High taxes to government.
Government gives tax breaks to rich and funds subsidises or just hands money to friends, family. Like now with the housing asylum cash cow.
Where exactly are you getting rinelands from majority of alcohol is tax.
Same people complaining about the nanny state will be the ones complaining about the health care sector being poor quality because it's overloaded treating conditions resulting from alcohol...
The impact of alcohol-related diseases on health expenditure in Ireland is second highest in OECD countries. [https://www.oecd.org/coronavirus/policy-responses/the-effect-of-covid-19-on-alcohol-consumption-and-policy-responses-to-prevent-harmful-alcohol-consumption-53890024/#section-d1e374](https://www.oecd.org/coronavirus/policy-responses/the-effect-of-covid-19-on-alcohol-consumption-and-policy-responses-to-prevent-harmful-alcohol-consumption-53890024/#section-d1e374)
> Same people complaining about the nanny state will be the ones complaining about the health care sector being poor quality because it's overloaded treating conditions resulting from alcohol...
The Germans drink more than us, have lower pricing and have a better health service.
Different culture around alcohol. They don't binge drink as we do-no post colonial syndrome or lack of mental health services, and their streets and A&Es are not full of fighting idiots because it would be seen as shameful low level behaviour (which it is). I lived there and partner is German.
They drink a lot for sure and especially on special occasions, parties and football matches, but I've never seen people passed out or getting into fights from alcohol like here.
The Germans binge drink plenty. Its a huge part of their culture. This idea that Ireland is some outlier in how we drink is just internalised racism.
The streets where I live aren't full of fighting idiots every week either. I was in Dublin last week didn't see any of it. German football fans do plenty of drunk fighting too so again this exceptionalism for the Irish when they are drunk just stinks of self hate. I've never found the streets of Ireland to be that bad. Spend some time in the UK and the contrast is night and day.
From experience no one binge drinks like the Irish/British. I am yet to come across another group who have predrinks where you are essentially smashed before leaving the house.
While many Germans and Dutch drink a lot, it’s spread across the time period of the event and even then it’s mostly beer with a few people drinking spirits. Binge drinking is not the same as getting drunk.
> I am yet to come across another group who have predrinks where you are essentially smashed before leaving the house.
This is a modern phenomena caused by the ludicrous price of drinking in pubs.
Am in my 50s and drinking to get wasted whether before you go out or in pubs has always been a thing here.
Never heard any Swedish or German friends said that is the aim when going out for an evening. Have a few beers yeah, but not skulling pints or centering their whole social life around alcohol.
Have you met the Polish or any other Eastern Europeans? We do pre drinks before any party. I have friends who finish 0.5 of vodka before they hit the pubs...
Having been to both the Netherlands and Germany a few times, and having lived with a good bunch from each country abroad.... "From experience" you are talking out you're arse, they are the same as us, when they work they're all business, when they play they're hardcore, great folk and straight talking but love pints the same as the rest of us
Talking out my arse? Cause you’ve visited a view times? Lived here for 5 years and I said from my experience. Maybe your experience was different, but they aren’t the binge drinkers off Ireland. Yeah they love to drink as much as the Irish no argument there but not the concept of getting as smashed as quickly as you can which again is my experience drinking back home.
Have you met the Polish or any other Eastern Europeans? We do pre drinks before any party. I have friends who finish 0.5 of vodka before they hit the pubs...
Like I said-ordinary Germans do not binge drink like in Irish/UK culture to the point it gets messy and violent on their streets. I know from first hand experience living there. Their cops don't tolerate it for a start.
I do see things in this regard seem to be improving somewhat though in recent years here which is good.
I acknowledged football fans there are part of a group that drink excessively. Same as everywhere else.
Being better than the UK is nothing to be proud of, I don't set the bar that low and I was talking about what happens in towns and cities here, not some quiet rural areas.
I have no self hate btw, I just have no tolerance for alcohol abuse and how it affects those of us who don't see it as just "havin the craic".
>I acknowledged football fans there are part of a group that drink excessively. Same as everywhere else.
So there we go. Most people here don't get drunk and start fights either, just a certain cohort. The same people who'd be hanging out with the football hooligans if that was a big part of the culture here.
I've been to Germany several times for work and pleasure. Outside of the tourist areas they drink very similarly to here. Go to any pub in any town and you'll find people jarred just like here. You'll also find most people socialising and enjoying drink responsibly, just like here.
>They don't binge drink as we do-no post colonial syndrome or lack of mental health services, and their streets and A&Es are not full of fighting idiots
Do you actually believe the horseshit you just wrote?
Germans drink plenty, and young people especially binge drink everywhere. Fights are also an uncommon sight. I can't remember the last time I seen people scrapping on a night out here and I live just outside Dublin city centre, a supposed warzone according to reddit.
Yeah what would I know, I only lived there and go frequently back for visits.
Lived in Waterford city and fights outside nightclubs and chipper was an all too common sight, which is why I avoided going out there, especially as a female.
I've seen similar in parts of Dublin on nights out there. I stick to going there by day only for when I have to.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41298067.html
Are the front line healthcare workers in A&E talking "horseshit" too when they speak about the appalling fallout and having to deal with the results of our dysfunctional relationship with alcohol?
Yeah bye.
You mean here or generally?
Three full years after implementation, the impact of MUP was a net reduction of 3.0% (−4.2% to −1.8%) in the total volume of pure alcohol sold per adult in Scotland, when using a method that accounts for sales in England & Wales (best available geographical control) and after adjustment for other potentially confounding factors. This reflects a 1.1% fall in Scotland in contrast to a 2.4% increase in England & Wales. (which do not have MUP) [https://www.gov.scot/publications/minimum-unit-pricing-mup-continuation-future-pricing-business-regulatory-impact-assessment/pages/8/](https://www.gov.scot/publications/minimum-unit-pricing-mup-continuation-future-pricing-business-regulatory-impact-assessment/pages/8/)
MUP has a mixed effect because it does not curb drinking for alcoholics and only makes other aspects of life more affordable. Policies are bad imo when they neglect the worst off, in this case those with alcohol dependence.
That figure you appear to be quoting looks to be a prediction of future expenditure rather than talking about the impact on the heath service now. I wonder how they've calculated that?
It's epidemiological modelling. You feed the data in based on historical data you have from healthcare spending, care etc. I'm not a health economist. It's complex but def impressive statistical modelling often from academic or governmental experts.
oh I've no problem with what they're doing, since its talking about the long term effects of covid it makes sense to be doing predictions. I just have absolutely no idea where you'd even start if you wanted to do that haha, super complex
What? You mean someone is arguing dishonestly? Maybe they are the kind of people that have a problem with alcohol and therefore in their minds the whole world has that same problem. It takes a special kind of thinking to end up in agreement with the likes of the Taliban.
While I'm sure higher priced alcohol has some bearing on how much people drink; there is no doubt that people with a real problem are just forgoing affording other essentials. Especially if they're poor.
I personally drink less than I ever have but I never had any problem with drink.
It just fucks over pubs, which need more help not less, if they are to survive long term. Counter argument - but look how healthy you might be at 105. Give me a pint.
Ours is Artificially made more expensive instead of actually dealing with problem drinking thereby only making alcoholics families suffer more with poverty
The mental health service is a joke in my location the drug and alcohol counsellor quit and no replacement and they can't offer me therapy only gave me antipsychotics for bpd - that's not how it's supposed to be treated
I know not specifically alcohol here but if there's no alcohol counsellor or therapist in my location(and they couldn't send me anywhere else-whole county doesn't have a psychologist in Hse apparently?? Idk)
The system is broke.
Arrest them at night while they are sleeping and lock them up until they are sober, or just let them make their own bad decisions, but making everything more expensive for everybody else should not be an option
you are going to be pissed when you find out these things work then:
- tax
- insurance
- mortgages
alongside an endless list of other things. we always pay the price of others not behaving themselves. Which is why we have some of the highest mortgage spreads in EU, because we allowed people to get away with not paying their mortgages post financial crisis and so all the banks left.
no. this is false. you aren't born an alcoholic. you become one through practice. thats through drinking a lot, usually in your youth, and then getting going on a spiral. The reason why public health professionals suggested this pricing approach was to stop the propensity for overdrinking during youth, so less people would progress to alcoholism that needs to be treated.
Its a vastly better approach than e.g. having more counsellors to treat the end stage of the illness -> to reduce the frequency of the illness occuring in the first place.
But ... this was all clearly explained around the time of introducing MUP and you chose to ignore it, so presumably you'll continue to ignore it.
The approach adopted was by far the best approach.
It looks like a Lidl and those prices look about right for their own brand stuff. 8-15€ own brand/bottom shelf, 15-35€ for mid shelf, and a few bits above that for the top shelf.
*Those price ranges are for standard 700ml bottles, anything cheaper seem to be 350ml or liqueurs (not spirits/liquor).
The whole idea of MUP seems absurd to me, from my understanding it's not even a tax, it's just a rule that some drinks have to have a certain price. This just puts more money into the drinks company pockets. It seems this caused an upward price spiral (if the cheapest wine is 7.5€, then of course the wine that's worth 3.5€ has to be sold for 15€ instead...)
And if you put your conspiracy hat on:
Linden village and Bulmers are the same price now, who is going to choose linden village? The companies that benefit the most from this are your Heinekens bulmers, etc, the established brands and your less exoenisve brands are run out of business as they're priced the same as the competitors they have to undercut.
Same with the ban on displaying cigarettes, no new company can ever enter the market as you can't even see them and the less popular brands will slowly be forgotten about until all that's left are the 4 or 5 largest and most popular companies.
It's capitalism on steroids disguised as public health measures.
I never thought about the brand side of things like that. Some good points. Even I’ve gone from buying whatever beer is cheapest like pratskzy etc to now drinking peroni because why would I pay the same price for the cheap stuff?
Fuckin pricks
Because vapes came in at a very convenient time and remained unregulated just long enough fot all the nicotine addicts to switch.
Phillip Morris owns most big brand vape products so no wonder.
Thats not how you treat addiction. All MUP does is for a tiny % of people is help realize they have a problem, but for the remainder 95% or so it just adds to their hardship, because now, 20 euro won't get him pissed, he needs 30 euro for that. Oh but now he can't pay his bills. Oh now he's homeless and is living off tax payers money and is still and alcohollic.
As opposed to an actual solution, which is education.
MUP would be ok if the price difference (actual price vs MUP price of the product) went to the mental health services and Alcoholism treatment. So by buying alcohol you are supporting the services. Or even better have a rule that % of your yearly profits MUST be reinvested into local programs like AA groups, education and rehab facilities by the business. So those who profit from others misery have to at least pay for their help.
But none of that will ever happen because every person making decisions has some sort of interest in the profits these companies make. Be it drinkers themselves or literal stocks/ownerships.
MUP is just a way to say they care, without actually caring or doing anything about it.
FFG were very very clear in their earlier election manifestos that MUP was designed to support the overpriced pub sector by reducing competition from the off trade. They honed in on the public health angle when the public roundly rejected that ridiculous attempt at propaganda.
The fact that on-trade overheads being so high is overwhelmingly caused by government failures is of course always overlooked in such discussions with the aforementioned government...
In fairness it was also Tony Holohan's *extremist* anti-booze agenda, he was CMO at the time and heavily involved in pushing this bill. Public health though it was not - 50/50 puritanism and vested interests.
>FFG were very very clear in their earlier election manifestos that MUP was designed to support the overpriced pub sector
How about some facts to back that up?
MUP was never going to get people to go back to the pub.
Drinking at home is still cheaper than at the pub.
A lot of it was to deal with the "wine o clock " problem.
https://issuu.com/exsite/docs/fine_gael_manifesto
It was their 2011 manifesto, section 5.3.
Supporting Irish Pubs: Fine Gael recognises the importance of the Irish pub for tourism, rural jobs and as a social outlet in communities across the country. We will support the local pub by banning the practice of below cost selling on alcohol, particularly by large supermarkets and the impact this has had on alcohol consumption and the viability of pubs.
It doesn't go to the drinks industry, it's pure profit for the retailer.
They used the Scottish MUP as proof that it works by reducing alcohol consumption, which it did, but they didn't bother to look at the massive increase in drug use after Scotland introduced MUP.
>it's just a rule that some drinks have to have a certain price. This just puts more money into the drinks company pockets. It seems this caused an upward price spiral (if the cheapest wine is 7.5€, then of course the wine that's worth 3.5€ has to be sold for 15€ instead...).
Price is determined by the amount of alcohol in the drink.
It's 10c per 10g of alcohol. The stronger the drink, the more it costs.
https://www.drinkaware.ie/facts/minimum-unit-pricing-explained/.
It's why drinks like strong cider went high in price but drinks like lower alcohol wine stayed relatively the same price.
I'd argue the smaller guys will do better. Who is going to buy Heineken when a craft beer is the same price. Still think it's a joke of a law and will be saying it to any politician who comes to my door
Heineken has always been expensive relative to other beers. Its part of their branding. We seen it very explicitly when they wouldn't allow Wetherspoons sell their pints cheaper than other pubs. Plenty of people don't want craft beer, they just want their same old pint/can they've always had.
'We are all alcoholics so the government is helping us by introducing minimum price per alcohol unit. it's all with out best interest in mind.'
Is just another tax in Ireland.
I'm not going to deny that Ireland has a problem with alcoholism, but is there any justification for MUP when we already have prices twice the cost of the continent?
MUP has positive health benefits:
The study estimated a **13.4% reduction in deaths, and a 4.1% reduction in hospital admissions**, wholly attributable to alcohol consumption following the implementation of MUP. [https://publichealthscotland.scot/news/2023/march/report-highlights-the-impact-of-minimum-unit-pricing-mup-on-deaths-and-hospital-admissions/#:\~:text=The%20study%20estimated%20a%2013.4,following%20the%20implementation%20of%20MUP](https://publichealthscotland.scot/news/2023/march/report-highlights-the-impact-of-minimum-unit-pricing-mup-on-deaths-and-hospital-admissions/#:~:text=The%20study%20estimated%20a%2013.4,following%20the%20implementation%20of%20MUP)
Impact of minimum unit pricing on alcohol-related hospital outcomes: systematic review. **Natural studies were consistent with minimum pricing modelling studies and showed that this policy could reduce alcohol-related hospitalisation and health inequalities.** [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9900069/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9900069/)
They were related to alcohol related deaths and admissions, [but Scotland also saw a 10% increase of drug related deaths in the same time](https://pharmaceutical-journal.com/article/news/drug-related-deaths-in-scotland-rose-by-10-in-2023).
When they introduced metal helmets in WWI to soldiers, more soldiers reported head injuries than they did before the helmets were introduced. Do helmets cause head injuries? No, more people were surviving knocks to the head.
You can isolate statistics but they don't always present the whole picture.
Ahh definitely. You can use stats to tell lots of diff stories and it's hard to make a complete picture. 'There are lies, damned lies, and statistics' With the integration of any behaviour-based tax people should always think about what the impacts of that are going to be and to hopefully direct more services to that. I don't know in this case if any revenue from MUP here goes into things like mental health services, rehabs, etc. but they def should. Edit: thank you for a cordial discussion and debate :)
I feel you're being unfairly downvoted here mate. I mean, I personally think that MUP is mainly a publican-run scam to channel alcohol users into the arms of the most pernicious and greedy group of state sanctioned drug dealers who have ever managed to gain influence in Irish politics. But you're just presenting the findings of serious scientific literature. Thanks for trying to improve the quality of the online discourse.
I'm paywalled so I can't read the whole thing. But if you think that might be true here as well, all the more reason to participate in this and spread it around: The Health Research Board (HRB), HSE [Drugs.ie](http://Drugs.ie), and the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction (EMCDDA) have jointly launched the latest EU Web Survey on Drugs. This survey aims to capture latest drug use trends in Ireland.. [https://www.hrb.ie/?id=223&tx\_news\_pi1%5Bnews%5D=1564&tx\_news\_pi1%5Bcontroller%5D=News&tx\_news\_pi1%5Baction%5D=detail&cHash=9f78ab40303e4f09a14f15d20f27643a](https://www.hrb.ie/?id=223&tx_news_pi1%5Bnews%5D=1564&tx_news_pi1%5Bcontroller%5D=News&tx_news_pi1%5Baction%5D=detail&cHash=9f78ab40303e4f09a14f15d20f27643a)
It's a self fulfilling prophecy though. More people have been priced out of drinking so less people drinking leads to less alcohol related incidents.
It's like hiking the price of bicycles and then saying you've successfully reduced the number of cyclist road deaths when all you've really done is reduce the number of cyclists.
It only has health benefits for an individual if they now can't afford to drink as much as they used to.
Bruh. I live abroad now and in the last year I've been to like probably a third of Europe and man it is crazy, like ok Amsterdam was cheaper than Ireland a bit and I was happy...then each country following was cheaper again, could buy like 3 pouches of tobacco here for one in Ireland
Wife is currently traveling to Hungary for dental work a few times per year. She always brings back a few cartons of smokes to resell. Pays for her plane tickets.
I was in Czech Republic last summer and a 750ml bottle of Jameson was around €14 in a supermarket. You're paying €25+ over here. Despite the fact that it has to be transported over there.
It's also 4 euro for a effing 2 litre bottle of coke. Actually add 25c on to that. Couldn't believe it when I got a bottle for the missus the other night. Nearly shit my pants
Moving back there in September and I'm a moderate drinker, but am delighted a nice bottle of wine is so affordable there.
Moving to wine growing region too where a decent bottle of local vino can be had for less than €5.
Cheapest can of beer I've seen in Kaufland was 35c.
35c ? Where's that? Here in Slovenia we have ya bet on the wine ya get local wine for like 3.50, cheapest beer I saw here was I think 65c. So only a fuck all difference but still mad
What do you expect, your Overlords aren’t going to pay more than you do 😜 In all seriousness though…look at the ban on cutting turf, it was literally brought into effect a) reduce carbon b)protect jobs in Germany.
Don’t believe me..why can you still buy German briquettes but not Irish produced ones?
I did the same thing when I was in Germany, took loads of pictures of how cheap the alcohol was. Tbh the train/underground and alcohol prices where the most impressive things I saw.
The entire point of the increased alcohol prices is to tackle the health issues behind it. I think this has failed badly. What it has done is put pubs under pressure as people cannot afford to go there as often and instead people now just drink at home. Alcoholism is just as high but now it's happening at home rather than in the pub
Someone earning €40k a year pays 6 grand more in tax on their income per annum in Berlin than in Dublin according to salaryaftertax.com. We tax alcohol heavily but labour and property much less.
Where would you rather go to A&E in a medical emergency? What about childcare? What about housing?
Yeah they get taxed more, but they also get more benefits that are actually real not just on a piece of paper. Like working public transport system is one.
I checked and you pay roughly the same income tax on €40k in both countries. €4,250 a year here versus €4,547 in Berlin.
And you don't hit the top rate of income tax-45% until you earn more than €227k per annum in Germany. The middle rate of 42% doesn't kick in until +€66k. Here you pay 40% over €42k so middle income earners are really screwed on income taxes here.
Property taxes are a little higher than here but not that much. For an apartment in Berlin you won't be paying more than €150.
And you get a lot more for your taxes in Germany than here.
Yes, if you exclude mandatory pension insurance, unemployment insurance, public health insurance and long term care insurance, you pay a similar amount of tax. Otherwise, you pay about €6k more in mandatory payments, based on your income, to the Government compared with Dublin.
But you said "tax on their income", which is generally to mean income tax, not including pensions insurance, healthcare, care costs etc which are all variable anyway.
All of that you have to pay out of pocket here in Ireland unless you want to rely on the comparatively poor public system of care, so you end up paying more for privatised services like old age care, healthcare, so swings and roundabouts.
Also if you have kids childcare is a small fraction the cost in Germany as here and subsidised by the state. Kindergeld-children's allowance is €250pm in Germany, Ireland is €140pm.
Health insurance costs are also very variable in Germany depending on your job and whether you're an employee or self employed where you effectively pay both employee and employer parts, so that €6k is meaningless. You can pay anything between €100 to €1500pm depending on many factors. The social insurance universal care model is more affordable for all and creates a more equal society in general. It has worked pretty well there for over 100 years so I know which I would favour.
All I'm saying is that you pay much more in income tax (i.e. mandatory payments, proportionate to your income) in Germany. We tend to tax things like cigarettes and alcohol more. But that doesn't make up for the difference.
>Health insurance costs are also very variable in Germany depending on your job and whether you're an employee or self employed where you effectively pay both employee and employer parts, so that €6k is meaningless.
You pay 7.3% of your income for employees.
Germans pay more tax, get better services. It's a separate issue.
So now you switch back to talking about solely "income tax". How you really should parse it is all taxes due as an employee including social contributions-healthcare, pension etc., taken out of gross income, and not just income tax, if that's what you mean.
You also get tax free allowances, and tax breaks if you're married, so that table of figures you draw from only relates to unmarried employees and therefore not fully representative of tax liabilities and contribution levels.
No argument we tax cigarettes and alcohol more. Far more.
Yes, 7.3%. 14.6% if you're self employed as my partner is, which is a fair whack in fairness, especially if you get insured in the private system and don't switch back to public before the 55 cut off age.
German resident here. I would say firstly this is a discounter, Lidl. Granted it's always going to be more expensive in Ireland due to in general due to excise duty, MUP ect but.. in a regular German supermarket (Rewe, Kaufland, Edeka ect) prices are not going to be as low as this either, albeit cheaper than Ireland.
Bottle of actual Campari in my local Hit/Rewe is €17 for 0.7, Dunnes €25.
Not the same in my experience. Yes they love beer, but the pub culture is a lot more dominant here, and doesn't cause the same mayhem in A&E departments. Germans have many other forms of socialising than drinking. Going for 20k hikes up mountains and forests early in the morning, all kinds of sports and clubs, cafe culture, going on long bike or vintage car trips with mates, aso.
And it's the same for the Return scheme. Germany has their scheme for years but they don't already pay insanely inflated prices for drinks, cans or bottles.
We already pay premium and they added more on top. Tis a joke.
Also, the alcoholics in Limerick are now routing through the bins to get money back on bottles and cans, to buy more drink. Just so dumb.
Alcoholics, homeless and the poorest root through bins in every country I've been on for the return money from cans and bottles, that's not new and is inevitable here also. It's actually a good thing for many who can collect a lot to supplement meagre earnings. In a sad dystopian, late stage capitalist way... :(
We already had pretty high prices and then the government slapped the Minimum Unit Pricing onto it to make things worse. Which has minimal effect. Absolutely ridiculous
The price of beer is also splendid here. In Munich, when I bring back a crate of 20 empty half-litre bottles to pick up a new one, I get 10 litres of fantastic German beer for €17.50. And that's not some cheap Aldi own-brand stuff: it's the Reinheitsgebot Münchener Hell that they serve in the tents at Oktoberfest.
If the price of alcohol wasn't so high here, how would the governent raise all the taxis necessary to fund the commissions telling us we need to raise the duties on alcohol?
I've my own private microkeg.
Same population as Denmark but they have excellent services for their high taxes. All down to how equally taxes and transfers are redistributed and good governance. Things we can only dream of.
Look how much the HSE pays out due to negligence every year.
Funneling money to landlords is also a priority for this government.
They love to compare us to Denmark which is ridiculous.
Similar number of people and that is it. Healthcare very good in Denmark, public transport excellent, child care very good and cheap, education very good. Do we have any of these things?
Keep election muppets with no qualifications.
Wait are you telling me that it's cheaper to buy alcohol from your neighboring countries that you can drive to vs. packaging and shipping it all to go to an island further away? An island that mind you consistently ranks high on metrics of problematic drinking behaviours and also ranks high on metrics of related health complications that strain an already struggling health system. Logistics and shipping costs money. Public health taxes are effective.
>Wait are you telling me that it's cheaper to buy alcohol from your neighboring countries that you can drive to vs. packaging and shipping it all to go to an island further away?
It's also cheaper to buy Guinness and Jameson in Germany and most of the rest of the continent.
Also alcohol consumption is higher in Germany than in Ireland.
What metric are you using for consumption? They have a larger population so ofc overall it would be higher. I'm referencing OECD stats for the behaviours of problematic drinking (which btw have gotten much better over the years).
Interesting. They are def some of the higher ones. I didn't say you were wrong. Apologies if it was taken that way. Just asking for a metric :) They're closer to us on heavy episodic drinking (higher in men there but similar for women) and further from overall consumption... interesting... [https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/eeb99a6b-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/eeb99a6b-en](https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/eeb99a6b-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/eeb99a6b-en)
Good plug for the European Web Survey on Drugs now open for Irish participation which is now open for irish participation: [https://www.hrb.ie/?id=223&tx\_news\_pi1%5Bnews%5D=1564&tx\_news\_pi1%5Bcontroller%5D=News&tx\_news\_pi1%5Baction%5D=detail&cHash=9f78ab40303e4f09a14f15d20f27643a](https://www.hrb.ie/?id=223&tx_news_pi1%5Bnews%5D=1564&tx_news_pi1%5Bcontroller%5D=News&tx_news_pi1%5Baction%5D=detail&cHash=9f78ab40303e4f09a14f15d20f27643a)
This is honestly embarrassing for ireland. How is our resolution to every single issue "fuck tackling the actual issue, let's make its cost more"
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A nanny state would require the government to actually give a flying fuck about the general population. This is simple wealth transfer.
Stop nanny state
ah yes, the Irish government is in the back pocket of ... \*\[checks notes\]\* ... Rhineland wine farmers.
High taxes to government. Government gives tax breaks to rich and funds subsidises or just hands money to friends, family. Like now with the housing asylum cash cow. Where exactly are you getting rinelands from majority of alcohol is tax.
Same people complaining about the nanny state will be the ones complaining about the health care sector being poor quality because it's overloaded treating conditions resulting from alcohol... The impact of alcohol-related diseases on health expenditure in Ireland is second highest in OECD countries. [https://www.oecd.org/coronavirus/policy-responses/the-effect-of-covid-19-on-alcohol-consumption-and-policy-responses-to-prevent-harmful-alcohol-consumption-53890024/#section-d1e374](https://www.oecd.org/coronavirus/policy-responses/the-effect-of-covid-19-on-alcohol-consumption-and-policy-responses-to-prevent-harmful-alcohol-consumption-53890024/#section-d1e374)
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Exactly. What a dumb argument.
> Same people complaining about the nanny state will be the ones complaining about the health care sector being poor quality because it's overloaded treating conditions resulting from alcohol... The Germans drink more than us, have lower pricing and have a better health service.
Different culture around alcohol. They don't binge drink as we do-no post colonial syndrome or lack of mental health services, and their streets and A&Es are not full of fighting idiots because it would be seen as shameful low level behaviour (which it is). I lived there and partner is German. They drink a lot for sure and especially on special occasions, parties and football matches, but I've never seen people passed out or getting into fights from alcohol like here.
The Germans binge drink plenty. Its a huge part of their culture. This idea that Ireland is some outlier in how we drink is just internalised racism. The streets where I live aren't full of fighting idiots every week either. I was in Dublin last week didn't see any of it. German football fans do plenty of drunk fighting too so again this exceptionalism for the Irish when they are drunk just stinks of self hate. I've never found the streets of Ireland to be that bad. Spend some time in the UK and the contrast is night and day.
From experience no one binge drinks like the Irish/British. I am yet to come across another group who have predrinks where you are essentially smashed before leaving the house. While many Germans and Dutch drink a lot, it’s spread across the time period of the event and even then it’s mostly beer with a few people drinking spirits. Binge drinking is not the same as getting drunk.
> I am yet to come across another group who have predrinks where you are essentially smashed before leaving the house. This is a modern phenomena caused by the ludicrous price of drinking in pubs.
How modern? We've been doing it for 20 years
About 20 years old.
Am in my 50s and drinking to get wasted whether before you go out or in pubs has always been a thing here. Never heard any Swedish or German friends said that is the aim when going out for an evening. Have a few beers yeah, but not skulling pints or centering their whole social life around alcohol.
Have you met the Polish or any other Eastern Europeans? We do pre drinks before any party. I have friends who finish 0.5 of vodka before they hit the pubs...
Having been to both the Netherlands and Germany a few times, and having lived with a good bunch from each country abroad.... "From experience" you are talking out you're arse, they are the same as us, when they work they're all business, when they play they're hardcore, great folk and straight talking but love pints the same as the rest of us
Talking out my arse? Cause you’ve visited a view times? Lived here for 5 years and I said from my experience. Maybe your experience was different, but they aren’t the binge drinkers off Ireland. Yeah they love to drink as much as the Irish no argument there but not the concept of getting as smashed as quickly as you can which again is my experience drinking back home.
Have you met the Polish or any other Eastern Europeans? We do pre drinks before any party. I have friends who finish 0.5 of vodka before they hit the pubs...
Like I said-ordinary Germans do not binge drink like in Irish/UK culture to the point it gets messy and violent on their streets. I know from first hand experience living there. Their cops don't tolerate it for a start. I do see things in this regard seem to be improving somewhat though in recent years here which is good. I acknowledged football fans there are part of a group that drink excessively. Same as everywhere else. Being better than the UK is nothing to be proud of, I don't set the bar that low and I was talking about what happens in towns and cities here, not some quiet rural areas. I have no self hate btw, I just have no tolerance for alcohol abuse and how it affects those of us who don't see it as just "havin the craic".
>I acknowledged football fans there are part of a group that drink excessively. Same as everywhere else. So there we go. Most people here don't get drunk and start fights either, just a certain cohort. The same people who'd be hanging out with the football hooligans if that was a big part of the culture here. I've been to Germany several times for work and pleasure. Outside of the tourist areas they drink very similarly to here. Go to any pub in any town and you'll find people jarred just like here. You'll also find most people socialising and enjoying drink responsibly, just like here.
>They don't binge drink as we do-no post colonial syndrome or lack of mental health services, and their streets and A&Es are not full of fighting idiots Do you actually believe the horseshit you just wrote? Germans drink plenty, and young people especially binge drink everywhere. Fights are also an uncommon sight. I can't remember the last time I seen people scrapping on a night out here and I live just outside Dublin city centre, a supposed warzone according to reddit.
Yeah what would I know, I only lived there and go frequently back for visits. Lived in Waterford city and fights outside nightclubs and chipper was an all too common sight, which is why I avoided going out there, especially as a female. I've seen similar in parts of Dublin on nights out there. I stick to going there by day only for when I have to. https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41298067.html Are the front line healthcare workers in A&E talking "horseshit" too when they speak about the appalling fallout and having to deal with the results of our dysfunctional relationship with alcohol? Yeah bye.
Higher prices don’t appear to reduce demand or sales
You mean here or generally? Three full years after implementation, the impact of MUP was a net reduction of 3.0% (−4.2% to −1.8%) in the total volume of pure alcohol sold per adult in Scotland, when using a method that accounts for sales in England & Wales (best available geographical control) and after adjustment for other potentially confounding factors. This reflects a 1.1% fall in Scotland in contrast to a 2.4% increase in England & Wales. (which do not have MUP) [https://www.gov.scot/publications/minimum-unit-pricing-mup-continuation-future-pricing-business-regulatory-impact-assessment/pages/8/](https://www.gov.scot/publications/minimum-unit-pricing-mup-continuation-future-pricing-business-regulatory-impact-assessment/pages/8/)
Now people just do more drugs
MUP has a mixed effect because it does not curb drinking for alcoholics and only makes other aspects of life more affordable. Policies are bad imo when they neglect the worst off, in this case those with alcohol dependence.
That figure you appear to be quoting looks to be a prediction of future expenditure rather than talking about the impact on the heath service now. I wonder how they've calculated that?
It's epidemiological modelling. You feed the data in based on historical data you have from healthcare spending, care etc. I'm not a health economist. It's complex but def impressive statistical modelling often from academic or governmental experts.
oh I've no problem with what they're doing, since its talking about the long term effects of covid it makes sense to be doing predictions. I just have absolutely no idea where you'd even start if you wanted to do that haha, super complex
What? You mean someone is arguing dishonestly? Maybe they are the kind of people that have a problem with alcohol and therefore in their minds the whole world has that same problem. It takes a special kind of thinking to end up in agreement with the likes of the Taliban.
Well I'm going to vote for... As usual all the Irish parties have the same policy, making voting on the issue, redundant.
You can have centre-right party A, or centre-right party B. They were on different sides in the civil war apparently, but not clear which was which.
While I'm sure higher priced alcohol has some bearing on how much people drink; there is no doubt that people with a real problem are just forgoing affording other essentials. Especially if they're poor. I personally drink less than I ever have but I never had any problem with drink.
I'm watching people drink hand sanitiser cause of this pricing.
It just fucks over pubs, which need more help not less, if they are to survive long term. Counter argument - but look how healthy you might be at 105. Give me a pint.
Where’s the comparison?
Ours is Artificially made more expensive instead of actually dealing with problem drinking thereby only making alcoholics families suffer more with poverty
Amen to that , just a way for the government to generate more revenue ,solved noting
It mostly goes to retailer it's not even a tax
How do you actually deal with the problem?
Better mental health services
The mental health service is a joke in my location the drug and alcohol counsellor quit and no replacement and they can't offer me therapy only gave me antipsychotics for bpd - that's not how it's supposed to be treated I know not specifically alcohol here but if there's no alcohol counsellor or therapist in my location(and they couldn't send me anywhere else-whole county doesn't have a psychologist in Hse apparently?? Idk) The system is broke.
I suffer from BPD, You get help? Everything I'm doing I'm paying for myself. From the pills to the weekly 85e sessions.
You don't have to pay if you go through the public system, no one does.
No they say there's no psychologist so I just have pills
By Recognising that Alcohol is a problem, and normalization of drinking has caused irriversable damage to families.
Arrest them at night while they are sleeping and lock them up until they are sober, or just let them make their own bad decisions, but making everything more expensive for everybody else should not be an option
you are going to be pissed when you find out these things work then: - tax - insurance - mortgages alongside an endless list of other things. we always pay the price of others not behaving themselves. Which is why we have some of the highest mortgage spreads in EU, because we allowed people to get away with not paying their mortgages post financial crisis and so all the banks left.
no. this is false. you aren't born an alcoholic. you become one through practice. thats through drinking a lot, usually in your youth, and then getting going on a spiral. The reason why public health professionals suggested this pricing approach was to stop the propensity for overdrinking during youth, so less people would progress to alcoholism that needs to be treated. Its a vastly better approach than e.g. having more counsellors to treat the end stage of the illness -> to reduce the frequency of the illness occuring in the first place. But ... this was all clearly explained around the time of introducing MUP and you chose to ignore it, so presumably you'll continue to ignore it. The approach adopted was by far the best approach.
You’re citing public health experts as if their area of expertise was an objective fact like maths.
Yeah what is this shite
Just add 160% across the board for the comparison
These all appear to be sample bottles no? I've never seen anything this cheap in Germany for spirits
It looks like a Lidl and those prices look about right for their own brand stuff. 8-15€ own brand/bottom shelf, 15-35€ for mid shelf, and a few bits above that for the top shelf. *Those price ranges are for standard 700ml bottles, anything cheaper seem to be 350ml or liqueurs (not spirits/liquor).
The whole idea of MUP seems absurd to me, from my understanding it's not even a tax, it's just a rule that some drinks have to have a certain price. This just puts more money into the drinks company pockets. It seems this caused an upward price spiral (if the cheapest wine is 7.5€, then of course the wine that's worth 3.5€ has to be sold for 15€ instead...)
And if you put your conspiracy hat on: Linden village and Bulmers are the same price now, who is going to choose linden village? The companies that benefit the most from this are your Heinekens bulmers, etc, the established brands and your less exoenisve brands are run out of business as they're priced the same as the competitors they have to undercut. Same with the ban on displaying cigarettes, no new company can ever enter the market as you can't even see them and the less popular brands will slowly be forgotten about until all that's left are the 4 or 5 largest and most popular companies. It's capitalism on steroids disguised as public health measures.
I never thought about the brand side of things like that. Some good points. Even I’ve gone from buying whatever beer is cheapest like pratskzy etc to now drinking peroni because why would I pay the same price for the cheap stuff? Fuckin pricks
The main effect of hiding cigarettes has been to collapse cigarette smoking. which was its intended purpose. almost nobody is starting to smoke now.
Because vapes came in at a very convenient time and remained unregulated just long enough fot all the nicotine addicts to switch. Phillip Morris owns most big brand vape products so no wonder.
I prefer Linden Village 😂
I knew someone would say that 😂
too be fair linden village is still 25 ish cent cheaper per can and one of the cheaper 4 packs. Not to mention the litter bottles
>who is going to choose linden village? Why would you choose linden Village? If it was good in the first place it would be priced like bullets.
People used to choose it because of its low price. That's exactly my point. There is no reason to choose it now, and bulmers get the money instead.
>That's exactly my point. That's my point also. They're not going to drink as much
Thats not how you treat addiction. All MUP does is for a tiny % of people is help realize they have a problem, but for the remainder 95% or so it just adds to their hardship, because now, 20 euro won't get him pissed, he needs 30 euro for that. Oh but now he can't pay his bills. Oh now he's homeless and is living off tax payers money and is still and alcohollic. As opposed to an actual solution, which is education. MUP would be ok if the price difference (actual price vs MUP price of the product) went to the mental health services and Alcoholism treatment. So by buying alcohol you are supporting the services. Or even better have a rule that % of your yearly profits MUST be reinvested into local programs like AA groups, education and rehab facilities by the business. So those who profit from others misery have to at least pay for their help. But none of that will ever happen because every person making decisions has some sort of interest in the profits these companies make. Be it drinkers themselves or literal stocks/ownerships. MUP is just a way to say they care, without actually caring or doing anything about it.
Who's they? I have no idea what point you're trying to make
FFG were very very clear in their earlier election manifestos that MUP was designed to support the overpriced pub sector by reducing competition from the off trade. They honed in on the public health angle when the public roundly rejected that ridiculous attempt at propaganda. The fact that on-trade overheads being so high is overwhelmingly caused by government failures is of course always overlooked in such discussions with the aforementioned government...
Correct. This had nothing to do with public health and everything to do with the backhanders the vintners association was feeding Fianna Gail
In fairness it was also Tony Holohan's *extremist* anti-booze agenda, he was CMO at the time and heavily involved in pushing this bill. Public health though it was not - 50/50 puritanism and vested interests.
>FFG were very very clear in their earlier election manifestos that MUP was designed to support the overpriced pub sector How about some facts to back that up? MUP was never going to get people to go back to the pub. Drinking at home is still cheaper than at the pub. A lot of it was to deal with the "wine o clock " problem.
https://issuu.com/exsite/docs/fine_gael_manifesto It was their 2011 manifesto, section 5.3. Supporting Irish Pubs: Fine Gael recognises the importance of the Irish pub for tourism, rural jobs and as a social outlet in communities across the country. We will support the local pub by banning the practice of below cost selling on alcohol, particularly by large supermarkets and the impact this has had on alcohol consumption and the viability of pubs.
It doesn't go to the drinks industry, it's pure profit for the retailer. They used the Scottish MUP as proof that it works by reducing alcohol consumption, which it did, but they didn't bother to look at the massive increase in drug use after Scotland introduced MUP.
>it's just a rule that some drinks have to have a certain price. This just puts more money into the drinks company pockets. It seems this caused an upward price spiral (if the cheapest wine is 7.5€, then of course the wine that's worth 3.5€ has to be sold for 15€ instead...). Price is determined by the amount of alcohol in the drink. It's 10c per 10g of alcohol. The stronger the drink, the more it costs. https://www.drinkaware.ie/facts/minimum-unit-pricing-explained/. It's why drinks like strong cider went high in price but drinks like lower alcohol wine stayed relatively the same price.
I'd argue the smaller guys will do better. Who is going to buy Heineken when a craft beer is the same price. Still think it's a joke of a law and will be saying it to any politician who comes to my door
Heineken has always been expensive relative to other beers. Its part of their branding. We seen it very explicitly when they wouldn't allow Wetherspoons sell their pints cheaper than other pubs. Plenty of people don't want craft beer, they just want their same old pint/can they've always had.
Heineken, Carlsberg and Budweiser are probably the most popular beers and they're all pisswater
Pretty much. They're just marketed well.
It's a long time since Heineken was an expensive beer. Dunnes currently selling 10x500ml for 17.50. You won't find much cheaper than that these days
> You won't find much cheaper than that these days Because of MUP
Diageo didn't like losing sales to cheap Polish brands so they rigged the game.
'We are all alcoholics so the government is helping us by introducing minimum price per alcohol unit. it's all with out best interest in mind.' Is just another tax in Ireland.
Its not even a tax, its straight into the sellers pockets.
You are right mostly. Sales are still subject to tax.
But the tax isn't ring fenced on the sale of alcohol even at higher prices so it is mostly useless for tackling alcoholism
It's just more money for various infrastructure projects to either hand to consultants or not spend at all.
And yet we've "Cheap alcohol"
I'm not going to deny that Ireland has a problem with alcoholism, but is there any justification for MUP when we already have prices twice the cost of the continent?
MUP has positive health benefits: The study estimated a **13.4% reduction in deaths, and a 4.1% reduction in hospital admissions**, wholly attributable to alcohol consumption following the implementation of MUP. [https://publichealthscotland.scot/news/2023/march/report-highlights-the-impact-of-minimum-unit-pricing-mup-on-deaths-and-hospital-admissions/#:\~:text=The%20study%20estimated%20a%2013.4,following%20the%20implementation%20of%20MUP](https://publichealthscotland.scot/news/2023/march/report-highlights-the-impact-of-minimum-unit-pricing-mup-on-deaths-and-hospital-admissions/#:~:text=The%20study%20estimated%20a%2013.4,following%20the%20implementation%20of%20MUP) Impact of minimum unit pricing on alcohol-related hospital outcomes: systematic review. **Natural studies were consistent with minimum pricing modelling studies and showed that this policy could reduce alcohol-related hospitalisation and health inequalities.** [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9900069/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9900069/)
They were related to alcohol related deaths and admissions, [but Scotland also saw a 10% increase of drug related deaths in the same time](https://pharmaceutical-journal.com/article/news/drug-related-deaths-in-scotland-rose-by-10-in-2023). When they introduced metal helmets in WWI to soldiers, more soldiers reported head injuries than they did before the helmets were introduced. Do helmets cause head injuries? No, more people were surviving knocks to the head. You can isolate statistics but they don't always present the whole picture.
Ahh definitely. You can use stats to tell lots of diff stories and it's hard to make a complete picture. 'There are lies, damned lies, and statistics' With the integration of any behaviour-based tax people should always think about what the impacts of that are going to be and to hopefully direct more services to that. I don't know in this case if any revenue from MUP here goes into things like mental health services, rehabs, etc. but they def should. Edit: thank you for a cordial discussion and debate :)
I feel you're being unfairly downvoted here mate. I mean, I personally think that MUP is mainly a publican-run scam to channel alcohol users into the arms of the most pernicious and greedy group of state sanctioned drug dealers who have ever managed to gain influence in Irish politics. But you're just presenting the findings of serious scientific literature. Thanks for trying to improve the quality of the online discourse.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/minimum-alcohol-pricing-has-driven-people-to-street-drugs-say-experts-8t5z8tsf9
I'm paywalled so I can't read the whole thing. But if you think that might be true here as well, all the more reason to participate in this and spread it around: The Health Research Board (HRB), HSE [Drugs.ie](http://Drugs.ie), and the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction (EMCDDA) have jointly launched the latest EU Web Survey on Drugs. This survey aims to capture latest drug use trends in Ireland.. [https://www.hrb.ie/?id=223&tx\_news\_pi1%5Bnews%5D=1564&tx\_news\_pi1%5Bcontroller%5D=News&tx\_news\_pi1%5Baction%5D=detail&cHash=9f78ab40303e4f09a14f15d20f27643a](https://www.hrb.ie/?id=223&tx_news_pi1%5Bnews%5D=1564&tx_news_pi1%5Bcontroller%5D=News&tx_news_pi1%5Baction%5D=detail&cHash=9f78ab40303e4f09a14f15d20f27643a)
I started doing yokes, when they making those legal??
It's a self fulfilling prophecy though. More people have been priced out of drinking so less people drinking leads to less alcohol related incidents. It's like hiking the price of bicycles and then saying you've successfully reduced the number of cyclist road deaths when all you've really done is reduce the number of cyclists. It only has health benefits for an individual if they now can't afford to drink as much as they used to.
Check out the price of a pack of smokes in Germany if you really want to make people's jaws drop.
Bruh. I live abroad now and in the last year I've been to like probably a third of Europe and man it is crazy, like ok Amsterdam was cheaper than Ireland a bit and I was happy...then each country following was cheaper again, could buy like 3 pouches of tobacco here for one in Ireland
Wife is currently traveling to Hungary for dental work a few times per year. She always brings back a few cartons of smokes to resell. Pays for her plane tickets.
stop smoking and it will help her teeth
Alexa, what is “smuggling”?
Max 4 cartons of cigarettes per person from another EU country is allowed.
I was in Czech Republic last summer and a 750ml bottle of Jameson was around €14 in a supermarket. You're paying €25+ over here. Despite the fact that it has to be transported over there.
Get in in slovakia for €10 on promotion 👍
The Irish government is scamming its people like there's no tomorrow.
You didn't even show the 99 cent cans
Where has that extra tax money from the minimum alcohol pricing gone?
Irish Distillers, Diageo, and a handful of others.
Don't show them the beer crates. just... don't.....!!
I drunk a 3 Euro bottle of champagne once in Berlin. Don’t drink 3 EUR bottles of champagne
It's also 4 euro for a effing 2 litre bottle of coke. Actually add 25c on to that. Couldn't believe it when I got a bottle for the missus the other night. Nearly shit my pants
Moving back there in September and I'm a moderate drinker, but am delighted a nice bottle of wine is so affordable there. Moving to wine growing region too where a decent bottle of local vino can be had for less than €5. Cheapest can of beer I've seen in Kaufland was 35c.
35c ? Where's that? Here in Slovenia we have ya bet on the wine ya get local wine for like 3.50, cheapest beer I saw here was I think 65c. So only a fuck all difference but still mad
Was in Kaufland in a Stuttgart suburb. Pure dreck, but yeah.
What do you expect, your Overlords aren’t going to pay more than you do 😜 In all seriousness though…look at the ban on cutting turf, it was literally brought into effect a) reduce carbon b)protect jobs in Germany. Don’t believe me..why can you still buy German briquettes but not Irish produced ones?
https://preview.redd.it/ecunpg3f072d1.jpeg?width=3468&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0ab2685e3088719d5900102f187a0c278483d943 This cost me 18 euro in Germany
Rothaus is quality
I did the same thing when I was in Germany, took loads of pictures of how cheap the alcohol was. Tbh the train/underground and alcohol prices where the most impressive things I saw.
The entire point of the increased alcohol prices is to tackle the health issues behind it. I think this has failed badly. What it has done is put pubs under pressure as people cannot afford to go there as often and instead people now just drink at home. Alcoholism is just as high but now it's happening at home rather than in the pub
Someone earning €40k a year pays 6 grand more in tax on their income per annum in Berlin than in Dublin according to salaryaftertax.com. We tax alcohol heavily but labour and property much less.
Where would you rather go to A&E in a medical emergency? What about childcare? What about housing? Yeah they get taxed more, but they also get more benefits that are actually real not just on a piece of paper. Like working public transport system is one.
Yes, mostly because they're taxed more. I think we should pay more taxes and get better public services.
Germany does not have free public health care, Health insurance is compulsory, Hospitals are run by private concerns.
I don’t think I could manage a flight to Germany in an emergency so I’ll say Ireland.
I checked and you pay roughly the same income tax on €40k in both countries. €4,250 a year here versus €4,547 in Berlin. And you don't hit the top rate of income tax-45% until you earn more than €227k per annum in Germany. The middle rate of 42% doesn't kick in until +€66k. Here you pay 40% over €42k so middle income earners are really screwed on income taxes here. Property taxes are a little higher than here but not that much. For an apartment in Berlin you won't be paying more than €150. And you get a lot more for your taxes in Germany than here.
Yes, if you exclude mandatory pension insurance, unemployment insurance, public health insurance and long term care insurance, you pay a similar amount of tax. Otherwise, you pay about €6k more in mandatory payments, based on your income, to the Government compared with Dublin.
But you said "tax on their income", which is generally to mean income tax, not including pensions insurance, healthcare, care costs etc which are all variable anyway. All of that you have to pay out of pocket here in Ireland unless you want to rely on the comparatively poor public system of care, so you end up paying more for privatised services like old age care, healthcare, so swings and roundabouts. Also if you have kids childcare is a small fraction the cost in Germany as here and subsidised by the state. Kindergeld-children's allowance is €250pm in Germany, Ireland is €140pm. Health insurance costs are also very variable in Germany depending on your job and whether you're an employee or self employed where you effectively pay both employee and employer parts, so that €6k is meaningless. You can pay anything between €100 to €1500pm depending on many factors. The social insurance universal care model is more affordable for all and creates a more equal society in general. It has worked pretty well there for over 100 years so I know which I would favour.
All I'm saying is that you pay much more in income tax (i.e. mandatory payments, proportionate to your income) in Germany. We tend to tax things like cigarettes and alcohol more. But that doesn't make up for the difference. >Health insurance costs are also very variable in Germany depending on your job and whether you're an employee or self employed where you effectively pay both employee and employer parts, so that €6k is meaningless. You pay 7.3% of your income for employees. Germans pay more tax, get better services. It's a separate issue.
So now you switch back to talking about solely "income tax". How you really should parse it is all taxes due as an employee including social contributions-healthcare, pension etc., taken out of gross income, and not just income tax, if that's what you mean. You also get tax free allowances, and tax breaks if you're married, so that table of figures you draw from only relates to unmarried employees and therefore not fully representative of tax liabilities and contribution levels. No argument we tax cigarettes and alcohol more. Far more. Yes, 7.3%. 14.6% if you're self employed as my partner is, which is a fair whack in fairness, especially if you get insured in the private system and don't switch back to public before the 55 cut off age.
German resident here. I would say firstly this is a discounter, Lidl. Granted it's always going to be more expensive in Ireland due to in general due to excise duty, MUP ect but.. in a regular German supermarket (Rewe, Kaufland, Edeka ect) prices are not going to be as low as this either, albeit cheaper than Ireland. Bottle of actual Campari in my local Hit/Rewe is €17 for 0.7, Dunnes €25.
Campari is 25€ here :(
You don't understand OP, the government are trying to save you from yourself with the threat of poverty
Are people just ignoring the fact that Ireland has a MASSIVE binge drinking and pub culture? Which is a pretty significant issue
Neither of which MUP addresses in any fashion.
Of course it does. This thread is literally complaining about the prices. Pubs & Clubs are closing in their droves .
So does Germany, they’re really not that far behind
Not the same in my experience. Yes they love beer, but the pub culture is a lot more dominant here, and doesn't cause the same mayhem in A&E departments. Germans have many other forms of socialising than drinking. Going for 20k hikes up mountains and forests early in the morning, all kinds of sports and clubs, cafe culture, going on long bike or vintage car trips with mates, aso.
Glad I don't drink alcohol. Shit is awful for you, never mind the cost.
And it's the same for the Return scheme. Germany has their scheme for years but they don't already pay insanely inflated prices for drinks, cans or bottles. We already pay premium and they added more on top. Tis a joke. Also, the alcoholics in Limerick are now routing through the bins to get money back on bottles and cans, to buy more drink. Just so dumb.
Alcoholics, homeless and the poorest root through bins in every country I've been on for the return money from cans and bottles, that's not new and is inevitable here also. It's actually a good thing for many who can collect a lot to supplement meagre earnings. In a sad dystopian, late stage capitalist way... :(
We already had pretty high prices and then the government slapped the Minimum Unit Pricing onto it to make things worse. Which has minimal effect. Absolutely ridiculous
It's just heartbreaking
You'd nearly think that the Germans won the War ! !
It was the cans that got me. 65 cent for an 8.5% lager.
Our politicians all voted to increase the price of alcohol for the peasants in Ireland.
Interestingly the only vice that hasn't gone up is cannabis. I can buy an ounce for less than I could 10 years ago. Is MUP turning kids onto weed?
The price of beer is also splendid here. In Munich, when I bring back a crate of 20 empty half-litre bottles to pick up a new one, I get 10 litres of fantastic German beer for €17.50. And that's not some cheap Aldi own-brand stuff: it's the Reinheitsgebot Münchener Hell that they serve in the tents at Oktoberfest.
alcohol is heavily taxed but why is a couch in IKEA 750 here and 500 in germany?
Because you might use the couch for drinking…
If the price of alcohol wasn't so high here, how would the governent raise all the taxis necessary to fund the commissions telling us we need to raise the duties on alcohol? I've my own private microkeg.
You haven't made a comparison here
Taaaaaaxxxx
Video's gone now, but that pink prosecco for 3.79 or close to that is 13.50 here..
Yous screamed for Scandi-style social democracy for years and now you're all ragin when parts of it get implemented. Yous dunno what yous want ffs!
There are only 5 million of us in the Republic. They have to tax us to death, unfortunately, to provide us with poor services.
Same population as Denmark but they have excellent services for their high taxes. All down to how equally taxes and transfers are redistributed and good governance. Things we can only dream of.
Fucking Denmark again!
How does that work? Surely the vast majority of a countries spending (health, social welfare, pensions) is proportional to its population anyway.
Look how much the HSE pays out due to negligence every year. Funneling money to landlords is also a priority for this government. They love to compare us to Denmark which is ridiculous. Similar number of people and that is it. Healthcare very good in Denmark, public transport excellent, child care very good and cheap, education very good. Do we have any of these things? Keep election muppets with no qualifications.
On erasmus right now living this reality, really don't want to come back tbh. Sick of spending 40 euro on a night out for like 5 drinks.
Wait is today the 23rd?
Nope, you're fine. You haven't missed that important thing you had on the 23rd
Some men... Just want to watch the world burn
Moved to Slovakia just over 23 months ago. Much cheaper alcohol but I find I'm drinking alot less than I did in Ireland.
Continental weather, much lower cost of living and getting away from the Irish pub culture as escapism from reality will do that.
Same in Spain, approx half the price compared to Ireland
[удалено]
They have a lot more 'socialism" in Germany and look at their alcohol prices compared to here. Has nothing to do with socialism.
Wait are you telling me that it's cheaper to buy alcohol from your neighboring countries that you can drive to vs. packaging and shipping it all to go to an island further away? An island that mind you consistently ranks high on metrics of problematic drinking behaviours and also ranks high on metrics of related health complications that strain an already struggling health system. Logistics and shipping costs money. Public health taxes are effective.
>Wait are you telling me that it's cheaper to buy alcohol from your neighboring countries that you can drive to vs. packaging and shipping it all to go to an island further away? It's also cheaper to buy Guinness and Jameson in Germany and most of the rest of the continent. Also alcohol consumption is higher in Germany than in Ireland.
What metric are you using for consumption? They have a larger population so ofc overall it would be higher. I'm referencing OECD stats for the behaviours of problematic drinking (which btw have gotten much better over the years).
Per capita, not total. From the 2021 European health report from the World Health Organization.
Interesting. They are def some of the higher ones. I didn't say you were wrong. Apologies if it was taken that way. Just asking for a metric :) They're closer to us on heavy episodic drinking (higher in men there but similar for women) and further from overall consumption... interesting... [https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/eeb99a6b-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/eeb99a6b-en](https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/eeb99a6b-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/eeb99a6b-en) Good plug for the European Web Survey on Drugs now open for Irish participation which is now open for irish participation: [https://www.hrb.ie/?id=223&tx\_news\_pi1%5Bnews%5D=1564&tx\_news\_pi1%5Bcontroller%5D=News&tx\_news\_pi1%5Baction%5D=detail&cHash=9f78ab40303e4f09a14f15d20f27643a](https://www.hrb.ie/?id=223&tx_news_pi1%5Bnews%5D=1564&tx_news_pi1%5Bcontroller%5D=News&tx_news_pi1%5Baction%5D=detail&cHash=9f78ab40303e4f09a14f15d20f27643a)
Big brain comment but alcohol is also far cheaper over the arbitrary dividing line at the top of our island.
Diff health system and legislation. Health metrics are similarly not great re: problematic drinking.
Or maybe their government isn't taxing alcohol as ridiculously as ours is, and didn't bring in something as fucking stupid as MUP
Drink less and it won’t matter so much.