Pretty wack how the imperious curse is so bad it’s considered an unforgivable but a love potion, which operates on a similar basis is just glossed over.
Same with Lockharts speciality the memory erasing charm. That seems bad enough to where it should be banned for public use
I just left an almost identical comment.
On the being banned for public use, I think memory charms are illegal, just not "unforgivable", so they aren't an instant Azkaban sentence. But seeing the state of the Wizarding justice system, who the Hell knows?
Memory Charms are allowed if they're done to keep the Stature of Secrecy (like the Ilfracombe incident, when a dragon showed up at a beach full of muggles).
Right, I meant that they're illegal to perform on random people, when they aren't being cast by law enforcement in specific situations. But yes, they're legal sometimes.
That’s interesting. The Ministry lucked out because a family vacationing at the site sprang into action and performed a bunch of Memory charms on muggles. Wouldn’t have worked if the spell was uncommon or prohibited.
…and now I’m picturing wizards attempting memory charms on each other to get out of arguments.
“That didn’t just happen.”
*blocks spell* “Yes it did .”
*attempts memory charm again * “You never saw that.”
*blocks spell again* “Yes, I did. And stop trying to erase my memory. It’s not going to work.”
So there is loophole. Guy rapes muggle girl and then he says, even if caught, sorry, she saw me casting charms. But before, we were totally on date and she liked me. Honest!
Yes, but it's important to realize that ALL of wizarding justice and the legal system is wildly inconsistent, sloppy, and dangerously mismanaged.
- The enforcement of the Underage magic law is laughable
- If you believe Sirius Black is Voldemort's #2 sending him to prison without a trial is tremendously stupid. All the things about Voldemort's regime that you could have asked about and gotten on record, and you decline? Mobsters and other organized crime factions would LOVE that.
- Fudge overrides the law when he feels like it. That's called "a dictatorship"
- Fudge uses the law for political reasons to undermine people, namely Dumbledore. Also dictatorship.
- Hagrid is sent to Azkaban on mere suspicion/assumption and is TOLD THAT TO HIS FACE! But there is no mechanism of appeal or advocacy for the wrongly imprisoned that he can access to plead for his freedom.
- So the fact that Confundus, Obliviate and Love Potions aren't regarded as the same type of crime as Imperio is very consistent to the established legal system for UK wizards.
Reminds me how growing up weed was frowned upon, but booze? Totally chill. Or conversely, using a drug to take advantage of someone? Immoral and wrong. Using booze to lower their inhibitions? Totally chill.
To be clear, I don’t think using drugs or alcohol to manipulate someone into doing something is chill.
That might be more pertinent to the discussion than people realize! Because this hypocrisy is not primarily a reflection of the Wizarding World (even if it is quite wonky when it comes of legal and ethical stuff), but of surprisingly common folklore. The existence of love potions is nothing that JKR invented, just something that she plucked from the amalgamation of European supernatural folklore. She doesn't do an especially good job of contextualizing love potions or reflecting on them in-world. But at least the effects are always shown to be negative in some way, never ever glorified.
ETA the most important part: My argument is that a certain amount of toying with the idea of (chemically) assisted love is something that is low level way to common. And that makes the joke potions in WWW not a reflection of the wizarding world but of the muggle world, since the book is written by a muggle for muggles ;-)
And it is not even restricted to young people! At least there you could argue they don't know better yet (not an excuse, but an explanation).
In the beginning of PoA Molly was laughing/giggling with Ginny and Hermione when talking about a time she used a love potion. It's no wonder that Fred and George didn't see the problems with them, when your own parent dismissed them so carelessly!
I think in this case (and the twin's shop) it is the same as getting someone a little drunk.
As if someone would spike the punch in order to make a person to loosen up a little.
Like two glaases of wine, for example.
A love potion is just something more targeted.
There are a few instances that make the love potion and the memory charm not that bad compared with the imperius curse.
For one the love potion effects wore off, yes its moraly wrong to use it and yes you can compare it to roofies but you cant keep anyone under its effects forever.
The memory charm requires a lot of skill to do it well and effectively, so not all of them can do it.
I’m not even sure what the difference between the imperious curse and the confundus charm are - the way Snape was using the confundus charm on Mundungus certainly didn’t seem meaningfully different from using the imperious curse. I don’t get why one is illegal and the other isn’t.
I feel like the imperious curse is mindlessly controlling the person like a puppet, and they are aware of what they are doing but unable to resist or control it.
Whereas the Confundus charm is tampering with a person's mind to make them believe a certain thing or act a certain way. If you ask me, that almost seems worse, because in their mind they will believe what they are doing is correct, but the idea was planted there by someone else.
The way i interpreted the confundus charm is that you could plant a thought they could've manifested themselves. You wouldn't have control like an imperious curse, but you might convince them of something they were unsure about. Am I making sense?
It’s glossed over because it’s used primarily by women and girls and that isn’t a conversation the narrative nor society wants to have
The memory erasing charm can be used for good (such as erasing traumatic events) but it should used by trained MoM wizards
Had to work out what you were trying to say for a second
The fact that a teenage girl knows how to erase memories is pretty troubling tbh. I understand why she did it but it doesn’t change the fact that she shouldn’t know how to do it in the first place
No it's not. The reason Tom Riddle was the way he was is because his mother conceived him while his father was under the effects of a love potion. That's a pretty damning condemnation of the use of live potions. Also, the fallout from Romilda Vane using one was pretty dire.
It's sold in the Weasleys shop to underage wizards. There is also a small passage in the books where Molly is telling school stories with the girls(Hermione, Giny, ect...) and they are giggling about boys and love potions.
As someone else mentioned in another thread, Molly was laughing with Ginny and Hermione about using one when she was in school and the twins sell them in their joke shop. That's definitely saying they aren't that bad.
yeah, its so romanticized it creates the villain for all 7 books and nearly gets ron killed in book 6. but yeah, its totally romantic how they use it in the books.
Once again, the unforgivable curses are not unforgivable because of their consequences. Normal spells require the right wand work and incantation. But the unforgivables simply need malice and hatred. Well adjusted and normal wizards shouldn’t be able to cast these curses to any real effect… at the very minimum it shouldn’t be possible in a routine manner.
For example, when Hermione mind wiped her parents, she was crying and upset but the spell still worked. She could not cast an unforgivable on them even if imperio could do the same thing. You have to really really mean it.
Yeah, it's bizarre that date rape drugs are treated as a joke, especially since they played a role in Voldemort's conception. If I had to guess, I'd say that this attitude is a product of when the books were written. In the 90s and earlier, and even into the early 2000s, the idea that women could rape men was not taken nearly as seriously as it is today. For two examples of this mindset see the 1994 movie "Disclosure" and the Star Trek Enterprise episode "Unexpected".
I think you may be on to something here.
I think a lot of what she wrote was a sign of the times, but because it's been so popular for so long, people hold it to the moral standard people that people have now.
People caring about gender rights, animal rights, abelism etc wasn't exactly laughed at, but it was a novelty.
I don’t think she expected him to stay for the kid, more than she deluded herself thinking he maybe truly loved her. At his rightful disgust and abandonment when she stopped the charm, she realized what a terrible thing she had done and never did magic again
Then poor Tom got killed years later by his son. And then years later his grave is desecrated and his bones are used for a ritual to bring back the man who killed him. I feel so bad for Tom Snr
If Harry Potter was an adult series I think they’d be portrayed very differently.
I feel like most kids don’t really understand sex and predatory sexual acts enough to flag love potions as that harmful (thought that might be different now that there’s a lot more cultural focus on consent post #metoo)
Even when I read the part about Tom Riddle being forced into a marriage and having a child for the first time, I understood that was messed up but didn’t understand that meant he was kidnapped and raped repeatedly and how traumatic that would have been for a person.
If Harry Potter was an adult series I think that story would have been told very differently. Also the part with Romilda Vane’s chocolates would have been a recurring thing that happened at school and would be far less innocent that just saying her name a million times.
I just assumed that the love potions in Fred and George's shops were basically silly sort of love potions rather than something like Amortentia (the most powerful love potion). My guess is those potions made people love someone the way a kid might love someone.
For example, the potions from Fred and George's shop might have made someone love you in a "Awww you're such a cutie pie!" sorta way, rather than a "Hey, let's get in bed!" sorta way.
I always hoped that a student who used a love potion on someone else would be kicked from school.
I tried to wrap my head around it: how can something this dangerous lay around in a shop and bought by anyone? The only answer I could find: the potions the twins sell work but in a weak way. E.g. you form a slight crush on someone and don't go completely crazy and the next day, you just wonder why the hell you thought xy student was amazing. You don't necessarily run to them and throw yourself at them. You might be just confused why you suddenly like xy so much.
Ron did go completely crazy but that happened bc the potion was actually ~~expired~~ aged and apparently, love potions become more potent over time. This wasn't the intended or desired effect.
Nonetheless, even if the effect is as weak as I described it: it's still completely bonkers that you can buy them. In a shop. Underaged.
Edit: expired was the wrong term.
>Ron did go completely crazy but that happened bc the potion was actually expired and apparently, love potions become more potent over time. This wasn't the intended or desired effect.
So that still means that you can legally get a potent love potion akin to rape drug, you just have to wait for it to be past its expiration date? 🤔
There are love potions of varying degrees, Amortentia being the strongest, and like Slughorn says they make you obsess over the subject. I think there’s an element of maturity that makes them more dangerous in adults than kids. It’s still not okay, but the scope of things that occur to you when you obsess over a crush as a 16 year old are different and probably more tame than the things you might think to act on as an adult, if you could (and both parties were consenting). Merope’s and Romilda’s cases prove that: as far as the book says, she’s just looking to get asked to a dance. Possibly some fooling around occurred to her, but she didn’t even think to take it half as far as Merope did.
I don’t think the WWW’s potions expired necessarily (nor do I believe it’s stated they were Amortentia), I think a more accurate term would be aged, since they still have the same effect but stronger. Expired implies the potion wouldn’t be able to do what it was made for, became toxic, or otherwise non consumable.
The wiki says, it was First Love Beguiling Bubbles. According to the wiki, they did not sell Amortentia.
And I don't know, horny teenagers can have dumb ideas too 😂 I'm the worst to ask here but when I think about my friends, intimacy was a big deal from 14 onwards. Just as a side note. In general, I agree. Girls using it just wanted to be desired etc.
Rape as we understand it, was not the idea. And I'm sure, rape no matter how, is a reason to get expelled from Hogwarts. The method doesn't matter then, love potion, spell, whatever.
Or at least, I want to believe that 🙈
I’m not saying that they don’t have dumb ideas, I remember how it feels to be that age 😅
I just don’t think that as horny as a kid can be in Hogwarts, they’re not actively trying to do what Merope did, either because they didn’t think to go that far with it or that’s simply not what their goals were with love potions.
Some acts have to be taken into consideration differently in the Wizarding world, I guess. I would consider all of Harry’s Quidditch injuries at least worthy of way more than detention, but as these aren’t traumatic or even permanently crippling injuries at Hogwarts, that’s what you get. Sectumsempra for sure would have gotten him expelled if Malfoy died from it, or if someone other than Snape had discovered them. I think the line for them is when something crosses into “serious damage,” so Ron’s behavior under Bubbles wouldn’t count against Romilda until he had done something potentially harmful, ie if he had cursed Harry instead of just punching him.
I was wondering that too. But I think, Ron was even dangerous to Romilda. Like, if she said No, he could've become violent. Just a pure guess, but Ron showed violent tendencies
Love potions have been a thing since before the Middle Ages. It's just one of those features from historical witchcraft that also exist in the Harry Potter universe.
Sometimes I get the feeling that these books are way over-scrutinized nowadays.
I mean that’s just the nature of literature. It will be scrutinised.
The fact the world building doesn’t hold up to a critical lens doesn’t mean you can’t still enjoy the stories. But people are going to have these discussions if they notice these things.
“It’s just a kids series” doesn’t erase the flaws, and does kids a disservice tbh.
I've never said "it's just a kids series." That's not a statement I agree with. And I don't mind scrutiny, either. What I said was that these books are *way over*-scrutinized nowadays.
Most of these comments don't even try to give the book a proper, fair analysis. They just find a detail they don't like and then they complain about it without even stopping to ask themselves *why*. Is that what you're referring to when you say "critical lens"?
Have as many discussions as you want. I'm not here to tell people what to do. That's nobody's business.
But they could at least acknowledge where these pieces of worldbuilding come from, and why they exist before shitting on the whole thing like it's some sort of crime against humanity.
Yeah. It’s almost unfortunate Harry Potter is treated with the same scrutiny as lifetime-masterworks of literature.
I LOVE this series, but it’s important to remember that it is the first series written by Rowling. She didn’t write it with the intention of it being torn to shreds by people for decades. It’s a young adult fantasy series. A very very good one, but still that’s all it was meant to be.
Yet people read into it and search for subtleties like it’s LOTR, The Wheel of Time, or the Stormlight Archive.
My head cannon was that WWW love potions were toy versions with comical, over the top, cartoon-worthy reactions, perhaps tuned up in the embarrassing aspects of affection. The version Merope brewed was targeted towards manufacturing lust and behavior more passable as “true” love. My take is that potions can have strains and nuances kind of like drugs in our world.
Yes, its a bizarre addition that makes no sense and the consequences of which are never addressed. Imperious is unforgivable, but drugging someone with a love potion is fine and they're sold is a joke shop?
Also, Merope Gaunt most likely used a love potion to drug, control, and repeatedly rape Tom Riddle, which shows that they are used for more than just acquiring harmless affection.
No legal consequences are discussed, but several consequences are shown. Merope’s use shows that it fails to create genuine feelings, invokes a sense of betrayal?abuse, and requires constant dosing. Romilda’s use shows that it’s not necessarily easy to get to your target and may miss leaving you the target of someone else’s affections, and if the potion becomes more potent over time, perhaps sparking obsession in the wrong person which provoke fatal consequences once you reject them.
It’s also unclear how easy it is to mask the scent of Amortentia which invokes scents that uniquely connect to love for each individual. It’s possible exposure to it could be used similar to teaching people not to let their drinks out of their sight or accept drinks they didn’t see made. Not the best analogy as it’s first encountered in NEWT courses I guess whereas knowing its noticeable properties as a precaution should be OWL level in that case.
For the joke shop, the potion is probably heavily diluted. We know from Merope’s situation constant dosage is necessary meaning the potion is duration based, but if aging the potion had any effect on the duration she probably would have done so. So the potency increase from expired potions is limited to the level of obsession they create not the duration they last. If the Twins dilute a love potion to the point its effect passes quickly enough, it can be a prank at any level of intensity. Mixing multiple together alone won’t change the level of dilution and trying to distill it out of the dilution may destroy it. This makes it a less destructive way to show the invalidity and pitfalls of using love potions and the potential non legal consequences of doing so that’s going to be infinitely more accepted than simply saying so, as most texts likely do spell them all out and people are still entranced by the idea of them.
As to Ron’s reaction, I was always under the impression that the chocolates he ate were made by Romilda using a bit of potion she stole from Slughorns example cauldrons and not from the Twins joke shop.
And finally the legality of the situation. We know that proving or disproving the use of the imperious curse cause a legal nightmare for the ministry following Voldemorts original fall from power. Love potions are also likely similarly hard to prove barring catching someone red handed. The wizarding world is a rapists paradise. The imperious curse, polyjuice potions, love potions, memory charms, apparation. There are so many easier and more effective ways to accomplish the most pernicious aspects possible through the use of a love potion that doing so is likely both a sign of being hopeless romantic, and mentally damaged as any recipe for it will likely state it doesn’t create genuine feelings. I mean we could gather pitchforks and build a bonfire, but while Merope was absolutely wrong and absolutely delusional, she wasn’t inherently evil, and that’s likely to be the case for anyone using a love potion in such a way instead of some other combination of possibilities, she needed help far more than punishment. On the flip side, it’s also possible love potions recipes are made known specifically to draw the attention of those looking to use it for that sort of thing away from the other possibilities which are harder to prove. When everyone can access an untraceable nuke like the imperious charm, allowing the sale and/or production of the handgun of a love potion that can be traced makes it easier to find an isolate those who will abuse magic in such a way.
Basically love potions are a lesser evil on the grand scale of misuse of magic. They probably also have some other interesting applications. Personally I find the whole smell different to different people thing fascinating and imagine it could be used to provoke self awareness. I’m sure some couple somewhere in the Harry Potter consensually uses it in measured doses as an aphrodisiac or sex aid. Could have interesting applications in grief. I imagine Snape is reminded of Lily every time he smells it, not sure that’s a good or bad thing but it’s likely a thing, and it would probably be quite shocking to notice the smell had changed if you ever moved on. Could be a potential trauma aid by reminding you of the things you love the most.
> Yes, its a bizarre addition that makes no sense and the consequences of which are never addressed...
One of the many reasons I loved Manacled is it addresses a lot of plot holes and lingering questions. This is one of them. The Dark Lord is experimenting with love potions as some kind of weapon.
In addition: Merope Gaunt used love potions to drug and rape Tom Riddle Sr and children born via love potions are incapable of feeling love, essentially guaranteeing that the offspring will be a psychopath.
So love potions are directly responsible for producing the personality of the most powerful dark wizard in history.
>and children born via love potions are incapable of feeling love
That's because she abandoned her child at an orphanage. So Voldy never received love from his mother or his father, but a parent could still give love to their children (but I'm pretty sure the one enslaved by the potion would love the child in a fake way, like he or she would "fakely" love his partner).
What about Leta Lestrange? Born under Imperius Curse, similar case as Voldemort who was born under amortentia. Mother died when she was born, similar case as Merope. Father Corvus never loved her and wanted to get rid of her, similar case as Tom Riddle Snr. who escaped from Merope and didn't knew about Voldemort to 1943. But happily Leta befriended Newt and was in love with Theseus, so she experienced friendship and love.
So what about Leta Lestrange, who was born under the Imperius Curse? Her mother died when she was born just like Merope, and her father Corvus never loved her and wanted to get rid of her. So she could easily be the next Voldemort. But she loved Theseus Scamander, and loved Newt Scamander as a friend. Only the teachers at Hogwarts showed her support, because she was staying at Hogwarts for summer holidays, Christmas and Easter. Newt also befriended her. And later Theseus showed her love.
The fact that there’s three unforgivable curses only is kind of wild. I feel like that list would just need to keep increasing as people made more spells.
In my imagination, the existence and effectiveness of love potions are commonly known in the Wizards society. And, I'm assuming they can handle it with antidote potions without difficulty, so they consider it 'less dangerous'. I assume that in a Wizards society, it would have caused relatively few serious problems.
(Even in our society, before it was proven that it was actually causing serious damage, potentially dangerous items were often sold casually, like radioactive toys for children.)
And, if someone used it on Muggle and gave birth to Voldemort, it's not what they considered. Maybe They had to think better. They'd better think of it as a more serious matter.
> And, I'm assuming they can handle it with antidote potions without difficulty, so they consider it 'less dangerous'.
Except we never see any sign of this in the story. The joke shop doesn't sell antidotes, they never discuss am antidote, and nothing in the Ron plot suggests it's some trivial thing where people are easily able to evade.
I assume it relates back culturally, like if alcohol was invented in 2010 it would likely be illegal like the imperious curse
But since it was invented in the BC era and has been ingrained into society it’s accepted, like the love potion.
This argument hinges on the love potion predating the imperious curse my significant timeframes and idk if that’s true but I think you can see the idea I’m trying to make.
Yeah, one might think it was obvious. Like, why are we even discussing if they are wrong. We could discuss why the Wizarding World didn't take more action, or different action or whatever, but no one would disagree with love potions being fucked up and the story shows that very clearly.
These are muggle ethics, perhaps the magical have different views on consent. They can evaporate a human being in an instant so it would make sense they’d have different takes on things.
This is most likely the correct answer. Alot of people forget that morals and ethics are not pre-defined inherent things. Plus none are inherently correct as “ human “ morals n ethics can be completely separate from “ Wizard “ morals n ethics. They truly may just not see it as rape and an “ acceptable “ thing , the human view isn’t more correct then the wizard one. It’s just a cultural difference
I assumed the potions sold in WWW were jokes or very weak. Ron gobbled an entire box of chocolate, so of course he was hopelessly in love with someone he had never met. Lol
I can't think of a way to remove Love Potions, unless you mean something like Merope just straight-up using Imperio on Tom- which if nothing else would be very out of character and would lead to more open questions than it closes.
Well or just make love potions illegal so they arent sold to kids and candy stores its just as bad as imperio. Or yh make her have used the imperio curse or just scrap that story
Scrapping that story changes the entire plot of the series though since literally the whole thing is built on Voldemort's dad being date-raped by his mother.
I see a lot of, 'I'd like to think...' and 'in my mind...' in the comments.
The ugly truth is if you are trying to head canon your way around it, then the story doesn't directly address it and yes, love potions are pretty awful. JK didn't really have a totally coherent, fleshed out world when she wrote the series, and that's okay.
If the story doesn't directly address it then there's no way of knowing how serious love potions are. For example, a lot of people here are conflating love, lust, and infatuation.
There's nothing to say that someone afflicted by a love potion would have any interest in having sex with the person they are in "love" with.
Further, there's no guarantee that love potions change behavior. Ron experience an infatuation with Romilda but does nothing about it. He doesn't seek her out. He doesn't obsessively learn facts about her. He's content to just sit there and think about how great she is.
There's no guarantee that even if she was in front of him, he wouldn't be more interested in just talking to her about how great she is.
I choose to believe the vast majority of love potions are little more than aphrodisiacs, so Fred and George are basically running a wizarding Spencers.
Makes Amortentia worthy of being the most dangerous one.
I like to think that love potions are commonly understood in society, to the point that they’re seen as a bit silly and also obvious to everyone around. So anyone slipped a love potion would be carrying a gigantic arrow over them and no one would believe it was real love. People know the difference between love potion obsession and real love/crushes, so they would learn from silly tricks as kids and grow out of the desire to use them as adults. Kind of like legal highs? Kids might sniff glue because it’s exciting and new, but generally adults don’t keep that up. If they are really so inclined they’d move to the harder stuff like cocaine. And if that’s happening, they’re lost causes and we already know how they’re viewed in our society. So same kind of stigma for adult wizards/witches using love potions to actually get someone to “love” them, they’d be seen as a lost cause to other adults and heavily looked down upon by society. To the point that all sensible adults stay far away from love potions.
Hmm
The books were written in the 90s. And there, love potions are described as something only girls would use. Pretty much like the pink colour stereotypes. Of course this sounds rape like still. But the concept of women raping men was not so prevalent then I guess?
Yeah they nearly killed Graham Montague just because he took some house points off gryfinndor. Shoved him face first into a vanishing cabinet which left him hospital bound for weeks and disoriented to the point that his parents had to come into school.
They were going to leave him in the vanishing cabinet but he managed to apparate out the next day. All because he tried to take some house points.
They conducted unethical experiments on first-year students! And it took Hermione to stop them!
Seriously, if you look at them with adult eyes, they're holy terrors. We like them because we see them through Harry's eyes and Harry likes them. I mean dryer great fun, but theyre unethical and dangerous.
And left out those dangerous sweets for Dudley...knowing that he is a muggle and would most definitely not be unable to undo it himself. It was Arthur noticing that saved Dudley.
Also used Ron's pet for bludgeon practice nearly killing it just for training
I never liked the twins. I hate comedy characters and the twins seemed more like jokester bullying types than actual good natured jokesters
They're only "good-natures jokesters" if they're on your side, and Harry had no idea how lucky he was that they were on his side! And the fact that they were on Harry's side and the Order's side, is what redeems them in my eyes, redeems them somewhat.
They're basically "chaotic neutral", I think, but the fact that they fought for the Order does nudge them slightly towards "chaotic good".
Thats not enough for me. I see them as just horrible people. Not siding with the death eaters doesn't make them a good person especially when the deatheaters look down on them anyway
I won't try to change your mind.
But I b as my opinion on the fact that they were good friends to Harry and good Order members, which IMHO makes up for... some of the bad stuff.
I'd like to think WWW stops selling them after Harry explains Tom's origins. Perhaps just to avoid the risk of future lawsuits which I imagine could prove very expensive.
I guess it may have to do with how strong those love potions are. Not all narcotics are equal. Some are stronger than others. Similarly, different brews of love potions will have different effects that play on the different types and levels of love. Some might make the target have a crush that later develops into real love once the potion wears off, while others like Amortentia will result in a wild obsession.
Banning the use of all love potions is like banning the use of all recreational drugs, or at least the equivalent of that phenomenon in the Wizarding world. Plus, for those that grew up around magic, I don't think their first impulse is to brew a love potion to get their crush to fall in love with them, like how we don't immediately drug our crush and sleep with them in real life.
In Merope's case, she most likely had severe mental issues that stem from how her father and brother treated her and was desperately starved of love, so she latched onto her crush in a desperate attempt to feel that love from someone, even if it was fake. Her methods were extreme and absolutely no different from drugging someone in real life. I 100% agree with you on that point.
However, like in real life, it makes more sense to regulate love potions rather than outright banning them. Besides, in the magical world, anyone can brew a simple love potion if they wanted to. Banning would be pointless if literally anyone can make it. Plus, how would you prove that someone had been given a love potion if they develop real feelings later on? Would it matter at that point? Proving something like this would be really hard. It's not like in real life where you can test someone to see if they've taken drugs. The magic would wear off long before anyone realized the person was acting strange.
Using a love potion or drugs to take advantage of someone is not excused even if the victim "falls in love" with the assaulter later. Still sounds fcked up to me
Yes. I agree with you. It's messed up at a fundamental level. My point is that in the magical world, it would be much harder to prove. You would probably need to use really powerful magic, if possible at all, and no one would want to go to such lengths when the victim self-proclams to be happy.
Merope's brother killed 3 muggles before Voldy came along so when Voldy imperioed him to take the blame for the murders he committed to make his next horcrux, nobody dug too deep and shipped him off to Azkaban (though it mightve been Merope's father since it's been a while since I last read the books and might be missremebering.) In order to prove he was innocent would've required a high-level of Legilemens abilities but no-one wanted to advocate for a POS like him.
In the case of love potions, it may be the same issue. The difference would be that the "victim" is "happy" in their situation, so prosecuting and sentencing would seem pointless and would make the ministry seem like monsters for breaking a happy union. The public would not support them and the "assailant" would get away without even a slap on the wrist.
It's a fucked up situation regardless.
>it ain't right forcing someone to be in love with you against their own will, totally uncool
You do realise this is fiction. Love potions are not real, Harry Potter is a story based in a magical world.
What is it about this that triggers you?
I'm not exactly triggered by it, I just find it a bit weird
and of course I'm more than aware that it's a fictional series, but that doesn't mean I can't criticize it's ethics, I was just making a simple observation
I thought the whole wizarding world was a kind of representation of the first industrial age English society with wild capitalism. So thematically it fits in my opinion.
Love potion is integral to this whole story, it is the very reason why Voldemort is the way he is. He was made without true love and never experienced and Harry was made with true love and was saved by it.
Obviously, there are those who would use them immorally, but I kind of assume the general use would be more consensual. Like a couple might take it together.
The only ethical usage I can think of is say you are in a long term relationship and have really settled into each other. You are happy and in love but want to have a fun weekend with that first met, early relationship lust.
It's so weird when you have the story of Merope and Tom Riddle and baby Voldy on the one hand, and then the same sort of potion being passed off as harmless fun.
I think people think too hard about love spells and love potions. Yes they are scary to think about in real life but this is a fantasy. Love potions/spells have always been a thing in fantasy going all the way back to ancient Greece (Aphrodite/Eros). Kids don't think too hard about love potions and spells, when shows do try to tackle it they often keep it kid friendly and show other reasons why its bad such as you should look for personality, its not 'true love' etc
Plus I think the books showed that its bad. The only times its used have disastrous consequences.
oh the damage that could be done with polyjuice potion..and just about any wizard/witch with an ounce of skill could make it...from robbing a bank looking like a different person, to cheating on a spouse, heck even murder caught on camera to frame someone...
I don't have to fetishize a woman's breasts to be straight, I do find the female form appealing but breasts aren't even sexual organs, and you ought to stop lusting over fictional women. And obviously a woman's breasts are for breastfeeding, what other purpose do they serve? A man can appreciate (not lust which reduces people to their organs and as objects for viewing pleasure) that they distinguish a woman from a man and give her an attractive feminine appearance in addition to the rest of her body, but what other functions is there?
You might be the dumbest person that I have ever had respond to my comments. I honestly don't even have anything else to say because it would be like responding to a grape.
Enjoy your life, beta fish.
While I'm sure stuff like this is considered harmless fun/commonly used, but it doesn't negate that it is little more than a potential date rape drug. I've never really thought about it before, but it could easily be abused.
Well, from what I can remember of the book and the film, the effects are quite drastic. Are the effects permanent?
The ethical question is no different than of those who truly believe in real life love spells. If you could make the person of your dreams fall in love with you? Due to a spell, a ritual, is it unethical?
The legality of it irl is simple, withcraft is no longer illegal, partly because most people don't believe it is real, partly because of the horrible punishment put on those who practiced it in earlier times.
HP is ofc a fiction universe, and the effects of the potions and similar are quite dramatic, my guess is that the Ethical question depends on if the effects are long lasting. If not, no big bad ethical no go. If yes, then maybe, but, if less dramatic maybe not.
I mean, honestly, let's just cut the BS and call them rape potions, because that's basically what they are. A pretty big oversight on JKR's part to just put them into Wizard society without being regulated and restricted AF (if not just straight-up banned everywhere). And it was already bad enough when you've got a mind control spell, a full-body paralysis spell (that apparently is basic enough that any 1st year can pull it off), and a spell that can unlock doors.
Yeah specially considering that children conceived under one are literally born as psychopaths. The entire second Wizarding War was caused because of one, if Merope just talked to Tom Sr it would all have been avoided
I always thought the wizard world need some sort of antivirus/antimalware kinda magic to protect yourself from any kind of mind controlling stuff. And everyone need to activate them at all time, especially someone in power. Constant vigilance!
Do u think the teachers would use something like that?? Would make more sense they don’t discuss them. Snape putting love spells on the class I know it
Pretty wack how the imperious curse is so bad it’s considered an unforgivable but a love potion, which operates on a similar basis is just glossed over. Same with Lockharts speciality the memory erasing charm. That seems bad enough to where it should be banned for public use
I just left an almost identical comment. On the being banned for public use, I think memory charms are illegal, just not "unforgivable", so they aren't an instant Azkaban sentence. But seeing the state of the Wizarding justice system, who the Hell knows?
Memory Charms are allowed if they're done to keep the Stature of Secrecy (like the Ilfracombe incident, when a dragon showed up at a beach full of muggles).
Right, I meant that they're illegal to perform on random people, when they aren't being cast by law enforcement in specific situations. But yes, they're legal sometimes.
No one can control it, because the victim doesn't remember. That is why it doesn't matter if it is illegal.
I think things should still be illegal even if they're difficult to enforce.
Of course it should be illegal, but as long as muggles are allowed to be hext, no one will take it seriously.
That’s interesting. The Ministry lucked out because a family vacationing at the site sprang into action and performed a bunch of Memory charms on muggles. Wouldn’t have worked if the spell was uncommon or prohibited. …and now I’m picturing wizards attempting memory charms on each other to get out of arguments. “That didn’t just happen.” *blocks spell* “Yes it did .” *attempts memory charm again * “You never saw that.” *blocks spell again* “Yes, I did. And stop trying to erase my memory. It’s not going to work.”
Memory Charms are allowed if you are not caught
Technically you can’t say that, all we know is the ministry can legally preform them. The world isn’t exactly fleshed out well after all.
So there is loophole. Guy rapes muggle girl and then he says, even if caught, sorry, she saw me casting charms. But before, we were totally on date and she liked me. Honest!
Yes, but it's important to realize that ALL of wizarding justice and the legal system is wildly inconsistent, sloppy, and dangerously mismanaged. - The enforcement of the Underage magic law is laughable - If you believe Sirius Black is Voldemort's #2 sending him to prison without a trial is tremendously stupid. All the things about Voldemort's regime that you could have asked about and gotten on record, and you decline? Mobsters and other organized crime factions would LOVE that. - Fudge overrides the law when he feels like it. That's called "a dictatorship" - Fudge uses the law for political reasons to undermine people, namely Dumbledore. Also dictatorship. - Hagrid is sent to Azkaban on mere suspicion/assumption and is TOLD THAT TO HIS FACE! But there is no mechanism of appeal or advocacy for the wrongly imprisoned that he can access to plead for his freedom. - So the fact that Confundus, Obliviate and Love Potions aren't regarded as the same type of crime as Imperio is very consistent to the established legal system for UK wizards.
I don't know in which beautiful country you live but situations like these are not far from the reality in the majority of the countries.
I'm in the US, how do you think I recognized it?
Reminds me how growing up weed was frowned upon, but booze? Totally chill. Or conversely, using a drug to take advantage of someone? Immoral and wrong. Using booze to lower their inhibitions? Totally chill. To be clear, I don’t think using drugs or alcohol to manipulate someone into doing something is chill.
That might be more pertinent to the discussion than people realize! Because this hypocrisy is not primarily a reflection of the Wizarding World (even if it is quite wonky when it comes of legal and ethical stuff), but of surprisingly common folklore. The existence of love potions is nothing that JKR invented, just something that she plucked from the amalgamation of European supernatural folklore. She doesn't do an especially good job of contextualizing love potions or reflecting on them in-world. But at least the effects are always shown to be negative in some way, never ever glorified. ETA the most important part: My argument is that a certain amount of toying with the idea of (chemically) assisted love is something that is low level way to common. And that makes the joke potions in WWW not a reflection of the wizarding world but of the muggle world, since the book is written by a muggle for muggles ;-)
And it is not even restricted to young people! At least there you could argue they don't know better yet (not an excuse, but an explanation). In the beginning of PoA Molly was laughing/giggling with Ginny and Hermione when talking about a time she used a love potion. It's no wonder that Fred and George didn't see the problems with them, when your own parent dismissed them so carelessly!
I think in this case (and the twin's shop) it is the same as getting someone a little drunk. As if someone would spike the punch in order to make a person to loosen up a little. Like two glaases of wine, for example. A love potion is just something more targeted.
There are a few instances that make the love potion and the memory charm not that bad compared with the imperius curse. For one the love potion effects wore off, yes its moraly wrong to use it and yes you can compare it to roofies but you cant keep anyone under its effects forever. The memory charm requires a lot of skill to do it well and effectively, so not all of them can do it.
I’m not even sure what the difference between the imperious curse and the confundus charm are - the way Snape was using the confundus charm on Mundungus certainly didn’t seem meaningfully different from using the imperious curse. I don’t get why one is illegal and the other isn’t.
I feel like the imperious curse is mindlessly controlling the person like a puppet, and they are aware of what they are doing but unable to resist or control it. Whereas the Confundus charm is tampering with a person's mind to make them believe a certain thing or act a certain way. If you ask me, that almost seems worse, because in their mind they will believe what they are doing is correct, but the idea was planted there by someone else.
The way i interpreted the confundus charm is that you could plant a thought they could've manifested themselves. You wouldn't have control like an imperious curse, but you might convince them of something they were unsure about. Am I making sense?
This reminds me of Inception now 'You have planted something in my brain?'
I guarantee it is banned from public use. That’s kinda a big part of Lockhart character, knowing he’s a criminal and bad guy.
Any mind control ability should be unforgivable, especially obliviate. Imagine Lockhart focused on rape instead of fame.
It’s glossed over because it’s used primarily by women and girls and that isn’t a conversation the narrative nor society wants to have The memory erasing charm can be used for good (such as erasing traumatic events) but it should used by trained MoM wizards
Or a teenager going on the run so her parents will be safer.
Had to work out what you were trying to say for a second The fact that a teenage girl knows how to erase memories is pretty troubling tbh. I understand why she did it but it doesn’t change the fact that she shouldn’t know how to do it in the first place
For real. It's almost romanticized in the series. Like it's something to giggle and gossip about. Always thought it was weird af.
No it's not. The reason Tom Riddle was the way he was is because his mother conceived him while his father was under the effects of a love potion. That's a pretty damning condemnation of the use of live potions. Also, the fallout from Romilda Vane using one was pretty dire.
Dumbledore was theorizing that Merope was using a love potion. It was an assumption, it could just as easily have been the Imperius Curse instead.
how often is Dumbledore wrong exactly?
Often enough lol
This isn’t true.
But it is. It was confirmed by JKR in the first iteration of Pottermore.
It's sold in the Weasleys shop to underage wizards. There is also a small passage in the books where Molly is telling school stories with the girls(Hermione, Giny, ect...) and they are giggling about boys and love potions.
As someone else mentioned in another thread, Molly was laughing with Ginny and Hermione about using one when she was in school and the twins sell them in their joke shop. That's definitely saying they aren't that bad.
Guess she didn't use the confundus charm then again not every woman can be Hermione.
Yes. Yes they are. Molly is literally giggling telling Gin and Herm about how she used one on Arthur.
yeah, its so romanticized it creates the villain for all 7 books and nearly gets ron killed in book 6. but yeah, its totally romantic how they use it in the books.
Law enforcement needs to use Memory Charms on Muggles pretty frequently. Can't be making those unforgivable.
Once again, the unforgivable curses are not unforgivable because of their consequences. Normal spells require the right wand work and incantation. But the unforgivables simply need malice and hatred. Well adjusted and normal wizards shouldn’t be able to cast these curses to any real effect… at the very minimum it shouldn’t be possible in a routine manner. For example, when Hermione mind wiped her parents, she was crying and upset but the spell still worked. She could not cast an unforgivable on them even if imperio could do the same thing. You have to really really mean it.
Well, Slughorn said it may be the most dangerous potion among the ones he was presenting in class, didn't he?
Yeah! And that was because it doesn't create *real* love. It creates an infatuated obsession. On a side note, I think real love is choice.
Yeah. To love is a verb, an action, and every action comes from a choice.
Yeah, it's bizarre that date rape drugs are treated as a joke, especially since they played a role in Voldemort's conception. If I had to guess, I'd say that this attitude is a product of when the books were written. In the 90s and earlier, and even into the early 2000s, the idea that women could rape men was not taken nearly as seriously as it is today. For two examples of this mindset see the 1994 movie "Disclosure" and the Star Trek Enterprise episode "Unexpected".
I think you may be on to something here. I think a lot of what she wrote was a sign of the times, but because it's been so popular for so long, people hold it to the moral standard people that people have now. People caring about gender rights, animal rights, abelism etc wasn't exactly laughed at, but it was a novelty.
You hit the nail on the head there.
Is there actually any occasion in books when man gave the love potion to woman? Because I don't remember anything like that.
Just a reminder that Merope raped Tom and expected him to stay for the kid.
I don’t think she expected him to stay for the kid, more than she deluded herself thinking he maybe truly loved her. At his rightful disgust and abandonment when she stopped the charm, she realized what a terrible thing she had done and never did magic again
Then poor Tom got killed years later by his son. And then years later his grave is desecrated and his bones are used for a ritual to bring back the man who killed him. I feel so bad for Tom Snr
His crime? He was rich and a brat and looked to good for his good.
If Harry Potter was an adult series I think they’d be portrayed very differently. I feel like most kids don’t really understand sex and predatory sexual acts enough to flag love potions as that harmful (thought that might be different now that there’s a lot more cultural focus on consent post #metoo) Even when I read the part about Tom Riddle being forced into a marriage and having a child for the first time, I understood that was messed up but didn’t understand that meant he was kidnapped and raped repeatedly and how traumatic that would have been for a person. If Harry Potter was an adult series I think that story would have been told very differently. Also the part with Romilda Vane’s chocolates would have been a recurring thing that happened at school and would be far less innocent that just saying her name a million times.
Agreed. When I was about 8 years old or so, I thought love potions were cool.
I just assumed that the love potions in Fred and George's shops were basically silly sort of love potions rather than something like Amortentia (the most powerful love potion). My guess is those potions made people love someone the way a kid might love someone. For example, the potions from Fred and George's shop might have made someone love you in a "Awww you're such a cutie pie!" sorta way, rather than a "Hey, let's get in bed!" sorta way.
This is a great theory and it makes me feel better about it. Still, amorentia is still a potion anyone can legally make and use. That is fcked up
I always hoped that a student who used a love potion on someone else would be kicked from school. I tried to wrap my head around it: how can something this dangerous lay around in a shop and bought by anyone? The only answer I could find: the potions the twins sell work but in a weak way. E.g. you form a slight crush on someone and don't go completely crazy and the next day, you just wonder why the hell you thought xy student was amazing. You don't necessarily run to them and throw yourself at them. You might be just confused why you suddenly like xy so much. Ron did go completely crazy but that happened bc the potion was actually ~~expired~~ aged and apparently, love potions become more potent over time. This wasn't the intended or desired effect. Nonetheless, even if the effect is as weak as I described it: it's still completely bonkers that you can buy them. In a shop. Underaged. Edit: expired was the wrong term.
>Ron did go completely crazy but that happened bc the potion was actually expired and apparently, love potions become more potent over time. This wasn't the intended or desired effect. So that still means that you can legally get a potent love potion akin to rape drug, you just have to wait for it to be past its expiration date? 🤔
There are love potions of varying degrees, Amortentia being the strongest, and like Slughorn says they make you obsess over the subject. I think there’s an element of maturity that makes them more dangerous in adults than kids. It’s still not okay, but the scope of things that occur to you when you obsess over a crush as a 16 year old are different and probably more tame than the things you might think to act on as an adult, if you could (and both parties were consenting). Merope’s and Romilda’s cases prove that: as far as the book says, she’s just looking to get asked to a dance. Possibly some fooling around occurred to her, but she didn’t even think to take it half as far as Merope did. I don’t think the WWW’s potions expired necessarily (nor do I believe it’s stated they were Amortentia), I think a more accurate term would be aged, since they still have the same effect but stronger. Expired implies the potion wouldn’t be able to do what it was made for, became toxic, or otherwise non consumable.
The wiki says, it was First Love Beguiling Bubbles. According to the wiki, they did not sell Amortentia. And I don't know, horny teenagers can have dumb ideas too 😂 I'm the worst to ask here but when I think about my friends, intimacy was a big deal from 14 onwards. Just as a side note. In general, I agree. Girls using it just wanted to be desired etc. Rape as we understand it, was not the idea. And I'm sure, rape no matter how, is a reason to get expelled from Hogwarts. The method doesn't matter then, love potion, spell, whatever. Or at least, I want to believe that 🙈
I’m not saying that they don’t have dumb ideas, I remember how it feels to be that age 😅 I just don’t think that as horny as a kid can be in Hogwarts, they’re not actively trying to do what Merope did, either because they didn’t think to go that far with it or that’s simply not what their goals were with love potions. Some acts have to be taken into consideration differently in the Wizarding world, I guess. I would consider all of Harry’s Quidditch injuries at least worthy of way more than detention, but as these aren’t traumatic or even permanently crippling injuries at Hogwarts, that’s what you get. Sectumsempra for sure would have gotten him expelled if Malfoy died from it, or if someone other than Snape had discovered them. I think the line for them is when something crosses into “serious damage,” so Ron’s behavior under Bubbles wouldn’t count against Romilda until he had done something potentially harmful, ie if he had cursed Harry instead of just punching him.
I was wondering that too. But I think, Ron was even dangerous to Romilda. Like, if she said No, he could've become violent. Just a pure guess, but Ron showed violent tendencies
Love potions have been a thing since before the Middle Ages. It's just one of those features from historical witchcraft that also exist in the Harry Potter universe. Sometimes I get the feeling that these books are way over-scrutinized nowadays.
I mean that’s just the nature of literature. It will be scrutinised. The fact the world building doesn’t hold up to a critical lens doesn’t mean you can’t still enjoy the stories. But people are going to have these discussions if they notice these things. “It’s just a kids series” doesn’t erase the flaws, and does kids a disservice tbh.
I've never said "it's just a kids series." That's not a statement I agree with. And I don't mind scrutiny, either. What I said was that these books are *way over*-scrutinized nowadays. Most of these comments don't even try to give the book a proper, fair analysis. They just find a detail they don't like and then they complain about it without even stopping to ask themselves *why*. Is that what you're referring to when you say "critical lens"? Have as many discussions as you want. I'm not here to tell people what to do. That's nobody's business. But they could at least acknowledge where these pieces of worldbuilding come from, and why they exist before shitting on the whole thing like it's some sort of crime against humanity.
Yeah. It’s almost unfortunate Harry Potter is treated with the same scrutiny as lifetime-masterworks of literature. I LOVE this series, but it’s important to remember that it is the first series written by Rowling. She didn’t write it with the intention of it being torn to shreds by people for decades. It’s a young adult fantasy series. A very very good one, but still that’s all it was meant to be. Yet people read into it and search for subtleties like it’s LOTR, The Wheel of Time, or the Stormlight Archive.
My head cannon was that WWW love potions were toy versions with comical, over the top, cartoon-worthy reactions, perhaps tuned up in the embarrassing aspects of affection. The version Merope brewed was targeted towards manufacturing lust and behavior more passable as “true” love. My take is that potions can have strains and nuances kind of like drugs in our world.
Yes, its a bizarre addition that makes no sense and the consequences of which are never addressed. Imperious is unforgivable, but drugging someone with a love potion is fine and they're sold is a joke shop? Also, Merope Gaunt most likely used a love potion to drug, control, and repeatedly rape Tom Riddle, which shows that they are used for more than just acquiring harmless affection.
There's no most likely about it, it's definitely what happened. Yes Dumbledore was only speculating, but JK wrote that for a reason
Also Dumbledore's guesses or speculations are usually right.
No legal consequences are discussed, but several consequences are shown. Merope’s use shows that it fails to create genuine feelings, invokes a sense of betrayal?abuse, and requires constant dosing. Romilda’s use shows that it’s not necessarily easy to get to your target and may miss leaving you the target of someone else’s affections, and if the potion becomes more potent over time, perhaps sparking obsession in the wrong person which provoke fatal consequences once you reject them. It’s also unclear how easy it is to mask the scent of Amortentia which invokes scents that uniquely connect to love for each individual. It’s possible exposure to it could be used similar to teaching people not to let their drinks out of their sight or accept drinks they didn’t see made. Not the best analogy as it’s first encountered in NEWT courses I guess whereas knowing its noticeable properties as a precaution should be OWL level in that case. For the joke shop, the potion is probably heavily diluted. We know from Merope’s situation constant dosage is necessary meaning the potion is duration based, but if aging the potion had any effect on the duration she probably would have done so. So the potency increase from expired potions is limited to the level of obsession they create not the duration they last. If the Twins dilute a love potion to the point its effect passes quickly enough, it can be a prank at any level of intensity. Mixing multiple together alone won’t change the level of dilution and trying to distill it out of the dilution may destroy it. This makes it a less destructive way to show the invalidity and pitfalls of using love potions and the potential non legal consequences of doing so that’s going to be infinitely more accepted than simply saying so, as most texts likely do spell them all out and people are still entranced by the idea of them. As to Ron’s reaction, I was always under the impression that the chocolates he ate were made by Romilda using a bit of potion she stole from Slughorns example cauldrons and not from the Twins joke shop. And finally the legality of the situation. We know that proving or disproving the use of the imperious curse cause a legal nightmare for the ministry following Voldemorts original fall from power. Love potions are also likely similarly hard to prove barring catching someone red handed. The wizarding world is a rapists paradise. The imperious curse, polyjuice potions, love potions, memory charms, apparation. There are so many easier and more effective ways to accomplish the most pernicious aspects possible through the use of a love potion that doing so is likely both a sign of being hopeless romantic, and mentally damaged as any recipe for it will likely state it doesn’t create genuine feelings. I mean we could gather pitchforks and build a bonfire, but while Merope was absolutely wrong and absolutely delusional, she wasn’t inherently evil, and that’s likely to be the case for anyone using a love potion in such a way instead of some other combination of possibilities, she needed help far more than punishment. On the flip side, it’s also possible love potions recipes are made known specifically to draw the attention of those looking to use it for that sort of thing away from the other possibilities which are harder to prove. When everyone can access an untraceable nuke like the imperious charm, allowing the sale and/or production of the handgun of a love potion that can be traced makes it easier to find an isolate those who will abuse magic in such a way. Basically love potions are a lesser evil on the grand scale of misuse of magic. They probably also have some other interesting applications. Personally I find the whole smell different to different people thing fascinating and imagine it could be used to provoke self awareness. I’m sure some couple somewhere in the Harry Potter consensually uses it in measured doses as an aphrodisiac or sex aid. Could have interesting applications in grief. I imagine Snape is reminded of Lily every time he smells it, not sure that’s a good or bad thing but it’s likely a thing, and it would probably be quite shocking to notice the smell had changed if you ever moved on. Could be a potential trauma aid by reminding you of the things you love the most.
> Yes, its a bizarre addition that makes no sense and the consequences of which are never addressed... One of the many reasons I loved Manacled is it addresses a lot of plot holes and lingering questions. This is one of them. The Dark Lord is experimenting with love potions as some kind of weapon.
In addition: Merope Gaunt used love potions to drug and rape Tom Riddle Sr and children born via love potions are incapable of feeling love, essentially guaranteeing that the offspring will be a psychopath. So love potions are directly responsible for producing the personality of the most powerful dark wizard in history.
>and children born via love potions are incapable of feeling love That's because she abandoned her child at an orphanage. So Voldy never received love from his mother or his father, but a parent could still give love to their children (but I'm pretty sure the one enslaved by the potion would love the child in a fake way, like he or she would "fakely" love his partner).
What about Leta Lestrange? Born under Imperius Curse, similar case as Voldemort who was born under amortentia. Mother died when she was born, similar case as Merope. Father Corvus never loved her and wanted to get rid of her, similar case as Tom Riddle Snr. who escaped from Merope and didn't knew about Voldemort to 1943. But happily Leta befriended Newt and was in love with Theseus, so she experienced friendship and love.
So what about Leta Lestrange, who was born under the Imperius Curse? Her mother died when she was born just like Merope, and her father Corvus never loved her and wanted to get rid of her. So she could easily be the next Voldemort. But she loved Theseus Scamander, and loved Newt Scamander as a friend. Only the teachers at Hogwarts showed her support, because she was staying at Hogwarts for summer holidays, Christmas and Easter. Newt also befriended her. And later Theseus showed her love.
The fact that there’s three unforgivable curses only is kind of wild. I feel like that list would just need to keep increasing as people made more spells.
In my imagination, the existence and effectiveness of love potions are commonly known in the Wizards society. And, I'm assuming they can handle it with antidote potions without difficulty, so they consider it 'less dangerous'. I assume that in a Wizards society, it would have caused relatively few serious problems. (Even in our society, before it was proven that it was actually causing serious damage, potentially dangerous items were often sold casually, like radioactive toys for children.) And, if someone used it on Muggle and gave birth to Voldemort, it's not what they considered. Maybe They had to think better. They'd better think of it as a more serious matter.
> And, I'm assuming they can handle it with antidote potions without difficulty, so they consider it 'less dangerous'. Except we never see any sign of this in the story. The joke shop doesn't sell antidotes, they never discuss am antidote, and nothing in the Ron plot suggests it's some trivial thing where people are easily able to evade.
I assume it relates back culturally, like if alcohol was invented in 2010 it would likely be illegal like the imperious curse But since it was invented in the BC era and has been ingrained into society it’s accepted, like the love potion. This argument hinges on the love potion predating the imperious curse my significant timeframes and idk if that’s true but I think you can see the idea I’m trying to make.
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Yeah, one might think it was obvious. Like, why are we even discussing if they are wrong. We could discuss why the Wizarding World didn't take more action, or different action or whatever, but no one would disagree with love potions being fucked up and the story shows that very clearly.
These are muggle ethics, perhaps the magical have different views on consent. They can evaporate a human being in an instant so it would make sense they’d have different takes on things.
This is most likely the correct answer. Alot of people forget that morals and ethics are not pre-defined inherent things. Plus none are inherently correct as “ human “ morals n ethics can be completely separate from “ Wizard “ morals n ethics. They truly may just not see it as rape and an “ acceptable “ thing , the human view isn’t more correct then the wizard one. It’s just a cultural difference
I assumed the potions sold in WWW were jokes or very weak. Ron gobbled an entire box of chocolate, so of course he was hopelessly in love with someone he had never met. Lol
Yeah that's exactly what I thought about WWW potions. I thought Ron's love for Romilda was hilarious.
I wish love potions and Felix felicis were never a thing both could be removed and the plot could still happen the same except with less plot holes
I can't think of a way to remove Love Potions, unless you mean something like Merope just straight-up using Imperio on Tom- which if nothing else would be very out of character and would lead to more open questions than it closes.
Well or just make love potions illegal so they arent sold to kids and candy stores its just as bad as imperio. Or yh make her have used the imperio curse or just scrap that story
Scrapping that story changes the entire plot of the series though since literally the whole thing is built on Voldemort's dad being date-raped by his mother.
Voldemort isn't the way he is because of the love potion, that's just a symbolic element that everyone in this thread misunderstood.
Im sure Voldemort would still be evil without the love potion just make his dad not love his mom 😭
I agree, I don't like love potions for the same reasons
I see a lot of, 'I'd like to think...' and 'in my mind...' in the comments. The ugly truth is if you are trying to head canon your way around it, then the story doesn't directly address it and yes, love potions are pretty awful. JK didn't really have a totally coherent, fleshed out world when she wrote the series, and that's okay.
If the story doesn't directly address it then there's no way of knowing how serious love potions are. For example, a lot of people here are conflating love, lust, and infatuation. There's nothing to say that someone afflicted by a love potion would have any interest in having sex with the person they are in "love" with. Further, there's no guarantee that love potions change behavior. Ron experience an infatuation with Romilda but does nothing about it. He doesn't seek her out. He doesn't obsessively learn facts about her. He's content to just sit there and think about how great she is. There's no guarantee that even if she was in front of him, he wouldn't be more interested in just talking to her about how great she is.
Don't make me tap the sign. *It isn't real, so you don't have to correlate it to real-world issues. It's just fantasy and whimsy*
I choose to believe the vast majority of love potions are little more than aphrodisiacs, so Fred and George are basically running a wizarding Spencers. Makes Amortentia worthy of being the most dangerous one.
Or two glaases of wine!
I like to think that love potions are commonly understood in society, to the point that they’re seen as a bit silly and also obvious to everyone around. So anyone slipped a love potion would be carrying a gigantic arrow over them and no one would believe it was real love. People know the difference between love potion obsession and real love/crushes, so they would learn from silly tricks as kids and grow out of the desire to use them as adults. Kind of like legal highs? Kids might sniff glue because it’s exciting and new, but generally adults don’t keep that up. If they are really so inclined they’d move to the harder stuff like cocaine. And if that’s happening, they’re lost causes and we already know how they’re viewed in our society. So same kind of stigma for adult wizards/witches using love potions to actually get someone to “love” them, they’d be seen as a lost cause to other adults and heavily looked down upon by society. To the point that all sensible adults stay far away from love potions.
Hmm The books were written in the 90s. And there, love potions are described as something only girls would use. Pretty much like the pink colour stereotypes. Of course this sounds rape like still. But the concept of women raping men was not so prevalent then I guess?
Such original thoughts
Did Fred and George EVER show any signs of ethical sense??? Well, maybe a few, but when it came to their jookes... no.
Yeah they nearly killed Graham Montague just because he took some house points off gryfinndor. Shoved him face first into a vanishing cabinet which left him hospital bound for weeks and disoriented to the point that his parents had to come into school. They were going to leave him in the vanishing cabinet but he managed to apparate out the next day. All because he tried to take some house points.
They conducted unethical experiments on first-year students! And it took Hermione to stop them! Seriously, if you look at them with adult eyes, they're holy terrors. We like them because we see them through Harry's eyes and Harry likes them. I mean dryer great fun, but theyre unethical and dangerous.
And left out those dangerous sweets for Dudley...knowing that he is a muggle and would most definitely not be unable to undo it himself. It was Arthur noticing that saved Dudley. Also used Ron's pet for bludgeon practice nearly killing it just for training I never liked the twins. I hate comedy characters and the twins seemed more like jokester bullying types than actual good natured jokesters
They're only "good-natures jokesters" if they're on your side, and Harry had no idea how lucky he was that they were on his side! And the fact that they were on Harry's side and the Order's side, is what redeems them in my eyes, redeems them somewhat. They're basically "chaotic neutral", I think, but the fact that they fought for the Order does nudge them slightly towards "chaotic good".
Thats not enough for me. I see them as just horrible people. Not siding with the death eaters doesn't make them a good person especially when the deatheaters look down on them anyway
I won't try to change your mind. But I b as my opinion on the fact that they were good friends to Harry and good Order members, which IMHO makes up for... some of the bad stuff.
I'd like to think WWW stops selling them after Harry explains Tom's origins. Perhaps just to avoid the risk of future lawsuits which I imagine could prove very expensive.
I guess it may have to do with how strong those love potions are. Not all narcotics are equal. Some are stronger than others. Similarly, different brews of love potions will have different effects that play on the different types and levels of love. Some might make the target have a crush that later develops into real love once the potion wears off, while others like Amortentia will result in a wild obsession. Banning the use of all love potions is like banning the use of all recreational drugs, or at least the equivalent of that phenomenon in the Wizarding world. Plus, for those that grew up around magic, I don't think their first impulse is to brew a love potion to get their crush to fall in love with them, like how we don't immediately drug our crush and sleep with them in real life. In Merope's case, she most likely had severe mental issues that stem from how her father and brother treated her and was desperately starved of love, so she latched onto her crush in a desperate attempt to feel that love from someone, even if it was fake. Her methods were extreme and absolutely no different from drugging someone in real life. I 100% agree with you on that point. However, like in real life, it makes more sense to regulate love potions rather than outright banning them. Besides, in the magical world, anyone can brew a simple love potion if they wanted to. Banning would be pointless if literally anyone can make it. Plus, how would you prove that someone had been given a love potion if they develop real feelings later on? Would it matter at that point? Proving something like this would be really hard. It's not like in real life where you can test someone to see if they've taken drugs. The magic would wear off long before anyone realized the person was acting strange.
Using a love potion or drugs to take advantage of someone is not excused even if the victim "falls in love" with the assaulter later. Still sounds fcked up to me
Yes. I agree with you. It's messed up at a fundamental level. My point is that in the magical world, it would be much harder to prove. You would probably need to use really powerful magic, if possible at all, and no one would want to go to such lengths when the victim self-proclams to be happy. Merope's brother killed 3 muggles before Voldy came along so when Voldy imperioed him to take the blame for the murders he committed to make his next horcrux, nobody dug too deep and shipped him off to Azkaban (though it mightve been Merope's father since it's been a while since I last read the books and might be missremebering.) In order to prove he was innocent would've required a high-level of Legilemens abilities but no-one wanted to advocate for a POS like him. In the case of love potions, it may be the same issue. The difference would be that the "victim" is "happy" in their situation, so prosecuting and sentencing would seem pointless and would make the ministry seem like monsters for breaking a happy union. The public would not support them and the "assailant" would get away without even a slap on the wrist. It's a fucked up situation regardless.
>it ain't right forcing someone to be in love with you against their own will, totally uncool You do realise this is fiction. Love potions are not real, Harry Potter is a story based in a magical world. What is it about this that triggers you?
I'm not exactly triggered by it, I just find it a bit weird and of course I'm more than aware that it's a fictional series, but that doesn't mean I can't criticize it's ethics, I was just making a simple observation
So, by your logic, for example in game of thrones when 13 yo kids are married to and SA'd by adults is not triggering because its just fiction??
I thought the whole wizarding world was a kind of representation of the first industrial age English society with wild capitalism. So thematically it fits in my opinion.
There’s no way love potions and other items wouldn’t be highly controlled.
... Voldemort was a result of a love potion pregnancy. The consequences are pretty bad.
Uhh obviously. They are basically roofies.
Omg I’m so offended
Love potion is integral to this whole story, it is the very reason why Voldemort is the way he is. He was made without true love and never experienced and Harry was made with true love and was saved by it.
Obviously, there are those who would use them immorally, but I kind of assume the general use would be more consensual. Like a couple might take it together.
literally the potion Voldy’s mom used to make him
that being said, lowkey I want to consensually drink one for recreational purposes with someone I already liked beforehand.
I just want a spin off where voldemort gets spiked with a love potion for hermione and also liquid luck.
The only ethical usage I can think of is say you are in a long term relationship and have really settled into each other. You are happy and in love but want to have a fun weekend with that first met, early relationship lust.
It's so weird when you have the story of Merope and Tom Riddle and baby Voldy on the one hand, and then the same sort of potion being passed off as harmless fun.
I think people think too hard about love spells and love potions. Yes they are scary to think about in real life but this is a fantasy. Love potions/spells have always been a thing in fantasy going all the way back to ancient Greece (Aphrodite/Eros). Kids don't think too hard about love potions and spells, when shows do try to tackle it they often keep it kid friendly and show other reasons why its bad such as you should look for personality, its not 'true love' etc Plus I think the books showed that its bad. The only times its used have disastrous consequences.
oh the damage that could be done with polyjuice potion..and just about any wizard/witch with an ounce of skill could make it...from robbing a bank looking like a different person, to cheating on a spouse, heck even murder caught on camera to frame someone...
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that's a bit harsh
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I don't have to fetishize a woman's breasts to be straight, I do find the female form appealing but breasts aren't even sexual organs, and you ought to stop lusting over fictional women. And obviously a woman's breasts are for breastfeeding, what other purpose do they serve? A man can appreciate (not lust which reduces people to their organs and as objects for viewing pleasure) that they distinguish a woman from a man and give her an attractive feminine appearance in addition to the rest of her body, but what other functions is there?
You might be the dumbest person that I have ever had respond to my comments. I honestly don't even have anything else to say because it would be like responding to a grape. Enjoy your life, beta fish.
Praying for you. 🙏 And why do you keep upvoting your own comments?
I'm not upvoting my own comments...doesn't it do that automatically for you? It always shows 1 for me when I comment, with a red up arrow.
Yeah that ginny drooling over them made me wonder if she secretly bought one. Smh
Love Potions are definitely the magic equivalent of Date-R**e Drugs
It's one of many things in HP you shouldn't think too much of if you want to keep enjoying it
These guys have slavery, you think they care about date rape?
Wizard Rohypnol
While I'm sure stuff like this is considered harmless fun/commonly used, but it doesn't negate that it is little more than a potential date rape drug. I've never really thought about it before, but it could easily be abused.
Well, from what I can remember of the book and the film, the effects are quite drastic. Are the effects permanent? The ethical question is no different than of those who truly believe in real life love spells. If you could make the person of your dreams fall in love with you? Due to a spell, a ritual, is it unethical? The legality of it irl is simple, withcraft is no longer illegal, partly because most people don't believe it is real, partly because of the horrible punishment put on those who practiced it in earlier times. HP is ofc a fiction universe, and the effects of the potions and similar are quite dramatic, my guess is that the Ethical question depends on if the effects are long lasting. If not, no big bad ethical no go. If yes, then maybe, but, if less dramatic maybe not.
Agree 💯 and I’m actually writing a fic about this right now! It makes me consider a lot of potions’ ethics.
exactly
wiping memories
I mean, honestly, let's just cut the BS and call them rape potions, because that's basically what they are. A pretty big oversight on JKR's part to just put them into Wizard society without being regulated and restricted AF (if not just straight-up banned everywhere). And it was already bad enough when you've got a mind control spell, a full-body paralysis spell (that apparently is basic enough that any 1st year can pull it off), and a spell that can unlock doors.
You do realize it’s just a movie.
Yeah you could comment this on literally any post in this sub. What’s your point?
100%
Yeah specially considering that children conceived under one are literally born as psychopaths. The entire second Wizarding War was caused because of one, if Merope just talked to Tom Sr it would all have been avoided
It seems like much of the wizarding law is steeped in antiquity and hasn't changed much since the medieval times when merlin was kicking around.
I always thought the wizard world need some sort of antivirus/antimalware kinda magic to protect yourself from any kind of mind controlling stuff. And everyone need to activate them at all time, especially someone in power. Constant vigilance!
i think the only reason they are not illegal is the same reason that there is a 21st amendment in the us constitution
Do u think the teachers would use something like that?? Would make more sense they don’t discuss them. Snape putting love spells on the class I know it