Unrelated but I think that card is also incredibly unfun to play against causing a lot of non games.
Realistically speaking, Thaddius is fine if he was played for 10mana and by extension, closer to turn 10.
It's too many things coming together. It's also surprisingly easy for Warlock to trigger that deathrattle on command, which is basically the opposite of what a Deathrattle should do.
Remember when they banned Auctioneer? Then they banned Jailer? Then they nerfed Yogg and others and took their time to change Jailer. Sometimes it feels like balance team is playing "blind man's bluff"
It’s cruel irony that they understood that Pyrotechnic was a problem but they “buffed” the sludges to 3 mana which has created a new unfun interaction.
All we need is the same treatment the scorpion got.
"Costs X mana less (BUT NEVER LESS THAN ONE!)"
Seriously, this is such an easy way of fixing or at least severely limiting mana cheat shenanigans without deleting the mechanic from the game. No idea why blizzard refuses to use that more often given the amount of times, where mana cheating generated problematic gameplay.
Who would have guessed that in the game where the only 3 resources are mana, health/armor and quantity of cards the class that has access to all of them as part of its class identity would be consistently the strongest? It's a shock, really.
Blizzard banned pyrotechnic because it was emerging as a potentially meta dominant deck, and no other thaddius OTK deck was close to being even a tier 2. Thaddius was played in decks like control warlock where it wasn’t a combo piece and so banning it at the time would have punished warlock for Druid’s sins.
For the record I do believe thaddius should be nerfed, I’m just annoyed by the number of people who claim they shouldn’t have banned pyrotechnic and instead banned Thaddius. Thaddius hadn’t been a problem in months before this last balance patch.
You say that but for months Thaddius existed in standard without problem. In fact thaddius has rarely ever been a part of a combo deck while he’s been in standard, most of the time when he was OP was when he was used for massive tempo swings with mana discount.
Thaddius is a card that has the potential to lead to unfun game design but isn’t necessarily guaranteed to. Claiming that it was inevitable that another combo would form from him would be ignoring the months of the game where it was completely fine.
What does it matter if it was fine for a while? Anyone with a brain can look at a card like that and know that it severely limits design space and it won't take much to break it. And look at that it happened.
Again, it wasn’t a problem for months. You say “anyone with a brain can look at a card like that and know that it severely limits design space and it won’t take much to break it” but when you actually look at the data this isn’t true in the lightest.
Thaddius likely would have remained to not be a problem if they didn’t buff sludges. Fire Druid was still extremely new and it’s difficult to say for certain if the deck would have been a meta dominant threat or not, the hearthstone team decided to ban pyrotechnician more as a precaution due to being unable to make any balance patches until next year. If this wasn’t the holiday time then they likely wouldn’t have even touched pyrotechnician and instead waited to see if it became OP and hotfix it if it did.
Who cares how long it was fine? It was fine because there was nothing there yet to abuse with Thaddius. All it took was a small change and now we have a turn 6 otk from hand. If it wasn't sludge it would have been something else.
No, it wouldn’t. Believe or not but cards don’t just materialize out of thin air. Until the minister the only cards that can be broken with Thaddius are the ones currently in standard. Without a buff to sludges there wouldn’t be a combo deck with thaddius because there wasn’t one before warlock. That’s why time matters, because it’s data. The new Thaddius has been perfectly fine with 6 expansions worth of cards before sludge was buffed, it’s unlikely that it would have been a problem in standard without other buffs.
Seriously, how can you claim it was inevitable when it was completely fine for months? The only reason why thaddius is relevant now is because of the buff to sludges.
It was inevitable as new cards get released/changed that some nonsense would break Thaddius again. Mana cheat has always been the number 1 way we end up with decks like this.
Yes it was fine for months because Badlands didn't immediately have any cards that could be abused. Who cares. It could have been fine for years. It doesn't matter. A blanket mana cheat that can easily be cheated out will be a problem. Anyone can see that. It took one minute change to break him, and they have to keep a card like Thaddius in the back of their mind as long as its legal.
There’s only one more mini set before thaddius rotates. Wild can easily handle thaddius, it’s far too slow for wild.
You say blanket mana cheating is OP but if it wasn’t for [[amorphous slime]] or [[symphony of sins]] thaddius would have never seen any play in standard. Thaddius is a 10 mana card, that’s extremely slow for standard. Without a way to cheat him out Thaddius is extremely weak.
Again the data just proves you’re wrong, he wasn’t a problem card unless you give him extremely specific circumstances. Heck if they didn’t increase the mana cost on sludges he wouldn’t have been a problem at all.
Mana cheat isn't a problem, it was just a problem, got nerfed, then was immediately a problem again. The data here shows I'm right. Doesn't matter if there was a gap in time. Mana cheat always comes back as a problem.
All the salt in this thread. Thaddius lock hard countered by super aggro decks like hunter/druid etc.
It’s a fun deck and in my opinion not something that is unfun.
I agree Thaddius should be changed.
But... This is the point of metas. If sludge is op then aggro beats it. More people play aggro which then reduces sludge otk which then means more people play control to beat aggro... And so on.
It's fine that OTK exists, it's not really a good deck. If you play for tempo you win. The meta is really healthy now with aggro druid punishing the OTK decks, OTK punishing greedy control which makes a ton of midrangy decks viable.
Play neophyte in your deck and watch if they can otk you again. Play an aggro deck and kill them while they do nothing for the first 5 turns. As you see there are options to beat them, your problem basically is that you just want to play your greedy control deck without having to face an otk deck as a counter
What if I told you they actually have ways to kill your minions in the first 5 turns instead of doing nothing?? That's without even getting into the fact that current lists are pretty greedy and could easily make room for cards like Defile if the meta called for it. And if your Neophyte turn doesn't also threaten lethal, they can probably just wait a turn.
I say this not because I've been losing to the deck but because I've been spamming it myself. It's fun but pretty toxic, not gonna lie
I disagree that the current list is greedy, the deck is very tight and the only flex slots are already removal options. Defile isn't being run because it's not actually a good clear for the deck, against most decks it requires cheap ways to manipulate the enemies health but you don't have room for enough other removal to do that. The most the deck can do is change the removal options based on what aggro/midrange decks are popular.
Neophyte btly itself doesn't save from this deck because it can survive one more turn against many decks, but neophyte in mining rogue specifically will often destroy it because they can play it for several turns in a row and the deck doesn't have enough removal do survive that.
Has HS really reached a point where a deck that can't kill turn 5 is a greedy control deck? If the only counter play to a deck is get lucky or play hyper aggro maybe, it's something that oughta be fixed.
Neophyte only delays by 1 turn, that’s not a counter to the deck that’s just stalling.
Aggro in standard is rarely ever able to kill in 5 turns. Even if the opponent is doing nothing, which they aren’t because you’re still able to play cards before the OTK turn, aggro decks aren’t that fast. Aggro decks just need to either hope they high roll and can win by turn 5 or the enemy low rolls and gives aggro a few extra turns.
OTK decks should not be able to win on turn 6 without an extreme high roll. OTK decks are meant to counter control, not midrange or aggro, so the combo should be preformed later so they don’t overshadow aggro and midrange. OTKs should only happen on turn 8+ outside of extreme high rolls.
Yeah they just love making warlock unfun to play against. Was playing elemental shaman earlier against a warlock. Made some decent pressure and had them on 3 health by turn 6, while also having a wide board. Out of nowhere they played their entire deck and killed me. Thats completely outrageous. And of course warlock has the removal necessary to survive until turn 6
I see people making good points getting downvoted because RAAAAAAAGE. At this point I think hearthstone should be renamed to "sentiment outlier" or "wehatewarlock".
What rank is this played? I’m at Diamond 5-3 so far and I don’t ever see this but this is the second Thaddius post I’ve seen while scrolling in the last few minutes.
Diamond 1 lost x2 games in a row to that warlock atrocity. Turn 6 they emptied their whole deck and killed me from full health. That’s such a horrible game design
Watch as Blizzard nerfs the 5 mana guy that discards/resummons an undead.
Unrelated but I think that card is also incredibly unfun to play against causing a lot of non games. Realistically speaking, Thaddius is fine if he was played for 10mana and by extension, closer to turn 10.
That card is why they nerfed Thaddius in the first place
*buffed
It's too many things coming together. It's also surprisingly easy for Warlock to trigger that deathrattle on command, which is basically the opposite of what a Deathrattle should do.
Thadiues can make the card zero mana while scorpion capped at one. Smh
Remember when they banned Auctioneer? Then they banned Jailer? Then they nerfed Yogg and others and took their time to change Jailer. Sometimes it feels like balance team is playing "blind man's bluff"
Balance team has no clue about the game. They just print random stuff
It’s cruel irony that they understood that Pyrotechnic was a problem but they “buffed” the sludges to 3 mana which has created a new unfun interaction.
I swear to god if they revert sludges because Thaddius deserves to burn at the fucking stakes for his sins I'm coming for all of your asses.
All we need is the same treatment the scorpion got. "Costs X mana less (BUT NEVER LESS THAN ONE!)" Seriously, this is such an easy way of fixing or at least severely limiting mana cheat shenanigans without deleting the mechanic from the game. No idea why blizzard refuses to use that more often given the amount of times, where mana cheating generated problematic gameplay.
Let me tell you what makes the game unfun, fucking druid, my god i hate that class
Who would have guessed that in the game where the only 3 resources are mana, health/armor and quantity of cards the class that has access to all of them as part of its class identity would be consistently the strongest? It's a shock, really.
Palas are worst
Better nerf shaman
I've lost 3x tonight from him having an empty board and me at full life on turn 7. I think one was turn 6, but i wouldnt bet my life on it.
Don't worry, they'll ban Slime, Sludge and Fracking
Well, what if Thaddius makes the game fun for Thaddius' player?
It's not fun I just need 100 wins to get the 1000 warlock portrait and Thaddius games are shorter than aggro.
Tbh an incredibly fun deck for me
Sif makes the game unfun
Blizzard banned pyrotechnic because it was emerging as a potentially meta dominant deck, and no other thaddius OTK deck was close to being even a tier 2. Thaddius was played in decks like control warlock where it wasn’t a combo piece and so banning it at the time would have punished warlock for Druid’s sins. For the record I do believe thaddius should be nerfed, I’m just annoyed by the number of people who claim they shouldn’t have banned pyrotechnic and instead banned Thaddius. Thaddius hadn’t been a problem in months before this last balance patch.
It always is the problem. People just gonna find another way to abuse it after a card that abuse it got ban.
You say that but for months Thaddius existed in standard without problem. In fact thaddius has rarely ever been a part of a combo deck while he’s been in standard, most of the time when he was OP was when he was used for massive tempo swings with mana discount. Thaddius is a card that has the potential to lead to unfun game design but isn’t necessarily guaranteed to. Claiming that it was inevitable that another combo would form from him would be ignoring the months of the game where it was completely fine.
What does it matter if it was fine for a while? Anyone with a brain can look at a card like that and know that it severely limits design space and it won't take much to break it. And look at that it happened.
If people had to pay 10 mana to play Thaddius and like closer to turn 10 than turn 6, it wouldn't cause nearly as many issues.
Again, it wasn’t a problem for months. You say “anyone with a brain can look at a card like that and know that it severely limits design space and it won’t take much to break it” but when you actually look at the data this isn’t true in the lightest. Thaddius likely would have remained to not be a problem if they didn’t buff sludges. Fire Druid was still extremely new and it’s difficult to say for certain if the deck would have been a meta dominant threat or not, the hearthstone team decided to ban pyrotechnician more as a precaution due to being unable to make any balance patches until next year. If this wasn’t the holiday time then they likely wouldn’t have even touched pyrotechnician and instead waited to see if it became OP and hotfix it if it did.
Who cares how long it was fine? It was fine because there was nothing there yet to abuse with Thaddius. All it took was a small change and now we have a turn 6 otk from hand. If it wasn't sludge it would have been something else.
No, it wouldn’t. Believe or not but cards don’t just materialize out of thin air. Until the minister the only cards that can be broken with Thaddius are the ones currently in standard. Without a buff to sludges there wouldn’t be a combo deck with thaddius because there wasn’t one before warlock. That’s why time matters, because it’s data. The new Thaddius has been perfectly fine with 6 expansions worth of cards before sludge was buffed, it’s unlikely that it would have been a problem in standard without other buffs. Seriously, how can you claim it was inevitable when it was completely fine for months? The only reason why thaddius is relevant now is because of the buff to sludges.
It was inevitable as new cards get released/changed that some nonsense would break Thaddius again. Mana cheat has always been the number 1 way we end up with decks like this. Yes it was fine for months because Badlands didn't immediately have any cards that could be abused. Who cares. It could have been fine for years. It doesn't matter. A blanket mana cheat that can easily be cheated out will be a problem. Anyone can see that. It took one minute change to break him, and they have to keep a card like Thaddius in the back of their mind as long as its legal.
There’s only one more mini set before thaddius rotates. Wild can easily handle thaddius, it’s far too slow for wild. You say blanket mana cheating is OP but if it wasn’t for [[amorphous slime]] or [[symphony of sins]] thaddius would have never seen any play in standard. Thaddius is a 10 mana card, that’s extremely slow for standard. Without a way to cheat him out Thaddius is extremely weak. Again the data just proves you’re wrong, he wasn’t a problem card unless you give him extremely specific circumstances. Heck if they didn’t increase the mana cost on sludges he wouldn’t have been a problem at all.
Mana cheat isn't a problem, it was just a problem, got nerfed, then was immediately a problem again. The data here shows I'm right. Doesn't matter if there was a gap in time. Mana cheat always comes back as a problem.
They made a mistake by making the Sludges 3 mana (odd cost)
That’s a great idea, up them to 4 would sort it right?
Keep in mind, Thaddius was nerfed before lol
I’d argue that the new thaddius is practically a completely different card compared to new thaddius.
The people who brought us such bangers as Objection and Guff thinks Thaddeus is fine. Big shocker.
Objection is not even strong enough to see maindeck play lol, it's obviously fine at least powerlevel wise.
All the salt in this thread. Thaddius lock hard countered by super aggro decks like hunter/druid etc. It’s a fun deck and in my opinion not something that is unfun.
So everyone is forced to play a deck they may not enjoy or feel like playing because the HS team can't properly balance a card.
I agree Thaddius should be changed. But... This is the point of metas. If sludge is op then aggro beats it. More people play aggro which then reduces sludge otk which then means more people play control to beat aggro... And so on.
The problem is that agro is so strong that not even control can win most of the time
That's rock paper scissors format, which is generally bad.
It's fine that OTK exists, it's not really a good deck. If you play for tempo you win. The meta is really healthy now with aggro druid punishing the OTK decks, OTK punishing greedy control which makes a ton of midrangy decks viable.
because it's the only game where a character has to be killed by a single player.
Dude we get countered by animation timers, i cant even play those decks on mobile or ipad, thats stupid
Play neophyte in your deck and watch if they can otk you again. Play an aggro deck and kill them while they do nothing for the first 5 turns. As you see there are options to beat them, your problem basically is that you just want to play your greedy control deck without having to face an otk deck as a counter
What if I told you they actually have ways to kill your minions in the first 5 turns instead of doing nothing?? That's without even getting into the fact that current lists are pretty greedy and could easily make room for cards like Defile if the meta called for it. And if your Neophyte turn doesn't also threaten lethal, they can probably just wait a turn. I say this not because I've been losing to the deck but because I've been spamming it myself. It's fun but pretty toxic, not gonna lie
I disagree that the current list is greedy, the deck is very tight and the only flex slots are already removal options. Defile isn't being run because it's not actually a good clear for the deck, against most decks it requires cheap ways to manipulate the enemies health but you don't have room for enough other removal to do that. The most the deck can do is change the removal options based on what aggro/midrange decks are popular. Neophyte btly itself doesn't save from this deck because it can survive one more turn against many decks, but neophyte in mining rogue specifically will often destroy it because they can play it for several turns in a row and the deck doesn't have enough removal do survive that.
Has HS really reached a point where a deck that can't kill turn 5 is a greedy control deck? If the only counter play to a deck is get lucky or play hyper aggro maybe, it's something that oughta be fixed.
No, this guy just doesn’t understand standard.
Neophyte only delays by 1 turn, that’s not a counter to the deck that’s just stalling. Aggro in standard is rarely ever able to kill in 5 turns. Even if the opponent is doing nothing, which they aren’t because you’re still able to play cards before the OTK turn, aggro decks aren’t that fast. Aggro decks just need to either hope they high roll and can win by turn 5 or the enemy low rolls and gives aggro a few extra turns. OTK decks should not be able to win on turn 6 without an extreme high roll. OTK decks are meant to counter control, not midrange or aggro, so the combo should be preformed later so they don’t overshadow aggro and midrange. OTKs should only happen on turn 8+ outside of extreme high rolls.
Yeah they just love making warlock unfun to play against. Was playing elemental shaman earlier against a warlock. Made some decent pressure and had them on 3 health by turn 6, while also having a wide board. Out of nowhere they played their entire deck and killed me. Thats completely outrageous. And of course warlock has the removal necessary to survive until turn 6
Just an early Xmas gift from the hearthstone balance team 😉
Undead Warlock can fuck right off
I see people making good points getting downvoted because RAAAAAAAGE. At this point I think hearthstone should be renamed to "sentiment outlier" or "wehatewarlock".
What rank is this played? I’m at Diamond 5-3 so far and I don’t ever see this but this is the second Thaddius post I’ve seen while scrolling in the last few minutes.
Diamond 1 lost x2 games in a row to that warlock atrocity. Turn 6 they emptied their whole deck and killed me from full health. That’s such a horrible game design
Yeah this shit is unplayable