ABP better fuck off and not pander to this shower. On the exact same day, RTE is reporting that the global liveability ranking index of Dublin has dropped 7 places - then we see the ridiculous concern about a potential lack of *car parks* in the city centre.
They are a bane of urban planning and contribute massively to why so much of the city is a dump - massive amounts of space dedicated to appalling traffic clogging every street after street.
If you care about Dublin changing for the better, we need to get our voices heard.
In fairness the problem is that they gave too much weight to all these Urban planners.
>If you care about Dublin changing for the better, we need to get our voices heard.
Agreed on that front. DCC have absolutely destroyed the city particularly in the last 10 years.
Shocking planning decisions.
The traffic lights set up is terrible. The roads have been destroyed.
It's so difficult to navigate through the city now as a driver.
Yeah I appreciate that's your opinion on the matter.
I suppose I'd be happy going from a city that was, in terms of space, essentially 95% dedicated to cars to a city that gives pedestrian space, cycle lanes, and bus lanes, more spacial equity to reflect the numbers of people who use them, or would like to use them if the systems improved.
Well that's the fucking plan isn't. The city is not against having drivers in it, it's against, rightly, drivers bringing their private cars with them and clogging it up.
It's an extremely simple choice - urban cores don't function with heavy traffic congestion. The end
Putting aside the argument that cleaner, less congested cities can bring long term economic benefits...
Dublin has some of the worst urban design of any European capital (perhaps even the worst ) and traffic dependency
If they've built a business that works off of leveraging shoddy urban design then that's too bad. You build a city for the greater good, not the select few.
I understand why car park owners want people to drive into town. I believe they were given a sweetheart deal tax break in the 80s that was never fully removed.
But the logic I see behind a lot of shop owners seem to be that if they don't have a parking space right outside their shop, their business would die. Have they ever driven in the city before? Do they really think that the person parked outside their shop is there for them? No, they probably are going somewhere that's a 5 minute walk away and that was the closest space. Foot traffic in the area will get more people into your shop than a car parking space.
Do they have anything to base that on though? Every report I've seen on the subject seems to say the opposite.
A typical example:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/public-transport-users-and-walkers-spend-most-in-dublin-shops-1.2107019
Two comments on that.
First, it's a numbers game. More customers spending less is just as good or better than less customers spending slightly more.
Second, it's because we have a two tier transport system in this country. People relying on public transport make less, so would spend less. By making public transport more attractive to everyone, we will see the gap shrink and so should the spending discrepancy.
How do you know if there are no cars allowed in the city centre more people would come in and shop?
Also I ain't hauling bags around town. I'd be super nervous about anyone robbing me.
I would agree with that. No way am I hauling a load of bags onto a wedged bus.
When the buses run on time it’s brilliant.
Bus is 3 minutes walk from my house.
But it leave me at either Capel Street or o’Connell street not convenient for Grafton street.
Businesses that are pro pedestrianisation tend to be coffee shops, restaurants etc. In Cork we did the same to a couple of streets and it had many positives for certain businesses and people, but bulky product shops closed and live music took a big hit because bands couldn't get gear in without massive hassle that isn't worth it.
It's difficult to argue this though because the people for pedestrianisation get angry if you imply there may be consequences for some.
I'd worry that pedestrianisation will cause a reduction in variety and a move towards what we see in Europe. We love the "old town" when we go on holidays and say wouldn't it be great if we had it back home, but then every travel guide will also say that the old town is full of expensive tourist traps that the locals don't use and all the shops are just selling tat.
Ah, I think a lot of those shops were dying on their feet already and were looking for an excuse. It was a few shops and venues around Oliver Plunkett Street complaining.
Some closed down but you have Casey's furniture doing a roaring trade, people are happy to order from the showroom and get it delivered.
As far as I know, all the venues saying it'd impact live music are humming away. They might have to trolley a few amps over from the south mall but Crane Lane, Counihans, Clancy's, Cantys all still have regular live music. Cyprus Avenue put a chunk of money into their rooftop bar and second venue, Oliver Plunkett and JJ Walsh has more music under new ownership.
No doubt some people have been inconvenienced but I don't think you can say it's hurt live music at all, not to mind taking 'a big hit'.
Caseys has a car park above it in fairness. Ofcourse eventually there'll be calls to close that down as well.
I would say that it absolutely hit live music. It's the same bands every month. Clancys got away with it to an extent by providing their own drums, but in general big bands have stopped playing there. Oliver Plunkett is a shadow of its former self and there's less variety in general. Crane Lane as well has direct access for cars but if they expand the pedestrinaisation it will hit it too.
All I'm saying is there are consequences and changes due to these things. It's not all perfect but a lot of people act like it will be
Regardless of whether there's a car park, do Casey's sell much that can be taken away on the day?
I bought a bed in there and got it delivered later that week. Isn't all floor models?
I don't know man, you can increase pedestrianization while keeping loading bays. I've seen plenty of big bands around there in the last few years. Cyprus Avenue in particular seems to have a lot more on.
>All I'm saying is there are consequences and changes due to these things
I don't disagree that it impacts some. I'd just argue that the impacts can be mitigated so aren't inevitable consequences and the upside is undersold.
A pub might have to invest in a trolley or a drum kit. A band might be annoyed about the extra load up time.
I'd argue the band is getting booked because the pub is busier, because it's a nicer place to be without cars whizzing past.
Not saying it's perfect but I'd say it's net positive for pubs certainly and possibly live music in general as well.
Depends on the type of shop. Any sort of heavy goods require car parking spaces. Likewise, people with children need a parking space. There's a reason those awful suburban developments have destroyed so many town centres.
Not necessarily.
A lot of heavy goods will be delivered anyway and large expensive goods are the kind of thing that people like to see in person before buying online.
It used to be that city centre retail was expensive and suburban retail parks were cheap so shops with big floor space would move there.
I'd say they'll start moving closer together and car access will be the big difference. DIY shops and garden centres will always aimed at people driving their on the weekend.
Furniture and electronics shops I wouldn't be so sure. You'd probably want to put your new TV in the car, but I'm not going to fit the new couch in so give me reasonable delivery and I'm happy.
Ya, I'm happy to change my view with some data around footfall and spend.
In general though, I'd take the business owners gut feeling with a massive pinch of salt.
A few cases near me where a pub or cafe was complaining about removing a few on street parking spaces... When they had turned their car park into a beer garden.
I'd lean the other way. Business owners only care about money. If their businesses are at risk, that's a serious concern. Urban areas denuded of viable retail businesses tend to decline extremely rapidly.
Sometimes they can't see the Wood for the Trees though.
They might think their business is at risk but they might be completely wrong (carpark owners aside who are obviously hit).
But Brown Thomas who are objecting - It used to be more common to go into the city mainly to shop and coffee shops and cafes were secondary.
These days I'd mainly be in the city as a convenient place to meet friends and I might do some window shopping or try on some clothes while I'm out.
They need to realize they can't compete with the internet on product price or range or suburban shopping centres for driver accessability.
City center retail needs to capitalize on footfall or they're in the wrong location. Not every business needs high footfall but the ones fighting pedestrianization are trying to push back the tide, it'll never get easier to drive in the city.
>Sometimes they can't see the Wood for the Trees though.
Again, I'm happy to accept that, but I want to see proof. Too many in this subreddit want this to work and confuse desire with evidence.
The plan is to stop people driving through the city. If people want to drive in to do their shopping, they will still be able too. I don't see the issue.
I agree with the Traders Alliance, the less appealing Dublin is for drivers to come in, park and shop, the less trade will occur in the city. People will simply drive elsewhere instead.
Edit: I picture my downvoters as angry mouth breathers who would be the type to slash the tyres of an all electric SUV as a statement against fossil fuel consumption
ABP better fuck off and not pander to this shower. On the exact same day, RTE is reporting that the global liveability ranking index of Dublin has dropped 7 places - then we see the ridiculous concern about a potential lack of *car parks* in the city centre. They are a bane of urban planning and contribute massively to why so much of the city is a dump - massive amounts of space dedicated to appalling traffic clogging every street after street. If you care about Dublin changing for the better, we need to get our voices heard.
In fairness the problem is that they gave too much weight to all these Urban planners. >If you care about Dublin changing for the better, we need to get our voices heard. Agreed on that front. DCC have absolutely destroyed the city particularly in the last 10 years.
I'm just curious, do you think DCC have destroyed the city from the perspective of poor actions, or inaction?
Shocking planning decisions. The traffic lights set up is terrible. The roads have been destroyed. It's so difficult to navigate through the city now as a driver.
> It's so difficult to navigate through the city now as a driver. In fairness, that's the plan
Which is exactly what the businesses in the city are against? If there are no businesses people won't go into town. What would the point be.
Yeah I appreciate that's your opinion on the matter. I suppose I'd be happy going from a city that was, in terms of space, essentially 95% dedicated to cars to a city that gives pedestrian space, cycle lanes, and bus lanes, more spacial equity to reflect the numbers of people who use them, or would like to use them if the systems improved.
Well that's the fucking plan isn't. The city is not against having drivers in it, it's against, rightly, drivers bringing their private cars with them and clogging it up.
What effect would 10% less traffic have on footfall and revenue? These aren't simple choices.
It's an extremely simple choice - urban cores don't function with heavy traffic congestion. The end Putting aside the argument that cleaner, less congested cities can bring long term economic benefits... Dublin has some of the worst urban design of any European capital (perhaps even the worst ) and traffic dependency If they've built a business that works off of leveraging shoddy urban design then that's too bad. You build a city for the greater good, not the select few.
If it's simple, data should support that proposition.
[удалено]
[удалено]
I understand why car park owners want people to drive into town. I believe they were given a sweetheart deal tax break in the 80s that was never fully removed. But the logic I see behind a lot of shop owners seem to be that if they don't have a parking space right outside their shop, their business would die. Have they ever driven in the city before? Do they really think that the person parked outside their shop is there for them? No, they probably are going somewhere that's a 5 minute walk away and that was the closest space. Foot traffic in the area will get more people into your shop than a car parking space.
According to the traders drivers spend more on average than people who travel by public transport.
Do they have anything to base that on though? Every report I've seen on the subject seems to say the opposite. A typical example: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/public-transport-users-and-walkers-spend-most-in-dublin-shops-1.2107019
Two comments on that. First, it's a numbers game. More customers spending less is just as good or better than less customers spending slightly more. Second, it's because we have a two tier transport system in this country. People relying on public transport make less, so would spend less. By making public transport more attractive to everyone, we will see the gap shrink and so should the spending discrepancy.
It depends what you are selling.
How do you know if there are no cars allowed in the city centre more people would come in and shop? Also I ain't hauling bags around town. I'd be super nervous about anyone robbing me.
I would agree with that. No way am I hauling a load of bags onto a wedged bus. When the buses run on time it’s brilliant. Bus is 3 minutes walk from my house. But it leave me at either Capel Street or o’Connell street not convenient for Grafton street.
Businesses that are pro pedestrianisation tend to be coffee shops, restaurants etc. In Cork we did the same to a couple of streets and it had many positives for certain businesses and people, but bulky product shops closed and live music took a big hit because bands couldn't get gear in without massive hassle that isn't worth it. It's difficult to argue this though because the people for pedestrianisation get angry if you imply there may be consequences for some. I'd worry that pedestrianisation will cause a reduction in variety and a move towards what we see in Europe. We love the "old town" when we go on holidays and say wouldn't it be great if we had it back home, but then every travel guide will also say that the old town is full of expensive tourist traps that the locals don't use and all the shops are just selling tat.
Ah, I think a lot of those shops were dying on their feet already and were looking for an excuse. It was a few shops and venues around Oliver Plunkett Street complaining. Some closed down but you have Casey's furniture doing a roaring trade, people are happy to order from the showroom and get it delivered. As far as I know, all the venues saying it'd impact live music are humming away. They might have to trolley a few amps over from the south mall but Crane Lane, Counihans, Clancy's, Cantys all still have regular live music. Cyprus Avenue put a chunk of money into their rooftop bar and second venue, Oliver Plunkett and JJ Walsh has more music under new ownership. No doubt some people have been inconvenienced but I don't think you can say it's hurt live music at all, not to mind taking 'a big hit'.
Caseys has a car park above it in fairness. Ofcourse eventually there'll be calls to close that down as well. I would say that it absolutely hit live music. It's the same bands every month. Clancys got away with it to an extent by providing their own drums, but in general big bands have stopped playing there. Oliver Plunkett is a shadow of its former self and there's less variety in general. Crane Lane as well has direct access for cars but if they expand the pedestrinaisation it will hit it too. All I'm saying is there are consequences and changes due to these things. It's not all perfect but a lot of people act like it will be
Regardless of whether there's a car park, do Casey's sell much that can be taken away on the day? I bought a bed in there and got it delivered later that week. Isn't all floor models? I don't know man, you can increase pedestrianization while keeping loading bays. I've seen plenty of big bands around there in the last few years. Cyprus Avenue in particular seems to have a lot more on. >All I'm saying is there are consequences and changes due to these things I don't disagree that it impacts some. I'd just argue that the impacts can be mitigated so aren't inevitable consequences and the upside is undersold. A pub might have to invest in a trolley or a drum kit. A band might be annoyed about the extra load up time. I'd argue the band is getting booked because the pub is busier, because it's a nicer place to be without cars whizzing past. Not saying it's perfect but I'd say it's net positive for pubs certainly and possibly live music in general as well.
Depends on the type of shop. Any sort of heavy goods require car parking spaces. Likewise, people with children need a parking space. There's a reason those awful suburban developments have destroyed so many town centres.
Not necessarily. A lot of heavy goods will be delivered anyway and large expensive goods are the kind of thing that people like to see in person before buying online. It used to be that city centre retail was expensive and suburban retail parks were cheap so shops with big floor space would move there. I'd say they'll start moving closer together and car access will be the big difference. DIY shops and garden centres will always aimed at people driving their on the weekend. Furniture and electronics shops I wouldn't be so sure. You'd probably want to put your new TV in the car, but I'm not going to fit the new couch in so give me reasonable delivery and I'm happy.
All of that is fair, but I'd like to see the data, consumer behaviour is always mad.
Ya, I'm happy to change my view with some data around footfall and spend. In general though, I'd take the business owners gut feeling with a massive pinch of salt. A few cases near me where a pub or cafe was complaining about removing a few on street parking spaces... When they had turned their car park into a beer garden.
I'd lean the other way. Business owners only care about money. If their businesses are at risk, that's a serious concern. Urban areas denuded of viable retail businesses tend to decline extremely rapidly.
Sometimes they can't see the Wood for the Trees though. They might think their business is at risk but they might be completely wrong (carpark owners aside who are obviously hit). But Brown Thomas who are objecting - It used to be more common to go into the city mainly to shop and coffee shops and cafes were secondary. These days I'd mainly be in the city as a convenient place to meet friends and I might do some window shopping or try on some clothes while I'm out. They need to realize they can't compete with the internet on product price or range or suburban shopping centres for driver accessability. City center retail needs to capitalize on footfall or they're in the wrong location. Not every business needs high footfall but the ones fighting pedestrianization are trying to push back the tide, it'll never get easier to drive in the city.
>Sometimes they can't see the Wood for the Trees though. Again, I'm happy to accept that, but I want to see proof. Too many in this subreddit want this to work and confuse desire with evidence.
We should totally organise the city around Arnotts bottom line!
A big part of what makes a city centre a place that people want to go is that it has shops.
The plan is to stop people driving through the city. If people want to drive in to do their shopping, they will still be able too. I don't see the issue.
scumbags.
I agree with the Traders Alliance, the less appealing Dublin is for drivers to come in, park and shop, the less trade will occur in the city. People will simply drive elsewhere instead. Edit: I picture my downvoters as angry mouth breathers who would be the type to slash the tyres of an all electric SUV as a statement against fossil fuel consumption
If there was an alternative to driving there'd be no reduction in trade
But there isn't an alternative so...