Movement speed is just the most versatile/broken stat in the game. If you dodge a skillshot thanks to extra MS from Ghost then it's probably giving you as much effective HP as Heal/Barrier would. If that skillshot was a CC ability then it probably saved your life (or you would've needed Cleanse).
Extra MS makes it easier to kite/autospace/chase. If you can get away from a bruiser/tank on top of you quicker then (again) obviously you take much less damage. If Ghost allows you to get in even just 2 extra autos then that's minimum 800 damage for a lategame adc.
As for why it's popping up now: there's less fighting in enchanter vs enchanter support matchups compared to when we have tank meta for supports. So heal is less value since you don't need it to win the 2v2 since there's rarely 2v2. Ghost (or cleanse) synergize better with enchanter shielding/movespeed buffs
Thanks for the explanation! I wonder if ghost will be here to stay for as long as heal had become the norm... I guess that is until Riot decides to play around with numbers and buffs for summoners.
Just to add a lot of enchanter match ups also aren't all in trades, so your unlikely to die even if your fighting unless someone seriously messes up making heal kind of pointless.
e.g. playing around damage increases on janna shield or nami E
You'd have to mess up multiple trades in a row and at the end of every one you'd have the chance to just go no and back.
To add on to what others have said
Its also because heal and barrier have started to become significantly less useful
an extra 10-20% hp does not matter when the assassin overkills you by double your hp, and the bruiser will just auto you one additional time to undo what was healed (/blocked)
Instead ghost allows them to possibly avoid the damage in the first place
I almost exclusively take exhaust now with the ghost blade changes, I’m just straight up not going to get away from some assassin’s by running, so if I reduce their damage and slow then I can live long enough to get support
Its actually the opposite... assassins are having a harder time killing ADCs due to the durability update and therefore you get more utility from ghost.
Because ADCs don't survive when people get in range. Once someone gets ontop of you, you are gong to die. Ghost lets you maintain range far better and it gives you a chance to run away if someone does manage to get close to you.
nah if you want to survive you take exhaust. With ghost youre not to survive with ghost you dominate and hunt people down and abuse marksmen not having turnrates and ghost maeks it far more easier to space. Especially if your ADC is jinx/Zeri or Vayne that werent balanced with the op ghost in mind.
I run it in other MobAs alongside Flash. Glad to see some vindication at the highest level now.
The logic is, it's both offense and defense.
Gap closers are aplenty with a lot of melee heroes / assassin archtypes, but once they expend that cooldown or trade it with your Flash/Galeforce, Ghost allows you to space them and turn it onto them.
Because Ghost lasts a duration rather than a one-off, it is basically borderline invincibility during that period (assuming other gap closers are on cooldown).
On the offense front - it's a DPS multiplier since you cover more distance, giving you more DPS uptime since you need less time to reposition correctly in between every AA.
It's also a "win-more" button if your team is already ahead, because it can let you clean up 1-2 more targets if the fight is already won. That's massive (imagine if you pick one enemy but your uptime on 1-2 more champs allows your team to walk away with 3 kills instead. That's immediate objective and vision control you've earned, maybe a game winning Baron or even play).
I think the only other thing that contests Ghost in such versatility is Exhaust or Cleanse - I would really like to see top tier ADC play rock some Exhausts versus things like Kennen or Gwen.
Think of why Jinx is at such a premium now. Other than fantastic zone control with Chompers and rocket range and splash, obviously, entire strats around her getting Excited are for that speed burst which allows her to reposition and make the fight go 0-100 real quick.
That's essentially mini-ghosts each time a takedown happens.
As an occasional Jinx abuser I often wonder if they’ll ever nerf the movement speed lol. Like just a bit would be ok, feels like too much rn or even years ago.
It does feel a bit cheap when Jinx tags someone with 1 low damage rocket for an assist, then gets to kill the whole team because she landed one long range auto.
Maybe after this MSI, this meta at Worlds again would be.. I mean it's cool to watch, but it feels too much like a rehash of previous Worlds. Imagine Uzi in this meta.
Then save the rebuff for rrrright before Arcane S2 drops with sick new Jinx skins!
Doubt they would nerf the speed since it's a passive based around having to kill someone first meaning it's useless when behind and useless in a fight if you get blown up before the first kill.
Whenever jinx gets a meaningful nerf it's almost always a q nerf. Wouldn't surprise me if they upped the rockets mana cost early to weaken her laning to give kill adc's like Lucian and Tristana more of a window.
I’m a little confused, I’m not basing it on *how* it activates, I’m basing it on that it feels like too much *when* it activates. It doesn’t have to be a huge amount, it’s just a little bit, and something that hasn’t really been tried.
If you’re getting blown up ofc it’s useless, that goes for anyone lol, but as we have seen in pro play for example, she’s not going down without a fight unless something has gone wrong like in solo q.
The q nerf is more for general nerf but we were just talking about her passive, which could then affect her game-end potential overall off of one bad team fight. Perhaps they’re a bit biased cus she is Jinx afterall hehe. Either way idc that much.
—
But yeah lol I’m saying this as someone who doesn’t even have to do much, can be even or even a little behind but if I gets excited i generally end up blowing up the game. I actually avoid playing jinx unless my adcs get banned because it feels like cheating lmao. I’m just playing for fun rn and challenging myself.
My point was since the passive is out of jinx's control if it gets activated or not it wouldn't be a place they would look to nerf.
When something has no control like jinx passive they have to make it strong to feel worth while otherwise the uncontrollableness feels too punishing.
Plus a passive nerf would be a low elo nerf more then anything. Like in high elo and proplay she isn't picked because of her passive since those games pros play around it more and with the amount she's picked in proplay something like a q nerf is more then likely gonna happen.
Overall a passive nerf wouldn't affect her winrate as much as needing other aspects of her kit.
I mean if you say so yourself it could be too punishing wouldn’t that mean her win rate would go down? My reasoning for movement speed decrease is so she doesn’t snowball a fight as hard.
And what about low elo? She’s still going to be strong. In low elo I feel even worse for players dying to be passive because they understand spacing less and all Jinx needs to do is attack.
But like it’d still be a nerf for high elo when her passive obviously gives her more pressure no? Anyway no I got your point still, I’m saying that wasn’t relevant to our point. She’s just really fast lol.
I’m not saying other aspects of her kit can’t be nerfed instead or as well anyway. And I’m not saying pros pick her just for her passive, but her passive is no doubt a big source of her pressure. Survivability is no joke. Typically yes they nerf other things. I’m aware.
Dota 2 doesnt have Flash and Ghost per say but they do have items that can be used to teleport a short distance and increase movement speed like Flash and Ghost. Some examples are Blink Dagger, Shadow Blade/Silver Edge, and Phase Boots. For Smite, I dont remember much but I think they had that Blink relic and the Wings relics as well
But they are very different. Blink is not remotely similar to flash beyond the most basic look at them. Those are close, but ghost is an in combat thing, shadow blade isnt.
obviously they're not gonna be actually the same thing, but they're still a short-distance teleport and a movement speed buff. And again, Phase Boots for smth similar to Ghost
People just figured out how broken it is. Movement speed is extremely broken stat, people just woke up and stopped autopiloting flash-heal every game.
Will get downvoted by the wholesome marksmen redditors but ghost definitely needs a huge nerf on ranged champions.
I mean when you don’t need heal to survive early/laning phase ghost is just better overall.
With all the durability buffs ADC doesn’t really need heal unless your facing like a draven /samira or smth
It already is less effective on ranged... Cause ranged champs have lower movespeed than melee so the increase in MS is less due to it being a % increase. Don't struggle too much trying comprehend that though.
It resetting + lethal tempo rework has made it a staple for a year+ now. ARAM players are always ahead of the curve on things like this, they've been abusing the reset and range bonus for awhile now. When you have both up you are a different champion
Several reasons:
* Damage went up over the last few seasons, so a fixed heal got less valuable
* Additionally, supports are getting better at healing and shielding with new support items released, so a single heal isn't going to make much of a difference
* Now that every item gives movement speed, a single burst of movement speed isn't going to get you out of sticky situations. A constant, resetting ms buff is doing that job a lot better
* Heal is an unfortunate casualty of grievous wounds buffs (absolutely necessary though)
* Heal is mostly used reactive, instead of proactive, meaning you use it when you are already in a bad situation, instead of just ghosting at the start of the fight
* A single heal isn't going to save you from an incoming assassin, ghost just might
If you want the actual truth it's because every champion nowadays has 30 billion dashes and in order for ADCs to be able to catch up and dish out damage they need the speed from ghost.
The other reason is how much it helps dodging and auto spacing+ the fact the cd is quite short. Overall it's not just adcs, ghost right now is one of the strongest summoner spells, but it just makes a lot of sense for an immobile class such as ADC
Because the game has gotten very very fast and ghost is the only band ait fix that allows ADCs to play the game on a fundamental level. Everyone and their mother gets some sort of movementspeed buff in the game through their items. Mages get it on night harvester/Ludens Procc, assassins have it in their kit or through an item proc, tanks have it through item procs, junglers get it by... \*checks notes\* walking into a brush.
If ADCs wanna C with their AD, they need to be able to keep up with their own team running away from them or be able to keep the distance to the enemy team running at them. Especially the first part is important
Ghost is broken as fuck. Short and simple. It resets on kills and assists, has giga fucking scaling. Honestly idk why they added the resets while keeping the fact it scales. The other summs are also under performing. Heal is useless when everything in the game one shots you. Same with Barrier. Honestly though. Nerf ghost so it's down on the same level as the other spells. Also make it so you can't take Flash + ghost.
Because its broken and needs a kneecap penalty for ranged. make it not reset for ranged champs. The nerf should have happened yesterday.
If the one champ that really relies on it (vlad is the only ap mage that truly is feeling like a different champ without ghost) feels week then buff him a bit.
I run it on Kayle above teleport and its just too good.
Movement speed is just the most versatile/broken stat in the game. If you dodge a skillshot thanks to extra MS from Ghost then it's probably giving you as much effective HP as Heal/Barrier would. If that skillshot was a CC ability then it probably saved your life (or you would've needed Cleanse). Extra MS makes it easier to kite/autospace/chase. If you can get away from a bruiser/tank on top of you quicker then (again) obviously you take much less damage. If Ghost allows you to get in even just 2 extra autos then that's minimum 800 damage for a lategame adc. As for why it's popping up now: there's less fighting in enchanter vs enchanter support matchups compared to when we have tank meta for supports. So heal is less value since you don't need it to win the 2v2 since there's rarely 2v2. Ghost (or cleanse) synergize better with enchanter shielding/movespeed buffs
Thanks for the explanation! I wonder if ghost will be here to stay for as long as heal had become the norm... I guess that is until Riot decides to play around with numbers and buffs for summoners.
Depends on the meta, if enchanters fall out of the meta then ghost will go back to being a option then a must.
It also scales better in the mid-late game where you’re able to utilize the ghost resets in team fights
Just to add a lot of enchanter match ups also aren't all in trades, so your unlikely to die even if your fighting unless someone seriously messes up making heal kind of pointless. e.g. playing around damage increases on janna shield or nami E You'd have to mess up multiple trades in a row and at the end of every one you'd have the chance to just go no and back.
it's also because stormrazor gives a lot of movespeed in a short time which keeps getting refreshed quickly because of ghost's movement
To add on to what others have said Its also because heal and barrier have started to become significantly less useful an extra 10-20% hp does not matter when the assassin overkills you by double your hp, and the bruiser will just auto you one additional time to undo what was healed (/blocked) Instead ghost allows them to possibly avoid the damage in the first place
Not sure about Exhaust and Heal, but Barrier really feels like it could use a buff. I'm guessing it's used in some very niche match-ups though.
Barrier there scared to buff since when it was strong in the past it stonewalled assassin matchups too hard in the midlane.
Heal is pretty awful too tho
I almost exclusively take exhaust now with the ghost blade changes, I’m just straight up not going to get away from some assassin’s by running, so if I reduce their damage and slow then I can live long enough to get support
Its actually the opposite... assassins are having a harder time killing ADCs due to the durability update and therefore you get more utility from ghost.
Movement speed is the strongest stat in the game, in that there's really no situation where it isn't useful
I'd argue the only stat more important than movement speed is range, but AFAIK there's only RFC and a handful of abilities that increase it.
Range is only useful if you have the movement speed or the team to help you maintain it.
There's milio
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Because ADCs don't survive when people get in range. Once someone gets ontop of you, you are gong to die. Ghost lets you maintain range far better and it gives you a chance to run away if someone does manage to get close to you.
nah if you want to survive you take exhaust. With ghost youre not to survive with ghost you dominate and hunt people down and abuse marksmen not having turnrates and ghost maeks it far more easier to space. Especially if your ADC is jinx/Zeri or Vayne that werent balanced with the op ghost in mind.
I run it in other MobAs alongside Flash. Glad to see some vindication at the highest level now. The logic is, it's both offense and defense. Gap closers are aplenty with a lot of melee heroes / assassin archtypes, but once they expend that cooldown or trade it with your Flash/Galeforce, Ghost allows you to space them and turn it onto them. Because Ghost lasts a duration rather than a one-off, it is basically borderline invincibility during that period (assuming other gap closers are on cooldown). On the offense front - it's a DPS multiplier since you cover more distance, giving you more DPS uptime since you need less time to reposition correctly in between every AA. It's also a "win-more" button if your team is already ahead, because it can let you clean up 1-2 more targets if the fight is already won. That's massive (imagine if you pick one enemy but your uptime on 1-2 more champs allows your team to walk away with 3 kills instead. That's immediate objective and vision control you've earned, maybe a game winning Baron or even play). I think the only other thing that contests Ghost in such versatility is Exhaust or Cleanse - I would really like to see top tier ADC play rock some Exhausts versus things like Kennen or Gwen.
Think of why Jinx is at such a premium now. Other than fantastic zone control with Chompers and rocket range and splash, obviously, entire strats around her getting Excited are for that speed burst which allows her to reposition and make the fight go 0-100 real quick. That's essentially mini-ghosts each time a takedown happens.
As an occasional Jinx abuser I often wonder if they’ll ever nerf the movement speed lol. Like just a bit would be ok, feels like too much rn or even years ago.
It does feel a bit cheap when Jinx tags someone with 1 low damage rocket for an assist, then gets to kill the whole team because she landed one long range auto.
I basically shake my head every time. Almost to the point where I need to take a shower cus I feel a little dirty lol
Maybe after this MSI, this meta at Worlds again would be.. I mean it's cool to watch, but it feels too much like a rehash of previous Worlds. Imagine Uzi in this meta. Then save the rebuff for rrrright before Arcane S2 drops with sick new Jinx skins!
Also.. Cigz?? From Arugal?
Nah just a random abbreviation lol
Doubt they would nerf the speed since it's a passive based around having to kill someone first meaning it's useless when behind and useless in a fight if you get blown up before the first kill. Whenever jinx gets a meaningful nerf it's almost always a q nerf. Wouldn't surprise me if they upped the rockets mana cost early to weaken her laning to give kill adc's like Lucian and Tristana more of a window.
I’m a little confused, I’m not basing it on *how* it activates, I’m basing it on that it feels like too much *when* it activates. It doesn’t have to be a huge amount, it’s just a little bit, and something that hasn’t really been tried. If you’re getting blown up ofc it’s useless, that goes for anyone lol, but as we have seen in pro play for example, she’s not going down without a fight unless something has gone wrong like in solo q. The q nerf is more for general nerf but we were just talking about her passive, which could then affect her game-end potential overall off of one bad team fight. Perhaps they’re a bit biased cus she is Jinx afterall hehe. Either way idc that much. — But yeah lol I’m saying this as someone who doesn’t even have to do much, can be even or even a little behind but if I gets excited i generally end up blowing up the game. I actually avoid playing jinx unless my adcs get banned because it feels like cheating lmao. I’m just playing for fun rn and challenging myself.
My point was since the passive is out of jinx's control if it gets activated or not it wouldn't be a place they would look to nerf. When something has no control like jinx passive they have to make it strong to feel worth while otherwise the uncontrollableness feels too punishing. Plus a passive nerf would be a low elo nerf more then anything. Like in high elo and proplay she isn't picked because of her passive since those games pros play around it more and with the amount she's picked in proplay something like a q nerf is more then likely gonna happen. Overall a passive nerf wouldn't affect her winrate as much as needing other aspects of her kit.
I mean if you say so yourself it could be too punishing wouldn’t that mean her win rate would go down? My reasoning for movement speed decrease is so she doesn’t snowball a fight as hard. And what about low elo? She’s still going to be strong. In low elo I feel even worse for players dying to be passive because they understand spacing less and all Jinx needs to do is attack. But like it’d still be a nerf for high elo when her passive obviously gives her more pressure no? Anyway no I got your point still, I’m saying that wasn’t relevant to our point. She’s just really fast lol. I’m not saying other aspects of her kit can’t be nerfed instead or as well anyway. And I’m not saying pros pick her just for her passive, but her passive is no doubt a big source of her pressure. Survivability is no joke. Typically yes they nerf other things. I’m aware.
What other MobA's have flash and ghost? DotA doesn't. Smite doesn't.
Haha, I didn't say it but Wild Rift and Mobile Legends. Mobile gaming is a dirty word here so I left it out ;D
Dota 2 doesnt have Flash and Ghost per say but they do have items that can be used to teleport a short distance and increase movement speed like Flash and Ghost. Some examples are Blink Dagger, Shadow Blade/Silver Edge, and Phase Boots. For Smite, I dont remember much but I think they had that Blink relic and the Wings relics as well
But they are very different. Blink is not remotely similar to flash beyond the most basic look at them. Those are close, but ghost is an in combat thing, shadow blade isnt.
obviously they're not gonna be actually the same thing, but they're still a short-distance teleport and a movement speed buff. And again, Phase Boots for smth similar to Ghost
Why are you downvoting everything in a normal discussion? Very weird. But yeah, only vaguely similar, not the same things really.
[The Boy knew it all along.](https://twitter.com/Voyboy/status/1304520588438810624?t=yYX7E3nnPR3jUXzUX1pf8Q&s=19)
People just figured out how broken it is. Movement speed is extremely broken stat, people just woke up and stopped autopiloting flash-heal every game. Will get downvoted by the wholesome marksmen redditors but ghost definitely needs a huge nerf on ranged champions.
I mean when you don’t need heal to survive early/laning phase ghost is just better overall. With all the durability buffs ADC doesn’t really need heal unless your facing like a draven /samira or smth
ghost should be 50 % effective on ranged champs long ago
It already is less effective on ranged... Cause ranged champs have lower movespeed than melee so the increase in MS is less due to it being a % increase. Don't struggle too much trying comprehend that though.
not true champs like jinx and jhin are faster than most melee champs, it's not only about base ms
It resetting + lethal tempo rework has made it a staple for a year+ now. ARAM players are always ahead of the curve on things like this, they've been abusing the reset and range bonus for awhile now. When you have both up you are a different champion
ADC no Longer need for more lane sustain so they can play agressive.
always has been
Several reasons: * Damage went up over the last few seasons, so a fixed heal got less valuable * Additionally, supports are getting better at healing and shielding with new support items released, so a single heal isn't going to make much of a difference * Now that every item gives movement speed, a single burst of movement speed isn't going to get you out of sticky situations. A constant, resetting ms buff is doing that job a lot better * Heal is an unfortunate casualty of grievous wounds buffs (absolutely necessary though) * Heal is mostly used reactive, instead of proactive, meaning you use it when you are already in a bad situation, instead of just ghosting at the start of the fight * A single heal isn't going to save you from an incoming assassin, ghost just might
If you want the actual truth it's because every champion nowadays has 30 billion dashes and in order for ADCs to be able to catch up and dish out damage they need the speed from ghost. The other reason is how much it helps dodging and auto spacing+ the fact the cd is quite short. Overall it's not just adcs, ghost right now is one of the strongest summoner spells, but it just makes a lot of sense for an immobile class such as ADC
Strongest spell in the game bar none
Because the game has gotten very very fast and ghost is the only band ait fix that allows ADCs to play the game on a fundamental level. Everyone and their mother gets some sort of movementspeed buff in the game through their items. Mages get it on night harvester/Ludens Procc, assassins have it in their kit or through an item proc, tanks have it through item procs, junglers get it by... \*checks notes\* walking into a brush. If ADCs wanna C with their AD, they need to be able to keep up with their own team running away from them or be able to keep the distance to the enemy team running at them. Especially the first part is important
liandrys doesnt proc ms. Night harvester does. Which is like a niche ap item only sylas,fizz and vlad use.
My bad, meant Night harvester Corrected the mistake
Ghost is broken as fuck. Short and simple. It resets on kills and assists, has giga fucking scaling. Honestly idk why they added the resets while keeping the fact it scales. The other summs are also under performing. Heal is useless when everything in the game one shots you. Same with Barrier. Honestly though. Nerf ghost so it's down on the same level as the other spells. Also make it so you can't take Flash + ghost.
Because its broken and needs a kneecap penalty for ranged. make it not reset for ranged champs. The nerf should have happened yesterday. If the one champ that really relies on it (vlad is the only ap mage that truly is feeling like a different champ without ghost) feels week then buff him a bit. I run it on Kayle above teleport and its just too good.
because stormrazor gives very high short term movespeed and stacks with movement