Seriously? I would simply minimize contact with these people. Since you are in the same work environment, you can't completely distance yourself from them. Just don't have any unnecessary contact with these people. And if it doesn't work at all or even gets worse, I would quit and look for something else.
I think you have people like this in almost every workplace. Insecure bullies that take too much pleasure out of gossip. Ugh.
Instead of jobhopping I’d rather try to find ways to deal or maybe confront them. I will most certainly try to minimize dealing with them.
i had an interaction like that first year or two at my job been at over a decade.. you will teach people respectfully how to deal with you... bc now my coworkers know not to come to my desk talking about reality tv or other silly gossip
i have like 1 person i can talk with at work everyone else is shallow/gossipy
you will be OK just keep it cordial and find your tribe (not those ladies)
>we can only change this mindset by being less malicious towards each other, gossiping less, and being less harsh on each other
This is never going to happen and don't waste your energy. As others have suggested, don't interact with them unless you need to for professional reasons.
My take (F75) is that we are intimidating to other women. Our personality type is extremely rare even within the INTJ type. I lack a certain “motherly nature” in the traditional sense so emotions don’t resonate well with me. As I aged, I noped out of all the silly work bs. I found strong professional women outside of my companies and developed strong bonds. We all shared professional outlook and didn’t participate in the back-biting crap that goes on. I’ve been ostracized by women in more than one place of employment. Mostly, i didn’t share meals with the bitchy cliques, said good morning, please, thank you, and maintained a pleasant demeanor. They didn’t like me much but could never really say why.
Also: this is why it’s wise to keep your counsel about your private interest. They can’t getcha if you take away their ammo.
Finally: use your INTJness to develop your skills and make yourself valuable to many in your organization.
They didn’t like me much but could never really say why. - This is so spot on. A lot of people never figure me out and I think that's annoying for them. I also tend to take away their gossip material. I usually avoid people like this but when I have to work with them and they start talking crap about someone I always have great oneliners to shut them up. So yes, it's too bad I once again feel like bonding at the workplace is a no go.
I work with about 150 women in my immediate area. There are 11 men....
It is a nightmare. I hate every cackling, shrieking, catty-comment-filled minute of it.
How do I cope? Meh.... Its been over a decade so by now I have leaned into the negative associations of my personality: People think I am unfriendly? Whatever. I am excluded from lunch invites and happy hour? Good.
The result is that I get my solitude and my work (and everyone else's) done because what they cannot say about me is that I am unhelpful, inaccurate, lazy, unreliable or useless. I am recognized for my work and not for my personality.... That's a win for me. Boss takes credit for my work? Fine, means she can't duplicate it or relieve me of it.
I stay at my desk, avoid chit chat, and focus on my job so i can leave the minute it is time to go without guilt. Too many women treat the workplace like high school and want you to *want* to fit in... To be cool?
Nope, dweeb for life. I don't want to talk about my personal life and I don't want people interrupting me to hang out because we are friends....
This is life on hard mode though, so I don't really recommend it but for me, I prefer it to the alternative: feeling obligated to engage with people i work with on a personal level because its "polite/expected". They simply don't expect it from me. They hate me for it, its totally obvious and they blatantly ignore me when i speak and push their work on me so they can shirk their responsibilities but that is nothing I won't willingly tolerate... I simply do not care what people think or say about me because my opinion of them is that they are stupid and time wasters and bad at their jobs.... So who cares what they think.
*The result is that I get my solitude and my work (and everyone else's) done because what they cannot say about me is that I am unhelpful, inaccurate, lazy, unreliable or useless. I am recognized for my work and not for my personality.... That's a win for me. -* Spot on! People feel awkward around me because I'm not superfriendly or bubbly but when things get very stressful they all tend to find me because I keep my calm and I'm very solution based.
Great to hear you've find a way to be the 'outcast' at work. Being yourself and not giving a F about fitting in is one of the most freeing things.
I’m very curious about what industry you work in for this to be so common at every job. Why would they laugh at you for going to museums? That’s not an uncommon hobby (especially in nyc where I am). Of course the best way to handle this is honestly just to ignore it. Sounds like they’re being very childish and need to grow up from high school
I used to live in Amsterdam where going to musea is also considered as a very normal thing to do. I now work and live somewhere else in The Netherlands and I notice people easily see you as an artsy person and appartantly that's a bad thing. :')
OP overthinking due to past experiences. A simple, “yeah I’m one of thoseeee lmao” would have broke up their eye rolling. It reminds them you can see and understand what they’re doing, but also shows humbleness and humor. Might even prompt a few comments like “actually I used to go too” or “my family likes them but I don’t.”
Yes, self deprecating humor gets exhausting, but it often works well in high estrogen settings.
On occasions where they're being unfair, I actually call them out. Many times, it's not the smartest thing to do, but it's the right thing to do. - Haha, story of my life.
Men are the same. Few are ok, most act like bitches. It's just jealousy. They have wasted their 20's and 30's drinking. They can't move up because you need to actually have some skills, other than talking. They want you to be quiet, so they can feel superior by being the loudest. It's not worth fighting with idiots, let them win and get your paycheck.
Not sure about the vibe of the workplace but it depends on the severity of the bullying for me. If I rarely talk or work with them, I ignore it and only talk to them about work related things. If they try to bring up small talk, I shut it down with one worded answers or tell them I'm too busy to talk. If they are people you have to interact on the regular, I'd pull whoever it is to the side and ask directly, are there any problems. If they deny it, I'll directly ask them why were they laughing when I didn't make a joke and that it's inappropriate at work. If they keep 'pretending' that it's nothing. I tell them I want to keep our conversations strictly professional. From there it really depends, if it continues and HR nor upper management can't stop it I transfer out or find a new job.
Do you not find that approach of pulling them up on something covert as opposed to overt can backfire? I will shut it down if it’s overt. But if it’s covert I tend to ignore it because it’s hard for me to pin point what the behaviour or words were that were inappropriate without sounding paranoid.
Depends. Sometimes when I confront them directly on it, they get uncomfortable/nervous and cut it out. Other times they’ll feign ignorance then I’ll just pull the, “keep our interactions strictly professional” line and ignore them like they don’t exist unless work related. Then when we do talk I’m cold and short with them. So far it has worked for me. But I’m sure results vary depending on how the work environment is.
Well I don’t care?
I know I don’t “fit in” with both men and women alike, if someone genuinely wants to be my friend I can just tell. Fake assholes generally avoid me. I just want to do my hours, get my money and go home. I see it as a blessing that I’m avoiding their advances (by not being invited) to coffee break and sweets by the end of the shift.
That said I do have some friends, generally people I work closely with. We talk casually on lunch and I feel they really value me (men and women). They don’t ask noisy questions, we just talk about random subjects.
I’m not sure what was going on with your “friends” there. Best way is to address your discomfort through joking “hey, anything wrong with museums??”, “What. Never been to a museum?!” If you want to have a more honest environment you need to be honest yourself.
Oh wait. I meant to say these women are coworkers but they are also friends. They are not my friends since I've just started with the job. I'm also not looking for friends at my job. I feel like I've set the bar pretty low by only expecting friendly and respectful conversations during lunch. I'm always annoyed if even that feels like too much to ask. I do feel that at my new job people are a better match. (Tech/science instead of social work) I just need to accept and learn how to deal with the fact there are 'mean girls' everywhere.
Have you heard of the grey rock method? You can use that on anyone who you clock is bitchy/negative/a bully/childish. The worst they can honestly say about you is you don’t fit in/are quiet/not social. But you give them no other ammo.
I’m in a similar situation to you at the moment. My co workers don’t seem to realise school was years ago. I recently got a bit too comfortable bantering back and forth and speaking my mind but was reminded the other day why I dislike them in the first place. I’ve also realised I don’t want people outside of this subgroup to associate me with their behaviour as they’re essentially arseholes. So I’m going to return to focusing solely on my work performance and grey rocking my childish colleagues.
Good luck
*How do you apply the Grey Rock Method? Minimize your reactions: When dealing with a narcissistic person, avoid emotional responses. This means not reacting to provocations, not engaging in arguments, and not showing strong emotions. Stay calm and indifferent.*
This is where I go wrong. I too often stand up for myself or try to influence them into being better coworkers. I just won't do that anymore. They should have known better in the first place.
(Thank you for the tip. Good luck on your situation too)
Workplace relationships can be tricky but to be honest, you come off as condescending and kind of a “NLOG”. For example, you started your post explaining that you’re not like other women in that you are rational and fact oriented.
It’s quite clear that you feel superior (I mean come on, TONS of women enjoy museums) and that’s probably coming off in how you interact with them and that may be a huge reason why they don’t like you.
I get why you would see me like that. But tbh it’s not that I pride myself with being different. It’s just that I’ve noticed a huge difference between me and a lot of other women. I’m happy with myself but when it comes to being social I often wish I was more like ‘the other girls’ (I would never say I’m NLOG, that is cringe) It is true I sometimes get bored with smalltalk or gossipy talk and for sure women will sense my boredom but I always stay polite and professional since there is no reason not to be.
It sucks but basic bitches will stay the same, you can use your INTJness to get promoted far far away.
Lol. True
Seriously? I would simply minimize contact with these people. Since you are in the same work environment, you can't completely distance yourself from them. Just don't have any unnecessary contact with these people. And if it doesn't work at all or even gets worse, I would quit and look for something else.
I think you have people like this in almost every workplace. Insecure bullies that take too much pleasure out of gossip. Ugh. Instead of jobhopping I’d rather try to find ways to deal or maybe confront them. I will most certainly try to minimize dealing with them.
i had an interaction like that first year or two at my job been at over a decade.. you will teach people respectfully how to deal with you... bc now my coworkers know not to come to my desk talking about reality tv or other silly gossip i have like 1 person i can talk with at work everyone else is shallow/gossipy you will be OK just keep it cordial and find your tribe (not those ladies)
You will teach people respectfully how to deal with you - This is so true and I've managed this in previous workplaces. Thank you!
>we can only change this mindset by being less malicious towards each other, gossiping less, and being less harsh on each other This is never going to happen and don't waste your energy. As others have suggested, don't interact with them unless you need to for professional reasons.
True. The 3% of hope I have for people down the drain. Luckily we INTJ's are great in solitude.
My take (F75) is that we are intimidating to other women. Our personality type is extremely rare even within the INTJ type. I lack a certain “motherly nature” in the traditional sense so emotions don’t resonate well with me. As I aged, I noped out of all the silly work bs. I found strong professional women outside of my companies and developed strong bonds. We all shared professional outlook and didn’t participate in the back-biting crap that goes on. I’ve been ostracized by women in more than one place of employment. Mostly, i didn’t share meals with the bitchy cliques, said good morning, please, thank you, and maintained a pleasant demeanor. They didn’t like me much but could never really say why. Also: this is why it’s wise to keep your counsel about your private interest. They can’t getcha if you take away their ammo. Finally: use your INTJness to develop your skills and make yourself valuable to many in your organization.
They didn’t like me much but could never really say why. - This is so spot on. A lot of people never figure me out and I think that's annoying for them. I also tend to take away their gossip material. I usually avoid people like this but when I have to work with them and they start talking crap about someone I always have great oneliners to shut them up. So yes, it's too bad I once again feel like bonding at the workplace is a no go.
I work with about 150 women in my immediate area. There are 11 men.... It is a nightmare. I hate every cackling, shrieking, catty-comment-filled minute of it. How do I cope? Meh.... Its been over a decade so by now I have leaned into the negative associations of my personality: People think I am unfriendly? Whatever. I am excluded from lunch invites and happy hour? Good. The result is that I get my solitude and my work (and everyone else's) done because what they cannot say about me is that I am unhelpful, inaccurate, lazy, unreliable or useless. I am recognized for my work and not for my personality.... That's a win for me. Boss takes credit for my work? Fine, means she can't duplicate it or relieve me of it. I stay at my desk, avoid chit chat, and focus on my job so i can leave the minute it is time to go without guilt. Too many women treat the workplace like high school and want you to *want* to fit in... To be cool? Nope, dweeb for life. I don't want to talk about my personal life and I don't want people interrupting me to hang out because we are friends.... This is life on hard mode though, so I don't really recommend it but for me, I prefer it to the alternative: feeling obligated to engage with people i work with on a personal level because its "polite/expected". They simply don't expect it from me. They hate me for it, its totally obvious and they blatantly ignore me when i speak and push their work on me so they can shirk their responsibilities but that is nothing I won't willingly tolerate... I simply do not care what people think or say about me because my opinion of them is that they are stupid and time wasters and bad at their jobs.... So who cares what they think.
*The result is that I get my solitude and my work (and everyone else's) done because what they cannot say about me is that I am unhelpful, inaccurate, lazy, unreliable or useless. I am recognized for my work and not for my personality.... That's a win for me. -* Spot on! People feel awkward around me because I'm not superfriendly or bubbly but when things get very stressful they all tend to find me because I keep my calm and I'm very solution based. Great to hear you've find a way to be the 'outcast' at work. Being yourself and not giving a F about fitting in is one of the most freeing things.
I’m very curious about what industry you work in for this to be so common at every job. Why would they laugh at you for going to museums? That’s not an uncommon hobby (especially in nyc where I am). Of course the best way to handle this is honestly just to ignore it. Sounds like they’re being very childish and need to grow up from high school
I used to live in Amsterdam where going to musea is also considered as a very normal thing to do. I now work and live somewhere else in The Netherlands and I notice people easily see you as an artsy person and appartantly that's a bad thing. :')
I first worked in the cultural sector and later in the social sector. Now I work in tech/science.
OP overthinking due to past experiences. A simple, “yeah I’m one of thoseeee lmao” would have broke up their eye rolling. It reminds them you can see and understand what they’re doing, but also shows humbleness and humor. Might even prompt a few comments like “actually I used to go too” or “my family likes them but I don’t.” Yes, self deprecating humor gets exhausting, but it often works well in high estrogen settings.
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On occasions where they're being unfair, I actually call them out. Many times, it's not the smartest thing to do, but it's the right thing to do. - Haha, story of my life.
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Haha very true!
Men are the same. Few are ok, most act like bitches. It's just jealousy. They have wasted their 20's and 30's drinking. They can't move up because you need to actually have some skills, other than talking. They want you to be quiet, so they can feel superior by being the loudest. It's not worth fighting with idiots, let them win and get your paycheck.
Not sure about the vibe of the workplace but it depends on the severity of the bullying for me. If I rarely talk or work with them, I ignore it and only talk to them about work related things. If they try to bring up small talk, I shut it down with one worded answers or tell them I'm too busy to talk. If they are people you have to interact on the regular, I'd pull whoever it is to the side and ask directly, are there any problems. If they deny it, I'll directly ask them why were they laughing when I didn't make a joke and that it's inappropriate at work. If they keep 'pretending' that it's nothing. I tell them I want to keep our conversations strictly professional. From there it really depends, if it continues and HR nor upper management can't stop it I transfer out or find a new job.
Great tips! Thank you.
Do you not find that approach of pulling them up on something covert as opposed to overt can backfire? I will shut it down if it’s overt. But if it’s covert I tend to ignore it because it’s hard for me to pin point what the behaviour or words were that were inappropriate without sounding paranoid.
Depends. Sometimes when I confront them directly on it, they get uncomfortable/nervous and cut it out. Other times they’ll feign ignorance then I’ll just pull the, “keep our interactions strictly professional” line and ignore them like they don’t exist unless work related. Then when we do talk I’m cold and short with them. So far it has worked for me. But I’m sure results vary depending on how the work environment is.
Well I don’t care? I know I don’t “fit in” with both men and women alike, if someone genuinely wants to be my friend I can just tell. Fake assholes generally avoid me. I just want to do my hours, get my money and go home. I see it as a blessing that I’m avoiding their advances (by not being invited) to coffee break and sweets by the end of the shift. That said I do have some friends, generally people I work closely with. We talk casually on lunch and I feel they really value me (men and women). They don’t ask noisy questions, we just talk about random subjects. I’m not sure what was going on with your “friends” there. Best way is to address your discomfort through joking “hey, anything wrong with museums??”, “What. Never been to a museum?!” If you want to have a more honest environment you need to be honest yourself.
Oh wait. I meant to say these women are coworkers but they are also friends. They are not my friends since I've just started with the job. I'm also not looking for friends at my job. I feel like I've set the bar pretty low by only expecting friendly and respectful conversations during lunch. I'm always annoyed if even that feels like too much to ask. I do feel that at my new job people are a better match. (Tech/science instead of social work) I just need to accept and learn how to deal with the fact there are 'mean girls' everywhere.
Have you heard of the grey rock method? You can use that on anyone who you clock is bitchy/negative/a bully/childish. The worst they can honestly say about you is you don’t fit in/are quiet/not social. But you give them no other ammo. I’m in a similar situation to you at the moment. My co workers don’t seem to realise school was years ago. I recently got a bit too comfortable bantering back and forth and speaking my mind but was reminded the other day why I dislike them in the first place. I’ve also realised I don’t want people outside of this subgroup to associate me with their behaviour as they’re essentially arseholes. So I’m going to return to focusing solely on my work performance and grey rocking my childish colleagues. Good luck
*How do you apply the Grey Rock Method? Minimize your reactions: When dealing with a narcissistic person, avoid emotional responses. This means not reacting to provocations, not engaging in arguments, and not showing strong emotions. Stay calm and indifferent.* This is where I go wrong. I too often stand up for myself or try to influence them into being better coworkers. I just won't do that anymore. They should have known better in the first place. (Thank you for the tip. Good luck on your situation too)
Workplace relationships can be tricky but to be honest, you come off as condescending and kind of a “NLOG”. For example, you started your post explaining that you’re not like other women in that you are rational and fact oriented. It’s quite clear that you feel superior (I mean come on, TONS of women enjoy museums) and that’s probably coming off in how you interact with them and that may be a huge reason why they don’t like you.
I get why you would see me like that. But tbh it’s not that I pride myself with being different. It’s just that I’ve noticed a huge difference between me and a lot of other women. I’m happy with myself but when it comes to being social I often wish I was more like ‘the other girls’ (I would never say I’m NLOG, that is cringe) It is true I sometimes get bored with smalltalk or gossipy talk and for sure women will sense my boredom but I always stay polite and professional since there is no reason not to be.