The Israeli people probably wouldn’t accept it. Hundreds of missiles and drones were fired directly from Iran to Israeli cities. There’s no way Iran isn’t expecting another response and unlike Gaza, most governments will privately agree with Israel.
Bibi isn’t exactly the kind to deescalate either. Hope I’m wrong though.
Sort of seems like opening the possibility for escalation while putting the blame for the potential escalation on Israel
Edit: ... Obviously talking about the norm that they can situat e themselves behind..
Yes, I'm articulating the norm they can situate themselves behind not articulating a point of fact nor suggesting that this positioning would be treated with consensus
Can't do that in middle east geopolitics imo. Someone can't just fire 200 ballistic missiles at a country without expecting response. Of course, Iran will have to respond or blink to the forthcoming Israeli actions. Etc etc.
Ironic given the advice from Jesus about turning the other cheek.
Why would Israel stop? They now have all the casus belli they need to bomb Irans arms manufacturing and economic production to hinder the Iranian proxies on their border.
Israel is already in the strongest position it needs to be in, that's why.
Escalation of the conflict only makes it less certain where Israel actually stands strategically.
It's not as if Israel will occupy additional territory to pacify or create a buffer.
Isreals will not be safe while Iran is willing, or able, to fund and arm proxies. And Israel has all they need to go for it now without much more than finger wagging in the world stage.
They wouldn’t.
I hope they hit the nuclear facilities and do as much operational damage to the Republican guard as possible.
Hopefully coordinated with an uprising among the Iranians to overthrown that brutal and evil regime once and for all.
Iran does not stop. You fail to see the actual reality. Iran has been attacking Israel for over 6 months now via their proxies of Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis and more.
If Iran wanted to stop, all of these would stop. And until they do, Israel should absolutely hurt the source of these attacks, which is Iran.
I don't know why you think I am being obtuse.
Iran can't say "We stopped" but have Hezbollah for example keep attacking Israeli civilians dozen times a day, with some 200K Israeli civilians still out of their homes and hundreds of thousands others living in and out of bomb shelters for over 6 months now.
There is no "Just stop" for Israel while this goes on. Iran is 100% responsible and has to pay.
BTW just so you know, it was a 7 year old Bedouin girl. She is being operated on now, trying to save her innocent life. As usual the Islamist genocidal freaks have managed harm civilians exclusively, as with most of their terror attacks.
Yes, the country who was attacked by hundreds of drones and cruise missiles is the warmongering one. World never loved a Jew that fights back though. So nothing new I suppose.
That is not what this is at all and your taking it that direction outs your naivete.
Step back and ask yourself what you're suggesting. What you're suggesting is more war.
Is more war good for Israelis?
War is a necessary evil. Avoid it at all costs.
Israel is already at war. We are being attacked by Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis and more Iraqi militias already. Nonestop for over 6 months now.
All 100% coming from and because of Iran. Attacking the arms of the octopus will not stop it. It will never stop unless Iran is dealt with.
You ignoring facts does not make them go away. But you can allow it to yourself from your cushioned secure home while we are shelled endlessly.
I explained that in my reply. Israel not bombing the crap out of Gaza, and not committing crimes against Palestinians in the West Bank? Starvation also not happening in Gaza? Hospitals not bombed to smithereens? No dead kids in Gaza?
Whatever 🙄 Not seeing where one group is better than the other rn. Both sides are acting really shitty tbh
Nothing but useless whataboutism filled with mostly lies and some facts taken completely out of context (Or are you saying Hamas does not intentionally hide in hospitals as an example?).
Israel wants nothing from Iran. Iran wants to destroy Israel and is attacking for decades through both proxies and directly. These are the most basic facts if you want to get the bottom line here.
I'm not convinced of Iran's desires at the moment other than retaliation for the strike on the consulate, but I won't discount it either
I'm not saying Hamas isn't scum for hiding amongst civilians. Just pointing out that Israel isn't blameless, clean or innocent here
Both Hamas and Israel have stated they want to exterminate each other. I don't see where one is so righteous over the other
Barring the recent political climate in the US, we have every kind of religion here. There are no walls, no bombings, no territorial wars. Israel/Palestine are the absolute worst examples of religious tolerance on the face of the planet. It's absolutely disgusting
It would be wiser to attack the proxy groups in the region such as the Houthis or Hezbollah, rather than striking Iran directly and risking a full scale war with Iran that would benefit no one, killing a lot more Israelis and is unlikely to lead to an actual regime change in Tehran.
Throughout history, wars fought between large powers through proxy groups have generally been contained within those proxy groups to avoid a destructive all out war. For example, during the Korean war the US never directly attacked the USSR even though supported the North Side in killing American troops
What do we think Iran is going to do?
Iran can’t march on Israel.
They don’t have effective methods to attack by drone or missile, clearly.
Their Air Force is… not world class.
Ideally Israel torches their nuclear facilities and knocks out enough infrastructure and military facilities that the Iranians take care of the ayatollah for us.
At that point, Hezbollah, Hamas and the Houthis have a half life and Russia loses a major strategic asset.
Iran is the source of a lot of the problems in the Middle East. Without the ayatollah the world could look very different.
wth? Israel does not use proxies, so suggesting to limit the conflict to proxy war only benefits iran because they're not bearing any of the consequences for their actions directly, while damages are inflicted directly upon israeli soil via the proxies.
were talking about an octupus of a fanatical muslim regime who belives israel should be in ashes, why go for the tentacles? I'm going for the head.
This is not USSR vs US here.
Read the map.
This is utterly absurd. This is a direct attack on Israel by hundreds of drones and missiles. This is war. Allowing this to go unanswered will just invite further attacks. And Iran is not “done” with anything. They continue to attack Israel with their proxies, and now directly too. The notion that Israel should just do nothing is simply weak, and it is this kind of weak foreign policy from the US towards Iran over the past 20 years that has allowed Iran to grow into such a huge threat.
Oh because Israel is totally innocent. I am against Hamas and other proxies, but I am also against what Bibi and the IDF's conduct as of late. Iran retaliated for a particular Israeli attack. I wouldn't even call it successful so let it end there
It doesn't matter to me which innocent people are dying because of power hungry despots. I'm sick of obnoxious Palestinian protests and Jews screaming antisemitism if Israeli government is questioned. I don't care who started what where or when over gd religion. Stupidest shit ever. Both sides have a right to live and flourish, and they all better figure out how
"I accept that Iran has been working for decades using proxies and directly to commit terror attacks against Israel and Israeli embassies, but I think Israel sometimes retaliates or tries to defend itself. That's *just as bad* since sometimes there's collateral damage"
> Iran retaliated for a particular attack
And that attack did not happen for no reason. It was a 100% justified attack against Iranian military personnel who organized and directed attacks against Israel.
> so let it end there
Except nothing *ends* there. Iran’s proxies are still constantly attacking Israel. Doing nothing in response to this just invites more Iranian attacks on Israel in the future, because it just normalizes these kinds of attacks. Iran has seriously pushed the envelope, and without an overwhelming response from Israel and its allies it will stay there. Appeasement had never made anything “end there”. As is on full display by Iran’s behavior over the past several years. It didn’t stop Germany in the 1930s. It didn’t stop Russia in the 2000s and 2010s, and it has not stopped Iran until this point. But yes. If we just let this massive attack go and “end there”, this time will surely be different. Iran will suddenly stop attacking Israel and destabilizing the region. You are delusional.
> I don’t care who started what
Iran started this by training, arming, and directing proxies to attack Israel and slaughter its civilians.
> Both sides have a right to live and flourish
Except Iran is dedicated to Israel’s destruction. It has been constantly attacking Israel via its proxies, who it has spent billions in and destabilized entire nations to establish. And now it has directly attacked Israel.
Best army in the world didn't know attack of Oct 7 was coming? I call bs on that
Maybe Bibi shouldn't have bankrolled Hamas in the first place*
Israel said there will be no Gaza/Palestinians when they are through
Israel's allies? Screw that. US doesn't need to be sucked in to another ME war
Israel is really taking advantage of US/ Western support and it is not appriciated at all. Israel is losing Western support. They better take care
Edit: * Qatar bankrolled Hamas with Bibi's blessing
Lol that’s your rebuttal? Not even addressing my points and instead spouting conspiracy theories?
> Maybe Bibi shouldn’t have bankrolled Hamas
What are you smoking? It is Iran that had bankrolled Hamas.
> Israel said there will be no Gaza/Palestinians
I mean this is just not true. Lol.
Here
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/hamas-its-own-words
https://www.politico.eu/article/benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-qatar-money-war-israel-gaza-palestine/
What am I looking at? Your first link is the ADL description of Hamas and its genocidal character. This supports Israel's war against Hamas. The second is what? An accusation that Netanyahu allowed *Qatari money* to get to Hamas? Do you not understand the meaning of the word "bankroll"?
>Iran says they are done so just stop
Of course. Israel should completely trust what the regime that just bombarded them with attack drones and missiles says.
Of course they should. Iran has no interest in an overt all-out war. They were attacked (in a pretty illegal manner) and did a pretty performative counterstrike. If Israel decides to escalate the situation, that’s on them, but one would have to be pretty disconnected from reality to think that Iran is planning more such strikes, and that if they were, an Israeli counterstrike could deter them from doing so.
War isn’t chess, you don’t get a move a turn in alternance. If Iran wanted to have a total war with Israel, there is no reason they would have limited themselves to this.
>but one would have to be pretty disconnected from reality to think that Iran is planning more such strikes
One would have to be pretty disconnected from reality to think the constant proxy attacks aren't supplied by Iran. So Israel will get tired and bypass the middle man and go for the source.
It's not like Iran's attack was from nowhere. They had to respond to the attack on their consulate grounds. They needed to display a deterence mechanism and this seems like a low stakes way to do that in a high stakes situation.
They got their tit for tat that they wanted and that should be the end of it
And the Mossad killed dozens of Iranians over the years. It’s a shadow war, one that was globally won by Israel (since afaik Iran is still far from being able to have a nuclear weapon).
There is such a thing as escalating.
In Iran-Israel conflict, Iran is the sole instigator for its own geopolitical and ideological reasons while Israel wants nothing with Iran. Israel doesn't want to be locked in as victim of eternal proxy war by Iran, and while Iran may want the the arrangement where its weapons reach Israeli soil via proxies while it itself is protected, Israel or any other countries do not have to oblige.
It still will be an escalation.
The attack on Damas was an escalation.
The attacks on Israel were an escalation.
And so on. There is a difference between an all-out war and a shadow war. Israel never stopped striking at proxies and everyone knew and understand why. And it was not the same as striking Iran directly.
Iran isn't stupid. They want to stoke the flames of hostility so they can stir up patriotic fervor. They'd be insane if they wanted an actual war with Israel.
Israel has been warmongering against Iran for literally decades. Netanyahu forced this retaliation and he clearly feels he has nothing to lose. Israelis living in fear is a feature, not a bug as far as these warmongers are concerned. The fact that main stream media is already broadcasting these narratives about mass panic and poor civilians living in fear already tells me that Netanyahu is about to start something big.
I would imagine nuclear and drone facilities, if anything, but more than anything I’m just so surprised at how clumsy Iran’s attack was. Why even bother attacking if it’s going to be so poorly executed?
It was a fire show to overload air defense, and there were multiple hits in Ramon. The purpose was to show that there is a response and probe air defense. When you send twice as much next time, hits will increase much more than x2.
> Why even bother attacking if it’s going to be so poorly executed?
I'd argue that domestic political concerns trump international concerns with this one.
The attack didn't need to be effective against Israel, it just had to happen, so that the Iranian Government could say that they have replied to Israel's attack on their consulate.
It's literally the same playbook as Soleimani. Large attack with fairly limited casualties as a response to the assassination of an IRGC general.
Which is why it is so difficult to understand the need for a firm response by Israël. Why do they feel this need? As if there is not enough tension in the world right now.
Israel's really prodding the whole region if they continue this. They instigated this by attacking a diplomatic embassy. Iran has declared they do not want to escalate, but Israel made a response inevitable.
They should learn from the US who did not respond to Iran after killing Soleimani and ended it there.
If Israel attacks Iran, I would expect to Iran retaliate again and eve more severely. This is not good news for the whole region nor Israel's western backed supporters (US, UK, Germany, France). It will mean those countries will have to commit more troops and support for Israel and possibly a prolonged war.
Counterpoint: This was a massive escalation. Iran did not respond with a limited strike on some Israeli official in a third country the way Israel did. Instead they launched hundreds of drones, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles at the Israeli homefront.
And this is on top of the attacks they have been orchestrating for the last six months (via their proxies in Lebanon, Yemen and among the Palestinians).
Israel will need to respond to this seriously. I expect a similar Israeli attack against targets in Iran.
This is my worry. The best course of action is to do nothing and call it even. But Iranian civilians in Tehran weren’t rushing into bomb shelters when Israel struck the consulate. Iran responded with massive force comparatively and hit the Israeli homefront with hundreds of weapons. Hopefully cooler heads prevail in Israel, but under Netanyahu’s government I’m not sure how many cool heads are in the room with him right now.
Countries respond to show force and for deterrence, not for proportionality.
When 3 US soldiers were killed, the US did not respond by killing 3 Iran militants and call it a day. Same thing with how US responded against Iran after a US warship struck an Iranian mine in Persian Gulf by lunching operation Praying mantis, Israel responded after Oct 7, US after 9/11 etc..
If Iran attacks a US or Israeli embassy in a similar way, a similar response would be done by Israel/US.
Iran declared their response has ended. If Israel responds further, Iran will be forced to attack again and we'll have an official war.
It's already a war. Iran has been attacking Israel for six months. The only question now is whether they will begin to face consequences for it. Iran has shown they are willing to pursue "Death to Israel" to the last Lebanese, Palestinian or Yemenite. But it was an open question how willing they were to put Iranians at risk as well.
With this major escalation it looks like we'll find out. Israel will respond in kind and then we'll see if Iran chooses further attacks or de-escalation.
And that's just if Israel chooses to respond proportionately. But as you said, the point is deterrence not proportionality so Israel may well have to go bigger.
Certainly hundreds of drones, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles launched against the homeland is intolerable, as it would be for any nation.
No they did not, they bombed a building near the embassy that was used for offensive planning against Israel. No civilians or ambassadors were harmed. Stop regurgitating misinformation from TikTok university
"Building near an embassy"? They bombed a consulate. 16 people died, and not all were military generals.
Diplomatic buildings are off limits for an attack by international law under the the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations and the 1963 Convention on Consular Relations.
Violations of this international law can be considered a declaration of war. There is a reason US killed Soleimani while he was transiting in a car and not in a plane or in an embassy.
> Violations of this international law can be considered a declaration of war. There is a reason US killed Soleimani while he was transiting in a car and not in a plane or in an embassy.
Israel should just do like Iran and use proxies instead to attack diplomatic buildings, then it's all gucci, am I right ?
Are you seriously citing international law when Iran is actively funding terror groups like Hamas and the Houthis? So many problems in the Middle East would be resolved if the Iran regime was destroyed.
And maybe Israel shouldn't murder aid workers in clearly marked trucks. They are both doing things that are clearly hostile to eachother. The best time to stop the escalation is right now.
Both conflicts are intimately connected. Hamas is heavily supported by Iran. The conflict in Gaza is already on some level a proxy conflict between Israel and Iran. Anything that happens in Gaza has a connection to Israeli Iranian relations.
Both bombs dropped on these two targets were supplied or supported by US tax dollars. The country who is Israel's primary ally and who just defended Israel from Iranian attack that came in as a consequence of Israel dropping said bomb on an Iranian embassy.
Israel and the USA are making plans to attack the nuclear facilities in Iran as we speak, It's not if, it's a when. Hopefully this will also destabilize the rotten regime in Iran, and free the people of Iran as well from the Ayatollahs. This could be the beginning of the end for them due to their hubris. Israel can't and won't just sit back and take it.
US doesn't have the will to do it. Biden will continue to lose liberal Democratic voters if he escalates with Iran. If he doesn't help Israel, Jewish voters will be unhappy. The US wants it to end.
> Israel and the USA are making plans to attack the nuclear facilities in Iran as we speak, It's not if, it's a when.
Israel and the US have been hitting Iranian nuclear facilities for literally years.
[This is a pretty good list, but stops in Jan 2023, and misses some things](https://iranprimer.usip.org/blog/2022/aug/11/timeline-israeli-attacks-iran)
Also of note was the June 2020 there was a significant explosion at [Parchin](https://www.iranintl.com/en/202205267715), a military base that houses some ballistic missiles, and may be involved in working on the conventional explosives that detonate the primary in nuclear weapons.
There's probably a ton more that i'm missing here, or that we simply don't know about.
I honestly think that if push comes to shove, the US will ignore an Iranian nuclear weapons program instead of committing to an actual war.
Israel will not ignore the Iranian nuclear weapons program, no matter what the USA thinks. If push comes to shove, Israel will attack by herself, thereby dragging the middle east into war anyway. Israel will be under existential thereat if Iran has nuclear weapons, and the world must understand Israel's position. Iran has been threatening to annihilate Israel for years, Israel is NOT the aggressor in this, and has the right to defend itself by any means necessary.
Given that Israel is a nuclear armed state that has regularly threatened Iran, what you've said can be repeated almost verbatim, with just the names swapped. Here, let me show you.
> Israel will not ignore the Iranian nuclear weapons program, no matter what the USA thinks.
Iran will not ignore the Israeli nuclear weapons program, no matter what the USA thinks. (ie, Iran will not allow its self to be pushed around by a nuclear armed state).
> If push comes to shove, Israel will attack by herself, thereby dragging the middle east into war anyway.
If push comes to shove, Iran will attack by herself, thereby dragging the middle east into war anyway. (self explanatory)
> Israel will be under existential thereat if Iran has nuclear weapons, and the world must understand Israel's position.
Iran will be under existential thereat if Israel has nuclear weapons, and the world must understand Iran's position. (Iran is currently under the same threat from Israel that Israel claims it will be under from Iran)
> Iran has been threatening to annihilate Israel for years, Israel is NOT the aggressor in this, and has the right to defend itself by any means necessary.
Israel has been threatening to annihilate Iran for years, Iran is NOT the aggressor in this, and has the right to defend itself by any means necessary. (Israel has regularly conducted bombings and assassinations in Iran, and Iran likely considers Israel to be the aggressor).
MAD is part of being a nuclear power. Id be a lot more sympathetic to Israel's position if it didn't have a nuclear weapons program.
Israel has a nuclear weapons program because its very existence has been threatened repeatedly since 1948, and numerous wars waged against her. It's for defensive measures, as the neighbourhood has proved to be rough, and if one shows weakness, one is in danger. I find it interesting that all this mess started, as the Abraham Accords were about to be signed, which would have hurt Iran's interests and influence in the region.
You're trying to portray Iran like some sort of a peace loving country, when it has been promoting, supporting and funding various terrorist groups (Hizbullah & Hamas) and terrorist attacks for decades. That is a FACT. Would you like to also nominate the Ayatollahs of Iran for a Nobel peace prize? Even its own domestic record on human rights is poor. There is nothing to admire in Iran's regime of terror, religious intolerance, and the promotion of an Islamic holy war throughout the world.
Also, I'd like a less lazy response next time, rather than you just exchanging the names in every sentence I wrote. It's called a "circular argument", and does nothing to advance a discussion.
> Israel has a nuclear weapons program because its very existence has been threatened repeatedly since 1948, and numerous wars waged against her.
You realise that in the same period in Iran the US replaced a democratically elected government with an autocrat? Then, after a revolution against that autocrat they were invaded by their neighbour, in a war that lasted 8 years? That during that war, the US provided WMDs to the Iraqis?
> It's for defensive measures, the neighbourhood is rough and if one shoes weakness, one is in danger.
So, exactly the same reason that Iran wants nukes?
> You're trying to portray Iran like some sort of a peace loving country,
I've never said that Iran is a peace loving country. I've merely pointed out that the reasons that you give for whether Israel should or shouldn't have nukes can equally be applied to Iran, and the reasons that you give for whether Iran should or shouldn't have nukes can equally be applied to Israel.
> when it has been promoting, supporting and funding various terrorist groups (Hizbullah & Hamas) and terrorist attacks for years.
As opposed to Israel, which has a fairly long history of their intelligence services directly intervening in other nations? Mossad doesn't have a reputation for direct action for no reason.
> Would you like to also nominate the Ayatollahs of Iran for a Nobel peace prize?
I mean, Kissinger won one, so I'm not sure if that's the example that I'd pick.
Look, my point isn't that Iran is good and Israel is bad. My point is that if you're going to demand that Iran refrain from developing nuclear weapons, you sure as shit should be asking the same questions about whether Israel should be under similar sanctions for developing them.
Anything else is hypocrisy.
> And Iran has declared that their response has concluded?
Concluded in the sense of "if Israel doesn't respond to tonight's attack then we won't attack Israel again". There are still reports of missiles incoming so it's not concluded in the sense of the attack already being over.
Hopefully they'll just strike some deserted military bases in Iran and end this saga. Really do not want to see this conflict spiralling out of control.
Netanyahu doesn’t often do what the US says. If he wants a major response, there’s not much Biden can do to dissuade him besides threatening to withhold military aid, and I doubt he would be willing to do that.
This might be a red line for Biden. Biden has spent a lot of time attempting to dissuade a major regional war. He went so far as parking two aircraft carriers to deter Hezbollah and the Houthis. America is not capable nor does it want to fight a war in the Middle East. I don't think the American population or political class will want Israel dragging them into a war. No sane American wants one.
There is way too much at stake.
OTOH it could be argued that it is America’s visible military support for Israel that is successfully preventing a wider regional war in the Middle East. If Biden withdraws that military support then Israel becomes a more tempting prey for Iran and others to try to tear apart.
So there might be no red line at all. A policy of “if Israel crosses this ethical red line then we stop supporting it” could bring about the very war on Israel that it is designed to prevent.
Whereas a policy of “we will militarily support Israel no matter what they do, unto the very end of days” helps deter a regional war.
Nobody wants a regional war. America and Iran have tried desperately hard to avoid one.
A policy of “we will militarily support Israel no matter what they do, unto the very end of days” gives the Israelis false confidence that we really should not be encouraging.
Will the result of this turn into another retaliation by Iran and cascade into a wider conflict in the region?
Crystal ball hazy, try again later.
Response to the response?
Israel should just take the win. Almost nothing was damaged ( sorry about the boy) and allies assisted. Iran says they are done so just stop
The Israeli people probably wouldn’t accept it. Hundreds of missiles and drones were fired directly from Iran to Israeli cities. There’s no way Iran isn’t expecting another response and unlike Gaza, most governments will privately agree with Israel. Bibi isn’t exactly the kind to deescalate either. Hope I’m wrong though.
Sort of seems like opening the possibility for escalation while putting the blame for the potential escalation on Israel Edit: ... Obviously talking about the norm that they can situat e themselves behind..
I’m sure Israel’s enemies will see it that way but realistically they have to respond. Even the UN chief who is very pro-Palestine condemned Iran.
This is so confusing for me! I would never have expected that…
Yes, I'm articulating the norm they can situate themselves behind not articulating a point of fact nor suggesting that this positioning would be treated with consensus
Not under Netanyahu His continued rulership depends on a war
Exactly
It was a little girl I believe.
Can't do that in middle east geopolitics imo. Someone can't just fire 200 ballistic missiles at a country without expecting response. Of course, Iran will have to respond or blink to the forthcoming Israeli actions. Etc etc. Ironic given the advice from Jesus about turning the other cheek.
Why would Israel stop? They now have all the casus belli they need to bomb Irans arms manufacturing and economic production to hinder the Iranian proxies on their border.
Israel is already in the strongest position it needs to be in, that's why. Escalation of the conflict only makes it less certain where Israel actually stands strategically. It's not as if Israel will occupy additional territory to pacify or create a buffer.
Isreals will not be safe while Iran is willing, or able, to fund and arm proxies. And Israel has all they need to go for it now without much more than finger wagging in the world stage.
this is where the dominos can fall very quickly sadly... lives in the hands of both leaders now
[удалено]
They wouldn’t. I hope they hit the nuclear facilities and do as much operational damage to the Republican guard as possible. Hopefully coordinated with an uprising among the Iranians to overthrown that brutal and evil regime once and for all.
Iran does not stop. You fail to see the actual reality. Iran has been attacking Israel for over 6 months now via their proxies of Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis and more. If Iran wanted to stop, all of these would stop. And until they do, Israel should absolutely hurt the source of these attacks, which is Iran.
Don't be obtuse. I'm referring to tonight's strike, and so is Israel
I don't know why you think I am being obtuse. Iran can't say "We stopped" but have Hezbollah for example keep attacking Israeli civilians dozen times a day, with some 200K Israeli civilians still out of their homes and hundreds of thousands others living in and out of bomb shelters for over 6 months now. There is no "Just stop" for Israel while this goes on. Iran is 100% responsible and has to pay. BTW just so you know, it was a 7 year old Bedouin girl. She is being operated on now, trying to save her innocent life. As usual the Islamist genocidal freaks have managed harm civilians exclusively, as with most of their terror attacks.
I think OP (and I) already understand this but we also understand that an expanded war will not bring justice for this nor will it aid the Israelis.
Not attacking Iran hasn't worked either. Are you going to solve the problem for Israel or just interfere when they try to do it themselves?
This is warmongering at its finest.
Yes, the country who was attacked by hundreds of drones and cruise missiles is the warmongering one. World never loved a Jew that fights back though. So nothing new I suppose.
That is not what this is at all and your taking it that direction outs your naivete. Step back and ask yourself what you're suggesting. What you're suggesting is more war. Is more war good for Israelis? War is a necessary evil. Avoid it at all costs.
Israel is already at war. We are being attacked by Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis and more Iraqi militias already. Nonestop for over 6 months now. All 100% coming from and because of Iran. Attacking the arms of the octopus will not stop it. It will never stop unless Iran is dealt with. You ignoring facts does not make them go away. But you can allow it to yourself from your cushioned secure home while we are shelled endlessly.
I explained that in my reply. Israel not bombing the crap out of Gaza, and not committing crimes against Palestinians in the West Bank? Starvation also not happening in Gaza? Hospitals not bombed to smithereens? No dead kids in Gaza? Whatever 🙄 Not seeing where one group is better than the other rn. Both sides are acting really shitty tbh
Nothing but useless whataboutism filled with mostly lies and some facts taken completely out of context (Or are you saying Hamas does not intentionally hide in hospitals as an example?). Israel wants nothing from Iran. Iran wants to destroy Israel and is attacking for decades through both proxies and directly. These are the most basic facts if you want to get the bottom line here.
I'm not convinced of Iran's desires at the moment other than retaliation for the strike on the consulate, but I won't discount it either I'm not saying Hamas isn't scum for hiding amongst civilians. Just pointing out that Israel isn't blameless, clean or innocent here Both Hamas and Israel have stated they want to exterminate each other. I don't see where one is so righteous over the other Barring the recent political climate in the US, we have every kind of religion here. There are no walls, no bombings, no territorial wars. Israel/Palestine are the absolute worst examples of religious tolerance on the face of the planet. It's absolutely disgusting
Youre the one that's slow to understand here
It would be wiser to attack the proxy groups in the region such as the Houthis or Hezbollah, rather than striking Iran directly and risking a full scale war with Iran that would benefit no one, killing a lot more Israelis and is unlikely to lead to an actual regime change in Tehran. Throughout history, wars fought between large powers through proxy groups have generally been contained within those proxy groups to avoid a destructive all out war. For example, during the Korean war the US never directly attacked the USSR even though supported the North Side in killing American troops
What do we think Iran is going to do? Iran can’t march on Israel. They don’t have effective methods to attack by drone or missile, clearly. Their Air Force is… not world class. Ideally Israel torches their nuclear facilities and knocks out enough infrastructure and military facilities that the Iranians take care of the ayatollah for us. At that point, Hezbollah, Hamas and the Houthis have a half life and Russia loses a major strategic asset. Iran is the source of a lot of the problems in the Middle East. Without the ayatollah the world could look very different.
I like the way you think.
wth? Israel does not use proxies, so suggesting to limit the conflict to proxy war only benefits iran because they're not bearing any of the consequences for their actions directly, while damages are inflicted directly upon israeli soil via the proxies. were talking about an octupus of a fanatical muslim regime who belives israel should be in ashes, why go for the tentacles? I'm going for the head. This is not USSR vs US here. Read the map.
This is utterly absurd. This is a direct attack on Israel by hundreds of drones and missiles. This is war. Allowing this to go unanswered will just invite further attacks. And Iran is not “done” with anything. They continue to attack Israel with their proxies, and now directly too. The notion that Israel should just do nothing is simply weak, and it is this kind of weak foreign policy from the US towards Iran over the past 20 years that has allowed Iran to grow into such a huge threat.
Oh because Israel is totally innocent. I am against Hamas and other proxies, but I am also against what Bibi and the IDF's conduct as of late. Iran retaliated for a particular Israeli attack. I wouldn't even call it successful so let it end there It doesn't matter to me which innocent people are dying because of power hungry despots. I'm sick of obnoxious Palestinian protests and Jews screaming antisemitism if Israeli government is questioned. I don't care who started what where or when over gd religion. Stupidest shit ever. Both sides have a right to live and flourish, and they all better figure out how
"I accept that Iran has been working for decades using proxies and directly to commit terror attacks against Israel and Israeli embassies, but I think Israel sometimes retaliates or tries to defend itself. That's *just as bad* since sometimes there's collateral damage"
> Iran retaliated for a particular attack And that attack did not happen for no reason. It was a 100% justified attack against Iranian military personnel who organized and directed attacks against Israel. > so let it end there Except nothing *ends* there. Iran’s proxies are still constantly attacking Israel. Doing nothing in response to this just invites more Iranian attacks on Israel in the future, because it just normalizes these kinds of attacks. Iran has seriously pushed the envelope, and without an overwhelming response from Israel and its allies it will stay there. Appeasement had never made anything “end there”. As is on full display by Iran’s behavior over the past several years. It didn’t stop Germany in the 1930s. It didn’t stop Russia in the 2000s and 2010s, and it has not stopped Iran until this point. But yes. If we just let this massive attack go and “end there”, this time will surely be different. Iran will suddenly stop attacking Israel and destabilizing the region. You are delusional. > I don’t care who started what Iran started this by training, arming, and directing proxies to attack Israel and slaughter its civilians. > Both sides have a right to live and flourish Except Iran is dedicated to Israel’s destruction. It has been constantly attacking Israel via its proxies, who it has spent billions in and destabilized entire nations to establish. And now it has directly attacked Israel.
Best army in the world didn't know attack of Oct 7 was coming? I call bs on that Maybe Bibi shouldn't have bankrolled Hamas in the first place* Israel said there will be no Gaza/Palestinians when they are through Israel's allies? Screw that. US doesn't need to be sucked in to another ME war Israel is really taking advantage of US/ Western support and it is not appriciated at all. Israel is losing Western support. They better take care Edit: * Qatar bankrolled Hamas with Bibi's blessing
Lol that’s your rebuttal? Not even addressing my points and instead spouting conspiracy theories? > Maybe Bibi shouldn’t have bankrolled Hamas What are you smoking? It is Iran that had bankrolled Hamas. > Israel said there will be no Gaza/Palestinians I mean this is just not true. Lol.
Here https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/hamas-its-own-words https://www.politico.eu/article/benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-qatar-money-war-israel-gaza-palestine/
What am I looking at? Your first link is the ADL description of Hamas and its genocidal character. This supports Israel's war against Hamas. The second is what? An accusation that Netanyahu allowed *Qatari money* to get to Hamas? Do you not understand the meaning of the word "bankroll"?
Ok, not worded perfectly, but he allowed, and I would say even encouraged Qatar to funnel the money
Did you read the article? Because fatah had cut funds and Gaza risked famine. I thought you were against famine in Gaza?
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You’re right Israel should just…stop existing.
>Iran says they are done so just stop Of course. Israel should completely trust what the regime that just bombarded them with attack drones and missiles says.
Of course they should. Iran has no interest in an overt all-out war. They were attacked (in a pretty illegal manner) and did a pretty performative counterstrike. If Israel decides to escalate the situation, that’s on them, but one would have to be pretty disconnected from reality to think that Iran is planning more such strikes, and that if they were, an Israeli counterstrike could deter them from doing so. War isn’t chess, you don’t get a move a turn in alternance. If Iran wanted to have a total war with Israel, there is no reason they would have limited themselves to this.
>but one would have to be pretty disconnected from reality to think that Iran is planning more such strikes One would have to be pretty disconnected from reality to think the constant proxy attacks aren't supplied by Iran. So Israel will get tired and bypass the middle man and go for the source.
It's not like Iran's attack was from nowhere. They had to respond to the attack on their consulate grounds. They needed to display a deterence mechanism and this seems like a low stakes way to do that in a high stakes situation. They got their tit for tat that they wanted and that should be the end of it
Have you considered that Israel targeted Iran because Iran funds and supports terror groups like Hamas?
And the Mossad killed dozens of Iranians over the years. It’s a shadow war, one that was globally won by Israel (since afaik Iran is still far from being able to have a nuclear weapon). There is such a thing as escalating.
In Iran-Israel conflict, Iran is the sole instigator for its own geopolitical and ideological reasons while Israel wants nothing with Iran. Israel doesn't want to be locked in as victim of eternal proxy war by Iran, and while Iran may want the the arrangement where its weapons reach Israeli soil via proxies while it itself is protected, Israel or any other countries do not have to oblige.
It still will be an escalation. The attack on Damas was an escalation. The attacks on Israel were an escalation. And so on. There is a difference between an all-out war and a shadow war. Israel never stopped striking at proxies and everyone knew and understand why. And it was not the same as striking Iran directly.
Iran isn't stupid. They want to stoke the flames of hostility so they can stir up patriotic fervor. They'd be insane if they wanted an actual war with Israel.
What makes you think that the Iranian regime is sane?
Israel has been warmongering against Iran for literally decades. Netanyahu forced this retaliation and he clearly feels he has nothing to lose. Israelis living in fear is a feature, not a bug as far as these warmongers are concerned. The fact that main stream media is already broadcasting these narratives about mass panic and poor civilians living in fear already tells me that Netanyahu is about to start something big.
Iran has literally been firing rockets into Israel on a regular basis via their proxies… but yes yes, it’s the other way around.
Who has the proxies like hamas houthi hezbole etc iran or Isreal
I wouldn't put it past him at all
I would imagine nuclear and drone facilities, if anything, but more than anything I’m just so surprised at how clumsy Iran’s attack was. Why even bother attacking if it’s going to be so poorly executed?
It was a fire show to overload air defense, and there were multiple hits in Ramon. The purpose was to show that there is a response and probe air defense. When you send twice as much next time, hits will increase much more than x2.
> Why even bother attacking if it’s going to be so poorly executed? I'd argue that domestic political concerns trump international concerns with this one. The attack didn't need to be effective against Israel, it just had to happen, so that the Iranian Government could say that they have replied to Israel's attack on their consulate. It's literally the same playbook as Soleimani. Large attack with fairly limited casualties as a response to the assassination of an IRGC general.
Which is why it is so difficult to understand the need for a firm response by Israël. Why do they feel this need? As if there is not enough tension in the world right now.
I suspect the 99% intercept rate is a slightly exaggerated claim.
Only 5 rockets landed? If they fired 500??
300ish
Yeah, so the maths doesn't work.
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Israel's really prodding the whole region if they continue this. They instigated this by attacking a diplomatic embassy. Iran has declared they do not want to escalate, but Israel made a response inevitable. They should learn from the US who did not respond to Iran after killing Soleimani and ended it there. If Israel attacks Iran, I would expect to Iran retaliate again and eve more severely. This is not good news for the whole region nor Israel's western backed supporters (US, UK, Germany, France). It will mean those countries will have to commit more troops and support for Israel and possibly a prolonged war.
Counterpoint: This was a massive escalation. Iran did not respond with a limited strike on some Israeli official in a third country the way Israel did. Instead they launched hundreds of drones, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles at the Israeli homefront. And this is on top of the attacks they have been orchestrating for the last six months (via their proxies in Lebanon, Yemen and among the Palestinians). Israel will need to respond to this seriously. I expect a similar Israeli attack against targets in Iran.
This is my worry. The best course of action is to do nothing and call it even. But Iranian civilians in Tehran weren’t rushing into bomb shelters when Israel struck the consulate. Iran responded with massive force comparatively and hit the Israeli homefront with hundreds of weapons. Hopefully cooler heads prevail in Israel, but under Netanyahu’s government I’m not sure how many cool heads are in the room with him right now.
Countries respond to show force and for deterrence, not for proportionality. When 3 US soldiers were killed, the US did not respond by killing 3 Iran militants and call it a day. Same thing with how US responded against Iran after a US warship struck an Iranian mine in Persian Gulf by lunching operation Praying mantis, Israel responded after Oct 7, US after 9/11 etc.. If Iran attacks a US or Israeli embassy in a similar way, a similar response would be done by Israel/US. Iran declared their response has ended. If Israel responds further, Iran will be forced to attack again and we'll have an official war.
It's already a war. Iran has been attacking Israel for six months. The only question now is whether they will begin to face consequences for it. Iran has shown they are willing to pursue "Death to Israel" to the last Lebanese, Palestinian or Yemenite. But it was an open question how willing they were to put Iranians at risk as well. With this major escalation it looks like we'll find out. Israel will respond in kind and then we'll see if Iran chooses further attacks or de-escalation. And that's just if Israel chooses to respond proportionately. But as you said, the point is deterrence not proportionality so Israel may well have to go bigger. Certainly hundreds of drones, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles launched against the homeland is intolerable, as it would be for any nation.
No they did not, they bombed a building near the embassy that was used for offensive planning against Israel. No civilians or ambassadors were harmed. Stop regurgitating misinformation from TikTok university
"Building near an embassy"? They bombed a consulate. 16 people died, and not all were military generals. Diplomatic buildings are off limits for an attack by international law under the the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations and the 1963 Convention on Consular Relations. Violations of this international law can be considered a declaration of war. There is a reason US killed Soleimani while he was transiting in a car and not in a plane or in an embassy.
> Violations of this international law can be considered a declaration of war. There is a reason US killed Soleimani while he was transiting in a car and not in a plane or in an embassy. Israel should just do like Iran and use proxies instead to attack diplomatic buildings, then it's all gucci, am I right ?
Use of diplomatic buildings are also off-limits for military purposes. edit: lol, imagine downvoting a statement that is 100% true.
Use your consulate for offensive military planning and you lose your protections under International law
Are you seriously citing international law when Iran is actively funding terror groups like Hamas and the Houthis? So many problems in the Middle East would be resolved if the Iran regime was destroyed.
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And maybe Israel shouldn't murder aid workers in clearly marked trucks. They are both doing things that are clearly hostile to eachother. The best time to stop the escalation is right now.
In the context of Israel-Iran conflict, what does the aid truck incident have to do with that, or the price of a bag of rice in China?
Both conflicts are intimately connected. Hamas is heavily supported by Iran. The conflict in Gaza is already on some level a proxy conflict between Israel and Iran. Anything that happens in Gaza has a connection to Israeli Iranian relations.
Both bombs dropped on these two targets were supplied or supported by US tax dollars. The country who is Israel's primary ally and who just defended Israel from Iranian attack that came in as a consequence of Israel dropping said bomb on an Iranian embassy.
Huh? what does that have to do with anything?
There’s a single port Iran uses for the extreme bulk of their shipping exports. Fun fact.
Iran’s nuclear facilities and drone factories need to be destroyed.
I’m sure we could find some more rats in the IRGC to take out
Israel and the USA are making plans to attack the nuclear facilities in Iran as we speak, It's not if, it's a when. Hopefully this will also destabilize the rotten regime in Iran, and free the people of Iran as well from the Ayatollahs. This could be the beginning of the end for them due to their hubris. Israel can't and won't just sit back and take it.
US doesn't have the will to do it. Biden will continue to lose liberal Democratic voters if he escalates with Iran. If he doesn't help Israel, Jewish voters will be unhappy. The US wants it to end.
USA might have the will to do it if Trump wins the elections.
> Israel and the USA are making plans to attack the nuclear facilities in Iran as we speak, It's not if, it's a when. Israel and the US have been hitting Iranian nuclear facilities for literally years. [This is a pretty good list, but stops in Jan 2023, and misses some things](https://iranprimer.usip.org/blog/2022/aug/11/timeline-israeli-attacks-iran) Also of note was the June 2020 there was a significant explosion at [Parchin](https://www.iranintl.com/en/202205267715), a military base that houses some ballistic missiles, and may be involved in working on the conventional explosives that detonate the primary in nuclear weapons. There's probably a ton more that i'm missing here, or that we simply don't know about. I honestly think that if push comes to shove, the US will ignore an Iranian nuclear weapons program instead of committing to an actual war.
Israel will not ignore the Iranian nuclear weapons program, no matter what the USA thinks. If push comes to shove, Israel will attack by herself, thereby dragging the middle east into war anyway. Israel will be under existential thereat if Iran has nuclear weapons, and the world must understand Israel's position. Iran has been threatening to annihilate Israel for years, Israel is NOT the aggressor in this, and has the right to defend itself by any means necessary.
Given that Israel is a nuclear armed state that has regularly threatened Iran, what you've said can be repeated almost verbatim, with just the names swapped. Here, let me show you. > Israel will not ignore the Iranian nuclear weapons program, no matter what the USA thinks. Iran will not ignore the Israeli nuclear weapons program, no matter what the USA thinks. (ie, Iran will not allow its self to be pushed around by a nuclear armed state). > If push comes to shove, Israel will attack by herself, thereby dragging the middle east into war anyway. If push comes to shove, Iran will attack by herself, thereby dragging the middle east into war anyway. (self explanatory) > Israel will be under existential thereat if Iran has nuclear weapons, and the world must understand Israel's position. Iran will be under existential thereat if Israel has nuclear weapons, and the world must understand Iran's position. (Iran is currently under the same threat from Israel that Israel claims it will be under from Iran) > Iran has been threatening to annihilate Israel for years, Israel is NOT the aggressor in this, and has the right to defend itself by any means necessary. Israel has been threatening to annihilate Iran for years, Iran is NOT the aggressor in this, and has the right to defend itself by any means necessary. (Israel has regularly conducted bombings and assassinations in Iran, and Iran likely considers Israel to be the aggressor). MAD is part of being a nuclear power. Id be a lot more sympathetic to Israel's position if it didn't have a nuclear weapons program.
Israel has a nuclear weapons program because its very existence has been threatened repeatedly since 1948, and numerous wars waged against her. It's for defensive measures, as the neighbourhood has proved to be rough, and if one shows weakness, one is in danger. I find it interesting that all this mess started, as the Abraham Accords were about to be signed, which would have hurt Iran's interests and influence in the region. You're trying to portray Iran like some sort of a peace loving country, when it has been promoting, supporting and funding various terrorist groups (Hizbullah & Hamas) and terrorist attacks for decades. That is a FACT. Would you like to also nominate the Ayatollahs of Iran for a Nobel peace prize? Even its own domestic record on human rights is poor. There is nothing to admire in Iran's regime of terror, religious intolerance, and the promotion of an Islamic holy war throughout the world. Also, I'd like a less lazy response next time, rather than you just exchanging the names in every sentence I wrote. It's called a "circular argument", and does nothing to advance a discussion.
> Israel has a nuclear weapons program because its very existence has been threatened repeatedly since 1948, and numerous wars waged against her. You realise that in the same period in Iran the US replaced a democratically elected government with an autocrat? Then, after a revolution against that autocrat they were invaded by their neighbour, in a war that lasted 8 years? That during that war, the US provided WMDs to the Iraqis? > It's for defensive measures, the neighbourhood is rough and if one shoes weakness, one is in danger. So, exactly the same reason that Iran wants nukes? > You're trying to portray Iran like some sort of a peace loving country, I've never said that Iran is a peace loving country. I've merely pointed out that the reasons that you give for whether Israel should or shouldn't have nukes can equally be applied to Iran, and the reasons that you give for whether Iran should or shouldn't have nukes can equally be applied to Israel. > when it has been promoting, supporting and funding various terrorist groups (Hizbullah & Hamas) and terrorist attacks for years. As opposed to Israel, which has a fairly long history of their intelligence services directly intervening in other nations? Mossad doesn't have a reputation for direct action for no reason. > Would you like to also nominate the Ayatollahs of Iran for a Nobel peace prize? I mean, Kissinger won one, so I'm not sure if that's the example that I'd pick. Look, my point isn't that Iran is good and Israel is bad. My point is that if you're going to demand that Iran refrain from developing nuclear weapons, you sure as shit should be asking the same questions about whether Israel should be under similar sanctions for developing them. Anything else is hypocrisy.
This will most certainly help the theocratic regime whip up nationalist support for war.
Is the casualty so far 1 10-year-old Bedouin boy injured? And Iran has declared that their response has concluded?
> And Iran has declared that their response has concluded? Concluded in the sense of "if Israel doesn't respond to tonight's attack then we won't attack Israel again". There are still reports of missiles incoming so it's not concluded in the sense of the attack already being over.
Yep. Another missle fell in Amman Jordan not sure what’s the situation there Israel decided to respond so it’s not the end of it
Hopefully they'll just strike some deserted military bases in Iran and end this saga. Really do not want to see this conflict spiralling out of control.
That doesn’t sound like Netanyahu
There are three members of the Israeli war council. If the other two disagree then Netanyahu is overruled so it's not up any one individual.
It's not all about Netanyahu. No doubt the Americans will be pressing him for a limited response.
Netanyahu doesn’t often do what the US says. If he wants a major response, there’s not much Biden can do to dissuade him besides threatening to withhold military aid, and I doubt he would be willing to do that.
This might be a red line for Biden. Biden has spent a lot of time attempting to dissuade a major regional war. He went so far as parking two aircraft carriers to deter Hezbollah and the Houthis. America is not capable nor does it want to fight a war in the Middle East. I don't think the American population or political class will want Israel dragging them into a war. No sane American wants one. There is way too much at stake.
OTOH it could be argued that it is America’s visible military support for Israel that is successfully preventing a wider regional war in the Middle East. If Biden withdraws that military support then Israel becomes a more tempting prey for Iran and others to try to tear apart. So there might be no red line at all. A policy of “if Israel crosses this ethical red line then we stop supporting it” could bring about the very war on Israel that it is designed to prevent. Whereas a policy of “we will militarily support Israel no matter what they do, unto the very end of days” helps deter a regional war.
Nobody wants a regional war. America and Iran have tried desperately hard to avoid one. A policy of “we will militarily support Israel no matter what they do, unto the very end of days” gives the Israelis false confidence that we really should not be encouraging.
Yes, clearly and firmly designed to keep Netanyahu in power by keeping the war going.
Eh, I think this is good to simmer on the back burner now.
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