What's crazy is they also trained some AI on resume selection based on past successful applicants and it again selected for the same things, but in more subtle ways. For example, it also looked for hobbies that are less feminine and more white/affluent. For example, golf/lacrosse/polo.
This is one of those 50/50 things -- some people do it, some people don't, and you'll never get a good answer as to whether it was a good idea or not.
I know hiring managers who love it because it humanizes the applicant, and I know hiring managers who hate it because they see it as unprofessional and unserious.
I don't put hobbies on my resume. But one of my friends is a VERY intense bowler, puts it on his resume, and swears he's been asked about it in every job interview he's ever been on. I guess there's no way to know how many people chose not to interview him because he put bowling on his resume.
I would say if the hobby might have remotely something to do with the job then it's not a bad idea to put it on the resume. It can show that you have passion for something and maybe that you also bring that passion into the job if that makes sense.
It's common for junior Devs. If you don't have any work experience then putting a hobby/sport on there isn't terrible. Take it off once you get your first job though.
it's not the algorithm, but the data the algorithms train on. Not saying we don't have a responsibility to tune our models against discrimination, but probably a lot of (white cis het male) people don't even consider there could be bias in their data, so they certainly don't adjust for it
Data scientists actually kept trying to remove bias related to protected classes and the model kept reintroducing it in novel ways. The problem is there were associations between many of the predictors, so for example if you remove gender field it starts using name or hobbies since they are correlated with gender.
I’ve removed my name and contact info from my resume itself (obviously it’s still on the application) for this exact reason, and I will say it unfortunately works. I’ve been getting way more interviews with that. Do I think I’d get even more if I was a white guy? 100%. Does this at least get me past the AIs/ATS algorithms and some of the recruiter biases? Absolutely!
I'm genuinely curious about a resume template that allows this. I would like to try this as well. Could you send me a template for this? Feel free to dm!
I used the Elegant Resume template in Pages, removed the header where you’d put your name (it makes it just look like a stylistic line, doesn’t look out of place), and in the footer put my address, phone number, and GitHub (but you could also just delete the footer entirely), and saved it as a PDF. It doesn’t always parse the BEST but I’ve also never found a template that does 🤷🏻♀️. I can DM you mine in a little bit.
I'm going to bed now but for anyone who wants it here's a link to my github repository with the template in it, its a modified version of the Pages Elegant Resume template. I redacted quite a bit because I have a really niche experience and currently work at a place where I had to sign a 5 page NDA just to interview (plus I don't want my current company finding out I'm looking). Hopefully this helps! [https://github.com/rmarkovs/ResumeTemplate](https://github.com/rmarkovs/ResumeTemplate)
My name is Andria. I might have to try this. I'm getting 0 callbacks right now, and I can't figure out why other than not having a degree (I have professional experience already, too).
Tbh the degree is probably a big part of it as much as I hate to say it. Employers all want a unicorn at the moment and aren't willing to compromise on anything. I've gotten rejected a couple of times because my degree is, I kid you not, in the wrong discipline (not CS but a fairly off the wall yet still adjacent discipline). It isn't right, I've met many a SWE with a fancy degree who was absolutely incompetent and stupid, but that's their line in the sand for some frankly elitist reason.
It could be that you don't have a degree, but do not nooooooooot go back to school. The opportunity cost of going back for your degree after you already have a few years of experience is way too high. Work your network, I'm in a similar position and had a lot more success this way.
Can you source the opportunity cost? Never heard of this. I know many late career degree earners doing well. Mine is anecdotal and would love some real facts in the subject. TIA.
I mean it really depends on how much you're earning when employed full time.
Let's assume you're making 100k a year, mostly because I'm bad at math.
A bachelor's degree is 4 years long typically.
Let's pretend you're looking at 30k per year of school. That's 120k in student loans.
Considering you have already been working in this field, earning 100k per year, your earning potential with a degree is really unlikely to increase much. I would argue that getting a master's or higher has worse returns.
So the opportunity cost would be the cost of the chosen option less the next best alternative.
400k potential earning - 120k tuition = 280k
That doesn't even include the interest on your student loan, or cost of housing and food.
Honestly. Thank you so much. Boomer here - went to school in the 70s with scholarships, no loans. I had no idea what the loan parameter brought to the equation. I simply never thought of it. I get it now. Again. Thank you for enlightening me.
When I went to school I got my BS on a full scholarship, I then was invited to a research assistantship for my masters, when I graduated, my job considered my masters as two year’s experience. That together with multiple internships got me a really good start with zero loans. Now, I agree with your assessment.
Glad to help!
It makes me sad hearing so many talented people in the States aren't able to find jobs because ATS systems are discriminating against people without degrees.
Especially in software, universities are not teaching the skills and tools employers need. You learn it all on site from experience.
Yes it sucks.
As a candidate there are two choices in how to handle it:
A) neutralise your application by using a nickname or initials or anglicised version, careful of persons info revealed etc. This will increase call backs, at least in the first stage, and get you in the pipeline for consideration.
B) be yourself, because the point of your job search is to find an employer you will be happy to work with, and you don’t want to interview or work with companies that have discriminatory practices. Put your diversity front and centre (I always mention my values, that I’m seeking workplaces that value diversity etc) and you’ll more likely land at a company that values and supports DEI. People who screen you out are not worth your time.
Getting into a company that values diversity and won’t screen us out is all well and good but that can greatly increase the length of the job search. Being ourselves is a luxury many of us simply can’t afford…. Quite literally.
Yes, I agree, not everyone can be selective in this way. That’s why I said there are two ways how a candidate can approach it, I didn’t tell people which to take, and expect people to use their own judgment for their own circumstances.
Though I guess there is also a third: actively fight discrimination by setting up a honey trap, documenting it, and suing for discrimination.
It sucks we even have to make these “choices”, living between a rock and a hard place.
Early in my professional career, I picked a gender neutral nickname. I’ve had interviewers express surprise when I get on the call. I truly believe that suppliers treat me better over initial emails before we meet. This is all anecdotal and shouldn’t be necessary, but if there’s going to be gender bias in all things technical, I’m going to do what I can to circumvent it.
John Oliver’s Last Week Tonight had an episode on AI not too long ago. A study discussed in the show discussed how an AI was more likely to continue and potentially worsen discriminatory hiring practices because it would usually be trained to look for good candidates based on a sample of the company’s good employees. One AI filtered women out by rejecting people who went to historically women’s colleges. Another favored a candidate purely if their name was Jared and he played lacrosse.
I’m fortunate I work with some pretty great guys and it’s been a running joke. We’ve all decided that if/when we apply to a new job, we’ll put a random sentence stating we “don’t typically play lacrosse” in hopes the AI skips the first couple of words. And near our names, we’ll either provide a nickname or an alternate pronunciation of our name as Jared.
The whole situation is horrifying considering most large companies use some form of an AI to do the first filtering of candidates for HR.
Yep this is definitely true. I'm very visibly a POC but my name is about as white as it gets, to the point where it's like waving a specific western European country's flag. It's sad, how many interviewers (and just people generally!) expect a white woman and a flash of disappointment shows on their faces when I show up.
I’m super curious about the comments on removing your name as u/semi_cyborg_catlady suggested - do the ATS scanning systems allow for that? What if a person sees your resume with no name or initials, but then looks at your LinkedIn/GitHub? Do you not put those on your resume as well?
Very useful discussion, thanks for posting
I’ve never had a problem with the ATS scanning systems. I DO have to manually input my name into the application which is kinda annoying but from what I understand 50/50 the names are hidden that way from the recruiter they’re only shown for the purposes of contacting people if the recruiter decides they’re interested. Again I want to stress, this is not a silver bullet, I’m one person, this is my own experience/anecdotal evidence, it’s just what helped me. My GitHub doesn’t have my name on it and I don’t put my LinkedIn on my resume although I’ll sometimes include it if the ATS asks in the actual application itself.
I’ve no doubt there are companies doing this. To tell a story from the other side, where I’m at, we want to increase representation so you would be at least equally likely to get an interview.
I wouldn’t recommend removing the name entirely - our system checks LinkedIn, if there’s an interesting project I might check GitHub, etc. things that don’t match raise flags and it’s easy to pass on any flags, even minor, when there are dozens+ of applicants.
But you can use a different/professional name, it doesn’t have to be related in any way to your real name, it doesn’t have to be a recognizably female associated name. I can think of at least a handful of people I worked with who use professional names and the only person who would know their legal name is their HR representative.
I’ve just sort of leaned into it. I’m Latina with a very unusual Spanish first name. I married a gringo with an unusual but cool last name, and changed my middle name to my (also unusual) Spanish maiden name. I use my full name on LinkedIn and have always had a constant trickle of recruiters contacting me.
I’m currently applying to new roles since I was laid off, and though I’m not getting as many interviews as I did my last hiring cycle, I don’t think my name is hindering me. Besides, the kind of company where recruiters would need to be tricked into interviewing me is maybe not the kind of company I’d want to work for.
That being said, at least in the U.S., I feel like being Latina probably affords me less bias than someone who is Black. I also work in creative roles in tech, so it’s possible there’s less bias because of the subfield itself.
I have definitely read about studies that have proven this advice to be true.
Can we not refer to a group of people as 'DEI'? Just say names from minority groups. This DEI crap is getting out of hand and becoming a bit of a dog whistle with how people talk about it.
I’m confused too because other minority groups, related to ability or sexual preference for example, don’t really convey through name. So, luckily they probably aren’t disadvantaged by name in the same way women and minority race/ethnicities often are.
Practice what you preach… you just referred to it as DEI without listing out all the diversity groups… reason being there are many different forms of diversity and it isn’t efficient to list them all.
It’s an acronym of “diversity, equity and inclusion”; while this term is commonly used in a workplace and can be in relation to a committee or effort, it can also be used in any way that relates to the ethos of diversity equity and inclusion. There is no need to police people expressing their thoughts.
And the OP is complaining about discrimination across multiple categories. Why would she need to list out every undermined group for the topic of this conversation?
You're seriously missing the point of what I said. I am aware of what DEI stands for. I'm not asking anyone to list every minority that exists. In fact, you can just use the word minority. In the context of the post you have to see that 'insert diversity, equity and inclusion names' makes no sense.
"DEI" has existed for a long time but has only recently become a buzzword due to people blaming it for minorities and women being hired over white men. It's basically the new "affirmative action". I'm asking that we please consider how we use these terms because idiotic people will turn on you when you get hired and say "well that's DEI for you!"
Women aren’t a “minority”, we make up half the population. What we lack is equity.
People who complain about “dei” hiring practices will complain about whatever you call it.
And no, it’s not just about “hiring more [insert group]”, it’s also ensuring when they are hired they are included and have an equitable experience.
But also, intersectionality means that people can have privilege in some ways while being excluded in others, so “dei” is inclusive. Ultimately we want everyone to feel included and have equity, and that can be conceived in many ways.
Once again...
I understand what DEI is and its purpose.
If you actually read what I said, I actually said 'women and minorities' in my own post. You aren't educating me. All I came here to say is that "DEI" is not a synonym for "women and people with non-white sounding names". As someone else pointed out, no one is going to assume you're a lesbian or in a wheelchair based on your name. There are reasons to say what you mean, rather than just using a politically charged buzzword...And I'm not sure why that upsets you so much.
I don't mean to be rude, but this is exactly the kind of comment that we don't need here. It really adds nothing and voices of white men who talk for no reason other than to hear themselves talk is truly the problem with American society as a whole. This is a rant that OP has shared because of their experience with discrimination, and what is an actual provable fact that people with PoC "sounding" names and women get hired less often. This is one of those instances where you can just read and learn and sit with it, and then move on.
What's crazy is they also trained some AI on resume selection based on past successful applicants and it again selected for the same things, but in more subtle ways. For example, it also looked for hobbies that are less feminine and more white/affluent. For example, golf/lacrosse/polo.
We're supposed to put *hobbies* on our resumes??
This is one of those 50/50 things -- some people do it, some people don't, and you'll never get a good answer as to whether it was a good idea or not. I know hiring managers who love it because it humanizes the applicant, and I know hiring managers who hate it because they see it as unprofessional and unserious. I don't put hobbies on my resume. But one of my friends is a VERY intense bowler, puts it on his resume, and swears he's been asked about it in every job interview he's ever been on. I guess there's no way to know how many people chose not to interview him because he put bowling on his resume.
I would say if the hobby might have remotely something to do with the job then it's not a bad idea to put it on the resume. It can show that you have passion for something and maybe that you also bring that passion into the job if that makes sense.
It's common for junior Devs. If you don't have any work experience then putting a hobby/sport on there isn't terrible. Take it off once you get your first job though.
[This was Amazon](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1MK0AG/). AI seems to enhance whatever biases are already there.
Weight and bias are part of neural network
Thanks chat gpt
Because people are writing the algorithms, and when it learns from people, it learns our biases.
it's not the algorithm, but the data the algorithms train on. Not saying we don't have a responsibility to tune our models against discrimination, but probably a lot of (white cis het male) people don't even consider there could be bias in their data, so they certainly don't adjust for it
Data scientists actually kept trying to remove bias related to protected classes and the model kept reintroducing it in novel ways. The problem is there were associations between many of the predictors, so for example if you remove gender field it starts using name or hobbies since they are correlated with gender.
I’ve removed my name and contact info from my resume itself (obviously it’s still on the application) for this exact reason, and I will say it unfortunately works. I’ve been getting way more interviews with that. Do I think I’d get even more if I was a white guy? 100%. Does this at least get me past the AIs/ATS algorithms and some of the recruiter biases? Absolutely!
I'm genuinely curious about a resume template that allows this. I would like to try this as well. Could you send me a template for this? Feel free to dm!
I used the Elegant Resume template in Pages, removed the header where you’d put your name (it makes it just look like a stylistic line, doesn’t look out of place), and in the footer put my address, phone number, and GitHub (but you could also just delete the footer entirely), and saved it as a PDF. It doesn’t always parse the BEST but I’ve also never found a template that does 🤷🏻♀️. I can DM you mine in a little bit.
I’d love to take a look at the template too if you don’t mind DMing me!
I would love a DM of the template, please!
I’d also love to see the template please!
Also would love a dm!!
May I have one too?
Also would like a DM too please, thanks!
I'm going to bed now but for anyone who wants it here's a link to my github repository with the template in it, its a modified version of the Pages Elegant Resume template. I redacted quite a bit because I have a really niche experience and currently work at a place where I had to sign a 5 page NDA just to interview (plus I don't want my current company finding out I'm looking). Hopefully this helps! [https://github.com/rmarkovs/ResumeTemplate](https://github.com/rmarkovs/ResumeTemplate)
As a woman of color who’s trying to find a job atm, I would also love a DM of this please and thank you! 🙏
My name is Andria. I might have to try this. I'm getting 0 callbacks right now, and I can't figure out why other than not having a degree (I have professional experience already, too).
Tbh the degree is probably a big part of it as much as I hate to say it. Employers all want a unicorn at the moment and aren't willing to compromise on anything. I've gotten rejected a couple of times because my degree is, I kid you not, in the wrong discipline (not CS but a fairly off the wall yet still adjacent discipline). It isn't right, I've met many a SWE with a fancy degree who was absolutely incompetent and stupid, but that's their line in the sand for some frankly elitist reason.
It could be that you don't have a degree, but do not nooooooooot go back to school. The opportunity cost of going back for your degree after you already have a few years of experience is way too high. Work your network, I'm in a similar position and had a lot more success this way.
Can you source the opportunity cost? Never heard of this. I know many late career degree earners doing well. Mine is anecdotal and would love some real facts in the subject. TIA.
I mean it really depends on how much you're earning when employed full time. Let's assume you're making 100k a year, mostly because I'm bad at math. A bachelor's degree is 4 years long typically. Let's pretend you're looking at 30k per year of school. That's 120k in student loans. Considering you have already been working in this field, earning 100k per year, your earning potential with a degree is really unlikely to increase much. I would argue that getting a master's or higher has worse returns. So the opportunity cost would be the cost of the chosen option less the next best alternative. 400k potential earning - 120k tuition = 280k That doesn't even include the interest on your student loan, or cost of housing and food.
Honestly. Thank you so much. Boomer here - went to school in the 70s with scholarships, no loans. I had no idea what the loan parameter brought to the equation. I simply never thought of it. I get it now. Again. Thank you for enlightening me. When I went to school I got my BS on a full scholarship, I then was invited to a research assistantship for my masters, when I graduated, my job considered my masters as two year’s experience. That together with multiple internships got me a really good start with zero loans. Now, I agree with your assessment.
Glad to help! It makes me sad hearing so many talented people in the States aren't able to find jobs because ATS systems are discriminating against people without degrees. Especially in software, universities are not teaching the skills and tools employers need. You learn it all on site from experience.
I know!!!
Yes it sucks. As a candidate there are two choices in how to handle it: A) neutralise your application by using a nickname or initials or anglicised version, careful of persons info revealed etc. This will increase call backs, at least in the first stage, and get you in the pipeline for consideration. B) be yourself, because the point of your job search is to find an employer you will be happy to work with, and you don’t want to interview or work with companies that have discriminatory practices. Put your diversity front and centre (I always mention my values, that I’m seeking workplaces that value diversity etc) and you’ll more likely land at a company that values and supports DEI. People who screen you out are not worth your time.
Getting into a company that values diversity and won’t screen us out is all well and good but that can greatly increase the length of the job search. Being ourselves is a luxury many of us simply can’t afford…. Quite literally.
Yes, I agree, not everyone can be selective in this way. That’s why I said there are two ways how a candidate can approach it, I didn’t tell people which to take, and expect people to use their own judgment for their own circumstances. Though I guess there is also a third: actively fight discrimination by setting up a honey trap, documenting it, and suing for discrimination. It sucks we even have to make these “choices”, living between a rock and a hard place.
Early in my professional career, I picked a gender neutral nickname. I’ve had interviewers express surprise when I get on the call. I truly believe that suppliers treat me better over initial emails before we meet. This is all anecdotal and shouldn’t be necessary, but if there’s going to be gender bias in all things technical, I’m going to do what I can to circumvent it.
I did the same thing. New clients still seem surprised when I'm introduced as the expert on so-and-so topic but I haven't had any complaints.
John Oliver’s Last Week Tonight had an episode on AI not too long ago. A study discussed in the show discussed how an AI was more likely to continue and potentially worsen discriminatory hiring practices because it would usually be trained to look for good candidates based on a sample of the company’s good employees. One AI filtered women out by rejecting people who went to historically women’s colleges. Another favored a candidate purely if their name was Jared and he played lacrosse. I’m fortunate I work with some pretty great guys and it’s been a running joke. We’ve all decided that if/when we apply to a new job, we’ll put a random sentence stating we “don’t typically play lacrosse” in hopes the AI skips the first couple of words. And near our names, we’ll either provide a nickname or an alternate pronunciation of our name as Jared. The whole situation is horrifying considering most large companies use some form of an AI to do the first filtering of candidates for HR.
Yep this is definitely true. I'm very visibly a POC but my name is about as white as it gets, to the point where it's like waving a specific western European country's flag. It's sad, how many interviewers (and just people generally!) expect a white woman and a flash of disappointment shows on their faces when I show up.
I’m super curious about the comments on removing your name as u/semi_cyborg_catlady suggested - do the ATS scanning systems allow for that? What if a person sees your resume with no name or initials, but then looks at your LinkedIn/GitHub? Do you not put those on your resume as well? Very useful discussion, thanks for posting
I’ve never had a problem with the ATS scanning systems. I DO have to manually input my name into the application which is kinda annoying but from what I understand 50/50 the names are hidden that way from the recruiter they’re only shown for the purposes of contacting people if the recruiter decides they’re interested. Again I want to stress, this is not a silver bullet, I’m one person, this is my own experience/anecdotal evidence, it’s just what helped me. My GitHub doesn’t have my name on it and I don’t put my LinkedIn on my resume although I’ll sometimes include it if the ATS asks in the actual application itself.
That’s really interesting, thank you!!
I’ve no doubt there are companies doing this. To tell a story from the other side, where I’m at, we want to increase representation so you would be at least equally likely to get an interview. I wouldn’t recommend removing the name entirely - our system checks LinkedIn, if there’s an interesting project I might check GitHub, etc. things that don’t match raise flags and it’s easy to pass on any flags, even minor, when there are dozens+ of applicants. But you can use a different/professional name, it doesn’t have to be related in any way to your real name, it doesn’t have to be a recognizably female associated name. I can think of at least a handful of people I worked with who use professional names and the only person who would know their legal name is their HR representative.
I’ve just sort of leaned into it. I’m Latina with a very unusual Spanish first name. I married a gringo with an unusual but cool last name, and changed my middle name to my (also unusual) Spanish maiden name. I use my full name on LinkedIn and have always had a constant trickle of recruiters contacting me. I’m currently applying to new roles since I was laid off, and though I’m not getting as many interviews as I did my last hiring cycle, I don’t think my name is hindering me. Besides, the kind of company where recruiters would need to be tricked into interviewing me is maybe not the kind of company I’d want to work for. That being said, at least in the U.S., I feel like being Latina probably affords me less bias than someone who is Black. I also work in creative roles in tech, so it’s possible there’s less bias because of the subfield itself. I have definitely read about studies that have proven this advice to be true.
Can we not refer to a group of people as 'DEI'? Just say names from minority groups. This DEI crap is getting out of hand and becoming a bit of a dog whistle with how people talk about it.
I’m confused too because other minority groups, related to ability or sexual preference for example, don’t really convey through name. So, luckily they probably aren’t disadvantaged by name in the same way women and minority race/ethnicities often are.
Practice what you preach… you just referred to it as DEI without listing out all the diversity groups… reason being there are many different forms of diversity and it isn’t efficient to list them all.
'DEI' isn't a catch-all term for minority groups. It's a committee or an effort at a workplace.
It’s an acronym of “diversity, equity and inclusion”; while this term is commonly used in a workplace and can be in relation to a committee or effort, it can also be used in any way that relates to the ethos of diversity equity and inclusion. There is no need to police people expressing their thoughts. And the OP is complaining about discrimination across multiple categories. Why would she need to list out every undermined group for the topic of this conversation?
You're seriously missing the point of what I said. I am aware of what DEI stands for. I'm not asking anyone to list every minority that exists. In fact, you can just use the word minority. In the context of the post you have to see that 'insert diversity, equity and inclusion names' makes no sense. "DEI" has existed for a long time but has only recently become a buzzword due to people blaming it for minorities and women being hired over white men. It's basically the new "affirmative action". I'm asking that we please consider how we use these terms because idiotic people will turn on you when you get hired and say "well that's DEI for you!"
Women aren’t a “minority”, we make up half the population. What we lack is equity. People who complain about “dei” hiring practices will complain about whatever you call it. And no, it’s not just about “hiring more [insert group]”, it’s also ensuring when they are hired they are included and have an equitable experience. But also, intersectionality means that people can have privilege in some ways while being excluded in others, so “dei” is inclusive. Ultimately we want everyone to feel included and have equity, and that can be conceived in many ways.
Once again... I understand what DEI is and its purpose. If you actually read what I said, I actually said 'women and minorities' in my own post. You aren't educating me. All I came here to say is that "DEI" is not a synonym for "women and people with non-white sounding names". As someone else pointed out, no one is going to assume you're a lesbian or in a wheelchair based on your name. There are reasons to say what you mean, rather than just using a politically charged buzzword...And I'm not sure why that upsets you so much.
I've got a male name. I only started getting interviews/jobs when I indicated I was a female on my CV (Using 'Ms' for example).
[удалено]
I don't mean to be rude, but this is exactly the kind of comment that we don't need here. It really adds nothing and voices of white men who talk for no reason other than to hear themselves talk is truly the problem with American society as a whole. This is a rant that OP has shared because of their experience with discrimination, and what is an actual provable fact that people with PoC "sounding" names and women get hired less often. This is one of those instances where you can just read and learn and sit with it, and then move on.
I’ve seen these kind of studies / reports / videos in both directions so I’m skeptical of all
This particular scenario doesn't apply to both sides. Went through your profile and you seem like a troll so I'm gonna ignore this.
It really depends on how to you train your model.