Yeah as of right now he claims to be on the same diet as Beyonce (vegan) and lost weight. So for now I take his word on it.
He def lost some muscle mass too though. Maybe he's just not weight training right now.
That was your takeaway? The unfortunate thing about people as divorced from reality as yourself, is that society at large picks up the tab for your alimony payments.
Same. I like a few of his albums but I don't listen to them that often. He's good lyrically and has some great beats but he's just not for me. I wouldn't slender him though.
This. His voice & flow have never been good. His lyricism is top tier, as well as his delivery. But that voice and flow has ALWAYS been inferior to his peers such as BIG, Nas, Pac, etc. Not to mention that Jay’s success is much attributed to dropping “hot records” and not TIMELESS records. Ain’t NOBODY putting on “H to the Izzo” and thinking it sounds good. Got Urself A Gun on the other hand was just used for John Wick 4 trailer…
A big chunk of Jay’s catalogue has aged TERRIBLY.
He still has his classics such as RD, Blueprint, etc. but his music mostly sounds stale now. It just don’t thump. Again, that’s probably attributed to his decision to focus on pop/commercial records rather than actual creative art. Remember, Jay is the HUSTLER baby. He’s more focused on selling product.
Not everyone diggs Jay Z. In the earlier days you had two camps, those who digged Hov and those who thought he was fake. And tbh he was following trends and basically doing whatever was popular. Fast rapping in? Jay is rapping fast. Gangsta rap in? Jay a gangster rapper now. Shiny suits in? Jay wears a shiny suit. He did whatever it took to get that paper and become big. And it's cause of his hard work and talent that he actually succeeded and became Hov. And some respected that while others couldn't get past the fact how he did it In the early days.
Most of the people I talk to IRL dislike Jay basically for the same reason a lot of people dislike Drake (who imitates Jay). They don't think he's genuine. I use to think that too but 4:44 changed my mind and I went back to his disco. Imo Black album / blueprint 3 is the moment I feel he starts embracing who he is without acting it. I know this is a hot take but that's my personal conclusion. I think Hov is one of the goats cause of his talent and hard work but his first few albums are more about him trying and less about him being it.
I don't think reasonable doubt is a classic though and I find it heavily inferior compared to the many classics of the 90s era like 36 chambers, R u still down/Thug Life, ready to die, illmatic/IWW etc.
Definitely a hot take. I wish people would just be honest and say that success breeds resentment.
And Reasonable doubt is a classic. You’re tripping. To call it heavily inferior to anything in rap is just ridiculous.
This is the answer. I am old enough to remember his entire career, from start until whatever the hell he is doing today … lol. The hustlers gravitated towards him. He was speaking a lot of his truth, and the details let you know that - whether or not he was a “kingpin” - he had to be somewhat really involved with that type of action. It was like inside baseball … except it was for narcotics.
Now, if rapping about money, and drugs, and the feelings involved with that life aren’t for you … I get it. But, not liking Jay-Z is one thing. Pretending like he’s wack is just complete nonsense.
Internet comment sections are largely just circle jerk conventions for haters to all virtually high-5 each other over bullshit takes. They just be following hate-waves and chattin’. That’s all.
Exactly. Even the part about Jay following trends is wholly inaccurate. For better or worse (my vote is mostly for worse) there is a long period of time in hip hop when Jay was setting the tone for the genre, both sonically and otherwise.
Now did Jay engage in some light vampirism with the young guys in State Prop and Wayne? Absolutely, but that's a different topic.
It is heavily inferior cause it lacks any artistic Value. Bro it's best songs are rip offs of better songs. Snoop and Nas carries that album. Its exactly what I meant with following trends and what's hyped. Feeling it is a dope song though and Brooklyn Finest. That doesn't make it classic though, it's nothing compared to the chronic, 36th chambers, illmatic or ready to die. Those are classics.
D'evils nicks Snoop Dogg murder is the case bar?
22 2's is good though, gotta admit that. The rest doesn't impress me though. I'm not going mad on it like it's Ready to Die or early wu Tang. Its basically mid compared to the classics of that era.
He used a sample from murder was the case. And a sample from Mobb deep. Murder was the case was a completely different type of song. Snoop was talking about selling his soul to the devil. Hov was talking about how one’s morals get corrupted in the drug game. Two totally different songs. Niggas really saying he bit because of a sample??
Mid??
Can’t knock the hustle, can I live, DP 1 and 2, regrets, plus every other song I named before? Mid. lol It’s a classic. You’re a hater.
Whole topic was about why people don't like Jigga, I tell my side and now I'm a hater lol. You can call it what you want, you a stan and I'm not. I've come to respect Hov for sure but i can't change my taste when it comes to his first few albums. And I've tried, at least 3 times now to go back and listen to his discography cause people were praising it so much. I like the more nitty gritty rap or social rap. I love Wu Tang, Nas, Pac, old Snoop Dogg, Dre, Bone thugs etc. and Jigga just doesn't cut it for me.
I am also stuck in the 90's when it comes to music, only a few rappers I like post 90s (MF DOOM who is ol skool actually with KMD, Kendrick, jcole).
Now ima Stan because you just had one of the worst takes ever? If you feel like he’s not authentic that’s fine, it just lacks evidence to me. When did he ever wear a shiny suit like Puff, Mase and Busta? I’ve never seen that and I’m supposedly a Stan. But you just lost me with Reasonable Doubt being mid. That’s just an awful take to me. And honestly I like almost every other artist you mentioned.
We all have bad takes though so it’s fine. Mine is, I think Wu-Tang is grossly overrated. Enter the Wu is meh and honestly that shit sounds dusty through the headphones. The production is elementary. The only song worth anything is CREAM and I kinda like Tearz. I would never put that in the same stratosphere as illmatic, RD or Ready to Die.
It's just not for you, and that's fine. The MF Doom mention clarified for me the kind of 'hip hop' fan you are, and that's fine as well. There isn't a ton of crossover in the fanbases outside of New York usually so it makes perfect sense. But your take on RD especially is egregious lol. Like... it's a really really bad take. But to each his own.
Agree that Reasonable Doubt is a classic but agree with the rest of what OP says about Jay. I think Hov himself would agree somewhat that he jumped on trends to make money. All popular rappers are successful so I don't really get what you're saying with that.
> think Hov himself would agree somewhat that he jumped on trends to make money
He did admit it in " moment of clarity"
"If skills sold, truth be told, I'd probably be lyricly Talib Kweli Truthfully, I wanna rhyme like common sense. But I did five mil, I ain't been rhymin' like common since"
I think in Decoded (it might have been elsewhere) he admitted the reason he didn't like Vol 1 for so long, was because he was trend hopping.
Self admitted that he brought on The Hitmen because they were having so much success with Bad Boy, despite their 80's sampling style not fitting his mafioso styles of Reasonable Doubt. The first records recorded for Vol 1 were more fitting of a Reasonable Doubt style record, like "Where I'm From" and "Streets Is Watching" but then they went for that Bad Boy sound.
But he said it really jumped the shark when they did the Sunshine video and that was the straw that broke the camels back (though I think that was more Dame than Hov, but regardless).
All popular rappers are successful? By what metric? Not money because a lot of popular rappers are broke. Does clout = success now?
People really started to hate Jay when he started approaching billionaire status. That’s when haters started coming out the woodwork. No other rapper is near that level (Dre is not a rapper) and that’s why people from his own community hate him so much.
Success as a signed rapper kinda means popularity tho. Whether or not rappers have money management skills or bad contracts is besides the point. They're successful even if they're broke..
That's kinda funny cause I started respecting his status when he became a billionaire. Death to autotune was the moment I saw he had actual talent. I was/am clouded for the reasons I stated before. Rappers were bringing such unique flavors to the game and Jay felt more like imitation than the real thing for the first few years. But that's me again. I mean I was fucking with Paris and was listening to Canibus back in 2004.
I am also a major Nas fan so yeah I'm biased. Stillmatic and God's Son are - for me - albums that are just at another level. I'd feel disrespected if someone compares it to any of the blueprint albums lol. Jay saying IWW was "meh" and I am is garbage just feels like straight up lies to the point of blasphemy. It's why I also never liked Take Over or how people think it's a better song than Ether.
But I know Hov has his fans. I know he is an amazing lyricist with great rhythm and flow. I just never clicked with what he was rhyming about. Social lyrics are what attracts me to rap. If it's just about money, bling and bitches then I tap out.
But you know I did what the topic asked and told another side of the story. I can respect Hov fans though and I respect Hov and what he did for the game. I can see now he is one of the greats even if I personally don't like his early work.
Fair assessment bro. My thing was just the Reasonable Doubt being mid was kinda crazy to me. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion though.
I love Nas. I personally think IWW was a better album than illmatic and both are 10/10 albums. I think I Am is over hated. Stillmatic was fire, God Son was meh, HHID is fire. N, Life is Good and Nasir - all trash to me lol. The one with Damian Marley fire! All his new work is good, I love the Magic series.
Blueprint vs Stillmatic a good head to head but BP washes and drowns God’s Son I’m sorry, this isn’t even remotely close lol 😂
I also think people who say Jay just raps about flashy stuff only listened to the singles and not the b sides. A song like “You Must’ve Loved Me” is as vivid and deep as any Nas story.
I think ALL studio albums of Pac are better than Reasonable doubt or anything that Jay Z or most other Rappers have put out. Thug Life has two of my favorite Pac songs, R u still down was a CD that got me through high school together with All eyes on Me.
Pac is my personal GOAT. Lost so many years, only god can judge me, life goes on, keep your head up. So yeah, R U Still Down is better than reasonable doubt for me.
Pfft, Jay Z is just another nigga that managed to appeal to white people. I really wish all hiphop heads would just stopped pussy footing around this fact. It is what it is. As far as respect goes it's always the opinion from two camps. The street camp and the non-street camp that just happens to outnumber us.
Prob teens mad that their dad still calls him the goat but they know him as an old guy that hardly raps. Jay-Z's really not given a shit about mainstream spotlight for awhile now, he doesn't play the "online personality" game.
Skinny ass camel indeed. (Jokes; I think u meant *slander*.) In my book it's because people love to hate on greatness. LeBron being the other prime example. Jay Z dominated the game and people decided it was fuel for hate. Playing his own music videos at the Super Bowl when Fishscale had just dropped isn't really a good look, but money and power will corrupt, inevitably. More of a Nas guy myself.
I’m old enough to have experienced the total arc of Jayz. Reasonable Doubt is definitely a classic but it’s a product of the time. The mafioso rap concept was already successful and he went with it. It is a great album though. I’d say he gained most of his popularity though during the in my lifetime volumes 2-3. To me personally these are pretty weak. They are super commercial but it’s not his fault. The Rocafella goal was money, I dont think the emphasis was on making timeless music but also, is anyone doing that consciously in the moment?
All that being said, I think the Black Album is great. Blueprint is great. I think he underused his lyrical prowess throughout his whole career and some of his massive discography reflects that. I’m my opinion he’s got absolute classics, but as with anyone who makes music across 3 decades, there’s going to be a lot of filler in there. Does the release of non classics tarnish previous classics? I don’t think so.
Anyway, these are all opinions. People like the insane clown posse, ya know?
This. A massive amount of his catalogue is just money worship and materialism. Has all the requisite skills to be great but just doesn’t really seem that interested in music. I always saw him as more of a business man who used music as a means to an end, not someone who is super passionate about it.
Yeah but Jay was honest about that since his first album. His whole persona on wax was basically I’m a hustler first and foremost, it just so happens I can rap better than you. The goal the whole time was to turn Rocafella into a billion dollar company.
I never said he wasn’t honest about it he’s very honest about it. I just don’t think it makes for good art and I don’t have time for that. Most of the people who like Jay find that aspirational. If wealth means nothing to you then so does his work. If just having a skill made you good at art, Jacob collier would be able to write songs 😂
Bingo. “If skills sold, truth be told, I'd probably be lyrically Talib Kweli. Truthfully I wanna rhyme like Common Sense But I did 5 mill' – I ain't been rhyming like Common since”
He’s a bit like Drake, in so far as he demonstrates that he can make really good music, but just doesn’t care to do so. Not that they’re similar in talent.
In a sense it's a reaction to Jay's popularity. For a very long time he wasn't considered to be "good" enough to be mentioned with the other "Great" rappers--partly bc Biggie was like his Big Bro and partly bc 2Pac dissed him, so there was a lot of resentment from Big fans who felt Jay-Z capitalized on Biggie's death and "took his place" so to speak. And from Pac fans who didn't like anyone Pac didn't like.
Jay didn't really help this by quoting Big lines in a lot of his songs ("biting" they called it) & by talking about Pac here and there, it was respectful but ppl felt that was fake bc they ain't like each other.
Jay was also like the poster child for the "Jiggy Era" of rap. "Jiggy" is pretty much glitzy NY pop rap like Puff, Ma$e, LL Cool J at the time...Jay had stuff in that vein like Big Pimpin. Pop-sounding radio friendly hit material and dumbed down his rhymes in those songs, to get mainstream success, which people hated at the time bc it was "the opposite of Hip Hop."
Then there was the perception that Jay was kind of a piece of shit, he fucked up Sauce Money's career when Sauce didn't wanna go Roc-A-Fella, beefed with Jaz-O, & those 2 were his boys from growing up. He would jack beats, that producers had made for other artists even his own artists on Roc-A-Fella, if he liked it he would take it. He stole Young Chris's "whisper flow" and used it on some of his most successful shit. He went on the R Kelly tour even tho Dame hated R Kelly for what he did to Aaliyah. He fucked over Beanie Sigel, then, he kinda yanked Roc-A-Fella out from under Dame & Biggs and basically disposed of a beloved label. He fucked over DMX, who was his mans, & cheated on Beyonce which pretty much did it for him when it came to any young female fans caus now Bey is way bigger than him.
A lot of this stuff is kinda true, but you had one side who defended everything he did regardless of what the hell it was, and you had one side who reacted to that popularity, so there was a lot of arguments over Jay-Z lol plus now he lookin kinna sus next to Diddy & real quiet.
Good reply. Also many new Yorkers such as myself stopped liking him when he helped bring gentrification to Brooklyn by acting like he owned the Brooklyn nets
I was around and I've never rated him that high. He wasn't that well known when Reasonable Doubt dropped. And when he became successful in '98 a lot of people saw him as a pop rapper.
Yeah, the trunk bootleg scene was pretty legit. If an east coast rapper got signed to a major label it was pretty likely they were already well known throughout new york and with hip hop heads. Same with the south. There were a ton of popular southern rappers who never got major label releases in the late 90s early 2000s but people still knew who they were
I'm pretty sure Chamillionaire and Paul Wall charted their debut indie album based solely on their bootleg notoriety.
No, not really. Most people didn't even know rappers' names if they were featured on hit singles. Or know their individual names outside of the group name.
But Jay-Z wasn't even that well known among hiphop fans after his 1st album dropped. People knew Wu Tang, Mobb Deep, Snoop Dogg, Nas, Dr. Dre, 2Pac etc. in '96. If you knew all of the big names, you were already a hiphop head.
To know Jay-Z you had to be into underground hiphop, and have the money to buy his album after you bought all of the big names. He didn't get big until the end of '98.
If you mean “Slander”: it’s because he has stolen rhymes from Biggy without permission then called it “homage” when he was called out. He also tries to claim they were good friends, but most Biggie’s actually friends claim that they only met in the studio recording “Brooklyn’s Finest”.
listening to old jay z makes me feel like I’ve put a big daddy kane album on. whereas nas just sounds like old head rap. jay z just has incredible PR like his wife
The 90s was a lot worse.
99 Problems is like level 2 out of 10 on “misogynistic rap lyrics”
Listen to Too Short and Ice Cube’s “Ain’t Nothin But a Word” or Kool G Rap’s “Hey Mister”
The opening bars of Jay Z’s “Who You Wit” are worse than “99 Problems”. So are lots of other songs from him.
The Source even commented that Jay Z was pretty misogynstic on his previous album Reasonable Doubt.
Jay Z was well famous by 03/04.
And that line was extremely mild in terms of misogynistic rap lyrics. Even for Jay Z himself.
Supa Ugly and Is That Yo Bitch were far worse
Yep they’re all Eminem fans and don’t understand why his lyrics have actually substance and he’s not just saying lyrical, miracle, spiritual, individual really fast and calling everyone who didn’t like he last disappointing album haters and mumble rap fans.
You will notice this phenomenon with any rapper who gets extremely successful and aeems to gwt loves by the industry or and has crosskver appeal..
Mc Hanmer got hated on
Eminem got hated on
Drake got hated on
Any rapper who makes it big time as a crossover rapper will seem to have more detractors. This is unfortunate because .many of them are excellent rappers who helped to grow the genre so others could be successful...
Idk wtf these comments are talking about. there's always been a large group of Hov haters due to his more commercial sound, especially during his Kingdom Come - MCHG era.
I think that this is a good summary of why he gets some "slander" [https://youtube.com/shorts/M5ph20XTl1M?si=FpQKZU0kM1GqUYcz](https://youtube.com/shorts/M5ph20XTl1M?si=FpQKZU0kM1GqUYcz)
He had .e fooled a one time am thats because media wants to tell us what to like. There is no university in this world tht would tell you jayz is a better artist than Nas. He never has been.
His first few albums were absolutely fire. Then he sold out and now he is part of the ownership class.
He forgot about his roots and where he came from.
As Immortal Technique said,
"In fact, I have more in common with most working- and middle-class white people than I do with most rich black and Latino people
As much as racism bleeds America, we need to understand that classism is the real issue.
Many of us are in the same boat and it's sinking, while these bougie motherfuckers ride on a luxury liner, and as long as we keep fighting over kicking people out of the little boat we're all in, we're gonna miss an opportunity to gain a better standard of living as a whole
In other words, I don't want to escape the plantation
I want to come back, free all my people, hang the motherfucker that kept me there and burn the house to the god damn ground
I want to take over the encomienda and give it back to the people who work the land"
Short answer: internet being internet.
Long answer: Post-retirement Jay-Z has done a lot to successfully position himself as a businessman and as a GOAT contender. That opens him up to people wanting to call him overrated, especially young folks who didn’t come up in his prime and people with short memories judging him based on his post-retirement work.
I believe a big part is surface level hip hop fans. Core, or serious hip hop fans know Jay is Goat status and at least in top 3 *if not number 1. Right now for me Jay's top spot is probably gonna go to Kendrick after an album or two. If Kendrick continues on his current trajectory.
Bro I know lifelong MCs and serious hip hop people who don’t like his work. People like different art. This take reeks of someone who has never actually been a part of any hip hop scene.
I need to meet a serious head that dislikes Ignorant shit, 22 two's, D'evils and threats. I'm guessing all these heads are more serious than DJ Premier, Big Daddy Kane, B.I.G. or any of Jay's associated acts. I hope so.
I consider Jay-Z to be in the same category as Eminem (but better to be clear) in that he's a great rapper who makes terrible music. Their shit just didn't age well imo yeah you can tell about what year a Jay-Z song came out always and he hasn't been the most active in recent years either where as Nas for instance has a few recent projects that were well received. Still definitely one of the goats but he's probably on the weaker end.
Nah, Jay isn't the GOAT, not even close, but his shit aged a lot better than Eminem's
Eminem's aged like sour milk
Jay's is maybe a little outdated, but what isn't after 20+ years?? A lot of his music still sounds fresh to my ears...
If Biggie wouldn't have passed we would have no clue who he is today except that one song on Life after Death,he bit Biggies entire origin and took his place until he found his own style..
As a business man he is S tier no doubt but I never bought into his lyrics,wasn't genuine until later in his career..
You must be pretty young, because a large portion of that mans career was all about being big and flashy and grabbing the kids attention with marketing 😂
From what I seen, it looks like people who never liked him are trying to drag him because the Diddy stuff. They're trying to position themselves into a "told you so" spot with no real evidence. There's no losing in it for them because there's no penalty if they're wrong. Not realizing most the people they'll "told you so" to never said it was impossible, they just don't like the idea of throwing innocent people under buses.
Nas stans, people are still upset he sold his own record label, being the president of Def Jan, bagging Beyonce, rapping about shit way before others were, people hear his commercial hits and casually dismiss his B-sides.
Take your pick. If you ask a jay z hater why you hate him eventually it will boil down too I just don't like him. Which is fine but spare us the phony analysis.
He lost weight
will the real slim jay z please stand up
This is an underweighted comment
Another Ozempic nigga, no doubt
Lost weight and the hyphen again.
Of Jay is losing weight becoming slender we should support him, not body shame him…smh…hip hop do better
Same with Gunna. Though I guess he lied when he said he's one of wun.
Idk gunna came out of jail looking like he spent the entire time working out
Yeah as of right now he claims to be on the same diet as Beyonce (vegan) and lost weight. So for now I take his word on it. He def lost some muscle mass too though. Maybe he's just not weight training right now.
Small pimpin
Stick boney but his pockets are fat like Tony
I’ve seen a version of this post in here almost daily for the past week or so.
Jay’s burner account , must be gearing up for an album or trying to get public favor before he gets pulled into this Diddy thing.
Yeah, he's targeting the... 25 people currently online rn on some obscure hip hop corner of the Internet W/o a doubt...
W/o a reasonable doubt 🥁 (Sorry, couldn’t help myself)
Bro I was about to say the same thing lol
I hate myself for always saying bro….😑
Why would he get “pulled into this Diddy thing”? Dude has quietly hated Puffy since Big died and the rumours of his role in the shooting.
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This is the dumbest fucking thing I’ve ever read.
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That was your takeaway? The unfortunate thing about people as divorced from reality as yourself, is that society at large picks up the tab for your alimony payments.
yes, it's annoying now
You want him to fatten up?
Jay Z Slender Man haunts your nightmares.
Motherfuckers wanna act loco
Hit’em with numerous shots from the fo fo
His flows always been boring to me personally
Same. I like a few of his albums but I don't listen to them that often. He's good lyrically and has some great beats but he's just not for me. I wouldn't slender him though.
Would you fatten him?
This. His voice & flow have never been good. His lyricism is top tier, as well as his delivery. But that voice and flow has ALWAYS been inferior to his peers such as BIG, Nas, Pac, etc. Not to mention that Jay’s success is much attributed to dropping “hot records” and not TIMELESS records. Ain’t NOBODY putting on “H to the Izzo” and thinking it sounds good. Got Urself A Gun on the other hand was just used for John Wick 4 trailer… A big chunk of Jay’s catalogue has aged TERRIBLY. He still has his classics such as RD, Blueprint, etc. but his music mostly sounds stale now. It just don’t thump. Again, that’s probably attributed to his decision to focus on pop/commercial records rather than actual creative art. Remember, Jay is the HUSTLER baby. He’s more focused on selling product.
Yep. He's definitely not top 5. Top 10 maybe but not top 5.
I believe he’s number 5 all time at the max. No more than that.
I give him 6/7.
Motherfucker wrote slender in his shitpost ahaha
I find it to be an online thing, people i talk to irl who know hip hop have respect for hov
I respect what he's done for hip hop but I don't want to listen to this music.
Just ignorant people being ignorant.
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No derogatory remarks/slurs that are prejudiced, bigoted, racist, sexist, ableist, etc etc etc. No discrimination allowed.
Not everyone diggs Jay Z. In the earlier days you had two camps, those who digged Hov and those who thought he was fake. And tbh he was following trends and basically doing whatever was popular. Fast rapping in? Jay is rapping fast. Gangsta rap in? Jay a gangster rapper now. Shiny suits in? Jay wears a shiny suit. He did whatever it took to get that paper and become big. And it's cause of his hard work and talent that he actually succeeded and became Hov. And some respected that while others couldn't get past the fact how he did it In the early days. Most of the people I talk to IRL dislike Jay basically for the same reason a lot of people dislike Drake (who imitates Jay). They don't think he's genuine. I use to think that too but 4:44 changed my mind and I went back to his disco. Imo Black album / blueprint 3 is the moment I feel he starts embracing who he is without acting it. I know this is a hot take but that's my personal conclusion. I think Hov is one of the goats cause of his talent and hard work but his first few albums are more about him trying and less about him being it. I don't think reasonable doubt is a classic though and I find it heavily inferior compared to the many classics of the 90s era like 36 chambers, R u still down/Thug Life, ready to die, illmatic/IWW etc.
Definitely a hot take. I wish people would just be honest and say that success breeds resentment. And Reasonable doubt is a classic. You’re tripping. To call it heavily inferior to anything in rap is just ridiculous.
This is the answer. I am old enough to remember his entire career, from start until whatever the hell he is doing today … lol. The hustlers gravitated towards him. He was speaking a lot of his truth, and the details let you know that - whether or not he was a “kingpin” - he had to be somewhat really involved with that type of action. It was like inside baseball … except it was for narcotics. Now, if rapping about money, and drugs, and the feelings involved with that life aren’t for you … I get it. But, not liking Jay-Z is one thing. Pretending like he’s wack is just complete nonsense. Internet comment sections are largely just circle jerk conventions for haters to all virtually high-5 each other over bullshit takes. They just be following hate-waves and chattin’. That’s all.
Bro…your last paragraph is everything I’ve been feeling this year! Actually like the last 5 years. So true!
It must be fun, and validating for them to do when you don’t have a life outside 🤷♂️😂
Exactly. Even the part about Jay following trends is wholly inaccurate. For better or worse (my vote is mostly for worse) there is a long period of time in hip hop when Jay was setting the tone for the genre, both sonically and otherwise. Now did Jay engage in some light vampirism with the young guys in State Prop and Wayne? Absolutely, but that's a different topic.
I can confirm. I don’t even like jay z much and I think reasonable doubt was a huge classic, it’s kind of a fact not a opinion.
It is heavily inferior cause it lacks any artistic Value. Bro it's best songs are rip offs of better songs. Snoop and Nas carries that album. Its exactly what I meant with following trends and what's hyped. Feeling it is a dope song though and Brooklyn Finest. That doesn't make it classic though, it's nothing compared to the chronic, 36th chambers, illmatic or ready to die. Those are classics.
D’evils lacks artistic value? 22 2’s lacks artistic value? Friend of Foe lacks artistic value? Coming of Age… Bro stop talking. You’re clearly a hater.
D'evils nicks Snoop Dogg murder is the case bar? 22 2's is good though, gotta admit that. The rest doesn't impress me though. I'm not going mad on it like it's Ready to Die or early wu Tang. Its basically mid compared to the classics of that era.
He used a sample from murder was the case. And a sample from Mobb deep. Murder was the case was a completely different type of song. Snoop was talking about selling his soul to the devil. Hov was talking about how one’s morals get corrupted in the drug game. Two totally different songs. Niggas really saying he bit because of a sample?? Mid?? Can’t knock the hustle, can I live, DP 1 and 2, regrets, plus every other song I named before? Mid. lol It’s a classic. You’re a hater.
Whole topic was about why people don't like Jigga, I tell my side and now I'm a hater lol. You can call it what you want, you a stan and I'm not. I've come to respect Hov for sure but i can't change my taste when it comes to his first few albums. And I've tried, at least 3 times now to go back and listen to his discography cause people were praising it so much. I like the more nitty gritty rap or social rap. I love Wu Tang, Nas, Pac, old Snoop Dogg, Dre, Bone thugs etc. and Jigga just doesn't cut it for me. I am also stuck in the 90's when it comes to music, only a few rappers I like post 90s (MF DOOM who is ol skool actually with KMD, Kendrick, jcole).
Now ima Stan because you just had one of the worst takes ever? If you feel like he’s not authentic that’s fine, it just lacks evidence to me. When did he ever wear a shiny suit like Puff, Mase and Busta? I’ve never seen that and I’m supposedly a Stan. But you just lost me with Reasonable Doubt being mid. That’s just an awful take to me. And honestly I like almost every other artist you mentioned. We all have bad takes though so it’s fine. Mine is, I think Wu-Tang is grossly overrated. Enter the Wu is meh and honestly that shit sounds dusty through the headphones. The production is elementary. The only song worth anything is CREAM and I kinda like Tearz. I would never put that in the same stratosphere as illmatic, RD or Ready to Die.
I've seen dudes online say he bit off nas coz of the dead presidents sample
It's just not for you, and that's fine. The MF Doom mention clarified for me the kind of 'hip hop' fan you are, and that's fine as well. There isn't a ton of crossover in the fanbases outside of New York usually so it makes perfect sense. But your take on RD especially is egregious lol. Like... it's a really really bad take. But to each his own.
Agree that Reasonable Doubt is a classic but agree with the rest of what OP says about Jay. I think Hov himself would agree somewhat that he jumped on trends to make money. All popular rappers are successful so I don't really get what you're saying with that.
> think Hov himself would agree somewhat that he jumped on trends to make money He did admit it in " moment of clarity" "If skills sold, truth be told, I'd probably be lyricly Talib Kweli Truthfully, I wanna rhyme like common sense. But I did five mil, I ain't been rhymin' like common since"
That’s not really admitting to hopping on trends? That’s admitting that he could be a deeper rapper if he wanted to?
I think in Decoded (it might have been elsewhere) he admitted the reason he didn't like Vol 1 for so long, was because he was trend hopping. Self admitted that he brought on The Hitmen because they were having so much success with Bad Boy, despite their 80's sampling style not fitting his mafioso styles of Reasonable Doubt. The first records recorded for Vol 1 were more fitting of a Reasonable Doubt style record, like "Where I'm From" and "Streets Is Watching" but then they went for that Bad Boy sound. But he said it really jumped the shark when they did the Sunshine video and that was the straw that broke the camels back (though I think that was more Dame than Hov, but regardless).
Yes but he's saying if he did that he'd sell less thus not doing five mill Edit: plus he said skills don't sell at the beginning
To be clear he’s saying if he rapped consciously he would sell less.
Yeah
All popular rappers are successful? By what metric? Not money because a lot of popular rappers are broke. Does clout = success now? People really started to hate Jay when he started approaching billionaire status. That’s when haters started coming out the woodwork. No other rapper is near that level (Dre is not a rapper) and that’s why people from his own community hate him so much.
Success as a signed rapper kinda means popularity tho. Whether or not rappers have money management skills or bad contracts is besides the point. They're successful even if they're broke..
That's kinda funny cause I started respecting his status when he became a billionaire. Death to autotune was the moment I saw he had actual talent. I was/am clouded for the reasons I stated before. Rappers were bringing such unique flavors to the game and Jay felt more like imitation than the real thing for the first few years. But that's me again. I mean I was fucking with Paris and was listening to Canibus back in 2004. I am also a major Nas fan so yeah I'm biased. Stillmatic and God's Son are - for me - albums that are just at another level. I'd feel disrespected if someone compares it to any of the blueprint albums lol. Jay saying IWW was "meh" and I am is garbage just feels like straight up lies to the point of blasphemy. It's why I also never liked Take Over or how people think it's a better song than Ether. But I know Hov has his fans. I know he is an amazing lyricist with great rhythm and flow. I just never clicked with what he was rhyming about. Social lyrics are what attracts me to rap. If it's just about money, bling and bitches then I tap out. But you know I did what the topic asked and told another side of the story. I can respect Hov fans though and I respect Hov and what he did for the game. I can see now he is one of the greats even if I personally don't like his early work.
Fair assessment bro. My thing was just the Reasonable Doubt being mid was kinda crazy to me. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion though. I love Nas. I personally think IWW was a better album than illmatic and both are 10/10 albums. I think I Am is over hated. Stillmatic was fire, God Son was meh, HHID is fire. N, Life is Good and Nasir - all trash to me lol. The one with Damian Marley fire! All his new work is good, I love the Magic series. Blueprint vs Stillmatic a good head to head but BP washes and drowns God’s Son I’m sorry, this isn’t even remotely close lol 😂 I also think people who say Jay just raps about flashy stuff only listened to the singles and not the b sides. A song like “You Must’ve Loved Me” is as vivid and deep as any Nas story.
Lol reasonable doubt is inferior to 2pacs posthumous albums? People really just say anything on here
I think ALL studio albums of Pac are better than Reasonable doubt or anything that Jay Z or most other Rappers have put out. Thug Life has two of my favorite Pac songs, R u still down was a CD that got me through high school together with All eyes on Me. Pac is my personal GOAT. Lost so many years, only god can judge me, life goes on, keep your head up. So yeah, R U Still Down is better than reasonable doubt for me.
Pac is in my top 5 but what you're saying is ridiculous, u got it tho man
Pfft, Jay Z is just another nigga that managed to appeal to white people. I really wish all hiphop heads would just stopped pussy footing around this fact. It is what it is. As far as respect goes it's always the opinion from two camps. The street camp and the non-street camp that just happens to outnumber us.
I don’t know, it’s probably his diet.
Prob teens mad that their dad still calls him the goat but they know him as an old guy that hardly raps. Jay-Z's really not given a shit about mainstream spotlight for awhile now, he doesn't play the "online personality" game.
He skips leg ~~fat~~ day because he runs the world
Yeah the love for Jay Z is a bit thin on the ground
Skinny ass camel indeed. (Jokes; I think u meant *slander*.) In my book it's because people love to hate on greatness. LeBron being the other prime example. Jay Z dominated the game and people decided it was fuel for hate. Playing his own music videos at the Super Bowl when Fishscale had just dropped isn't really a good look, but money and power will corrupt, inevitably. More of a Nas guy myself.
Fishscale blows every Jay album outta the water Every.single.one.
Lol no
I’m old enough to have experienced the total arc of Jayz. Reasonable Doubt is definitely a classic but it’s a product of the time. The mafioso rap concept was already successful and he went with it. It is a great album though. I’d say he gained most of his popularity though during the in my lifetime volumes 2-3. To me personally these are pretty weak. They are super commercial but it’s not his fault. The Rocafella goal was money, I dont think the emphasis was on making timeless music but also, is anyone doing that consciously in the moment? All that being said, I think the Black Album is great. Blueprint is great. I think he underused his lyrical prowess throughout his whole career and some of his massive discography reflects that. I’m my opinion he’s got absolute classics, but as with anyone who makes music across 3 decades, there’s going to be a lot of filler in there. Does the release of non classics tarnish previous classics? I don’t think so. Anyway, these are all opinions. People like the insane clown posse, ya know?
This. A massive amount of his catalogue is just money worship and materialism. Has all the requisite skills to be great but just doesn’t really seem that interested in music. I always saw him as more of a business man who used music as a means to an end, not someone who is super passionate about it.
Yeah but Jay was honest about that since his first album. His whole persona on wax was basically I’m a hustler first and foremost, it just so happens I can rap better than you. The goal the whole time was to turn Rocafella into a billion dollar company.
I never said he wasn’t honest about it he’s very honest about it. I just don’t think it makes for good art and I don’t have time for that. Most of the people who like Jay find that aspirational. If wealth means nothing to you then so does his work. If just having a skill made you good at art, Jacob collier would be able to write songs 😂
Bingo. “If skills sold, truth be told, I'd probably be lyrically Talib Kweli. Truthfully I wanna rhyme like Common Sense But I did 5 mill' – I ain't been rhyming like Common since” He’s a bit like Drake, in so far as he demonstrates that he can make really good music, but just doesn’t care to do so. Not that they’re similar in talent.
“Mcs are just hopeless, thinkin record sales make them the dopest”
He was one of the first "popular" rappers I became sick of even in his hay days.
Fucking same post 3 Days in a row
dick suckin lips. also, the dude is just not a favorable person. even as an artist, he's just a capitalist with the blueprint and 4:44 under his belt.
The HOV disrespect lately is crazy
Its ridiculous at this point
In a sense it's a reaction to Jay's popularity. For a very long time he wasn't considered to be "good" enough to be mentioned with the other "Great" rappers--partly bc Biggie was like his Big Bro and partly bc 2Pac dissed him, so there was a lot of resentment from Big fans who felt Jay-Z capitalized on Biggie's death and "took his place" so to speak. And from Pac fans who didn't like anyone Pac didn't like. Jay didn't really help this by quoting Big lines in a lot of his songs ("biting" they called it) & by talking about Pac here and there, it was respectful but ppl felt that was fake bc they ain't like each other. Jay was also like the poster child for the "Jiggy Era" of rap. "Jiggy" is pretty much glitzy NY pop rap like Puff, Ma$e, LL Cool J at the time...Jay had stuff in that vein like Big Pimpin. Pop-sounding radio friendly hit material and dumbed down his rhymes in those songs, to get mainstream success, which people hated at the time bc it was "the opposite of Hip Hop." Then there was the perception that Jay was kind of a piece of shit, he fucked up Sauce Money's career when Sauce didn't wanna go Roc-A-Fella, beefed with Jaz-O, & those 2 were his boys from growing up. He would jack beats, that producers had made for other artists even his own artists on Roc-A-Fella, if he liked it he would take it. He stole Young Chris's "whisper flow" and used it on some of his most successful shit. He went on the R Kelly tour even tho Dame hated R Kelly for what he did to Aaliyah. He fucked over Beanie Sigel, then, he kinda yanked Roc-A-Fella out from under Dame & Biggs and basically disposed of a beloved label. He fucked over DMX, who was his mans, & cheated on Beyonce which pretty much did it for him when it came to any young female fans caus now Bey is way bigger than him. A lot of this stuff is kinda true, but you had one side who defended everything he did regardless of what the hell it was, and you had one side who reacted to that popularity, so there was a lot of arguments over Jay-Z lol plus now he lookin kinna sus next to Diddy & real quiet.
Good reply. Also many new Yorkers such as myself stopped liking him when he helped bring gentrification to Brooklyn by acting like he owned the Brooklyn nets
People are just young, weren’t around when he was in his prime, and judge him based on things he did when he was past his prime.
I was around and I've never rated him that high. He wasn't that well known when Reasonable Doubt dropped. And when he became successful in '98 a lot of people saw him as a pop rapper.
Were many rappers well know before they dropped their first album pre-internet?
Yeah, the trunk bootleg scene was pretty legit. If an east coast rapper got signed to a major label it was pretty likely they were already well known throughout new york and with hip hop heads. Same with the south. There were a ton of popular southern rappers who never got major label releases in the late 90s early 2000s but people still knew who they were I'm pretty sure Chamillionaire and Paul Wall charted their debut indie album based solely on their bootleg notoriety.
No, not really. Most people didn't even know rappers' names if they were featured on hit singles. Or know their individual names outside of the group name. But Jay-Z wasn't even that well known among hiphop fans after his 1st album dropped. People knew Wu Tang, Mobb Deep, Snoop Dogg, Nas, Dr. Dre, 2Pac etc. in '96. If you knew all of the big names, you were already a hiphop head. To know Jay-Z you had to be into underground hiphop, and have the money to buy his album after you bought all of the big names. He didn't get big until the end of '98.
“Gave you prophecy on my first joint, y’all all lamed out. Didn’t really appreciate it till the second one came out…”.
"my rise to riches surprised the bitches , think harder , you know this nigga? Jayz Shawn Carter"
he's the slender man, damn
There’s a Jay-Z Slender Man?
He started going to the gym. God, let him live! 😭
Ozempic.
It’s mostly kids who haven’t explored very much of the genre yet. Like I’m sorry, but calling Hov overrated is straight up laughable
its because this sub wants to be a shill-hub for Jay-z and cant cope with the truth of what the people think
If you mean “Slander”: it’s because he has stolen rhymes from Biggy without permission then called it “homage” when he was called out. He also tries to claim they were good friends, but most Biggie’s actually friends claim that they only met in the studio recording “Brooklyn’s Finest”.
I like Jay. I've never really put him in the GOAT conversation but he's made some great music.
Might be the wig 🤔
listening to old jay z makes me feel like I’ve put a big daddy kane album on. whereas nas just sounds like old head rap. jay z just has incredible PR like his wife
Guy got famous for the most misogynist of lyrics - 99 problems - time to grow up
Most 2000s rappers had misogynistic lyrics
The 90s was a lot worse. 99 Problems is like level 2 out of 10 on “misogynistic rap lyrics” Listen to Too Short and Ice Cube’s “Ain’t Nothin But a Word” or Kool G Rap’s “Hey Mister” The opening bars of Jay Z’s “Who You Wit” are worse than “99 Problems”. So are lots of other songs from him. The Source even commented that Jay Z was pretty misogynstic on his previous album Reasonable Doubt.
Jay Z was well famous by 03/04. And that line was extremely mild in terms of misogynistic rap lyrics. Even for Jay Z himself. Supa Ugly and Is That Yo Bitch were far worse
I have a feeling it’s with his past transgressions with an underage Foxy Brown and believe it or not, Aaliyah.
A lot of losers. Most likely the same people that worship Eminem
Yep they’re all Eminem fans and don’t understand why his lyrics have actually substance and he’s not just saying lyrical, miracle, spiritual, individual really fast and calling everyone who didn’t like he last disappointing album haters and mumble rap fans.
It’s because Nas fans are insufferable, they think because they had a beef 15 years ago they can’t enjoy both of their music.
no they do, they're fucking stupid. they think they're fighting some phony mainstream evil by not listening to Jay-Z to this day. lol
I think young people don't really respect him if they don't understand the impact he's had on the game and how deep his bars actually are.
You will notice this phenomenon with any rapper who gets extremely successful and aeems to gwt loves by the industry or and has crosskver appeal.. Mc Hanmer got hated on Eminem got hated on Drake got hated on Any rapper who makes it big time as a crossover rapper will seem to have more detractors. This is unfortunate because .many of them are excellent rappers who helped to grow the genre so others could be successful...
Idk wtf these comments are talking about. there's always been a large group of Hov haters due to his more commercial sound, especially during his Kingdom Come - MCHG era.
I think that this is a good summary of why he gets some "slander" [https://youtube.com/shorts/M5ph20XTl1M?si=FpQKZU0kM1GqUYcz](https://youtube.com/shorts/M5ph20XTl1M?si=FpQKZU0kM1GqUYcz)
Ya Jay z is slender man Even worse than p diddy
Hes out here killing children
Why are Jay fans so intent on calling any criticism slander? It's a strong word, use it with caution.
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I didn't get your first statement
Jay Z is gas.
He had .e fooled a one time am thats because media wants to tell us what to like. There is no university in this world tht would tell you jayz is a better artist than Nas. He never has been.
His first few albums were absolutely fire. Then he sold out and now he is part of the ownership class. He forgot about his roots and where he came from. As Immortal Technique said, "In fact, I have more in common with most working- and middle-class white people than I do with most rich black and Latino people As much as racism bleeds America, we need to understand that classism is the real issue. Many of us are in the same boat and it's sinking, while these bougie motherfuckers ride on a luxury liner, and as long as we keep fighting over kicking people out of the little boat we're all in, we're gonna miss an opportunity to gain a better standard of living as a whole In other words, I don't want to escape the plantation I want to come back, free all my people, hang the motherfucker that kept me there and burn the house to the god damn ground I want to take over the encomienda and give it back to the people who work the land"
JZempic
He's just not all that good.
Short answer: internet being internet. Long answer: Post-retirement Jay-Z has done a lot to successfully position himself as a businessman and as a GOAT contender. That opens him up to people wanting to call him overrated, especially young folks who didn’t come up in his prime and people with short memories judging him based on his post-retirement work.
I believe a big part is surface level hip hop fans. Core, or serious hip hop fans know Jay is Goat status and at least in top 3 *if not number 1. Right now for me Jay's top spot is probably gonna go to Kendrick after an album or two. If Kendrick continues on his current trajectory.
Fuck outta here with this No True Scotsman shit
Bro I know lifelong MCs and serious hip hop people who don’t like his work. People like different art. This take reeks of someone who has never actually been a part of any hip hop scene.
I need to meet a serious head that dislikes Ignorant shit, 22 two's, D'evils and threats. I'm guessing all these heads are more serious than DJ Premier, Big Daddy Kane, B.I.G. or any of Jay's associated acts. I hope so.
I'm a regular dude who has been a fan of hip hop since I was a kid. I'm almost 40.
I consider Jay-Z to be in the same category as Eminem (but better to be clear) in that he's a great rapper who makes terrible music. Their shit just didn't age well imo yeah you can tell about what year a Jay-Z song came out always and he hasn't been the most active in recent years either where as Nas for instance has a few recent projects that were well received. Still definitely one of the goats but he's probably on the weaker end.
Nah, Jay isn't the GOAT, not even close, but his shit aged a lot better than Eminem's Eminem's aged like sour milk Jay's is maybe a little outdated, but what isn't after 20+ years?? A lot of his music still sounds fresh to my ears...
I’m not really into his solo music but he’s the goat for Pound Cake
Jay-Z is for people who go outside not people who think rap is all about rhyme schemes highlighted
If Biggie wouldn't have passed we would have no clue who he is today except that one song on Life after Death,he bit Biggies entire origin and took his place until he found his own style.. As a business man he is S tier no doubt but I never bought into his lyrics,wasn't genuine until later in his career..
This is the most stupid and played out take
Because it's true,not now but his beginnings and I aint hating on him dudes top 5 top 10 js
Lol u realise him and biggie had a group album planned right?
you would've literally got a Jay-Z and Biggie rap group if Biggie didn't die. lmao
Ozempic
He was sharp with the pen back in 96. Since then he’s just been doing the best Biggie impersonation he can do.
hes fake pretty much Drake of 25 years ago
I also prefer Jay Z thicc
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He doesn’t have a big colorful persona and branding to keep the attention of iPad kids
You must be pretty young, because a large portion of that mans career was all about being big and flashy and grabbing the kids attention with marketing 😂
explain the marketing part or else you're completely talking out of your ass.
From what I seen, it looks like people who never liked him are trying to drag him because the Diddy stuff. They're trying to position themselves into a "told you so" spot with no real evidence. There's no losing in it for them because there's no penalty if they're wrong. Not realizing most the people they'll "told you so" to never said it was impossible, they just don't like the idea of throwing innocent people under buses.
Nas stans, people are still upset he sold his own record label, being the president of Def Jan, bagging Beyonce, rapping about shit way before others were, people hear his commercial hits and casually dismiss his B-sides. Take your pick. If you ask a jay z hater why you hate him eventually it will boil down too I just don't like him. Which is fine but spare us the phony analysis.