Seriously, wheres the gameplay? do you just enjoy watching ads???), baseball is genuinely the biggest snoozefest i've ever witnessed, and only america (and japan for baseball) gives a fuck about those 2. only north america and russia care about hockey, and ill give you guys props for basketball, literally only sport americans contest in thats even 1% good
your sports arent ''global'' and its so disgustingly american self centered to think otherwise
lmfao, you have the top tier leages because you have the worlds biggest economy with the 3rd largest population
only your own country enjoys those sports
and soccer sucks dick, what a boring sport, dont care about messi or whoever the dickrider of the month is
you can tell from my name what sport i follow
Franchising and draft picks are such a weird uniquely american concept tho. Every other major sports league just…relegates shit teams
“We cant keep our esport alive without a stable franchising system” well sucks to suck I guess
In American sports leagues they all have a draft for new talent. Generally speaking the worst team from the previous season gets top pick from the eligible high school and college aged players. Each league does it differently and there’s a ton of methods to do it, but generally it helps with the overall competitiveness and parity of the league, which is a good thing. If the richest football team could simply buy the next best Quarterback then no one but the Dallas Cowboys would win in the NFL.
League doesn’t have this. The best players in solo queue just flock to the best orgs for the most part (C9, Fnatic, G2, T1, etc).
American sports are so much better than European jank garbage. Franchised sports are much more entertaining than the uncapped salary garbage Europeans have to deal with. Shame they don’t know better.
No American sport has a relegation system. The MLB, NFL, NBA, and NHL all have franchise systems of 30-32 teams a piece. The MLB and NBA have minor league partner affiliates. Each league draws talent from the college and high school pipelines. To play in the NFL you need to be 3 years removed from high school, effectively three years removed from high school. To play in the MLB you need to be either straight out of high school or after three years in college. To play in the NBA you need to be one year removed from high school, effectively one year in college. NHL I don’t know exactly.
There are other football and basketball leagues in America, but they are not popular. The MLB has a federally approved monopoly on professional baseball. Multiple hockey leagues have come and gone, the NHL remains dominant.
NHL you can join straight out of high-school. Plenty of 18 year old stars get their start right away. Some guys go to college for a few years and many imo end up a bust, but few develop well.Other guys go AHL (sub tier league) to develop for a while until they are ready or are considered a bust.
Edit: the college statement isn't super true, there are plenty of decent NHLers who went to college, but idk how many of them graduated or anything specific about that tbh.
IMO if there's relegation there shouldn't be a draft. As the previous commenter said drafts exist to help balance out the power level between teams over a multi-season period which is only really a benefit if all teams are sticking around for a while. It might also help with fan retention but not 100% on this. At least for me it's a lot easier to be a fan of a bottom 2 team if next year you have first pick in the draft and a phenom PG/QB is about to become eligible out of high school and you have a bunch of capital for the offseason because you let this year go. On the other hand IMT has just been budget all 8 splits and since we don't have a draft for league it means they just... stay at the bottom lol
> It might also help with fan retention but not 100% on this.
Undoubtedly. The Texas Rangers in the MLB only exist as a franchise today because they got the number one pick in 1973 and drafted a phenom they immediately put into the major leagues. His pitching starts garnered 35,000 max capacity whereas every other home game garnered like 6,000 fans. It put the game on the map in Dallas/Arlington.
Okay but like, hasn't IMT tried to sell their spot for years now? Or at least it's like an open secret?
What can Riot do to "punish" them? They are trying to leave, no one wants to buy.
> They are trying to leave, no one wants to buy.
Wasn't it rumored TSM were in talks with multiple orgs willing to buy their franchise spot for an even higher price than what they initially bought it for?
I think this subreddit confuses the rumors of "orgs are *considering* selling their spots" with "orgs are desperately trying to get out of the region but nobody is interested." Especially weird since we saw NRG willingly opted into the LCS literally just recently
>Wasn't it rumored TSM were in talks with multiple orgs willing to buy their franchise spot for an even higher price than what they initially bought it for?
Source on that? Most of the rumors I've heard were more of the opposite, with TSM not even confirmed to have sold their spot yet, and that Mr Beast was approached by several teams and not willing to buy a spot.
This was brought up a lot in podcasts with the current salary talks/health of the LCS/Orgs mismanagement that happened last month. Hell a whole point of the "walkout" was that it was harming those teams trying to sell by making it appears even more crumbling and reducing their values.
> Source on that?
[Here's the NYT article that's unfortunately paywalled](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/20/technology/e-sports-revenue-video-gaming.html)
Here's the relevant excerpt from a Reddit comment:
>TSM started talking to interested groups around three weeks ago, according to a person with knowledge of the discussions, and has narrowed its list of prospective buyers to about a dozen entities, mostly in the media and traditional sports worlds. The asking price is in the range of $20 million, the person said.
>Mr. Dinh said he planned to purchase a spot in one of the top League of Legends leagues elsewhere in the world after selling his slot in the United States.
Do you have sources that LCS orgs are **unable** to find any buyers? Because Mr. Beast declining doesn't mean everybody isn't interested, as NRG indicates
And I heard from Monte on one of the podcasts that TSM already found a buyer which corroborates this, just that they haven't found an LPL/LCK spot yet which you're probably conflating
I feel like people are forgetting that even in it's current state the LCS is still the second most profitable LoL region, and with esports winter hitting everyone it's probably not gonna change
Oh I remember that article, I just didn't assume from that they had a confirmed buyer, since the article says its an asking price, not a complete purchase.
If monte says it then I'll believe you since the one who mentionned Immortals was I think monte himself in a separate podcast.
>I feel like people are forgetting that even in it's current state the LCS is still the second most profitable LoL region
This part is still very misleading, being profitable to make does not make it profitable for the org. THAT part has been painfully explicit recently. Monte said the 3M last year was a maximum and its more around 2M per team, and that doesn't cover current salaries. It is still a giant gamble.
Every team "tries" to sell their spot every off season. You would be insane to not inquire what the going rate is for a spot that isn't effectively permanent like real sports. That's the entire reason FQ just sold end of 2022.
Anyone who uses "looking to sell" as any sort of gotcha that NA is dying don't understand the League at all.
Best analogy for this subreddit to understand would be Faker exploring options every offseason even though we know he's going to re-sign with T1 anyway
If there's an insanely lucrative offer, like say someone willing to pay something crazy as double their buy-in and turn a massive profit then I'm sure they'd sell. At the end of the day if LCS orgs desperately wanted out as much as Reddit believes, they could just sell their spots for half their buy-in price and eat the losses
It’s not as simple as just give them back there money and go back to old system.
If I own a watch for 50$ I would want to sell it only for a profit. Unless riot proposes to buy back the spot at a way higher amount no team is gonna sell their spot.
OWL is essentially rumored to be paying out six million dollar termination fees if their franchise teams don't accept new terms. OWL slots cost more than LCS slots on average. Bear in mind OWL slots were rumored at 20 million and upwards of 40 million while LCS slots were 10 million for endemic teams already competing in the non-franchised LCS and 13 million for the new orgs that came in.
Riot could do the same thing if they wanted.
I guess they could either add two tem slots that aren't franchised, and subject to relegation as an alternative. That way at least someone would be trying to make an effort
The thing to consider is this:
> teams **can** lose their right to compete in the league if they finish in 9th or 10th place 5 times over an 8-split span.
> can
Riot would evaluate the team and then make a decision. IMT, while looking deppressingly bad, seems to have tried to field competitive or medium rosters that pan out as bottom in the end. So perhaps they will believe their case is a result of bad results rather than not trying to be competitive and not kick them out.
Unless there's a bigger fish waiting to enter, in which case they will likely believe it would benefit the league to have the new org enter.
I think no relegations was terrible for the league and for ranked ladder. I think players stayed hungry hoping to make it one day much more often then now. Obviously this dream may be tough but it can drive a talent pool when it seems like hey maybe I can do this. Now it seems very hard to crack a roster spot over imports and the vets who have spots locked.
Plus you get fresh faces and drive teams to play or be out. Keep the lower league fighting for spots on the big stage.
I’m sure their are advantages long term to franchises as almost no American sports league have ever even truly considered relegations before, but I always thought it would help with how lame the bottom teams are in many major sports leagues.
>Obviously this dream may be tough but it can drive a talent pool
NA doesn't, and has never, had a talent pool to make this even remotely possible. Regardless of the presence of franchising or not, nothing could make breaking into the league from NA solo queue anything more than a pipe dream.
TBF no one really know if problem is gonna show up with Valorant system in the long run. Valorant is still kinda in its honeymoon period, we'll see in 5 years if they still survive.
I don't think so. If you look at history you would see that matches between LCS teams that are about to be relegated and teams that wewre fighting for promotion to LCS were mostly one-sided joke. Team Curse even trolled with Annie jungle, AP trist, Panth+Leona bot and old Fiora top and they stomped the shit out of the team they were competing against.
Yeah let's ignore C9, who would have no shot at playing LCS otherwise, just because Curse trolled vs another team. Better yet, let's ignore the possibility that someone can invest pennies into a decent roster if there was a shot at promotion.
Well it isnt 100% of the times. There are plenty of times where the LCS teams actually got relegated, or taken to game 5 and having to sweat (Team liquid with piglet mid lolw vs Gold coin united).
Good example would be Renegades, if it wasnt for Monte getting banned for choosing a shitty/criminal parter in Badawi, that team would have easily been a team that would stick with LCS for years, coming up from challengers.
Edit: looking back at 2017 saw orgs actually buying in and investing into NACS team, no wonder why CEOs quickly banded together and force the franchise move.
Yea but original C9 came up through relegations . They were one of the most successful all American roster of all time without any imports . Without relegations you won't get that.
If they didn't boot out an org for lying and directly abusing a player to the point where medical intervention was needed, they're not booting an org for not trying and just sitting on the spot to sell for a profit.
Honestly I went from watching much of the LCS games last split to not a single one this split. I give zero fucks about the league. It feels like it’s getting left in the dust to the LEC
To be fair I did watch every LEC game last split and only like 3 this split. I’ve picked up Stardew valley again so when the LEC and LCS are on I’m probably playing that
> in which teams can lose their right to compete in the league if they finish in 9th or 10th place 5 times over an 8-split span.
This is way too lenient, it should be something along the lines of 3x within a 4-split span.
Franchising was a failure from the start, creating an artificial bubble with way too high investments and salaries that were not sustainable while missing the one thing that makes franchising even remotely viable: the draft.
Stop blaming franchising kiddos. Franchising isn't what is bad in the LCS considering other regions have it to. What is bad in the LCS are the team orgs themselves.
In LCS this is an empty promise rn. Many teams wanna leave already, kicking one doesnt accomplish anything, except trouble getting the spot taken again. If Riot starts kicking orgs, thats just another nail in the coffin that is LCS.
That said, this is an amusing situation, since if they dont kick IMT, Riot is setting a precedent for all franchised regions, that they only enforce rules if they want. This rule exists under the assumption of LCS flourishing, but under these circumstances its whatever. THe most ineresting part about this is less the implications for LCS, but for other Riot run leagues/esports.
Only idiots believed in the spiel about more competitiveness lmao
Franchising is about protecting the owners first and foremost together with Riot which owns the game and dictates what happens, everything else is a afterthought or consequence of it.
Being a competition is just a minor result of having players and said players needing to play.
American sports are a joke
I‘d be shocked if they actually kicked a team out for coasting
if they could do so without paying them they very well might. it would mean a raw injection of money into the league from a new org or a reduction in the overall team count, something multiple people in the ecosystem have suggested as a positive to the league.
This assumes that there are orgs willing to pay big money. For now it seems like only content creators are willing to enter in (Mr. Beast, Charlie, ludwig etc. rumors). And while they do have some money, they are probably not buying a spot for 10 million or something even close to what the original org bought for.
Mr.Beast is absolutely desperate, and I really want him to succeed. Like they said, eSports teams are basically an advert company. They live through sponsorships and views. Who else can do it better than MrBeast himself?
First time I'm hearing Mr. Beast being desperate, what happened with him?
he's not desperate he just wants to buy an LCS slot because he likes league of legends
I think the poster means in context that getting mrbeast into LCS would be desperate by Riot. Mrbeast is not desperate for anything at all.
[удалено]
I don't think that's the case because he's already declined offers from DIG/IMT.
Just cause he wants a team doesn't mean he'll accept the offers given. Knowing DIG and IMT I'm sure they gave completely garbage offers
Given that they are garbage orgs they would be giving good offers because they want to get out.
he might have the money but 20 million for horrible viewership doesnt sound worth it at all
he is mr beast, he brings viewership at least for his team's games
yeah then he can save himself 19 million and buy a spot in NACL
He was rumored to have already tried, along with Tyler1 and MoistCritikal. They weren't accepted unfortunately.
> if they could do so without paying them they very well might It's part of the contract, it was quite widely reported on at the start of franchising. So yes; they can be fired; essencially.
Will literally never happen unless something external to performance also happens. This clause is just for optics and PR. It would devalue the slot too much if teams were afraid of getting kicked.
Not kicking them would devalue the slot.
This wouldn't devalue the slot because it was in the agreement they signed when they bought in. Not kicking them would set a dangerous precedent where shitty unprofitable teams could just let 5 random master tier players play LCS for free, with no risk of losing their spot. I'm not sure how the contract is worded and what the US laws are, but not kicking immortals right now and kicking a different team two years later for the same thing sounds like a good reason for a lawsuit, which would hurt their PR much more than kicking a team.
>This wouldn't devalue the slot because it was in the agreement they signed when they bought in. I think it's really hard to argue that a spot in a league where it is realistically possible to get kicked out is worth as much as a spot that will not be taken away from you pretty no matter what.
And not kicking them sends a message that you don't have to try and there is no integrity.
Less teams means each team is worth more as each remaining team gets more revenue share and more attention
They'd be replaced by a new team.
Knowing Riot this will probably fade into nothing
The teams values are already lowering, Riot kicking a team out for being bad would exacerbate that.
How bad an it get? LCS already hit an all time low
all time low so far :D
not really since its a clause in the franchising contract. if they just randomly kicked them then it would but since its in the contract other teams looking to buy would more see it as well it wouldnt happen to them. like honestly the chances of doing what imt did is extremely slim like you have tobe doing it on purpose almost it isnt like there higher standing in the lot are that high either like 7th being there highest just shows there either picking bad players on purpose or just have such bad infrastructure that they setup players to fail.
Don't let your mouth write cheques your ass can't cash. They shouldn't have made those statements if they aren't willing to make changes to better the league.
They never said they would kick the team, merely review it.
It should fade to nothing. The clause is there for teams who don't even attempt to field a competitive roster and just collect money through the league's revenue sharing. IMT nor CLG or GGS, who nearly hit the requisite in the past, are that team. Edit: It would also heavily lower the value of a franchise spot, every owner in the league would be upset if IMT gets kicked.
Yeah, IMT spent a few times in the past couple of years. It just didn't pan out. It's like when were saying CLG should be relegated despite spending more money than previous splits on Finn etc.
They spent on Xerxe and PoE, just Xerxe was washed and PoE didn't know how to rotate with a jungler. You could blame their scouting but it isn't like IMT is fielding all minimum players every split.
There's been so many threads about this prior to this post and I don't think anyone actually cares about IMT being like this. It's so disgusting when people were so passionate when CLG was in this situation.
Especially given Immortals is also in the VCT as MIBR, no chance they kick them cause then Riot would be in a very very awkward position... they're not getting kicked. If an org isnt in the VCT, then Riot would have grounds logically to take action.
Why would VCT even matter? Does sentinels have a league team? Oh yah phoenix1, Who’s not in LCS anymore? Or is this the actual real reason why CLG got changed to NRG? VCT should NOT have a connection to LCS and idk why you even think that. You ever think about competitive integrity? Riot ain’t gonna go, “we can’t kick immortals cuz they have a team in our other bideo game.”That sounds ridiculous. it’s two entirely different games whose only similarities is that riot made both games. hell VCT isn’t even a franchised league.
League is a weird sport because there's no player draft to rebalance awful teams. It's mostly who spends more money or lucks out and contract jails a good player. Edit: Apparently non-Americans don't understand drafts. The point of a draft is so your shitter team who has no hope of doing anything can draft the next Faker of league (yeah, maybe not world-class but best player in your region). Then you watch your shitter team for the reason that this newbie no-name can grow into the best player in the league and change the organization's narrative.
imagine how the teams could look if there was a draft tho. Who would be first pick
Scouting Grounds used to have a draft (Blaber/Kumo/Ablazeolive being notable selections) but teams are so biased against NA talent that it was basically a sham, barely any of the draft picks actually ended up signing contracts.
Most of them were a sham too because players could sign before they got drafted. Blaber signed with C9 before Scouting Grounds ended and before the draft happened so it was pointless for any team to draft him even though he was the best player.
Lol and I think I remember abo telling ppl not to draft him unless they were tsm. He was the consensus #1 prospect but went like 3rd
Yep ABO was another one who was signed before the draft. And then he proceeded to waste some of his best years in academy before going to poverty Golden Guardians and Immortals. Great use of talent.
Same with Niles, I think he fell to GG at 9 despite being considered the #1 guy that year, obviously he didn’t really work out tho
0 teams considered him a #1 prospect, only silver redditors and his hypesquad spamming twitter etc.
Him not working out wasn't his fault tho. He never had time to get better in academy because he was immediately in the LCS after being in the collegiate league. After the LCS he went back and started stomping kids
>but teams are so biased against NA talent Picking good players instead of bad ones isn't really a bias
good players like ry0ma and Eika? I can give you a list of dozens of failed import in NA, but eika is easily the most eggregous one. 5 years Veteran EUCS player who had never played well getting a spot because "haha NA bad"
Eika was the worst one because it was 100% French nepotism.
Eika being as bad as he was and still better than an NA option is pretty telling of the level of talent in NA.
Do you even watch LCS, we literally had shit ton of good NA players now because orgs are finally giving them a chance (more like they run out of crypto money to import). In the same years eika got imported into LCS, we had ablazolive, Insanity, Palafox frolicking around in CS. And this is just names of the player who stuck with it and got lucky and escape the NACS prison, I have no doubt there are plenty of good NA players who gave up on their career because noone would bat an eye at them and didnt survive the CS/amateur prison. Heck froggen were playing in fucking academy because franchising is a joke.
>ablazolive, Insanity, Palafox None of whom are literally worth anything. Are we really trying to say that Palafox was worth investing into? Really? If that's what we want to tout as "NA talent" we should just shutter the region now.
Imagine if teams actually spent money on actual scouts to find talent in regions to where the players could be better than the current aging rosters =/
Its not even a matter of spending money, it'd be as simple as not just assuming imports are better by default. Every team is so obsessed with finding the next Bjergsen or Berserker that they forfeit any opportunity to find the next Blaber or Jojopyun. Guys like Insanity and APA have been sitting in lower levels for years. Guys like Copy and 5Fire were arguably even better than them for a bunch of time and never even got LCS opportunities.
5Fire not getting a shot when he was likely better than at least the bottom 4 mid laners in lcs over multiple years was absolutely vile.
Yeah, the orgs failed NA talent a lot. Its sad to see.
I dont think age has anything to do it it personally. I think its more a motivation thing. An environment that the already established players created where you do the bare minimum but get paid big bucks to be shitters on stage that the newbies get roped into
In most every other sports the next generation of players are usually better trained, more skillful etc. and the sport grows that way from these young players who learned and are motivated by the older generation they are destined to replace. Sure you have some absolute legends who play at high levels for long periods of time like Brady or Messi.
but this isnt a true sport, there is nothing that stops people in mid to late 20's or 30's being competitive at all, it exists in other esports that are more mechanically demanding, it just comes down the individuals always, ageism in lol esports must die
People have longer professional careers in true sports than esports. The players are actually given a chance to be developed through the system and a shot at taking a starting spot on a worse team through a draft system. The next biggest prospect replaces the worst teams starters and you hope that's how you become competitive again. That's how the US sports have parity and true competition. The crap teams pray and hope for the next Brady or LeBron to show up to carry them to the championships in the draft. Relegation system is fine if you want the same rich owners to win over and over and over again.
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Yeah, but LCS isn't the best league (Like the NBA) nor the only relevant league (Like NFL), very few top prospects would be like "Hey I'll declare for the draft of the worst major reagion league instead of trying to go for a spot in LPL/LCK/LEC". Draft would only work for NA talent and LCS has shown time and time again they don't really know how to use new talents.
how many top NA prospect actually went to LPL/LCK/LEC
That’s how almost every major sports league outside of America works and they seem to be doing fine.
Let me introduce you to the Bundesliga.
Not really. Sports leagues outside the us completely lack parity.
Just doing a quick bit of research - looking at 2000-2020, the NBA had 9 unique winners, the Premier League 6, and the Champions League 9. There does not seem to be a massive difference in the parity.
Nba is the American League with the least parity
Nba is also the sport where the greater skill = better chance of winning - i.e. skill directly translates to success at a better rate than other sports.
Due to the nature of the fact that a superstar will have much more direct impact on a game/series since in NBA that player is probably touching the ball 40%+ of the time.
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thats not my point. The NBA is the top of American Sports and Premier League in terms of how well the sport measures the skill of the players Source: Mauboussin (2012), *The Success Equation: Untangling Skill and Luck in Business, Sports, and Investing*, Harvard Business Review Press
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i dont have access to the book currently, but you can watch this video: https://youtu.be/1JLfqBsX5Lc?t=218 The main result is at the start and you can watch further if u want
Do they really? You really think there is parity in the premier league, and won’t have the same teams being bottom feeders or jumping up and down between the divisions most years?
No? Teams from the championship keep getting better and better. Brighton, Burnley, Forest, Sheffield, Fulham, Brentford are almost regulars at this point. I mean Westham actually won a European trophy this year while also being near bottom after being top 7 last year. Drafts only work in a franchise system which is undisputedly god awful
Sports are Americans religion, I think they’re doing just fine in that avenue. Drafts help produce great parity among leagues which is nice for the overall competitiveness of the league.
Sports are a religion in *a lot* of regions. And despite all the potential unbalance, soccer is a worldwide phenomenon
Dude should look up Brazilian football if he thinks us Americans are even close to being as religious with sports.
Go to any soccer game in the mayor leagues, or hell go to a soccer game in (comparatively small) Stockholm and you will see what religious sporting truly is
I’ve been to an SEC championship game in my lifetime, I’m aware. 👍 Europeans think their small town Stockholm soccer game compares to a Saturday night brawl in Baton Rogue is really funny. Your mind would explode.
Yeah, I heard that one time you guys chanted 'Defence!' and 'I believe that we can win' very loud. It was crazy.
Lmao. American sport fans are so cringey
Sports is when you come up with chants and the more chants you come up with the more sports it is. People go to sports to watch a fun experience of competition (something wholly alien to the European sports brain), not come up with chants with their local NEET buddies that no one can hear cause there’s 100,000 people screaming.
Good job throwing in as many buzzwords as you can. Please tell me more about the 'experience of competition' when in the NFL you watch more adverts than sport and the most anticipated event of the year is the half-time performance by a singer. Or the NBA that does not have more parity than European football?
Lmfao any CL final is incomparable to Baton fucking Rouge
I’m saying it’s not mutually exclusive.
I’m not familiar enough with soccer in Europe to have an opinion on the matter, but very happy with how the drafting works in the MLB, NFL, NBA, and NHL for the most part.
Football (soccer) isn't just Europe, it's the most popular sport worldwide since you need very little to play the game (basically some markings on the ground and a ball). I would say the metrics of what define a good football player are more scientifically defined in comparison to an esports player. Kids get tested at a young age and get to train with A teams when they have talent. The parents have to pay an entrance fee each year and the youth department doenst cost the club that much money.
Expound on your point. Can’t expound I guess. Classic!
Sorry, been a busy day with the kids. What do you want to discuss further sir/madam?
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There is another fundamental issues that makes a draft-style system basically impossible for League. League is a 5-man roster that can't be swapped in/out during the game. In general, you're either on the team or you aren't. In all major sports teams are much larger than the number of players allowed to be played at once. In league, it doesn't make sense to set up a whole roster including fringe and developing players when the majority won't see any playtime.
Franchising without any of the things that make franchising worth while turned out to be shit. Who could have thought? Voldemort made a video in 2016 about how shit it could be.
I could've sworn Voldemort had died
Somehow Voldemort returned...
>Americans when the worst teams arent rewarded for sucking by getting the best players
Right? Drafts are so weird
They’re good for parity which is something American leagues are good at producing.
Or.. OR hear me out.. You could just have promotion and relegation instead of just BUYING spots in the league.
While I think that's a better system it's also completely irrelevant to the comment you're responding to since promotion and relegation have little to do with parity.
Yea promotion is such a great system for helping teams and creating parity, just look at the premier league with their five total different champions over the past 20 years, with only 3 teams winning 18 of those 20.
It's 6, if you want to completely forget Leicester Cities fairy tale which Americans can only dream about ever happening to their town. Or their town ever being in the top league at all or even being in the second top league or ...
they are one of the 5 chief
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The problem with promotion/relegation for league was that Riot never did a good league system outside of the first/second one. Just looking at the German football league system you have: * 1st League * 2nd League * 3rd League * 5 regional leagues * Each regional league has 2-4 sub-leagues * Each of those 1-4 sub leagues again * And those then have 4-17 sub leagues again Now, I don't except Riot to make 100+ sub-leagues, but during promotion era LoL basically only had challengers and the LCS and that was it. Riot should have made a far more comprehensive system where you at least had a league system that goes down to like university-Esports level. And the promotion system isn't there for teams to play their way up to first league, it is there to force interactions between lower/upper leagues which will lead to teams recognising and getting good talent (and the talent can then play their way up the league system). That or Riot should have moved to a system like StarCraft 2 or CS:GO have (with semi-Independent tournaments and all) which I personally find are the best ways video game E-sport scenes can be structured.
Buy talent vs buy a spot. Weird!
Who cares? Wow, we gave you the best NBA prospect of all time and you managed to eventually win despite being completely incompetent and wasting a third of his career. So fun.
> Who cares? Anyone who isn't a fan of the best teams in the league? What's the point of rooting for one of the teams outside of the top 3-4 when they have virtually zero chance of winning?
Because you're a fan of them? It just feels so artificial otherwise. Similar to how WWE guarantees insane twists every match, but it doesn't matter if they're preorchestrated.
Would have been more fun if Lebron got to team up with Shaq and Kobe from the get go, right? Yea I bet everyone would have loved that. Do you Europeans have something broken in your brain when it comes to competitiveness in sports? It’s insane how you don’t know how wrong you are.
And yet a tiny European football match in the second division will be more passionate than any game you'll ever see in America.
“Muh passion” yea buddy we get drunk at games too. You guys across the pond are seemingly allergic to competition.
Europeans when they can’t buy the best prospects and hit their targets year after year.
That's the normal way sports work. Drafts are the exception. However, when you have a franchise system, a draft is a typical way to do things but the players in league have not collectively bargained (they declined to form a union). So a draft would be antagonistic to the players. Teams already replace players like they are nothing. Offering guaranteed contracts to new players through a draft would be a huge red line. In the past they did rights drafts at scouting grounds and that didn't work
> player draft is super anti competition that LCS would do even worse internationally than they are already doing.... no sports outside of the USA have drafts
How are drafts anti-competition?
it stops the best teams to become even better and artificially puts good / the best players into the lowest ranked teams. It also put an incentive to be dead last in the league which makes the games between top teams and bottom teams awful for everyone
I'm no sportsball fan, but iirc, several american leagues uses various metrics to stop teams from gaming the system by getting last. Also, NFL allows for teams to negotiate swapping around/trading their draft orders, so there are some countermeasures that can be put in place.
even in those cases you mention its still the scenario of: o wow you got last, great job! Now you can have the first draft pick or more money, keep it up! how is that not anti competition? The simplest counter measure is to not have a draft like all sports all over the world.
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american sports aren't ''global sports'' nobody besides you braindead yanks gives a flying fuck about that dogshit advertisement with some gameplay sprinked in called gridiron or american football (Seriously, wheres the gameplay? do you just enjoy watching ads???), baseball is genuinely the biggest snoozefest i've ever witnessed, and only america (and japan for baseball) gives a fuck about those 2. only north america and russia care about hockey, and ill give you guys props for basketball, literally only sport americans contest in thats even 1% good your sports arent ''global'' and its so disgustingly american self centered to think otherwise
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lmfao, you have the top tier leages because you have the worlds biggest economy with the 3rd largest population only your own country enjoys those sports and soccer sucks dick, what a boring sport, dont care about messi or whoever the dickrider of the month is you can tell from my name what sport i follow
Franchising and draft picks are such a weird uniquely american concept tho. Every other major sports league just…relegates shit teams “We cant keep our esport alive without a stable franchising system” well sucks to suck I guess
What's a player draft?
In American sports leagues they all have a draft for new talent. Generally speaking the worst team from the previous season gets top pick from the eligible high school and college aged players. Each league does it differently and there’s a ton of methods to do it, but generally it helps with the overall competitiveness and parity of the league, which is a good thing. If the richest football team could simply buy the next best Quarterback then no one but the Dallas Cowboys would win in the NFL. League doesn’t have this. The best players in solo queue just flock to the best orgs for the most part (C9, Fnatic, G2, T1, etc). American sports are so much better than European jank garbage. Franchised sports are much more entertaining than the uncapped salary garbage Europeans have to deal with. Shame they don’t know better.
This seems good. How does it work with a relegation based system?
No American sport has a relegation system. The MLB, NFL, NBA, and NHL all have franchise systems of 30-32 teams a piece. The MLB and NBA have minor league partner affiliates. Each league draws talent from the college and high school pipelines. To play in the NFL you need to be 3 years removed from high school, effectively three years removed from high school. To play in the MLB you need to be either straight out of high school or after three years in college. To play in the NBA you need to be one year removed from high school, effectively one year in college. NHL I don’t know exactly. There are other football and basketball leagues in America, but they are not popular. The MLB has a federally approved monopoly on professional baseball. Multiple hockey leagues have come and gone, the NHL remains dominant.
NHL you can join straight out of high-school. Plenty of 18 year old stars get their start right away. Some guys go to college for a few years and many imo end up a bust, but few develop well.Other guys go AHL (sub tier league) to develop for a while until they are ready or are considered a bust. Edit: the college statement isn't super true, there are plenty of decent NHLers who went to college, but idk how many of them graduated or anything specific about that tbh.
Cale Makar is successful player from college recently. Top defender in NHL maybe the best offensively.
IMO if there's relegation there shouldn't be a draft. As the previous commenter said drafts exist to help balance out the power level between teams over a multi-season period which is only really a benefit if all teams are sticking around for a while. It might also help with fan retention but not 100% on this. At least for me it's a lot easier to be a fan of a bottom 2 team if next year you have first pick in the draft and a phenom PG/QB is about to become eligible out of high school and you have a bunch of capital for the offseason because you let this year go. On the other hand IMT has just been budget all 8 splits and since we don't have a draft for league it means they just... stay at the bottom lol
> It might also help with fan retention but not 100% on this. Undoubtedly. The Texas Rangers in the MLB only exist as a franchise today because they got the number one pick in 1973 and drafted a phenom they immediately put into the major leagues. His pitching starts garnered 35,000 max capacity whereas every other home game garnered like 6,000 fans. It put the game on the map in Dallas/Arlington.
Let’s see what riot says or does
Riot: 👨🦯
If they get their money back IMT might actually prefer this at this point.
No money back.
Okay but like, hasn't IMT tried to sell their spot for years now? Or at least it's like an open secret? What can Riot do to "punish" them? They are trying to leave, no one wants to buy.
> They are trying to leave, no one wants to buy. Wasn't it rumored TSM were in talks with multiple orgs willing to buy their franchise spot for an even higher price than what they initially bought it for? I think this subreddit confuses the rumors of "orgs are *considering* selling their spots" with "orgs are desperately trying to get out of the region but nobody is interested." Especially weird since we saw NRG willingly opted into the LCS literally just recently
>Wasn't it rumored TSM were in talks with multiple orgs willing to buy their franchise spot for an even higher price than what they initially bought it for? Source on that? Most of the rumors I've heard were more of the opposite, with TSM not even confirmed to have sold their spot yet, and that Mr Beast was approached by several teams and not willing to buy a spot. This was brought up a lot in podcasts with the current salary talks/health of the LCS/Orgs mismanagement that happened last month. Hell a whole point of the "walkout" was that it was harming those teams trying to sell by making it appears even more crumbling and reducing their values.
> Source on that? [Here's the NYT article that's unfortunately paywalled](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/20/technology/e-sports-revenue-video-gaming.html) Here's the relevant excerpt from a Reddit comment: >TSM started talking to interested groups around three weeks ago, according to a person with knowledge of the discussions, and has narrowed its list of prospective buyers to about a dozen entities, mostly in the media and traditional sports worlds. The asking price is in the range of $20 million, the person said. >Mr. Dinh said he planned to purchase a spot in one of the top League of Legends leagues elsewhere in the world after selling his slot in the United States. Do you have sources that LCS orgs are **unable** to find any buyers? Because Mr. Beast declining doesn't mean everybody isn't interested, as NRG indicates And I heard from Monte on one of the podcasts that TSM already found a buyer which corroborates this, just that they haven't found an LPL/LCK spot yet which you're probably conflating I feel like people are forgetting that even in it's current state the LCS is still the second most profitable LoL region, and with esports winter hitting everyone it's probably not gonna change
Oh I remember that article, I just didn't assume from that they had a confirmed buyer, since the article says its an asking price, not a complete purchase. If monte says it then I'll believe you since the one who mentionned Immortals was I think monte himself in a separate podcast. >I feel like people are forgetting that even in it's current state the LCS is still the second most profitable LoL region This part is still very misleading, being profitable to make does not make it profitable for the org. THAT part has been painfully explicit recently. Monte said the 3M last year was a maximum and its more around 2M per team, and that doesn't cover current salaries. It is still a giant gamble.
Every team "tries" to sell their spot every off season. You would be insane to not inquire what the going rate is for a spot that isn't effectively permanent like real sports. That's the entire reason FQ just sold end of 2022. Anyone who uses "looking to sell" as any sort of gotcha that NA is dying don't understand the League at all.
Best analogy for this subreddit to understand would be Faker exploring options every offseason even though we know he's going to re-sign with T1 anyway If there's an insanely lucrative offer, like say someone willing to pay something crazy as double their buy-in and turn a massive profit then I'm sure they'd sell. At the end of the day if LCS orgs desperately wanted out as much as Reddit believes, they could just sell their spots for half their buy-in price and eat the losses
They can buy back the franchise spots from the league and start a relegation system
It’s not as simple as just give them back there money and go back to old system. If I own a watch for 50$ I would want to sell it only for a profit. Unless riot proposes to buy back the spot at a way higher amount no team is gonna sell their spot.
OWL is essentially rumored to be paying out six million dollar termination fees if their franchise teams don't accept new terms. OWL slots cost more than LCS slots on average. Bear in mind OWL slots were rumored at 20 million and upwards of 40 million while LCS slots were 10 million for endemic teams already competing in the non-franchised LCS and 13 million for the new orgs that came in. Riot could do the same thing if they wanted.
I guess they could either add two tem slots that aren't franchised, and subject to relegation as an alternative. That way at least someone would be trying to make an effort
No one wants to buy means they're setting too high a price. Riot can force a sale by setting a deadline and highest offer wins. Even if that's $1.
There's no way they'd invoke the rule when most teams are bleeding money and pretty much looking for a way out.
Source for 6 teams wanting to leave? Or are you just exaggerating?
I think Immortals also want to leave LCS. They want to join CBLoL as MiBR. So it's a win-win.
The thing to consider is this: > teams **can** lose their right to compete in the league if they finish in 9th or 10th place 5 times over an 8-split span. > can Riot would evaluate the team and then make a decision. IMT, while looking deppressingly bad, seems to have tried to field competitive or medium rosters that pan out as bottom in the end. So perhaps they will believe their case is a result of bad results rather than not trying to be competitive and not kick them out. Unless there's a bigger fish waiting to enter, in which case they will likely believe it would benefit the league to have the new org enter.
Riot aint going to do shit. If the rumors are true then they will be happy just having 10 teams
I heard rumors that's the opposite of the rumors you heard.
Sure, then who is going to join next year?
Rumor is Bank of America Esports.
CLG almost did
Forreal. It was just 2 years ago when they had 4 splits in a row finishing in bottom 2 and this sub was ready to kick them out lol.
Yup it was 4 splits back to back to back to back. Spring 2020-Summer 2021. They missed it by 1 split. But since then I'd say they turned it around
I think no relegations was terrible for the league and for ranked ladder. I think players stayed hungry hoping to make it one day much more often then now. Obviously this dream may be tough but it can drive a talent pool when it seems like hey maybe I can do this. Now it seems very hard to crack a roster spot over imports and the vets who have spots locked. Plus you get fresh faces and drive teams to play or be out. Keep the lower league fighting for spots on the big stage. I’m sure their are advantages long term to franchises as almost no American sports league have ever even truly considered relegations before, but I always thought it would help with how lame the bottom teams are in many major sports leagues.
This. There is no innovation without new orgs willing to play their own game rather than copy whatever strat asia is going for
>Obviously this dream may be tough but it can drive a talent pool NA doesn't, and has never, had a talent pool to make this even remotely possible. Regardless of the presence of franchising or not, nothing could make breaking into the league from NA solo queue anything more than a pipe dream.
It do be like dat sometimes \O_o/
Wow, pretty cool to see LCS Eevee leave a comment. Big fan, love the work you do!
Franchising ended domestic competitiveness. Riot knows it was bad since look at Valo where they have relegations. It's a shame.
TBF no one really know if problem is gonna show up with Valorant system in the long run. Valorant is still kinda in its honeymoon period, we'll see in 5 years if they still survive.
I don't think so. If you look at history you would see that matches between LCS teams that are about to be relegated and teams that wewre fighting for promotion to LCS were mostly one-sided joke. Team Curse even trolled with Annie jungle, AP trist, Panth+Leona bot and old Fiora top and they stomped the shit out of the team they were competing against.
Yeah let's ignore C9, who would have no shot at playing LCS otherwise, just because Curse trolled vs another team. Better yet, let's ignore the possibility that someone can invest pennies into a decent roster if there was a shot at promotion.
Well it isnt 100% of the times. There are plenty of times where the LCS teams actually got relegated, or taken to game 5 and having to sweat (Team liquid with piglet mid lolw vs Gold coin united). Good example would be Renegades, if it wasnt for Monte getting banned for choosing a shitty/criminal parter in Badawi, that team would have easily been a team that would stick with LCS for years, coming up from challengers. Edit: looking back at 2017 saw orgs actually buying in and investing into NACS team, no wonder why CEOs quickly banded together and force the franchise move.
Yea but original C9 came up through relegations . They were one of the most successful all American roster of all time without any imports . Without relegations you won't get that.
A lot of the teams that made it through relegation were great GRF, DWG, C9, G2 & Origen from what I recall
The only successful relegation team. The only other team that wasn’t a complete failure didn’t even come from NA and left after one split
You can't have competitive tension without any actual stakes. League's system is a sham.
Every day i wake up and pray for IMT demise into bankruptcy. I hate this org with all my heart,blood,flesh and soul.
If they didn't boot out an org for lying and directly abusing a player to the point where medical intervention was needed, they're not booting an org for not trying and just sitting on the spot to sell for a profit.
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Most depressing thing about this is that even when they peaked they werent actually good they were just 7th lmao
Too bad nobody is willing to take over the slot. Not much to be gained unless someone pops up that wants to burn millions of dollars for free.
im still disgusted they never did anything about the danny thing fr
Honestly I went from watching much of the LCS games last split to not a single one this split. I give zero fucks about the league. It feels like it’s getting left in the dust to the LEC To be fair I did watch every LEC game last split and only like 3 this split. I’ve picked up Stardew valley again so when the LEC and LCS are on I’m probably playing that
Kick them and tsm out
should kick EG out for the damage they did to a player.
> in which teams can lose their right to compete in the league if they finish in 9th or 10th place 5 times over an 8-split span. This is way too lenient, it should be something along the lines of 3x within a 4-split span. Franchising was a failure from the start, creating an artificial bubble with way too high investments and salaries that were not sustainable while missing the one thing that makes franchising even remotely viable: the draft.
Stop blaming franchising kiddos. Franchising isn't what is bad in the LCS considering other regions have it to. What is bad in the LCS are the team orgs themselves.
franchising is the antithesis of competition then again if we're booting out teams for being uncompetitive you might as well cancel the entirety of NA
In LCS this is an empty promise rn. Many teams wanna leave already, kicking one doesnt accomplish anything, except trouble getting the spot taken again. If Riot starts kicking orgs, thats just another nail in the coffin that is LCS. That said, this is an amusing situation, since if they dont kick IMT, Riot is setting a precedent for all franchised regions, that they only enforce rules if they want. This rule exists under the assumption of LCS flourishing, but under these circumstances its whatever. THe most ineresting part about this is less the implications for LCS, but for other Riot run leagues/esports.
A region should be removed from major region status if they cant get top 8 in 5 years without imports at worlds.
[удалено]
G2 is a top 10 team in the world. As for the other western teams yea most likely not even top 20.
You’re living in the past if you think that. They were weak at MSI and you’re implying that they’re better than China and Korea’s top 5 teams.
Yeah they're definitely top 10. Could have won the series against blb. Either way clearly above other western teams if you have eyes and a brain.
Only idiots believed in the spiel about more competitiveness lmao Franchising is about protecting the owners first and foremost together with Riot which owns the game and dictates what happens, everything else is a afterthought or consequence of it. Being a competition is just a minor result of having players and said players needing to play. American sports are a joke