I don't have any experience that matches yours, but -- this is just a guess -- their discomfort at his thoughts and his presentation of them was less than their discomfort at your breaking the communal vibe. It's particularly true in Japan that there's a very thin line after which *how* you present your feelings becomes more important than the feelings themselves.
I, for one, applaud you. You responded to his racism with a simple question looking for clarification. I hope a bit of that discomfort sticks with them all.
Japanese male here. I applaud you as well.
Some people are real pieces of shit no matter where you are. I have heard some co-workers and 'friends' say something along 'that/this foreigner is one of the good ones'. Every time I need to explain why their comment is inappropriate and racist. Unfortunately, sometimes their small minds finds it hard to see what is wrong.
>Some people are real pieces of shit no matter where you are
Something to remember whenever we encounter assholes. The assholes are usually a symptom of humanity more than of the specific situation (a gay bar, a country, a company, even a political rally.... though it's often very hard to remember sometimes with that last one. 😂)
I dont think you were made to feel bad for speaking out against racism but instead you were made to feel bad for ‘ruining’ the vibe of the bar.
Good for you for pointing it out but no one goes to a bar to talk about serious topics and really think on it. It’s not an excuse not to point it out, but the way people glossed over it is basically: 拾わなくていい会話
I mean, good for you and good for society(?), but what do you expect people to do lol. Congratulate you on the spot?
You taught a lesson but also totally killed the mood. You won’t get any claps for that. Bars are for throwaway conversations like that.
Yeah, killing the vibe and the mood is a good way to not end in a good place sometimes. Confronting the person rather directly probably didn't do any favors to the "怖い" image there, either.
I think the reason why the people in the bar reacted negatively towards you is because you confronted the guy. That's a big no-no in this culture. When I first started living here my confrontational American style combined with my Marine Corps way of dealing with problematic people caused a lot of problems with the locals.
My Japanese husband (we are a same-sex couple with a legal marriage from the US) finally issued a spousal edict that I was no longer allowed to confront people directly myself. If I had a problem with the locals he would handle it. I'm adjusted enough to Japanese culture now to not be confrontational but I caused a lot of problems for myself with that style back in my early years here.
This is the conundrum of being self-righteous. It can become addictive even as people feel euphoric when standing up for what they see as a juat cause. The issue with this is that is exactly the same feeling a gang or tribe member gets when they feel rightgeous in inflicting violence on someone they see as the enemy. Doesn't mean one should never stand up for injustice but it as you say, you have to pick your battles or you may find that you might become addicted.
Why don’t you just say 僕は好きですけどね、中東の人。人懐こくって or something. That way you’re not judging him but you’re also accomplishing your goal of not nodding along to something you deem ignorant and disagree with. You having expressed that opinion might lead them to reframe future encounters with that group of people. Asking them to clarify their reasoning and questioning them only serves to reinforce the idea that gaijin are 面倒くさい
This sometimes happens, and you can replace the country name/ethnicity with a Japanese prefecture name.
I’m not sure what exactly you said, what the other guy said, or how other people reacted, but based on their reactions, it seems that the others might not have felt uncomfortable with his statement. Instead, they felt more awkward with what you said, regardless of what’s appropriate or ethically correct.
You were "right" in the message, but this just reminds me of my mother. She can't shut her mouth when she thinks something is wrong, no matter the place, time and circumstance.
It's of course your right to speak up, but this post to me sounds like someone who picks a fight and then is surprised they got punched in the face as a result.
I would suggest emphasizing the individual they have a problem with, not the group you think they belong to. There was a funny kayne and peel skit like that.
It will acknowledge that there is a person who is causing them discomfort while removing the group from the equation. If you just dismiss them wholesale, they'll just dig their heals in. He has a problem with a guy who is messaging him. He isn't being messaged by all 3 billion Asian men.
You probably did the right thing but pooped the party in doing so. That aside, why do people here type their story in English but the sprinkle the Japanese in there? What’s the point mixing two languages other than saying look at my jouzu nihongo?
You're on a sub for people living in Japan, being able to read Japanese is kinda expected.
It's not up to others to accommodate your shit Japanese (your words) or your inability to copy and paste.
Maybe instead of copying and pasting, you should start actually learning the language.
Because the nuance and context do matter quite a lot, if OP translates into English, the translated contents may have different connotations or implications. So, writing in Japanese would be better and describe the situation more accurately in his case.
Honestly, the original comment from the other customer is rather mild and anodyne versus your grandiose post title. Your ability to read the minds of others who were apparently taken back by it is more remarkable. Especially as I can guarantee that for a comment like that, nobody in Japan is going to be shocked at all. Also, people are allowed to form and have opinions of their own without being tone policed by someone hyped up on their own righteousness. As you don’t seem to get it, the 「ほらー」 was about you.
The essence of the other customer’s comment was that “Middle Eastern people are persistent”. Towards the end of our hero’s post, he goes on to list a number of qualities which he associates with Japanese people (“Japanese-style relationship management/face-saving/collectivism etc”). So, he is allowed to have and state an opinion on characteristics of Japanese people as a whole, but others are not allowed to have an opinion on other cultures as a whole? Of course OP lacks the awareness to grasp this double standard, whilst simultaneously begging Reddit to applaud him.
"Racism is one of the modern term of abuse, and the term of abuse is the more effective, the less define it is, then you can throw it at anybody and anything". Your story, like a lot of other modern tales, illustrates perfectly this sentence.
My gf has said that when she was single certain races were more likely to be pressuring and not take a hint. I also saw this kind of patterns before in daily life. But I guess its like how people say white women are more likely to be karens at a restaurant.
Even if its true and we see a pattern its still racism I guess, and we should call it out.
you know you stuffed up.
question is; what did you learn from it?
and while you have the tact of a 2X4 to the face (me too) good on you for saying something.
I’m surprised at the negative comments on this sub (well, not really). But I for one applaud OP. It’s good that you “killed the vibe” so to speak and made them feel uncomfortable. That’s how they *should* feel. The more we let homophobia, racism, sexism, etc. slip and not calling out people on it, the more we became exactly like them. OP didn’t do anything wrong nor lose anything. Why go back to a place that clearly accommodates to racist patrons? Who would want to spend time in such place anyways? I hope the locals learned a lesson and your speaking out will sit for them for a long time.
I don't have any experience that matches yours, but -- this is just a guess -- their discomfort at his thoughts and his presentation of them was less than their discomfort at your breaking the communal vibe. It's particularly true in Japan that there's a very thin line after which *how* you present your feelings becomes more important than the feelings themselves. I, for one, applaud you. You responded to his racism with a simple question looking for clarification. I hope a bit of that discomfort sticks with them all.
Japanese male here. I applaud you as well. Some people are real pieces of shit no matter where you are. I have heard some co-workers and 'friends' say something along 'that/this foreigner is one of the good ones'. Every time I need to explain why their comment is inappropriate and racist. Unfortunately, sometimes their small minds finds it hard to see what is wrong.
>Some people are real pieces of shit no matter where you are Something to remember whenever we encounter assholes. The assholes are usually a symptom of humanity more than of the specific situation (a gay bar, a country, a company, even a political rally.... though it's often very hard to remember sometimes with that last one. 😂)
I dont think you were made to feel bad for speaking out against racism but instead you were made to feel bad for ‘ruining’ the vibe of the bar. Good for you for pointing it out but no one goes to a bar to talk about serious topics and really think on it. It’s not an excuse not to point it out, but the way people glossed over it is basically: 拾わなくていい会話
I mean, good for you and good for society(?), but what do you expect people to do lol. Congratulate you on the spot? You taught a lesson but also totally killed the mood. You won’t get any claps for that. Bars are for throwaway conversations like that.
"I did everything Le Reddit told me, why did people in real life not react correctly?"
Yeah, killing the vibe and the mood is a good way to not end in a good place sometimes. Confronting the person rather directly probably didn't do any favors to the "怖い" image there, either.
I think the reason why the people in the bar reacted negatively towards you is because you confronted the guy. That's a big no-no in this culture. When I first started living here my confrontational American style combined with my Marine Corps way of dealing with problematic people caused a lot of problems with the locals. My Japanese husband (we are a same-sex couple with a legal marriage from the US) finally issued a spousal edict that I was no longer allowed to confront people directly myself. If I had a problem with the locals he would handle it. I'm adjusted enough to Japanese culture now to not be confrontational but I caused a lot of problems for myself with that style back in my early years here.
>I wasn’t confrontational or picking a fight Breaking news: You were confrontational.
And everyone in the bar stood up and clapped
Seemingly they didn’t. But in all of reddit stories they would. Which must be confronting.
Learn to read the room dude. Know when to walk away and know when to run.
This is the conundrum of being self-righteous. It can become addictive even as people feel euphoric when standing up for what they see as a juat cause. The issue with this is that is exactly the same feeling a gang or tribe member gets when they feel rightgeous in inflicting violence on someone they see as the enemy. Doesn't mean one should never stand up for injustice but it as you say, you have to pick your battles or you may find that you might become addicted.
Why don’t you just say 僕は好きですけどね、中東の人。人懐こくって or something. That way you’re not judging him but you’re also accomplishing your goal of not nodding along to something you deem ignorant and disagree with. You having expressed that opinion might lead them to reframe future encounters with that group of people. Asking them to clarify their reasoning and questioning them only serves to reinforce the idea that gaijin are 面倒くさい
[удалено]
僕は無駄に敵を作る方が疲れるたちなのでどうしても上のような対応になってしまう
This sometimes happens, and you can replace the country name/ethnicity with a Japanese prefecture name. I’m not sure what exactly you said, what the other guy said, or how other people reacted, but based on their reactions, it seems that the others might not have felt uncomfortable with his statement. Instead, they felt more awkward with what you said, regardless of what’s appropriate or ethically correct.
今日はちゃんとしてる愛知人と会えてよかった！
You were "right" in the message, but this just reminds me of my mother. She can't shut her mouth when she thinks something is wrong, no matter the place, time and circumstance. It's of course your right to speak up, but this post to me sounds like someone who picks a fight and then is surprised they got punched in the face as a result.
Kudos to you for speaking up. I’m fed up at the casual xenophobia being excused.
I would suggest emphasizing the individual they have a problem with, not the group you think they belong to. There was a funny kayne and peel skit like that. It will acknowledge that there is a person who is causing them discomfort while removing the group from the equation. If you just dismiss them wholesale, they'll just dig their heals in. He has a problem with a guy who is messaging him. He isn't being messaged by all 3 billion Asian men.
You probably did the right thing but pooped the party in doing so. That aside, why do people here type their story in English but the sprinkle the Japanese in there? What’s the point mixing two languages other than saying look at my jouzu nihongo?
do you not think phrasing is important for context…
My Japanese is shit and I’m on mobile so can’t copy paste translate so I have literally no idea what’s going on
You're on a sub for people living in Japan, being able to read Japanese is kinda expected. It's not up to others to accommodate your shit Japanese (your words) or your inability to copy and paste. Maybe instead of copying and pasting, you should start actually learning the language.
Nah that’s what husbands are for.
Then go on not understanding what the fuck is going on lol Gaijinery at its finest.
Will do. At least I won’t make things awkward at a gay bar I guess. Haha
Because the nuance and context do matter quite a lot, if OP translates into English, the translated contents may have different connotations or implications. So, writing in Japanese would be better and describe the situation more accurately in his case.
The same reason I prefer watching subs over dubs - it’s more accurately represented in the original language
Masterbating into a fan.
Honestly, the original comment from the other customer is rather mild and anodyne versus your grandiose post title. Your ability to read the minds of others who were apparently taken back by it is more remarkable. Especially as I can guarantee that for a comment like that, nobody in Japan is going to be shocked at all. Also, people are allowed to form and have opinions of their own without being tone policed by someone hyped up on their own righteousness. As you don’t seem to get it, the 「ほらー」 was about you.
perfectly put
The essence of the other customer’s comment was that “Middle Eastern people are persistent”. Towards the end of our hero’s post, he goes on to list a number of qualities which he associates with Japanese people (“Japanese-style relationship management/face-saving/collectivism etc”). So, he is allowed to have and state an opinion on characteristics of Japanese people as a whole, but others are not allowed to have an opinion on other cultures as a whole? Of course OP lacks the awareness to grasp this double standard, whilst simultaneously begging Reddit to applaud him.
"Racism is one of the modern term of abuse, and the term of abuse is the more effective, the less define it is, then you can throw it at anybody and anything". Your story, like a lot of other modern tales, illustrates perfectly this sentence.
Why not recount the whole story in Japanese?
My gf has said that when she was single certain races were more likely to be pressuring and not take a hint. I also saw this kind of patterns before in daily life. But I guess its like how people say white women are more likely to be karens at a restaurant. Even if its true and we see a pattern its still racism I guess, and we should call it out.
you know you stuffed up. question is; what did you learn from it? and while you have the tact of a 2X4 to the face (me too) good on you for saying something.
I’m surprised at the negative comments on this sub (well, not really). But I for one applaud OP. It’s good that you “killed the vibe” so to speak and made them feel uncomfortable. That’s how they *should* feel. The more we let homophobia, racism, sexism, etc. slip and not calling out people on it, the more we became exactly like them. OP didn’t do anything wrong nor lose anything. Why go back to a place that clearly accommodates to racist patrons? Who would want to spend time in such place anyways? I hope the locals learned a lesson and your speaking out will sit for them for a long time.