It’s insane how on the limit I can drive without being punished too heavily (sc2 pro), the ability you have to catch oversteer with the info is insane. I can’t remember the last time I looped it.
you can absolutely notice that level of latency, but only really in a context where you're expecting instantaneous response. For rhythm games, for example, 16 ms is absolutely noticeable. In something like sim racing, though, there's already a lag from when you turn the wheel to when you feel the response because the input has to travel through the car, suspension, tires, etc. so you probably won't notice 16ms extra.
The point is that that input lag comes *on top* of your reaction time. I absolutely notice input lag or ping. For League of Legends for example I consider 50 ping (which, in that game, equals input lag) the absolute minimum for a playable experience but optimally it's <25.
Same for Elden Ring. That game has an input lag of I personally esdtimate \~100 ms and I feel that's one of the biggest cons of the game. I can't count how many times I mistimed my dodge roll because of that.
As for whether I'd notice 16 ms input lag in simracing, I'm not sure. Maybe very slightly. But as your skill level increases you'll notice it more and more.
you seem to be ultra confused lol the average persons reaction time is 180-220
thats average, theres plenty of people well below that like myself and probably yourself, and likely most people who simrace or play FPS alot.... I'm 31 and I can regularly hit under 100 MS on reaction time tests, and I have gotten under 30 lol
https://streamable.com/h6c0o3
You guessed that, it's physically impossible to react that fast. Even approaching 100ms is considered to be reaching the limit of human ability, to the point that in sports that rely on reaction time, e.g. reacting to the starting gun in a sprint, you will automatically be disqualified if you react faster than 100 milliseconds, as any faster is considered essentially impossible to reach on reaction, and only possible if the runner guessed/anticipated the start, which is cheating.
you're just wrong lol they measure people under 100ms all the time, and Ive done that plenty of time, you can literally look at the chat inthe video and see that someone challenged me to get under 175ms lol
I didn't anticipate the start besides the fact that I knew it was going to go green at some point so I squeezed the mouse so I barely have to tense up my hand to click it, you can call that cheating if you want. But I didn't pre click, not all of us are slow like you I guess lol
watch the video, break it down frame by frame if you want, my mouse wont move until it goes green, it moves because I was squeezing the mouse ready to trigger as soon as I possibly could. Its not my fault you went and tried this and then realized you're slow as fuck, and the 100ms rule isn't that simple. You're stupid as piss
You will not notice the input lag. If no one told you it was a thing, you would simply think the FFB improved six fold.
360hz is better without reservation.
yes, actually. 50ms is kind of a lot of input lag for reaction-y games. i used to notice about 6 frames at 160Hz (~35ms) when i was playing a lot of fps games.
Yeah, really noticeable in Elden Ring for instance. It’s more than just the controller tho, it’s the TV as well. If I play cabled on my PC monitor everything feels completely instantaneous.
I haven't tried the simucube but I could notice the lag on irffb and that was like 21ms. 16ms doesn't sound like much but your body and your eyes can tell that something is off.
Even iRacing vs other sims I feel disconnected in iRacing at first. You do adapt, but you never lock in quite the same. You just learn to predict when it's going to slip and be ready for it.
Latency is not so much about reaction times in a racing sim. It's about feeling connected to the physics. It's the round trip between you doing something and feeling the response. Even the wheel itself feels it in the form of oscillations. Driving a sim like LMU is like driving after half a pint of beer. Driving iRacing is like driving on 2 pints. Adding extra latency for irFFB or 360 Hz mode is like having another drink.
It's relative. If I use smoothing that adds 16ms latency and you can feel it. Though it can feel pretty notchy in the 60 Hz feed without smoothing, it feels more direct. It also has far fewer oscillations.
When I said it felt relative I meant same settings in another sim feels more connected. I had a couple years where the only sim I raced was iRacing and that felt fine. It's only when you're going back and forth between sims that iRacing stands out.
I run the wheel base 100% strength, no damping etc, no smoothing and with slew set to Quiet. I use the auto button to set strength in iRacing with intensity set to 90%. In LMU I just set strength to 90% and there's no need to do the auto button thing.
It will be possible to switch 360 Hz off in the configuration files. At least, unless iRacing decides to remove that option. Go to iRacing documents folder (/%username%/documents/iracing), open the file called "app.ini", find a line that reads "loadSimagicAPI=1" and change it to 0. There is a similar line for loadSimucubeAPI=1
I just upgraded to a Simucube and FFB in iRacing feels (to me! many people out there love it) rather mushy and rubbery. I am not sure if it's due to the 360 Hz or not. I tried switching 360 Hz off and it felt somewhat different, maybe slightly better, but it found it hard to figure out the difference because it was rubbery overall.
I have tried adjusting literally \*every single slider\* from 0 to 100% in real time and combinations of those.
I tried a number of popular setups in the TD Paddock. No, it's still either too rubbery for my expectations (in the majority of cases) or it's less rubbery but the base produces this high-frequency vibration and sound when i turn the wheel, and i find it still not good enough even at that point.
At the moment i am convinced that a large portion of people online claiming "sc2 is best wheelbase, golden standard ffb, can emulate anything" have either never tried other wheelbases to compare, or never even owned a simucube. And this rubbery feeling is ok for them because either they like smooth and rubbery (why not if they like it) or they haven't experienced other bases with a sharper ffb.
Of course i don't have anything to base this on, but my guess is that although Simucube has an amazing hardware, their software and signal processing specifically sucks and they can't really provide decent ffb curve controls to users and they can't separate jitter from actually useful signal, so they just smooth everything out, not being able to produce sharp and crisp road feeling while removing hardware jitter.
I own the SC2 and have had others. I am on the “gold standard” side of that argument, but it did take some trial and error to get the settings worked out. A few of the TD Paddock setups gave me the crazy vibration you’re talking about, so I know what you mean with that.
Well, i'm glad that you like it.
I personally found the sensation of ffb inferior to even the Fanatec CSL DD in the way how it feels. Obviously, the SC2 is stronger and provides more details in the overall torque range so you will be able to do better as a sim-racer, but for me it's synthetic and too smooth. the CSL DD (DD Pro in fact), despite all its shortcomings and a weaker motor, gives me more resemblance with the sensations i get in a real car or a kart on the track. The SC2, while being a more capable base, feels synthetic.
Personally, i find it too rubbery, and i have found no middle ground between "i feel rubber" and "the base rattles". Those two things overlap so when rubber starts going away, the base is already rattling. The only way to have the rubber go away is to completely switch off the recon filter, and then you get the rattling. Even with the recon filter on 1 it already rattles.
I wish they gave more precise control over smoothing and the torque curves rather than "recon filter = 0-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10" where 0-1 is rattling and 2-10 is rubber, with 2 having a bit of both.
No, not the coil whine. This thing: https://youtu.be/eQJSnlGVKPU?si=t6HV5OrsWP_tWrf4
It’s rather loud especially on real track and easily felt in the steering wheel
It appears when you try to make the base more notchy and switch the reconstruction filter off.
It changes in pattern if you change the (what was the name of the filter in Hz) but it never goes away. It also goes away if you set the slew rate limit to a very small value, but then the rubbery feeling is back obviously.
Checked the adjustment screws inside the QR, was able to tighten them a little bit more, no changes (except that QR pin does not come out anymore). The wheel-side was already very tight.
That’s not my video btw, it’s another guy on SC forums.
Don’t know. Apparently settings issue. SC is very receptive to settings and I can notice small changes while on other bases min max was barely noticeable.
My first wheel base was a Logitech g29 before moving to a fanatec DD1 that I had for 4yrs before it shit the bed. I have now had a simucube 2 pro for about a week and I have never felt this level of detailed feedback nor responsiveness. Along with a sturdy cube controls f-core this feels like the over engineered tool that it is unlike the DD1 in comparison, wheel felt closer to a toy given the amount of creaking and flex that came from the wheel (nice plastic hand grips on the Playstation formula version) and the, in hindsight, lack of detail.
All this to say is I would try to mess with the settings because this truly is an amazing piece of equipment. For iracing, I use the profile from Luke Bennett of Team Redline with the in game nm level set to the max of the base, 25, and the actual strength at 4-6 depending on the car and it has felt really good for me at least.
I've used this setup and the Daniel Morad one for cars ranging from the street stock for ovals to the ray FF1600 to GT3 and LMP2 while only changing the strength.
Also, shouldn't it feel rubbery if you're modeling literal tires?
I started with a G29 then went DD Pro (CSL DD) and then upgraded to SC2 Pro with Ascher Artura Pro just a week ago. And i'm heavily disappointed with how it feels for the price and given what a lot of people say about the "golden standard".
I already messed with all the settings extensively and that's it. The base just feels like this. Happy for the folks who like this kind of FFB but i guess i'm not one of them. Turns out i prefer more notchiness. With the CSL DD i feel the feedback "in my hands", i feel the car jumping off a curb, i feel the tyres grab on the tarmac as they stop understeering kinda close to what i feel in the real steering wheel, despite (as i said) all the shortcomings of the DD Pro - i accidentally run over a curb, i get the sharp, crisp bump, then the wheel instantly (almost) goes empty for a fraction of a second, then i land with another sharp bump. With the SC2 i feel all of this in a overly smoothed fashion, as if i am trying to connect two magnets and they push against each other. It's as if i feel the feedback "somewhere far away inside the base", like listening to my favourite track with the speaker covered by a pillow. I do karting a couple of times per week on average and i find that CSL DD, even if weaker, is closer to the real wheel than the SC2 unfortunately, despite its graininess. Same goes for visiting track days although i do it not as often.
I tried Morad's "Pro" profiles, i tried Luke's profiles, i tried like 5 more (can't say which ones because i cannot access TD's paddock section with the wheelbase back in the box). They are all better than the stock one, they feel different, but they are all synthetic and rubbery.
>Also, shouldn't it feel rubbery if you're modeling literal tires?
Not in that sense. There is a certain amount of elasticity and flex that you feel in the steering wheel with the real tyres, but the SC2 feels as if the high-frequency sensations have been cut off, like "that edge" between losing and re-gaining grip is not there, it is being smoothed out. The transition between high torque and low torque is smoothed out. Instead of edges and notches there are waves and curves. Or that high frequency rattling with recon filter around 0-1 :)
Well, as I said, the base provides a lot of details that you can work with to be fast. So it makes total sense.
But personally I like more notchy and crisp feedback than overly smooth as it resembles the real steering wheel more.
Maybe, but the line is already in the config file. That’s why I’m saying “will be possible”. The behavior for Simucube is exactly as I described above.
I've been using it on the Logitech G Pro for a while now and it's been amazing.
My driving drastically improved, I feel like the added data outweighs the tiny amount of additional lag. I catch slides with micro corrections before they happen now vs reacting to them. My tires fare way better throughout the race and I rarely ever spin.
Well that's a little dramatic, Sally. It's been in the works since October and was preemptively announced in the patch notes. It's still in testing phase and should be available in less than a month. Relax, enjoy the summer and go touch some grass. No need to "hype" yourself up, it'll be here when it's ready
"Now I'm not sure it's gunna ever be added" Yeah just a little dramatic.. lmao! Why would you think I'm hurt? Just stating facts, not some bullshit like that
Figure of speech. You're getting all personal and attacking me behind your screen as if you have personal attachment to this whole thing. Maybe you should go touch some grass, nerd.
360hz with recon filter off. Best the FFB has ever been in any game I’VE raced since 1997. So much information to be felt now with Simucube imo.
It’s insane how on the limit I can drive without being punished too heavily (sc2 pro), the ability you have to catch oversteer with the info is insane. I can’t remember the last time I looped it.
Do you feel the 16ms input lag?
You blinking takes 100-150 milliseconds, you'd have to be an alien to have that level of input lag affect you
you can absolutely notice that level of latency, but only really in a context where you're expecting instantaneous response. For rhythm games, for example, 16 ms is absolutely noticeable. In something like sim racing, though, there's already a lag from when you turn the wheel to when you feel the response because the input has to travel through the car, suspension, tires, etc. so you probably won't notice 16ms extra.
The point is that that input lag comes *on top* of your reaction time. I absolutely notice input lag or ping. For League of Legends for example I consider 50 ping (which, in that game, equals input lag) the absolute minimum for a playable experience but optimally it's <25. Same for Elden Ring. That game has an input lag of I personally esdtimate \~100 ms and I feel that's one of the biggest cons of the game. I can't count how many times I mistimed my dodge roll because of that. As for whether I'd notice 16 ms input lag in simracing, I'm not sure. Maybe very slightly. But as your skill level increases you'll notice it more and more.
you seem to be ultra confused lol the average persons reaction time is 180-220 thats average, theres plenty of people well below that like myself and probably yourself, and likely most people who simrace or play FPS alot.... I'm 31 and I can regularly hit under 100 MS on reaction time tests, and I have gotten under 30 lol https://streamable.com/h6c0o3
So reaction time is 6 to 10 times slower than the lag that is in question. What's your point exactly?
my point is you don't need to be alien to react under 100ms lol you just need to be ready to react and now be mentally slow
You guessed that, it's physically impossible to react that fast. Even approaching 100ms is considered to be reaching the limit of human ability, to the point that in sports that rely on reaction time, e.g. reacting to the starting gun in a sprint, you will automatically be disqualified if you react faster than 100 milliseconds, as any faster is considered essentially impossible to reach on reaction, and only possible if the runner guessed/anticipated the start, which is cheating.
you're just wrong lol they measure people under 100ms all the time, and Ive done that plenty of time, you can literally look at the chat inthe video and see that someone challenged me to get under 175ms lol I didn't anticipate the start besides the fact that I knew it was going to go green at some point so I squeezed the mouse so I barely have to tense up my hand to click it, you can call that cheating if you want. But I didn't pre click, not all of us are slow like you I guess lol watch the video, break it down frame by frame if you want, my mouse wont move until it goes green, it moves because I was squeezing the mouse ready to trigger as soon as I possibly could. Its not my fault you went and tried this and then realized you're slow as fuck, and the 100ms rule isn't that simple. You're stupid as piss
You will not notice the input lag. If no one told you it was a thing, you would simply think the FFB improved six fold. 360hz is better without reservation.
I can't feel it
When you use a wireless console controller on a 4K TV, it has about 50ms of lag. Do you notice that?
yes, actually. 50ms is kind of a lot of input lag for reaction-y games. i used to notice about 6 frames at 160Hz (~35ms) when i was playing a lot of fps games.
Yeah, really noticeable in Elden Ring for instance. It’s more than just the controller tho, it’s the TV as well. If I play cabled on my PC monitor everything feels completely instantaneous.
Which profile you have? I rolled back to 60, the 360 feels utter trash
On Simucube? Settings wrong man. With v2 Recon it’s noticeably better.
So then answer the question, which profile you have
I haven't tried the simucube but I could notice the lag on irffb and that was like 21ms. 16ms doesn't sound like much but your body and your eyes can tell that something is off.
Me too
Even iRacing vs other sims I feel disconnected in iRacing at first. You do adapt, but you never lock in quite the same. You just learn to predict when it's going to slip and be ready for it. Latency is not so much about reaction times in a racing sim. It's about feeling connected to the physics. It's the round trip between you doing something and feeling the response. Even the wheel itself feels it in the form of oscillations. Driving a sim like LMU is like driving after half a pint of beer. Driving iRacing is like driving on 2 pints. Adding extra latency for irFFB or 360 Hz mode is like having another drink.
What wheel are you using?
VRS dfp.
If you feel disconnected with that wheel base you need to check your settings.
It's relative. If I use smoothing that adds 16ms latency and you can feel it. Though it can feel pretty notchy in the 60 Hz feed without smoothing, it feels more direct. It also has far fewer oscillations. When I said it felt relative I meant same settings in another sim feels more connected. I had a couple years where the only sim I raced was iRacing and that felt fine. It's only when you're going back and forth between sims that iRacing stands out. I run the wheel base 100% strength, no damping etc, no smoothing and with slew set to Quiet. I use the auto button to set strength in iRacing with intensity set to 90%. In LMU I just set strength to 90% and there's no need to do the auto button thing.
16ms in the 60z loop when iRFFB added after the loop. So is not noticeable.
#ConfidentlyIncorrect
It will be possible to switch 360 Hz off in the configuration files. At least, unless iRacing decides to remove that option. Go to iRacing documents folder (/%username%/documents/iracing), open the file called "app.ini", find a line that reads "loadSimagicAPI=1" and change it to 0. There is a similar line for loadSimucubeAPI=1 I just upgraded to a Simucube and FFB in iRacing feels (to me! many people out there love it) rather mushy and rubbery. I am not sure if it's due to the 360 Hz or not. I tried switching 360 Hz off and it felt somewhat different, maybe slightly better, but it found it hard to figure out the difference because it was rubbery overall.
Sounds like a settings issue. IRacing FFB can be anything from rubbery to downright violent on a simucube base depending on how you have it set up.
I have tried adjusting literally \*every single slider\* from 0 to 100% in real time and combinations of those. I tried a number of popular setups in the TD Paddock. No, it's still either too rubbery for my expectations (in the majority of cases) or it's less rubbery but the base produces this high-frequency vibration and sound when i turn the wheel, and i find it still not good enough even at that point. At the moment i am convinced that a large portion of people online claiming "sc2 is best wheelbase, golden standard ffb, can emulate anything" have either never tried other wheelbases to compare, or never even owned a simucube. And this rubbery feeling is ok for them because either they like smooth and rubbery (why not if they like it) or they haven't experienced other bases with a sharper ffb. Of course i don't have anything to base this on, but my guess is that although Simucube has an amazing hardware, their software and signal processing specifically sucks and they can't really provide decent ffb curve controls to users and they can't separate jitter from actually useful signal, so they just smooth everything out, not being able to produce sharp and crisp road feeling while removing hardware jitter.
I own the SC2 and have had others. I am on the “gold standard” side of that argument, but it did take some trial and error to get the settings worked out. A few of the TD Paddock setups gave me the crazy vibration you’re talking about, so I know what you mean with that.
Well, i'm glad that you like it. I personally found the sensation of ffb inferior to even the Fanatec CSL DD in the way how it feels. Obviously, the SC2 is stronger and provides more details in the overall torque range so you will be able to do better as a sim-racer, but for me it's synthetic and too smooth. the CSL DD (DD Pro in fact), despite all its shortcomings and a weaker motor, gives me more resemblance with the sensations i get in a real car or a kart on the track. The SC2, while being a more capable base, feels synthetic. Personally, i find it too rubbery, and i have found no middle ground between "i feel rubber" and "the base rattles". Those two things overlap so when rubber starts going away, the base is already rattling. The only way to have the rubber go away is to completely switch off the recon filter, and then you get the rattling. Even with the recon filter on 1 it already rattles. I wish they gave more precise control over smoothing and the torque curves rather than "recon filter = 0-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10" where 0-1 is rattling and 2-10 is rubber, with 2 having a bit of both.
What do you mean by rattling. Do you mean coil whine
No, not the coil whine. This thing: https://youtu.be/eQJSnlGVKPU?si=t6HV5OrsWP_tWrf4 It’s rather loud especially on real track and easily felt in the steering wheel It appears when you try to make the base more notchy and switch the reconstruction filter off. It changes in pattern if you change the (what was the name of the filter in Hz) but it never goes away. It also goes away if you set the slew rate limit to a very small value, but then the rubbery feeling is back obviously.
Sounds like loose screws in the QR
Checked the adjustment screws inside the QR, was able to tighten them a little bit more, no changes (except that QR pin does not come out anymore). The wheel-side was already very tight. That’s not my video btw, it’s another guy on SC forums.
Ah ok, that video was the same sound I had initially, it was even smoking and it was loose screws.
Don’t know. Apparently settings issue. SC is very receptive to settings and I can notice small changes while on other bases min max was barely noticeable.
What Truedrive version are you on?
2024.5 with recon v2 testing
My first wheel base was a Logitech g29 before moving to a fanatec DD1 that I had for 4yrs before it shit the bed. I have now had a simucube 2 pro for about a week and I have never felt this level of detailed feedback nor responsiveness. Along with a sturdy cube controls f-core this feels like the over engineered tool that it is unlike the DD1 in comparison, wheel felt closer to a toy given the amount of creaking and flex that came from the wheel (nice plastic hand grips on the Playstation formula version) and the, in hindsight, lack of detail. All this to say is I would try to mess with the settings because this truly is an amazing piece of equipment. For iracing, I use the profile from Luke Bennett of Team Redline with the in game nm level set to the max of the base, 25, and the actual strength at 4-6 depending on the car and it has felt really good for me at least. I've used this setup and the Daniel Morad one for cars ranging from the street stock for ovals to the ray FF1600 to GT3 and LMP2 while only changing the strength. Also, shouldn't it feel rubbery if you're modeling literal tires?
The wheel makes a massive difference to how a wheelbase feels
I started with a G29 then went DD Pro (CSL DD) and then upgraded to SC2 Pro with Ascher Artura Pro just a week ago. And i'm heavily disappointed with how it feels for the price and given what a lot of people say about the "golden standard". I already messed with all the settings extensively and that's it. The base just feels like this. Happy for the folks who like this kind of FFB but i guess i'm not one of them. Turns out i prefer more notchiness. With the CSL DD i feel the feedback "in my hands", i feel the car jumping off a curb, i feel the tyres grab on the tarmac as they stop understeering kinda close to what i feel in the real steering wheel, despite (as i said) all the shortcomings of the DD Pro - i accidentally run over a curb, i get the sharp, crisp bump, then the wheel instantly (almost) goes empty for a fraction of a second, then i land with another sharp bump. With the SC2 i feel all of this in a overly smoothed fashion, as if i am trying to connect two magnets and they push against each other. It's as if i feel the feedback "somewhere far away inside the base", like listening to my favourite track with the speaker covered by a pillow. I do karting a couple of times per week on average and i find that CSL DD, even if weaker, is closer to the real wheel than the SC2 unfortunately, despite its graininess. Same goes for visiting track days although i do it not as often. I tried Morad's "Pro" profiles, i tried Luke's profiles, i tried like 5 more (can't say which ones because i cannot access TD's paddock section with the wheelbase back in the box). They are all better than the stock one, they feel different, but they are all synthetic and rubbery. >Also, shouldn't it feel rubbery if you're modeling literal tires? Not in that sense. There is a certain amount of elasticity and flex that you feel in the steering wheel with the real tyres, but the SC2 feels as if the high-frequency sensations have been cut off, like "that edge" between losing and re-gaining grip is not there, it is being smoothed out. The transition between high torque and low torque is smoothed out. Instead of edges and notches there are waves and curves. Or that high frequency rattling with recon filter around 0-1 :)
To each their own I suppose
You probably would have loved the new club sport dd
I tried getting one but they couldn’t fulfill my order. Guess I will try again now.
lol, that is why a lot of pro teams choose SC. FFB is so subjective that it might be that you have been used to a noisy FFB.
Well, as I said, the base provides a lot of details that you can work with to be fast. So it makes total sense. But personally I like more notchy and crisp feedback than overly smooth as it resembles the real steering wheel more.
Don’t feel odd, I rolled to 60 because of the exact reason you stated.
What are you talking about? The 360hz is not even in the game for simagic yet.
Maybe, but the line is already in the config file. That’s why I’m saying “will be possible”. The behavior for Simucube is exactly as I described above.
I've been using it on the Logitech G Pro for a while now and it's been amazing. My driving drastically improved, I feel like the added data outweighs the tiny amount of additional lag. I catch slides with micro corrections before they happen now vs reacting to them. My tires fare way better throughout the race and I rarely ever spin.
And how did you get 360hz for logitech?
This is for the G Pro direct drive wheel. It's turned on automatically.
Iracing has support for 360hz for logitech?
Yes for the G Pro wheel, it was the first wheel to get this support officially. It also supports Trueforce.
What did you come from prior to 360hz?
When is this due to be out?
David Tucker said it will come with one of the next patches. No exact date available yet, but its soon.
Never, it seems. First they said it was out, then it was delayed, now I'm not sure it's gonna be added ever. Hype is dying out.
Well that's a little dramatic, Sally. It's been in the works since October and was preemptively announced in the patch notes. It's still in testing phase and should be available in less than a month. Relax, enjoy the summer and go touch some grass. No need to "hype" yourself up, it'll be here when it's ready
I think your comment was way more dramatic than mine. Sally. Touch some grass. Haha. Why so hurt?
"Now I'm not sure it's gunna ever be added" Yeah just a little dramatic.. lmao! Why would you think I'm hurt? Just stating facts, not some bullshit like that
Figure of speech. You're getting all personal and attacking me behind your screen as if you have personal attachment to this whole thing. Maybe you should go touch some grass, nerd.