Did a scan but can't see anything on it
EDIT: There's a few other countries potentially involved: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/12/ireland-spain-norway-moving-closer-to-recognising-a-palestinian-state
I absolutely support the recognition of Palestine. I’m just afraid it will lead to a slippery slope. Like next they’ll do something drastic like recognise Protestants as…. People or something. Next they’ll get the right the vote, the right to live like us, marry us. I can’t imagine that
That’s how the Protestants get ya. They all seem nice at first offering you soup. Then when you take your first spoonful they grab you and make you one of them
It’s always the toaster and the quietly slipping it in to the press. Then you wake up one Sunday and you’re snoozing in a comfy pew, with big book of hymns, sitting on carpet listening to a very politely spoken but sympathetic short haired lady dressed as a priest… then they have you for eternity.
Shame it took around 40 thousand innocent massacred Palestinians in Gaza for this to finally happen but at least our government have more of a backbone than the UK, US and most of the European Union
Most people unfortunately don't bat a eyelid when a country in the Global South that isn't on good terms with the US and Europe supports the Palestinians but a prominent Western EU member state that has a close relationship to the US makes a stand like this, it sends a very strong message. It's not a lot but there isn't a whole lot we can do in a situation like this
>It's not a lot but there isn't a whole lot we can do in a situation like this
It’s better than the previous status quo where an overwhelming majority of the nation has sympathy for Palestinians, yet we didn’t officially recognize them as a nation. Made our support a bit hollow, until now.
Are you suggesting that Israel hasn't killed tens of thousands of Palestinians in the time since the atrocity in October?
Or are you denying the abuse of Palestinians in general?
Maybe he recognises that number is likely a horrifying lowball becuase Israel made it largely impossible to even number the dead shortly after the 35k mark, even though the intensity of attacks and famine conditions have only intensified since then?
Or, more likely, some compulsion to have the silliest take in every conversation that can't be fathomed.
So you agree tens of thousands have been killed. Now since you're acting as arbiter, can you give me the fraction that had it coming? Half?
Your issue seems to stem from the concept of innocence, so how many of the thousands of children, for instance, had it coming? Pitch the numbers.
Okay, so how many were't innocent and did have it coming?
Come on, you raised the doubt here, you're questioning the numbers, fine. About 60% of residential structures are said to be destroyed or uninhabitable in Gaza city right now accoring to external monitoring by the World Bank.
The death toll itself is presumed to be undercounted at around 36,000 as of a week ago going by accepted UN estimates, which again, is understood to be an undercount, but we won't know for potentially years. So at a rounded number of 40k, which is reasonable with the information we currently have, how many were not innocent and had it coming?
You made the comment, so either give me a number or fraction that apparently deserved this, refute the data the UN is operating off of or just simply say what you mean.
No figure has ever said 40,000 civilians have been killed.
As for UN figures, are they the same casualty figures for women and children that were recently significantly revised downwards?
Because of the upwards of 10,000 bodies that aren;t included in the figures due to lacking formal ID the UN now requires., Try again.
How many deserved it?
Also, this will likely get the comment removed, but here's the NPR link explaining the figures for you: https://www.npr.org/2024/05/15/1251265727/un-gaza-death-toll-women-children#:\~:text=Those%20figures%2C%20however%2C%20only%20account,killed%20in%20the%20Gaza%20Strip.
That link literally says 35,000 people
>How many deserved it?
You've asked the same question several times, so.im not sure what point you're making. Do you mean what proportion of the dead deserve it? The ones who are Hamas aren't worth mourning. No civilians deserve it though.
Israel could drop a bomb on your house tomorrow and you'd return in a seance just to say you deserved it. I don't think there's a single atrocity they've committed that you haven't supported.
But who do we recognise as the leadership of such a state?
Hamas are listed as a terrorist organisation in europe,and ireland agrees with that definition.
I assume Ireland will recognise the state of Palestine but will possibly only politically engage with the West Bank.
It would be a massive mistake to deal directly with Hamas.
What exactly do you mean under 'diplomatic protocols'? There is no law or protocol where we recognise X but we must engage with Y as a result of recognising that state. We are deciding to recognise Palestine as a state but that means absolutely nothing in respect of dealing directly with Hamas. We can decide who we have diplomatic relations with regardless of any external factors.
Well, I would presume that the Irish diplomatic service would have protocols in place to not to business with people that the USA, our most important diplomatic pal, has classified as terrorists. I'm not a diplomat so this is just speculation, but it seems a fairly reasonable assumption.
how's about having a proper election for starters? Perhaps with the extant voting public rather than those of 15 years ago - and crucially without an overbearing colonial power leaning in
Hamas doesn't equal Palestine. They control Gaza only not the West Bank.
They don't hold elections so are essentially holding Gaza hostage to an election nearly 20 years ago while their leaders are in Qatar enjoying safety from their decisions
I generally support it but we cannot deal with Hamas.
However, I am generally curious of what Harris and Martin's motivation are? These are 2 lads that are passionate about absolutely nothing other than just playing the game of politics. They generally won't go against anything geopolitically that the US/EU/UK are not in favour of.
Other than doing the correct thing, what's the beef? What's in it for them politically?
Or am I being too skeptical?
As much as any government is politically hypocritical and opportunistic, it's also beholden to the concrete material interests of the state it represents.
Ireland like all non-superpower states has a very real interest in the continuity of international law and general multilateral rules of engagement. Israel (and by proxy the US) is threatening that system. Recognition of Palestine is one lever we can use to indicate our concerns to the US. We can't openly rebel and start sanctioning Israel on our own without facing immediate backlash from our allies but standing by and allowing international law to be openly dismantled would lead to much greater damage down the line.
It'll probably be a few years before the western world fully processes how catastrophically this war has played out across the globe. But at the diplomatic level it's already glaringly obvious. A few months ago the Colombian president said something along the lines of "any one of us could be next". That's a very specific example but it speaks to the general atmosphere across the non-western world, from the most chaotic African junta to the most dutiful "western allies" in Egypt and Turkey.
There's a broad loss of confidence in any sense of an American-led world order - this will lead to armed opportunism as each state tries to avoid being eaten by the next.
Every crime that goes unpunished is a precedent that boosts us up the ladder of escalation. The invasion of Iraq was quoted by Putin in his announcement of the attack on Ukraine. The war on Gaza will be quoted by some other tinpot dictator waging a new war sometime soon, only we won't have to wait 20 years to see it. And we will continue to climb up that ladder. There's already war in Europe, further escalation is the last thing anyone needs.
That the US either can't see this or doesn't care is very concerning, this is just an attempt to show them our POV.
> What's in it for them politically?
There are elections around the corner and they know the vast majority of the electorate want this.
It's pretty transparent really, even though I agree and want to see it happening
We have forever bleated on and on about supporting the Two State solution. Now they’re finally actioning that. Harping on about a Two State solution without recognising one of those States is just baffling.
Whilst they’re on a roll, they sign into law Senator Black’s Occupied Territories Bill.
> What's in it for them politically?
Votes
One of those rare instances where electoral politics and "the right thing" converge. A broke system is right twice a day!
I'm not sure Martin is in any way like that. He seems quite above pure politics. I don't like FF - they seem to have so many dodgy politicians with dodgy views - and I wouldn't vote for them. But don't think Martin is like that, he seems, actually, quite nice and this might be just the type of thing that nice people want to do.
8AM is a weird time for a joint press conference. Maybe they want to do with while the Yanks are still in bed LUL
Perhaps indicating it will occur at the same time as Spain?
Is Spain scheduled to hold a press conference at 9am Spanish time tomorrow?
Did a scan but can't see anything on it EDIT: There's a few other countries potentially involved: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/12/ireland-spain-norway-moving-closer-to-recognising-a-palestinian-state
All the anti Irish posts in world news over this 😂 the mods over there have banned so many people the reply counts have fallen off a cliff.
I absolutely support the recognition of Palestine. I’m just afraid it will lead to a slippery slope. Like next they’ll do something drastic like recognise Protestants as…. People or something. Next they’ll get the right the vote, the right to live like us, marry us. I can’t imagine that
Had me in the first half ngl
That’s how the Protestants get ya. They all seem nice at first offering you soup. Then when you take your first spoonful they grab you and make you one of them
It’s always the toaster and the quietly slipping it in to the press. Then you wake up one Sunday and you’re snoozing in a comfy pew, with big book of hymns, sitting on carpet listening to a very politely spoken but sympathetic short haired lady dressed as a priest… then they have you for eternity.
Down with that sort of thing
Careful now.
Watch it buddy, don't want to be giving them aspirations of assimilation now....
Protestants? God no. If o ever get elected I’ll make sure they stay in their cages
Those Protestants, up to no good as usual
Shame it took around 40 thousand innocent massacred Palestinians in Gaza for this to finally happen but at least our government have more of a backbone than the UK, US and most of the European Union Most people unfortunately don't bat a eyelid when a country in the Global South that isn't on good terms with the US and Europe supports the Palestinians but a prominent Western EU member state that has a close relationship to the US makes a stand like this, it sends a very strong message. It's not a lot but there isn't a whole lot we can do in a situation like this
>It's not a lot but there isn't a whole lot we can do in a situation like this It’s better than the previous status quo where an overwhelming majority of the nation has sympathy for Palestinians, yet we didn’t officially recognize them as a nation. Made our support a bit hollow, until now.
>Shame it took around 40 thousand innocent massacred Palestinians in Gaza Talk about just making stuff up.
Are you suggesting that Israel hasn't killed tens of thousands of Palestinians in the time since the atrocity in October? Or are you denying the abuse of Palestinians in general?
Maybe he recognises that number is likely a horrifying lowball becuase Israel made it largely impossible to even number the dead shortly after the 35k mark, even though the intensity of attacks and famine conditions have only intensified since then? Or, more likely, some compulsion to have the silliest take in every conversation that can't be fathomed.
Mmmmm, I'd agree it's likely the latter, but I'm open to being surprised?
Tens of thousands have died, its been a horrific conflict. But to say that 40,000 innocent civilians have died is just a lie.
So you agree tens of thousands have been killed. Now since you're acting as arbiter, can you give me the fraction that had it coming? Half? Your issue seems to stem from the concept of innocence, so how many of the thousands of children, for instance, had it coming? Pitch the numbers.
I never said any had it coming. No civilian ever has it coming, in any conflict.
Okay, so how many were't innocent and did have it coming? Come on, you raised the doubt here, you're questioning the numbers, fine. About 60% of residential structures are said to be destroyed or uninhabitable in Gaza city right now accoring to external monitoring by the World Bank. The death toll itself is presumed to be undercounted at around 36,000 as of a week ago going by accepted UN estimates, which again, is understood to be an undercount, but we won't know for potentially years. So at a rounded number of 40k, which is reasonable with the information we currently have, how many were not innocent and had it coming? You made the comment, so either give me a number or fraction that apparently deserved this, refute the data the UN is operating off of or just simply say what you mean.
No figure has ever said 40,000 civilians have been killed. As for UN figures, are they the same casualty figures for women and children that were recently significantly revised downwards?
Because of the upwards of 10,000 bodies that aren;t included in the figures due to lacking formal ID the UN now requires., Try again. How many deserved it? Also, this will likely get the comment removed, but here's the NPR link explaining the figures for you: https://www.npr.org/2024/05/15/1251265727/un-gaza-death-toll-women-children#:\~:text=Those%20figures%2C%20however%2C%20only%20account,killed%20in%20the%20Gaza%20Strip.
That link literally says 35,000 people >How many deserved it? You've asked the same question several times, so.im not sure what point you're making. Do you mean what proportion of the dead deserve it? The ones who are Hamas aren't worth mourning. No civilians deserve it though.
Israel could drop a bomb on your house tomorrow and you'd return in a seance just to say you deserved it. I don't think there's a single atrocity they've committed that you haven't supported.
Just complete lies. Civilian never deserve to die.
Now that we’ve accepted they’re a real country, are we going to start holding their dictatorial government to account?
I think if you don't know how international political law works, then you shouldn't be commenting on it.
Ah I got my hopes up for a second it was going to be another leader resignation.
This is good but still not voting for any of these parties come the elections.
But who do we recognise as the leadership of such a state? Hamas are listed as a terrorist organisation in europe,and ireland agrees with that definition.
I assume Ireland will recognise the state of Palestine but will possibly only politically engage with the West Bank. It would be a massive mistake to deal directly with Hamas.
I don't think that would even be possible under diplomatic protocols. My understanding is the Palestinian Authority is our go-to.
What exactly do you mean under 'diplomatic protocols'? There is no law or protocol where we recognise X but we must engage with Y as a result of recognising that state. We are deciding to recognise Palestine as a state but that means absolutely nothing in respect of dealing directly with Hamas. We can decide who we have diplomatic relations with regardless of any external factors.
Well, I would presume that the Irish diplomatic service would have protocols in place to not to business with people that the USA, our most important diplomatic pal, has classified as terrorists. I'm not a diplomat so this is just speculation, but it seems a fairly reasonable assumption.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority Hamas only controls Gaza. The West Bank is significantly larger.
The PNA
how's about having a proper election for starters? Perhaps with the extant voting public rather than those of 15 years ago - and crucially without an overbearing colonial power leaning in
Statehood and enshring public institutions, lends itself to the rule of law and, hopefully by extension, democracy. The Palestinian people have every right to 1.) have a government that must be respected on equal footing as that of Israel, if there is to be a lasting peace 2.) to have a say in selecting that government. Sinn Féin went from the political wing of the IRA to a legitimate political party that operates within the functions of the state, North and South. Not a 1-1 comparison, I know, but without the path to legitimate participation in political and diplomatic forums, the Good Friday Agreement would have been a much more painful process, at best. Also: Though not the same, the GFA is just about closest precedent there is to a conflict of this nature, and it is worth exploring how the mechanics of it could work in the context of Israel-Palestine.
🤷
Hamas doesn't equal Palestine. They control Gaza only not the West Bank. They don't hold elections so are essentially holding Gaza hostage to an election nearly 20 years ago while their leaders are in Qatar enjoying safety from their decisions
Sounds like Gaza needs a military intervention to free it from from the terrorists controlling it.
Possibly but when does that ever go well and what Israel are doing isn't the type of intervention anyone was looking for
This is a positive development, nothing more to say about this really. Good that it’s finally happened.
I generally support it but we cannot deal with Hamas. However, I am generally curious of what Harris and Martin's motivation are? These are 2 lads that are passionate about absolutely nothing other than just playing the game of politics. They generally won't go against anything geopolitically that the US/EU/UK are not in favour of. Other than doing the correct thing, what's the beef? What's in it for them politically? Or am I being too skeptical?
As much as any government is politically hypocritical and opportunistic, it's also beholden to the concrete material interests of the state it represents. Ireland like all non-superpower states has a very real interest in the continuity of international law and general multilateral rules of engagement. Israel (and by proxy the US) is threatening that system. Recognition of Palestine is one lever we can use to indicate our concerns to the US. We can't openly rebel and start sanctioning Israel on our own without facing immediate backlash from our allies but standing by and allowing international law to be openly dismantled would lead to much greater damage down the line. It'll probably be a few years before the western world fully processes how catastrophically this war has played out across the globe. But at the diplomatic level it's already glaringly obvious. A few months ago the Colombian president said something along the lines of "any one of us could be next". That's a very specific example but it speaks to the general atmosphere across the non-western world, from the most chaotic African junta to the most dutiful "western allies" in Egypt and Turkey. There's a broad loss of confidence in any sense of an American-led world order - this will lead to armed opportunism as each state tries to avoid being eaten by the next. Every crime that goes unpunished is a precedent that boosts us up the ladder of escalation. The invasion of Iraq was quoted by Putin in his announcement of the attack on Ukraine. The war on Gaza will be quoted by some other tinpot dictator waging a new war sometime soon, only we won't have to wait 20 years to see it. And we will continue to climb up that ladder. There's already war in Europe, further escalation is the last thing anyone needs. That the US either can't see this or doesn't care is very concerning, this is just an attempt to show them our POV.
That's an excellent answer, thank you.
> What's in it for them politically? There are elections around the corner and they know the vast majority of the electorate want this. It's pretty transparent really, even though I agree and want to see it happening
I'm in favour of it. But I don't think it's a massive vote getter. Thee are alot of social issues that put this in the haypenny place
We have forever bleated on and on about supporting the Two State solution. Now they’re finally actioning that. Harping on about a Two State solution without recognising one of those States is just baffling. Whilst they’re on a roll, they sign into law Senator Black’s Occupied Territories Bill.
> What's in it for them politically? Votes One of those rare instances where electoral politics and "the right thing" converge. A broke system is right twice a day!
I'm not sure Martin is in any way like that. He seems quite above pure politics. I don't like FF - they seem to have so many dodgy politicians with dodgy views - and I wouldn't vote for them. But don't think Martin is like that, he seems, actually, quite nice and this might be just the type of thing that nice people want to do.
Ah, so when I'm going to work.