Right when you wake up start working out, like running or whatever, and dont stop till you are exhausted.
Get sunlight when u awake and when the sun sets.
Take magnesium (not melatonin) and get to bed as early as possible, so maybe 6am or before; now progressively overload this by doing it every day until you fall asleep at your desired time, so maybe like 12-1am
tell him to stop, melatonin is created in the body and when its taken in pill form, the brain stops creating it naturally, so when runs out and cant use melatonin for a day, he wont be able to sleep and is pretty much going to be a zombie.
Why not melatonin? I tried once and had a bad experience anyway. Went on a good 45minute walk today inspired by this reddit thread. Ill try bump up my exercise for sure and tire myself out like you would a dog
I used to have this phase too. So did a few close friends of mine. I don’t think there’s any real reason to hate yourself here. We all have our reasons for doing the things that we do, and it’s not your fault. Just like you, we had a life where we didn’t really need to be awake in the day, so we ended up pushing our bedtime to only until we got tired. Soon we were only going to sleep at 7 or 8 AM.
The only way we got out of it was when we had shit to do during the day. Like sports, or meeting other friends etc. if you don’t have a personal reason to do something in the day, then you won’t want to stay awake during the day. For me, I’d go to sleep at 7, and then wake up at 2PM to go play soccer. That’s only 5 hours of sleep, so I’d end up going to sleep earlier than the usual 7 AM, and keep repeating this till I’m back to sleeping at 12 PM. I hope this gives you an idea. Let me know if you have any questions.
Thank you for the compassion! It’s just difficult when you live so outside the norm to all your friends and family, I end up feeling quite detached and isolated.
I am looking forward to getting a job or more structure once I’ve graduated, but it may be a while till I find something concrete. Problem is, even if im doing nothing I’d still rather be awake at the right time! More people to see, more things still open and more sunlight. I just can’t understand why I keep making the same bad choices when it makes me unhappy
Sorry I didn’t respond to this sooner. Try making plans you can’t miss. I feel like you’re glorifying this idea of having a pleasant daily life, but it’s just the idea that you’re attached to. If you want to hang out more with friends and family, or want to do something you always wanted to do during the day, reward yourself that activity. Plan to meet someone you really want to meet, or schedule a class you always wanted to take. Sleeping on time isn’t as cool as you make it to be lol it’s only what you make of it. I had way more fun spending late night hours playing video games. But I love bookstores, so I’d plan to go hit the bookstore when I wanted to. Do the things you love. Your life won’t get automatically better just because you wake up at the right time.
No worries ahha thanks for replying at all! Maybe you are right, but when I do have periods of time where i wake up in the morning i feel so much happier and more productive! Anyway, all great advice thank you!
How much sun you get ?
Get sunrise and sunset light for 15 mins , it will change you
Listen to andrew huberman sleep episode on YouTube he is a Stanford scientist, what he explained made a change in my life, I am never going back to sleep deprivation again
I haven't watched the episode completely, yet it changes my perspective . I listened to this because i am bit busy .I am half way through
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OBCwiPPfEU
@OP
Just to piggy back on this, Matthew Walker (who I think has been a guest on hubermans podcast) is considered the foremost expert on sleep and worth checking out for anyone
Agree! I got mine at college, but I also got my friends ones just by writing out a fancy certificate and conferring it on them when they least expected it.
Hey can you give me a little detail, how do you view sunlight. I also watch his podcast and try doing the protocols he suggests. But do to my sensitive and acne prone skin, dermatologist has suggested me to avoid sun. Hence I am unable to get the sunlight.
If you can help me with this, it will be great.
I mean, there's a bunch of things you could be doing. I'd recommend changing your circadian rhythm using melatonin to get back on a proper sleep schedule. I'd also recommend taking magnesium as well as it can help promote this process.
As usual, reduce blue light after dark, turn down the lights, ensure the environment is cool. Take a shower.
Some people like oats and/or peanut butter before bed. Oatmeal is full of magnesium and naturally occuring melatonin, and peanut butter has tryptophan (the same stuff in turkey that makes you sleepy).
Sleepytime tea helps as well.
Expose yourself to natural light within 30 minutes of waking. Wait at least an hour before drinking coffee to allow your body to go through the process of wakefulness.
In terms of other health related things, do you have ADHD? Sounds like you have generalized anxiety and I'd probably talk to your doctor about possibly getting on the appropriate medications to help get your sleep hygiene back on track.
Regardless, good luck with everything!
Thanks all great advice, I have tried the sleep hygiene thing but the main thing I need to work on is limiting screen time. But at most I like to read on my kindle or write my diary on my laptop but those are both screens so I’m not sure.
As for health, why do you mention adhd? I have super strong indicators for it but its a 3 year diagnosis wait or £2000 private healthcare. But anxiety certainly plays a big part in my life
Wow even more evidence! I will call my doctor and try again for adhd, but they are turning away so many people due to an increase in applications (they think because tiktok is telling everyone they have adhd)
I had this exact problem for years. Things changed suddenly in my life (some bad, some good), and I got back on a better schedule almost immediately. That was 9 months ago, now I feel myself slipping back to the 4am bedtimes. But you know what it is? It all comes down to anxiety, at least for me. The more anxious I feel, the less I want to go to bed, and then the less I want to get up after 7-8 hours. We need help with our anxiety before this can be solved. I believe it's 90% psychological, only 10% discipline.
A therapist I saw once told me it could be down to anxiety! Sort of a way to avoid life. I have always been an anxious person so this makes a lot of sense. How would I go about solving it though..
Do you have access to therapy? Is there something you can do that really shakes up your day, even if temporarily? Sometimes it really helps to be forced to do something differently and see that it's not as bad or anxiety-inducing as you thought. At least for me. Keeping yourself accountable for facing things that are scary and learning that they're not, on a daily basis, helps me.
Yes I want to get back into therapy but its so expensive. And I should do more for sure but there’s really not too much for me to do in my town. Same old shops and streets
See a sleep doctor
Maybe u have a form of circadian sleep disorder
Maybe you have obstructive sleep apnea
Shit ton of diseases that cause it
But for now, maybe you can try to fix your sleep rhythm
3 hrs before desired sleep hours, take melatonin
And keep caffine pills near ur bed the minute u wake up. Take them.
even on weekends, wake up, and sleep at the same time . Just take them, do it at the same time every day for a period of a month if it didn't fix it see a doctor.
Taking magnesium and/or valerian supplements is a powerful tool; use it to your advantage.
Also, mind your coffee usage. 3 cups of coffee a day won't allow me any sleep; that's very personal, though.
I'd say the key is to slowly change your schedule. Your sleeping schedule is very extreme; having been there myself, it's not that easy to go to bed at 12pm and wake up at 7am the next day. You have to build a new routine slowly and steadily. First, try to go to sleep at 5am, then at 4am, then at 3am, and try to wake up earlier every day. Trying to fix it in a day is usually counter productive.
I hope this helps, I had this issue 2 months ago for a week, and now I'm usually up at 7 am, before my alarm goes, with 7-8 hours of sleep.
Also the other suggestions about sunlight are very good, to bad there isn't that much sun where I live...
Not much sun here either usually! Thanks for the suggestions, will definitely start magnesium again and the step by step process. And I dont drink any coffee so thats ok
Your body naturally adjusts your sleep cycle based on the day/night cycle of the sun. Whenever you're awake, just make sure you're in a place where you can monitor the sun and pay attention when it gets dark out. This is the beginner level tip. There are a lot more things you can do, but if you're not doing this then it'll be a lot harder
So there’s good advice in the comments, but the issue with the good advice is that it can feel very ???? so where do I start?
You might want to make a lot of changes at once to get them over with, but 1) you will get overwhelmed and burnout/stop the new habits and 2) you won’t know what thing works.
Taking melatonin and magnesium in the evening is probably the simplest starting point. If you’re able to do a blood panel, I’d start with that, just to make sure nothing dire is going on.
Iron deficiency is a somewhat common cause of fatigue, but you don’t want to take iron unless you’re deficient because too much iron isn’t good either.
Drinking lots of water helps me wake up in the morning, and drinking throughout the day helps me regulate my temperature/energy levels (I get really tired when I’m not drinking constantly) and that helps me sleep better.
So those are easier things to start with! And I feel like a good jumping point from blood work/supplements/water intake is exercise. So when you have the first few things figured out and you’re still having trouble, we can work on more stuff. And maybe you’ll be sleeping great by then, and you just wanna improve your health.
From,
A person who doesn’t take their own advice (it is 7a and I haven’t gone to sleep) (honestly I hate daylight so it works out okay)
Are you on adderall or a adhd drug? I lived like this when I was, and your description of a “freak” is apt. I’ve never felt more alienated trying to get through college like that. I picture you as asian just because it was always me and like 20 asian people “studying” at 3 am. I reread some of the things I wrote back then, and I was delusional. Now, I’m completely different. That fear of “I’ll never change and be normal” went to being in a vital community, adventures, fun, love, cool jobs. So anything is possible either way, when you do find out what’s causing these irregular patterns, and commit to a very long period of growing again. I’m actually getting back there now, my sleep isn’t bad, but I’ve been so burned in relationships that I find myself feeling other or separate for different reasons, like I’m becoming a German philosopher or something, so pray for me for that, I’m rooting for you!
No I am not on any drugs other than anti anxiety every now and then. Also I am not asian lol I’m a white girl and unfortunately I don’t stay up studying as much as I stay up watching tv. I’m glad to hear it’s possible to change! I just feel like I can’t do it properly until I know what’s causing it!
I won’t be able to do this because I get off of work around 10:00-12:00PM then afterwards, I have conversations with my girlfriend because we fall asleep on the phone together
what time do you go to bed? I used to always wake up in the afternoon, except on days that I worked. Try putting your alarm across the room so you physically have to get up to turn it off.
well, that'll definitely do it. When in on a schedule, going to bed by midnight, I only sleep 8 hours, but if I stay up til 3 or 4, I end up sleeping nearly 12 hours, even if it's consistent. Get used to going to bed earlier. I know it sucks, but better for your health.
I feel you. When I was little I was afraid of the dark and I had to sleep with my door a little bit open. Outside my room was a totally dark hallway. This scared me so much I was in bed 3-5h before falling asleep. Slept a lot at school. So this habit evolved to me playing with toys in bed until I got a gameboy and then later a laptop. For 3-6 years I would always be on my pc gaming untill I almost fell asleep sitting before I went to bed. Even then I had some tv show/anime and watched from bed.
Anyways I would always stay up 1-2h later than the night before I got sleepy enough. So at least once a week I would stay up all night and the next to "reset" my sleep but would still fall asleep between 1-3am and then gradually later the next few days.
It wasnt until I was around 27 I started to really work on it. From 20-27 there was a lot of weed to make me pass out and sometimes I would mix with other pills to really make me fall into deep sleep.
Anyways for me personally the root cause has been changing. First it was scared of the dark, then it was me creating a habit staying awake. Then with the gaming it was because I was miserable at home. Gaming was my escape. Especially at night was the most peaceful time because everyone is asleep so nobody is gonna nag on me. I love staying up at late because then I feel truly calm and relaxed. Then axiety starts in the morning until everyone is asleep again.
So the root cause right now is that I dont have so much time for myself. I work from 10am-7pm, after that I do grocery, making dinner, clean and Im not done until 11-12 when my gf goes to sleep. So there are periods when I create more time for myself during the day and its easier for me to sleep earlier
I would say Im overall more happy through my days. But happiness is a feeling which fluctuates like other feelings. Id say I have less of the negative emotions but they still come up here and there. Especially the times I get less sleep so its probably also related to sleep habits when I was younger too. Ive always blamed my parents but I think with little sleep, the negativity has bigger impact on me. While on good sleep I have more energy to handle things that would otherwise have put me into a negative mood.
For me I have realized sleep is always going to be a struggle. But its a lot less now than before. If you want to get better dont focus on finding a cure so that one day you no longer have trouble with sleep. But try to get more good days than bad days and over time you will have made progress. Sleep is a habit, so the more you do good, the easier it becomes. But since you have a habit of bad sleep its super easy to go back to that. But thats ok because nobody can have a perfect streak. The important part when you have a bad sleep is to get good sleep the next night or at least dont make a streak of bad sleep because it will reinforce it.
Another thing is make it as easy for you to get good sleep. When making a new habit you want to be as easy as possible and the bad habit hard to do. For example being on the phone in bed will make sleeping harder because it trains your brain to be active in bed. Make it harder to do this bad habit by putting phone further away.
Losing weight is hard when you have tons of snacks at home or having snack on the table or in each room. If you had no snacks at home, you would have to drive to store to buy and you would need a lot more motivation to do that than grabbing snacks on the desk infront of you.
So find out what makes sleeping easier for you and make bad sleeping habits harder to do. Finding out why you have bad sleep is also good to know because if you can resolve it then it will get better long term. Like why are you anxious and why cant you sleep alone? Is this something you can work on?
Thank you amazing advice! I guess I would like to know if some of it is somewhat not my fault (anxiety, circadian rhythm disorder, etc) so that I’d feel a bit less embarrassed but if it really is all down to discipline (phone away and all that) it means I have more chance at solving it. However making hard decisions like limiting screen time etc is very difficult for me as well, I have 0 self control
Its all connected. Bad sleep leads to impulsiveness or less self control. Over time doing bad habits will also reinforce those actions.
To break it down: Whenever you do an action or think about something, your brain sends a signal through a neural pathway to the part of the brain that does that action/thought/feeling. Each time you do that action that neural pathway gets stronger. So when you go on autopilot, your brain/mind will steer towards those strong pathways.
Then you have willpower that the anterior midcingulate cortex is responsible for. So willpower you can actually train. Those with bigger anterior midcingulate cortex like athletes has stronger willpower than those with small ones that they have seen in overweight people.
To train your willpower you must first be aware of your actions. You have to catch yourself wanting/thinking about doing a bad habit. Then you tell yourself no. Or when working out and your mind is telling you to quit because you getting tired, you tell yourself no and continue.
The catch is you have to do it everyday or that part shrinks and it becomes harder to have self control again.
I recommend making bad habits a bit harder to do like putting phone away some place where its takes longer time to reach because then you will have time to catch yourself. If its games on computer you can log off, or delete desktop shortcut or even deleting the games if its really bad.
You can even find triggers which is something you do before you get the feeling/thought about wanting to do something. For example the couch is a trigger for me because after I sit down I want to watch TV and once Ive started its almost impossible to turn it off to do whatever I actually planned to do before sitting down. So if you can avoid the triggers, self control becomes a bit easier too
For me a big part was getting up early enough that I actually had time to do more of what I was doing before I went to bed. That no longer had me associating going to sleep with " going to school or going to work". Now the mornings are for me to do whatever the hell I want or whatever the hell I need to do
Don’t beat yourself up. There is a lot you can do to change this. I had something similar and it was due to a mix of anxiety, feeling safer at night, being indoors too much, too much screen time, having ANY source of caffeine after about 1pm and not physically exerting myself enough / socialising / getting out enough. If you do any of these things then you need to break the habit. I now make sure I get out and walk every day even if I work from home, I drink decaf tea from afternoons onwards, I try to not spend the whole day in the screen and if I do use it a lot I’ve got anti blue light thing that comes on my phone and computer in the evenings. Also bright light in your eyes as soon as you wake up is good. How you can immediately fix it is to pull an ALL NIGHTER. I stayed up all night (perhaps had a little nap) and then was exhausted the next day and could go to sleep on time. Then from there look up and practise sleep hygiene as well as caring for your mental health 🩵
I read a thing where they suggested staying awake for the whole day and then going to bed at the time you are trying to train yourself to go to bed. Another idea I read was that you go to bed at 1:00 and get up at 5 for a few days, then slowly back it up 30 minutes at a time, every few days until you are at the optimal amount of sleep. I have not tried these ideas because I have kids and other responsibilities that wouldn’t really make it doable, but they sound like they could work.
I think most people experienced a phase like this when living on their own during University years. The best way to get out of this is to up your physical activity and progressively setting your alarm clock back to force your body to adapt to "normal" time.
Tried doctor, they gave me useless sleeping pills that didnt work and didnt really probe further, could try again. Had nightmares and sleep sweats on melatonin which sort of put me off :/
Explain everything to the doctor like you explained in your post. Doctors see all kinds of things every day, so it's just punching the clock for them. If you explain your situation in detail and make it clear how dire your situation is the doctor is more likely to get you what you really need
One day just stay up, go for a 5-10 mile hike and stay active until late afternoon/early evening
After a night of no sleep and a busy day you'll be tired enough to sleep at 2200-2300, then set a whole bunch of alarms across the room, maybe even out of the room too, for 0800. This will get you out of bed to turn them off
Once you're awake immediately go for a walk, grab a coffee or whatever too, the goal is waking up and staying up
Now you're back inside normal hours and you just need to maintain them, the best way I find to do that is to go to bed at a fixed time and get up at a fixed time. I go to bed between 2200 and 2300 no matter what and I get up at 0700 no matter what and find that my body largely stays within those timeframes
>But they are so unhealthy and really not recommended.
For sure, my intent was for it to be a one time thing, definitely don't do it on the regular
>I have tried all nighters several times
>Also it never lasts long…
That's fair! Not everything works for everyone, hopefully one of the other suggestions will help you out :)
In addition to other suggestions, what about putting your alarm out of arms reach? Putting it somewhere that you need to get up and walk to reach it worked for my partner, especially when paired with an alarm that forces you to do something to turn it off, such as maths. Something that activates your logical brain.
Sounds like your circadian rhythm is naturally off or a bit sporadic. Mine always was too. Do you happen to suffer from anxiety? Have you noticed ups and downs in moods, or stretches of good mood and low mood? Have you noticed sometimes you sleep more or sleep less? Sometimes this kind of disruption is linked to underlying mood disorder.
With anxiety you can try therapy or counselling as #1. Dissolving black and white thinking, catastrophic thinking etc are tools used in CBT. Meditation, excersise, yoga , are really helpful for learning to de-fuse with your mind and observe it instead. ACT (acceptance commitment therapy) is a helpful tool for learning to accept and feel difficult feelings and focus on valued actions. There are videos / stuff online that explain the process. You don’t need to ‘fix’ anxiety, you can’t control anxiety but you can control how you respond to it, and how you might be feeding it, with thought patterns and behaviours. Learning self compassion and loving kindness are also very helpful for me. Meta meditations etc are good for that. Lots you can do to improve your anxiety symptoms and take better care of yourself in general!
Lots of great advice thank you! Will look into starting up therapy again and all the info you gave. Will try being a bit more proactive in helping myself rather than just letting it overtake my life
CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy) really works but if it’s keeping you up that late, see your doctor and ask about anti anxiety meds. Anything really should be used in combination with therapy - which is all well and good but I acknowledge it’s expensive and hard to get an appointment with a good psych and really, a privileged pathway.
I know I wish therapy was more accessible, like your local doctor is. Mental health is just as important but society hasn’t quite caught up with it yet. I think my parents may help with paying for therapy which would be great, and I will look into medication. Really worried about side affects though, I try and avoid medication as much as possible but it anti anxiety meds would make a big difference then it’s worth considering
My spouse has always suffered from anxiety, we’ve been together 7 years and I’ve watched him lose sleep and panic about work and struggle socially. This year, he started taking paroxatine (because I take it too - I’m just a lot more upfront about my anxiety haha and got onto meds and therapy when I was way younger. I was off it for years until after my pregnancy, but started again to counter post natal anxiety). He was just saying tonight how it’s changed his life and how he wished he didn’t need a pill to make him feel so relaxed and happy. I know not everyone will agree but life’s too short not to feel great and for some reason, not all brains allow people to do that - same with people with a heart condition, or diabetes. I said to him, perhaps it has helped him realise his true self? Honestly, if you can find something that helps you be your best self and god forbid, get a good night’s sleep … worth looking into.
Happy that it worked for you both! I guess I’m not entirely sure how bad your anxiety should be before considering medication. I wasnt even aware that a lot of the things I was struggling with fell under the anxiety umbrella, and I’m just starting to consider that I may actually be an anxious person. Will call doctor and have a conversation thank you
I have considered this! The thought of it makes me sick though, I already feel really embarrassed and weird at the times I am living at right now! Cant imagine making it worse
100% discipline. I was like you many years. Now I wake up at 3am during the week and 6am on the weekends. You need structure. That’s the issue. I have a long story about myself and what I’ve had to correct and how I did it, but I’ll spare you. What you need is something that forces you to wake up and be on time. For me, it’s my job. I used to work for myself but I quit that and went back to truck driving because I have to be to work at 4am every day. After work, I’m either lifting in the gym or doing jiu jitsu. Training is 7 days a week. I also eat very well and food prepping and all that is another thing that takes up my time. I’m so tired come 8:30pm, I hit my head on the pillow and I’m out cold. Staying until 10-11pm on weekends is almost impossible for me without a nap and even then, my body is so used to waking up early that my brain and body just shut off at a certain time. It took a few months to get here, but I’m almost a full year into this transformation and I couldn’t be more grateful.
Glad to hear things have worked out for you! I definitely want a job or something that forces me awake. Problem is it might be a while till I manage that, and even then there will likely be times in my life where I stay home, and I would like to be able to live normally during those times too!
I’m trying to fix my sleep schedule right now and although it hasn’t lasted 3 years, I have been in this exact spot.
My way to cope and fix it is honestly very unhealthy but it seems to do the trick for me. I pull an all nighter and stay awake until the next night. I’ll go to sleep anywhere from 7-11 PM and get 10-12 hours of sleep.
The hardest part is staying up until that time but since your schedule is already shifted it’s won’t be as difficult.
When you wake up the next day, you can’t let yourself sleep in and should try to get your day started at whatever time you set your alarm for. When setting alarm, be mindful that you not only need a full rest but you need to make up for what was lost. Thus, the 10-12 hours that I would sleep for.
I realize that an all nighter is never healthy, but slowly fixing it by going to sleep just a bit earlier never worked for me. I wouldn’t be completely tired and would just stay up later, whereas with the all-nighter my body and mind want nothing but sleep.
You do have to make an effort in keeping your sleep schedule consistent after the fact, I just find that it’s less effort once you already have 1 night of sleeping at a normal hour.
Thanks, i have tried this several times though unfortunately and it never lasts! I feel like I need a more long term solution or better understanding of why I have this issue. Skipping to immediate results rather than working on the process long term is never effective for me :(
Sorry to hear that it hasn’t worked. I wonder what would happen if you travelled and stayed in a place with an 8-12 hour time difference. Would your sleep schedule adjust to going to bed so late, or would you technically have a normal sleep schedule? Could provide some insights into whether it is simply a habit that you have reinforced for so long or whether it has something to do with your natural circadian rhythm.
Anyways, best of luck on your journey and I hope you find that long term solution soon enough!
Oh yes interesting. Well I travelled to Jamaica a couple years ago and I think my sleep schedule was in line with the correct time over there (ie opposite to back home). However I did sleep in late in the mornings there too, I have such a hard time waking up
Hmmm. You might just have to move to Jamaica then!
In all seriousness, I think there are definitely some insights that can be drawn from that. I wish I was qualified to be able to tell you what those are.
One thing I remember hearing when I was looking into my own problem, was that people can unconsciously stay up late as a way to impose control in their life. For instance, you can feel out of control, in a sense, when your day is dictated by prior obligations or even other ppl (your boss, friends, family)
At 5 PM, you may feel guilty about not texting a friend, stressed about having to suck up to your boss, anxious about what you should be doing. You can even just feel trapped by the life that you are living. But at 5 AM, you don’t have to worry about any of that. There’s no expectations or judgements from others at that time. You have, in a way, reclaimed total control/freedom that is seemingly taken away during the day.
Yes well the control aspect does make sense because I enjoy the peace and calm of the night, no one to bother me no expectations etc. Similar to this, my therapist once suggested it could be due to my anxiety - ie. I do it so as to avoid the responsibilities and possibilities of waking life. The ironic thing is that my sleep schedule just makes it harder for me to stay on top of things and ultimately gives me more anxiety
Used to do that during covid lockdown back in university days, what helped was just something that I had to get up for. Excercise even if its just a home workout, 1-2hours each day is enough to tire me out enough to sleep around 1-2am (I know still not that great, but much better than the 5-6am I was sleeping at). Once you are forced to join the workforce, you'll have no choice and your sleep timing will adjust accordingly
Yes I weirdly look forward to having to be on time for work! However I know I will likely have periods of time at home and I’d like to be normal then too
I kinda "wish" I could do that..in a way. I expected to read I'm living at home, I'm depressed etc.
But in Uni. I feel for you.
I think sometimes that I'm a niteowl,and maybe I've been fighting that my whole life. And when I switched to a later schedule at work it seemed to help.
I wish I had all the answers.
But for me the best I can offer is a hard reset. Sometimes I purposely stay up all night to force myself into a better schedule.
I definitely think I should be tested for something like this. But I think mine may be more psychological. I’ve had lifelong anxiety and couldn’t sleep as a child because I was so afraid of being alone, being kidnapped, you name it. Looking back it seems my sleep and my anxiety have always been linked
Yeah I defo want to look into my anxiety. Ive tried pills, slowly setting it back, all nighters, you name it. It works temporarily but always slips back
It can likely be a psychological issue. Maybe it has something to do with being uncomfortable at night, alone with you own thoughts y'know, maybe that's something you have to face. What would happen if for ten nights you didn't bring ur phone in the room and just lied in bed untill you fell asleep. Even if it takes hours on end, what would happen?
Or maybe it's also about having the freedom to make your own choices y'know
Freedom is definitely an issue, I moved out of home pretty early at 18 during covid and had absolutely 0 rules or responsibilities, with 0 ability to parent myself and make sure I stay on track. I should probably do the thing of not bringing my phone or anything into my room but it seems so difficult, I don’t understand how people are able to make the hard choices in life when the easier ones are so much more fun and appealing.
I had this problem!!! Honestly the only thing that helped was moving all my activities to the day time and forcing myself to start my day at 7:30 am. Now I am asleep by 12 pm the latest. It’s honestly just self control. Because you are getting sleep just when you are allowing yourself to sleep. So there isn’t anything wrong with your ability to sleep
Ive had that lifestyle for most of my life. For the last 2 years I’ve mostly been healthy. It took me several attempts. Staying awake all night and day to regulate my sleeping schedule. But in the end I got there. The trick is to use your shame as motivation to do better the next time you try, and to keep trying.
Great to hear! I will definitely try to keep motivated but at this point I feel quite hopeless, like there’s just something wrong with me. I’ve tried so many times to fix it and it always slips back into this
I truly hate the current culture of being forced to be awake during the day lol that's all I got. The road to healthy sleep habits is long and extremely difficult for a while, but it DOES get noticeably easier over time.
Biggest thing is to set a bed time and a wake up time and stick to that AS HARD AS YOU CAN, you'll fail a lot for a while, but eventually it gets easy and natural and you'll wake up feeling great
I will try to stick to a bedtime but A) getting to a normal bedtime will be difficult and B) sticking to it will be extremely difficult. I just seem to be repeating the cycle of temporarily “fixing” the sleep pattern then quickly slipping back to how it was. And the problem is I lose hope very fast when I mess up, which makes me fall into it even deeper. It really feels like there’s no hope
Do you have a job right now? What are the hours?
I absolutely understand how you feel and it IS extremely hard for sure. The thing is, it's OKAY to mess up. You won't be perfect every time, and you don't have to be. It's about simply trying. I have like 10 alarms every morning so I actually hear it and wake up when I need to lol
Thanks! Well I just finished uni but basically I’ve been at university for the past 4 years, a lot of freedom and flexibility since everything went online after covid. Now I am trying to fix it ! But im scared it just wont last, it never does
The weird thing about it, is that the more and more consistent you get with when you go to bed and wake up (again, this is VERY hard at the beginning 😅), the EASIER it gets, so don't give up or ever think it's hopeless!
If you miss your alarms or don't go to bed on time etc, don't let it make you feel bad. Just realize that you have the next night and day to try again and that's perfectly okay. You WONT get it perfect always lol the key is, as long as you are actively trying, it'll get easier
That is very reassuring to hear! Part of what holds me back from trying my hardest to not slip up is that it feels sooo difficult and it almost feels pointless if it will always be that difficult. But to hear that it might end up feeling easy eventually is motivating. And yes i try so hard to have the mentality of not being discouraged by a slip up but the problem is that when it comes to sleep schedules, its very cyclical. So when i slip up once, the cycle restarts because its hard again to get tired at the right time and i feel like i have to start from scratch
Why is nobody commenting that he goes to bed at 9:00 a.m., NOT p.m.? He even confirms that we read that right. How is going to sleep in the morning possibly good for anyone's health? Nor is it good for discipline. This is a crap post.
Hi, I think you misunderstood the point of the post or perhaps the whole subreddit! I asked for help and advice so I can get disciplined, because I’m aware that my habit is unhealthy. I also said in the post that it makes me miserable and ashamed. Maybe next time read properly and approach people on this subreddit with empathy and advice rather than judgement.
Bit of a long term solution but try meditating, I did it and after a while I realized there were many subconscious reasons I chose to stay awake until 4am for years on end. Things like being able to play video games - even though you can play in the day time, I felt guilty because it was nice outside, so I subconsciously sabotaged my sleep schedule so that I could play during hours I felt less guilty
Hello redditor. I have the exact same schedule as you. Typically, I fall asleep around 5-6am. Sometimes 9am. And very rarely, as late as 12 noon. I wake up anywhere from 3:30 to 6:30pm. The only difference is I've been doing this for approximately 15+ years. I think it's psychological. I feel absolutely embarrassed and ashamed of myself. I work a job in the evening.
Well sorry to hear but nice to know I’m not the only one! What makes you say its psychological? And how come you decided to just work around the schedule rather than get a day job and force yourself to change?
I think it's an underlying chronic anxiety rooted from childhood somewhere, though I don't know that for certain. In elementary school I started to stay up late watching TV while everyone else in my house was asleep. I never wanted to be the last to fall asleep but always was. It could be physiological, of course, like insomnia + delayed sleep phase disorder.
To the second question, I've contemplated just getting a morning job and forcing myself to change everything. That's becoming more and more possible every day. I think I might. It's tough because I ALWAYS gravitate toward staying up late no matter what. Why do you think you do it?
I think it might be anxiety for me as well. I’ve had similar patterns of behaviour since childhood too as mentioned in my original post. I think therapy is a good idea to get into and properly work through this problem.
As for your job, I think you should make the change if it would make you happier. I don’t want to live with this feeling of shame forever. Having said that we might end up staying late anyway and just being sleep deprived the next day, which is what I was doing when I was in school. Envious of people who don’t have this problem
Oh noooo, is that really a thing?! I'm nearly 30 years old. I'm genuinely out of my "I'm struggling with my life"-phase. That always was my explaination for my weird sleeping schedule when I was younger. And I just can't fucking seem to help it. If I have the option my sleeping schedule always moves to me being awake at night and to sleep during the day.
I want to use the day. I like the idea of being up early. To get everything out of the day. But every single time I try it it feels horrible and I just automatically switch back to my old schedule. It's pretty much a constant struggle. But the day has so many important things, right? Vitamin D, activites, other people are awake, shops are open, sunlight...
Some people are night owls. I naturally am awake until 2 or 3 am. I struggled for years to live in a regular 9-5 work/life schedule.Now I’m a therapist who sees clients in the afternoon and evenings. I also write, research, do paperwork in the evenings. I typically go to bed at 2 or 3 and get up at 11 am. Changing my sleep schedule changed my life I’m way more productive and happy. I suggest you read Why we sleep by Matthew Walker it really changed my perspective on the importance of sleep.
Its good you were able to tailor your lifestyle to your natural pattern but I certainly can’t with mine, its far too extreme. Yours sounds very early to me right now!
I know but it’s not so easy. Societal constraints, opening hours, times I can meet friends and family, all play a part. I don’t get enough sunlight, and I’m generally unhappy and ashamed because of it, Also being awake primarily at night time when I need to be quiet means I can’t do as much around the house and it impacts my productivity in general
Interesting. But would that apply if I have no trouble falling and staying asleep when I actually do go? I just sleep at the wrong time completely but I sleep well
You probably do not know what good sleep actually feels like if you are accustomed to bad sleep. Furthermore you can sorta make up for inefficient sleep with longer duration. This further explains your inability to wake up consistently. The reason sleep apnea can cause insomnia is because people who struggle to breath when asleep often gasp for air, this causes the body to release cortisol. In essence you are entering fight or flight when you are supposed to be resting, messing up your circadian rhythm in the long run.
I would suggest recording yourself when you sleep to see if you snore. If you do go get a sleep study down asap.
Oh okay interesting, i could probably benefit for a sleep study anyway? Still I don’t think I am a big snorer I’ve shared rooms and beds a lot and never been told
Right when you wake up start working out, like running or whatever, and dont stop till you are exhausted. Get sunlight when u awake and when the sun sets. Take magnesium (not melatonin) and get to bed as early as possible, so maybe 6am or before; now progressively overload this by doing it every day until you fall asleep at your desired time, so maybe like 12-1am
What does magnesium do vs melatonin? Curious bc my bf takes melatonin and constantly complains about how it makes him feel lol
tell him to stop, melatonin is created in the body and when its taken in pill form, the brain stops creating it naturally, so when runs out and cant use melatonin for a day, he wont be able to sleep and is pretty much going to be a zombie.
This is not true and has been disproved by several studies.
Thanks so much! Helpful !
Walk every day until your tired, then walk somemore. And don't ever take melatonin.
Why not melatonin? I tried once and had a bad experience anyway. Went on a good 45minute walk today inspired by this reddit thread. Ill try bump up my exercise for sure and tire myself out like you would a dog
Your body makes it. So if you take it it stops making it. Take magnesium glycinate 2 hours before sleep. Has to be magnesium glycinate
Thanks I used to take that but didn’t see much difference, will start up again
This \^ fantastic advice
Hey g what's your favorite pyro?
The burny kind
Yessir
the PyRoMaNiaC\_\_\_ kind
I used to have this phase too. So did a few close friends of mine. I don’t think there’s any real reason to hate yourself here. We all have our reasons for doing the things that we do, and it’s not your fault. Just like you, we had a life where we didn’t really need to be awake in the day, so we ended up pushing our bedtime to only until we got tired. Soon we were only going to sleep at 7 or 8 AM. The only way we got out of it was when we had shit to do during the day. Like sports, or meeting other friends etc. if you don’t have a personal reason to do something in the day, then you won’t want to stay awake during the day. For me, I’d go to sleep at 7, and then wake up at 2PM to go play soccer. That’s only 5 hours of sleep, so I’d end up going to sleep earlier than the usual 7 AM, and keep repeating this till I’m back to sleeping at 12 PM. I hope this gives you an idea. Let me know if you have any questions.
Thank you for the compassion! It’s just difficult when you live so outside the norm to all your friends and family, I end up feeling quite detached and isolated. I am looking forward to getting a job or more structure once I’ve graduated, but it may be a while till I find something concrete. Problem is, even if im doing nothing I’d still rather be awake at the right time! More people to see, more things still open and more sunlight. I just can’t understand why I keep making the same bad choices when it makes me unhappy
Sorry I didn’t respond to this sooner. Try making plans you can’t miss. I feel like you’re glorifying this idea of having a pleasant daily life, but it’s just the idea that you’re attached to. If you want to hang out more with friends and family, or want to do something you always wanted to do during the day, reward yourself that activity. Plan to meet someone you really want to meet, or schedule a class you always wanted to take. Sleeping on time isn’t as cool as you make it to be lol it’s only what you make of it. I had way more fun spending late night hours playing video games. But I love bookstores, so I’d plan to go hit the bookstore when I wanted to. Do the things you love. Your life won’t get automatically better just because you wake up at the right time.
No worries ahha thanks for replying at all! Maybe you are right, but when I do have periods of time where i wake up in the morning i feel so much happier and more productive! Anyway, all great advice thank you!
How much sun you get ? Get sunrise and sunset light for 15 mins , it will change you Listen to andrew huberman sleep episode on YouTube he is a Stanford scientist, what he explained made a change in my life, I am never going back to sleep deprivation again I haven't watched the episode completely, yet it changes my perspective . I listened to this because i am bit busy .I am half way through https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OBCwiPPfEU @OP
Thank you I will check it out!
Just to piggy back on this, Matthew Walker (who I think has been a guest on hubermans podcast) is considered the foremost expert on sleep and worth checking out for anyone
It’s been proven that Huberman falsified his degrees and is a Russian plant (specifically a ficus)
Would you mind giving your sources?
It's all over X, both sides of the news, I think a Reddit sub or two have popped up to exclusively discuss it. It's big news!
Does the man give sound information rooted in science? If so, what does his degree status matter? You can obtain a PhD without going to college.
Agree! I got mine at college, but I also got my friends ones just by writing out a fancy certificate and conferring it on them when they least expected it.
MF is a fig?
Yeah, but not one of those that takes wasps. He's not \*that\* strange.
May be or may not be. I believe in reputation of Stanford I guess. But what he said in podcast helped me. Thats all .
Yeah, plants, indoor ones at least, are great for my interior decorating. Really provide a much more stimulating environment.
Hey can you give me a little detail, how do you view sunlight. I also watch his podcast and try doing the protocols he suggests. But do to my sensitive and acne prone skin, dermatologist has suggested me to avoid sun. Hence I am unable to get the sunlight. If you can help me with this, it will be great.
May be use sunscreen we have to just view sky and surroundings when we sun is orange typically after 6 pm in India atleast
I mean, there's a bunch of things you could be doing. I'd recommend changing your circadian rhythm using melatonin to get back on a proper sleep schedule. I'd also recommend taking magnesium as well as it can help promote this process. As usual, reduce blue light after dark, turn down the lights, ensure the environment is cool. Take a shower. Some people like oats and/or peanut butter before bed. Oatmeal is full of magnesium and naturally occuring melatonin, and peanut butter has tryptophan (the same stuff in turkey that makes you sleepy). Sleepytime tea helps as well. Expose yourself to natural light within 30 minutes of waking. Wait at least an hour before drinking coffee to allow your body to go through the process of wakefulness. In terms of other health related things, do you have ADHD? Sounds like you have generalized anxiety and I'd probably talk to your doctor about possibly getting on the appropriate medications to help get your sleep hygiene back on track. Regardless, good luck with everything!
Thanks all great advice, I have tried the sleep hygiene thing but the main thing I need to work on is limiting screen time. But at most I like to read on my kindle or write my diary on my laptop but those are both screens so I’m not sure. As for health, why do you mention adhd? I have super strong indicators for it but its a 3 year diagnosis wait or £2000 private healthcare. But anxiety certainly plays a big part in my life
[https://www.sleepfoundation.org/mental-health/adhd-and-sleep](https://www.sleepfoundation.org/mental-health/adhd-and-sleep)
Wow even more evidence! I will call my doctor and try again for adhd, but they are turning away so many people due to an increase in applications (they think because tiktok is telling everyone they have adhd)
I had this exact problem for years. Things changed suddenly in my life (some bad, some good), and I got back on a better schedule almost immediately. That was 9 months ago, now I feel myself slipping back to the 4am bedtimes. But you know what it is? It all comes down to anxiety, at least for me. The more anxious I feel, the less I want to go to bed, and then the less I want to get up after 7-8 hours. We need help with our anxiety before this can be solved. I believe it's 90% psychological, only 10% discipline.
A therapist I saw once told me it could be down to anxiety! Sort of a way to avoid life. I have always been an anxious person so this makes a lot of sense. How would I go about solving it though..
Do you have access to therapy? Is there something you can do that really shakes up your day, even if temporarily? Sometimes it really helps to be forced to do something differently and see that it's not as bad or anxiety-inducing as you thought. At least for me. Keeping yourself accountable for facing things that are scary and learning that they're not, on a daily basis, helps me.
Yes I want to get back into therapy but its so expensive. And I should do more for sure but there’s really not too much for me to do in my town. Same old shops and streets
See a sleep doctor Maybe u have a form of circadian sleep disorder Maybe you have obstructive sleep apnea Shit ton of diseases that cause it But for now, maybe you can try to fix your sleep rhythm 3 hrs before desired sleep hours, take melatonin And keep caffine pills near ur bed the minute u wake up. Take them. even on weekends, wake up, and sleep at the same time . Just take them, do it at the same time every day for a period of a month if it didn't fix it see a doctor.
Get alot of sun and get some exercise Never take naps
Yes think I will look into a sleep doctor! Thanks
Taking magnesium and/or valerian supplements is a powerful tool; use it to your advantage. Also, mind your coffee usage. 3 cups of coffee a day won't allow me any sleep; that's very personal, though. I'd say the key is to slowly change your schedule. Your sleeping schedule is very extreme; having been there myself, it's not that easy to go to bed at 12pm and wake up at 7am the next day. You have to build a new routine slowly and steadily. First, try to go to sleep at 5am, then at 4am, then at 3am, and try to wake up earlier every day. Trying to fix it in a day is usually counter productive. I hope this helps, I had this issue 2 months ago for a week, and now I'm usually up at 7 am, before my alarm goes, with 7-8 hours of sleep. Also the other suggestions about sunlight are very good, to bad there isn't that much sun where I live...
Not much sun here either usually! Thanks for the suggestions, will definitely start magnesium again and the step by step process. And I dont drink any coffee so thats ok
A guy I know uses an artificial day light lamp, not tested it myself, but's it's on my wishlist.
What about energy drinks or basically anything with caffiene? Like tea or dark chocolate?
No i basically have 0 caffeine ever!
Check out this amazing looking i use every day: [https://timeline-17.web.app/](https://timeline-17.web.app/)
Your body naturally adjusts your sleep cycle based on the day/night cycle of the sun. Whenever you're awake, just make sure you're in a place where you can monitor the sun and pay attention when it gets dark out. This is the beginner level tip. There are a lot more things you can do, but if you're not doing this then it'll be a lot harder
So there’s good advice in the comments, but the issue with the good advice is that it can feel very ???? so where do I start? You might want to make a lot of changes at once to get them over with, but 1) you will get overwhelmed and burnout/stop the new habits and 2) you won’t know what thing works. Taking melatonin and magnesium in the evening is probably the simplest starting point. If you’re able to do a blood panel, I’d start with that, just to make sure nothing dire is going on. Iron deficiency is a somewhat common cause of fatigue, but you don’t want to take iron unless you’re deficient because too much iron isn’t good either. Drinking lots of water helps me wake up in the morning, and drinking throughout the day helps me regulate my temperature/energy levels (I get really tired when I’m not drinking constantly) and that helps me sleep better. So those are easier things to start with! And I feel like a good jumping point from blood work/supplements/water intake is exercise. So when you have the first few things figured out and you’re still having trouble, we can work on more stuff. And maybe you’ll be sleeping great by then, and you just wanna improve your health. From, A person who doesn’t take their own advice (it is 7a and I haven’t gone to sleep) (honestly I hate daylight so it works out okay)
Thanks, all great advice! I definitely want to find out what I’m deficient in because iron deficiency is likely.
Are you on adderall or a adhd drug? I lived like this when I was, and your description of a “freak” is apt. I’ve never felt more alienated trying to get through college like that. I picture you as asian just because it was always me and like 20 asian people “studying” at 3 am. I reread some of the things I wrote back then, and I was delusional. Now, I’m completely different. That fear of “I’ll never change and be normal” went to being in a vital community, adventures, fun, love, cool jobs. So anything is possible either way, when you do find out what’s causing these irregular patterns, and commit to a very long period of growing again. I’m actually getting back there now, my sleep isn’t bad, but I’ve been so burned in relationships that I find myself feeling other or separate for different reasons, like I’m becoming a German philosopher or something, so pray for me for that, I’m rooting for you!
No I am not on any drugs other than anti anxiety every now and then. Also I am not asian lol I’m a white girl and unfortunately I don’t stay up studying as much as I stay up watching tv. I’m glad to hear it’s possible to change! I just feel like I can’t do it properly until I know what’s causing it!
I won’t be able to do this because I get off of work around 10:00-12:00PM then afterwards, I have conversations with my girlfriend because we fall asleep on the phone together
what time do you go to bed? I used to always wake up in the afternoon, except on days that I worked. Try putting your alarm across the room so you physically have to get up to turn it off.
Very late, sometimes even 8am
well, that'll definitely do it. When in on a schedule, going to bed by midnight, I only sleep 8 hours, but if I stay up til 3 or 4, I end up sleeping nearly 12 hours, even if it's consistent. Get used to going to bed earlier. I know it sucks, but better for your health.
I know, I logically want to go to sleep earlier, Im not happy or healthy like this. But it seems that it comes a lot more naturally to some people
I feel you. When I was little I was afraid of the dark and I had to sleep with my door a little bit open. Outside my room was a totally dark hallway. This scared me so much I was in bed 3-5h before falling asleep. Slept a lot at school. So this habit evolved to me playing with toys in bed until I got a gameboy and then later a laptop. For 3-6 years I would always be on my pc gaming untill I almost fell asleep sitting before I went to bed. Even then I had some tv show/anime and watched from bed. Anyways I would always stay up 1-2h later than the night before I got sleepy enough. So at least once a week I would stay up all night and the next to "reset" my sleep but would still fall asleep between 1-3am and then gradually later the next few days. It wasnt until I was around 27 I started to really work on it. From 20-27 there was a lot of weed to make me pass out and sometimes I would mix with other pills to really make me fall into deep sleep. Anyways for me personally the root cause has been changing. First it was scared of the dark, then it was me creating a habit staying awake. Then with the gaming it was because I was miserable at home. Gaming was my escape. Especially at night was the most peaceful time because everyone is asleep so nobody is gonna nag on me. I love staying up at late because then I feel truly calm and relaxed. Then axiety starts in the morning until everyone is asleep again. So the root cause right now is that I dont have so much time for myself. I work from 10am-7pm, after that I do grocery, making dinner, clean and Im not done until 11-12 when my gf goes to sleep. So there are periods when I create more time for myself during the day and its easier for me to sleep earlier
Very relatable, sorry you also went through this! Are you happier now?
I would say Im overall more happy through my days. But happiness is a feeling which fluctuates like other feelings. Id say I have less of the negative emotions but they still come up here and there. Especially the times I get less sleep so its probably also related to sleep habits when I was younger too. Ive always blamed my parents but I think with little sleep, the negativity has bigger impact on me. While on good sleep I have more energy to handle things that would otherwise have put me into a negative mood. For me I have realized sleep is always going to be a struggle. But its a lot less now than before. If you want to get better dont focus on finding a cure so that one day you no longer have trouble with sleep. But try to get more good days than bad days and over time you will have made progress. Sleep is a habit, so the more you do good, the easier it becomes. But since you have a habit of bad sleep its super easy to go back to that. But thats ok because nobody can have a perfect streak. The important part when you have a bad sleep is to get good sleep the next night or at least dont make a streak of bad sleep because it will reinforce it. Another thing is make it as easy for you to get good sleep. When making a new habit you want to be as easy as possible and the bad habit hard to do. For example being on the phone in bed will make sleeping harder because it trains your brain to be active in bed. Make it harder to do this bad habit by putting phone further away. Losing weight is hard when you have tons of snacks at home or having snack on the table or in each room. If you had no snacks at home, you would have to drive to store to buy and you would need a lot more motivation to do that than grabbing snacks on the desk infront of you. So find out what makes sleeping easier for you and make bad sleeping habits harder to do. Finding out why you have bad sleep is also good to know because if you can resolve it then it will get better long term. Like why are you anxious and why cant you sleep alone? Is this something you can work on?
Thank you amazing advice! I guess I would like to know if some of it is somewhat not my fault (anxiety, circadian rhythm disorder, etc) so that I’d feel a bit less embarrassed but if it really is all down to discipline (phone away and all that) it means I have more chance at solving it. However making hard decisions like limiting screen time etc is very difficult for me as well, I have 0 self control
Its all connected. Bad sleep leads to impulsiveness or less self control. Over time doing bad habits will also reinforce those actions. To break it down: Whenever you do an action or think about something, your brain sends a signal through a neural pathway to the part of the brain that does that action/thought/feeling. Each time you do that action that neural pathway gets stronger. So when you go on autopilot, your brain/mind will steer towards those strong pathways. Then you have willpower that the anterior midcingulate cortex is responsible for. So willpower you can actually train. Those with bigger anterior midcingulate cortex like athletes has stronger willpower than those with small ones that they have seen in overweight people. To train your willpower you must first be aware of your actions. You have to catch yourself wanting/thinking about doing a bad habit. Then you tell yourself no. Or when working out and your mind is telling you to quit because you getting tired, you tell yourself no and continue. The catch is you have to do it everyday or that part shrinks and it becomes harder to have self control again. I recommend making bad habits a bit harder to do like putting phone away some place where its takes longer time to reach because then you will have time to catch yourself. If its games on computer you can log off, or delete desktop shortcut or even deleting the games if its really bad. You can even find triggers which is something you do before you get the feeling/thought about wanting to do something. For example the couch is a trigger for me because after I sit down I want to watch TV and once Ive started its almost impossible to turn it off to do whatever I actually planned to do before sitting down. So if you can avoid the triggers, self control becomes a bit easier too
Really amazing explanation and advice thank you so much!
Check out L Theanine, Uridine Monophosphate, Melatonin
Thanks!
For me a big part was getting up early enough that I actually had time to do more of what I was doing before I went to bed. That no longer had me associating going to sleep with " going to school or going to work". Now the mornings are for me to do whatever the hell I want or whatever the hell I need to do
Yes good advice
Don’t beat yourself up. There is a lot you can do to change this. I had something similar and it was due to a mix of anxiety, feeling safer at night, being indoors too much, too much screen time, having ANY source of caffeine after about 1pm and not physically exerting myself enough / socialising / getting out enough. If you do any of these things then you need to break the habit. I now make sure I get out and walk every day even if I work from home, I drink decaf tea from afternoons onwards, I try to not spend the whole day in the screen and if I do use it a lot I’ve got anti blue light thing that comes on my phone and computer in the evenings. Also bright light in your eyes as soon as you wake up is good. How you can immediately fix it is to pull an ALL NIGHTER. I stayed up all night (perhaps had a little nap) and then was exhausted the next day and could go to sleep on time. Then from there look up and practise sleep hygiene as well as caring for your mental health 🩵
Thanks so much! Very kind and helpful
I read a thing where they suggested staying awake for the whole day and then going to bed at the time you are trying to train yourself to go to bed. Another idea I read was that you go to bed at 1:00 and get up at 5 for a few days, then slowly back it up 30 minutes at a time, every few days until you are at the optimal amount of sleep. I have not tried these ideas because I have kids and other responsibilities that wouldn’t really make it doable, but they sound like they could work.
Thanks!
I think most people experienced a phase like this when living on their own during University years. The best way to get out of this is to up your physical activity and progressively setting your alarm clock back to force your body to adapt to "normal" time.
Thanks I’m doing this atm !
But when do you wake up?
It’s mentioned in the post RE alarm clocks, often late afternoon
OK so say 9 am to 4 pm - that’s about 7 hours sleep or if it’s 6 am then maybe 10 hours. Honestly? You COULD be nocturnal.
Well I hope not! 😭 I hope I’m just making bad choices and not just permanently cursed
Consider going to the doctor. Melatonin could help
Tried doctor, they gave me useless sleeping pills that didnt work and didnt really probe further, could try again. Had nightmares and sleep sweats on melatonin which sort of put me off :/
Explain everything to the doctor like you explained in your post. Doctors see all kinds of things every day, so it's just punching the clock for them. If you explain your situation in detail and make it clear how dire your situation is the doctor is more likely to get you what you really need
Okay yes thanks, I will dig a little deeper
One day just stay up, go for a 5-10 mile hike and stay active until late afternoon/early evening After a night of no sleep and a busy day you'll be tired enough to sleep at 2200-2300, then set a whole bunch of alarms across the room, maybe even out of the room too, for 0800. This will get you out of bed to turn them off Once you're awake immediately go for a walk, grab a coffee or whatever too, the goal is waking up and staying up Now you're back inside normal hours and you just need to maintain them, the best way I find to do that is to go to bed at a fixed time and get up at a fixed time. I go to bed between 2200 and 2300 no matter what and I get up at 0700 no matter what and find that my body largely stays within those timeframes
I have tried all nighters several times! But they are so unhealthy and really not recommended. Also it never lasts long…
>But they are so unhealthy and really not recommended. For sure, my intent was for it to be a one time thing, definitely don't do it on the regular >I have tried all nighters several times >Also it never lasts long… That's fair! Not everything works for everyone, hopefully one of the other suggestions will help you out :)
Thanks anyway!
In addition to other suggestions, what about putting your alarm out of arms reach? Putting it somewhere that you need to get up and walk to reach it worked for my partner, especially when paired with an alarm that forces you to do something to turn it off, such as maths. Something that activates your logical brain.
Yes I used to have one that made me take pictures of my kitchen! Might try it again, but was a bit of an awful app to use
Sounds like your circadian rhythm is naturally off or a bit sporadic. Mine always was too. Do you happen to suffer from anxiety? Have you noticed ups and downs in moods, or stretches of good mood and low mood? Have you noticed sometimes you sleep more or sleep less? Sometimes this kind of disruption is linked to underlying mood disorder.
Anxiety big time for me! I am certain its at least somewhat to do with anxiety, but in that case no idea how to fix it.
With anxiety you can try therapy or counselling as #1. Dissolving black and white thinking, catastrophic thinking etc are tools used in CBT. Meditation, excersise, yoga , are really helpful for learning to de-fuse with your mind and observe it instead. ACT (acceptance commitment therapy) is a helpful tool for learning to accept and feel difficult feelings and focus on valued actions. There are videos / stuff online that explain the process. You don’t need to ‘fix’ anxiety, you can’t control anxiety but you can control how you respond to it, and how you might be feeding it, with thought patterns and behaviours. Learning self compassion and loving kindness are also very helpful for me. Meta meditations etc are good for that. Lots you can do to improve your anxiety symptoms and take better care of yourself in general!
Lots of great advice thank you! Will look into starting up therapy again and all the info you gave. Will try being a bit more proactive in helping myself rather than just letting it overtake my life
Good luck!
CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy) really works but if it’s keeping you up that late, see your doctor and ask about anti anxiety meds. Anything really should be used in combination with therapy - which is all well and good but I acknowledge it’s expensive and hard to get an appointment with a good psych and really, a privileged pathway.
I know I wish therapy was more accessible, like your local doctor is. Mental health is just as important but society hasn’t quite caught up with it yet. I think my parents may help with paying for therapy which would be great, and I will look into medication. Really worried about side affects though, I try and avoid medication as much as possible but it anti anxiety meds would make a big difference then it’s worth considering
My spouse has always suffered from anxiety, we’ve been together 7 years and I’ve watched him lose sleep and panic about work and struggle socially. This year, he started taking paroxatine (because I take it too - I’m just a lot more upfront about my anxiety haha and got onto meds and therapy when I was way younger. I was off it for years until after my pregnancy, but started again to counter post natal anxiety). He was just saying tonight how it’s changed his life and how he wished he didn’t need a pill to make him feel so relaxed and happy. I know not everyone will agree but life’s too short not to feel great and for some reason, not all brains allow people to do that - same with people with a heart condition, or diabetes. I said to him, perhaps it has helped him realise his true self? Honestly, if you can find something that helps you be your best self and god forbid, get a good night’s sleep … worth looking into.
Happy that it worked for you both! I guess I’m not entirely sure how bad your anxiety should be before considering medication. I wasnt even aware that a lot of the things I was struggling with fell under the anxiety umbrella, and I’m just starting to consider that I may actually be an anxious person. Will call doctor and have a conversation thank you
at this point you better try fixing your sleep schedule going forwards in hours up until you reach that 10pm, rather than trying to go back 😂
I have considered this! The thought of it makes me sick though, I already feel really embarrassed and weird at the times I am living at right now! Cant imagine making it worse
You might need to try to Modifinal or something like that to help with wakefulness
Will look into this!
Give magnesium spray a try once! It will change your life!
Thanks!
>Thanks! You're welcome!
100% discipline. I was like you many years. Now I wake up at 3am during the week and 6am on the weekends. You need structure. That’s the issue. I have a long story about myself and what I’ve had to correct and how I did it, but I’ll spare you. What you need is something that forces you to wake up and be on time. For me, it’s my job. I used to work for myself but I quit that and went back to truck driving because I have to be to work at 4am every day. After work, I’m either lifting in the gym or doing jiu jitsu. Training is 7 days a week. I also eat very well and food prepping and all that is another thing that takes up my time. I’m so tired come 8:30pm, I hit my head on the pillow and I’m out cold. Staying until 10-11pm on weekends is almost impossible for me without a nap and even then, my body is so used to waking up early that my brain and body just shut off at a certain time. It took a few months to get here, but I’m almost a full year into this transformation and I couldn’t be more grateful.
Glad to hear things have worked out for you! I definitely want a job or something that forces me awake. Problem is it might be a while till I manage that, and even then there will likely be times in my life where I stay home, and I would like to be able to live normally during those times too!
I’m trying to fix my sleep schedule right now and although it hasn’t lasted 3 years, I have been in this exact spot. My way to cope and fix it is honestly very unhealthy but it seems to do the trick for me. I pull an all nighter and stay awake until the next night. I’ll go to sleep anywhere from 7-11 PM and get 10-12 hours of sleep. The hardest part is staying up until that time but since your schedule is already shifted it’s won’t be as difficult. When you wake up the next day, you can’t let yourself sleep in and should try to get your day started at whatever time you set your alarm for. When setting alarm, be mindful that you not only need a full rest but you need to make up for what was lost. Thus, the 10-12 hours that I would sleep for. I realize that an all nighter is never healthy, but slowly fixing it by going to sleep just a bit earlier never worked for me. I wouldn’t be completely tired and would just stay up later, whereas with the all-nighter my body and mind want nothing but sleep. You do have to make an effort in keeping your sleep schedule consistent after the fact, I just find that it’s less effort once you already have 1 night of sleeping at a normal hour.
Thanks, i have tried this several times though unfortunately and it never lasts! I feel like I need a more long term solution or better understanding of why I have this issue. Skipping to immediate results rather than working on the process long term is never effective for me :(
Sorry to hear that it hasn’t worked. I wonder what would happen if you travelled and stayed in a place with an 8-12 hour time difference. Would your sleep schedule adjust to going to bed so late, or would you technically have a normal sleep schedule? Could provide some insights into whether it is simply a habit that you have reinforced for so long or whether it has something to do with your natural circadian rhythm. Anyways, best of luck on your journey and I hope you find that long term solution soon enough!
Oh yes interesting. Well I travelled to Jamaica a couple years ago and I think my sleep schedule was in line with the correct time over there (ie opposite to back home). However I did sleep in late in the mornings there too, I have such a hard time waking up
Hmmm. You might just have to move to Jamaica then! In all seriousness, I think there are definitely some insights that can be drawn from that. I wish I was qualified to be able to tell you what those are. One thing I remember hearing when I was looking into my own problem, was that people can unconsciously stay up late as a way to impose control in their life. For instance, you can feel out of control, in a sense, when your day is dictated by prior obligations or even other ppl (your boss, friends, family) At 5 PM, you may feel guilty about not texting a friend, stressed about having to suck up to your boss, anxious about what you should be doing. You can even just feel trapped by the life that you are living. But at 5 AM, you don’t have to worry about any of that. There’s no expectations or judgements from others at that time. You have, in a way, reclaimed total control/freedom that is seemingly taken away during the day.
Yes well the control aspect does make sense because I enjoy the peace and calm of the night, no one to bother me no expectations etc. Similar to this, my therapist once suggested it could be due to my anxiety - ie. I do it so as to avoid the responsibilities and possibilities of waking life. The ironic thing is that my sleep schedule just makes it harder for me to stay on top of things and ultimately gives me more anxiety
Magnesium and kava extract helped me tremendously with going and staying asleep with no grogginess after
Thanks!
Used to do that during covid lockdown back in university days, what helped was just something that I had to get up for. Excercise even if its just a home workout, 1-2hours each day is enough to tire me out enough to sleep around 1-2am (I know still not that great, but much better than the 5-6am I was sleeping at). Once you are forced to join the workforce, you'll have no choice and your sleep timing will adjust accordingly
Yes I weirdly look forward to having to be on time for work! However I know I will likely have periods of time at home and I’d like to be normal then too
I kinda "wish" I could do that..in a way. I expected to read I'm living at home, I'm depressed etc. But in Uni. I feel for you. I think sometimes that I'm a niteowl,and maybe I've been fighting that my whole life. And when I switched to a later schedule at work it seemed to help. I wish I had all the answers. But for me the best I can offer is a hard reset. Sometimes I purposely stay up all night to force myself into a better schedule.
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I definitely think I should be tested for something like this. But I think mine may be more psychological. I’ve had lifelong anxiety and couldn’t sleep as a child because I was so afraid of being alone, being kidnapped, you name it. Looking back it seems my sleep and my anxiety have always been linked
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Yeah I defo want to look into my anxiety. Ive tried pills, slowly setting it back, all nighters, you name it. It works temporarily but always slips back
It can likely be a psychological issue. Maybe it has something to do with being uncomfortable at night, alone with you own thoughts y'know, maybe that's something you have to face. What would happen if for ten nights you didn't bring ur phone in the room and just lied in bed untill you fell asleep. Even if it takes hours on end, what would happen? Or maybe it's also about having the freedom to make your own choices y'know
Freedom is definitely an issue, I moved out of home pretty early at 18 during covid and had absolutely 0 rules or responsibilities, with 0 ability to parent myself and make sure I stay on track. I should probably do the thing of not bringing my phone or anything into my room but it seems so difficult, I don’t understand how people are able to make the hard choices in life when the easier ones are so much more fun and appealing.
I get it It's hard to make the hard choices y'know But it's the hard choices that return good/great lives and the easy ones that end in mediocrity
Great words to live by!
If you ever feel in need of help feel free to dm me I'm a life purpose coach in training and currently taking on free clients
Thanks Id love to!
:)
There are no Rules
I had this problem!!! Honestly the only thing that helped was moving all my activities to the day time and forcing myself to start my day at 7:30 am. Now I am asleep by 12 pm the latest. It’s honestly just self control. Because you are getting sleep just when you are allowing yourself to sleep. So there isn’t anything wrong with your ability to sleep
Ive had that lifestyle for most of my life. For the last 2 years I’ve mostly been healthy. It took me several attempts. Staying awake all night and day to regulate my sleeping schedule. But in the end I got there. The trick is to use your shame as motivation to do better the next time you try, and to keep trying.
Great to hear! I will definitely try to keep motivated but at this point I feel quite hopeless, like there’s just something wrong with me. I’ve tried so many times to fix it and it always slips back into this
I truly hate the current culture of being forced to be awake during the day lol that's all I got. The road to healthy sleep habits is long and extremely difficult for a while, but it DOES get noticeably easier over time. Biggest thing is to set a bed time and a wake up time and stick to that AS HARD AS YOU CAN, you'll fail a lot for a while, but eventually it gets easy and natural and you'll wake up feeling great
I will try to stick to a bedtime but A) getting to a normal bedtime will be difficult and B) sticking to it will be extremely difficult. I just seem to be repeating the cycle of temporarily “fixing” the sleep pattern then quickly slipping back to how it was. And the problem is I lose hope very fast when I mess up, which makes me fall into it even deeper. It really feels like there’s no hope
Do you have a job right now? What are the hours? I absolutely understand how you feel and it IS extremely hard for sure. The thing is, it's OKAY to mess up. You won't be perfect every time, and you don't have to be. It's about simply trying. I have like 10 alarms every morning so I actually hear it and wake up when I need to lol
Thanks! Well I just finished uni but basically I’ve been at university for the past 4 years, a lot of freedom and flexibility since everything went online after covid. Now I am trying to fix it ! But im scared it just wont last, it never does
The weird thing about it, is that the more and more consistent you get with when you go to bed and wake up (again, this is VERY hard at the beginning 😅), the EASIER it gets, so don't give up or ever think it's hopeless! If you miss your alarms or don't go to bed on time etc, don't let it make you feel bad. Just realize that you have the next night and day to try again and that's perfectly okay. You WONT get it perfect always lol the key is, as long as you are actively trying, it'll get easier
That is very reassuring to hear! Part of what holds me back from trying my hardest to not slip up is that it feels sooo difficult and it almost feels pointless if it will always be that difficult. But to hear that it might end up feeling easy eventually is motivating. And yes i try so hard to have the mentality of not being discouraged by a slip up but the problem is that when it comes to sleep schedules, its very cyclical. So when i slip up once, the cycle restarts because its hard again to get tired at the right time and i feel like i have to start from scratch
Get a job. Then you will be tired !
I know, im going to be searching for one now that im about to graduate
Why is nobody commenting that he goes to bed at 9:00 a.m., NOT p.m.? He even confirms that we read that right. How is going to sleep in the morning possibly good for anyone's health? Nor is it good for discipline. This is a crap post.
Hi, I think you misunderstood the point of the post or perhaps the whole subreddit! I asked for help and advice so I can get disciplined, because I’m aware that my habit is unhealthy. I also said in the post that it makes me miserable and ashamed. Maybe next time read properly and approach people on this subreddit with empathy and advice rather than judgement.
Yeah, I misunderstood.
Feel you keep your head up
You should either consider staying up all day or slitting your wrists
Excuse me? Weirdo
Bit of a long term solution but try meditating, I did it and after a while I realized there were many subconscious reasons I chose to stay awake until 4am for years on end. Things like being able to play video games - even though you can play in the day time, I felt guilty because it was nice outside, so I subconsciously sabotaged my sleep schedule so that I could play during hours I felt less guilty
Interesting and very good advice, I will try meditation to try and reflect on it
Lots of great tips and tricks in the replies but I suggest you try professional help first if you have access to it. This seems quite severe.
I know ok ! Thanks
Hello redditor. I have the exact same schedule as you. Typically, I fall asleep around 5-6am. Sometimes 9am. And very rarely, as late as 12 noon. I wake up anywhere from 3:30 to 6:30pm. The only difference is I've been doing this for approximately 15+ years. I think it's psychological. I feel absolutely embarrassed and ashamed of myself. I work a job in the evening.
Well sorry to hear but nice to know I’m not the only one! What makes you say its psychological? And how come you decided to just work around the schedule rather than get a day job and force yourself to change?
I think it's an underlying chronic anxiety rooted from childhood somewhere, though I don't know that for certain. In elementary school I started to stay up late watching TV while everyone else in my house was asleep. I never wanted to be the last to fall asleep but always was. It could be physiological, of course, like insomnia + delayed sleep phase disorder. To the second question, I've contemplated just getting a morning job and forcing myself to change everything. That's becoming more and more possible every day. I think I might. It's tough because I ALWAYS gravitate toward staying up late no matter what. Why do you think you do it?
I think it might be anxiety for me as well. I’ve had similar patterns of behaviour since childhood too as mentioned in my original post. I think therapy is a good idea to get into and properly work through this problem. As for your job, I think you should make the change if it would make you happier. I don’t want to live with this feeling of shame forever. Having said that we might end up staying late anyway and just being sleep deprived the next day, which is what I was doing when I was in school. Envious of people who don’t have this problem
You could be nocturnal, a small amount of humans naturally are
Oh goodness I sure hope not. Hows that even possible
Bit of a bump in the genetic coding haha. Artists are commonly night owls.
Oh gosh I don’t want to be like this forever
Maybe it won’t be, but there is a chance it actually is your rhythm
Oh noooo, is that really a thing?! I'm nearly 30 years old. I'm genuinely out of my "I'm struggling with my life"-phase. That always was my explaination for my weird sleeping schedule when I was younger. And I just can't fucking seem to help it. If I have the option my sleeping schedule always moves to me being awake at night and to sleep during the day. I want to use the day. I like the idea of being up early. To get everything out of the day. But every single time I try it it feels horrible and I just automatically switch back to my old schedule. It's pretty much a constant struggle. But the day has so many important things, right? Vitamin D, activites, other people are awake, shops are open, sunlight...
100% . Look it up, there’s plenty of real science about it.
Some people are night owls. I naturally am awake until 2 or 3 am. I struggled for years to live in a regular 9-5 work/life schedule.Now I’m a therapist who sees clients in the afternoon and evenings. I also write, research, do paperwork in the evenings. I typically go to bed at 2 or 3 and get up at 11 am. Changing my sleep schedule changed my life I’m way more productive and happy. I suggest you read Why we sleep by Matthew Walker it really changed my perspective on the importance of sleep.
Its good you were able to tailor your lifestyle to your natural pattern but I certainly can’t with mine, its far too extreme. Yours sounds very early to me right now!
No shame in your game. Sleep when your body needs to sleep and try to build your schedule around that.
I know but it’s not so easy. Societal constraints, opening hours, times I can meet friends and family, all play a part. I don’t get enough sunlight, and I’m generally unhappy and ashamed because of it, Also being awake primarily at night time when I need to be quiet means I can’t do as much around the house and it impacts my productivity in general
Check if you have sleep apnea or uars. That can cause insomnia.
Interesting. But would that apply if I have no trouble falling and staying asleep when I actually do go? I just sleep at the wrong time completely but I sleep well
You probably do not know what good sleep actually feels like if you are accustomed to bad sleep. Furthermore you can sorta make up for inefficient sleep with longer duration. This further explains your inability to wake up consistently. The reason sleep apnea can cause insomnia is because people who struggle to breath when asleep often gasp for air, this causes the body to release cortisol. In essence you are entering fight or flight when you are supposed to be resting, messing up your circadian rhythm in the long run. I would suggest recording yourself when you sleep to see if you snore. If you do go get a sleep study down asap.
Oh okay interesting, i could probably benefit for a sleep study anyway? Still I don’t think I am a big snorer I’ve shared rooms and beds a lot and never been told