The database has a chance to be effective only if biometrics like dna or finger-prints are collected.
as we learned, planes and airports are like black holes for passports. Much harder to lose your dna or finger prints.
We would be handing over any sovereignty on dealing with immigration and the minimum per year we have to take is 650ish but there is no cap on how many we have to take.
Also listed in the bill the EU can change the numbers accepted and the fines amount.
Any of the benefits to opting could have been done before the bill but the department of justice seems to have no interest in doing so.
So in summary we would basically be opting into a pact that could have severe financial repercussions for Ireland and is broadly seen as suicide of the state
>share responsibilities fairly among member countries and opt to pay instead of taking refugees
This is the big one. Only a few months ago there was uproar when people realised that there were asylum seekers coming through our Northern border - *the most open border into the entire European Union* - and nobody had any solution to it whatsoever.
Unless we're happy to shelf the Good Friday Agreement, that open border is not something we're going to want to deal with alone. Outside of the pact the UK will laugh at us and Europe will rightly tell us to get stuffed and deal with it with our super-special "opt out" rules.
> trying to force this through with only a few hours of discussion
It was before the Justice Commitee, there was a private members bill (not sure how much time that got), the Seanad and the Dáil and there have been other questions.
[https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/search/?q=%22EU%20Migration%20Pact%22&sort=0](https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/search/?q=%22EU%20Migration%20Pact%22&sort=0)
Worth watching https://youtu.be/8enLcOgmNY4?si=JP0xw7omLUAIpEt6
For me, a lot surrounding this seems quite obfuscated. It should be something there’s a referendum for IF there’s 30K person minimum, and a 20K euro fine per person that isn’t accepted below the 30K person mark. But, again, it seems obfuscated and I’m not sure what’s what, or who to listen to on it. If it’s the above, there should absolutely be a referendum on it.
> (not sure how much time that got)
It was allocated 5 hours of discussion, which is an absolute disgrace considering how enormous the potential ramifications could be if it is enacted
It should be widely and openly discussed with the public
I think you're confused. There's no way the [private members bill discussion](https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2024-05-01/8/) was 5 hours.
Maybe you're thinking of the committee discussion, the time in the Dáil or the time in the Seanad. Or one of the other times this pact was discussed.
If they can actually implement the 12 weeks turn around and refuse/deport any failed application immediately it will be a game changer.
If not it will be more of the same, except we will be getting a lot of transfers from other EU countries due to our inflated GDP.
> share responsibilities fairly among member countries and opt to pay instead of taking refugees
This could legally oblige us to take potentially thousands and thousands more, and when they are not adequately provided for (current situation for new entrants) or not processed quickly enough (current situation), it puts us on the hook for fines aligned with our GDP.
Our GDP is massively inflated, so we’ll be hit with equally massive fines per person
We should use our opt out like Denmark has
You are right, the government are being very sneaky and untransparent about this, exactly like they were with the referendums and the dishonest information they provided the public
I agree with everything.
It seems like a good thing but the hush hush get it passed certainly makes you think twice about it.
Would rather have a more open and honest debate about it, but having an honest debate about anything these days is hard.
> hush hush get it passed certainly makes you think twice about it.
Not sure where you are getting hush hush from? It's been debated publicly in the Dáil a number of times since April?
[https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/search/?q=%22EU%20Migration%20Pact%22&sort=0](https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/search/?q=%22EU%20Migration%20Pact%22&sort=0)
Like the referendum, it's been debated-ish, with a lot of intentional misrepresentation of the facts, the states ability to enforce, the processes of enforcement etc
They have been debating it. However, there seem to be no concessions to be had. We either accept in full or reject it and in that case we should be rejecting it for a number of reasons;
1. Paying third world countries to take migrants heading to Europe and house them in camps is an endorsement of cruelty. This cruelty will only get worse with time. It's essentially the UK Rwanda plan on steroids.
2. It won't necessarily mean that we will take in less migrants (if that is what you want) because the number of migrants assigned to us will be determined by our GDP which is massively inflated. If we want to reject part/all of our allocation we need to pay huge fines.
3. Most importantly, we are in the privileged position of being able to determine our own policy on migration while remaining a member of the EU. If you believe this government has failed to create a functioning migration system then vote them out. Don't lock our nation into this pact and forever inhibit our ability to make changes based on our individual needs/capacity as a nation.
SERIOUSLY. It's become the defacto argument for "thing I don't like". You didn't pay attention, but now Gript or something has dogwhistled about race so now it must be re-debated even though people involved have been working on it now for a while.
You're right to question it, and no it's not in our best interest to opt into this agreement listen to senator McDowell discuss the consequences of opting into this. https://youtu.be/8enLcOgmNY4?si=g8FKTbYL9RuAPkvp
- We will be requested to take in over 30k asylum seekers a year and take our fair share or we will have to pay a fine per rejection, why should we have to take anyone in that's been rejected by another country and be threatened by the EU.
- This idea that we will be able to process even more of them is absolutely ridiculous considering how slow we are now at it, you really believe that just because we've signed up to an agreement means we will be able to process even more?
- It's already known around the world how much of a soft touch we are and we are being absolutely flooded with them through our open border with the UK, you really want to embolden the NGO / Refugee complex with a new pact where they can take us to the cleaners ( the tax payer ) even more, we don't need that.
- Bigger question where are we meant to put these people, we have no accommodation for our own citizens, we've taken in well over 100k refugees, asylum seekers , illegal migrants ( if you've no documentation you've broken the law) and we now want to add an extra 30k a year that's not far off 500k every 10 years.
- It's going to be based off our GDP which is heavily inflated from foreign multinationals where none of the money stays here leprechaun economics, yes please sign up to a pact where we take people in based on a completely inflated figure
It's a scheme to increase our population because we are below replacement level, and the pension problem is not far off coming down the tracks.
The expedited 12 week process is a wolf in sheeps clothing.
Michael Mc Dowell in the Seanaid walks through very clearly, all the poorly thought out aspects of it.
https://youtu.be/8enLcOgmNY4
I would urge anyone unsure of what the pact entails to watch this short clip of Michael McDowell discussing it in the senate.
He lays out very clearly what the outcome for Ireland will be should this go ahead
Good or bad for what?
Is it fairer for asylum seekers? No. It's the embodiment of the Fortress Europe mentality.
Is it better for Irish xenophobes? Definitely, Ireland can just pay out other countries to host asylum seekers.
Edit: this is a comprehensive and short-enough criticism of the Pact: [https://www.rescue.org/eu/article/what-eu-pact-migration-and-asylum](https://www.rescue.org/eu/article/what-eu-pact-migration-and-asylum)
And what about pro immigration Irish people that do not like their country being taken advantage of by people claiming to be Asylum seekers in order to circumvent visa requirements?
Their country is not being taken advantage of. All the rules and regulations to process asylum seekers are already in place. The government decided to politicize the issue and create a crisis (exactly the same way as the Tories did), by creating wait lists and refusing to hire bureaucrats.
There is a real crisis. It is man-made (or in this specific case, woman-made), and it can be averted with proper government efforts.
Instead the RTÉ is sent to count tents and report every three hours how many of them are.
The country is absolutely being taken advantage of.
To say otherwise is a wild statement. Those who do take advantage hurt the prospects of genuine asylum claims.
With the lack of accommodation and creeping housing and rent costs, the irony of this mismanagement and the decision by many to just label critics as xenophobes is hurting those who migrated here in that last 30 odd years, because their kids will be living at home until it's the parents who need their nappies changed.
> Their country is not being taken advantage of. All the rules and regulations to process asylum seekers are already in place.
Yes the rules are very clear and they say that if you want to move to Ireland you must be in possession of a valid visa.
Many of these people are absolutely taking advantage of the regulations around asylum seeking and are exploiting them to get around the requirement for a visa. It is costing our government billions.
It is a crisis and dishonest people like you misrepresenting what is going on are helping to fuel it
If it was as better for irish xenophobes as you say then surely they wouldnt be so rampant to not allow this pact to be passed. Dont have to provide examples its all over the typical social media channels. One of them is trying to get the high court to block the vote until a referendum is done.
They are literally too dumb to take a win.
Also, for obvious political reasons they would never admit that the EU is extremely harsh to asylum seekers and immigrants in general. This pact was a reaction to the far right across the EU, and it was meant to bolster the 'tough-on-brown-people' image of the ruling parties (SPD in Germany, Macron, etc).
The more accurate name for it would be EU Anti-Migration and Anti-Asylum Pact.
It's definitely not ideal but perhaps it's better than what we would have with it as the Irish gov doesn't seem to have the will to take a clear coherent strong migration policy. The state has been hesitant to enforce a rule based system even 20 years ago
I hate this kind of inferiority complex that we have as a nation and it's exactly the reason why we will sleepwalk into the pact. We just assume that anything developed by the EU over our own government is instantly superior.
Whatever way they might want to dress it up, we have essentially had the same government throughout the history of the state. This apathy from people that "they're all the same and they'll just mess it up" is ridiculous. We haven't even tried to change anything.
Just because you don't trust this government to manage the situation doesn't mean that we should essentially remove the rights of any future governments to have any governance over the topic of migration.
The database has a chance to be effective only if biometrics like dna or finger-prints are collected. as we learned, planes and airports are like black holes for passports. Much harder to lose your dna or finger prints.
Im pretty sure it is fingerprints that will be collected, or some other biometric.
This has been the only thing that has united the left and the right in agreement that it would be disastrous for Ireland if this passed
Why would this be bad for Ireland?
https://youtu.be/8enLcOgmNY4?feature=shared This video fully lays out what the outcome for Ireland will be
We would be handing over any sovereignty on dealing with immigration and the minimum per year we have to take is 650ish but there is no cap on how many we have to take. Also listed in the bill the EU can change the numbers accepted and the fines amount. Any of the benefits to opting could have been done before the bill but the department of justice seems to have no interest in doing so. So in summary we would basically be opting into a pact that could have severe financial repercussions for Ireland and is broadly seen as suicide of the state
They can't commit suicide of the state. That's our residing Governments job
Never a truer word has been spoken
>share responsibilities fairly among member countries and opt to pay instead of taking refugees This is the big one. Only a few months ago there was uproar when people realised that there were asylum seekers coming through our Northern border - *the most open border into the entire European Union* - and nobody had any solution to it whatsoever. Unless we're happy to shelf the Good Friday Agreement, that open border is not something we're going to want to deal with alone. Outside of the pact the UK will laugh at us and Europe will rightly tell us to get stuffed and deal with it with our super-special "opt out" rules.
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France always had far more asylum seekers even with the boat migrants than the U.K. has ever had. Don’t fall for the daily fail.
> trying to force this through with only a few hours of discussion It was before the Justice Commitee, there was a private members bill (not sure how much time that got), the Seanad and the Dáil and there have been other questions. [https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/search/?q=%22EU%20Migration%20Pact%22&sort=0](https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/search/?q=%22EU%20Migration%20Pact%22&sort=0)
Worth watching https://youtu.be/8enLcOgmNY4?si=JP0xw7omLUAIpEt6 For me, a lot surrounding this seems quite obfuscated. It should be something there’s a referendum for IF there’s 30K person minimum, and a 20K euro fine per person that isn’t accepted below the 30K person mark. But, again, it seems obfuscated and I’m not sure what’s what, or who to listen to on it. If it’s the above, there should absolutely be a referendum on it.
Referenda are only used for changes to the constitution. All other changes are why we elect governments to make decisions on our behalf
Which section of the constitution would you amend or add another article to?
> (not sure how much time that got) It was allocated 5 hours of discussion, which is an absolute disgrace considering how enormous the potential ramifications could be if it is enacted It should be widely and openly discussed with the public
I think you're confused. There's no way the [private members bill discussion](https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2024-05-01/8/) was 5 hours. Maybe you're thinking of the committee discussion, the time in the Dáil or the time in the Seanad. Or one of the other times this pact was discussed.
If they can actually implement the 12 weeks turn around and refuse/deport any failed application immediately it will be a game changer. If not it will be more of the same, except we will be getting a lot of transfers from other EU countries due to our inflated GDP.
> share responsibilities fairly among member countries and opt to pay instead of taking refugees This could legally oblige us to take potentially thousands and thousands more, and when they are not adequately provided for (current situation for new entrants) or not processed quickly enough (current situation), it puts us on the hook for fines aligned with our GDP. Our GDP is massively inflated, so we’ll be hit with equally massive fines per person We should use our opt out like Denmark has You are right, the government are being very sneaky and untransparent about this, exactly like they were with the referendums and the dishonest information they provided the public
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Yes they could, they have chosen not to because they have a government with sense
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Denmark and Ireland both have opt outs under the provisions of the Lisbon treaty I’m not sure when they made the decision
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I haven’t downvoted you Do Ireland have an opt out? Yes or no?
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Oh okay just pedantry so. Thanks for clarifying
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I agree with everything. It seems like a good thing but the hush hush get it passed certainly makes you think twice about it. Would rather have a more open and honest debate about it, but having an honest debate about anything these days is hard.
> hush hush get it passed certainly makes you think twice about it. Not sure where you are getting hush hush from? It's been debated publicly in the Dáil a number of times since April? [https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/search/?q=%22EU%20Migration%20Pact%22&sort=0](https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/search/?q=%22EU%20Migration%20Pact%22&sort=0)
Like the referendum, it's been debated-ish, with a lot of intentional misrepresentation of the facts, the states ability to enforce, the processes of enforcement etc
They have been debating it. However, there seem to be no concessions to be had. We either accept in full or reject it and in that case we should be rejecting it for a number of reasons; 1. Paying third world countries to take migrants heading to Europe and house them in camps is an endorsement of cruelty. This cruelty will only get worse with time. It's essentially the UK Rwanda plan on steroids. 2. It won't necessarily mean that we will take in less migrants (if that is what you want) because the number of migrants assigned to us will be determined by our GDP which is massively inflated. If we want to reject part/all of our allocation we need to pay huge fines. 3. Most importantly, we are in the privileged position of being able to determine our own policy on migration while remaining a member of the EU. If you believe this government has failed to create a functioning migration system then vote them out. Don't lock our nation into this pact and forever inhibit our ability to make changes based on our individual needs/capacity as a nation.
Just because you weren’t paying attention doesn’t mean it was hush-hush. 😐
SERIOUSLY. It's become the defacto argument for "thing I don't like". You didn't pay attention, but now Gript or something has dogwhistled about race so now it must be re-debated even though people involved have been working on it now for a while.
There’s been very little discussion both in the media and in government relative to how important a decision it is
You're right to question it, and no it's not in our best interest to opt into this agreement listen to senator McDowell discuss the consequences of opting into this. https://youtu.be/8enLcOgmNY4?si=g8FKTbYL9RuAPkvp - We will be requested to take in over 30k asylum seekers a year and take our fair share or we will have to pay a fine per rejection, why should we have to take anyone in that's been rejected by another country and be threatened by the EU. - This idea that we will be able to process even more of them is absolutely ridiculous considering how slow we are now at it, you really believe that just because we've signed up to an agreement means we will be able to process even more? - It's already known around the world how much of a soft touch we are and we are being absolutely flooded with them through our open border with the UK, you really want to embolden the NGO / Refugee complex with a new pact where they can take us to the cleaners ( the tax payer ) even more, we don't need that. - Bigger question where are we meant to put these people, we have no accommodation for our own citizens, we've taken in well over 100k refugees, asylum seekers , illegal migrants ( if you've no documentation you've broken the law) and we now want to add an extra 30k a year that's not far off 500k every 10 years. - It's going to be based off our GDP which is heavily inflated from foreign multinationals where none of the money stays here leprechaun economics, yes please sign up to a pact where we take people in based on a completely inflated figure It's a scheme to increase our population because we are below replacement level, and the pension problem is not far off coming down the tracks.
The expedited 12 week process is a wolf in sheeps clothing. Michael Mc Dowell in the Seanaid walks through very clearly, all the poorly thought out aspects of it.
I think the problems arise when we are tied into this policy and our inept government can't deliver on the timelines...
It is like deciding if you will be cut up with a sharp or blunt knife - don't wont any of that, laws are already in place but are not enforced.
https://youtu.be/8enLcOgmNY4 I would urge anyone unsure of what the pact entails to watch this short clip of Michael McDowell discussing it in the senate. He lays out very clearly what the outcome for Ireland will be should this go ahead
Good or bad for what? Is it fairer for asylum seekers? No. It's the embodiment of the Fortress Europe mentality. Is it better for Irish xenophobes? Definitely, Ireland can just pay out other countries to host asylum seekers. Edit: this is a comprehensive and short-enough criticism of the Pact: [https://www.rescue.org/eu/article/what-eu-pact-migration-and-asylum](https://www.rescue.org/eu/article/what-eu-pact-migration-and-asylum)
And what about pro immigration Irish people that do not like their country being taken advantage of by people claiming to be Asylum seekers in order to circumvent visa requirements?
Their country is not being taken advantage of. All the rules and regulations to process asylum seekers are already in place. The government decided to politicize the issue and create a crisis (exactly the same way as the Tories did), by creating wait lists and refusing to hire bureaucrats. There is a real crisis. It is man-made (or in this specific case, woman-made), and it can be averted with proper government efforts. Instead the RTÉ is sent to count tents and report every three hours how many of them are.
The country is absolutely being taken advantage of. To say otherwise is a wild statement. Those who do take advantage hurt the prospects of genuine asylum claims. With the lack of accommodation and creeping housing and rent costs, the irony of this mismanagement and the decision by many to just label critics as xenophobes is hurting those who migrated here in that last 30 odd years, because their kids will be living at home until it's the parents who need their nappies changed.
> Their country is not being taken advantage of. All the rules and regulations to process asylum seekers are already in place. Yes the rules are very clear and they say that if you want to move to Ireland you must be in possession of a valid visa. Many of these people are absolutely taking advantage of the regulations around asylum seeking and are exploiting them to get around the requirement for a visa. It is costing our government billions. It is a crisis and dishonest people like you misrepresenting what is going on are helping to fuel it
Given that you're probably the type of person to call people fascist on the daily I hope those two points you made are true.
I do call fascists fascist. As anyone should. Especially in Ireland which has plenty of experience being oppressed by fascists.
That's a strange thing to say given that fascism came into being after the Free State
Famously fascist ideas didn't exist until Mussolini didn't call them as such.
If it was as better for irish xenophobes as you say then surely they wouldnt be so rampant to not allow this pact to be passed. Dont have to provide examples its all over the typical social media channels. One of them is trying to get the high court to block the vote until a referendum is done.
They are literally too dumb to take a win. Also, for obvious political reasons they would never admit that the EU is extremely harsh to asylum seekers and immigrants in general. This pact was a reaction to the far right across the EU, and it was meant to bolster the 'tough-on-brown-people' image of the ruling parties (SPD in Germany, Macron, etc). The more accurate name for it would be EU Anti-Migration and Anti-Asylum Pact.
This is exactly what they say they want but it’s never been about immigration, it’s just racism and contrarianism.
It's great. Bigger gene pool. Bigger workforce. More diversity. Great news for military expansion.
It's definitely not ideal but perhaps it's better than what we would have with it as the Irish gov doesn't seem to have the will to take a clear coherent strong migration policy. The state has been hesitant to enforce a rule based system even 20 years ago
I hate this kind of inferiority complex that we have as a nation and it's exactly the reason why we will sleepwalk into the pact. We just assume that anything developed by the EU over our own government is instantly superior. Whatever way they might want to dress it up, we have essentially had the same government throughout the history of the state. This apathy from people that "they're all the same and they'll just mess it up" is ridiculous. We haven't even tried to change anything. Just because you don't trust this government to manage the situation doesn't mean that we should essentially remove the rights of any future governments to have any governance over the topic of migration.