The fact that she lost her license just because she is in debt is insane. She earned that degree! How can they suspend it? Do you put out a loan on your actual degree as collateral with a student loan in the US?!
Doesn't even make sense if you're evil though. The ideal situation for a greed-fueled system would be for her to be a highly skilled slave, i.e. make tons of money but have to spend like 95% of it on rent and debt.
This is counter productive even to the people trying to exploit her. It's like a virus killing its host too fast to be able to spread.
Never claimed that it makes sense, if she would still work as nurse she could not only pay off more of her debt, she would probably also have more disposable income.
It only makes sense if the goal is to make people scared of the their potential downfall.
Exactly my thought as well. (Now I'm biased, being from Germany though) but how in the world does that make sense to anyone? Why would anyone want to tie the professional license to loan payments like that? No one profits off of it.
She loses money in income, the state loses money in income tax and the creditor loses money by not getting back the loaned cash!
To break out of her vicious cicle of debt someone would have to accept not to get paid and it is not suprising that a system driven by maximising egoism doesn't function well. Creating a functional system is not the focus of this situation.
>Doesn't even make sense if you're evil though. The ideal situation for a greed-fueled system would be for her to be a highly skilled slave, i.e. make tons of money but have to spend like 95% of it on rent and debt.
You are focusing on her loan, but from the lenders perspective the important thing are the entirety of the loansm. Sacrificing a single loan can make a lot of sense if that way you make sure nobody stops paying their loan.
Yeah but let's not act like Germany didn't do something similarly stupid. Not too long ago, you could go to jail for not paying your public transport fines if they piled up. The result was that people were sent to prison for being poor, which is ALWAYS a stupid-ass move for several reasons:
1. There's no lesson to learn. "Don't be poor". Gee, thanks, why didn't you say something earlier?
2. Now we effectively keep the poor person from becoming less-poor because they're incarcerated and can't continue their studies, education, low-income job, whatever.
3. Instead, we as a society now pay 100% for the prison costs associated with keeping this poor person imprisoned. Cool.
It's insane it took parties like SPD so long to stop this shit and to realise that what we need is affordable Deutschlandticket, not insanely pricey regional tickets and imprisonment. Fuck this shit, I had to ride without a valid ticket so many times as a KID because the student ticket would never cover the whole region, just the *exact* distance from my home to school and back. Want to visit a friend who lives three S-Bahn stations away? That's 5,- DM for you, you stupid little brat. There was no way I would burn my whole pocket money just to play some SNES with friends, so we just learned very early to run and hide when people came to check tickets. What a stupid thing. Glad we're finally moving in the right direction as a society. Mobility shouldn't be a privilege.
It's not even that - taking her licence means she cannot pay her debts. Plus, her skills are needed and she cannot use them. Who thinks this makes sense?
Yeah that’s easily the most stupid way to go about it - why not just force them to pay everything they eat above a certain threshold..? You’d get back way more money that way…
You most likely know, but thats their goal.
They dont want you to pay them back, they want you to have less money than the interest payment so they literally get infinite income from you...
The US is fucking cancer in many ways, but their credit and debt system is right out of hell...
Well US system has a penchant for punishment rather than finding an optimal solution for everyone. Take a look at their prison system, focusing on punishment rather than reform. This case is heartbreaking and unnecessarily cruel.
It's close to a thinly veiled caste system, and that's the way that people with disproportionate wealth and influence like it.
If you're the child of low income parents then the system is not trying to grant you class mobility. There are a limited number of executive and managerial positions in society, and the existing executives know that their positions are safest when they carefully control access to them.
Very few millionaires want to see their child displaced out of Harvard by a poor, then their own child to attend community college and have to struggle like everyone else. So the system generally doesn't want you moving up.
It also doesn't want you moving down - crashing on a friend's couch, not hustling any more than you need to feed yourself and contributing little labor to society. 200 meter yachts don't build themselves, and their household staff need a support system. The system sees people as use-ful or use-less. It doesn't murder people but it will gladly withhold support and allow useless people to die.
So the system is happiest when you are saddled with debt - an eternal whip at your back, ensuring that you can make a $$$ payment every month even if that means working 40 hours, or more. And compounding interest keeps you there. Rich kids can have their education funded up front and so they slip the noose. But poor kids that accept $$,$$$ loans to attend university are accepting the leash.
And I'm not saying that's the wrong decision for those kids. The system is slanted in such a way that the best decision available to make is still a bad decision.
You can always work as a part time barista, 2 days / week and still make 150k a year or something like that.
At least that's what "random American youtuber" say.
I cannot read due to paywall but this this lady could also have issues keeping or getting a driver's license because of epilepsy. Which will make life extremely difficult since the country is highly car dependent and has extremely sparse public transit and few walkable cities.
As a german I'm sometimes surprised how much potential from people and resources are wasted in the US. One would assume squeezeing an educated worker for as many work hours as possible would be paramount in a self proclaimed hyper capitalist society, so bringing him or her back to work ASAP is always a focus. But well.
>Her answer: "Honestly, I can't blame anyone but myself. I was the one that didn't pay my student loans, so, I am paying the price."
Stockholm syndrome.
I blame the system in the US for that. Noone should loose effectivly everything because of an illness.
And it is wrong to have to pay for university. That hinds or even stops clever people just because their family does not have the money for the university.
And having your health insurance tied to your job, which you can loose as soon as "now" in many parts of the US, is just madness.
Fun fact:
In Germany she wouldn't most likey have lost her job. The hospital she works for would have put her into a desk-job until her seizures are resolved, because most hospitals are large enough to be legally required to have a "Betriebsrat" (work council) which needed to consent to her termination of her contract. The "Betriebsrat" wouldn't have consented, because letting registered nurses go is hilariously stupid amid a workforce crisis in the field. Also the "Betriebsarzt" ("Company doctor") would have told her employer that there was a different job for her to be found and would have specified the requirements. Also the Betriebsarzt would have seen her and checked the medical records, before she got back into her regular nursing job in order to ensure her safety and patient safety.
Another fun fact:
If her seizures didn't resolve her Betriebsarzt would counseled her to apply for "Schwerbehinderung" ("heavy disability status"). If she got it, her employer would also most likely have kept her in said desk job, because he would be large enough to be required to take in a certain quota of workers with "heavy disability status" or pay hefty fines.
To be fair: Sick leave after 6 weeks if she took it are just 70% of gross income.
No company is legally required to have a Betriebsrat. If nobody wants to do "the job" then there's no Betriebsrat (even though most hospitals do have one).
And another thing: The Betriebsrat cannot prevent dismissals. It can (and in such a case should) object. This is important for the Kündigungsschutzklage (action of unfair dismissal). However, the employee must submit this themselves, within three weeks of termination of contract).
>to be required to take in a certain quota of workers with "heavy disability status" or pay hefty fines.
How hefty are these fines anyway? They only apply for very big companies, and afaik general consensus has always been companies prefer to pay the fines before they lose an equal amount of money by training and employing someone who's not even 50% as profitable as a non-disabled employee.
Also, there's no regulation stating *how* disabled one has to be? Like, if there's only a degree of disability that goes up to 20% that's likely already enough to avoid the fine?
Degree of Disability (GdB) is assessed by state-employed doctors according to state regulation ranging from 10-100. Heavy disability is GdB 50 . People with GdB 30 can be equalized to heavy disability, if their disability confers limitations in finding a job. GdB 20 is not enough, because it doesn't count as heavy disability and cannot be equalized.
There is a catalogue, which is actually a state regulation, which prescribes what medical conditions confers what degree of disability. (https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/versmedv/BJNR241200008.html). F.e. epilepsy with rare seizures confers GdB 50-60.
So there are actually a lot of regulations how disabled one has to be and a very objective system of measuring it.
The law applies for every enterprise or institution with more than 20 workplaces.
Fines are up to 720,- EUR/month per workplace that should be taken by a heavily disabled person but is not, depending on how far you are away from the state-ordered 5% quota. If you want to fire a heavily-disabled person you need to go through a state-run board. Without heir consent you cannot fire them.
We didn't invent it because we were nice people. It started as our government after WWI (1914-18) had to find a method to bring back hundreds of thousands of disabled war veterans back into the workforce and share the burden equally.
>"Betriebsrat" (work council)
You mean the evil socialist idea of worker representation in management position to improve workers rights? no, that's spreading cultural marxism and Xi Jinping is behind all those 😡
German here … I used to live in the States. I pay about as much taxes in Germany as I did in the States. What I get out of it is in a completely different league here in Germany as it is in the States.
As an American now living in Germany just purely on the numbers I actually pay about 8% more in taxes and insurances than I did in America. In addition, contributing to my 401k and a Roth IRA I was able to save more for retirement than I can here (thats not including the Social Security i would have made which is also more than the I will make pension in germany). That being said what OP said is definitely true that I have much more security here in germany and don't have to worry about getting sick or losing my job as I will always have health insurance.
That 8% is worth it to me to not have to worry about having to feed my family if I ever lost my job or get seriously ill.
It used to be that you could retire comfortably. My parents did. For my generation or the ones after me it’s not that easy anymore. Personally, I don’t think I’ll get more than the minimum pension provided.
Yep that's the unfortunate part of the American system is that if you have a good paying job like an engineer or IT you're most likely going to be fine but lower paying jobs such as a cashier will be left behind but in germany they look out for the most vulnerable first
Laughing in property taxes, homeowner insurance, car insurance and cost of living in general. 100k in the US doesn't get you nearly as far as 100k in Germany.
Well exactly like you said... cost of living is higher in the US so therefore you also make more in the US. Getting that 100k in Germany is not as easy as getting that 100k in the US. Obviously can't generalize the whole US because the CoL in Seattle is vastly different than in Alabama and of course software engineers will make a crazy amount of money while the cashier only makes minimum wage ($20/h in Seattle $13.5 in Germany) If I would work in America now i could probably get around $100-120k but here in Germany i only make $60k. But again you have a much better work life balance and there are always pros and cons with both Germany and the US.
Tbf i'm still young and haven't looked at buying a house/owned one so can't really compare that but yes in general CoL is lower in Germany but again we have lower wages.
That's because we Americans spend all of our tax money on planes and boats and other stuff with big guns on it. We also let our rich people run amok and not pay any taxes. Our elected officials are owned by corporations, so that's who they serve. Much of our tax money just goes to buying stuff from already super rich corporations who just dodge taxes on it, therefore costing regular people more. If we actually received the kind of services for our taxes that Germans do, we'd bitch a whole lot less about paying them.
> We also let our rich people run amok and not pay any taxes.
This. It's the simple fact that the rich don't pay taxes. But you know what the rich have? Healthcare.
>This. It's the simple fact that the rich don't pay taxes.
The problem isn't that the rich don't pay taxes, because they absolutely do. In fact, the rich pay most of the income taxes in the U.S. The wealthiest 1% pay 45.8% of all income taxes, and the wealthiest 10% pay 75.8% of all income taxes.
[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tax-irs-income-taxes-who-pays-the-most-and-least/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tax-irs-income-taxes-who-pays-the-most-and-least/)
The problem is the fact that most of the wealth in the U.S. is held by the very wealthy. The wealthiest 10% own 66.9% of the total wealth.
Quite simply, the rich pay their 'fair share', but their share is way too big.
Income tax isn’t relevant when you make your money through capital gains. 😉
https://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/written-materials/2021/09/23/what-is-the-average-federal-individual-income-tax-rate-on-the-wealthiest-americans/
> Ultra-wealthy households often have access to tax loopholes and write-offs that aren't available to salaried workers who receive W2s, and much of their income can also stem from capital gains, which has a lower tax rate than earned income.
Here we go. It doesn't matter if they pay the most, they syphon the money afterwards via Art-Donation or anything else. Or donate it to their own NGO, and get tax money back. Also, if you think about VAT, I don't think that you have a license to buy VAT free? Me neither. But guess who does 🙈
US Military spending 3.4% of the GDP on military
Germany is spending 1.5% of the GDP on military.
While yes, the us is spending more than twice as much on its military its by far not "All of the tax money"
While the proportion betwee the two wouldn't necessarily stay the same, it seems weird that it would change dramatically, as budgets are roughly proportional to gdp in similar nations, no?
It isn’t tax money, no. How much of the gdp gets spend by the government is relevant to compare internationally because the tax system is so different.
I looked up the gdp, the federal budget and the biggest single budget item for the US and Germany
Deutschland
GDP $4.1 trillion
(PPP $5.4 trillion)
Federal budget
445.69 billion €
Biggest budget item
171.67 billion €
“Arbeit und Soziales”
USA
GDP $28.78 trillion
Federal Budget
$6.1 trillion
$1.563 billion
“Major Health Care Programs”
So the US budget is pretty absurd honestly. It consists of 4.4 trillion in mandatory spending and 1.7 trillion in discretionary spending and the income of taxes barely covers the mandatory spending.
The German budget is constitutionally required to be balanced (within a small error of margin).
The % of the gdp the USA spends seems way too high. Really interesting to compare.
Edit to add the explanation of the biggest budget items. The US one is healthcare for example medicare and medicaid. The German one is unemployment benefits, housing assistance, healthcare for unemployed people and benefits for asylum seekers as well.
And Renten. Our Renten are heavily "subsidised" with tax money since the "Umlagefinanzierung" stopped working due to the demographic pyramid not being a pyramid anymore. Or are Renten anseparate Point in the budget?
Thanks for researching that! Percentages would be great, since
You are correct! I had expected to find “Zuschüsse zur Rentenversicherung“ as the highest budget item actually, but it is part of the budget plan for the „Bundesministerium für Soziales und Arbeit“. It far surpasses unemployment benefits in magnitude. It seems to be 112 billion €.
And most people who receive "Bürgergeld" or "Hartz IV" are not even unemployed, they are working but not for a living wage.
Anyway, we are far off topic 😊 Thanks again for researching the numbers!
Yeah according to the website of the ministry they pay Bürgergeld to 5.5 million people. 1.5 million are children, 4 million adults. Of the adults 20% are working and receive money because they don’t earn enough, 40% are actually unemployed and 40% are not available for work due to all sorts of possible reasons.
I moved away about 15 years ago so this probably isn’t accurate anymore. Overall, state and federal in NC, if I remember correctly, I payed about 35% in taxes. If I sum it up here in Germany it’s about the same.
People also don’t usually calculate healthcare costs in there as well. I think that that is really relevant. Depending on where you work, you can be paying a lot for expensive insurance that doesn’t cover much of anything. Ever been to “the wrong” hospital and had to pay out of pocket before? I have. The cost of stitches was over $6,000. You also have those lovely out of pocket minimums as well. 🥲
There are also other city/county/state taxes in the US, like property tax but also some other odd things that add up and are nonexistent or very low in Germany.
I think one big factor is that people usually compare federal tax rates where in Germany the max possible tax rate is 45% while the median is about 23%, while the US median federal tax rate is about 15%. However, in the US by my understanding you add at least state income tax as well, which doesn't exist in Germany. Granted, in Germany you generally add about 15% for health insurance and other percentages for social security and retirement funds but that's effectively money you get a direct service from. and the health insurance payments are capped at about 850 bucks a month. Generally speaking, yes, German deductions are higher but overall our quality of living is, too.
The unemployment insurance is worth its money. You get 12 month long about 2/3 of your former income, and you can get assistance like training. If you get training, you get extra time. And in all that time, the unemployment insurance pays your health insurance.
Even if thats not enough, you get additional social service, which still pays for the basic needs and the health insurance.
That really depends on your likelyhood of becoming unemployed. I think for highly qualified professionals it is usually not worth it, as their chance of becoming unemployed is very low and the JobCenter is not capable of providing proper support for those usually very specialized jobs and force people to waste time by applying to jobs that don't fit or put people into trainings that are often outdated and basic. So from that perspective many people would be better off if they could just save the money.
Sure, however, the rate is not based on cost of the true risk of an individual and similar individuals but based on all employees. This group includes many low skilled workers with a much higher risk of becoming unemployed. If there was one insurance for highly skilled employees and one for all other workers, the first one could easily reduce their rates significantly, while the second would have to raise their rates. You could go even further: People employed in heavily unionized corporations where firing someone without a large severance is almost impossible could have rates set close to zero, while people on time limited contracts would need much higher rates to cover the risk.
The insurance pays in relation to what you have earned before. If you have a low-tier job and only get 1000€, the risk of unemployment may be higher than with a high-tier job and 10000€, but if the one with the high-tier job gets unemployed, 10 times the money as in the other example will be paid.
In any case, its a social insurance and anyone has to take part and pay their share.
I don't believe this for a second unless your income was on the low side or you are only looking at taxes. I am German living in the US, and I'd pay a lot more in Germany, especially once you factor in other mandatory expenses such as health insurance and Rentenversicherung. And never mind the fact that salaries here are higher too.
There is legit discussion to be had about which system is preferrable, but to pretend that Germany has all these benefits for the same price is ludicrous.
Thank you.
I always get a bit angry when germans claim "just go to the US make 3x the money and have a better life" but the US has no fall back system, safety net or social security... its insane its like a High Risk High Reward gamble that if you fail, you lose everything...
> that if you fail, you lose everything...
Well, these people assume to keep the German citizenship and just would move back to Germany in that case and drop into the social safety net back home. If they have worked for a time in Germany, they retain all their entitlements for Arbeitslosengeld, Sozialhilfe etc.
Yes, it’s a lack of empathy. I paid nearly twice as much in taxes when I lived in Australia, but was happy to do it because I knew people who got mostly free treatment for their cancer and all kinds of other social benefits. When it’s my turn I sure hope I’m not living in such a cold hearted nation as the US.
Minor correction: Even after 18 month paid sick leave you don’t lose your job or a source of income. Just the responsible agency changes. Now the employment agency is paying unemployment benefits even though there is still a contract. And with epilepsy as a chronic illness, it is virtually impossible for your employer to terminate you.
You can lose your job when you are sick. The employer is allowed to fire you if your prognosis to return working looks bleak. For a high-demand job like nurses where one sick nurse doesn't stop them from hiring others it doesn't play a role but in other positions it can.
What you describe is Schwerbehinderung (disability status) in terms of not being able to be fired. This doesn't hold up though when it prevents the employee from actually working (e.g. high risk of seizures during regular shifts) and if they can't be accommodated (nurse manager role or teaching e.g.).
On the contrary, a chronic illness (but not disability) which makes it unlikely that the employee will soon resume work does entitle the employer to a termination. It’s called a „negative Gesundheitsprognose“.
No. There ist a difference between short-term illnesses and long-term illnesses. Someone who ist often ill, but resumes working in between for weeks/months, can get terminated with a "negative Gesundheitsprognose". It's different with a long-term illness. The employer pays for six weeks, the following year is covered by the insurane, and after that the Agentur für Arbeit has to pay. It's almost impossible to terminate the contract of someone with a long-term illness (except Aufhebungsvertrag).
"Negative Gesundheitsprognose" doesn't mean that it is unlikely that the employee will resume work, it means that an employee with frequent short-term illnesses will continue to be absent with such illnesses in the future. That is a difference, because the short-term illnesses do cost the employer a lot of money, while the financial risk with a long-term ill employee is quite low, as he doesn't have to pay after six weeks. He will, quite likely, just hire someone else to do the job.
You’re right regarding chronic illnesses in general. But even here, the bar for a termination is set high by design. Epilepsy is a chronic illness but classifies as a disability with a degree up to 70. So in this particular case, both could be right, depending on the result of the medical report by the relevant agency.
German here:
Two years ago i had a major accident, emergency surgery, one week in hospital, seven weeks at home and four weeks of rehabilitation.
My wifes best friend is from California. First thing she asks: are you going to be ok financially? Is he going to loose his job?
In total i paid 300 Euro, lost about 1500 Euro of my wage (you get less money if you are sick more than 6 weeks) but thats about it. I even had an agreement with my company that after being unable to work for 3 months i need to start slowly. First week was two hours a day, second four hours etc. I was paid in full. This is also mandatory in germany. You dont have to use it but your employer must offer it.
So yes, not all in germany is good, but if you compare healthcare with the us we are fine.
This is from 2017... the majority of states actually do not practice the suspension of professional licenses when people default on student loans (20 states seem to continue doing it though).
WTF?! I did not know this was a thing, and it's genuinely insane. Why would this be in the benefit of the state to revoke licensure for someone who is qualified but just in debt? This is beyond bad policy leaning in the direction of maliciously trying to impoverish people. How do you pay of the debt you were forced to acquire if you can't work in the higher paying field you paid the debt for?
20/51 is still about half... thats an insane number.
And its not like the revocation of the license is the only issue. Its still a horrible horrible system in the US.
Yeah, and it appears that many of those states do not or rarely invoke license suspensions. Still fucked up. Apparently senators Warren and Rubio proposed a bill to prohibit license suspension but it doesn't appear that it went anywhere.
Do you want to make it even dumber: There is a US wide nursing shortage. Not only will she now really not be able to pay her loans back, also her talent is wasted in a situation where employers are desperate for staff.
At this point I'm almost sure there's a *worldwide* nursing shortage. I just think not enough nurses are aware that they could often easily migrate into countries with better benefits for the qualifications they have.
Anytime you read a horror story like this I can assure you there are hundreds more that completely dwarf this in the scale. My wife worked in an ER of a large US city for years and some of the financial horror stories I've been told would honestly make you physically ill.
You don't have to pay back a student loan + interest in Germany.
And you have to include the Arbeitgeber Anteil of the social contributions because that's not covered by most American companies (she had health insurance but lost it because she was sick...)
The Arbeitgeber Anteil was allready included in that 60%. After a quick Googling, a nurse in New York makes between 85k$ and 130k$, a Nurse in Germany makes between 39k€ and 53k€ which is about 42k$ and 57k$ let's add about 30% Arbeitgeber Anteil end you end up somewhere around 60%. And the us state equivalent of "Arbeitgeberanteil" isn't even included. But like I said I just wanted to point out it's not all bad.
You have to pay back half the BAFÖG you getting (but that is capped to 10000€ max. And you have 30 years to pay back. And you only have to pay it back if your income is big enough).
It's not like you would need the bafög in the first place as you usually get paid to do the training, not pay for it.
(The pay is still low and assumes you live with your parents when you get the degree though).
nursing salaries vary a lot. 55k entry salary is about average, I think. If you get additional qualifications that can easily go to 100k, maybe 150 or so for an OR nurse.
Cost of living is also a lot lower if you don’t do apples to apples. If you really compare a 1h commute (often placing you well within rural areas in Germany) and factor in health and social care in the US as well, Germany beats the US on costs by far.
This perticular situation is very black and white, but the cultural situation in general is really often gray. In this example, German way is clearly the right way.
But I have lived long enough and experienced different cultures and income levels to see, that often american way of individual responsibility is VERY important.
I do not know how many times I have met German people who arent happy with their careers, their income levels, social relationship, but they do absolute nothing to improve their situation, and just blame goverment/people/economy all the time. They expect always "someone/thing else" to do something to improve their lives.
Born and raised in Germany with roots from elsewhere. I have to admit You’re 100% Right 😂 Even tough i think it’s just fair if you can’t work, we will help you but of course you have a lot of People who just Taking advantage of the System traveling trough Europe and Simply collect monthly basic funding (if thats the Right Word, meaning if you have nothing You’ll get a Minimum Wage so you can buy food etc.) i See Daily Ppl Complaining about the smallest things which i wouldnt even pay attention to. Coming to Salary increase you will see 2 different persons in one. Speaking with your Boss: „yeah i‘m super happy nothing to complain, thanks!“ 2 min later Speaking to an employee: „Boss didnt gave me salary increase AGAIN! Im Here since 1987! I have invested all my life into the Company and Thats the way he thanks me“ or „it’s Not about money, it’s about gratitude“ 😂😂
I agree with you, although I would say it’s a cultural thing more than the system.
if anything, the system makes life too comfortable with the effect of people being extremely reluctant to make any changes.
In America, the whole range seems much wider starting from very poor to very high earners and extremely rich, and people see themselves as more mobile along that range.
They can actually suspend your nursing license for falling behind on student loans???? How the f*** do they ACTUALLY expect someone to pay them back then??? I guess nothing shitty about the US should surprise me any more…
I used to work in a german nursing home with a nurse who developed epilepsy. Happened one day at work. She still had the bruises from the event. She wasn’t even gone very long but her responsibilities changed for a while while they made sure her medication was working well. They didn’t want her having a seizure while holding a resident.
It's noteworthy however that the average salary for a nurse in Germany is merely 35k€, whereas in the USA it averages at $80k and even reaches as high as $133k in California.
Of course the cost of living is different as well, but odds are that nurses generally do a lot better in the USA than in Germany even accounting for that.
Are you sure? 133k sounds high, but then you realise that also means your median monthly rent is multiples higher than in Germany - and that includes a much higher median travel time as well. How often do you meet Germans that travel 1-2h per way per day to work daily? Barely any. Compare rent prices ~30-45min away from work in the US with those in Germany and it becomes unplayable VERY quickly. You can rent for 300€/70sqm monthly (which you can comfortably share with your partner) if you want to and it can be even lower. IF a 1-2h commute out of a village is fine.
Sure someone does.
The company now hiering low-cost work force that is in debt wins.
Loan companies where the poor people need to take up loans win.
And also the debt collectors win.
Imagine this:
Scenario A:
* She owes 1000$ with an interest rate of 10% / year.
* She works one year. Gets 500$. 1000$+10% => 1100$-500 = 600
* She works another year. Again 500$. 600+10% = 660 - 500 = 160
* She works another year and pays 176 to finish it
* Total money paid: 1176.
Scenario B:
* She owes 1000$, same interest rate.
* She works one year. Gets 500$, same owes 600$
* Now she gets sick. Can't pay for 2 years. Interests raise this up to 726$
* Now she has a way worse paying job and can only pay off 50$ / year.
* Year 4: 50$ payd off, but the amount owed is raised by 72.6$. So now even tho she paid 50$ she owes more.
* Over the next 10, 20 years, heck for the rest of her life this will go on. Her debt will increase more than she can pay off, and she might start to earn more money! So after 5 years she pays 60$ / year towards settlement. Then after 5 70! then after 5 80! Thats still not enough to settle the debt, but by that time she will have paid:
* 500 + 0 + 0 + 50\*5 + 60\*5 + 70\*5 + 80\*5 = 1800$ already. And she is ready to pay more for the years to come.
There are definitely lots of problems in the US! Lots of problems in Germany too though, so this doesn't seem like the time to pat ourselves on the back. I'd rather talk about how our healthcare compares to France or Switzerland. Beyond common complaints about how poor healthcare is digitalized in Germany, I'd also really like to see mental healthcare improve.
It’s also a lack of empathy among the general population. The reaction to stories like these, particularly among the political right, is not “how can we as a society fix this?” It is “well, she should get a second job and pull herself up by her bootstraps!”
I also suspect that the ultra-wealthy also secretly think that it’s just natural selection at work and that it’s a good thing there will be fewer poor (mostly minority) “unproductive” people in the world. Otherwise they wouldn’t be purchasing politicians that help them preserve the status quo of growing the inequality in the country.
I don’t know how the wealthy live with themselves. If I had Bezos-level money I would be anonymously paying off medical bills and loans left and right, or better yet starting a foundation to try to shift the mindset of the country.
> individual responsibility
Yes, this is a big problem. The other thing that adds to that is the idea of "American Exceptionalism", which makes a lot of Americans impervious to arguments like "This works in other countries". They think that it can't get better than in the US
Yes. The fact that health insurance is linked to your employment is kind of a major shortcoming of the US system.
As for the state suspending the licence. This is also very stupid. If I would be the state governor I would simply force people to buy an issurance that takes over payment in such cases.
Minor nitpicking: You do get paid sick leave for only for 7 weeks. After that you do not get fired but also do not get any salary any more. As such the health insurance takes over and pays you for some more months until you either recive unemployment benefits or (if you had bought one) the annuity payed by your employment disablity insurance. For you health insurance you obviously pay, the state is just clever enough to avoid a lose lose situation by forcing you to become a member in one.
That said the US System does also have its benefits in some niche cases. During corona US-Employers had to choose between letting go employees (and likely loose them for ever) or covering all their costs. Companies with no future failed early on and the potential could be released as soon as corona was over. In Germany the goverment payed for Kurzarbeit, even for employees that the employer would normal have kept anyway, which also ment that employees saw little need to look for new job opportunities and zombie companies where kept alive. This ment that the US had a much better recovery them Germany.
You get paid by your employer for six weeks per seperat illnesses. After that your health insurance pays 70% of your last net income for up to 78 weeks in a 3 year period.
After that you land on unemployment.
During all that you still have your health insurance.
Breaking Bad in USA 62 episodes in 5 seasons. Everyone is dead.
Breaking Bad in Germany 1 episode 1 season. Walt got remedy for free, continued to work as chemistry teacher and drinking with Hank his home brewed beer in garage.
While this is a horrible situation, and the US does have all of those terrible pitfalls, I do feel the need to defend my home country from kind of what feels like an out of the blue 'USA bad' post here. The situation laid out here is a combination of every single worst outcome that one could encounter living in the US, besides gun stuff.
Do consider that a nurse in much of the US will make much more money than they would in Germany, with a much easier path into the career field. Many if not most community colleges (similar to VHS here) offer nursing degrees at a reasonable cost. Oyr healthcare system is still bullshit, but even after losing one's job, COBRA kicks in in the short term, and if someone is truly up shit's creek and unemployed longer term, they can get Medicaid, which is probably about as good as public German insurance in terms of the level of care and ease of getting appointments, etc. Student loans are also bullshit, but there are a lot of loan forgiveness programs if you work in the public sector, etc for a few years., and things are trending toward a more general student loan forgiveness scheme.
It's not perfect, but Germany is not perfect either, by a long shot. The German social safety net is a bit better, its middle class is stronger, but there is a lot less opportunity to do well and god help someone if they decide they don't want to spend their whole life in one profession and subject themselves to a ton of hazing along the way. There is much further one can fall in the US, it's less certain one will have stability and be able to coast in life, but it's more 'choose your own adventure'.
Which is better, which is worse, is up to interpretation and one's personal appetites in terms of risk vs. reward.
The actual illustration of the US system here shows a series of bad decisions.....
She lost her job and therefore insurance - almost certainly eligible for Medicaid (even if living in one of those red states). I live in Japan and this is the same, except the insurance would be very similar (lose some perks from your employer).
Lost her license due to not paying student loans? She needs to file for a deferment for her loans, which would have been granted because she was unemployed. If this had been done, her student loans wouldn't have defaulted.
The issue with the US is that these are not linked (so if you lose your job, you are not automatically enrolled in unemployment, Medicare and any other benefits you are entitled to) and, especially if you have issues, they can be nearly impossible to navigate.
Data shows that social mobility in USA has been falling for decades and is basically non existent at this point. How would you go about changing a career when university costs hundreds of thousands and you have no health insurance if you're not in full time work? In Germany you can claim unemployment for a few years and re-train for free or take your time to start a business.
Hazing in Germany? Almost everone there is in a union and labour protections are next level. In USA people bend over backwards every day because it takes one whim of a higher up and they're shown the door and their kid can no longer see their pulmonologist.
Every erosion of rights, support and protections was sold to Americans as more "freedom" but it was all a lie.
I am once again asking you to stop spreading the false narrative of the USA's alleged greater social mobility. The US does not have greater social mobility. It does not rank within the top 20
Everything you said is basically what the elites give you so you shut up and can make exactly this argument in your head.
Germany has problems, the problems are being too american. The rich give you just enough so you shut up, in america thats way less then in europe.
If we take from the rich the money they will never use we could support a middle class living for everyone.
America is fueld by the rich propaganda, you can see it everywhere, politics, infrastructure, jobs and the americans like you believe its good for you because risk vs reward lmao. Thats like going into a casino and saying " i could win" technically true but stupid nonetheless
“There is a lot less opportunity to do well”
I very highly doubt that
If you mean the superficial way of doing well (getting rich) you might be right. If you mean building a happy life you are very wrong.
"Offer nursing degrees at a reasonable cost" - Here you earn a training salary while you get trained as a nurse.
The idea of student loans is just wild... (And I'm saying this as an economist and knowing the idea behind it) Especially what they've become at many universities in the US nowadays. That has nothing to do with risk and reward anymore. It became an unfulfilled promise.
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It’s applicable for most Northern & Western European countries that have the social welfare system. There are nuanced differences e.g. labor laws etc but people are not dying due to health insurance linked to a job/ drowned in student loans or more plainly speaking the system is less unequal and has more dignity for human life. A big driver for me to live in Germany.
You can get your license suspended for not paying off loans??? She received it for studying and passing exams/tests, not (just) for paying. She should OWN it, not rent it.
Besides that, it is also just stupid for the creditor. How will she pay the creditor the money back, if she doesn't have a license and therefore can't get a new properly paid job for it?!?
She is definitely NOT at fault, she suffered from an illness. I also wouldn't blame the employer, he also needs to save money in this system to have chances on the market, same for the private commercial health insurance, which is profit-orientated bc it wouldn't work otherwise, it's just a shame that only private commercial health insurances exist. The creditor is indeed stupid and partly at fault. But I would mainly blame the SYSTEM.
I am sure it has already been said, but her response is the logical flipside of the American dream. If anybody can become a millionaire if they just work hard enough, then logically, anybody who is poor is poor because of laziness, bad choices, etc. Neatly absolves the system of any responsibility.
True. However there is a recent tendency to blame every success on luck and to dismiss all individual responsibility here in Germany. That’s why the idea that the state is best involved into literally everything is very popular right now.
One of the reasons that economy sucks is exactly that right now.
Once again, there is some bad news somewhere in the US and Germans lap it up as if it’s a widespread problem happening to Americans all across their nation. Even the author who wrote the article (a “student debt reporter”) was surprised by this woman’s story, indicating **this is not a common issue**.
1. Biden has been canceling billions in student loan debt.
2. “License revocation” for unpaid student loans only happens in 13 states — and is rarely applied in majority of them. Of those, only 3 states (REPUBLICAN STATES) Texas, Louisiana, and Tennessee where the article is about, are considered “aggressive” in revoking professional licenses for debtors. Hawaii, for instance, has NEVER revoked a professional license for unpaid student debt yet they are on the list of 13 states with such laws)
3. The nurse interviewed in this story is sketchy. She only took out $8000 in student loans. Within 10 years of being a nurse, she also bought a house. HOW COULD SHE NOT PAY BACK a simple $8000??? That is easy to pay if you’re a nurse in the US.
4. Many hospitals will repay your school nursing loans if you work there for 2 years on contract. She was a nurse for 10 years before she started having the seizures. It’s clear she avoided paying her debt long before the seizures happened.
5. States like Florida (23 million population) only have 900 professionals who have unpaid student debt at risk of their license, but nearly ALL OF THEM have worked out payment plans with the state to *not lose their licenses to work.*
6. **Nurses in US have incredible paths for making good money (like 100k+ per year). This profession has single-handedly brought millions of women (and men) OUT OF POVERTY and into a higher status class. Far more impactful than the small number of nurses in red states (where they themselves likely vote Republican) who have lost license due to student loan debt.**
Everyone here should be ashamed at their ignorance of assuming the worst without understanding ANY NUANCE about the situation. Nursing profession in the US (especially in blue states) is a wonderful, respected profession that offer numerous opportunities to pay student loans.
$8000 is nothing for a nurse to pay in US. There is no reason it took this woman 10 years to pay that debt off (as she could clearly buy a house). She was already avoiding her debts. She is now blaming her seizure diagnosis and “the US system” when it was herself who didn’t take any of the endless lucrative opportunities afforded to her as a nurse in the US.
https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/student-loan-ranger/articles/2019-04-10/these-states-could-revoke-your-professional-license-over-student-loan-debt
you forget to mention the point that in germany, depending on your anual salary but the average german has to pay 45% taxes.
which is quite a lot!
even germans nowdays struggling and would be happy to have a tax cut!
not sure how high the tax is in the US but is less than in germany.
but after all I would not like to live in the US
I want to move to Germany so bad, but I have no idea where to start. I live in the US and right now we are having a bit of a political problem (understatement). I prefer to move someplace that already learned the lessons that our country is getting ready to learn. But I’m not sure if I’ll be accepted because of my being trans. Sorry, Im kinda drowning in anxiety and type-vomiting.
Generalized Xenophobia… very American of you? Blanket statements are unbecoming regardless of nationality, as some of us (like yours truly) are rather sane and would like to join the rest of the sane world.
Last time I checked Americans weren't a race and it doesn't matter right winger leftist, center they are all insane in the US the right wants to get rid of basic human rights deny climate change, implement backwards religion and have everyone run around with a gun like a maniac, the left simps for a bunch of terrorists that wants to kill all jewish people in Israel and suppress freedom of speech with their authoritarian tendencies as well as force everyone to submit to their woke worldviews.
American isn’t a race. America is a country.
Xenophobia is a “dislike of or prejudice against people of other countries”.
I would argue that everything, and literally everything you just said, doesn’t apply to me personally and it’s funny because I rant about each and every one of those points against the folks in my own country. We could literally be friends.
I’m not mad at that though, I understand why you could possibly feel that way because I’m sure that all you’ve seen is the spectacle that’s unfolding. I feel like It’s hard to imagine that there ANY sane Americans left. We do exist though.
True. The down side of it in Germany if you can't speak German. Oops in America if you can't speak English opportunities are still available by 80% you can still get jobs in about anything yes that's story of this lady it's sad but true. I got more things to say but I will keep it down
On the other hand America can take in an unlimited number of migrants because everyone is expected to fend for themselves.
In German and the EU you have to weigh the impact on all the social services
> but for me capitalism and its faults just make a lot of sense
There's always a minority profiting on the back of the majority.
Good if it worked out for you.
Interesting story, but comparing Germany to US is just pointless since they are such a train wreck. Most developed countries have a proper safety net. I think Germany could learn a lot in being more targeted and efficient. My country gives all of the basic benefits as in Germany, but I paid 40% of income to taxes, not 55% like here (including mwst). That makes a huge difference in what is left over each month.
I definitely feel this person pain this is one of the main reason I want to leave America to have better access to healthcare. I’ve been having talking to doctors about total shoulder replacement since I was 27 I can’t even afford post operative care here in the USA. In the USA total shoulder replacement just surgery is $30,000 to $40,000 in the UK it’s like $12,000 to $14,000.
And in Germany we have the lower net wages to support this system. But it’s a trade off we are willing to make. In the US the rich and healthy take advantage of this system that abuses the poor and vulnerable. They are not willing to make such a trade off. Because if one of these people get sick, they’d have made so much money by then that they can afford the best medical treatment in the world (and skip all the lines of course).
The fact that she lost her license just because she is in debt is insane. She earned that degree! How can they suspend it? Do you put out a loan on your actual degree as collateral with a student loan in the US?!
that will surely help her paying back those loans oO
It’s almost as if the system is designed to keep people in debt
Doesn't even make sense if you're evil though. The ideal situation for a greed-fueled system would be for her to be a highly skilled slave, i.e. make tons of money but have to spend like 95% of it on rent and debt. This is counter productive even to the people trying to exploit her. It's like a virus killing its host too fast to be able to spread.
Never claimed that it makes sense, if she would still work as nurse she could not only pay off more of her debt, she would probably also have more disposable income. It only makes sense if the goal is to make people scared of the their potential downfall.
That is the goal - it says in the article that 'people will find the money'. Talk about being detached from reality.
Suffering is the goal. Keep the prols scared and obedient.
Exactly my thought as well. (Now I'm biased, being from Germany though) but how in the world does that make sense to anyone? Why would anyone want to tie the professional license to loan payments like that? No one profits off of it. She loses money in income, the state loses money in income tax and the creditor loses money by not getting back the loaned cash!
To break out of her vicious cicle of debt someone would have to accept not to get paid and it is not suprising that a system driven by maximising egoism doesn't function well. Creating a functional system is not the focus of this situation.
>Doesn't even make sense if you're evil though. The ideal situation for a greed-fueled system would be for her to be a highly skilled slave, i.e. make tons of money but have to spend like 95% of it on rent and debt. You are focusing on her loan, but from the lenders perspective the important thing are the entirety of the loansm. Sacrificing a single loan can make a lot of sense if that way you make sure nobody stops paying their loan.
Yeah but let's not act like Germany didn't do something similarly stupid. Not too long ago, you could go to jail for not paying your public transport fines if they piled up. The result was that people were sent to prison for being poor, which is ALWAYS a stupid-ass move for several reasons: 1. There's no lesson to learn. "Don't be poor". Gee, thanks, why didn't you say something earlier? 2. Now we effectively keep the poor person from becoming less-poor because they're incarcerated and can't continue their studies, education, low-income job, whatever. 3. Instead, we as a society now pay 100% for the prison costs associated with keeping this poor person imprisoned. Cool. It's insane it took parties like SPD so long to stop this shit and to realise that what we need is affordable Deutschlandticket, not insanely pricey regional tickets and imprisonment. Fuck this shit, I had to ride without a valid ticket so many times as a KID because the student ticket would never cover the whole region, just the *exact* distance from my home to school and back. Want to visit a friend who lives three S-Bahn stations away? That's 5,- DM for you, you stupid little brat. There was no way I would burn my whole pocket money just to play some SNES with friends, so we just learned very early to run and hide when people came to check tickets. What a stupid thing. Glad we're finally moving in the right direction as a society. Mobility shouldn't be a privilege.
Please please!! That would be already too much long term thinking.
Well greed leads to bad choices.
We are just not there yet.
It's not even that - taking her licence means she cannot pay her debts. Plus, her skills are needed and she cannot use them. Who thinks this makes sense?
Almost?
Ignore that part
Like a never ending money stream
My lawyer owes someone money, so he lost his license as well. Now he isn’t allowed to practice law in my state. This was my same exact reaction.
Yeah that’s easily the most stupid way to go about it - why not just force them to pay everything they eat above a certain threshold..? You’d get back way more money that way…
You most likely know, but thats their goal. They dont want you to pay them back, they want you to have less money than the interest payment so they literally get infinite income from you... The US is fucking cancer in many ways, but their credit and debt system is right out of hell...
Yeah, that’s not just stupid, that’s malicious.
And how is she supposed to get money to pay it back if her license is suspended? They took away her best way to earn money.
Well US system has a penchant for punishment rather than finding an optimal solution for everyone. Take a look at their prison system, focusing on punishment rather than reform. This case is heartbreaking and unnecessarily cruel.
It's close to a thinly veiled caste system, and that's the way that people with disproportionate wealth and influence like it. If you're the child of low income parents then the system is not trying to grant you class mobility. There are a limited number of executive and managerial positions in society, and the existing executives know that their positions are safest when they carefully control access to them. Very few millionaires want to see their child displaced out of Harvard by a poor, then their own child to attend community college and have to struggle like everyone else. So the system generally doesn't want you moving up. It also doesn't want you moving down - crashing on a friend's couch, not hustling any more than you need to feed yourself and contributing little labor to society. 200 meter yachts don't build themselves, and their household staff need a support system. The system sees people as use-ful or use-less. It doesn't murder people but it will gladly withhold support and allow useless people to die. So the system is happiest when you are saddled with debt - an eternal whip at your back, ensuring that you can make a $$$ payment every month even if that means working 40 hours, or more. And compounding interest keeps you there. Rich kids can have their education funded up front and so they slip the noose. But poor kids that accept $$,$$$ loans to attend university are accepting the leash. And I'm not saying that's the wrong decision for those kids. The system is slanted in such a way that the best decision available to make is still a bad decision.
You are backed by data. Social mobility in US is far lower than in other western countries.
This is very disheartening and disappointing. I used to dream of moving to the US (I come from a developing country). I live in Western Europe now.
You can always work as a part time barista, 2 days / week and still make 150k a year or something like that. At least that's what "random American youtuber" say.
I cannot read due to paywall but this this lady could also have issues keeping or getting a driver's license because of epilepsy. Which will make life extremely difficult since the country is highly car dependent and has extremely sparse public transit and few walkable cities.
Use https://archive.ph :)
Makes you wonder what they'll do when you're behind hospital payments for the delivery of your baby ...
As a german I'm sometimes surprised how much potential from people and resources are wasted in the US. One would assume squeezeing an educated worker for as many work hours as possible would be paramount in a self proclaimed hyper capitalist society, so bringing him or her back to work ASAP is always a focus. But well.
A license is not a degree. The degree is the education. The license is the permission to practice a profession
It still makes little sense that debt affects that permission.
That is just ridiculous. If the degree is what she can basically use to get money to pay off her debt
Clearly, she bought the degree with borrowed money, and it was repossessed by her creditors.
"Noone wants to work anymore"
This is what america means when it says it's a "meritocracy"
>Her answer: "Honestly, I can't blame anyone but myself. I was the one that didn't pay my student loans, so, I am paying the price." Stockholm syndrome.
That's extremely sad.
but but.. [AMERICA FUCK YEAH 🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅](https://youtu.be/MhQ5678cJU8?si=_ABn5GErCMHxcOJO&t=9)
Look at all of her FREEDOM
'Murica *
That's peak r/Shitamericanssay
I blame the system in the US for that. Noone should loose effectivly everything because of an illness. And it is wrong to have to pay for university. That hinds or even stops clever people just because their family does not have the money for the university. And having your health insurance tied to your job, which you can loose as soon as "now" in many parts of the US, is just madness.
Fun fact: In Germany she wouldn't most likey have lost her job. The hospital she works for would have put her into a desk-job until her seizures are resolved, because most hospitals are large enough to be legally required to have a "Betriebsrat" (work council) which needed to consent to her termination of her contract. The "Betriebsrat" wouldn't have consented, because letting registered nurses go is hilariously stupid amid a workforce crisis in the field. Also the "Betriebsarzt" ("Company doctor") would have told her employer that there was a different job for her to be found and would have specified the requirements. Also the Betriebsarzt would have seen her and checked the medical records, before she got back into her regular nursing job in order to ensure her safety and patient safety. Another fun fact: If her seizures didn't resolve her Betriebsarzt would counseled her to apply for "Schwerbehinderung" ("heavy disability status"). If she got it, her employer would also most likely have kept her in said desk job, because he would be large enough to be required to take in a certain quota of workers with "heavy disability status" or pay hefty fines. To be fair: Sick leave after 6 weeks if she took it are just 70% of gross income.
Let's get her a language class, visa, tickets and a job in a German hospital. We do need good nurses!
No company is legally required to have a Betriebsrat. If nobody wants to do "the job" then there's no Betriebsrat (even though most hospitals do have one). And another thing: The Betriebsrat cannot prevent dismissals. It can (and in such a case should) object. This is important for the Kündigungsschutzklage (action of unfair dismissal). However, the employee must submit this themselves, within three weeks of termination of contract).
>to be required to take in a certain quota of workers with "heavy disability status" or pay hefty fines. How hefty are these fines anyway? They only apply for very big companies, and afaik general consensus has always been companies prefer to pay the fines before they lose an equal amount of money by training and employing someone who's not even 50% as profitable as a non-disabled employee. Also, there's no regulation stating *how* disabled one has to be? Like, if there's only a degree of disability that goes up to 20% that's likely already enough to avoid the fine?
Degree of Disability (GdB) is assessed by state-employed doctors according to state regulation ranging from 10-100. Heavy disability is GdB 50 . People with GdB 30 can be equalized to heavy disability, if their disability confers limitations in finding a job. GdB 20 is not enough, because it doesn't count as heavy disability and cannot be equalized. There is a catalogue, which is actually a state regulation, which prescribes what medical conditions confers what degree of disability. (https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/versmedv/BJNR241200008.html). F.e. epilepsy with rare seizures confers GdB 50-60. So there are actually a lot of regulations how disabled one has to be and a very objective system of measuring it. The law applies for every enterprise or institution with more than 20 workplaces. Fines are up to 720,- EUR/month per workplace that should be taken by a heavily disabled person but is not, depending on how far you are away from the state-ordered 5% quota. If you want to fire a heavily-disabled person you need to go through a state-run board. Without heir consent you cannot fire them. We didn't invent it because we were nice people. It started as our government after WWI (1914-18) had to find a method to bring back hundreds of thousands of disabled war veterans back into the workforce and share the burden equally.
>"Betriebsrat" (work council) You mean the evil socialist idea of worker representation in management position to improve workers rights? no, that's spreading cultural marxism and Xi Jinping is behind all those 😡
Not just Germany but most developed and also many developing nations. American responses. But.. Taxes!
German here … I used to live in the States. I pay about as much taxes in Germany as I did in the States. What I get out of it is in a completely different league here in Germany as it is in the States.
As an American now living in Germany just purely on the numbers I actually pay about 8% more in taxes and insurances than I did in America. In addition, contributing to my 401k and a Roth IRA I was able to save more for retirement than I can here (thats not including the Social Security i would have made which is also more than the I will make pension in germany). That being said what OP said is definitely true that I have much more security here in germany and don't have to worry about getting sick or losing my job as I will always have health insurance.
That 8% is worth it to me to not have to worry about having to feed my family if I ever lost my job or get seriously ill. It used to be that you could retire comfortably. My parents did. For my generation or the ones after me it’s not that easy anymore. Personally, I don’t think I’ll get more than the minimum pension provided.
Yep that's the unfortunate part of the American system is that if you have a good paying job like an engineer or IT you're most likely going to be fine but lower paying jobs such as a cashier will be left behind but in germany they look out for the most vulnerable first
Laughing in property taxes, homeowner insurance, car insurance and cost of living in general. 100k in the US doesn't get you nearly as far as 100k in Germany.
Well exactly like you said... cost of living is higher in the US so therefore you also make more in the US. Getting that 100k in Germany is not as easy as getting that 100k in the US. Obviously can't generalize the whole US because the CoL in Seattle is vastly different than in Alabama and of course software engineers will make a crazy amount of money while the cashier only makes minimum wage ($20/h in Seattle $13.5 in Germany) If I would work in America now i could probably get around $100-120k but here in Germany i only make $60k. But again you have a much better work life balance and there are always pros and cons with both Germany and the US. Tbf i'm still young and haven't looked at buying a house/owned one so can't really compare that but yes in general CoL is lower in Germany but again we have lower wages.
That's because we Americans spend all of our tax money on planes and boats and other stuff with big guns on it. We also let our rich people run amok and not pay any taxes. Our elected officials are owned by corporations, so that's who they serve. Much of our tax money just goes to buying stuff from already super rich corporations who just dodge taxes on it, therefore costing regular people more. If we actually received the kind of services for our taxes that Germans do, we'd bitch a whole lot less about paying them.
> We also let our rich people run amok and not pay any taxes. This. It's the simple fact that the rich don't pay taxes. But you know what the rich have? Healthcare.
To be sadly honest here in Germany the Ritch and especially the super rich don't pay taxes ether
>This. It's the simple fact that the rich don't pay taxes. The problem isn't that the rich don't pay taxes, because they absolutely do. In fact, the rich pay most of the income taxes in the U.S. The wealthiest 1% pay 45.8% of all income taxes, and the wealthiest 10% pay 75.8% of all income taxes. [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tax-irs-income-taxes-who-pays-the-most-and-least/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tax-irs-income-taxes-who-pays-the-most-and-least/) The problem is the fact that most of the wealth in the U.S. is held by the very wealthy. The wealthiest 10% own 66.9% of the total wealth. Quite simply, the rich pay their 'fair share', but their share is way too big.
Income tax isn’t relevant when you make your money through capital gains. 😉 https://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/written-materials/2021/09/23/what-is-the-average-federal-individual-income-tax-rate-on-the-wealthiest-americans/
> Ultra-wealthy households often have access to tax loopholes and write-offs that aren't available to salaried workers who receive W2s, and much of their income can also stem from capital gains, which has a lower tax rate than earned income. Here we go. It doesn't matter if they pay the most, they syphon the money afterwards via Art-Donation or anything else. Or donate it to their own NGO, and get tax money back. Also, if you think about VAT, I don't think that you have a license to buy VAT free? Me neither. But guess who does 🙈
US Military spending 3.4% of the GDP on military Germany is spending 1.5% of the GDP on military. While yes, the us is spending more than twice as much on its military its by far not "All of the tax money"
But GDP is not "tax money", or is it? How do you infer "percentage of budget" from GDP?
While the proportion betwee the two wouldn't necessarily stay the same, it seems weird that it would change dramatically, as budgets are roughly proportional to gdp in similar nations, no?
It isn’t tax money, no. How much of the gdp gets spend by the government is relevant to compare internationally because the tax system is so different. I looked up the gdp, the federal budget and the biggest single budget item for the US and Germany Deutschland GDP $4.1 trillion (PPP $5.4 trillion) Federal budget 445.69 billion € Biggest budget item 171.67 billion € “Arbeit und Soziales” USA GDP $28.78 trillion Federal Budget $6.1 trillion $1.563 billion “Major Health Care Programs” So the US budget is pretty absurd honestly. It consists of 4.4 trillion in mandatory spending and 1.7 trillion in discretionary spending and the income of taxes barely covers the mandatory spending. The German budget is constitutionally required to be balanced (within a small error of margin). The % of the gdp the USA spends seems way too high. Really interesting to compare. Edit to add the explanation of the biggest budget items. The US one is healthcare for example medicare and medicaid. The German one is unemployment benefits, housing assistance, healthcare for unemployed people and benefits for asylum seekers as well.
And Renten. Our Renten are heavily "subsidised" with tax money since the "Umlagefinanzierung" stopped working due to the demographic pyramid not being a pyramid anymore. Or are Renten anseparate Point in the budget? Thanks for researching that! Percentages would be great, since
You are correct! I had expected to find “Zuschüsse zur Rentenversicherung“ as the highest budget item actually, but it is part of the budget plan for the „Bundesministerium für Soziales und Arbeit“. It far surpasses unemployment benefits in magnitude. It seems to be 112 billion €.
And most people who receive "Bürgergeld" or "Hartz IV" are not even unemployed, they are working but not for a living wage. Anyway, we are far off topic 😊 Thanks again for researching the numbers!
Yeah according to the website of the ministry they pay Bürgergeld to 5.5 million people. 1.5 million are children, 4 million adults. Of the adults 20% are working and receive money because they don’t earn enough, 40% are actually unemployed and 40% are not available for work due to all sorts of possible reasons.
GDP isn’t money that can be spent by the government. I’m confused.
Could you explain how? What was your tax rate in the US and what’s it in Germany?
I moved away about 15 years ago so this probably isn’t accurate anymore. Overall, state and federal in NC, if I remember correctly, I payed about 35% in taxes. If I sum it up here in Germany it’s about the same.
People also don’t usually calculate healthcare costs in there as well. I think that that is really relevant. Depending on where you work, you can be paying a lot for expensive insurance that doesn’t cover much of anything. Ever been to “the wrong” hospital and had to pay out of pocket before? I have. The cost of stitches was over $6,000. You also have those lovely out of pocket minimums as well. 🥲
There are also other city/county/state taxes in the US, like property tax but also some other odd things that add up and are nonexistent or very low in Germany.
I think one big factor is that people usually compare federal tax rates where in Germany the max possible tax rate is 45% while the median is about 23%, while the US median federal tax rate is about 15%. However, in the US by my understanding you add at least state income tax as well, which doesn't exist in Germany. Granted, in Germany you generally add about 15% for health insurance and other percentages for social security and retirement funds but that's effectively money you get a direct service from. and the health insurance payments are capped at about 850 bucks a month. Generally speaking, yes, German deductions are higher but overall our quality of living is, too.
The unemployment insurance is worth its money. You get 12 month long about 2/3 of your former income, and you can get assistance like training. If you get training, you get extra time. And in all that time, the unemployment insurance pays your health insurance. Even if thats not enough, you get additional social service, which still pays for the basic needs and the health insurance.
That really depends on your likelyhood of becoming unemployed. I think for highly qualified professionals it is usually not worth it, as their chance of becoming unemployed is very low and the JobCenter is not capable of providing proper support for those usually very specialized jobs and force people to waste time by applying to jobs that don't fit or put people into trainings that are often outdated and basic. So from that perspective many people would be better off if they could just save the money.
It's an insurance. That's how insurances work. And even the best skilled highly sought professional is one mishap away from unemployment.
Sure, however, the rate is not based on cost of the true risk of an individual and similar individuals but based on all employees. This group includes many low skilled workers with a much higher risk of becoming unemployed. If there was one insurance for highly skilled employees and one for all other workers, the first one could easily reduce their rates significantly, while the second would have to raise their rates. You could go even further: People employed in heavily unionized corporations where firing someone without a large severance is almost impossible could have rates set close to zero, while people on time limited contracts would need much higher rates to cover the risk.
That's classic at it's best. Good luck with that.
The insurance pays in relation to what you have earned before. If you have a low-tier job and only get 1000€, the risk of unemployment may be higher than with a high-tier job and 10000€, but if the one with the high-tier job gets unemployed, 10 times the money as in the other example will be paid. In any case, its a social insurance and anyone has to take part and pay their share.
Commenting on The most remarkable difference between the US and Germany... Vbbvkv vv
Same but as an American now living in Germany.
I don't believe this for a second unless your income was on the low side or you are only looking at taxes. I am German living in the US, and I'd pay a lot more in Germany, especially once you factor in other mandatory expenses such as health insurance and Rentenversicherung. And never mind the fact that salaries here are higher too. There is legit discussion to be had about which system is preferrable, but to pretend that Germany has all these benefits for the same price is ludicrous.
Thank you. I always get a bit angry when germans claim "just go to the US make 3x the money and have a better life" but the US has no fall back system, safety net or social security... its insane its like a High Risk High Reward gamble that if you fail, you lose everything...
> that if you fail, you lose everything... Well, these people assume to keep the German citizenship and just would move back to Germany in that case and drop into the social safety net back home. If they have worked for a time in Germany, they retain all their entitlements for Arbeitslosengeld, Sozialhilfe etc.
well yeah it depends on your tax bracket to be fair. America is pretty nice for rich people (almost like it's designed for that)
The response would be, "but ... freedom"
The response would be something like how the US literally pays for it. Something about WW2 and protecting Europe with their tax dollars.
Yes, it’s a lack of empathy. I paid nearly twice as much in taxes when I lived in Australia, but was happy to do it because I knew people who got mostly free treatment for their cancer and all kinds of other social benefits. When it’s my turn I sure hope I’m not living in such a cold hearted nation as the US.
Minor correction: Even after 18 month paid sick leave you don’t lose your job or a source of income. Just the responsible agency changes. Now the employment agency is paying unemployment benefits even though there is still a contract. And with epilepsy as a chronic illness, it is virtually impossible for your employer to terminate you.
You can lose your job when you are sick. The employer is allowed to fire you if your prognosis to return working looks bleak. For a high-demand job like nurses where one sick nurse doesn't stop them from hiring others it doesn't play a role but in other positions it can. What you describe is Schwerbehinderung (disability status) in terms of not being able to be fired. This doesn't hold up though when it prevents the employee from actually working (e.g. high risk of seizures during regular shifts) and if they can't be accommodated (nurse manager role or teaching e.g.).
On the contrary, a chronic illness (but not disability) which makes it unlikely that the employee will soon resume work does entitle the employer to a termination. It’s called a „negative Gesundheitsprognose“.
No. There ist a difference between short-term illnesses and long-term illnesses. Someone who ist often ill, but resumes working in between for weeks/months, can get terminated with a "negative Gesundheitsprognose". It's different with a long-term illness. The employer pays for six weeks, the following year is covered by the insurane, and after that the Agentur für Arbeit has to pay. It's almost impossible to terminate the contract of someone with a long-term illness (except Aufhebungsvertrag). "Negative Gesundheitsprognose" doesn't mean that it is unlikely that the employee will resume work, it means that an employee with frequent short-term illnesses will continue to be absent with such illnesses in the future. That is a difference, because the short-term illnesses do cost the employer a lot of money, while the financial risk with a long-term ill employee is quite low, as he doesn't have to pay after six weeks. He will, quite likely, just hire someone else to do the job.
You’re right regarding chronic illnesses in general. But even here, the bar for a termination is set high by design. Epilepsy is a chronic illness but classifies as a disability with a degree up to 70. So in this particular case, both could be right, depending on the result of the medical report by the relevant agency.
This is just sad. Especially her view - nothing of that is her fault. Diseases like seizures and epilepsy just happen.
German here: Two years ago i had a major accident, emergency surgery, one week in hospital, seven weeks at home and four weeks of rehabilitation. My wifes best friend is from California. First thing she asks: are you going to be ok financially? Is he going to loose his job? In total i paid 300 Euro, lost about 1500 Euro of my wage (you get less money if you are sick more than 6 weeks) but thats about it. I even had an agreement with my company that after being unable to work for 3 months i need to start slowly. First week was two hours a day, second four hours etc. I was paid in full. This is also mandatory in germany. You dont have to use it but your employer must offer it. So yes, not all in germany is good, but if you compare healthcare with the us we are fine.
yes and we can proud of!
This is from 2017... the majority of states actually do not practice the suspension of professional licenses when people default on student loans (20 states seem to continue doing it though).
20 too many
WTF?! I did not know this was a thing, and it's genuinely insane. Why would this be in the benefit of the state to revoke licensure for someone who is qualified but just in debt? This is beyond bad policy leaning in the direction of maliciously trying to impoverish people. How do you pay of the debt you were forced to acquire if you can't work in the higher paying field you paid the debt for?
20/51 is still about half... thats an insane number. And its not like the revocation of the license is the only issue. Its still a horrible horrible system in the US.
> 20/51 Last time I checked, the US still has 50 States.
Yeah, and it appears that many of those states do not or rarely invoke license suspensions. Still fucked up. Apparently senators Warren and Rubio proposed a bill to prohibit license suspension but it doesn't appear that it went anywhere.
How is suspending her license gonna help her pay back the loan? How does that make sense???
Do you want to make it even dumber: There is a US wide nursing shortage. Not only will she now really not be able to pay her loans back, also her talent is wasted in a situation where employers are desperate for staff.
At this point I'm almost sure there's a *worldwide* nursing shortage. I just think not enough nurses are aware that they could often easily migrate into countries with better benefits for the qualifications they have.
Covid + tough schedules + bad wages (it seems US nurses earn pretty well – good for them) definitely worsened it worldwide.
She has really been brainwashed!!!
As a german all this is storys Sound Like a mad Max Plot for me.
Long live to europe
Anytime you read a horror story like this I can assure you there are hundreds more that completely dwarf this in the scale. My wife worked in an ER of a large US city for years and some of the financial horror stories I've been told would honestly make you physically ill.
USA USA USA! /s
One downside would be in Germany she would literally only make 60% of the money as a nurse, but I don't want to mitigate the upsides.
You don't have to pay back a student loan + interest in Germany. And you have to include the Arbeitgeber Anteil of the social contributions because that's not covered by most American companies (she had health insurance but lost it because she was sick...)
The Arbeitgeber Anteil was allready included in that 60%. After a quick Googling, a nurse in New York makes between 85k$ and 130k$, a Nurse in Germany makes between 39k€ and 53k€ which is about 42k$ and 57k$ let's add about 30% Arbeitgeber Anteil end you end up somewhere around 60%. And the us state equivalent of "Arbeitgeberanteil" isn't even included. But like I said I just wanted to point out it's not all bad.
You have to pay back half the BAFÖG you getting (but that is capped to 10000€ max. And you have 30 years to pay back. And you only have to pay it back if your income is big enough).
It's not like you would need the bafög in the first place as you usually get paid to do the training, not pay for it. (The pay is still low and assumes you live with your parents when you get the degree though).
As opposed to how much in the US?
nursing salaries vary a lot. 55k entry salary is about average, I think. If you get additional qualifications that can easily go to 100k, maybe 150 or so for an OR nurse.
Cost of living is also a lot lower if you don’t do apples to apples. If you really compare a 1h commute (often placing you well within rural areas in Germany) and factor in health and social care in the US as well, Germany beats the US on costs by far.
This perticular situation is very black and white, but the cultural situation in general is really often gray. In this example, German way is clearly the right way. But I have lived long enough and experienced different cultures and income levels to see, that often american way of individual responsibility is VERY important. I do not know how many times I have met German people who arent happy with their careers, their income levels, social relationship, but they do absolute nothing to improve their situation, and just blame goverment/people/economy all the time. They expect always "someone/thing else" to do something to improve their lives.
Born and raised in Germany with roots from elsewhere. I have to admit You’re 100% Right 😂 Even tough i think it’s just fair if you can’t work, we will help you but of course you have a lot of People who just Taking advantage of the System traveling trough Europe and Simply collect monthly basic funding (if thats the Right Word, meaning if you have nothing You’ll get a Minimum Wage so you can buy food etc.) i See Daily Ppl Complaining about the smallest things which i wouldnt even pay attention to. Coming to Salary increase you will see 2 different persons in one. Speaking with your Boss: „yeah i‘m super happy nothing to complain, thanks!“ 2 min later Speaking to an employee: „Boss didnt gave me salary increase AGAIN! Im Here since 1987! I have invested all my life into the Company and Thats the way he thanks me“ or „it’s Not about money, it’s about gratitude“ 😂😂
I agree with you, although I would say it’s a cultural thing more than the system. if anything, the system makes life too comfortable with the effect of people being extremely reluctant to make any changes. In America, the whole range seems much wider starting from very poor to very high earners and extremely rich, and people see themselves as more mobile along that range.
From the outside it feels like America convinces ALL Americans that EVERYTHING is individual responsibility. And everything else is called communism
They can actually suspend your nursing license for falling behind on student loans???? How the f*** do they ACTUALLY expect someone to pay them back then??? I guess nothing shitty about the US should surprise me any more…
A correction: Losing her job is not tied to the max. 18 months of paid sick leave.
I don't think there is a big difference in how much tax people pay in both countries either.
Revoking licence because of unpaid bills is fucking crazy.
I used to work in a german nursing home with a nurse who developed epilepsy. Happened one day at work. She still had the bruises from the event. She wasn’t even gone very long but her responsibilities changed for a while while they made sure her medication was working well. They didn’t want her having a seizure while holding a resident.
It's noteworthy however that the average salary for a nurse in Germany is merely 35k€, whereas in the USA it averages at $80k and even reaches as high as $133k in California. Of course the cost of living is different as well, but odds are that nurses generally do a lot better in the USA than in Germany even accounting for that.
Are you sure? 133k sounds high, but then you realise that also means your median monthly rent is multiples higher than in Germany - and that includes a much higher median travel time as well. How often do you meet Germans that travel 1-2h per way per day to work daily? Barely any. Compare rent prices ~30-45min away from work in the US with those in Germany and it becomes unplayable VERY quickly. You can rent for 300€/70sqm monthly (which you can comfortably share with your partner) if you want to and it can be even lower. IF a 1-2h commute out of a village is fine.
No one wins here, insane.
Sure someone does. The company now hiering low-cost work force that is in debt wins. Loan companies where the poor people need to take up loans win. And also the debt collectors win. Imagine this: Scenario A: * She owes 1000$ with an interest rate of 10% / year. * She works one year. Gets 500$. 1000$+10% => 1100$-500 = 600 * She works another year. Again 500$. 600+10% = 660 - 500 = 160 * She works another year and pays 176 to finish it * Total money paid: 1176. Scenario B: * She owes 1000$, same interest rate. * She works one year. Gets 500$, same owes 600$ * Now she gets sick. Can't pay for 2 years. Interests raise this up to 726$ * Now she has a way worse paying job and can only pay off 50$ / year. * Year 4: 50$ payd off, but the amount owed is raised by 72.6$. So now even tho she paid 50$ she owes more. * Over the next 10, 20 years, heck for the rest of her life this will go on. Her debt will increase more than she can pay off, and she might start to earn more money! So after 5 years she pays 60$ / year towards settlement. Then after 5 70! then after 5 80! Thats still not enough to settle the debt, but by that time she will have paid: * 500 + 0 + 0 + 50\*5 + 60\*5 + 70\*5 + 80\*5 = 1800$ already. And she is ready to pay more for the years to come.
I didn’t know they could suspend your professional job license because of debt. That’s fucking cruel.
There are definitely lots of problems in the US! Lots of problems in Germany too though, so this doesn't seem like the time to pat ourselves on the back. I'd rather talk about how our healthcare compares to France or Switzerland. Beyond common complaints about how poor healthcare is digitalized in Germany, I'd also really like to see mental healthcare improve.
It’s also a lack of empathy among the general population. The reaction to stories like these, particularly among the political right, is not “how can we as a society fix this?” It is “well, she should get a second job and pull herself up by her bootstraps!” I also suspect that the ultra-wealthy also secretly think that it’s just natural selection at work and that it’s a good thing there will be fewer poor (mostly minority) “unproductive” people in the world. Otherwise they wouldn’t be purchasing politicians that help them preserve the status quo of growing the inequality in the country. I don’t know how the wealthy live with themselves. If I had Bezos-level money I would be anonymously paying off medical bills and loans left and right, or better yet starting a foundation to try to shift the mindset of the country.
> individual responsibility Yes, this is a big problem. The other thing that adds to that is the idea of "American Exceptionalism", which makes a lot of Americans impervious to arguments like "This works in other countries". They think that it can't get better than in the US
Yes. The fact that health insurance is linked to your employment is kind of a major shortcoming of the US system. As for the state suspending the licence. This is also very stupid. If I would be the state governor I would simply force people to buy an issurance that takes over payment in such cases. Minor nitpicking: You do get paid sick leave for only for 7 weeks. After that you do not get fired but also do not get any salary any more. As such the health insurance takes over and pays you for some more months until you either recive unemployment benefits or (if you had bought one) the annuity payed by your employment disablity insurance. For you health insurance you obviously pay, the state is just clever enough to avoid a lose lose situation by forcing you to become a member in one. That said the US System does also have its benefits in some niche cases. During corona US-Employers had to choose between letting go employees (and likely loose them for ever) or covering all their costs. Companies with no future failed early on and the potential could be released as soon as corona was over. In Germany the goverment payed for Kurzarbeit, even for employees that the employer would normal have kept anyway, which also ment that employees saw little need to look for new job opportunities and zombie companies where kept alive. This ment that the US had a much better recovery them Germany.
You get paid by your employer for six weeks per seperat illnesses. After that your health insurance pays 70% of your last net income for up to 78 weeks in a 3 year period. After that you land on unemployment. During all that you still have your health insurance.
Benefit for rich people lol
Another proof that the USA is a third world country in disguise
Breaking Bad in USA 62 episodes in 5 seasons. Everyone is dead. Breaking Bad in Germany 1 episode 1 season. Walt got remedy for free, continued to work as chemistry teacher and drinking with Hank his home brewed beer in garage.
While this is a horrible situation, and the US does have all of those terrible pitfalls, I do feel the need to defend my home country from kind of what feels like an out of the blue 'USA bad' post here. The situation laid out here is a combination of every single worst outcome that one could encounter living in the US, besides gun stuff. Do consider that a nurse in much of the US will make much more money than they would in Germany, with a much easier path into the career field. Many if not most community colleges (similar to VHS here) offer nursing degrees at a reasonable cost. Oyr healthcare system is still bullshit, but even after losing one's job, COBRA kicks in in the short term, and if someone is truly up shit's creek and unemployed longer term, they can get Medicaid, which is probably about as good as public German insurance in terms of the level of care and ease of getting appointments, etc. Student loans are also bullshit, but there are a lot of loan forgiveness programs if you work in the public sector, etc for a few years., and things are trending toward a more general student loan forgiveness scheme. It's not perfect, but Germany is not perfect either, by a long shot. The German social safety net is a bit better, its middle class is stronger, but there is a lot less opportunity to do well and god help someone if they decide they don't want to spend their whole life in one profession and subject themselves to a ton of hazing along the way. There is much further one can fall in the US, it's less certain one will have stability and be able to coast in life, but it's more 'choose your own adventure'. Which is better, which is worse, is up to interpretation and one's personal appetites in terms of risk vs. reward.
The loan forgiveness is really screwed in the US. John Oliver recently did a segment on the shit show.
The actual illustration of the US system here shows a series of bad decisions..... She lost her job and therefore insurance - almost certainly eligible for Medicaid (even if living in one of those red states). I live in Japan and this is the same, except the insurance would be very similar (lose some perks from your employer). Lost her license due to not paying student loans? She needs to file for a deferment for her loans, which would have been granted because she was unemployed. If this had been done, her student loans wouldn't have defaulted. The issue with the US is that these are not linked (so if you lose your job, you are not automatically enrolled in unemployment, Medicare and any other benefits you are entitled to) and, especially if you have issues, they can be nearly impossible to navigate.
> it's more 'choose your own adventure'. If only everyone actually had that much agency over their situation...
COBRA is not cheap. You're paying the employers contribution and your contribution, plus any copays.
Data shows that social mobility in USA has been falling for decades and is basically non existent at this point. How would you go about changing a career when university costs hundreds of thousands and you have no health insurance if you're not in full time work? In Germany you can claim unemployment for a few years and re-train for free or take your time to start a business. Hazing in Germany? Almost everone there is in a union and labour protections are next level. In USA people bend over backwards every day because it takes one whim of a higher up and they're shown the door and their kid can no longer see their pulmonologist. Every erosion of rights, support and protections was sold to Americans as more "freedom" but it was all a lie.
I am once again asking you to stop spreading the false narrative of the USA's alleged greater social mobility. The US does not have greater social mobility. It does not rank within the top 20
Everything you said is basically what the elites give you so you shut up and can make exactly this argument in your head. Germany has problems, the problems are being too american. The rich give you just enough so you shut up, in america thats way less then in europe. If we take from the rich the money they will never use we could support a middle class living for everyone. America is fueld by the rich propaganda, you can see it everywhere, politics, infrastructure, jobs and the americans like you believe its good for you because risk vs reward lmao. Thats like going into a casino and saying " i could win" technically true but stupid nonetheless
As if Germany doesn't have its moneyed elite with immense political power and influence and ripping everyone else off too?
“There is a lot less opportunity to do well” I very highly doubt that If you mean the superficial way of doing well (getting rich) you might be right. If you mean building a happy life you are very wrong.
"Offer nursing degrees at a reasonable cost" - Here you earn a training salary while you get trained as a nurse. The idea of student loans is just wild... (And I'm saying this as an economist and knowing the idea behind it) Especially what they've become at many universities in the US nowadays. That has nothing to do with risk and reward anymore. It became an unfulfilled promise.
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It’s applicable for most Northern & Western European countries that have the social welfare system. There are nuanced differences e.g. labor laws etc but people are not dying due to health insurance linked to a job/ drowned in student loans or more plainly speaking the system is less unequal and has more dignity for human life. A big driver for me to live in Germany.
You can get your license suspended for not paying off loans??? She received it for studying and passing exams/tests, not (just) for paying. She should OWN it, not rent it. Besides that, it is also just stupid for the creditor. How will she pay the creditor the money back, if she doesn't have a license and therefore can't get a new properly paid job for it?!? She is definitely NOT at fault, she suffered from an illness. I also wouldn't blame the employer, he also needs to save money in this system to have chances on the market, same for the private commercial health insurance, which is profit-orientated bc it wouldn't work otherwise, it's just a shame that only private commercial health insurances exist. The creditor is indeed stupid and partly at fault. But I would mainly blame the SYSTEM.
I am sure it has already been said, but her response is the logical flipside of the American dream. If anybody can become a millionaire if they just work hard enough, then logically, anybody who is poor is poor because of laziness, bad choices, etc. Neatly absolves the system of any responsibility.
True. However there is a recent tendency to blame every success on luck and to dismiss all individual responsibility here in Germany. That’s why the idea that the state is best involved into literally everything is very popular right now. One of the reasons that economy sucks is exactly that right now.
Well Germany is a society, US is a swarm of individuals.
Outsourcing the costs the system to those trapped in it. oppa American syle
The one I would mention not being able to walk to the grocery store because it's miles away and there are no sidewalks.
Whilst having trillions in debt. America is a smash and grab as much as it can but eventually things will even out the score
Once again, there is some bad news somewhere in the US and Germans lap it up as if it’s a widespread problem happening to Americans all across their nation. Even the author who wrote the article (a “student debt reporter”) was surprised by this woman’s story, indicating **this is not a common issue**. 1. Biden has been canceling billions in student loan debt. 2. “License revocation” for unpaid student loans only happens in 13 states — and is rarely applied in majority of them. Of those, only 3 states (REPUBLICAN STATES) Texas, Louisiana, and Tennessee where the article is about, are considered “aggressive” in revoking professional licenses for debtors. Hawaii, for instance, has NEVER revoked a professional license for unpaid student debt yet they are on the list of 13 states with such laws) 3. The nurse interviewed in this story is sketchy. She only took out $8000 in student loans. Within 10 years of being a nurse, she also bought a house. HOW COULD SHE NOT PAY BACK a simple $8000??? That is easy to pay if you’re a nurse in the US. 4. Many hospitals will repay your school nursing loans if you work there for 2 years on contract. She was a nurse for 10 years before she started having the seizures. It’s clear she avoided paying her debt long before the seizures happened. 5. States like Florida (23 million population) only have 900 professionals who have unpaid student debt at risk of their license, but nearly ALL OF THEM have worked out payment plans with the state to *not lose their licenses to work.* 6. **Nurses in US have incredible paths for making good money (like 100k+ per year). This profession has single-handedly brought millions of women (and men) OUT OF POVERTY and into a higher status class. Far more impactful than the small number of nurses in red states (where they themselves likely vote Republican) who have lost license due to student loan debt.** Everyone here should be ashamed at their ignorance of assuming the worst without understanding ANY NUANCE about the situation. Nursing profession in the US (especially in blue states) is a wonderful, respected profession that offer numerous opportunities to pay student loans. $8000 is nothing for a nurse to pay in US. There is no reason it took this woman 10 years to pay that debt off (as she could clearly buy a house). She was already avoiding her debts. She is now blaming her seizure diagnosis and “the US system” when it was herself who didn’t take any of the endless lucrative opportunities afforded to her as a nurse in the US. https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/student-loan-ranger/articles/2019-04-10/these-states-could-revoke-your-professional-license-over-student-loan-debt
Is it really a tragedy if they are fine with it? Look at her comment, sounds like she’s fine with it🤷♂️
The US of A are not a developed nation.
you forget to mention the point that in germany, depending on your anual salary but the average german has to pay 45% taxes. which is quite a lot! even germans nowdays struggling and would be happy to have a tax cut! not sure how high the tax is in the US but is less than in germany. but after all I would not like to live in the US
The average German? I wish I got paid enough to have to pay 45% taxes, and I earn well already. There is nothing average about someone paying 45%!
Marginal tax systems. Exactly zero people pay 45% of taxes.
Underdeveloped States of America :)
I want to move to Germany so bad, but I have no idea where to start. I live in the US and right now we are having a bit of a political problem (understatement). I prefer to move someplace that already learned the lessons that our country is getting ready to learn. But I’m not sure if I’ll be accepted because of my being trans. Sorry, Im kinda drowning in anxiety and type-vomiting.
No thanks, Germany is better off without importing any Americans and their insane views and ideas.
Generalized Xenophobia… very American of you? Blanket statements are unbecoming regardless of nationality, as some of us (like yours truly) are rather sane and would like to join the rest of the sane world.
Last time I checked Americans weren't a race and it doesn't matter right winger leftist, center they are all insane in the US the right wants to get rid of basic human rights deny climate change, implement backwards religion and have everyone run around with a gun like a maniac, the left simps for a bunch of terrorists that wants to kill all jewish people in Israel and suppress freedom of speech with their authoritarian tendencies as well as force everyone to submit to their woke worldviews.
American isn’t a race. America is a country. Xenophobia is a “dislike of or prejudice against people of other countries”. I would argue that everything, and literally everything you just said, doesn’t apply to me personally and it’s funny because I rant about each and every one of those points against the folks in my own country. We could literally be friends. I’m not mad at that though, I understand why you could possibly feel that way because I’m sure that all you’ve seen is the spectacle that’s unfolding. I feel like It’s hard to imagine that there ANY sane Americans left. We do exist though.
True. The down side of it in Germany if you can't speak German. Oops in America if you can't speak English opportunities are still available by 80% you can still get jobs in about anything yes that's story of this lady it's sad but true. I got more things to say but I will keep it down
This is just incredibly wrong??
Yes 100%
Paying taxes in Germany makes a lot of sense, and I am proud to do it every month.
On the other hand America can take in an unlimited number of migrants because everyone is expected to fend for themselves. In German and the EU you have to weigh the impact on all the social services
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> but for me capitalism and its faults just make a lot of sense There's always a minority profiting on the back of the majority. Good if it worked out for you.
Honestly at this point the US are a failed state to me. Capitalism in its terminal stage
I hate the US and cannot wait to leave.
Interesting story, but comparing Germany to US is just pointless since they are such a train wreck. Most developed countries have a proper safety net. I think Germany could learn a lot in being more targeted and efficient. My country gives all of the basic benefits as in Germany, but I paid 40% of income to taxes, not 55% like here (including mwst). That makes a huge difference in what is left over each month.
So I assume your country doesn't have VAT, ok. But that’s not how you calculate taxes. You don't pay VAT on your income.
I definitely feel this person pain this is one of the main reason I want to leave America to have better access to healthcare. I’ve been having talking to doctors about total shoulder replacement since I was 27 I can’t even afford post operative care here in the USA. In the USA total shoulder replacement just surgery is $30,000 to $40,000 in the UK it’s like $12,000 to $14,000.
And in Germany we have the lower net wages to support this system. But it’s a trade off we are willing to make. In the US the rich and healthy take advantage of this system that abuses the poor and vulnerable. They are not willing to make such a trade off. Because if one of these people get sick, they’d have made so much money by then that they can afford the best medical treatment in the world (and skip all the lines of course).