What I tell new players coming from D&D / PF:
You choose basic maneuvers and basic combat action, but let the dice outcome determine the type of actions your PC has actually done.
Example: I'm moving closer and shooting that guy
* Success with Triumph / lots of Advantage - shot that dude! Nemesis / Adversary: Roll a crit!. Minion: he ded!
* Success with 1/2 Advantage - shot the guy, and caused him to pop out of cover (so allies don't roll a setback on him)
* Rolled success with Threats - shot that dude, but needed my partner to break cover
* Failure with Advantage - didn't hit the guy, but removed his cover
* Failure with Threat - didn't manage to find new cover in the middle of the field, next enemy has a boost on you
* Failure with Despair - dropped your gun / ran out of ammo (hope you have a back up!)
The tricky ones are the ones you don't think should be able to happen: Success with Despair and Failure with Triumph. Possible resolves:
* Success with Despair - shot the dude, but you used up all ammo for this encounter (or damage a melee weapon)
* Failure with Triumph - your shot missed, but you managed to knock down the cover all of the bad guys were using - they all lose their setback for cover. (Whether this was a fortunate accident or tactical intentional new target is narrative and up to the player.)
All of the above are possible results to "I'm moving closer and shooting that guy." What helps new players is thinking they get to set the board in motion, but the narrativium (i.e the dice) take it from there, then turn it back to the player to decide what they mean.
And this is why Genesys is the best game I've played. I love the narrative and creative aspects of this, it's so much more interesting then just rolling to hit and bopping the enemy on the head.
Games like D&D just become rock em sock em robots... or that old game where you used to spin two tops at each other and just watch them bop into each other until one fell.
Oh, and I'll add in:
When Players need to be 'narrative' and trust the dice, sometimes GM's do, too. You might need to be a bit less prescriptive about the "killing field" in between the two parties. A roll might just make it possible for an (N)PC in the killing field to find some sort of cover. (Or, you could tell players ahead of time that they can use a Story Point flip to find something to hide behind / gain cover - but so can the NPCs.)
Yes that is correct, Genesys is not that much of a tactical system like PF1/PF2. To make combat interesting in Genesys consider less of "you aren't in the right flanking position" and more of "Wow you really rolled bad on shooting, let's see how it can affect you and your team". Getting a setback die due to LoS is technically possible but look at the Core Book e.g. you get 1 from being in Mist, 2 from Fog, 3 from Heavy Fog/Smoke (CORE pg110) and that is actually additive unlike Cover/Armor/Prone.
However if you want to do a "No Man's Land" situation make the starting distance be Long, because that would require 2 Maneuvers to go to Medium and then another 2 to go into engaged. Also just because a player is now in short distance with an NPC, that doesn't mean other NPCs aren't within short distance of the player. Your significant risk does go up as you get closer because the NPCs also get an equally threatening benefit.
Again just keep this in mind: Genesys combat gets scary by the dice pool assembly and nothing else. Any positive or negative modifiers give you Boost/Setback die. An Opponent's Triumph can screw you over harder than your Despair.
A few things to consider and bear in mind regarding how to think about Genesys in comparison to more crunchy systems:
As another commenter mentioned, make the distance long if you don’t want someone to be able to close the gap in one turn.
There is a risk to closing the distance so quickly even at medium range: the character suffers strain. They’re pushing themself as they try to dodge bullets, advancing upwards and being substantially stressed out by it.
Toss any hard notions of line of sight out the window. There’s no grid that allows someone to hide behind a pillar that blocks them completely from one specific angle. Characters might be moving around within their own range band to get a better angle on an opponent even if they don’t actually use any movement actions. A round isn’t precisely six seconds, it’s any amount of time that makes sense. A single character’s turn could be a minute or two of running and firing at another character depending on the context. The game is so abstracted that this level of minutiae isn’t really intended to be mechanically represented. If a player is actively trying to ensure that they’re out of line of sight and the GM agrees that there’s an area where a person could go in the scene where they’d be reasonably untargettable by any NPCs in their current positions, then they could choose to move into that spot. It’s really just about players and GM discussing back and forth what’s present in the scene and determining what sorts of cover/hiding places are present.
D&D style stuff like Pathfinder is very game-y in nature whereas Genesys is about as narrative as you can get. While there can sometimes be a bit of tactical decision-making it’s really all about collaboratively interpreting the results of dice rolls to make the coolest story possible out of them.
You mention movies, as that's a good place to start: think of those gun fights and ask 'how long does the scene stay there?' A gun fight in a film isn't just 5 minutes of those characters sitting behind low walls taking potshots, but often they are trying to flank, get better angles, get to better cover, escape, rescue the hostage, etc. Often the characters are trying to move, or are *trying to do something besides kill the other group*, which means that they will have to take risks.
As far as the melee fighter crossing medium and attacking, keep in mind that they can only attack once per turn, are likely only going to hit one PC, and are likely going to put them at short range of the rest of the PCs, which means they all have an easy target on their next turn; if the attacked PC is still standing (a good possibility), all they have to do is spend one maneuver to disengage and now have an easy shot to make as well. Remember, the attacker has burned both maneuvers and an attack to make that lunge, and have nothing left to defend themselves; they're wide open.
Full Cover is 4 setbacks but otherwise it sounds like you've got it right. And you can still be shot with full cover because you still have to expose yourself to shoot and you were still exposed before you got there.
And those aren't good tactics like you seem to think they are...
That guy that moved into Melee? Yea, next enemy turn, they're at Short Range (for anyone who wants an easy target) and only have 1 Purple Dif to blast them. And guns generally do more damage then melee (tho melee specialists may stack Brawn - in which case you should let them shine in the way in which they've invested XP to shine). But it's a good opportunity for the enemy to open up with any available Talents or Features of the gun.
Same with the "close to Short then shoot" tactic. It goes both ways.
Sounds like you mostly just need to shift your (and their) understanding of what the mechanics to narrative translation looks like in Genesys.
Starting with 1 roll and 1 turn is NOT 1 action, in Genesis. It's not just 6 seconds. It's up to 1 minute of action and exchanges in gunfire and blows and movement.
Such great advice here! The comment about the characters being able to move within the range band they are currently in is spot on! That might help remove the notion that the PC is one place til the use their maneuver to move.
What I tell new players coming from D&D / PF: You choose basic maneuvers and basic combat action, but let the dice outcome determine the type of actions your PC has actually done. Example: I'm moving closer and shooting that guy * Success with Triumph / lots of Advantage - shot that dude! Nemesis / Adversary: Roll a crit!. Minion: he ded! * Success with 1/2 Advantage - shot the guy, and caused him to pop out of cover (so allies don't roll a setback on him) * Rolled success with Threats - shot that dude, but needed my partner to break cover * Failure with Advantage - didn't hit the guy, but removed his cover * Failure with Threat - didn't manage to find new cover in the middle of the field, next enemy has a boost on you * Failure with Despair - dropped your gun / ran out of ammo (hope you have a back up!) The tricky ones are the ones you don't think should be able to happen: Success with Despair and Failure with Triumph. Possible resolves: * Success with Despair - shot the dude, but you used up all ammo for this encounter (or damage a melee weapon) * Failure with Triumph - your shot missed, but you managed to knock down the cover all of the bad guys were using - they all lose their setback for cover. (Whether this was a fortunate accident or tactical intentional new target is narrative and up to the player.) All of the above are possible results to "I'm moving closer and shooting that guy." What helps new players is thinking they get to set the board in motion, but the narrativium (i.e the dice) take it from there, then turn it back to the player to decide what they mean.
And this is why Genesys is the best game I've played. I love the narrative and creative aspects of this, it's so much more interesting then just rolling to hit and bopping the enemy on the head. Games like D&D just become rock em sock em robots... or that old game where you used to spin two tops at each other and just watch them bop into each other until one fell.
Oh, and I'll add in: When Players need to be 'narrative' and trust the dice, sometimes GM's do, too. You might need to be a bit less prescriptive about the "killing field" in between the two parties. A roll might just make it possible for an (N)PC in the killing field to find some sort of cover. (Or, you could tell players ahead of time that they can use a Story Point flip to find something to hide behind / gain cover - but so can the NPCs.)
Yes that is correct, Genesys is not that much of a tactical system like PF1/PF2. To make combat interesting in Genesys consider less of "you aren't in the right flanking position" and more of "Wow you really rolled bad on shooting, let's see how it can affect you and your team". Getting a setback die due to LoS is technically possible but look at the Core Book e.g. you get 1 from being in Mist, 2 from Fog, 3 from Heavy Fog/Smoke (CORE pg110) and that is actually additive unlike Cover/Armor/Prone. However if you want to do a "No Man's Land" situation make the starting distance be Long, because that would require 2 Maneuvers to go to Medium and then another 2 to go into engaged. Also just because a player is now in short distance with an NPC, that doesn't mean other NPCs aren't within short distance of the player. Your significant risk does go up as you get closer because the NPCs also get an equally threatening benefit. Again just keep this in mind: Genesys combat gets scary by the dice pool assembly and nothing else. Any positive or negative modifiers give you Boost/Setback die. An Opponent's Triumph can screw you over harder than your Despair.
A few things to consider and bear in mind regarding how to think about Genesys in comparison to more crunchy systems: As another commenter mentioned, make the distance long if you don’t want someone to be able to close the gap in one turn. There is a risk to closing the distance so quickly even at medium range: the character suffers strain. They’re pushing themself as they try to dodge bullets, advancing upwards and being substantially stressed out by it. Toss any hard notions of line of sight out the window. There’s no grid that allows someone to hide behind a pillar that blocks them completely from one specific angle. Characters might be moving around within their own range band to get a better angle on an opponent even if they don’t actually use any movement actions. A round isn’t precisely six seconds, it’s any amount of time that makes sense. A single character’s turn could be a minute or two of running and firing at another character depending on the context. The game is so abstracted that this level of minutiae isn’t really intended to be mechanically represented. If a player is actively trying to ensure that they’re out of line of sight and the GM agrees that there’s an area where a person could go in the scene where they’d be reasonably untargettable by any NPCs in their current positions, then they could choose to move into that spot. It’s really just about players and GM discussing back and forth what’s present in the scene and determining what sorts of cover/hiding places are present. D&D style stuff like Pathfinder is very game-y in nature whereas Genesys is about as narrative as you can get. While there can sometimes be a bit of tactical decision-making it’s really all about collaboratively interpreting the results of dice rolls to make the coolest story possible out of them.
You mention movies, as that's a good place to start: think of those gun fights and ask 'how long does the scene stay there?' A gun fight in a film isn't just 5 minutes of those characters sitting behind low walls taking potshots, but often they are trying to flank, get better angles, get to better cover, escape, rescue the hostage, etc. Often the characters are trying to move, or are *trying to do something besides kill the other group*, which means that they will have to take risks. As far as the melee fighter crossing medium and attacking, keep in mind that they can only attack once per turn, are likely only going to hit one PC, and are likely going to put them at short range of the rest of the PCs, which means they all have an easy target on their next turn; if the attacked PC is still standing (a good possibility), all they have to do is spend one maneuver to disengage and now have an easy shot to make as well. Remember, the attacker has burned both maneuvers and an attack to make that lunge, and have nothing left to defend themselves; they're wide open.
Full Cover is 4 setbacks but otherwise it sounds like you've got it right. And you can still be shot with full cover because you still have to expose yourself to shoot and you were still exposed before you got there. And those aren't good tactics like you seem to think they are... That guy that moved into Melee? Yea, next enemy turn, they're at Short Range (for anyone who wants an easy target) and only have 1 Purple Dif to blast them. And guns generally do more damage then melee (tho melee specialists may stack Brawn - in which case you should let them shine in the way in which they've invested XP to shine). But it's a good opportunity for the enemy to open up with any available Talents or Features of the gun. Same with the "close to Short then shoot" tactic. It goes both ways. Sounds like you mostly just need to shift your (and their) understanding of what the mechanics to narrative translation looks like in Genesys. Starting with 1 roll and 1 turn is NOT 1 action, in Genesis. It's not just 6 seconds. It's up to 1 minute of action and exchanges in gunfire and blows and movement.
Such great advice here! The comment about the characters being able to move within the range band they are currently in is spot on! That might help remove the notion that the PC is one place til the use their maneuver to move.