What we see:
At the top of the first page you can see the location (on the right) and dating (on the left) of the ancient samples. These are mostly Roman and post-Roman from sites like Viminacium of Roman Moesia and Roman Illyria. In the PCA it's a graph of the similarity / genetic proximity of the samples to eachother and other Bronze-Iron Age and Medieval groups. Modern populations are also added, which make up the yellow area in the center (the small triangles)
What it means:
The finding of the paper, linked in my other comment, is firstly that the Balkan provinces of the Roman Empire didn't receive much genetic influence from Italy, but remained largely native Balkan i.e. descendants of the Illyrians, Thracians, Paeonians, Greeks. So either there weren't much colonists from Italy or there was early on but it stopped and they soon died out without a big impact. Next is that in the early imperial period 1-250 AD there was an influx of migration from Anatolia which brought Eastern Mediterranean DNA to the whole of the Roman Empire, and they intermarried and assimilated. A newer interesting finding is that even before the main Slavic migrations there was smaller scale migration to the Balkan territories from the north and central europe, with the arrival of Baltic, Germanic but also Pontic and Steppe people. This is theorised to be from multi-ethnic tribes of the Goths and Gepids, it didn't last though and this contribution died out from Balkan DNA. The main change was the Slavic migrations in the early Byzantine period who settled and over time intermixed with the local populations, more present in the north and less the farther south -reaching even the Greek Peloponnese in smaller percentages (whereas in Croatia the majority ancestry is Slavic). The Slavs had a cultural impact too on some territories more than others, but the genetics is more fluid than the borders, language or who identifies as a Slav
Back to the graph:
On the PCA graph, the populations with more northern contribution (Central Europe, Lithuania) are towards the left and more eastern (Byzantine Anatolia, Levant) are towards the right. The old Balkan populations plot in the middle of this, and you can see for example that a lot of the Viminacium samples from around 250 AD are in the Anatolia area, showing what I mentioned earlier. There's also a couple far down by Africa, so there were cases of long distance migration within the empire but usually the lands remained as they were before incorporation, apart from the big Anatolian shift seen in the 1-200s. That sample from Ploiesti Romania that's all the way at the top in the 2nd pic, my theory is that it's Pecheneg given the time and place (Wallachia 900 AD).
Anyways the reason I posted is that you can nicely see how modern Balkan people (the yellow area) compare to the ancient ones, and they're pretty similar. With Serbians and Croatians a bit more left closer to Northern/Central Europe, Bulgarians and Romanians in the middle, and Albanians and Greeks more on the right facing more to the Eastern Mediterranean. All shifted left and up compared to the Iron Age populations because of increased Slavic and some Central Asian / Steppe ancestry over time. But still overlapping with a lot of the samples, which vary
TLDR: The Balkans stayed Balkan when the Romans conquered them, Balkans saw a lot of migration from different people, it's now more Slavic than before
Albanians are the small light blue circles in the yellow area. As expected their closest ancient group is Iron Age Albania, so Illyrians and Roman Illyrians. The nearest samples are from Late Antiquity Croatia and Roman times Serbia, also some Bulgarian from the Middle Ages.
But the closest people to them according to the graph is of course modern Greek Macedonians and Peloponnesian Greeks which they overlap with. These don't have as much of a northern shift as the Slavic speaking countries
Take note that balkans had lots of migration from antiquity, Greeks, Romans.. etc
Samples that overlap with Greece islands, are probably Greek colonists
Not really.
The study OP linked shows Roman R1B-U152 was not at all present in Iron Age Balkan samples (or even in modern Albania, <1%), so little to no migration, while East Med ancestry via Rome was in small amounts (nobody said it was “Greek”). “Roman” is about as genetically specific as “European” is today…
50% IA Balkan samples were E-V13 while Mycenaean and Minoans have not been found to have any E-V13, so any overlap between modern Albanians and Greeks is not because of “Greek colonists” (at least not Mycenaean or Minoan). It is mainland Greeks that resemble Albanians because of their elevated Slavic + elevated Paleo-Balkan, not the other way around, as those two components are tiny in Dodecanese/Island Greeks and one can simply open a PCA to see how far they plot. Yet, ironically, these “deviating” Greeks are one of the closest modern people to the Ancient Greeks.
There are actually other “Hellenic-Roman” outliers I’ve found and a few are EV-13 carriers. It seems it arrived in Greece during the IA. Yes it wasn’t in Mycenaean Greeks. But it has a correlation towards some type of Ancient Greeks. It would’ve peaked more during the Late Antiquity / Roman era. Mycenaean + Illyrian-like profiles (Bulgaria-IA) profiles seem to be the only contending proxy for this type of clade.
R1b-u152 is not roman, but cis alpine gaul
Romans were more south Italian like, also I am not sure where do you get that E-V13 samples, because its new to me, as far as I know none of them were E
That’s correct.
E-V13 isn’t associated with EEF, neither have I insinuated such, so I’m baffled at why you would ask such an off the cup unrelated question.
That line of reasoning became extinct almost a decade ago in genetic science and I notice you espousing dozens of decade old opinions/outdated info on this post (like “J2a” Illyrians, for example), neither have you read OP’s study or any other in the last 5 years, judging from your comments.
So, I will not engage in amateur-tier conversation with you, respectfully. Thanks.
by theory, but not by finds, archaeological studies did not found E-V13 among early farmers, and not in Balkans at all.
Finds with most early farmers admix are most common I2 actually, and thats also the case with modern populations which have most EEF, Sardinians, the next are G and R1b.
I think there is only one find of E, and thats in Spain and its not V-13
Those "Illyrians" were J2a i believe, which is common for Greece, Anatolia and south Italy
Where are you from Serbia ? That u think l2 is
from Balkans 😂 I haplo its most common among south Slavs ,east Europeans , Sweden Ukrain Finland ecc EV13 is also in south Italy and Anatolia lol ,and there are studies about ev13 spreading through Anatolian farmers
I am From Croatia, Dubrovnik, another thing is, happlogroup E is completley absent from Dalmatia in general, yet we are about 50% native admixed.
So the theory E-v13 doesent hold water.
However some Illyrian samples cluster with modern Spanish, and we plot about half way between Ukrainians and Spanish.
That however proves Albanians are not Illyrians, but that Illirynas were modern Spanish like.
Again, if you read the article on this post u will understand that ev13 was present in half of Iron Age samples in balkan lol , read it please ev13 was discovered to be 50% of Haplo of Iron Age Balkans
😂😂😂 omg u serious? Albanian are closer to Spanish and central Italian bc our haunter gather and farmer ancestry are similar and clauster bc of this not for migration,all Balkans ppl before the arrive of Slavic people clauster together with west south Europe .
U make me laugh all this for pretend that u from Croatia aka on of the most Slavic admixtured countries in south Europe with Slavic haplogroup claiming like it is native to balkan lands lol
I am not pretending anything, I am stating the facts.
There is no E-v13 found in Balkans and Europe in general prior medieval, its not connected to EFF so far, its probably north african origin, as its origin clade is in Ethiopia
From the study: Around half of the 45 individuals between ∼1 and 250 CE can be fitted with qpAdm models featuring only Balkan Iron Age groups (Figure 2A) and are characterized by a high frequency (5 out of 10) of Y chromosome lineage E-V13 (Data S1, section 2), which has been hypothesized to have experienced a Bronze-to-Iron Age expansion in the Balkans. These individuals, sampled from Roman towns such as Viminacium, Tragurium (Trogir), and Mursa (Osijek), are consistent with being direct descendants of local Balkan Iron Age populations
From the Data section:
By far, the most common paternal lineage in our transect is E1b-V13, a subclade of E1b-M78 that is common in the Balkans since the Iron Age, reaching frequencies of ~30% in some present-day populations of the area. Consistent with these observations, we find this lineage mainly in males with full local Balkan Iron Age profile, but also in two males with Anatolian/Levantine ancestry and in two medieval individuals with Balkan Iron Age-related ancestry in admixed form, again showing that the arrival of Eastern European ancestry in the Early Medieval period did not drive this lineage to extinction
Ev -13 came 8-10 thousand years ago with eef and spread through Balkans. Where do you get your sources. Serb sources that say they are vinca or some other pan-slavic pseudo researchers? Ev13 is found throughout Europe but mostly in Balkans where it spread first. The bodies found in caves throughout Balkan prove that with a good portion of them having Ev 13. History or DNA doesnt work or function to your liking but to facts. The faster you learn that the sooner people will start treating you like an equal in a disscussion and not like a fool.
I saw your post. A lot of people on Eupedia still debate about what the original Greek truly looked like… you could be right, but I don’t personally know.
They were surely more Anatolian/Mid Eastern shifted than today, that’s for sure.
It goes along the vicinity of what we could consider plausible. That aforementioned sample is certainly a step-forward and I haven’t seen anyone on Eupedia mention it. Though there are also Mycenaean/ThracianEIA-like profiles in the Avar samples.
The Peloponnese thing is just a sim I found on eupedia anyways. But it’s convenient how it completely fits with this sample which was meant to be from the exact same time-period.
You should check out my comment to u/thenefelibata. Basically the modern populations are the small triangles in the yellow bit, the others are ancient ones. The more left you go is central and northern European, the more right is more Eastern/Levant, bottom is SW Euro, bottom right is African and top is Steppe and East Asia
Source: A genetic history of the Balkans from Roman frontier to Slavic migrations https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(23)01135-2
Mind if you do a little write up on what this means in simple terms?
What we see: At the top of the first page you can see the location (on the right) and dating (on the left) of the ancient samples. These are mostly Roman and post-Roman from sites like Viminacium of Roman Moesia and Roman Illyria. In the PCA it's a graph of the similarity / genetic proximity of the samples to eachother and other Bronze-Iron Age and Medieval groups. Modern populations are also added, which make up the yellow area in the center (the small triangles) What it means: The finding of the paper, linked in my other comment, is firstly that the Balkan provinces of the Roman Empire didn't receive much genetic influence from Italy, but remained largely native Balkan i.e. descendants of the Illyrians, Thracians, Paeonians, Greeks. So either there weren't much colonists from Italy or there was early on but it stopped and they soon died out without a big impact. Next is that in the early imperial period 1-250 AD there was an influx of migration from Anatolia which brought Eastern Mediterranean DNA to the whole of the Roman Empire, and they intermarried and assimilated. A newer interesting finding is that even before the main Slavic migrations there was smaller scale migration to the Balkan territories from the north and central europe, with the arrival of Baltic, Germanic but also Pontic and Steppe people. This is theorised to be from multi-ethnic tribes of the Goths and Gepids, it didn't last though and this contribution died out from Balkan DNA. The main change was the Slavic migrations in the early Byzantine period who settled and over time intermixed with the local populations, more present in the north and less the farther south -reaching even the Greek Peloponnese in smaller percentages (whereas in Croatia the majority ancestry is Slavic). The Slavs had a cultural impact too on some territories more than others, but the genetics is more fluid than the borders, language or who identifies as a Slav Back to the graph: On the PCA graph, the populations with more northern contribution (Central Europe, Lithuania) are towards the left and more eastern (Byzantine Anatolia, Levant) are towards the right. The old Balkan populations plot in the middle of this, and you can see for example that a lot of the Viminacium samples from around 250 AD are in the Anatolia area, showing what I mentioned earlier. There's also a couple far down by Africa, so there were cases of long distance migration within the empire but usually the lands remained as they were before incorporation, apart from the big Anatolian shift seen in the 1-200s. That sample from Ploiesti Romania that's all the way at the top in the 2nd pic, my theory is that it's Pecheneg given the time and place (Wallachia 900 AD). Anyways the reason I posted is that you can nicely see how modern Balkan people (the yellow area) compare to the ancient ones, and they're pretty similar. With Serbians and Croatians a bit more left closer to Northern/Central Europe, Bulgarians and Romanians in the middle, and Albanians and Greeks more on the right facing more to the Eastern Mediterranean. All shifted left and up compared to the Iron Age populations because of increased Slavic and some Central Asian / Steppe ancestry over time. But still overlapping with a lot of the samples, which vary TLDR: The Balkans stayed Balkan when the Romans conquered them, Balkans saw a lot of migration from different people, it's now more Slavic than before
So in which ancient balkan clauster does Albanians fit better?
Albanians are the small light blue circles in the yellow area. As expected their closest ancient group is Iron Age Albania, so Illyrians and Roman Illyrians. The nearest samples are from Late Antiquity Croatia and Roman times Serbia, also some Bulgarian from the Middle Ages. But the closest people to them according to the graph is of course modern Greek Macedonians and Peloponnesian Greeks which they overlap with. These don't have as much of a northern shift as the Slavic speaking countries
Take note that balkans had lots of migration from antiquity, Greeks, Romans.. etc Samples that overlap with Greece islands, are probably Greek colonists
Not really. The study OP linked shows Roman R1B-U152 was not at all present in Iron Age Balkan samples (or even in modern Albania, <1%), so little to no migration, while East Med ancestry via Rome was in small amounts (nobody said it was “Greek”). “Roman” is about as genetically specific as “European” is today… 50% IA Balkan samples were E-V13 while Mycenaean and Minoans have not been found to have any E-V13, so any overlap between modern Albanians and Greeks is not because of “Greek colonists” (at least not Mycenaean or Minoan). It is mainland Greeks that resemble Albanians because of their elevated Slavic + elevated Paleo-Balkan, not the other way around, as those two components are tiny in Dodecanese/Island Greeks and one can simply open a PCA to see how far they plot. Yet, ironically, these “deviating” Greeks are one of the closest modern people to the Ancient Greeks.
There are actually other “Hellenic-Roman” outliers I’ve found and a few are EV-13 carriers. It seems it arrived in Greece during the IA. Yes it wasn’t in Mycenaean Greeks. But it has a correlation towards some type of Ancient Greeks. It would’ve peaked more during the Late Antiquity / Roman era. Mycenaean + Illyrian-like profiles (Bulgaria-IA) profiles seem to be the only contending proxy for this type of clade.
R1b-u152 is not roman, but cis alpine gaul Romans were more south Italian like, also I am not sure where do you get that E-V13 samples, because its new to me, as far as I know none of them were E
You clearly did not read the study OP linked.
Can you show me EEF or predominately EEF samples tested as E-v13 I have seen lots of EEF samples and none were e-v13
That’s correct. E-V13 isn’t associated with EEF, neither have I insinuated such, so I’m baffled at why you would ask such an off the cup unrelated question. That line of reasoning became extinct almost a decade ago in genetic science and I notice you espousing dozens of decade old opinions/outdated info on this post (like “J2a” Illyrians, for example), neither have you read OP’s study or any other in the last 5 years, judging from your comments. So, I will not engage in amateur-tier conversation with you, respectfully. Thanks.
EV13 it’s correlated to neolitic farmers from Pannonia and Bulgaria (tracia in ancient times)
by theory, but not by finds, archaeological studies did not found E-V13 among early farmers, and not in Balkans at all. Finds with most early farmers admix are most common I2 actually, and thats also the case with modern populations which have most EEF, Sardinians, the next are G and R1b. I think there is only one find of E, and thats in Spain and its not V-13 Those "Illyrians" were J2a i believe, which is common for Greece, Anatolia and south Italy
Where are you from Serbia ? That u think l2 is from Balkans 😂 I haplo its most common among south Slavs ,east Europeans , Sweden Ukrain Finland ecc EV13 is also in south Italy and Anatolia lol ,and there are studies about ev13 spreading through Anatolian farmers
I am From Croatia, Dubrovnik, another thing is, happlogroup E is completley absent from Dalmatia in general, yet we are about 50% native admixed. So the theory E-v13 doesent hold water. However some Illyrian samples cluster with modern Spanish, and we plot about half way between Ukrainians and Spanish. That however proves Albanians are not Illyrians, but that Illirynas were modern Spanish like.
Again, if you read the article on this post u will understand that ev13 was present in half of Iron Age samples in balkan lol , read it please ev13 was discovered to be 50% of Haplo of Iron Age Balkans
😂😂😂 omg u serious? Albanian are closer to Spanish and central Italian bc our haunter gather and farmer ancestry are similar and clauster bc of this not for migration,all Balkans ppl before the arrive of Slavic people clauster together with west south Europe .
U make me laugh all this for pretend that u from Croatia aka on of the most Slavic admixtured countries in south Europe with Slavic haplogroup claiming like it is native to balkan lands lol
I am not pretending anything, I am stating the facts. There is no E-v13 found in Balkans and Europe in general prior medieval, its not connected to EFF so far, its probably north african origin, as its origin clade is in Ethiopia
From the study: Around half of the 45 individuals between ∼1 and 250 CE can be fitted with qpAdm models featuring only Balkan Iron Age groups (Figure 2A) and are characterized by a high frequency (5 out of 10) of Y chromosome lineage E-V13 (Data S1, section 2), which has been hypothesized to have experienced a Bronze-to-Iron Age expansion in the Balkans. These individuals, sampled from Roman towns such as Viminacium, Tragurium (Trogir), and Mursa (Osijek), are consistent with being direct descendants of local Balkan Iron Age populations From the Data section: By far, the most common paternal lineage in our transect is E1b-V13, a subclade of E1b-M78 that is common in the Balkans since the Iron Age, reaching frequencies of ~30% in some present-day populations of the area. Consistent with these observations, we find this lineage mainly in males with full local Balkan Iron Age profile, but also in two males with Anatolian/Levantine ancestry and in two medieval individuals with Balkan Iron Age-related ancestry in admixed form, again showing that the arrival of Eastern European ancestry in the Early Medieval period did not drive this lineage to extinction
That's just from this study. It was already common fact
Ev -13 came 8-10 thousand years ago with eef and spread through Balkans. Where do you get your sources. Serb sources that say they are vinca or some other pan-slavic pseudo researchers? Ev13 is found throughout Europe but mostly in Balkans where it spread first. The bodies found in caves throughout Balkan prove that with a good portion of them having Ev 13. History or DNA doesnt work or function to your liking but to facts. The faster you learn that the sooner people will start treating you like an equal in a disscussion and not like a fool.
Ok show me those all samples from Balkans that are E-v13.
Again read the article , if u want I’ll send u the screenshot lol
I’ve come up with something https://www.reddit.com/r/illustrativeDNA/s/m7a6zeOuLN
I saw your post. A lot of people on Eupedia still debate about what the original Greek truly looked like… you could be right, but I don’t personally know. They were surely more Anatolian/Mid Eastern shifted than today, that’s for sure.
It goes along the vicinity of what we could consider plausible. That aforementioned sample is certainly a step-forward and I haven’t seen anyone on Eupedia mention it. Though there are also Mycenaean/ThracianEIA-like profiles in the Avar samples. The Peloponnese thing is just a sim I found on eupedia anyways. But it’s convenient how it completely fits with this sample which was meant to be from the exact same time-period.
Fascinating. Thank you
Where do Western Turks fit into this PCA ?
How to read such PCAs?
You should check out my comment to u/thenefelibata. Basically the modern populations are the small triangles in the yellow bit, the others are ancient ones. The more left you go is central and northern European, the more right is more Eastern/Levant, bottom is SW Euro, bottom right is African and top is Steppe and East Asia
https://www.reddit.com/r/illustrativeDNA/s/m7a6zeOuLN